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Thread: Realignment 2012 style?

  1. #1
    All-Interweb pied's Avatar
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    Default Realignment 2012 style?

    About last week there began to some rumblings about Florida State and maybe another team(Clemson) to the Big 12. Most just shrugged it off. Seeing a LOT more traffic on it, especially with the new ACC TV deal announcement yesterday.

    This may have some legs.

    Personally I like the ten team set up(although I would just as soon go back to having Nebraska/a$m/Missouri/Colorado). It makes a LOT of sense from a competition standpoint. Round robin in all sports/etc. BUt it does appear that being content and having/developing a nice sports league is not as important as other factors. That is crystal clear.

    From most logical perspectives adding FSU/Clemson makes little sense, but looking forward, it can make a lot of sense.

    Stay tuned I guess.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    I could see it happening but I'm not sure the thinking behind it other than TV rights money. One of the bigger points raised with the aggies going to the SEC was the travel would increase. Throw FSU and Clemson into the mix with Iowa State, Tech, Texas and it dramatically jumps the travel in the B12.

    How large is the media footprint of Clemson? I know FSU will be a huge get.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Might seem like a heartless move buuuuuut..

    Drop Iowa State (geographical) and TCU (enrollment) and pick up Clemson, GT, Clemson, and FSU and you are talking about a conference that is the traditional and geographical rival of the SEC. What do you think the TV rights would be like to that kind of a monster set up for both conferences? SEC + B12 would OWN college football in revenue with the conference rival history and the interconference rivalries.

    Clemson - USC
    Georgia - GT
    Florida - FSU
    UT - TAMU
    UT-ARK
    Kansas-Kentucky

    Im sure there are probably a few more I am forgetting.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin109 View Post
    I could see it happening but I'm not sure the thinking behind it other than TV rights money. One of the bigger points raised with the aggies going to the SEC was the travel would increase. Throw FSU and Clemson into the mix with Iowa State, Tech, Texas and it dramatically jumps the travel in the B12.

    How large is the media footprint of Clemson? I know FSU will be a huge get.
    Don't know. Obvioulsy Florida would be the bigger catch. I don't know how those areas are calculated. Do they get any of part of the no GA? NC? Really no clue. Whatever it would be would be a total add for the Big 12, unlike TCU was(in an existing market).

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    Don't know. Obvioulsy Florida would be the bigger catch. I don't know how those areas are calculated. Do they get any of part of the no GA? NC? Really no clue. Whatever it would be would be a total add for the Big 12, unlike TCU was(in an existing market).
    True. I really believe the B12 needs to pick a direction for expansion and stick with it. Either north for the midwest pick ups or east for the ACC guys. It can be done to keep old rivalries in tact and maintain more regional interest IF they pick up more than 1-2 in each direction.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Been kind of crazy the past few days. The Chairman of the Trustees or some crap, came out and BLASTED the ACC. Yesterday the University President wrote a pretty embarrasing article(for a Universtiy President).

    I want to assure you that any decision made about FSU athletics will be
    reasoned and thoughtful and based on athletics, finances and academics.
    Allow me to provide you with some of the issues we are facing:

    In support of a move are four basic factors argued by many alumni:

    1. The ACC is more basketball than it is football, and many of our alumni
    view us as more football oriented than the ACC
    2. The ACC is too North Carolina centric and the contract advantages
    basketball and hence advantages the North Carolina schools
    3. The Big 12 has some big football schools that match up with FSU
    4. The Big 12 contract (which actually isn't signed yet) is rumored to be
    $2.9M more per year than the ACC contract. We need this money to be
    competitive.

    But, in contrast:

    1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the
    blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share
    conference and this applies to football and to basketball - there is no
    preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier
    rights for women's basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by
    that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.

    2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
    part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
    considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say
    this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin - I watched the
    Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas
    would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it
    would be interesting to see the fan reaction.

    3. Much is being made of the extra $2.9M that the Big 12 contract (which
    hasn't been inked yet) gets over the ACC contract. Given that the Texas
    schools are expected to play each other (the Big 12 is at least as Texas
    centered than the ACC is North Carolina centered), the most likely
    scenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West
    Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and one
    more unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship
    game), we realize that our sports teams can no longer travel by bus to
    most games - the estimate is that the travel by plane required by FSU to
    be in the Big 12 appears to exceed the $2.9M difference in the contract -
    actually giving us fewer dollars than we have now to be competitive with
    the Big 12 teams, who obviously do not have to travel as far. Any
    renegotiated amount depends not just on FSU but the caliber of any other
    new team to the Big 12.

    4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
    these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue.

    5. We would lose the rivalry with University of Miami that does fill our
    stadium

    6. It will cost between $20M and $25M to leave the ACC - we have no idea
    where that money would come from. It would have to come from the Boosters
    which currently are unable to support our current University athletic
    budget, hence the 2% cut in that budget.

    7. The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is
    academically weaker - and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2%
    ($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from
    concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M)
    gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms
    of its successful future.

    I present these issues to you so that you realize that this is not so
    simple (not to mention that negotiations aren't even taking place). One
    of the few wise comments made in the blogosphere is that no one negotiates
    their future in the media. We can't afford to have conference affiliation
    be governed by emotion - it has to be based on a careful assessment of
    athletics, finances and academics. I assure you that every aspect of
    conference affiliation will be looked at by this institution, but it must
    be a reasoned decision.

    Eric Barron
    President

  7. #7
    All-Universe Austin109's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Northern Expansion:
    BYU
    Notre Dame
    Boise
    Houston

    All of these teams are stand alone solid pick ups with national interest and not just regional minus Houston. Houston is a power play to bring back the Houston market.


    Eastern Expansion:
    Georgia Tech
    Clemson
    FSU
    Southern Miss/Houston

    This set of teams brings some of the oldest rivalries with the SEC into the Big 12 where they can capitalize on the SEC's current position. All are solid pick ups but together they can represent a HUGE interconference rivalry as opposed to 1 on 1 team rivalries. Hate builds a lot of interest. Plus getting these teams that are already competing with less resources on equal footing just shifts the power to the Big 12.

    Only reason I say Houston is to reestablish old rivalries and recapture the Houston market since a lot of it left with the Aggies. Get Houston in a big conference again and build the interest and it serves to keep interest in the Big 12 while also getting one of the largest media markets in the country.

  8. #8
    All-Universe Austin109's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    Been kind of crazy the past few days. The Chairman of the Trustees or some crap, came out and BLASTED the ACC. Yesterday the University President wrote a pretty embarrasing article(for a Universtiy President).

    I want to assure you that any decision made about FSU athletics will be
    reasoned and thoughtful and based on athletics, finances and academics.
    Allow me to provide you with some of the issues we are facing:

    In support of a move are four basic factors argued by many alumni:

    1. The ACC is more basketball than it is football, and many of our alumni
    view us as more football oriented than the ACC
    2. The ACC is too North Carolina centric and the contract advantages
    basketball and hence advantages the North Carolina schools
    3. The Big 12 has some big football schools that match up with FSU
    4. The Big 12 contract (which actually isn't signed yet) is rumored to be
    $2.9M more per year than the ACC contract. We need this money to be
    competitive.

    But, in contrast:

    1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the
    blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share
    conference and this applies to football and to basketball - there is no
    preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier
    rights for women's basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by
    that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.

    2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
    part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
    considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say
    this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin - I watched the
    Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas
    would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it
    would be interesting to see the fan reaction.

    3. Much is being made of the extra $2.9M that the Big 12 contract (which
    hasn't been inked yet) gets over the ACC contract. Given that the Texas
    schools are expected to play each other (the Big 12 is at least as Texas
    centered than the ACC is North Carolina centered), the most likely
    scenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West
    Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and one
    more unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship
    game), we realize that our sports teams can no longer travel by bus to
    most games - the estimate is that the travel by plane required by FSU to
    be in the Big 12 appears to exceed the $2.9M difference in the contract -
    actually giving us fewer dollars than we have now to be competitive with
    the Big 12 teams, who obviously do not have to travel as far. Any
    renegotiated amount depends not just on FSU but the caliber of any other
    new team to the Big 12.

    4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
    these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue.

    5. We would lose the rivalry with University of Miami that does fill our
    stadium

    6. It will cost between $20M and $25M to leave the ACC - we have no idea
    where that money would come from. It would have to come from the Boosters
    which currently are unable to support our current University athletic
    budget, hence the 2% cut in that budget.

    7. The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is
    academically weaker - and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2%
    ($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from
    concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M)
    gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms
    of its successful future.

    I present these issues to you so that you realize that this is not so
    simple (not to mention that negotiations aren't even taking place). One
    of the few wise comments made in the blogosphere is that no one negotiates
    their future in the media. We can't afford to have conference affiliation
    be governed by emotion - it has to be based on a careful assessment of
    athletics, finances and academics. I assure you that every aspect of
    conference affiliation will be looked at by this institution, but it must
    be a reasoned decision.

    Eric Barron
    President

    I wouldn't really put that as an embarrassing article. I appreciate its honesty and insight in allowing a look at how things really look from inside. It puts the Seminole nation in a better position than TAMU and Mizzou fans were in.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin109 View Post
    I wouldn't really put that as an embarrassing article. I appreciate its honesty and insight in allowing a look at how things really look from inside. It puts the Seminole nation in a better position than TAMU and Mizzou fans were in.
    I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

    First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

    Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
    part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
    considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share







    In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.







    He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

    Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
    Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
    North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
    Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
    Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
    Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
    Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
    Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
    Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
    North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
    Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes





    He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






    Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

    the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

    4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
    these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue







    Then he throws out the academic card.

    The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


    Note - I do think there is merit to some of these concerns, well the ones that are not simply incorrect, but if my UNiversity President is sending out an email like this, I would certainly hope he would do it more profesionally.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    [QUOTE=pied;1974822]I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

    First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

    Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
    part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
    considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share







    In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.







    He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

    Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
    Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
    North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
    Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
    Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
    Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
    Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
    Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
    Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
    North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
    Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes





    He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






    Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

    the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

    4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
    these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue







    Then he throws out the academic card.

    The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


    FSU is a dump...if they want to move up in the world of football again, they are going to have to join a real football conference.

    They are at a disadvantage in a basketball conference, and need some SERIOUS facility upgrades. If im FSU i jump at the chance to play in the Big 12.

    Big 12 goes to 14 teams, set up a pod system or a SEC style cross division opponent to ensure big ticket games. I would honestly love nothing more then seeing Texas vs FSU....... This will also allow FSU to get a stronger foot hold in Florida that has been diminished to a degree with the gators rise.
    HOOK'EM
    OU SUX BALLZ

    FREE JOH and GOLDENBONES

  11. #11
    All-Interweb pied's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    So this new bowl deal puts four conferences out there. B1G/Pac12 wth the Rose Bowl and the Big 12/SEC with their new game. This has to impact teams not in those conference in regards to realignment I'd think. Especially with the new playoff discussion.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Good points. I get where you are coming from but looking at it from their perspective it isn't too hard to see how they came to these conclusions. Just a few things I noticed when looking at it. Not necessarily an argument 1 way or the other but how I'd imagine FSU is looking at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

    First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

    Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
    part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
    considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share







    In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.
    And was still listed as something each of them felt was still ran inappropriately. He is just listing what is being cited as part of the reason that they all left.


    He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

    Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
    Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
    North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
    Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
    Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
    Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
    Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
    Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
    Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
    North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
    Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes
    242h 46m round trip driving


    Baylor - 14 hours 40 minutes
    TCU - 14 hours 39 mins
    Tech - 19 hours 54 mins
    UT - 14 hours 40 mins
    Iowa State- 20 hours 9 mins
    Kansas State - 19 hours 4 mins
    Kansas - 17 hours 43 mins
    WVU - 14 hours 50 mins
    OU - 16 hours 49 mins
    OSU - 16 hours 44 mins

    338h 24 minutes round trip driving

    90 Hours more drive time seems significant to me.


    He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






    Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

    the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

    4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
    these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue

    And? They are in debt right now. He needs to consider ticket sales as a primary factor. Right now they are looking at this thing now as a way to get out of the red. I'd hope he would look at it like that.

    Then he throws out the academic card.

    The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


    Note - I do think there is merit to some of these concerns, well the ones that are not simply incorrect, but if my UNiversity President is sending out an email like this, I would certainly hope he would do it more profesionally.
    First and foremost they are a school. I'd imagine that academics would be one of their biggest concerns when you consider the likes of what they are leaving. Granted I don't think that the conference mates academics have anything to do with it all but it is something I'm sure the BOR and faculty are discussing.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin109 View Post
    Good points. I get where you are coming from but looking at it from their perspective it isn't too hard to see how they came to these conclusions. Just a few things I noticed when looking at it. Not necessarily an argument 1 way or the other but how I'd imagine FSU is looking at it.



    And was still listed as something each of them felt was still ran inappropriately. He is just listing what is being cited as part of the reason that they all left.



    242h 46m round trip driving


    Baylor - 14 hours 40 minutes
    TCU - 14 hours 39 mins
    Tech - 19 hours 54 mins
    UT - 14 hours 40 mins
    Iowa State- 20 hours 9 mins
    Kansas State - 19 hours 4 mins
    Kansas - 17 hours 43 mins
    WVU - 14 hours 50 mins
    OU - 16 hours 49 mins
    OSU - 16 hours 44 mins

    338h 24 minutes round trip driving

    90 Hours more drive time seems significant to me.





    And? They are in debt right now. He needs to consider ticket sales as a primary factor. Right now they are looking at this thing now as a way to get out of the red. I'd hope he would look at it like that.



    First and foremost they are a school. I'd imagine that academics would be one of their biggest concerns when you consider the likes of what they are leaving. Granted I don't think that the conference mates academics have anything to do with it all but it is something I'm sure the BOR and faculty are discussing.

    I understand the points, and agree with some/many/all, my point is that I don't want my University President calling out other schools in a letter. He/She may do it in a conference room, and probably should.

    If I were going to address the academic side, I'd say something like, "The faculty is very clear about keeping their relationship with great the great academic institutions of the ACC. "

    No reason to do it the other way, in my opinion.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    So this new bowl deal puts four conferences out there. B1G/Pac12 wth the Rose Bowl and the Big 12/SEC with their new game. This has to impact teams not in those conference in regards to realignment I'd think. Especially with the new playoff discussion.
    Thinking this is a PRETTY big deal right now. You have four conferences banded together right now.

    What does ND do? What do the teams in the ACC do?

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    Thinking this is a PRETTY big deal right now. You have four conferences banded together right now.

    What does ND do? What do the teams in the ACC do?
    Interesting points. With the bigger is better conference mentality and these team up's what I'd expect to see is:

    B1G gets the prize and lands ND. Regional, Academics, culturally relevant. Someone else fills the other spot. Not really sure who.

    PAC nabs Boise. Possibly Nevada/BYU as well. No one else is really a solid get for them in the area. I'd guess a roughly North v South divisional setup.

    Big12 takes Clemson and FSU. I'd expect them to start pushing for 2 more and GT and Louisville cement the SEC vs Big12 interest in a big way.

    SEC nabs VT and one of the NC schools.

    (GT v G) (FSU v UF) (Louis v Kentucky) (UT v TAMU) (SC v Clemson) (WVU v VT would happen very quickly I'd imagine) (Kentucky v Kansas)
    ^^ All of those would be large interest TV draws and big rivalries in all sports. Except maybe the KvK football.

    All the others scramble to stay relevant.


    Thats just how I'd see it all play out though given who has the money and who is worth said money.

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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    Quote Originally Posted by pied View Post
    I don't want my University President calling out other schools in a letter.
    This I agree with 100%. Like I said it is refreshing to actually hear a leader come out and say what we are all thinking but it is definitely NOT in FSU's best interest for him to speak like that so openly. On that I am with you fully.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Realignment 2012 style?

    OK - reviving this.

    ND has joined the ACC in all sports but football, bit will play six games a year with that conference.

    The B1G has added Maryland and Rutgers. Clearly both moves aren't about sports or tradition, simply TV sets. Of course the previous moves, Nebraska to the B1G, Utah/Colorado to the PAC, a$m/Missouri to the SEC, TCU/West Virgina(among others), were in large part about TV sets/contracts, but I can make some pretty good football/sports arguments for all of those moves.

    This is jsut getting dumb in my opinion. More to follow, and I'll talk a bit about scheduling but to me the realignment and impending playoffs are going to kill a good bit of the excitement of college football for me. Conferences simply are becoming loose TV revenue making alliances and nothing more.

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