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Thread: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

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    Default Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    I try to follow Texas HS football as closely as any Floridian can. However, my insight and knowledge into certain programs is obviously limited.

    So, my big question, which is sure to garner many replies, is...

    ...How on earth does Southlake Carroll HS go from being SO SO dominant in the State of Texas...to...well...a rather mediocre team that could be considered to be on the down slide?

    Please educate me!

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    coaching...and teams figuring out the offense.
    "We had a great offense. Some people say we were one- dimensional by only running the ball, but if it's not broke, don't fix it, and if they can't stop the run, we're going to run it down your throat." -Adam Taylor, RB Katy

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    No body stays on top forever.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Brett Shipp

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

    I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GBMonster76 View Post
    Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

    I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.
    ..and a decline in talent pool but I have faith that SLC will climb back up. Nobody stays on top forever. SLC was a powerhouse in 3A and 4A before becoming a 5A school. It spans over 25 years so yes they will have some rebuilding years.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ray1301 View Post
    ..and a decline in talent pool but I have faith that SLC will climb back up. Nobody stays on top forever. SLC was a powerhouse in 3A and 4A before becoming a 5A school. It spans over 25 years so yes they will have some rebuilding years.
    I would say TALENT more than coaching.

    If we are going to call Carroll mediocre now then one has to do the same with Dodges coaching career. What's he up to now, 10 losing seasons compared to only 7 winning seasons as a HC?

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GBMonster76 View Post
    Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

    I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.
    There were several programs that were pretty dominant, while SLC was doing their thing (e.g. Katy, North Shore, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill... just to name a few!). SLC lost their #1 asset... Todd Dodge. The minute he hit the door, the program began to slide. Not knocking Wasson, but SLC has never been the same since TD left for UNT. The spread, the defense, the attitude, and much more were all different. Now, however, there are other communities that developed the spread attack and it's beginning to show (e.g. Lake Travis and Allen) dividends.

    Simply put, coaching means a ton more at the HS level than at the collegiate and NFL level. Why? because the student-athletes in HS are still - for the most part - far under-developed. You can win, athletically, in college (e.g. FSU, Miami, Florida, Texas, USC, Oklahoma, etc.) but not so much in HS (e.g. Dallas Carter, East Texas teams like John Tyler, Longview, North Shore, Skyline, Desoto... all teams that have had hoss of athletic teams, in the last 10 years and been ousted in the playoffs). Don't take this the wrong way, but it's almost the opposite in Florida. Why? Because most great Florida teams are essentially All-Star teams, comprised of a TON of D1 athletes. Here, in Texas, it's more about coaching, and community guidance than just plain athleticism... as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD annually potrays.

    SLC went through a period of being the new kid on the block w/ a HC who had an enormous appetite for destroying opponents and a community that believed in him and what he was doing. When he left, the backbone of what made SLC so special left with him. Not many SLC'ers will admit it, but it's the truth. I suspect if he ever came back, SLC would rise again.

    Outside of all that I've said, even if TD never came back, SLC is still going to be a contender for a good playoff run, annually or bi-annually. Great pedigree in that community.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Like the economy HS teams have their ups and downs. Look at Odessa Permian, Plano Wildcats, South Lake Carroll and it may even happen to Trinity some year(s). It's just the way it is and for all of the other reasons already stated.

    SLC will be back. Plano has had some good years the past 2 or 3 but were down for quite a while bfore that. After their all world player Rex Burkhead left a couple of years ago, that hurt and after building Plano West Senior High (3rd Sr HS in Plano) it spread the talent pool out.

    This is a growing areal, even in this sucky economy and new HS's are being built still and kids get shuffled of to new schools. That's one of the major reasons right there.

    That's not so much the case for Carroll but I do agree that it is because of the coaching change and many, many of the horses they had aren't there anymore.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

    I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

    The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

    This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

    Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThEgReAtOnE View Post
    There were several programs that were pretty dominant, while SLC was doing their thing (e.g. Katy, North Shore, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill... just to name a few!). SLC lost their #1 asset... Todd Dodge. The minute he hit the door, the program began to slide. Not knocking Wasson, but SLC has never been the same since TD left for UNT. The spread, the defense, the attitude, and much more were all different. Now, however, there are other communities that developed the spread attack and it's beginning to show (e.g. Lake Travis and Allen) dividends.

    Simply put, coaching means a ton more at the HS level than at the collegiate and NFL level. Why? because the student-athletes in HS are still - for the most part - far under-developed. You can win, athletically, in college (e.g. FSU, Miami, Florida, Texas, USC, Oklahoma, etc.) but not so much in HS (e.g. Dallas Carter, East Texas teams like John Tyler, Longview, North Shore, Skyline, Desoto... all teams that have had hoss of athletic teams, in the last 10 years and been ousted in the playoffs). Don't take this the wrong way, but it's almost the opposite in Florida. Why? Because most great Florida teams are essentially All-Star teams, comprised of a TON of D1 athletes. Here, in Texas, it's more about coaching, and community guidance than just plain athleticism... as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD annually potrays.

    SLC went through a period of being the new kid on the block w/ a HC who had an enormous appetite for destroying opponents and a community that believed in him and what he was doing. When he left, the backbone of what made SLC so special left with him. Not many SLC'ers will admit it, but it's the truth. I suspect if he ever came back, SLC would rise again.

    Outside of all that I've said, even if TD never came back, SLC is still going to be a contender for a good playoff run, annually or bi-annually. Great pedigree in that community.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KT2000 View Post
    I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

    I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

    The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

    This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

    Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Defense - It's the most glaring decline.

    No Riley Dodge. No Chase. No McElroy. They don't come around that often.

    Spread offense - Every defense in Texas practices against it now.

    All in all, I'd say it's 75% talent or lack of it. 25% Coaching.

    There'll eventually be one year when the talent and coaching will align perfectly. I would not worry about it. They'll be ok.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Well...it's just a few more months before Todd Dodge is back at Southlake Carroll anyway.

    North Texas is going nowhere this year, and Todd Dodge will be let go.

    Which, of course, after Southlake Carroll has another mediocre year will mean...

    DODGE IS BACK AT SLC!

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KT2000 View Post
    I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

    I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

    The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

    This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

    Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.
    as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

    i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.
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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonsdaddy View Post
    as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

    i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.
    No doubt the man had a great run at Carroll but why was it only Carroll that he saw success? He never enjoyed it at Yoe or Smith or FRidge or UNT. I firmly believe the kids he had to work with at Carroll made TD into the legend he became not the other way around. He had an unGodly amount of talent at his hands to work with and it paid big dividends for him

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Before you know it, SLC will rise again, and take on everyone like they used to. DFW misses that kind of offense they had, and Im sure here soon, they will have a a group of kids come up, and take the focus away from the questionable coaching, and take upon themselves to give us an Air-Show.

    Although we need a good running team to help us take care of these new offenses popping everywhere. How would they look as a power running team???

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by twcpfan1 View Post
    Spread offense - Every defense in Texas practices against it now.
    Nobody runs it like Carroll did. I haven't seen anyone close. Attitude is a big part of this game and that is what Dodge gave Carroll.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    The primary reason has to be the coaching. Program stend to rise and fall with their coaching. Abilene, Arlington Bowie and Cedar Hill are programs that were average to bad for decades - the right group of coaches came in and now they're on top most years. When their coaches leave, they will have to find someone just as good or they will fall off again as well.

    As to whether TD comes back to Carroll - I doubt if he'd want to. I said it here when he left that he needed to be a college coordinator first and was roundly booed down by the Carroll fans. I have once again been proven right. He STILL needs to go somewhere and be a coordinator.

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    Default Re: Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfan View Post
    No doubt the man had a great run at Carroll but why was it only Carroll that he saw success? He never enjoyed it at Yoe or Smith or FRidge or UNT. I firmly believe the kids he had to work with at Carroll made TD into the legend he became not the other way around. He had an unGodly amount of talent at his hands to work with and it paid big dividends for him
    his talent was very good, maybe great, for a suburbian school. it was probably better than the d-1 #s prove early on, as several on the 02 team might well have been d-1 had they been in year 4 not year 1. but if talent alone was to explain td/slc's success, why didn't more talent rich schools of which there were many, not win a single title? you know the answer.
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