Pick apart "your" guy

[AZTiger]

If anyone else heard the Colin Cowherd show this morning, they did something really cool. They had fans of teams call in, pick one guy who is a stud in the upcoming draft for their team, and point out their weaknesses.

Some of the responses from fans on these players were:

Jimmy Williams (Va Tech) CB - big hitter with speed and size, but will too often try to make the big play and get himself out of position

Mario Williams - no hip bend, plays very high, will have trouble getting chipped by RBs in the NFL

AJ Hawk - "catches" head on blockers instead of taking them on and delivering a blow

Eric Winston - potential, but had an awful 2005

Ernie Sims - over pursues, maybe a tweener

Vince Young - can he read a defense running an offense other than the zone read, may have fumble problems running in the NFL since defensive players at the next level focus more on stripping the ball than in college

Ashton Youboty - gets beat deep, a lot

Chad Greenway - a very poor tackler

D'Angelo Williams - too nice

Greg Blue - slow, hits like a Mack truck, but can't COVER a Mack Truck

That was about it.

NOW, can you do it, can you pick apart your "homeboy" and point out his weakness? The basis of Cowherds point for this was, that there are two things fans know more than the media about: college football players, and bullpens. Unless you're the beat writer for the team, no media sees every play of a college season or every pitchers bullpen appearance. However fans will watch every game and have a significant feel about the positives and negatives of each player.

I watched mostly A&M this year, and they don't really have many draftable guys, but I'll say that the knock on Reggie McNeal is leadership, and Jaxson Appel is ability to cover NO ONE.

[dragons08]

illinois sucks, they got noone

[ktchamp97]

Vince, at times, can try to do too much. On one hand, you want him to freelance, because that ability is what really sets him apart from everyone else, but you have to take the occasional bad decisions that come with that. He improved a great deal in this area from when he got to UT to when he left, but he'll have to go through it all over again and on a much higher level in the NFL. I think he will struggle with turnovers early in his career, but if given time, he will figure out when he can freelance and when he should just eat it and take a sack. Also, he can do a MUCH better job protecting the football when running in traffic.

[Reaganrattler07]

Lol, wasn't this supposed to point out their weaknesses?

But I gotta agree with Jimmy Williams. He's pretty good all around but tends to go for the big play.

[AZTiger]

Lol, wasn't this supposed to point out their weaknesses?

But I gotta agree with Jimmy Williams. He's pretty good all around but tends to go for the big play.

It's about what I expected from him and his brother ;)

Skate around actually naming a weakness. Some guys on the Texans board did the same, and I called them out on it.

[Mad Hatter]

Anyone hear follow gerogia football, well i do becasue my dad is a fan. Heres the deal Blue is an awesome enforcer my god he brings it all when he hits but buy were they right when they said he couldnt cover a mack truck lol hes really bad unless he is in zone. In a man Coverage forget about it.

[ktchamp97]

Vince, at times, can try to do too much...
you have to take the occasional bad decisions that come with that.
I think he will struggle with turnovers early in his career
Also, he can do a MUCH better job protecting the football when running in traffic.
Are these not weaknesses that I pointed out? Where did I skirt around them? Good grief.

He throws like Uncle Rico and actually is not as smart as the real Radio. There...are we happy?

[AZTiger]

Naw, that's fine, I was just messin with ya. I'd expected your bro to skate around it though.

The guy on the Texans board said his only weakness was his choice in agent. :rolleyes:

[svhorns]

I agree with KT about vince young. All qbs like Vince have that problem though. Michael Vick I think is learning though about trying do to much hes learning the hard way through injuries

[jtk1519]

I love following QBs in the draft, especially guys I have seen in college. Since Vince has been covered, I'll try and go after a few others (in no particular order)...

Brodie Croyle - Lacks good size. Only about 6'2 205. Injury prone... big time. Has torn ligaments in both knees, dislocated an elbow and tore his labrum. Slow (4.9 speed) and will not stretch the pocket. Not very experienced. Strong arm, but accuracy can fade at times. Looks way too much like one of the Detmer boys.

Jay Cutler - Possible "combine wonder". Put up solid combine numbers but has never shown that kind of "wow" on the field. Poor Mechanics. Has the Brett Favre "gunslinger" mentality without Favre's arm. Extremely inconsistent. Runs a 4.7 in the 40, but is not a serious threat outside of the pocket. Will not be used to the speed and talent level of the NFL.

Marcus Vick - He's an a**hole.

Matt Leinart - Average arm at best. Has trouble throwing the deep ball. Not very mobile. Somewhat injury prone. Has had surgery to the shoulder on his throwing arm and well as elbow surgery before his senior season. Possible product of the system. Compared to other college football teams, Leinart was surrounded by more talent than any team not wearing Burnt Orange. If he goes in the top 15 picks of the NFL, he will no longer have that luxury as any team he goes to will be far from the most talented in the league. Meaning, he will be required to do more... more than he has ever had to do and more than he may be capable of. Was rumored to be with Paris Hilton for a while which means there is a 93.4% chance he is infected with something. Needs to learn how to shave.

Reggie McNeal - Lacks good size. Only about 6-2 198. Timed 40 speed is nowhere near duplicated on the field. Great straight line speed, but poor lateral speed and agility. While he will be able to run some in the pros, he won't be able to run near as often and won't be near as successful which will put more pressure on his passing. Not the strongest arm. Not a consistent passer. Tends to stare down the WR and doesn't have a very good feel for the pocket. Has a very fragile appearance and has been injured quite a bit in his college career. Tends to collapse under pressure. Not a good leader.

Barrick Nealy - Could be the biggest sleeper in the draft, but that is just my opinion. Played Div. I-AA football so he will not be used to the speed or athletes in the NFL. Played in a spread offense and will have to adjust to the pro game (sickens me to say that). Will have to learn to play under center. Mechanics can be poor at times. Accuracy can be poor at times. Sometimes struggles with the deep ball. Great size (6'4 226) and great speed (4.57), but isn't the most agile runner. Like McNeal, is more of a straight line runner. Will be able to move the pocket, but might not be a serious running threat in the NFL. Serious injury helped force his transfer from U of Houston to Texas State.

[AZTiger]

LOL at your Marcus Vick comment

[Reaganrattler07]

Uh, JTK....what is "good size"? Mark Brunell is 6 foot and plays pretty darn well. You don't need to be as tall as the darn stadium to have "good size".

[svhorns]

Flutie wasnt bad either at what 5'11

[lightweight]

Doug Flutie was 5'10.

[svhorns]

yea i knew he wasnt tall thats for sure

[Reaganrattler07]

Flutie wasnt bad either at what 5'11

The Detmer's weren't too tall either....Mike Vick is about 6 foot i think as well.

[jtk1519]

Uh, JTK....what is "good size"? Mark Brunell is 6 foot and plays pretty darn well. You don't need to be as tall as the darn stadium to have "good size".

Good size is what the NFL likes to see in their QBs. There used to be a chart online somewhere that showed the NFL's "ideal" size for their players. The size they prefer their players to be. QB was something like 6'3-6'5, 220-240 lbs. RBs were something like 5'10-6'0, 215-230 lbs. And so on.

That doesn't mean they can't be a success. There are a lot of starting QBs that don't have good size... Drew Brees, Mike Vick, Jake Delhomme, Brett Favre, etc. All it means is that all things being equal, the NFL will take the 6'5 230 QB over the 6'2 210 guy every day of the week.

[Reaganrattler07]

Good size is what the NFL likes to see in their QBs. There used to be a chart online somewhere that showed the NFL's "ideal" size for their players. The size they prefer their players to be. QB was something like 6'3-6'5, 220-240 lbs. RBs were something like 5'10-6'0, 215-230 lbs. And so on.

That doesn't mean they can't be a success. There are a lot of starting QBs that don't have good size... Drew Brees, Mike Vick, Jake Delhomme, Brett Favre, etc. All it means is that all things being equal, the NFL will take the 6'5 230 QB over the 6'2 210 guy every day of the week.

Yeah, they just go after size and not skills. Not accuracy, speed, strength of throw, mechanics. Just so long as you're tall :rolleyes:

It'd be a lot easier to just say that you think Vince Young is the best quarterback to ever play the game....

[svhorns]

Yeah, they just go after size and not skills. Not accuracy, speed, strength of throw, mechanics. Just so long as you're tall :rolleyes:

It'd be a lot easier to just say that you think Vince Young is the best quarterback to ever play the game....
Hes the best College QB ever to play the game now he just needs to get it done at the next level and I believe 100% he has what it takes

[jtk1519]

Yeah, they just go after size and not skills. Not accuracy, speed, strength of throw, mechanics. Just so long as you're tall :rolleyes:

What part of "all things being equal" do you not understand? Let me help you. I'll type this slow for you.

It means that if you have two QBs, one is 6'5 230 and the other is 6'2 210, they are both identical. They both run the same, they both throw the same, they both test out the same. The NFL will take the bigger guy.

That is what I meant when I typed "all things being equal". :rolleyes:

[Reaganrattler07]

Hes the best College QB ever to play the game now he just needs to get it done at the next level and I believe 100% he has what it takes

Yeah, he'll win 10 straight superbowls and be inducted into the Hall of Fame in his third year (first player to ever do so).

Lol, I wouldn't say he is the best ever. Definately the best Texas has probably ever seen but I wouldn't say the best to ever play the game.

[Reaganrattler07]

What part of "all things being equal" do you not understand? Let me help you. I'll type this slow for you.

It means that if you have two QBs, one is 6'5 230 and the other is 6'2 210, they are both identical. They both run the same, they both throw the same, they both test out the same. The NFL will take the bigger guy.

That is what I meant when I typed "all things being equal". :rolleyes:

Things are never equal, JTK. Everyone all has strengths and weaknesses but of course Zeus, uh...Vince Young....only has strengths I guess....

[svhorns]

Note I said best College QB...If you dont think so name someone else with better credentials than Vince put up in college.

[jtk1519]

Things are never equal, JTK. Everyone all has strengths and weaknesses but of course Zeus, uh...Vince Young....only has strengths I guess....

What are you talking about? I never mentioned Young. Leinart measured out at 6'5 230... Why couldn't I have been talking about him or Quinton Porter or Charlie Whitehurst? The point is that I wasn't talking about anybody in paticular. It's called an "exapmle". It's not meant to be gospel.

[svhorns]

Things are never equal, JTK. Everyone all has strengths and weaknesses but of course Zeus, uh...Vince Young....only has strengths I guess....
read ktchamps post on the first page

[Reaganrattler07]

Note I said best College QB...If you dont think so name someone else with better credentials than Vince put up in college.

I haven't been around long enough to name a QB and I don't think you have either. We normally like to believe what we are witnessing in the present is the best we've ever seen. I don't know if you're a Spurs fan but there was a poll taken of "which Championship is more memorable" and of course the latest one was first with 2003 being second and my favorite and most memorable being third (1999).

[Reaganrattler07]

What are you talking about? I never mentioned Young. Leinart measured out at 6'5 230... Why couldn't I have been talking about him or Quinton Porter or Charlie Whitehurst? The point is that I wasn't talking about anybody in paticular. It's called an "exapmle". It's not meant to be gospel.

JTK, if "all things are equal" then why would they be the same height? And of course they'd take the taller quarterback if all the skills of the two were trully equal...but thats never the case. And the reason why I brought up Young is because you all propose him to be Zeus on this board....

[jtk1519]

JTK, if "all things are equal" then why would they be the same height? And of course they'd take the taller quarterback if all the skills of the two were trully equal...but thats never the case. And the reason why I brought up Young is because you all propose him to be Zeus on this board....

I have never seen somebody so confused and unable to understand such a simple phrase and concept. It's like trying to explain "2+2=4" to a tree. I really don't know what else to say.

[Reaganrattler07]

I have never seen somebody so confused and unable to understand such a simple phrase and concept. It's like trying to explain "2+2=4" to a tree. I really don't know what else to say.

Lol, you need to get out more if I'm your definition of stupid.....

[jtk1519]

Lol, you need to get out more if I'm your definition of stupid.....

Did I call you "stupid"? At worst, I called you a tree. Maybe you're a smart tree. A tree that has trouble comprehending simple and routine figures of speech.

[Reaganrattler07]

Did I call you "stupid"? At worst, I called you a tree. Maybe you're a smart tree. A tree that has trouble comprehending simple and routine figures of speech.

And which simple and routine figure of speech did I not seem to comprehend?

[jtk1519]

And which simple and routine figure of speech did I not seem to comprehend?

http://media.scout.com/media/image/26/267814.gif

[Reaganrattler07]

http://media.scout.com/media/image/26/267814.gif

Lol, that image kinda describes what I'm trying to do....argue with a wall.

[jtk1519]

Lol, that image kinda describes what I'm trying to do....argue with a wall.

Stop arguing into the mirror and your problem will be solved.

[Reaganrattler07]

Stop arguing into the mirror and your problem will be solved.

I was just about to say that you're bringing this pointless arguement nowhere....

[jtk1519]

I was just about to say that you're bringing this pointless arguement nowhere....

And I'm sure your delirious ramblings about Zeus or whatever really took this debate to new levels. :rolleyes:

This was a great topic with great discussion until something so small and simple sent your mind into a confused tail spin that unfortunately hijacked and ended a good discussion. Oh well.

[mtbray]

reaganrattler, your self pwnage has just made my day, congratulations.

[Firebird]

OK, back to the original intent of this board. I'll go with some of "my" guys:

1. Danieal Manning-- Well, he played D-II at Abilene Christian, so it goes without saying that he is a guy with a lot of "upside", with the disadvantages that phrase entails. He is a "tweener", and probably a bit slower than most NFL safeties. Can he make the tremendous jump from D-II to the league.

2. Taurean Henderson-- size is a concern, and along with that his tendancy to get taken down by the first tackler. Was really more of a reciever out of the backfield at Tech, and carries the stigma of being a "system" player.

3. Vince Young-- I like him I really do. I worry about how he will do if he gets a coach that "won't let Vince be Vince", and how he will be able to handle not being "the man" for at least a year. Fumblitis has been covered, and I think that unless he changes his style a bit, injuries will become a concern. His arm and throwing mechanism will NOT be a problem.

4. Reggie McNeal-- will not be a starting qb in the NFL. Too fragile, too small, too streaky. He needs to start thinking about becoming an athlete right away. Could become a Randle-El type player, though probably not his caliber.

5. Reggie Bush-- Can he be a feature back? One thing is for sure, if he does become the go to back, do not expect highlight reel runs from him every other play like in college. Will NOT be the next Barry Sanders, no matter what the scouts say. Has the potential to be a solid, talented back in the NFL, but I have doubts whether he will ever be considered the best back in the League at any point in his career. Size is another concern, as bigger backs gain in popularity.

[svhorns]

I haven't been around long enough to name a QB and I don't think you have either. We normally like to believe what we are witnessing in the present is the best we've ever seen. I don't know if you're a Spurs fan but there was a poll taken of "which Championship is more memorable" and of course the latest one was first with 2003 being second and my favorite and most memorable being third (1999).
Tommy Frazier, go ahead look him up.

[jtk1519]

1. Danieal Manning-- Well, he played D-II at Abilene Christian, so it goes without saying that he is a guy with a lot of "upside", with the disadvantages that phrase entails. He is a "tweener", and probably a bit slower than most NFL safeties. Can he make the tremendous jump from D-II to the league.

Speed is not Manning's problem. He ran a 4.46 at the NFL combine and a 4.43 at the aggy pro day which is faster than times put up by USC‘s Darnell Bing and Alabama‘s Roman Harper. He's been clocked at ACU in the 4.3s. He has the speed to be a big threat return man which I would imagine is where he will start out before seeing more time in the secondary.

Manning is a poor man's Michael Huff. He has the size and ferocity required to be an NFL safety, but he also has the speed and coverage ability to be an NFL corner. To add to his versatility, Manning ran WR drills at the NFL combine and at the ACU pro day and supposedly he really impressed the scouts with his pass catching ability. Manning was so impressive that scouts called him the best athlete at the aggy pro day... a pro day that featured Div. I-A athletes.

I know my Jaguars have taken an interest in him. They have been in Abilene a couple of times to watch him work out and I hope they take him with their second round pick. I don't think Manning will be around when Jacksonville picks in the third round.

[LeanderLions3033]

Reaganrattler07

You do realize that you are the only one that still doesnt understand the "what if they had the same attributes but one just so happened to be 2 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier" point that we are trying to make. Lets just say hypothetically that this senario happened

qb a
6'5" 230 lb

qb b
6'2" 200

they both have the same exact arm strength, the same exact 40 time, they both came from similar offenses so thats a wash, and (keep in mind this is a hypothetical situation before you decide to correct me and say that will never happen like you've done with everybody else) they have the same leadership skills. Which qb are you naturally going to take.

Before you embaress yourself i'll tell you that the answer is qb a because he has what the NFL considers natural size.

[jtk1519]

Reaganrattler07

You do realize that you are the only one that still doesnt understand the "what if they had the same attributes but one just so happened to be 2 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier" point that we are trying to make. Lets just say hypothetically that this senario happened

qb a
6'5" 230 lb

qb b
6'2" 200

they both have the same exact arm strength, the same exact 40 time, they both came from similar offenses so thats a wash, and (keep in mind this is a hypothetical situation before you decide to correct me and say that will never happen like you've done with everybody else) they have the same leadership skills. Which qb are you naturally going to take.

Before you embaress yourself i'll tell you that the answer is qb a because he has what the NFL considers natural size.


Thank you. Great post, but I think it is a lost cause. I didn't think it was difficult to understand the first few times and I'm an idiot.

[Firebird]

Speed is not Manning's problem. He ran a 4.46 at the NFL combine and a 4.43 at the aggy pro day which is faster than times put up by USC‘s Darnell Bing and Alabama‘s Roman Harper. He's been clocked at ACU in the 4.3s. He has the speed to be a big threat return man which I would imagine is where he will start out before seeing more time in the secondary.

Manning is a poor man's Michael Huff. He has the size and ferocity required to be an NFL safety, but he also has the speed and coverage ability to be an NFL corner. To add to his versatility, Manning ran WR drills at the NFL combine and at the ACU pro day and supposedly he really impressed the scouts with his pass catching ability. Manning was so impressive that scouts called him the best athlete at the aggy pro day... a pro day that featured Div. I-A athletes.

I know my Jaguars have taken an interest in him. They have been in Abilene a couple of times to watch him work out and I hope they take him with their second round pick. I don't think Manning will be
around when Jacksonville picks in the third round.

Oh, I absolutely think that Manning will be a steal for whoever picks him up. It has been fun to see this much attention directed toward an ACU guy.

Thanks for the updates on his 40 times.... I only knew about the Combine time, and that he had wished he had run faster.

[Slim-Rob]

That's cool