Is it inconsiderate for recent schools to keep historically, confederate names?

[Mr.LoBeaux]

:confused: You know, this has been on my heart for a while and I think it's time for MATURE individuals who can respond considering ALL aspects of every possible situation to give an honest, UNBIASED opionion on this subject. My opinion is, No. I do not believe that schools especially named after Robert E. Lee should be allowed to withhold those particular names at this point in time. Why? Because it is simply the focal points of too many racially motivated acts. And, these schools are primarily named based on a historically, IGNORANT group of people who basically sought to retaliate against the slowly turning society who made some form of an attempt to integrate all types of persons with various ethnic backgrounds. Think about it:
Why would you honor ANY individual by naming an institution of learning after them KNOWING that their motive for WAR was to uphold the OPPRESSION of HUMANS over an indifference of SKIN PIGMENTATION! I mean, it's sad and ridiculous! I'm here to talk not argue about this. So, I welcome all opinions, comments, questions, etc. that are handled and directed in a POSITIVE manner.

[NewSherriffInTown]

I think Robert E Lee has absolutely NOTHING to do with Slavery or Oppression.

He was a great general for an army. We went over this in another thread about what the war was about.

Here's the kicker though, even if the war was 100% over Slavery, it wouldn't have anything to do with Robert E. Lee.


It's well documented in history that he was a general with the Confederates because he lived in a Confederate state and he would feel like a traitor if he fought for the Union.

He was even asked by Lincoln wasn't he??


Lee has NOTHING to do with slavery, oppression, or anything like that.

I think you are 100% wrong.

I think the flag represents racist feelings. When I first opened the post I was curious to see what names you wanted to remove.

Give me something besides Robert E. Lee. I, personally think he was the greatest general in the US history. I was a huge Lee fan, and this is coming from a New Yorker who can't stand the sight of the Confederate flag, or anything of that nature.

Lee was strictly about patriotism, and defending his country. At the time, his country was the Confederacy.

[jtk1519]

Is it inconsiderate? No

Is it stupid for people to waste time and money demanding they change those names? Yes

We have too many real problems in this state, nation and world to waste time over something so insignificant.

[Mr.LoBeaux]

:confused: Okay, I can respect that comment. But, here's the question. Knowing what was right, why still lead the confederacy states? He could have easily done what the people west of Virginia did. If, he indeed was that great of a leader. I mean, I love my younger brother to death. But, he does things that are unethically and morally wrong by society's standards. He is grown and knows right from wrong. But, he continues to live the "street" life so, he still is completely aware of the consequences. So, with that being said, who am I to go and try to fight his battle with law enforcement officials when I know in my heart that what he stands for is wrong. I mean, I've read many autobiographies that depict the life of General Lee but, I am no fool either. I know ALL 13 states that formed the confederacy and why they did. This is in more than one city public library, too. You see, I'm not about negativity at no means at all! But, I know that modern day "informants" want to portray him as the IDEALISTC leader. Why, I believe no one bears the claim to perfection, I do believe that his practicality of leading the hatred filled south also, has ones to understand that wrong is wrong and right is right. And, the mindset of the Confederacy ESPECIALLY, during his tenure was wrong!!! But, the thing that boggles me the most is that people tend to downplay the position of a leader. A leader leads by example-RIGHT? So, if there was a war, who was for wrong and who was for right? And, why REGARDLESS of the situation, partake in the role of leading an army comprised of individuals consumed with hatred in their hearts and malicious intents on ANY slave that would not follow suit in their demands in partking in the war with them against the Union??? Hmmmm :o

[wide-e-wide]

He could have just moved to South Virginia. Problem solved....

Wait which one was the bad one? South Virginia or North Virginia?
Or was it East Dakota?

[dragonsdaddy]

you're killing me wide. i may have ruined my keyboard. can you get green tea stains out of it?

[LoboFan07]

Ok now you're just trying to find things to become racial.

This is absolutely a joke. It has to be.

[wide-e-wide]

you're killing me wide. i may have ruined my keyboard. can you get green tea stains out of it?


Yes!!!!!!! My job here is done. Thank you and have a good night.
Green Tea? Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!
I'm not drinking anything that's green or has the word green in it. Well...unless it's St. Patrick's Day...

[drgnbkr]

Is it inconsiderate? No

Is it stupid for people to waste time and money demanding they change those names? Yes

We have too many real problems in this state, nation and world to waste time over something so insignificant.

What he said!.... :)

[dragonsdaddy]

mr lebo, you are simplifying the situation beyond recognition of reality. you have started a flaming thread with ?? about the use of historical figures that aren't politically correct. what you really meant to do with the thread was get your tunnel-vision inaccuracies out in the light where they will either wither or flourish. lee, like many in the south, was torn as to his allegiances, not due to slavery but due to their love of their state. the federalism that we see so much of now that has blossomed with the ever-enlarging sugar teat called entitlements, was very weak in that time frame. we can't judge too harshly a group that was willing to lay down their lives for a cause, states rights. slavery was only one of the issues, tho definitely a truly inflammatory one. the whole of the population, north and south, had similar beliefs as to the black race, but few in the north were economically justified to keep slaves, and thank God for that. the issue brought many smouldering issues to the boiling point, and was the last purely chivalric war at the outset. i would love to think i would have been pure and strong enough to withstand the pressure to fight in a war in which i feel like i wouldn't have agreed. sam houston probably should be a bigger hero to forward thinking texans than he is today.

[RidgePride]

mr lebo, you are simplifying the situation beyond recognition of reality. you have started a flaming thread with ?? about the use of historical figures that aren't politically correct. what you really meant to do with the thread was get your tunnel-vision inaccuracies out in the light where they will either wither or flourish. lee, like many in the south, was torn as to his allegiances, not due to slavery but due to their love of their state. the federalism that we see so much of now that has blossomed with the ever-enlarging sugar teat called entitlements, was very weak in that time frame. we can't judge too harshly a group that was willing to lay down their lives for a cause, states rights. slavery was only one of the issues, tho definitely a truly inflammatory one. the whole of the population, north and south, had similar beliefs as to the black race, but few in the north were economically justified to keep slaves, and thank God for that. the issue brought many smouldering issues to the boiling point, and was the last purely chivalric war at the outset. i would love to think i would have been pure and strong enough to withstand the pressure to fight in a war in which i feel like i wouldn't have agreed. sam houston probably should be a bigger hero to forward thinking texans than he is today.


It upsets me when people get mad at black people for having tunnel vision about the civil war - it should be expected. Slavery is the only issue that concerned the Blacks at that time.

So don't tell a black person that the war was not about slavery.

It's all about point of view - some of you have trouble with that.

The name Robert E Lee does not bother me. He may have fought out of patriotism. Truthfully - no one truly knows unless you were there.

Just a question: Would you hate a leader from Iraq that fought for patriotism against the US?

[wide-e-wide]

It upsets me when people get mad at black people for having tunnel vision about the civil war - it should be expected. Slavery is the only issue that concerned the Blacks at that time.


The name Robert E Lee does not bother me. He may have fought out of patriotism. Truthfully - no one truly knows unless you were there.

Just being honest.
If I were a black American I would be really pissed about the whole thing.
And some white guy telling me to get over it, would only piss me off more.

[Rerun]

the new hs in SA is going to be named Malcolm X High with BLACK PANTHERS as the mascot

[Lobo Dude]

Just a question: Would you hate a leader from Iraq that fought for patriotism against the US?

Hope this doesnt get anyone hollering at me... and just for the record I am very proud of the US and a supporter of President Bush and I love country with all I've got...

But I dont hate Suddam Hussein. I dont like him... but I understand that what he was doing was what he believed was the right thing to do. I dont like Hitler and one of my best friends is Jewish... but what he did was just what he believed. It wasn't right but no one is ever right about everything.

I mean REL was fighting for his country... just like Washington did in the American Revolution. You cant hate someone for not acting the same way you do or not doing the same things that you do.

I mean if you were in the US Army and serving in Iraq... and you didnt agree with being over there and didnt like Bush... you wouldnt just stop fighting and doing your duty.

[Lobo Dude]

the new hs in SA is going to be named Malcolm X High with BLACK PANTHERS as the mascot

Are any of yall white people mad about that?

I"m white and I dont care.

[GoOwls]

:confused: You know, this has been on my heart for a while and I think it's time for MATURE individuals who can respond considering ALL aspects of every possible situation to give an honest, UNBIASED opionion on this subject. My opinion is, No. I do not believe that schools especially named after Robert E. Lee should be allowed to withhold those particular names at this point in time. Why? Because it is simply the focal points of too many racially motivated acts. And, these schools are primarily named based on a historically, IGNORANT group of people who basically sought to retaliate against the slowly turning society who made some form of an attempt to integrate all types of persons with various ethnic backgrounds. Think about it:
Why would you honor ANY individual by naming an institution of learning after them KNOWING that their motive for WAR was to uphold the OPPRESSION of HUMANS over an indifference of SKIN PIGMENTATION! I mean, it's sad and ridiculous! I'm here to talk not argue about this. So, I welcome all opinions, comments, questions, etc. that are handled and directed in a POSITIVE manner.

Hey Mr. Bo, why don't you click out of this thread and go to the football helmets thread and go over a page or two and read my posts and you'll see how I feel about your question. By the overtones you exude, I can tell you are one of the sheep who read the govt. supplied, politically correct history books and not the ones that present the "loosing" side of the story. Remember sir, the winners write the history books in war, and there are two sides as to what is history. Read if you dare.

BTW, you seem to have quite a handle on U.S. history, so here is a little question I'd like you to answer, and bonus points if you know the ratios that relate to the answer. I'm just checking to see if you are the historian you claim to be.
What is the "real" reason Japan felt compelled to start a war against the United States?

I'm waiting.......................

[dragons08]

What is the "real" reason Japan felt compelled to start a war against the United States?

I'm waiting.......................
ahh crap i think i know this!!! but im not mr. bo so i wont answer

[RidgePride]

What is the "real" reason Japan felt compelled to start a war against the United States?

I'm waiting.......................


Is it because they wanted to end slavery for the black Americans?

Ok just kidding -

I think it was because they needed resources.

[RidgePride]

I dont like Hitler and one of my best friends is Jewish... but what he did was just what he believed.

Naming a School Robert Lee does not bother me.

Even trying to qualify or understand what Hitler did is beyond absurd.

[Bootsdaddy]

Hope this doesnt get anyone hollering at me... and just for the record I am very proud of the US and a supporter of President Bush and I love country with all I've got...

But I dont hate Suddam Hussein. I dont like him... but I understand that what he was doing was what he believed was the right thing to do. I dont like Hitler and one of my best friends is Jewish... but what he did was just what he believed. It wasn't right but no one is ever right about everything.

I mean REL was fighting for his country... just like Washington did in the American Revolution. You cant hate someone for not acting the same way you do or not doing the same things that you do.

I mean if you were in the US Army and serving in Iraq... and you didnt agree with being over there and didnt like Bush... you wouldnt just stop fighting and doing your duty.

"No one is ever right about everything?" Saddam and Hitler GASSED women and children. Genocide is a little different than someone fighting a war.

[Mad Hatter]

Im Half african american and here is where i stand on the matter.

Obviously slavery is a bad thing, the civil war was fought to end it. The south lost, it ended there its done.

I have great admiration for General Lee, for a number of reasons. So i see no reason why a highschool shouldnt be named after him. Not to mention that the name Rebel is freaking sweet. And the song dixie is an awesome song to hear after you scroe a tough down.

however....

i do feel that waving a confederate flag around at a game is a different thing that is a symbol of racism to this day and should be left out.

[Lobo Dude]

Even trying to qualify or understand what Hitler did is beyond absurd.

I know and I realized that Hitler was just a crazy ba*turd and nothing can justify it. I'm just saying he THOUGHT it was right. But as the rest of the world knows... he was very very wrong.

[Lobo Dude]

"No one is ever right about everything?" Saddam and Hitler GASSED women and children. Genocide is a little different than someone fighting a war.

I never said it was the same thing... but a war came from it... I know the US didnt directly enter it because of Hitler... but we sure as hell ended it along with our Allies. I mean hate is a strong word and I am very close to hating Hitler and every other Nazi there has ever been... but I'm not gonna make a huge deal about it.

[concha]

It is all about symbolism.

If memory recalls, Lee was not strongly pro-slavery, he was simply a son of the South and a devout Christian. However, he is probably THE greatest human symbol of the pre-Emancipation South. And as symbols go, I would venture to say that only the Confederate flag might surpass him.

Slavery was only one of many reasons why the war was fought, and certainly not the primary one. But for a significant part of our population, the memory of the pre-war South and its symbols recall one memory above all others: the enslavement of their ancestors. Unfortunately, the fact is that by taking the post of general for the Army of Northern Virginia, Lee was in fact fighting to keep men enslaved, even if it was his true or primary reason for fighting.

I can easily see how people could call for the removal of his name from schools. Had he won, slavery could STILL exist in the South.


Sidenote: reading this thread reminds me of an African-American classmate of mine (in a Northern state, btw) whose name was Robert E. Lee (nicknamed "the General" on the football field).

[RockinL]

The War of Northern Aggression (Civil War), was about states rights, which included several issues, of which one was slavery.
Alot of people tend to forget or ignore that the NORTH also had slavery at one time.
Robert E. Lee was a great soilder. Political correctness and racial whining has tried to turn him into a monster.
I do believe that all people are created equal. I really do.
But the slavery and racism issue has become the mechanism by which some Americans garner freebies from the government. Personally, Im tired of footing the bill with my tax dollars for 14 year old girls to keep having babies.

I am a proud decendent of Conferderate soilders. I know my family history. Noone in my family ever owned slaves. They fought for what they believed was an intruding U.S. goverment.

We applaud what our forefathers did to the oppressive British government (who BTW did not oppose slavery), but some condem Confederates for those same beliefs. I dont owe anyone anything, except the same respect they give me.

Malcolm X was a militant who advocated violence against white people. He is not even in the same league with someone like RObert E. Lee or Martin Luther King. He was a convicted felon with a thug mentallity

Any black Americans want to comment on the BLACK African tribal leaders who sold thier own to slave traders? Noone ever wants to mention that.

BTW...I AM politically INCORRECT and proud of it.

[PackAttack2005]

You know slavery in the United States was abolished 140 years ago in 1865, we all can agree that slavery was a travasty and a terrible part of this countries history. Why not dicuss the disenbowelment of the American Indian nations? This stuff is endless.

Rocking L, some people can't handle the truth. Our kids will never know the real truth about history because we have changed it's context in the name of political correctness. Ask a young person today if they know who Francis Scott Key or Geroge Washington Carver were and what are they are known for in history. They probably can't tell you.

http://www.east-buc.k12.ia.us/00_01/BH/gwc/gwc.htm

http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anthem.html

As far as school names, I have no problem with a school named for Robert E. Lee or Martin Luther King, they were both men of integrity, I would have a problem with Malcom X or Lee Harvey Oswald or any other criminal factions name used for any public building.

Man, at this rate August and high school football can't get here quick enough, how bout them Panthers!

Actually Wide-E, I'm working on my spanish, se habla espanol ? ;)

[RidgePride]

Man, at this rate August and high school football can't get here quick enough, how bout them Panthers!




At least we can all agree with this statement!

[implacable44]

This is a tired ignorant thread. Race talk - race talk - I'm a victim - he's a victim - she's a victim. blah blah blah -

religion offends me -the color red offends me - your mascot offends me - blah blah blah -

lee offends me -- he represents slavery

martin luther king offends me - he represents adultery and hypocrisy

malcom X and Louis Farrakhan offend me with their anti-white rhetoric

what about the hispanics?

I am so tired off all the political correctness -- that is what truly offends me. People are allowed to have their own opinion - right or wrong - they are allowed to have it because of the soldiers who paid for that price of freedom with their lives. - black soldiers, white soldiers, hispanic soldiers, mixed race soldiers, native american soldiers - you name the race, creed, religion or ethnicity and someone representing them has helped pay for the freedom we enjoy with their blood. so you know what I say - Cowboy the hell up and if I catch a teacher using purple or green ink to correct my child's paper in school instead of red because it might hurt my child - there will be one less student in that class.

[RidgePride]

It is all about symbolism.

If memory recalls, Lee was not strongly pro-slavery, he was simply a son of the South and a devout Christian. However, he is probably THE greatest human symbol of the pre-Emancipation South. And as symbols go, I would venture to say that only the Confederate flag might surpass him.

Slavery was only one of many reasons why the war was fought, and certainly not the primary one. But for a significant part of our population, the memory of the pre-war South and its symbols recall one memory above all others: the enslavement of their ancestors. Unfortunately, the fact is that by taking the post of general for the Army of Northern Virginia, Lee was in fact fighting to keep men enslaved, even if it was his true or primary reason for fighting.

I can easily see how people could call for the removal of his name from schools. Had he won, slavery could STILL exist in the South.


Sidenote: reading this thread reminds me of an African-American classmate of mine (in a Northern state, btw) whose name was Robert E. Lee (nicknamed "the General" on the football field).


Concha - -You are now on my "good" list. You are well stated IMO.

Go Ohio football (except against Texas teams).

[PackAttack2005]

Come on football season!!! What's wrong with purple ink? :D

[pack0808]

i have went over this in another thread so i will not bother. i will just leave you with this thought!! political correctness is taking over the united states and we are becoming a wussified nation that is afraid to ever hurt anybody's feelings and some are willing to take american freedoms away in order to advance political correctness. groups like the aclu specialize in this. i will use a forest gump quote in closing. "that is all i have to say about that" :)

[KT2000]

Let's go football season, indeed!

Good post, Concha.

I don't think there is anything wrong with naming a school after a significant figure like Robert E. Lee. As far as I know, Lee wasn't a genocidal maniac like Hitler and Hussein so we'll leave those two Grade A wack jobs out of the conversation.

It's easy for us to look back say, "How could they be so stupid to advocate something like slavery and racism?" with the knowledge we have today, but think to be truly objective about it you have to try and put yourself in that particular time period. Attempt to understand what it might have been like as someone from the North or the South in that era of American history.

When Christopher Columbus "discovered America" (the Caribbean islands), he and his men slaughtered local tribes they ran into while searching the new lands because they were afraid of unknown sickness or disease they might acquire. However, that little fact didn't stop our country from crowning a Columbus Day to celebrate the discovery of the "new world"; or prevent our elementary kids from drawing pictures of him on his ship across the ocean in school and sing songs.

On a side note...explorer Amerigo Vespucci actually discovered, what is called today, the American continent and location of the Lower 48. Our country is named after him yet we don't have an Amerigo Vespucci Day. I don't remember learning about Vespucci until late high school or college...it was all about Columbus up until that point. His ride must not have been as fun as Columbus', or maybe it was because we couldn't find an English alternative for Amerigo Vespucci like we did for Christobal Colón (Columbus) :D .

Anyway, I digress, can't wait for 7 on 7 state championship and then the real stuff!

[pack0808]

quote from kt2000 It's easy for us to look back say, "How could they be so stupid to advocate something like slavery and racism?" with the knowledge we have today



i think one day we will say almost the same exact thing about the killing of innocent babies in our society, but that is a completely different subject i do not want to get into on this site. it is just simply amazing to me that the most compassionate, civilized, christian, and one of the most educated country in the world can still be or once was so barbaric. a few examples are slavery, racisim, and abortion. baffles the mind??

i agree, bring on the football season!!

[implacable44]

amen pack 08 - close the thread now - nuff said.

[dragonsdaddy]

amen pack.