Realignment 2012 style?

[pied]

About last week there began to some rumblings about Florida State and maybe another team(Clemson) to the Big 12. Most just shrugged it off. Seeing a LOT more traffic on it, especially with the new ACC TV deal announcement yesterday.

This may have some legs.

Personally I like the ten team set up(although I would just as soon go back to having Nebraska/a$m/Missouri/Colorado). It makes a LOT of sense from a competition standpoint. Round robin in all sports/etc. BUt it does appear that being content and having/developing a nice sports league is not as important as other factors. That is crystal clear.

From most logical perspectives adding FSU/Clemson makes little sense, but looking forward, it can make a lot of sense.

Stay tuned I guess.

[Austin109]

I could see it happening but I'm not sure the thinking behind it other than TV rights money. One of the bigger points raised with the aggies going to the SEC was the travel would increase. Throw FSU and Clemson into the mix with Iowa State, Tech, Texas and it dramatically jumps the travel in the B12.

How large is the media footprint of Clemson? I know FSU will be a huge get.

[Austin109]

Might seem like a heartless move buuuuuut..

Drop Iowa State (geographical) and TCU (enrollment) and pick up Clemson, GT, Clemson, and FSU and you are talking about a conference that is the traditional and geographical rival of the SEC. What do you think the TV rights would be like to that kind of a monster set up for both conferences? SEC + B12 would OWN college football in revenue with the conference rival history and the interconference rivalries.

Clemson - USC
Georgia - GT
Florida - FSU
UT - TAMU
UT-ARK
Kansas-Kentucky

Im sure there are probably a few more I am forgetting.

[pied]

I could see it happening but I'm not sure the thinking behind it other than TV rights money. One of the bigger points raised with the aggies going to the SEC was the travel would increase. Throw FSU and Clemson into the mix with Iowa State, Tech, Texas and it dramatically jumps the travel in the B12.

How large is the media footprint of Clemson? I know FSU will be a huge get.

Don't know. Obvioulsy Florida would be the bigger catch. I don't know how those areas are calculated. Do they get any of part of the no GA? NC? Really no clue. Whatever it would be would be a total add for the Big 12, unlike TCU was(in an existing market).

[Austin109]

Don't know. Obvioulsy Florida would be the bigger catch. I don't know how those areas are calculated. Do they get any of part of the no GA? NC? Really no clue. Whatever it would be would be a total add for the Big 12, unlike TCU was(in an existing market).

True. I really believe the B12 needs to pick a direction for expansion and stick with it. Either north for the midwest pick ups or east for the ACC guys. It can be done to keep old rivalries in tact and maintain more regional interest IF they pick up more than 1-2 in each direction.

[pied]

Been kind of crazy the past few days. The Chairman of the Trustees or some crap, came out and BLASTED the ACC. Yesterday the University President wrote a pretty embarrasing article(for a Universtiy President).

I want to assure you that any decision made about FSU athletics will be
reasoned and thoughtful and based on athletics, finances and academics.
Allow me to provide you with some of the issues we are facing:

In support of a move are four basic factors argued by many alumni:

1. The ACC is more basketball than it is football, and many of our alumni
view us as more football oriented than the ACC
2. The ACC is too North Carolina centric and the contract advantages
basketball and hence advantages the North Carolina schools
3. The Big 12 has some big football schools that match up with FSU
4. The Big 12 contract (which actually isn't signed yet) is rumored to be
$2.9M more per year than the ACC contract. We need this money to be
competitive.

But, in contrast:

1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the
blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share
conference and this applies to football and to basketball - there is no
preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier
rights for women's basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by
that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.

2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say
this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin - I watched the
Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas
would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it
would be interesting to see the fan reaction.

3. Much is being made of the extra $2.9M that the Big 12 contract (which
hasn't been inked yet) gets over the ACC contract. Given that the Texas
schools are expected to play each other (the Big 12 is at least as Texas
centered than the ACC is North Carolina centered), the most likely
scenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West
Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and one
more unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship
game), we realize that our sports teams can no longer travel by bus to
most games - the estimate is that the travel by plane required by FSU to
be in the Big 12 appears to exceed the $2.9M difference in the contract -
actually giving us fewer dollars than we have now to be competitive with
the Big 12 teams, who obviously do not have to travel as far. Any
renegotiated amount depends not just on FSU but the caliber of any other
new team to the Big 12.

4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue.

5. We would lose the rivalry with University of Miami that does fill our
stadium

6. It will cost between $20M and $25M to leave the ACC - we have no idea
where that money would come from. It would have to come from the Boosters
which currently are unable to support our current University athletic
budget, hence the 2% cut in that budget.

7. The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is
academically weaker - and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2%
($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from
concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M)
gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms
of its successful future.

I present these issues to you so that you realize that this is not so
simple (not to mention that negotiations aren't even taking place). One
of the few wise comments made in the blogosphere is that no one negotiates
their future in the media. We can't afford to have conference affiliation
be governed by emotion - it has to be based on a careful assessment of
athletics, finances and academics. I assure you that every aspect of
conference affiliation will be looked at by this institution, but it must
be a reasoned decision.

Eric Barron
President

[Austin109]

Northern Expansion:
BYU
Notre Dame
Boise
Houston

All of these teams are stand alone solid pick ups with national interest and not just regional minus Houston. Houston is a power play to bring back the Houston market.


Eastern Expansion:
Georgia Tech
Clemson
FSU
Southern Miss/Houston

This set of teams brings some of the oldest rivalries with the SEC into the Big 12 where they can capitalize on the SEC's current position. All are solid pick ups but together they can represent a HUGE interconference rivalry as opposed to 1 on 1 team rivalries. Hate builds a lot of interest. Plus getting these teams that are already competing with less resources on equal footing just shifts the power to the Big 12.

Only reason I say Houston is to reestablish old rivalries and recapture the Houston market since a lot of it left with the Aggies. Get Houston in a big conference again and build the interest and it serves to keep interest in the Big 12 while also getting one of the largest media markets in the country.

[Austin109]

Been kind of crazy the past few days. The Chairman of the Trustees or some crap, came out and BLASTED the ACC. Yesterday the University President wrote a pretty embarrasing article(for a Universtiy President).

I want to assure you that any decision made about FSU athletics will be
reasoned and thoughtful and based on athletics, finances and academics.
Allow me to provide you with some of the issues we are facing:

In support of a move are four basic factors argued by many alumni:

1. The ACC is more basketball than it is football, and many of our alumni
view us as more football oriented than the ACC
2. The ACC is too North Carolina centric and the contract advantages
basketball and hence advantages the North Carolina schools
3. The Big 12 has some big football schools that match up with FSU
4. The Big 12 contract (which actually isn't signed yet) is rumored to be
$2.9M more per year than the ACC contract. We need this money to be
competitive.

But, in contrast:

1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the
blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share
conference and this applies to football and to basketball - there is no
preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier
rights for women's basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by
that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.

2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say
this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin - I watched the
Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas
would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it
would be interesting to see the fan reaction.

3. Much is being made of the extra $2.9M that the Big 12 contract (which
hasn't been inked yet) gets over the ACC contract. Given that the Texas
schools are expected to play each other (the Big 12 is at least as Texas
centered than the ACC is North Carolina centered), the most likely
scenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West
Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and one
more unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship
game), we realize that our sports teams can no longer travel by bus to
most games - the estimate is that the travel by plane required by FSU to
be in the Big 12 appears to exceed the $2.9M difference in the contract -
actually giving us fewer dollars than we have now to be competitive with
the Big 12 teams, who obviously do not have to travel as far. Any
renegotiated amount depends not just on FSU but the caliber of any other
new team to the Big 12.

4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue.

5. We would lose the rivalry with University of Miami that does fill our
stadium

6. It will cost between $20M and $25M to leave the ACC - we have no idea
where that money would come from. It would have to come from the Boosters
which currently are unable to support our current University athletic
budget, hence the 2% cut in that budget.

7. The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is
academically weaker - and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2%
($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from
concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M)
gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms
of its successful future.

I present these issues to you so that you realize that this is not so
simple (not to mention that negotiations aren't even taking place). One
of the few wise comments made in the blogosphere is that no one negotiates
their future in the media. We can't afford to have conference affiliation
be governed by emotion - it has to be based on a careful assessment of
athletics, finances and academics. I assure you that every aspect of
conference affiliation will be looked at by this institution, but it must
be a reasoned decision.

Eric Barron
President

I wouldn't really put that as an embarrassing article. I appreciate its honesty and insight in allowing a look at how things really look from inside. It puts the Seminole nation in a better position than TAMU and Mizzou fans were in.

[pied]

I wouldn't really put that as an embarrassing article. I appreciate its honesty and insight in allowing a look at how things really look from inside. It puts the Seminole nation in a better position than TAMU and Mizzou fans were in.

I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share






In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.







He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes





He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue






Then he throws out the academic card.

The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


Note - I do think there is merit to some of these concerns, well the ones that are not simply incorrect, but if my UNiversity President is sending out an email like this, I would certainly hope he would do it more profesionally.

[FRS90]

[QUOTE=pied;1974822]I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share






In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.







He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes





He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue






Then he throws out the academic card.

The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


FSU is a dump...if they want to move up in the world of football again, they are going to have to join a real football conference.

They are at a disadvantage in a basketball conference, and need some SERIOUS facility upgrades. If im FSU i jump at the chance to play in the Big 12.

Big 12 goes to 14 teams, set up a pod system or a SEC style cross division opponent to ensure big ticket games. I would honestly love nothing more then seeing Texas vs FSU....... This will also allow FSU to get a stronger foot hold in Florida that has been diminished to a degree with the gators rise.

[pied]

So this new bowl deal puts four conferences out there. B1G/Pac12 wth the Rose Bowl and the Big 12/SEC with their new game. This has to impact teams not in those conference in regards to realignment I'd think. Especially with the new playoff discussion.

[Austin109]

Good points. I get where you are coming from but looking at it from their perspective it isn't too hard to see how they came to these conclusions. Just a few things I noticed when looking at it. Not necessarily an argument 1 way or the other but how I'd imagine FSU is looking at it.

I think there are likely ways to do this without first being wrong and second calling out other schools.

First, the Big XII now has equal revenue sharing for tier 1 and tier 2 rights.

Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in
part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has
considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share






In addition, each and every one of those schools voted for the unequal revenue sharing every time they had the opportunity.

And was still listed as something each of them felt was still ran inappropriately. He is just listing what is being cited as part of the reason that they all left.

He mentioned travel costs. Below is the list of drive times by car from Florida State to the rest of the ACC?(copy/paste)

Clemson - 6 hours 47 minutes
Wake Forest - 9 hours 34 minutes
North Carolina State - 10 hours 8 minute
Boston College - 22 hours 31 minutes
Maryland - 14 hours 41 minutes
Virginia Tech - 11 hours 3 minutes
Virginia - 12 hours 53 minutes
Georgia Tech - 4 hours 47 minutes
Miami - 7 hours 54 minutes
North Carolina - 10 hours 34 minutes
Duke - 10 hours 30 minutes

242h 46m round trip driving


Baylor - 14 hours 40 minutes
TCU - 14 hours 39 mins
Tech - 19 hours 54 mins
UT - 14 hours 40 mins
Iowa State- 20 hours 9 mins
Kansas State - 19 hours 4 mins
Kansas - 17 hours 43 mins
WVU - 14 hours 50 mins
OU - 16 hours 49 mins
OSU - 16 hours 44 mins

338h 24 minutes round trip driving

90 Hours more drive time seems significant to me.

He guesses about what a possible future division set up might look like.






Second he called out several schools specifically for not being fans that would travel.

the most likelyscenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and onemore unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship...

4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of
these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue

And? They are in debt right now. He needs to consider ticket sales as a primary factor. Right now they are looking at this thing now as a way to get out of the red. I'd hope he would look at it like that.

Then he throws out the academic card.

The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker ...


Note - I do think there is merit to some of these concerns, well the ones that are not simply incorrect, but if my UNiversity President is sending out an email like this, I would certainly hope he would do it more profesionally.

First and foremost they are a school. I'd imagine that academics would be one of their biggest concerns when you consider the likes of what they are leaving. Granted I don't think that the conference mates academics have anything to do with it all but it is something I'm sure the BOR and faculty are discussing.

[pied]

Good points. I get where you are coming from but looking at it from their perspective it isn't too hard to see how they came to these conclusions. Just a few things I noticed when looking at it. Not necessarily an argument 1 way or the other but how I'd imagine FSU is looking at it.



And was still listed as something each of them felt was still ran inappropriately. He is just listing what is being cited as part of the reason that they all left.



242h 46m round trip driving


Baylor - 14 hours 40 minutes
TCU - 14 hours 39 mins
Tech - 19 hours 54 mins
UT - 14 hours 40 mins
Iowa State- 20 hours 9 mins
Kansas State - 19 hours 4 mins
Kansas - 17 hours 43 mins
WVU - 14 hours 50 mins
OU - 16 hours 49 mins
OSU - 16 hours 44 mins

338h 24 minutes round trip driving

90 Hours more drive time seems significant to me.





And? They are in debt right now. He needs to consider ticket sales as a primary factor. Right now they are looking at this thing now as a way to get out of the red. I'd hope he would look at it like that.



First and foremost they are a school. I'd imagine that academics would be one of their biggest concerns when you consider the likes of what they are leaving. Granted I don't think that the conference mates academics have anything to do with it all but it is something I'm sure the BOR and faculty are discussing.

I understand the points, and agree with some/many/all, my point is that I don't want my University President calling out other schools in a letter. He/She may do it in a conference room, and probably should.

If I were going to address the academic side, I'd say something like, "The faculty is very clear about keeping their relationship with great the great academic institutions of the ACC. "

No reason to do it the other way, in my opinion.

[pied]

So this new bowl deal puts four conferences out there. B1G/Pac12 wth the Rose Bowl and the Big 12/SEC with their new game. This has to impact teams not in those conference in regards to realignment I'd think. Especially with the new playoff discussion.

Thinking this is a PRETTY big deal right now. You have four conferences banded together right now.

What does ND do? What do the teams in the ACC do?

[Austin109]

Thinking this is a PRETTY big deal right now. You have four conferences banded together right now.

What does ND do? What do the teams in the ACC do?

Interesting points. With the bigger is better conference mentality and these team up's what I'd expect to see is:

B1G gets the prize and lands ND. Regional, Academics, culturally relevant. Someone else fills the other spot. Not really sure who.

PAC nabs Boise. Possibly Nevada/BYU as well. No one else is really a solid get for them in the area. I'd guess a roughly North v South divisional setup.

Big12 takes Clemson and FSU. I'd expect them to start pushing for 2 more and GT and Louisville cement the SEC vs Big12 interest in a big way.

SEC nabs VT and one of the NC schools.

(GT v G) (FSU v UF) (Louis v Kentucky) (UT v TAMU) (SC v Clemson) (WVU v VT would happen very quickly I'd imagine) (Kentucky v Kansas)
^^ All of those would be large interest TV draws and big rivalries in all sports. Except maybe the KvK football.

All the others scramble to stay relevant.


Thats just how I'd see it all play out though given who has the money and who is worth said money.

[Austin109]

I don't want my University President calling out other schools in a letter.

This I agree with 100%. Like I said it is refreshing to actually hear a leader come out and say what we are all thinking but it is definitely NOT in FSU's best interest for him to speak like that so openly. On that I am with you fully.

[pied]

OK - reviving this.

ND has joined the ACC in all sports but football, bit will play six games a year with that conference.

The B1G has added Maryland and Rutgers. Clearly both moves aren't about sports or tradition, simply TV sets. Of course the previous moves, Nebraska to the B1G, Utah/Colorado to the PAC, a$m/Missouri to the SEC, TCU/West Virgina(among others), were in large part about TV sets/contracts, but I can make some pretty good football/sports arguments for all of those moves.

This is jsut getting dumb in my opinion. More to follow, and I'll talk a bit about scheduling but to me the realignment and impending playoffs are going to kill a good bit of the excitement of college football for me. Conferences simply are becoming loose TV revenue making alliances and nothing more.