Schools Academics

[friendswood72]

How many think the Top 10% Rule is ridiculous? I think it is rediculous because in some schools you can have a 97-98 GPA and not be in the top 10% (and have AP classes)! Friendswood is one of those schools. I'm not ragging on La Marque because everyone there knows that their school isn't Top Tier in academics, but they could be #13 in their class, get a low score of 1000 on SAT and go anywhere they want pretty much! That is so stupid!

[dragons08]

How many think the Top 10% Rule is ridiculous? I think it is rediculous because in some schools you can have a 97-98 GPA and not be in the top 10% (and have AP classes)! Friendswood is one of those schools. I'm not ragging on La Marque because everyone there knows that their school isn't Top Tier in academics, but they could be #13 in their class, get a low score of 1000 on SAT and go anywhere they want pretty much! That is so stupid!
yup its pretty bogus, a lot of kids here have tremounds grades but arent top 10, i hope they get rid of this rule, it hurts many southlake kids and i guess the same could be said for driendswood, like you said, they have those 99's, 98's, and stuff, and arent even top 10

[Reaganrattler07]

Yeah it's getting pretty ridiculous....there was something on the news a while back that they were trying to reverse the law. I think they should just go back to the old school of doing it with applications and everything.

[dragons06]

The colleges hate it also. They get those kids from lower quality schools that arent ready for college and end up dropping out after their first year. It was a good idea, but isnt fair to everyone.

[lonny23]

What all goes into the 10% rule? Is it that you're guaranteed to get accepted to any public university in Texas if you graduate in the top 10%?

I really doubt that the top 10% at the worst schools are that bad academically. We had 14 honor graduates in high school and all of us were prepared for college. You would get down into the 20's for the top 10%, but all of them were ready for college.

[Reaganrattler07]

On the thing that I watched on the news a while back (about a half a year ago i think) one of the schools they focused on was Texas and how they're starting to get too many people and how it started to work too well.

[lonny23]

Ol' Joe thinks Dallas people are the ugliest because he never went to San Antonio!

[XSVRanger]

On the thing that I watched on the news a while back (about a half a year ago i think) one of the schools they focused on was Texas and how they're starting to get too many people and how it started to work too well.

I think I know what you're talking about. They compared one student from Austin Westlake to another from Fox Tech. The Fox Tech student had a lower GPA but still got into UT when the Westlake student didn't. My school councelor told me that there was a good chance they'd lower it to the top 5%.

[CCBoy]

The colleges hate it also. They get those kids from lower quality schools that arent ready for college and end up dropping out after their first year. It was a good idea, but isnt fair to everyone.
I can understand why some of you feel that way, but I can see how it helps kids from lower quality schools (Inner City). I'm a prime example. I went to a four year University in Oklahoma and I received a degree along with many others. Some kids are not as fortunate financially to live in an area with schools that are funded well, but on the other hand the inner city schools funds are dispersed throughout the districts and they're not given all the same opportunities. These inner city schooled kids aren't given a chance to get a good education sometimes until they go off to a college or university. The top 10 percent of kids in the lower quality schools are not big dummies and I actually witnessed more of a drive out of these kids in college than those who were given educations in more prosperous areas. The ability is there, just not an adequate education. I had the chance to break the cycle by having an opportunity and now my kids will be raised in an area where they'll have a chance to get a great start. Don't take for granted what you have and let's not always try to keep the less fortunate down, because one day you'll be among those guys and you won't even know it until they tell you.

[Woodlands!!]

Its completely ridiculous in my opinion. At my highschool last year's graduating class had to have a 4.2 GPA to be in the top ten percent.

[dragonsdaddy]

this rule has helped all schools except tamu and tu raise the quality of their applicant pool. the deans of admission all over thake that for what it's worth.e southwest love it.

[StormingCowboy]

Its completely ridiculous in my opinion. At my highschool last year's graduating class had to have a 4.2 GPA to be in the top ten percent.

Top ten percent is based on the highest rank points in a particular class. That "had to have a 4.2" would only work if out of 500 students, 50 had over 4.2. If only 25 had a 4.2 then obviously the other 25 would have less than 4.2 It's relative to the grades and courses taken by a particular class.

[jrdaniel]

I know I was top 50% at Judson - too much beer drinkin', and my wife was top 10% at her 3a high school. The lack of knowledge she has concerning the basics - history, english, math, writing, etc. is astonishing. I know for a fact just changing the schools (and partying less), I would have been top 5% at her school.

I didn't know about the 10% rule until my senior year when it was too late to change my habits.

[Reaganrattler07]

Ol' Joe thinks Dallas people are the ugliest because he never went to San Antonio!

Lonny, aren't you in San Antonio or the immediate area? Like Converse or something?

[Reaganrattler07]

I think they should just go back to the days of you ship off an application with a list of the classes you took and the grades you got in them and let the college decide who comes in and who doesn't. Cause in some schools, the Top 10 percent wouldn't make the Top 50 percent of another school.

[GTown02]

Garland is particularly hard to get into top 10% with the IB program... if your not full IB at Garland, there is almost no shot at being in the top 10%.

[lonny23]

Lonny, aren't you in San Antonio or the immediate area? Like Converse or something?
I lived in Converse until the Air Force moved me up to Wichita Falls. That's why I made the comment about the people. I can't help it they look better in Wichita Falls. Even Charles Barkley has made comments about Dallas women looking good and San Antonio not so good.

On a serious note, I think Joe Gibbs was joking around. He's great friends with Norm Miller of Interstate Batteries in Dallas because of NASCAR and as coach of the Redskins, it's his job to bash Dallas.

[LoneRocket]

I think they should just go back to the days of you ship off an application with a list of the classes you took and the grades you got in them and let the college decide who comes in and who doesn't. Cause in some schools, the Top 10 percent wouldn't make the Top 50 percent of another school.
The legislators will not resend the 10 percent rule, because it allows students from their schools to have a chance at going to UT or A&M. I think one farming community sent 5 students to UT last year when they had 3 students in the last 20 years who were accepted to UT. Also there are instances where parents will send their children to a high school where they believe they can obtain a higher GPA because they could not make it at their own school (the sports theory of getting a scholarship). It also hampers the legacy appointments (you are accepted into a major university because one of your parent and grandparent is a graduate) because they do not have enough slots for those students. Remember acceptance to a University does not mean your way is paid for; it is acceptance as long as you meet certain qualifications.

[Reaganrattler07]

I lived in Converse until the Air Force moved me up to Wichita Falls. That's why I made the comment about the people. I can't help it they look better in Wichita Falls. Even Charles Barkley has made comments about Dallas women looking good and San Antonio not so good.

On a serious note, I think Joe Gibbs was joking around. He's great friends with Norm Miller of Interstate Batteries in Dallas because of NASCAR and as coach of the Redskins, it's his job to bash Dallas.

Of course he was joking. He needed to renew the ol' Rivalry. Do you hear anyone talking good about their rivals? If Parcells called Washington ugly, it wouldn't matter to me. And it showed how much of a class-act he was when he came out and apologized to anyone offended.

Even though I'm going against what I just said....the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders don't look all that bad :D

[Reaganrattler07]

The legislators will not resend the 10 percent rule, because it allows students from their schools to have a chance at going to UT or A&M. I think one farming community sent 5 students to UT last year when they had 3 students in the last 20 years who were accepted to UT. Also there are instances where parents will send their children to a high school where they believe they can obtain a higher GPA because they could not make it at their own school (the sports theory of getting a scholarship). It also hampers the legacy appointments (you are accepted into a major university because one of your parent and grandparent is a graduate) because they do not have enough slots for those students. Remember acceptance to a University does not mean your way is paid for; it is acceptance as long as you meet certain qualifications.

Yeah, it doesn't mean that your paid for. But people who can pay for it and have a better chance of succeeding may not get in because a person who can't afford and/or can't succeed in the college gets in.

[SummitGrad04]

I can understand why some of you feel that way, but I can see how it helps kids from lower quality schools (Inner City). I'm a prime example. I went to a four year University in Oklahoma and I received a degree along with many others. Some kids are not as fortunate financially to live in an area with schools that are funded well, but on the other hand the inner city schools funds are dispersed throughout the districts and they're not given all the same opportunities. These inner city schooled kids aren't given a chance to get a good education sometimes until they go off to a college or university. The top 10 percent of kids in the lower quality schools are not big dummies and I actually witnessed more of a drive out of these kids in college than those who were given educations in more prosperous areas. The ability is there, just not an adequate education. I had the chance to break the cycle by having an opportunity and now my kids will be raised in an area where they'll have a chance to get a great start. Don't take for granted what you have and let's not always try to keep the less fortunate down, because one day you'll be among those guys and you won't even know it until they tell you.

Couldn't have said it better. Kids from small and/or lesser-quality schools should not be punished because they did not have access to the things that students at bigger schools had. 99% of kids have no control over where they live and what school they attend, therfore they should at least be given a chance to get into a university like UT or A&M.

[friendswood72]

Ok I know its not their fault they don't recieve higher education in their highschools but if you want it bad enough you will go get it yourself. UT and A&M are HIGHER learning schools. Meaning if you didn't get the education in highschool, you are sure as hell not going to pick it up at UT. Thats what Community Colleges/Junior Colleges are for. Nothing wrong with them.

[CCBoy]

Ok I know its not their fault they don't recieve higher education in their highschools but if you want it bad enough you will go get it yourself. UT and A&M are HIGHER learning schools. Meaning if you didn't get the education in highschool, you are sure as hell not going to pick it up at UT. Thats what Community Colleges/Junior Colleges are for. Nothing wrong with them.
I'll have to say that you are very wrong friendswood. I've seen many fine examples and I know many that have made it in the UT's and TA&M's. My wife went to an inner city school and was at the top of her class and she was also in the top percent of her class at South Texas School of Law in Houston. A very so called "top notched law school". I see it and live it all the time, but your'e just giving your opinion all the time. You say they can't pick it up at UT...please, everything that is learned was taught or experienced. Inner city schooled kids may understand when being taught better than someone with a so called "GREAT EDUCATION". Remember they are not dummies, they have sense. UT is no more complex than any other university. Don't be blind to reality.

[lonny23]

Ok I know its not their fault they don't recieve higher education in their highschools but if you want it bad enough you will go get it yourself. UT and A&M are HIGHER learning schools. Meaning if you didn't get the education in highschool, you are sure as hell not going to pick it up at UT. Thats what Community Colleges/Junior Colleges are for. Nothing wrong with them.
What does drugs have to do with this? ;)

[Reaganrattler07]

Ok I know its not their fault they don't recieve higher education in their highschools but if you want it bad enough you will go get it yourself. UT and A&M are HIGHER learning schools. Meaning if you didn't get the education in highschool, you are sure as hell not going to pick it up at UT. Thats what Community Colleges/Junior Colleges are for. Nothing wrong with them.

I'm gonna haveta go with freindswood on this one. UT and A&M are higher learning schools. If UT and A&M were the same with any other college, why is it that these two schools are the most sought after in Texas?

[CCBoy]

I'm gonna haveta go with freindswood on this one. UT and A&M are higher learning schools. If UT and A&M were the same with any other college, why is it that these two schools are the most sought after in Texas?
I wasn't debating the level of the schools, but I was saying that the kids are taught in the same classes in these so called " big time schools. What would make him think that inner city schooled kids can't grasp a concept like there is a learning disability associated with them when those kids in many cases grasp it better than the other kids. It is a controversial subject I guess, because some people only know where they come from and don't realize the learning capacity of the kids on the other side of the tracks. I've been on both sides.

[friendswood72]

Man you are the one blind if you think the same classes are taught ( and at the same difficulty level) at say Friendswood and Houston Kashmere for example. You know "examples" of people who did well at UT's and A&M's? Well i know "examples" of people who went straight to the NBA! Look at Lebron! So that means now every highschool basketball player should be able to make the jump right?

[CCBoy]

Man you are the one blind if you think the same classes are taught ( and at the same difficulty level) at say Friendswood and Houston Kashmere for example. You know "examples" of people who did well at UT's and A&M's? Well i know "examples" of people who went straight to the NBA! Look at Lebron! So that means now every highschool basketball player should be able to make the jump right?
First of all friendswood I did not say the same classes are taught at those highschools. What I did say was that they will be taught in the same classes at those big time universities and do just as well in those classes as someone who came from those more high status schools and what your'e talking about with highschool basketball players is totally off subject but I will briefly tell you my point and I'm sure you won't agree. If you know nothing about hard living you should just keep your comments to yourself. Alot of these kids can find a way to make a quick million or possibly multi-millions and all they know is barely making it. I can very well understand them choosing the NBA over college because they will always have the option for college if something goes wrong but they might not always have the chance to make a million to support a family that only knows hard times. My opinion isn't important for you to know what I would do, but as far as those guys making the decision.....I understand them fully because of what they feel the need to do. I went to Dallas Carter and working in the corporate world along side of alot of dummies that that went to those high status schools (highschool and college) who I wonder how the heck did they even graduate. This is not made up but whole truth.

[dragonsdaddy]

my theory is that the top 5 percent of any school will be successful regardless, and the bottom 5 percent won't. it's the mid 90 that can go either way based on the education system, the parental guidance, and luck of the draw. it turns out the luck of the draw is better in some schools than others.

[CCBoy]

Now I feel you there Dragondaddy because you don't sound so blind to the fact and you mentioned some important facts. One being parental guidance and secondly what you said about the top 5 percent, because you could almost match up that 5 percent pretty evenly no matter what school it is and they will more than likely succeed in college or whatever else they pursue.

[friendswood72]

CCBoy, you totally missed my point about the NBA deal. Im not even going to try to explain my post to you because your reading comprehension obviously isn't up to par. How do you know I know nothing about hard living? You don't know me. Both of my parents families were dirt poor and they didn't get any help just like I didn't get any help. How do you think the wealthy become wealthy? Lottery? Man some people these days....

Ok you still don't get my objection to the top 10%. So follow closely....
I understand people from upper and lower tier schools attend the same college classes, but what I am saying is there is a high DROPOUT percentage of kids who get into UT because they were in top 10% at an academically bad highschool and didn't get the proper education while they were there.

What I AM SAYING IS : It would be better for those kids to go to a respectable juco like St. Edwards or a community college and to get the proper education so they aren't "thrown to the wolves". I am _NOT_ saying inner city kids shouldn't go to schools like UT & A&M im saying they might not be prepared.

Please do not try and follow up on this as it is going no where and you are digging a mighty deep hole for yourself. ;)

[CCBoy]

We do feel mutual about the two of us leaving this subject alone. Some of us will die not knowing anything but what somebody told us because of lack of experience Mr Lotto. The hole I'm digging isn't for me it is for you. You keep you eyes closed long enough you'll finally run into something. :cool:

[dada]

I'm jumping in at the end of this..not reading all the posts...so what some people are saying is that Student A went to "Super High School A" and the other went to "Inner-City High School B" Student A wants to go to UT....he should go. Student B wants to go to UT also....Both were in the top 5% at their respective schools....Student B should try to go to a JUCO and not UT...based on the fact that he was unfortunate to have been born in the inner-city and went to a certain high school??? Like I said...dont bash me...caught the tail end of this.

[dragonsdaddy]

actually, the origional beef was with the fact that tu and tamu have to accept the top 10ers whether they qualify any other way, and whether it is fair and good for all concerned.

[dada]

actually, the origional beef was with the fact that tu and tamu have to accept the top 10ers whether they qualify any other way, and whether it is fair and good for all concerned.
Ok...so the argument goes SOMETHING like this?...Lets use High School playoffs for an example to see if I'm understanding this right. UIL says...were gonna take the top 3 from each district...Team a is in mythical District 1..Goes 7-3....misses the playoffs...Team b is in district 2....not as tough as district 1...they make the playoffs with a 4-6 record. Team a says "If we were in THAT district we would be #1, Why is the UIL letting them go, this rule stinks"


Am I close...or way off and should just leave it alone? ;)

[dragonsdaddy]

interesting and pretty much dead on. there's some pc in it, but the gist is there.

[dada]

interesting and pretty much dead on. there's some pc in it, but the gist is there.
Okay....I'm caught up now. I have to make things dummy proof for me to understand. :D

[Reaganrattler07]

Yeah, that playoff example is a pretty good example.....

[friendswood72]

Ok some of you still aren't getting the point. It's not whether if they are in the top 5%, sure they arent idiots that is understood. It's whether they can survive in a school like University of Texas, which is just becoming a higher and higher learning facility and it wouldn't surprise me if they caught up with CAL-Berkely for the top spot. Sure they can try hard but if you don't have the education to go there, don't waste their time! It's not about poor school vs. wealthy school, its about poor education vs. good education; ie : go to the texas xtra prep rival greater houston forum to see how many HISD schools were deemed unacceptable. CCBoy, Sorry if I offended you, but ONCE again i'm not saying inner city kids don't deserve a higher education, they just might not be ready for it ( yes there are exceptions ).

[Reaganrattler07]

Ok some of you still aren't getting the point. It's not whether if they are in the top 5%, sure they arent idiots that is understood. It's whether they can survive in a school like University of Texas, which is just becoming a higher and higher learning facility and it wouldn't surprise me if they caught up with CAL-Berkely for the top spot. Sure they can try hard but if you don't have the education to go there, don't waste their time! It's not about poor school vs. wealthy school, its about poor education vs. good education; ie : go to the texas xtra prep rival greater houston forum to see how many HISD schools were deemed unacceptable. CCBoy, Sorry if I offended you, but ONCE again i'm not saying inner city kids don't deserve a higher education, they just might not be ready for it ( yes there are exceptions ).

I agree.....kids who benefit from the Top 10% can't keep up with the "big schools"

[LoneRocket]

I agree.....kids who benefit from the Top 10% can't keep up with the "big schools"
friendswood72, Redskins88
Where is your data coming from to base your conclusions? I would like to look at it.

[Reaganrattler07]

I probably should've said some of the Top 10%....my bad.

And my source....read somewhere earlier in the thread. I got it off the news a while back.

[friendswood72]

My cousin is a Professor at UT for History of Foriegn Languages and tells me that alot of the kids that come from Dallas, and Houston ISD schools struggle but they have good work ethic.... but she says that just wont cut it at UT and that she had 7(students from innercity background that were in top 10% and that explains how they got into UT) out of 54(total students) drop out in the first semester. It's sad that the innercity schools academics have gotten this bad (especially in Houston). There you go lone rocket. There was also a report on Channel 2 News about a month and a half ago so feel free to look that up as well. Any Questions?

[LoneRocket]

My cousin is a Professor at UT for History of Foriegn Languages and tells me that alot of the kids that come from Dallas, and Houston ISD schools struggle but they have good work ethic.... but she says that just wont cut it at UT and that she had 7(students from innercity background that were in top 10% and that explains how they got into UT) out of 54(total students) drop out in the first semester. It's sad that the innercity schools academics have gotten this bad (especially in Houston). There you go lone rocket. There was also a report on Channel 2 News about a month and a half ago so feel free to look that up as well. Any Questions?
If I understand what you are saying is the out of the 54 students that drop the class. (7 where from the inner city) Now out of your cousin’s 400 to 800 students if we take the high end that would be 6.75% (13.5% at the low end) how many of the 746 students were from the inner city? Does your cousin ask where they are from or does he/she assume. Does your cousin teach the course or does he/she have a T/A teaching the course while doing research. I will let you in on a little secret you might know already, some students/frats (yes I was a witness to this) will cheat by stealing copies of tests (most professors do not change their tests through out the years) or even had others with fake ID’s take tests for them or purchase essays and most of the students that were involved were not from the inner city. Some of these students when they had to think on their own could not perform, I used to work with one and he had the nerve to bring up your argument, but he hated to be reminded of how he cheated to get to where he was, he did not last long. I know a UT professor who took heat for flunking a student from a well to do family because he could not make that grade. It is hard to make assumptions when there are so many variables.

[v2the4]

I may be coming in a little late on this subject, but I think we need to clarify a few things. The top 10% rule was manidated by the Texas Legislature and signed into law by then Governor George W. Bush in 1997. You can find the link here:http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/ED/content/htm/ed.003.00.000051.00.htm#51.803.00


What I didnt know until I actually read the code myself was that a student only had to be in the top 10% academically in one of the two years preceding the academic year for which the applicant is applying for admission....

so, if a student was in the top 10% of his class as a junior, but dropped back to the pack his/her senior year, they still qualify under the automatic admission rule, however the college in question they apply towards may require the student to enroll immediately in the summer school session for enrichment courses and orientation programs.


I can understand your "anger" towards the issue Friendswood72 and obviously, someone in your family must have been personally affected by the 10% rule, but if you look at the bigger picture, you will understand why the legislature in Austin came up with decision.

the lack of minority students at mainly UT and A&M, even back in the early to mid 90's was embarrasing. Most colleges in the USA base their decision to admit students on SAT/ACT scores, high school GPA's, and other criteria (legacy program, community envolvment, recommendations, etc) and because minorities have historically performed poor on standard testing, they were more likely to not be accepted to state U based on their test scores alone.

While the top 10% law has it upside, it does have its downside as well. In a highly competetive academic high school, such as Bellaire High in HISD, some kids are going to be on the outside looking in, while at a less competetive academic high school, some kids are in the mix when they really havent proved themselves academically.

Its not the fault of the kid if they live in the inner city and dont have all the resources to get a quality education any more than it is the fault of the suburan kid who has all the resources, bust his *** with a high GPA, but fails to make the top 10% of his class...

[dentonRYAN]

Also.... students who transfer can be greatly hurt or helped by the top 10% law..... i know many people that toke all AP class and were easily in the top 10% at one school....and then during their junior year changed school for different reasons......
The schools they moved into was much easier to get better grades in.... so they were stuck in the 15%-20% range because the students that started off at that school made better grades from the start because the teachers were much different in grading....

[friendswood72]

Lone Rocket, No I am saying my cousins History of Latin American Culture class has 54 students total ( well summerschool atleast ). She said 7 were from dallas/houston isd schools and thats pretty big amount for one class at UT i have to admit but they all dropped out. Sorry dead subject.

[mtbray]

I think the top 10% rule is a good incentive to work hard for those kids who aren't as capable on tests (SAT, ACT) as others.


You really don't NEED to be top 10% to get into the school of your choice anyway. If you do decently well on your SAT or ACT, have a good enough GPA, and prove through your essay that you're quality enough, you should make it. The top 10 percent rule isn't supposed to limit students, it's supposed to help them. Besides, if you're from a more competitive school (Garland for example) they'll take that into account.

I graduated 10.4 percent in my class, barely missing the cut, but still managed my way into UT. It CAN be done!

[CCBoy]

Lone Rocket, No I am saying my cousins History of Latin American Culture class has 54 students total ( well summerschool atleast ). She said 7 were from dallas/houston isd schools and thats pretty big amount for one class at UT i have to admit but they all dropped out. Sorry dead subject.
Well there you have it ladies and gentleman.........The 2005 inner city drop out research award goes to.........Friendswoods cousin, who said that all 7 inner city students enrolled in Latin American Culture dropped out. Not even one of them could handle it. I hate to see how they would fair if it was mandatory chapel. Please!!!! :rolleyes:

[mtbray]

Lone Rocket, No I am saying my cousins History of Latin American Culture class has 54 students total ( well summerschool atleast ). She said 7 were from dallas/houston isd schools and thats pretty big amount for one class at UT i have to admit but they all dropped out. Sorry dead subject.

Who is your cousin....I may have her.

Also, did they drop the class or the University?