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Thread: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

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    Default Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    I know a defense should be based about the players, however Madison likes to stick more towards the 4-3 and mould the players into that system.

    Now they do change the system a little bit to fit the players, but everyone knows we run a 4-3.

    What are some known defenses that can utilize good Secondary?
    and what are some weaknesses and strengths of the 4-3?

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    I think the main strength is that it gives you a downhill, agressive approach up front. It can obviously be very good against the run because of that. I've always liked the Miami Hurricanes' version of the 4-3. Fast and physical at the same time. I consider the 4-3 the defensive version of the I formation. It gives you some of everything personell wise, and a nice bread and butter look overall.

    The game is getting faster and more teams, at all levels, are moving to just three down linemen in a 3-4 or the increasingly popular 3-3 in order to better match up with spread teams. LBs have become more DB like. Even at the pro level, LBs are getting smaller in some respects. Just look at DeMeco Ryans at Mike backer in the Texans' 4-3. No one would have imagined he'd play that spot leading up to and during the draft. I think Ryans will carry a pretty big influence on what teams look for in the draft in an LB from now on after the success he had as a rookie.

    In high school especially, it's tough for many schools to find the players to fill out a 4-3 on the defensive line so I'd say that's a definite weakness. True quality at defensive end is hard to find at any level of the game.

    I've noticed 4-3 secondaries generally take the same agressive approach their front does. Using the Hurricane example again, they've always played an outstanding Cover 2 Man scheme. It's allowed their corners the freedom to cover aggressively, but still receive help over the top from the safeties. They've always recruited very rangy and fast LBs to help allow their secondaries to play this style, so the safeties aren't always having to worry about staying up to help with run support. Miami's definitely helped write the book on how to effectively play a 4-3 in my opinion.

    At the HS level, it seems like it'd be easier to use a 3-4 or 3-3 just because those alignments better fit the kind of player being produced today in most places. I think both of those fronts help the secondary because they give more flexibility with coverage options. I don't think there is one right answer for everyone. It all depends on what the coaches can best teach, the players and the competition.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    The weakness of the 4-3 is the weakside "bubble." Vs the 4-3 the first thing you do is align in twins on the weak side to see if they walk the W backer out or adjust with the secondary. If the backer walks, run weakside. If the secondary adjusts, throw or run strong. Also, the conventional Cover 2 leaves a large hole behind the corner that is difficult for most HS safties to get to. (Why many schools base out of Cover 4 now.) Versus the spread the LB will almost always walk or be replaced by a DB.

    The strength of the 4-3 is its multiplicity...it adjusts to almost everything(TE trips being the exception) and all coverages can be played behind it. Also, the number and variations of zone and man blitzes available is great.

    The 4-2-5 is a variation that sprung from the "nickel" coverage (xtra DB) and the split defense with its OLB or 8Backers. The 4-2-5 version is the favored vs the spread.

    Hope this helps a little.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by MavericksOnTheAttack View Post
    I know a defense should be based about the players, however Madison likes to stick more towards the 4-3 and mould the players into that system.

    Now they do change the system a little bit to fit the players, but everyone knows we run a 4-3.

    What are some known defenses that can utilize good Secondary?
    and what are some weaknesses and strengths of the 4-3?
    4-3 is a good run defense...and if you have the talent...you can be good for pass...i love the defense Katy and Cedar Hill used this year...mix between the 3-3 and 5-1...strange but very good!

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Man View Post
    The weakness of the 4-3 is the weakside "bubble." Vs the 4-3 the first thing you do is align in twins on the weak side to see if they walk the W backer out or adjust with the secondary. If the backer walks, run weakside. If the secondary adjusts, throw or run strong. Also, the conventional Cover 2 leaves a large hole behind the corner that is difficult for most HS safties to get to. (Why many schools base out of Cover 4 now.) Versus the spread the LB will almost always walk or be replaced by a DB.

    The strength of the 4-3 is its multiplicity...it adjusts to almost everything(TE trips being the exception) and all coverages can be played behind it. Also, the number and variations of zone and man blitzes available is great.

    The 4-2-5 is a variation that sprung from the "nickel" coverage (xtra DB) and the split defense with its OLB or 8Backers. The 4-2-5 version is the favored vs the spread.

    Hope this helps a little.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    The defense that has been most successful against spread teams is the 3-2-6
    Westlake did it against SLC. All teams that have had success against SLC have used this defense.

    The weakness of the 43 defense is of course the pass coverage -
    Versus the spread, you are asking the Sam and Will backers to cover an inside receiver which then makes you vulnerable to the run with just your Mike backer and 4 down lineman.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    in HS it is hard to start rotating personell packages. the 4-3 usualy puts your best athletes on the field if you are facing a spread you outside backers are probably you best options as far as any nickle or dime back go. at SLC we rarely took out a LB in favor of a nickle back. the LB was just bumped back to safety and the S rolled down or the LB bumped out to cover the slot. this is typicall of most high schools. many times there is a D-Line rotation. this allowy you to play about 6 guys in the 4 linemen spots (fresh legs). so in highschool the pass soft spot in the 4-3. the problem is a true rushing team say ET can exploit you if you have CB's playing safety. typically your safety is you best option for a 4th LB as well. it just comes down to the fact that the 4-3 is best suited for highschool athletes and allows the coaches to just move the same 11 guys aroud and get a 4-4 or a 4-2. versatility is the name of the game.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by SLC DRAGON View Post
    in HS it is hard to start rotating personell packages. the 4-3 usualy puts your best athletes on the field if you are facing a spread you outside backers are probably you best options as far as any nickle or dime back go. at SLC we rarely took out a LB in favor of a nickle back. the LB was just bumped back to safety and the S rolled down or the LB bumped out to cover the slot. this is typicall of most high schools. many times there is a D-Line rotation. this allowy you to play about 6 guys in the 4 linemen spots (fresh legs). so in highschool the pass soft spot in the 4-3. the problem is a true rushing team say ET can exploit you if you have CB's playing safety. typically your safety is you best option for a 4th LB as well. it just comes down to the fact that the 4-3 is best suited for highschool athletes and allows the coaches to just move the same 11 guys aroud and get a 4-4 or a 4-2. versatility is the name of the game.
    Excellent points. Personnel plays a major key to what D you can run.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by CFlb38 08 View Post
    4-3 is a good run defense...and if you have the talent...you can be good for pass...i love the defense Katy and Cedar Hill used this year...mix between the 3-3 and 5-1...strange but very good!
    Katy's base defense is the 3-4. I like the 4-3 better because you can pressure the QB better.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Of course you can pressure the in 4-3 defense. It is not the best pressure D.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Yeah, with the 4-3 you have to walk the W and S lb's out to cover against the spread. But it is a solid fundamental defense that gives you versatility depending on your personnel. In high school you have to work with what you have. If you don't have many linebacker types, it's ok, you can't take "tweeners", half secondary and half backer types which a lot of high schools have. As long as you have a true Mike lb it can be effective. I like having a 4 man front because you have that extra lineman to cause interference and keep offensive lineman off your backers. With a 3 man front it makes it easier for offensive linemen to get to the second level.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    If you look at the 4-3 from a chalk board perspective it looks easy to block. What makes it work in reality is the fact that the center can't block the middle line backer. The free middle linebacker gums up the running game. Great general purpose defense hard to run against, hard to throw on it.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    The main problem I have with the 4-3 is the difficulty it can have covering sideline to sideline, especially at the high school level. Not only are we seeing an increase in the number of teams running spread offense, we are seeing a growing trend of schools employing spread option offense like the one Texas employed with Vince Young and like the one you see from Florida and West Virginia. The 4-3 is not as well equipped to handle such offenses unless it features tremendous speed at the OLB positions.

    The 3-4 defense came about in large part as way to stop option offenses. As the old option offenses faded, so did the advantages presented by the 3-4. However, as the spread offenses have begun to stretch the field and as spread option offenses have begun to stretch the field with horizontal runs, it's put more and more pressure on the D line and that is why so many are switching to 3 man fronts. It simply gives you more speed on the perimeter and more speed and bodies in the middle of the field to defend the short pass.

    What I like about the 3-4 defense and why I prefer it to the 4-3 is because of it's ability to disquise the pass rush. With a 4-3, unless it is a zone blitz, the opposing offense knows they are getting a 4 man rush from the line and the QB can read for a blitz and go from there. With a 3-4 though, the 4th pass rusher is an unknown. The 4th pass rusher could come from any one of the LB positions or it may not come at all so a QB has a lot more to do pre-snap and the more that has to be read pre-snap, the greater the chance a mistake is made. Where Wade Phillips was so successful in San Diego was his ability to wreak havoc on the QB by showing multiple looks. When you have 4 LBs, it's a lot easier to disguise blitzes and keep the opposing O-line on their toes.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    weaknesses of any team with a Double T on the helmet, in attempting to execute a defensive responsibility, would have to begin with lack of pass coverage, complemented by a 3 man rush in the face of the worst football launching system since Garo Yepremian, and completed with a comprehensive lack of tackling ability. they have shown the ability to decimate any legitimate chance at stopping the opposing offensive charge, 4-3, or otherwise.

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    i would say its not about the defense you run it your execution and talent

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerHat View Post
    If you look at the 4-3 from a chalk board perspective it looks easy to block. What makes it work in reality is the fact that the center can't block the middle line backer. The free middle linebacker gums up the running game. Great general purpose defense hard to run against, hard to throw on it.

    If you run a zone blocking scheme on the OL it will correct this.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    Quote Originally Posted by MavericksOnTheAttack View Post
    I know a defense should be based about the players, however Madison likes to stick more towards the 4-3 and mould the players into that system.

    Now they do change the system a little bit to fit the players, but everyone knows we run a 4-3.

    What are some known defenses that can utilize good Secondary?
    and what are some weaknesses and strengths of the 4-3?
    The weaknesses and strengths of the 4-3 may depend to some degree on how you run it. We run it as a reading defense. The strength of the defense is that it allows players to get into position and read. We preach patience. Don't rush to a spot and then be in the wrong spot. The weakness of this style of defense is that a disciplined team can pound you for 3 or 4 yards every time and drive down the field. However most high-school teams are not disciplined and well coached enough to drive all the way down the field like that more than once or maybe twice per game.
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    i read the 4-3 defense gives you better pressure...the 3-4 is better for pressure because the o never knows where ur coming from...the 4-3 is good if you have two inside tackles that can control the line and a MLB that can run sideline to sideline...but as stated earlier your kids determine what defense u can you

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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    I feel the majority of hs teams would be better suited with a 3-4 set up due primarily to the fact most teams would have a larger amount of mid size fast guys as opposed to a minimum two hogs in the gut as you state. It's a personnel thing as noted prior.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2smooth07 View Post
    i read the 4-3 defense gives you better pressure...the 3-4 is better for pressure because the o never knows where ur coming from...the 4-3 is good if you have two inside tackles that can control the line and a MLB that can run sideline to sideline...but as stated earlier your kids determine what defense u can you
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    Default Re: Weaknesses on the 4-3 Defense (Madison)

    3-4 FTW. It gets to be very confusing for the offense. And most top NFL defenses run it. Get a beast pass-rushing OLB and your set.
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