PDA

View Full Version : Southlake Carroll Football - sure to be a big thread



Pages : [1] 2

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 08:13 AM
I try to follow Texas HS football as closely as any Floridian can. However, my insight and knowledge into certain programs is obviously limited.

So, my big question, which is sure to garner many replies, is...

...How on earth does Southlake Carroll HS go from being SO SO dominant in the State of Texas...to...well...a rather mediocre team that could be considered to be on the down slide?

Please educate me! :notworthy

dada
09-08-2010, 08:14 AM
coaching...and teams figuring out the offense.

AHSeagles
09-08-2010, 08:15 AM
No body stays on top forever.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 08:17 AM
Brett Shipp

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 08:28 AM
Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.

ray1301
09-08-2010, 08:36 AM
Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.

..and a decline in talent pool but I have faith that SLC will climb back up. Nobody stays on top forever. SLC was a powerhouse in 3A and 4A before becoming a 5A school. It spans over 25 years so yes they will have some rebuilding years.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 08:38 AM
..and a decline in talent pool but I have faith that SLC will climb back up. Nobody stays on top forever. SLC was a powerhouse in 3A and 4A before becoming a 5A school. It spans over 25 years so yes they will have some rebuilding years.

I would say TALENT more than coaching.

If we are going to call Carroll mediocre now then one has to do the same with Dodges coaching career. What's he up to now, 10 losing seasons compared to only 7 winning seasons as a HC?

ThEgReAtOnE
09-08-2010, 08:47 AM
Well...there has to be some reason for the decline. I mean...they went from staggeringly dominant in 5A football in TEXAS for God's sake...to just mediocre, and it basically happened over night.

I am just going to say it...Todd Dodge left and that was that. Prove me wrong.

There were several programs that were pretty dominant, while SLC was doing their thing (e.g. Katy, North Shore, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill... just to name a few!). SLC lost their #1 asset... Todd Dodge. The minute he hit the door, the program began to slide. Not knocking Wasson, but SLC has never been the same since TD left for UNT. The spread, the defense, the attitude, and much more were all different. Now, however, there are other communities that developed the spread attack and it's beginning to show (e.g. Lake Travis and Allen) dividends.

Simply put, coaching means a ton more at the HS level than at the collegiate and NFL level. Why? because the student-athletes in HS are still - for the most part - far under-developed. You can win, athletically, in college (e.g. FSU, Miami, Florida, Texas, USC, Oklahoma, etc.) but not so much in HS (e.g. Dallas Carter, East Texas teams like John Tyler, Longview, North Shore, Skyline, Desoto... all teams that have had hoss of athletic teams, in the last 10 years and been ousted in the playoffs). Don't take this the wrong way, but it's almost the opposite in Florida. Why? Because most great Florida teams are essentially All-Star teams, comprised of a TON of D1 athletes. Here, in Texas, it's more about coaching, and community guidance than just plain athleticism... as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD annually potrays.

SLC went through a period of being the new kid on the block w/ a HC who had an enormous appetite for destroying opponents and a community that believed in him and what he was doing. When he left, the backbone of what made SLC so special left with him. Not many SLC'ers will admit it, but it's the truth. I suspect if he ever came back, SLC would rise again.

Outside of all that I've said, even if TD never came back, SLC is still going to be a contender for a good playoff run, annually or bi-annually. Great pedigree in that community.

LR46
09-08-2010, 08:47 AM
Like the economy HS teams have their ups and downs. Look at Odessa Permian, Plano Wildcats, South Lake Carroll and it may even happen to Trinity some year(s). It's just the way it is and for all of the other reasons already stated.

SLC will be back. Plano has had some good years the past 2 or 3 but were down for quite a while bfore that. After their all world player Rex Burkhead left a couple of years ago, that hurt and after building Plano West Senior High (3rd Sr HS in Plano) it spread the talent pool out.

This is a growing areal, even in this sucky economy and new HS's are being built still and kids get shuffled of to new schools. That's one of the major reasons right there.

That's not so much the case for Carroll but I do agree that it is because of the coaching change and many, many of the horses they had aren't there anymore.

KT2000
09-08-2010, 08:48 AM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 08:53 AM
There were several programs that were pretty dominant, while SLC was doing their thing (e.g. Katy, North Shore, Euless Trinity, and Cedar Hill... just to name a few!). SLC lost their #1 asset... Todd Dodge. The minute he hit the door, the program began to slide. Not knocking Wasson, but SLC has never been the same since TD left for UNT. The spread, the defense, the attitude, and much more were all different. Now, however, there are other communities that developed the spread attack and it's beginning to show (e.g. Lake Travis and Allen) dividends.

Simply put, coaching means a ton more at the HS level than at the collegiate and NFL level. Why? because the student-athletes in HS are still - for the most part - far under-developed. You can win, athletically, in college (e.g. FSU, Miami, Florida, Texas, USC, Oklahoma, etc.) but not so much in HS (e.g. Dallas Carter, East Texas teams like John Tyler, Longview, North Shore, Skyline, Desoto... all teams that have had hoss of athletic teams, in the last 10 years and been ousted in the playoffs). Don't take this the wrong way, but it's almost the opposite in Florida. Why? Because most great Florida teams are essentially All-Star teams, comprised of a TON of D1 athletes. Here, in Texas, it's more about coaching, and community guidance than just plain athleticism... as Houston ISD and Dallas ISD annually potrays.

SLC went through a period of being the new kid on the block w/ a HC who had an enormous appetite for destroying opponents and a community that believed in him and what he was doing. When he left, the backbone of what made SLC so special left with him. Not many SLC'ers will admit it, but it's the truth. I suspect if he ever came back, SLC would rise again.

Outside of all that I've said, even if TD never came back, SLC is still going to be a contender for a good playoff run, annually or bi-annually. Great pedigree in that community.

This!

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 08:58 AM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

:)

twcpfan1
09-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Defense - It's the most glaring decline.

No Riley Dodge. No Chase. No McElroy. They don't come around that often.

Spread offense - Every defense in Texas practices against it now.

All in all, I'd say it's 75% talent or lack of it. 25% Coaching.

There'll eventually be one year when the talent and coaching will align perfectly. I would not worry about it. They'll be ok.

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 09:04 AM
Well...it's just a few more months before Todd Dodge is back at Southlake Carroll anyway.

North Texas is going nowhere this year, and Todd Dodge will be let go.

Which, of course, after Southlake Carroll has another mediocre year will mean...

DODGE IS BACK AT SLC! :yes:

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 09:05 AM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:07 AM
as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.

No doubt the man had a great run at Carroll but why was it only Carroll that he saw success? He never enjoyed it at Yoe or Smith or FRidge or UNT. I firmly believe the kids he had to work with at Carroll made TD into the legend he became not the other way around. He had an unGodly amount of talent at his hands to work with and it paid big dividends for him

MALAMEDICINA
09-08-2010, 09:09 AM
Before you know it, SLC will rise again, and take on everyone like they used to. DFW misses that kind of offense they had, and Im sure here soon, they will have a a group of kids come up, and take the focus away from the questionable coaching, and take upon themselves to give us an Air-Show.

Although we need a good running team to help us take care of these new offenses popping everywhere. How would they look as a power running team??? :)

KT2000
09-08-2010, 09:14 AM
Spread offense - Every defense in Texas practices against it now.

Nobody runs it like Carroll did. I haven't seen anyone close. Attitude is a big part of this game and that is what Dodge gave Carroll.

JagDad07
09-08-2010, 09:14 AM
The primary reason has to be the coaching. Program stend to rise and fall with their coaching. Abilene, Arlington Bowie and Cedar Hill are programs that were average to bad for decades - the right group of coaches came in and now they're on top most years. When their coaches leave, they will have to find someone just as good or they will fall off again as well.

As to whether TD comes back to Carroll - I doubt if he'd want to. I said it here when he left that he needed to be a college coordinator first and was roundly booed down by the Carroll fans. I have once again been proven right. He STILL needs to go somewhere and be a coordinator.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 09:22 AM
No doubt the man had a great run at Carroll but why was it only Carroll that he saw success? He never enjoyed it at Yoe or Smith or FRidge or UNT. I firmly believe the kids he had to work with at Carroll made TD into the legend he became not the other way around. He had an unGodly amount of talent at his hands to work with and it paid big dividends for him

his talent was very good, maybe great, for a suburbian school. it was probably better than the d-1 #s prove early on, as several on the 02 team might well have been d-1 had they been in year 4 not year 1. but if talent alone was to explain td/slc's success, why didn't more talent rich schools of which there were many, not win a single title? you know the answer.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 09:25 AM
The primary reason has to be the coaching. Program stend to rise and fall with their coaching. Abilene, Arlington Bowie and Cedar Hill are programs that were average to bad for decades - the right group of coaches came in and now they're on top most years. When their coaches leave, they will have to find someone just as good or they will fall off again as well.

As to whether TD comes back to Carroll - I doubt if he'd want to. I said it here when he left that he needed to be a college coordinator first and was roundly booed down by the Carroll fans. I have once again been proven right. He STILL needs to go somewhere and be a coordinator again.
fify

check his resume, and you'll see that check is in the box.

twcpfan1
09-08-2010, 09:25 AM
Nobody runs it like Carroll did. I haven't seen anyone close. Attitude is a big part of this game and that is what Dodge gave Carroll.

Also helped that they had Dodge/Newton ; McElroy/Newton and Daniel/Luna back there. Without those guys in the backfield, they would have been a little easier to defend, no matter who was coaching them.

But that's just me.

KT2000
09-08-2010, 09:27 AM
Also helped that they had Dodge/Newton ; McElroy/Newton and Daniel/Luna back there. Without those guys in the backfield, they would have been a little easier to defend, no matter who was coaching them.

But that's just me.

That goes without saying, but credit also goes to the men who developed their talents to flourish in such a system- Dodge and co.

TrojanHorse03
09-08-2010, 09:28 AM
It's 2 things for me. 1st, there was not as much of a difference between top teams in Texas each year and Southlake during the streak as some possibly think and Dodge for that program and community>>>Wasson.

twcpfan1
09-08-2010, 09:29 AM
That goes without saying, but credit also goes to the men who developed their talents to flourish in such a system- Dodge and co.

Yeah extra props to him for helping produce his son, without a doubt, one of the best HS players of all time. That kid was special.

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 09:29 AM
That goes without saying, but credit also goes to the men who developed their talents to flourish in such a system- Dodge and co.

And, let's not forget...Southlake Carroll didn't just win...the dominated in a state where one team just doesn't dominate like SLC did. It was simply AMAZING what they did!

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:32 AM
his talent was very good, maybe great, for a suburbian school. it was probably better than the d-1 #s prove early on, as several on the 02 team might well have been d-1 had they been in year 4 not year 1. but if talent alone was to explain td/slc's success, why didn't more talent rich schools of which there were many, not win a single title? you know the answer.

So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

KT2000
09-08-2010, 09:35 AM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

Real estate law applies. Location, location, location. Right man in the right spot.

Dodge is not the first multi-championship coach to have not won trophies at every stop.

TrojanHorse03
09-08-2010, 09:36 AM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

I've personally felt it was a combination of those programs mostly haven't been that good without Dodge and a big part that Dodge was at none of those places more than 2 years but you disagree.

Fleeman93
09-08-2010, 09:37 AM
To me it is all about execution. Under Dodge those teams executed damn near flawlessly and as we all know ANY offense that executes flawlessly is all but impossible to stop. Of course the players have a lot to do with being able to execute at that level but to me the coaching and system have a bigger part to play in it.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:37 AM
Real estate law applies. Location, location, location. Right man in the right spot.

Dodge is not the first multi-championship coach to have not won trophies at every stop.

KT
I am not talking trophies to define success. I am simply saying you would think 1 winning record or just 1 playoff apperance would have happend and it never did.

OakTreeUp-n-Out
09-08-2010, 09:38 AM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

Isn't the obvious answer that it's a little of both? Dodge is a good coach with a style that was a great fit at SLC but not great enough to have an SLC-esque run elsewhere with a different roster makeup, SLC has a lot of talent but not so much that they're going to have an SLC-esque run without a very good coach and luck with injuries? Too much black & white'ing going on in here.

twcpfan1
09-08-2010, 09:41 AM
Well I'm glad we found a thread to keep us amused until Friday. :D

KT2000
09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
KT
I am not talking trophies to define success. I am simply saying you would think 1 winning record or just 1 playoff apperance would have happend and it never did.

Who knows? Coaching is a big piece of the puzzle, but it is not the only piece. It takes a strong community to build success of any kind.

Wasn't Fossil Ridge a brand new school when he was coaching there?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
The primary reason has to be the coaching. Program stend to rise and fall with their coaching. Abilene, Arlington Bowie and Cedar Hill are programs that were average to bad for decades - the right group of coaches came in and now they're on top most years. When their coaches leave, they will have to find someone just as good or they will fall off again as well.

As to whether TD comes back to Carroll - I doubt if he'd want to. I said it here when he left that he needed to be a college coordinator first and was roundly booed down by the Carroll fans. I have once again been proven right. He STILL needs to go somewhere and be a coordinator.

I would agree with that assessment, BUT; if you were in Dodge's shoes, offered a HC position so close you could continue to see your son play his senior year, daughter stays in the same school district, more than triple your salary, move into the next level, and (hopefully) recruit from kids in the area that knew what you were capable of, it seems an obvious choice.

I repeat: I do not see Dodge coming back to HS football. He is plenty capable of being a college coach. I see him going to someplace like SMU/UofH/ where there is offensive firepower and working as an assistant for some period of time, perhaps a WR or QB coach. Then on to an OC position somewhere. He does have UT roots, don't forget that.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:44 AM
Isn't the obvious answer that it's a little of both? Dodge is a good coach with a style that was a great fit at SLC but not great enough to have an SLC-esque run elsewhere with a different roster makeup, SLC has a lot of talent but not so much that they're going to have an SLC-esque run without a very good coach and luck with injuries? Too much black & white'ing going on in here.

Who's talking about a SLC-esque run elsewhere? just make the playoffs and have 1 winning record.

OakTreeUp-n-Out
09-08-2010, 09:45 AM
Who's talking about a SLC-esque run elsewhere? just make the playoffs and have 1 winning record.

So before I proceed - is it your opinion that Dodge is an average coach? Below average? Slightly above average? Just another guy?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:46 AM
Who knows? Coaching is a big piece of the puzzle, but it is not the only piece. It takes a strong community to build success of any kind.

Wasn't Fossil Ridge a brand new school when he was coaching there?

First varsity season was 1997 I believe. He arrived in '98 or '99. What about Newman Smith or Cameron Yoe? Both of those schools had been around a while.

I love how somehow we always have to say, its the community, its the coaching, its the work ethic but dont you dare mention that the talent might have been the biggest factor of all

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:47 AM
So before I proceed - is it your opinion that Dodge is an average coach? Below average? Slightly above average? Just another guy?

Would you say the Carroll program is now mediocre?

I think based on the results he has had elsewhere and considering the talent he had at Carroll he would be be slightly above average.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 09:48 AM
KT
I am not talking trophies to define success. I am simply saying you would think 1 winning record or just 1 playoff apperance would have happend and it never did.

just how well any of those teams had done before he got there is out of my pay grade to remember, but i know fridge had never won and certainly n-s has never been anything but a home coming opponent. c-y is, well, it is down towadrs c-s, but that is as much as i know about them. at least at c-y he had only 1 po spot available.

your devil's advocate spot is possibly going to get more strident after my owls take the m-g to 0-2 this weekend. are you going?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 09:50 AM
Would you say the Carroll program is now mediocre?

I think based on the results he has had elsewhere and considering the talent he had at Carroll he would be be slightly above average.

Hmmm. So what is the measure that should be commonly applied to determine if a coach is top notch or not? Suceess at different levels and at different schools? How does that apply to a Coach Joseph then at Katy for example?

What are the criteria you are using to define quality coaching?

KT2000
09-08-2010, 09:50 AM
I love how somehow we always have to say, its the community, its the coaching, its the work ethic but dont you dare mention that the talent might have been the biggest factor of all

I'm not saying talent is irrelevant. Not at all. However, talent clearly needs direction (among other things) in order to flourish so I do not see it as the most important factor.

If it was an annual talent contest, DeSoto would have more gold than King Tut.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 09:52 AM
First varsity season was 1997 I believe. He arrived in '98 or '99. What about Newman Smith or Cameron Yoe? Both of those schools had been around a while.

I love how somehow we always have to say, its the community, its the coaching, its the work ethic but dont you dare mention that the talent might have been the biggest factor of all

they have always played in games where the average halftime is quite a bit longer that almost any other area team, if that is any indication. and their only potential sure win is cross-town rlt. nuf said.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 09:58 AM
just how well any of those teams had done before he got there is out of my pay grade to remember, but i know fridge had never won and certainly n-s has never been anything but a home coming opponent. c-y is, well, it is down towadrs c-s, but that is as much as i know about them. at least at c-y he had only 1 po spot available.

your devil's advocate spot is possibly going to get more strident after my owls take the m-g to 0-2 this weekend. are you going?

No sir. I should but I am not. Going to help SWM daugther move and then camp out on my sofa and watch all sorts of good CFB.


FRidge won their first game in 1997. I believe it was a week after Liberty beat them in OT. Dodge leaves and finally under Olivio FRidge goes to the playoffs for the first time under in 2001 I believe where they made a great run to the semis. Once again, a pretty talented team led by Michael DuPreiest and Zach Dahaman

NS well see the dragon thread

CY has had some decent teams before. By no means a great program but I am sure they had made the playoffs prior to Dodges arrival ad sicne his departure

crunked9
09-08-2010, 09:59 AM
SLC won in 2002 for one reason and one reason only.......

B.D. Baines!

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:01 AM
Hmmm. So what is the measure that should be commonly applied to determine if a coach is top notch or not? Suceess at different levels and at different schools? How does that apply to a Coach Joseph then at Katy for example?

What are the criteria you are using to define quality coaching?

See that is kind of what I am getting at. We are so quick to annoint Dodge but I say Dodge was made by the kids at Carroll.
I would think at least in other stops you would have produced a winning record, right?

Joseph was a long time assistant at Katy and the only place he has been. I am on record for saying that is why I would give Lineweaver the nod over Joseph when we would get into the best coaches discussion based on what Lineweaver was able to do at Commerce and Trinity.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:02 AM
they have always played in games where the average halftime is quite a bit longer that almost any other area team, if that is any indication. and their only potential sure win is cross-town rlt. nuf said.

They finally went 4 rounds deep just a year ago and gave that 'powerhouse' Longview all they could handle :D

LR46
09-08-2010, 10:04 AM
Look at teh other perinniaL powers in Texas Football and since I'm a north Texan, I'm sure I'll leave some of the SA and Houston schools out and aks the same questions or try to analyze the same answers:

Permian

Plano

Highland Park (well we know why here, they have a secret cloning lab)

Abilene

Trinity

and the list could go on. And since I'm really in the peanut gallery compared to the most learned on this forum, I would not attempt to disect the reasons for winning championships and being dominant like the above schools . . . except for the obvious that has already been mentioned about SLC.

But what were and are the main reasons these schools were as dominant as they were and still are? I kinda know (the obvious) but will sit back and watch the real knowledge here go to work.

And yes it is nice to have a thread of interest until this weekend. Trinity plays Saturday.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm not saying talent is irrelevant. Not at all. However, talent clearly needs direction (among other things) in order to flourish so I do not see it as the most important factor.
If it was an annual talent contest, DeSoto would have more gold than King Tut.

I would disagree with that. Brian Erwin is a good coach, right?

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 10:04 AM
Hmmm. So what is the measure that should be commonly applied to determine if a coach is top notch or not? Suceess at different levels and at different schools? How does that apply to a Coach Joseph then at Katy for example?

What are the criteria you are using to define quality coaching?

Measuring quality coaching is really, really tough in high school because just like at every level...you HAVE TO have talent to win...at least SOME talent.

The bottom line is that you HAVE TO have some talent and you HAVE TO have good coaches coaching that talent in order to win. So, it is safe to say that Todd Dodge is a great HS coach and he had a lot of talent. And, again, I would point to the fact that SLC didn't just win...they set staggering records.

Here's what will ultimately answer whether Dodge is magical or not...WHEN HE RETURNS TO SLC...we'll see how he does!!! :heli:

GBMonster76
09-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Look at teh other perinniaL powers in Texas Football and since I'm a north Texan, I'm sure I'll leave some of the SA and Houston schools out and aks the same questions or try to analyze the same answers:

Permian

Plano

Highland Park (well we know why here, they have a secret cloning lab)

Abilene

Trinity

and the list could go on. And since I'm really in the peanut gallery compared to the most learned on this forum, I would not attempt to disect the reasons for winning championships and being dominant like the above schools . . . except for the obvious that has already been mentioned about SLC.

But what were and are the main reasons these schools were as dominant as they were and still are? I kinda know (the obvious) but will sit back and watch the real knowledge here go to work.

And yes it is nice to have a thread of interest until this weekend. Trinity plays Saturday.

Trinity can thank the tiny isle of Tonga for their dominance. The story of how the Tongans have immigrated to the DFW area in Euless so they can mostly work at the airport to bring relatives in...well...is just incredibly interesting, cool, and cool.

LR46
09-08-2010, 10:09 AM
Trinity can thank the tiny isle of Tonga for their dominance. The story of how the Tongans have immigrated to the DFW area in Euless so they can mostly work at the airport to bring relatives in...well...is just incredibly interesting, cool, and cool.

Partially agree but Tongans aren't born with a football in their hands , , , even here in Euless. Besides as far as a dominant race if we need to go there . . . there are 100 fold more African American HS football players on many, many schools in this area and around the state and country . . . that can dominate as much or more than the Tongans. Then again those schools still don't have the reps of the schools here we are talking about.

It's been said many times in the past, but the main difference in top notch Texas HS Football is that "It's about the team, not the individual star players". And not many exemplify this better than Lineweaver. Stressing the team more than the stars, to me, is the difference we are looking for.

FatBoy of Troy
09-08-2010, 10:09 AM
In regards to players, parents, fans "buying in to a new coach and his system"... here's a little tidbit to chew on.

Hypothetically... could Steve Lineweaver step into the HC position at Carroll and turn them into a power like the past Dragon teams? He has a 180 degree philosophy of football and player motivation than Dodge... or Wasson for that matter. Would Carroll players, parents, or fans buy into a grinding power I running game instead of a wide open exciting, lightning strike air attack? Would the players, parents and fans buy into the team singing motivational songs like "High Hopes", "What a Wonderful World, or "Lean on Me"... or would they blow it off as something silly?

I'm throwing this out there just for discussion about coaching changes. Are they always the answer?? Wasson was an assistant at Carroll under Dodge. So, theoretically he knows the Carroll system and should be able to step right in and continue to shovel coal right into a running engine... right???

Pete Gee was Trinity's DC under Lineweaver for the 2005 state championship team. Coach Gee knows how Lineweaver puts together a championship caliber program. Gee took the HC job at Terrell the following year. He tried to turn them around... but was gone after two seasons. I read their blogs and boards during his tenure as HC and ran across statements like "He's not a head coach, he wants to be their freind". "He's too freindly and not hard enough on these boys". Gee tried to use the Lineweaver approach to motivating his players. He's the nice guy and the guy that builds them back up. He leaves the yelling to his assistants. Obviously the Terrell players, parents and fans didn't buy into his (Lineweaver) philosophy.

In the three years my son played at Trinity I saw Lineweaver raise his voice one time. The team was coming out to the practice field and they stopped and started lollygagging, talking to a bunch of girls. Coach yelled "GET DOWN HERE... NOW!!!! All you could see and hear was hair flying and cleats clicking across asphalt like a hard rain on a tin roof.

Are kids different from school to school, socio-economic areas? Bowie and Cedar Hill kids have responded well to Kenny Perry and Joey MacGuire's hard as nails coaching philosophies. How would Carroll players, parents and fans respond to that approach... or Trinity for that matter.

If Steve Lineweaver ever retires from Trinity... it will be a citywide day of mourning!!:(

These are just my thoughts. I'm tired of typing now.;)

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 10:11 AM
Measuring quality coaching is really, really tough in high school because just like at every level...you HAVE TO have talent to win...at least SOME talent.

The bottom line is that you HAVE TO have some talent and you HAVE TO have good coaches coaching that talent in order to win. So, it is safe to say that Todd Dodge is a great HS coach and he had a lot of talent. And, again, I would point to the fact that SLC didn't just win...they set staggering records.

Here's what will ultimately answer whether Dodge is magical or not...WHEN HE RETURNS TO SLC...we'll see how he does!!! :heli:

Do you know something the rest of us don't?

Fleeman93
09-08-2010, 10:13 AM
To me it is a lot easier for talent to make a coach look good than it is a coach to make players/a team look good. A good coach will sustain success but talent will come and go. There are examples every year of programs that have unusual talent come through that elevate the program on the state level and once that talent leaves the program returns to a more normal level (sorry guys but Falls 05 and 06 comes to mind). There is no disputing that Dodge had talent when he was at SLC but he didn't have more talent then Trinity or Lufkin or DeSoto or Cedar Hill, etc, but he did have some solid talent in very key positions like QB. A good question would be, if Dodge had not been at SLC from 2002-2006 do they still win 4 titles?

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 10:13 AM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

Here we go again, not you personally. TD was not successful before he got to Carroll, no one argues that. A couple different factors. First of all he was not running the spread and those programs also did not have dominant programs in the past as we did with Ledbetter. Remember Ledbetter hand picked Todd so he must have known something.
Was the talent better then, sure, but how much of that talent was created by Dodge and entire program. If Chase Daniel stayed living in Irving is it your thoughts he would have developed into a Heisman finalist? If Greg McElroy played at Fossil Ridge he would have been the QB for a national championship team at Alabama?
If McKay Jacobsen had gone to Trinity would he have been a nationally recruited WR etc etc etc. I think we know the answers. For whatever reason he clicked with our group of kids. You cannot compare DI college to high school. Was it a good move for him, not for me to answer.
Why are the number of players that come out for football lower and the drop off from Freshmen to Senior year significantly higher now.
Why did the talent drop off so much? Did our demographics change?
I can go on for hours. You do not think Dodge was a great high school coach and you are entitled to your opinion. He developed talent and got the most out of every kid whether a starter or scout team player and they all were made to feel just as important.
TD's last year in '06 how many seniors were on that team, I am guessing 50 or more, this year were are around 25.
Under 100 kids for Freshmen football now when there used to be 150 plus.
The entire program has changed.

twcpfan1
09-08-2010, 10:14 AM
For the record, Pacific Islanders are good in all forms of contact football. They play at its highest level in every country that plays it.

MALAMEDICINA
09-08-2010, 10:18 AM
Well if he does come back, Get your popcorn ready!!!! the Torchin will begin than. I hope so, because we want a rematch.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:20 AM
Here we go again, not you personally. TD was not successful before he got to Carroll, no one argues that. A couple different factors. First of all he was not running the spread and those programs also did not have dominant programs in the past as we did with Ledbetter. Remember Ledbetter hand picked Todd so he must have known something.
Was the talent better then, sure, but how much of that talent was created by Dodge and entire program. If Chase Daniel stayed living in Irving is it your thoughts he would have developed into a Heisman finalist? If Greg McElroy played at Fossil Ridge he would have been the QB for a national championship team at Alabama?
If McKay Jacobsen had gone to Trinity would he have been a nationally recruited WR etc etc etc. I think we know the answers. For whatever reason he clicked with our group of kids. You cannot compare DI college to high school. Was it a good move for him, not for me to answer.
Why are the number of players that come out for football lower and the drop off from Freshmen to Senior year significantly higher now.
Why did the talent drop off so much? Did our demographics change?
I can go on for hours. You do not think Dodge was a great high school coach and you are entitled to your opinion. He developed talent and got the most out of every kid whether a starter or scout team player and they all were made to feel just as important.
TD's last year in '06 how many seniors were on that team, I am guessing 50 or more, this year were are around 25.
Under 100 kids for Freshmen football now when there used to be 150 plus.
The entire program has changed.


So Dodge blessed McElory with the arm and brains he had? I was told that Greg was a stud as a JR High QB and I doubt Dodge was workign with them then.
Did Dodge teac Cantu and Jacobson and Smiter and Fentris and Chandler how to run fast, catch balls and be 6'5?
Did Dodge see to it that Luna would be a very talented indidual and bless him with an ability to run the ball and block and play smar the way he did? Did Dodge have something to do with the genes given to Tre Newtwon and the pedigree that came with his name?

McElory had to wait his time out at Bama and chances are if he were at FRidge or Carroll would have been offered. Same with Jacobson simply due to his speed and athleticisim. While Dodge helped to shape those kids to fit into his system and he did a godo job, some of you people think he walked on water and can't explain his lack of success elsewhere other than he cuaght lightning in a bottle at Carroll.

pied
09-08-2010, 10:21 AM
Trinity can thank the tiny isle of Tonga for their dominance. The story of how the Tongans have immigrated to the DFW area in Euless so they can mostly work at the airport to bring relatives in...well...is just incredibly interesting, cool, and cool.

Yes, but they have been there for years. Trinity has been a very good and average program during that time. They only started winning titles after Lineweaver got there.

FatBoy of Troy
09-08-2010, 10:23 AM
To me it is a lot easier for talent to make a coach look good than it is a coach to make players/a team look good. A good coach will sustain success but talent will come and go. There are examples every year of programs that have unusual talent come through that elevate the program on the state level and once that talent leaves the program returns to a more normal level (sorry guys but Falls 05 and 06 comes to mind). There is no disputing that Dodge had talent when he was at SLC but he didn't have more talent then Trinity or Lufkin or DeSoto or Cedar Hill, etc, but he did have some solid talent in very key positions like QB. A good question would be, if Dodge had not been at SLC from 2002-2006 do they still win 4 titles?
I agree. But why does LD Bell continue to play like... well... LD Bell. I've seen a lot of talented kids go through there in the past few years. The old adage of "Trinity's got all the Tongans" doesn't hold water anymore. There are a lot of Tongan families living in Hurst now and Bell has plenty of Tongan players.

Had Bell kept the ball on the ground last week and kept the ball in that running back of theirs hands, I believe they could have beaten Carroll soundly. But...what do I know?

JagJagua
09-08-2010, 10:25 AM
To the gReatone:

Well, You have that a bit wrong. JT was dominent and won 1 but went to 2 state championships. Not to mention the loss's in the semi-finals. Longview went the last 2 years, and lost to maybe one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the state. Lake travis.. And before our short 2 year stint in 4a we had gone to state championship and lost to Katy as SLC guys had done. One of those years..

Lufkin won a championship .Tyler Lee has a championship, Marshall has went 2 years in a row and lost.. You see winning the big game is the goal. Buy getting there is a great task in it's own right..

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 10:28 AM
So Dodge blessed McElory with the arm and brains he had? I was told that Greg was a stud as a JR High QB and I doubt Dodge was workign with them then.
Did Dodge teac Cantu and Jacobson and Smiter and Fentris and Chandler how to run fast, catch balls and be 6'5?
Did Dodge see to it that Luna would be a very talented indidual and bless him with an ability to run the ball and block and play smar the way he did? Did Dodge have something to do with the genes given to Tre Newtwon and the pedigree that came with his name?

McElory had to wait his time out at Bama and chances are if he were at FRidge or Carroll would have been offered. Same with Jacobson simply due to his speed and athleticisim. While Dodge helped to shape those kids to fit into his system and he did a godo job, some of you people think he walked on water and can't explain his lack of success elsewhere other than he cuaght lightning in a bottle at Carroll.

His system fit our what our kids were best to do. The best person to ask is Ledbetter, why was he hand picked when he had no record of success? His first couple of years as Carroll were nothing fantastic. What Todd was able to do was create TEAM me and have teenagers believe it and not just saying it, protecting the tradition meant something and was not just a saying and that goes beyond X's and O's he was a great leader of teenage men. Which to me is much more important than winning football games.
Do I think we would have been more successful over the past 3 years had he been here, the answer is yes. Do I think we would have won state the past 3 years, no.

JagDad07
09-08-2010, 10:29 AM
I would agree with that assessment, BUT; if you were in Dodge's shoes, offered a HC position so close you could continue to see your son play his senior year, daughter stays in the same school district, more than triple your salary, move into the next level, and (hopefully) recruit from kids in the area that knew what you were capable of, it seems an obvious choice.

I repeat: I do not see Dodge coming back to HS football. He is plenty capable of being a college coach. I see him going to someplace like SMU/UofH/ where there is offensive firepower and working as an assistant for some period of time, perhaps a WR or QB coach. Then on to an OC position somewhere. He does have UT roots, don't forget that.

Don't blame him one bit for trying. Agree 100% with everything you said.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:33 AM
His system fit our what our kids were best to do. The best person to ask is Ledbetter, why was he hand picked when he had no record of success? His first couple of years as Carroll were nothing fantastic. What Todd was able to do was create TEAM me and have teenagers believe it and not just saying it, protecting the tradition meant something and was not just a saying and that goes beyond X's and O's he was a great leader of teenage men. Which to me is much more important than winning football games.
Do I think we would have been more successful over the past 3 years had he been here, the answer is yes. Do I think we would have won state the past 3 years, no.

You have been successful the last 3 years already. Thats part of the problem man, you think by going 11-2 its not successful or it is somehow a slap to the program. I think the fact that Hal has gone 11-2, 2 different times speaks volumes about the mans character and his ability to overcome some pretty unruly and hostile fans who have no clue what they are talking about other than they think they are entitled to go 16-0 every year.

Dodge's first year at Carroll was the most successful he had ever had as a HC prior to coming to Carroll and since leaving. Just please, explain to me how we are suppose to believe he is a great coach when he couldn't even get to the playoffs or produce a winning record at any other stop? Dont feed us this, Ledbetter had already est the program stuff either because when you do, you are then saying Dodges success was a product of an already est program.

HebronHawk
09-08-2010, 10:34 AM
Well...it's just a few more months before Todd Dodge is back at Southlake Carroll anyway.

North Texas is going nowhere this year, and Todd Dodge will be let go.

Which, of course, after Southlake Carroll has another mediocre year will mean...

DODGE IS BACK AT SLC! :yes:

Will he want to repeat at SLC or try a new challenge at a different HS?

cougmantx
09-08-2010, 10:34 AM
In regards to players, parents, fans "buying in to a new coach and his system"... here's a little tidbit to chew on.

Hypothetically... could Steve Lineweaver step into the HC position at Carroll and turn them into a power like the past Dragon teams? He has a 180 degree philosophy of football and player motivation than Dodge... or Wasson for that matter. Would Carroll players, parents, or fans buy into a grinding power I running game instead of a wide open exciting, lightning strike air attack? Would the players, parents and fans buy into the team singing motivational songs like "High Hopes", "What a Wonderful World, or "Lean on Me"... or would they blow it off as something silly?

I'm throwing this out there just for discussion about coaching changes. Are they always the answer?? Wasson was an assistant at Carroll under Dodge. So, theoretically he knows the Carroll system and should be able to step right in and continue to shovel coal right into a running engine... right???

Pete Gee was Trinity's DC under Lineweaver for the 2005 state championship team. Coach Gee knows how Lineweaver puts together a championship caliber program. Gee took the HC job at Terrell the following year. He tried to turn them around... but was gone after two seasons. I read their blogs and boards during his tenure as HC and ran across statements like "He's not a head coach, he wants to be their freind". "He's too freindly and not hard enough on these boys". Gee tried to use the Lineweaver approach to motivating his players. He's the nice guy and the guy that builds them back up. He leaves the yelling to his assistants. Obviously the Terrell players, parents and fans didn't buy into his (Lineweaver) philosophy.

In the three years my son played at Trinity I saw Lineweaver raise his voice one time. The team was coming out to the practice field and they stopped and started lollygagging, talking to a bunch of girls. Coach yelled "GET DOWN HERE... NOW!!!! All you could see and hear was hair flying and cleats clicking across asphalt like a hard rain on a tin roof.

Are kids different from school to school, socio-economic areas? Bowie and Cedar Hill kids have responded well to Kenny Perry and Joey MacGuire's hard as nails coaching philosophies. How would Carroll players, parents and fans respond to that approach... or Trinity for that matter.

If Steve Lineweaver ever retires from Trinity... it will be a citywide day of mourning!!:(

These are just my thoughts. I'm tired of typing now.;)

There is a lot more here then mets the eye I think. A comparison at the college level could be June Jones which also had a large number of Togan players and his coaching style. I personally don't know any Togans but it strikes me they play for each other because there is a common bond and community. Many of the more suburban teams where families have moved in because of social economic reasons (and yes Farmer, some moved to play football) may not have the same bonds. With SLC, Dodge understood his players in a way other coaches may not while LW understands the Togan and Trinity players and coaches in a way that may not work outside that community.

Katy is some what along the same lines. Old town, deep rooted community that loves it football with a mixture of urban but settled families meets a more rural tradition of rice farming and railroad. Coach J seems to have found a balance and his long standing dedication to the community helps the players and the parents buy into the system.

KT2000
09-08-2010, 10:34 AM
I would disagree with that. Brian Erwin is a good coach, right?

Erwin did very well at La Marque, but different factors are in play at every stop. You can't tell me he's working with scraps at Marcus. I've watched Marcus with you a couple of times and there is talent in that program. It isn't La Marque level talent, but Marcus does have a history of producing very good football players. Marcus also has a strong community. I don't know what is missing from the puzzle there because it would appear they've got a chance to do something with a championship level coach. I know Marcus is still in rebuilding mode after some lean years earlier in the 00s.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Erwin did very well at La Marque, but different factors are in play at every stop. You can't tell me he's working with scraps at Marcus. I've watched Marcus with you a couple of times and there is talent in that program. It isn't La Marque level talent, but Marcus does have a history of producing very good football players. Marcus also has a strong community. I don't know what is missing from the puzzle there because it would appear they've got a chance to do something with a championship level coach. I know Marcus is still in rebuilding mode after some lean years earlier in the 00s.

What was the biggest weakness in the Marcus team you and I saw last year?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 10:38 AM
what was the biggest weakness in the marcus team you and i saw last year?

db.

KT2000
09-08-2010, 10:40 AM
Trinity can thank the tiny isle of Tonga for their dominance. The story of how the Tongans have immigrated to the DFW area in Euless so they can mostly work at the airport to bring relatives in...well...is just incredibly interesting, cool, and cool.

I would say this is an oversimplification, but obviously don't blame you for having this view as that is how it is portrayed on TV as a result of the Haka. Trinity benefits from a diverse community as a whole and Tongan influence is one part.

As hawaiian noted yesterday, Trinity has also benefitted from African immigrants, African-Americans and Latinos as well. It is truly a multi-cultural school.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:42 AM
db.

Bingo. THe kids had heart and they had coaching but they did not have size or speed and that got them in trouble. Imagine how good that Marcus team could have been with some talented DB's or receivers

KT2000
09-08-2010, 10:42 AM
What was the biggest weakness in the Marcus team you and I saw last year?

Aside from the secondary last year, the biggest weakness I noticed the last two years was the lack of a clearly defined approach on offense. They were caught in the No Man's Land between shotgun football and power football.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 10:43 AM
Coaching is a huge factor. Had my high school coaches been in control of the Dragons during their great run they would have been no better than 4-6 in any year. No one would have ever heard of them. The players all would have thought it was their fault - that they just weren't any good, that they were a bunch of "lazy no good commode plungers".

The coaches would have had them doing everything to the absolute limits of their abilities - running wind sprints till everyone on the team was vomiting, snapping to attention when the coaches yelled at them, had the entire O- line crawling on the field during plays in games - then have yelled at them for not crawling faster, sprinting up to the line of scrimmage before every play - sprinting back to the huddle when the play was over, sprinting on and off the field on change of possession - "I want a team that HUSTLES; you aren't going to walk on the field like a bunch of lazy NFL players!", running bent over during plays, "Get those knees up to your chest boy - how else you gonna stay low when you pull?" - everything, that is, except actually playing football.

KT2000
09-08-2010, 10:44 AM
Imagine how good that Marcus team could have been with some talented DB's or receivers

You described 90% of DFW with the note about DBs. :D

Joel Free and Dagan Newsome aren't talented? The Gil kid impressed me also. The TEs as well.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:44 AM
Aside from the secondary last year, the biggest weakness I noticed the last two years was the lack of a clearly defined approach on offense. They were caught in the No Man's Land between shotgun football and power football.

I have no idea what they were doing on offense against Katy. THey did not do that in district. I think they got away from the running game last year for some reason.
But if Marcus had some talent in the secondary a year ago they probably would have won a district championship and who knows where they would have gone from there

MALAMEDICINA
09-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Yeah there is alot of diversity for sure. Anywhere close to DFW airport, its the same way, with the exeption of Pacific Islanders, whom stay pretty close if not all inside HEB. Its a close and huge Family downhere people.

All the nations within a few miles. Love it, and aint movin out. And no one move in!!! We're good small within the bigs!!!

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Aside from the secondary last year, the biggest weakness I noticed the last two years was the lack of a clearly defined approach on offense. They were caught in the No Man's Land between shotgun football and power football.

They exhibited that in the Katy game last year, but they solidified around power during District with some long strikes to try and keep it honest.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 10:46 AM
You described 90% of DFW with the note about DBs. :D

Joel Free and Dagan Newsome aren't talented?

Last year Joel Free was kicking the soccer ball somewhere in college I think. Newsome is very talented and I give you that and Marcus threw for around 1200 yards but they did not lack a true game breaker at WR :)

KT2000
09-08-2010, 10:51 AM
Last year Joel Free was kicking the soccer ball somewhere in college I think. Newsome is very talented and I give you that and Marcus threw for around 1200 yards but they did not lack a true game breaker at WR :)

To your point though, I've seen too much Houston area football over the years to believe that raw talent is the single most important factor. There are schools around here with more talent than they know what to do with, and nothing to show for it, even after the suburban expansion.

ThEgReAtOnE
09-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Examples of how coaching matters...

How many State Titles had ET won, prior to Steve Lineweaver arriving? (Tongans were living in the area since the 70's!)

How many State Titles had Katy won, prior to Mike Johnson arriving in 1982? (The 70's were horrible for Katy!)

How many State Titles had North Shore won, prior to David Aymond arriving in 1998? (In the previous 30 yrs, prior to Aymond, NS had only made 4 post-season appearances!)

How many 4A-on-up State Titles had SLC won or competed in, prior to Todd Dodge arriving in 2000? (They won two 3A-Titles, but when they hit 4A they stumbled year-in and year-out.. they went 6-4 in 1999!)

How many State Titles had Lake Travis won, prior to Jeff Dicus arriving in 2003? (LT had 1 playoff appearance in 19 yrs, prior to Dicus... then went to the playoffs 4 out 5 yrs and won a title, under him!)

How many State Titles had Texas City won, prior to Rusty Dowling arriving in the early 90's? (They had 1 playoff appearance, since 1967... then they won 2 Titles under Dowling, in a 10 yr span!)

The same can be said at places like Cedar Hill (McGuire arrived in 2003... CHILL had 5 playoff appearances, since 1935, and have a state title and 5 playoff appearances in his 7 yrs), and Allen (Prior to Todd Graham - in 1995 - Allen had 4 playoff appearances, since 1936... then went to the playoffs all 5 years while he was there!).

dada
09-08-2010, 10:57 AM
I have no idea what they were doing on offense against Katy. THey did not do that in district. I think they got away from the running game last year for some reason.
But if Marcus had some talent in the secondary a year ago they probably would have won a district championship and who knows where they would have gone from there

They had to change it up against Katy....remember, their OC from the previous season was on the Katy staff when they played.

DragonDad2015
09-08-2010, 11:18 AM
as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still
impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.


I believe the saying was, "Kill the Will (to win)". If my boy said it once. He said it a million times. That's what Dodge's staff preached.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Would you say the Carroll program is now mediocre?

I think based on the results he has had elsewhere and considering the talent he had at Carroll he would be be slightly above average.

Dodge is a genius by any definition of the word. Geniuses don't always fit; a genius can't coach people who have no idea what he is talking about. In order for a diamond to shine its best it has to be cut, polished, and placed in the right setting - otherwise it looks just like any other worthless rock.

Rembrandt was a genius - but he would have made a lousy house painter. If the job calls for house painting - he would have been the wrong person to hire.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 11:43 AM
Dodge is a genius by any definition of the word. Geniuses don't always fit; a genius can't coach people who have no idea what he is talking about. In order for a diamond to shine its best it has to be cut, polished, and placed in the right setting - otherwise it looks just like any other worthless rock.

Rembrandt was a genius - but he would have made a lousy house painter. If the job calls for house painting - he would have been the wrong person to hire.

UNT and a lot of alumni would strongly disagree with you there.

But by your definition I guess we all could fit the word genius in some capacity or another

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 11:47 AM
You have been successful the last 3 years already. Thats part of the problem man, you think by going 11-2 its not successful or it is somehow a slap to the program. I think the fact that Hal has gone 11-2, 2 different times speaks volumes about the mans character and his ability to overcome some pretty unruly and hostile fans who have no clue what they are talking about other than they think they are entitled to go 16-0 every year.

Dodge's first year at Carroll was the most successful he had ever had as a HC prior to coming to Carroll and since leaving. Just please, explain to me how we are suppose to believe he is a great coach when he couldn't even get to the playoffs or produce a winning record at any other stop? Dont feed us this, Ledbetter had already est the program stuff either because when you do, you are then saying Dodges success was a product of an already est program.

So with all the talent we had we should have just kept Rapp. You think if Hal was the HC we would have won 4 of 5 and gone to 5 straight? :rofl:
Dodge was the right person at the right time in the right program and you and I will disagree, he is a great HS coach. If you think Hal is so great, bring him on over to Lewisville with his brother.
Dodge was a great coach, Hal is a decent coach. Brazil, Joey McGwire, Joey Florence, Erwin (when on his meds :D) are great coaches.
If you disagree that Dodge made the players mentioned previously better than you are not the intelligent high school football fan that I thought you were. By your account anyone could have had that run with that talent????????? Really, I know you do not believe that.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 11:54 AM
So with all the talent we had we should have just kept Rapp. You think if Hal was the HC we would have won 4 of 5 and gone to 5 straight? :rofl:
Dodge was the right person at the right time in the right program and you and I will disagree, he is a great HS coach. If you think Hal is so great, bring him on over to Lewisville with his brother.
Dodge was a great coach, Hal is a decent coach. Brazil, Joey McGwire, Joey Florence, Erwin (when on his meds :D) are great coaches.
If you disagree that Dodge made the players mentioned previously better than you are not the intelligent high school football fan that I thought you were. By your account anyone could have had that run with that talent????????? Really, I know you do not believe that.

Hal made the playoffs at FRidge but Dodge never did. Funny you mention the ones above, they have all led other programs to winning seasons and playoff births outside of the programs they have won state at, well Brazil being the lone exception to that list. So can you explain to me how exactly Dodge made Cantu better? How about Fentris? How about Jacobson or Luna or Newton? The O-Linemen? Did Dodge develop QB's? Absolutely he did, did he have an influence on them? Without a doubt but to suggest he was the sole reason why they went to Mizzou and Bama is a bit far fetched IMO. Bama has taken more kids not coached by Todd Dodge than coached by Dodge, right?

A lot of people in Lewisville wanted Tim Wasson to remain on as head coach, he is a fine football coach and a great man and with the way a lot of your fans are, you guys don't deserve a man who cares about the kids the way he does.
But see you keep focusing on Dodge at Carroll, we all get that he had a great run at Carroll but that still doesn't explain to me how he was so "mediocre' at every other stop he has been? Carroll was winning championships before Dodge got there, right?

ktCarl
09-08-2010, 12:01 PM
Nobody runs it like Carroll did. I haven't seen anyone close. Attitude is a big part of this game and that is what Dodge gave Carroll.

Yeah, why is that? When I saw Carroll lose to Cedar Hill (08?) I thought they looked more like those 'zone read' offenses where they mostly run and surprise you with a pass. I liked Dodge throwing on 1st and 2nd downs. He surely knew how to attack and for this outsider was entertaining to watch.

Point Made...
09-08-2010, 12:07 PM
Nobody runs it like Carroll did. I haven't seen anyone close. Attitude is a big part of this game and that is what Dodge gave Carroll.


THIS!...I see that with Coach Chessher...the dude is all about attitude (very strong verbal skills) and keeping those kids prepared and focused! :eek:

Sure he'll crack a smile every-now-and-then...but that smile is just a mask for the beat-down that he's waiting to implement on the next opponent. :D

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 12:10 PM
UNT and a lot of alumni would strongly disagree with you there.



Exactly what part of "geniuses don't always fit" did you fail to understand?

While UNT might argue, Missouri, on the other hand, would tend to agree with me - since they had Dodge and staff install the entire SLC system in their college football program. When was the last time you ever heard of an established college going to a High School coaching staff to install the High School system at their school?

SLC93
09-08-2010, 12:12 PM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

This isn't limited to only the buttons being pushed on the offensive side of the ball. It permeates through the entire program now, touching every facet.
This is what happens when you have a principal shift in philosophy. Under Dodge the program was innovative and aggressive. In hiring Wasson the powers that be mandated they wanted a caretaker of what was already established. The problem in Texas is if you aren't moving forward you are moving backwards. The competition is too good and the coaches too sharp for any other outcome to be feasible. We did this to ourselves.

SLC93
09-08-2010, 12:16 PM
as a retired insider, i can vouch for the previous administration, and k deuce's opinion. i was amazed at the audacity with which td's teams played, regardless of the competition. even before the aura had taken effect on the opponents, it had settled rather strongly over on 1709. those kids bought into whatever td and his assistants were selling. and even tho td was a offensive coach, it bled over onto the defense too. they were aware of the special nature of the stake in your heart offense, and thus could play with a free and easy, blitz anytime, play man defensive attitude. they were asked, as defensive players to cover 60%+ of the snaps, but playing from ahead made that task pretty easy. td had some attributes which melded well with the talents available and he developed some pretty good players, and even attracted some as winning often does.

i feel i am mis-understanding ff's comments, as i am sure he is still impressed with td's run at slc, which while it has not correlated into success else, is also not likely to be repeated any time soon.


Because of the age and hormones of the kids involved, this is precisely why coaching is most impactful at the hs level. A great head coach that can maintain a top shelf staff will dominate because their troops will never be more willing to buy into something than they are from 15-18, period.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 12:21 PM
Exactly what part of "geniuses don't always fit" did you fail to understand?

While UNT might argue, Missouri, on the other hand, would tend to agree with me - since they had Dodge and staff install the entire SLC system in their college football program. When was the last time you ever heard of an established college going to a High School coaching staff to install the High School system at their school?

Which part of
But by your definition I guess we all could fit the word genius in some capacity or another did you fail to understand?

If Mizzou agrees with you they are in essence agreeing with MTSU, right?

You would be shocked at what college and HS coaches all across this country do to learn systems and what not.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 12:22 PM
Because of the age and hormones of the kids involved, this is precisely why coaching is most impactful at the hs level. A great head coach that can maintain a top shelf staff will dominate because their troops will never be more willing to buy into something than they are from 15-18, period.

Unless they lack in the talent to which you result into being Newman Smith or Cameron Yoe, right? :)

toonman
09-08-2010, 12:23 PM
I try to follow Texas HS football as closely as any Floridian can. However, my insight and knowledge into certain programs is obviously limited.

So, my big question, which is sure to garner many replies, is...

...How on earth does Southlake Carroll HS go from being SO SO dominant in the State of Texas...to...well...a rather mediocre team that could be considered to be on the down slide?

Please educate me! :notworthy

After Todd Dodge left the appointment of an aging, 5-5, never won anything, lacking game and program management skills coach.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM
This isn't limited to only the buttons being pushed on the offensive side of the ball. It permeates through the entire program now, touching every facet.
This is what happens when you have a principal shift in philosophy. Under Dodge the program was innovative and aggressive. In hiring Wasson the powers that be mandated they wanted a caretaker of what was already established. The problem in Texas is if you aren't moving forward you are moving backwards. The competition is too good and the coaches too sharp for any other outcome to be feasible. We did this to ourselves.

You did what to yourselves? In one sentence you say the competition in Texas is too good, but in the other you make it sound like you guys are failing.
If 11-2 is failing then sir I dont want you or others as my boss. You all need a heavy dose of reality I am afraid because this crap of 11-2 not being good enough, is well, hilarious. You all might have higher standards than everybody else but yalls lack in common sense and reality sure as heck make up for it :D

Maroondog
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM
I try to follow Texas HS football as closely as any Floridian can. However, my insight and knowledge into certain programs is obviously limited.

So, my big question, which is sure to garner many replies, is...

...How on earth does Southlake Carroll HS go from being SO SO dominant in the State of Texas...to...well...a rather mediocre team that could be considered to be on the down slide?

Please educate me! :notworthy

Its Garman, not garner. :D

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM
After Todd Dodge left the appointment of an aging, 5-5, never won anything, lacking game and program management skills coach.

:rofl::yes::notworthy

DrEdward
09-08-2010, 12:56 PM
Carroll was already a very good football team when Todd arrived. It had not performed as well at the 4A level as it had at the 3A level, but it was still nothing to sneeze at. When Dodge arrived, there is no doubt that a simply amazing combination of football and athletic talent resident during those years at Carroll matched up damn near perfectly with a head coach who could both develop and utilize that talent -- a perfect football storm as it were. The boys playing on those teams in the Dodge years were smart; did their work, both academically and athletically; really understood the game that they were being asked to play. The attitude they displayed on the field (as cited by KT2000) was a reflection of their abilities, their success, and their coaching. A string of All State QBs from Ricky Lay through Riley Dodge, one after the other. Plus those guys got to throw to a seemingly inexhaustible pool of D1 type receivers, not just one showing up at a time, but in mass year after year. Combine that with some not too shabby running backs. Indeed the talent at Carroll in the Dodge years was an astoundingly significant contribution to the achievements of the Dragons. Theose players had the abilities to blend perfectly with a system that Todd Dodge wanted to teach and develop. He did so extraordinarily well.

But again, it was the combination of the players and the coach which fit so well together that accounted for the Dragons' success. (And we haven't even talked about the defense.)

It was extraordinary how long the string of players lasted with that All-State/D1 level of talent which Carroll and Dodge benefited from. But it would be too much to hope it would last forever. Carroll still has a good deal of talent, but arguably not in the quantity that it had during the first half plus of this past decade. Still, I think it is incorrect to classify Carroll over the past three seasons as "mediocre." In each season, they have made the playoffs and gone at least to the second round or third round, defeating a defending state champion in the process. The Dragons worst record has been 8-3 during that period. Certainly not at their previous level (damn it), but not mediocre either. If there are changes which can be made to bring them back to their previous level, I would love to see it. But just as it was the combination of players and coaches which accounted for the Dragon success in the Dodge era, it will also require a similar combination of the two for such a perfect storm to develop again.

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 12:58 PM
Hal made the playoffs at FRidge but Dodge never did. Funny you mention the ones above, they have all led other programs to winning seasons and playoff births outside of the programs they have won state at, well Brazil being the lone exception to that list. So can you explain to me how exactly Dodge made Cantu better? How about Fentris? How about Jacobson or Luna or Newton? The O-Linemen? Did Dodge develop QB's? Absolutely he did, did he have an influence on them? Without a doubt but to suggest he was the sole reason why they went to Mizzou and Bama is a bit far fetched IMO. Bama has taken more kids not coached by Todd Dodge than coached by Dodge, right?

A lot of people in Lewisville wanted Tim Wasson to remain on as head coach, he is a fine football coach and a great man and with the way a lot of your fans are, you guys don't deserve a man who cares about the kids the way he does.
But see you keep focusing on Dodge at Carroll, we all get that he had a great run at Carroll but that still doesn't explain to me how he was so "mediocre' at every other stop he has been? Carroll was winning championships before Dodge got there, right?

I never said he has sole responsibility, you are insinuating he had none. Coaches are by their nature teachers especially in high school. Were all those mentioned above great talented players you bet. He made them better by teaching, by doing his job by running a system that displayed their talents. Do I think that Chase and Greg would have been recruited you bet but would not have gotten to the level they are at with out TD having been their coach and being in the spread.
In terms of Bama taking more players not coached by TD you are just wanting to start an argument. I never said Todd should be the only high school coach in America. It takes multiple components to win like Carroll did during those years but you are saying he had no role and it was just talent. If that was the case why has Skyline and a ton of other schools loaded with talent every year not win state or advance deep in the playoffs?
High school football is all about coaching. Great coaching couple with talent is very scary. It is not the DI players that win you championships it is the role players that were cherished as much as the top recruits. There are laundry lists of players who are forgotten that were a lot better and are wearing rings because of TD and his staff.

Never said Tim Wasson was not devoted to the kids but in terms of a HC, would not be a top 30 choice.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 12:59 PM
Farmer, I strongly suspect that you are one of those people who can not imagine a brain better than his own. I can assure you such brains do exist. Coach Dodge has one of them.

If you look up the word genius in the dictionary you will find several definitions of the word "Genius". I don't define words - the dictionary does. Dodge qualifies under any of those definitions as a genius. That does not mean that "anybody qualifies as a genius".

Here is the Merriam Webster definition.

1
a plural genii : an attendant spirit of a person or place
b plural usually genii : a person who influences another for good or bad
2
: a strong leaning or inclination : penchant
3
a : a peculiar, distinctive, or identifying character or spirit
b : the associations and traditions of a place
c : a personification or embodiment especially of a quality or condition
4
plural usually genii : spirit, jinni
5
plural usually geniuses
a : a single strongly marked capacity or aptitude <had a genius for getting along with boys — Mary Ross>
b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity
c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high IQ

old days
09-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Its Dodge. If you don't get it, it might be because you didn't have one play for him. Its hard to describe but the boys beat so many more physically talented teams like Lufkin,Cedar Hill, Evangel Shreveport, and Trinity. Any of the championship teams and the runner up teams could do it now against current defenses. That Abilene win in Waco of like 54 to 3 or something. Our boys were pissed because thier coach talked smack and they decided that on that day he would regret his words. Abilene had Taylor Potts and many other talented kids too. But that coach said something and the players were not having it. It looked like a pit bull on a hamster.
If Hal would of called time out his first year it might have changed his destiny. The younger boys just knew if he could not win with Trey,Riley,Cantu,Brainard,Swartstien,Jake jackson,Jackson Richards,Cade,Derrick,Brainard,Padron, Luke, and many many more great players then how in the F could they win with the next groups.
The magic confidence left right then. Someone earlier mentioned that Chase Daniels moved here. Yes the talent came here legally because dad's knew this was the place. Now peple with gifted football players might move somewhere else. Plus Hal runs off alot of boys along the way that Todd kept. This years team has 20 something seniors.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 01:13 PM
Farmer, I strongly suspect that you are one of those people who can not imagine a brain better than his own. I can assure you such brains do exist. Coach Dodge has one of them.

If you look up the word genius in the dictionary you will find several definitions of the word "Genius". I don't define words - the dictionary does. Dodge qualifies under any of those definitions as a genius. That does not mean that "anybody qualifies as a genius".

Here is the Merriam Webster definition.

1
a plural genii : an attendant spirit of a person or place
b plural usually genii : a person who influences another for good or bad
2
: a strong leaning or inclination : penchant
3
a : a peculiar, distinctive, or identifying character or spirit
b : the associations and traditions of a place
c : a personification or embodiment especially of a quality or condition
4
plural usually genii : spirit, jinni
5
plural usually geniuses
a : a single strongly marked capacity or aptitude <had a genius for getting along with boys — Mary Ross>
b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity
c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high IQ

Actually I am quite critical of my own brain and thinking or lack thereof.

I just find it so funny that so much praise is given to one individual for a 6 year run, a very impressive 6 year run but that seems to be the only thing people are wanting to focus on. If you can look at a 6 year window and judge and conclude one is a genius, then I will take a 10 year window and judge and conclude he does not fit that mold

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 01:16 PM
Its Dodge. If you don't get it, it might be because you didn't have one play for him. Its hard to describe but the boys beat so many more physically talented teams like Lufkin,Cedar Hill, Evangel Shreveport, and Trinity. Any of the championship teams and the runner up teams could do it now against current defenses. That Abilene win in Waco of like 54 to 3 or something. Our boys were pissed because thier coach talked smack and they decided that on that day he would regret his words. Abilene had Taylor Potts and many other talented kids too. But that coach said something and the players were not having it. It looked like a pit bull on a hamster.
If Hal would of called time out his first year it might have changed his destiny. The younger boys just knew if he could not win with Trey,Riley,Cantu,Brainard,Swartstien,Jake jackson,Jackson Richards,Cade,Derrick,Brainard,Padron, Luke, and many many more great players then how in the F could they win with the next groups.
The magic confidence left right then. Someone earlier mentioned that Chase Daniels moved here. Yes the talent came here legally because dad's knew this was the place. Now peple with gifted football players might move somewhere else. Plus Hal runs off alot of boys along the way that Todd kept. This years team has 20 something seniors.

You realize it was Hal that beat CHill, right? Dodge never played against them.
Also, that Shreveport Evangel team had no depth and was nowhere near as talented or good as the '06 Dragons.

What did Coach Warren say that pissed off the '05 bunch so bad?

maxtor
09-08-2010, 01:20 PM
Question;

Would it be worth it to pay Dodge his 400k salary at NT for him to return to SLC? Raise ticket prices a few bucks and sell a few more drink mugs and they could cover the extra 300 grand!
They could somehow redshirt Daxx(sic) and get a few more 'cantu's' and they will be back in business. Besides, why in the world would Jeffcoat let his son play for freakin Plano west when he could have played for SLC? Ole Jim should have come to me for advice. Nate did. I talked to ole Nate one night at Dragon stadium. He looked at me like I had Kazoos sticking out of my ears. EXCUUUUUUSE THE **** OUT OF ME!

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 01:22 PM
I never said he has sole responsibility, you are insinuating he had none. Coaches are by their nature teachers especially in high school. Were all those mentioned above great talented players you bet. He made them better by teaching, by doing his job by running a system that displayed their talents. Do I think that Chase and Greg would have been recruited you bet but would not have gotten to the level they are at with out TD having been their coach and being in the spread.
In terms of Bama taking more players not coached by TD you are just wanting to start an argument. I never said Todd should be the only high school coach in America. It takes multiple components to win like Carroll did during those years but you are saying he had no role and it was just talent. If that was the case why has Skyline and a ton of other schools loaded with talent every year not win state or advance deep in the playoffs?
High school football is all about coaching. Great coaching couple with talent is very scary. It is not the DI players that win you championships it is the role players that were cherished as much as the top recruits. There are laundry lists of players who are forgotten that were a lot better and are wearing rings because of TD and his staff.

Never said Tim Wasson was not devoted to the kids but in terms of a HC, would not be a top 30 choice.


I am not so sure a lot in your fanbase deserve a top 30 coach. Especially with the way the critical ones will go about attacking the man on a personal level or how he does his job. Some of your fans need to sit through about 5 2-3 win seasons and be brough back to reality

I am not trying to start an argument by suggesting that Dodge i teh only one who should coach kids that go to Bama, but it was known coming into HS that McElroy was oozing with talent. I had been told about him from DD who said that the best one they may ever have has yet to see the field, this was in '04 on the message board. Bama and other schools would have found him regardless of coach. Did he learn from Dodge sure, did Dodge mold him into a good HS QB sure, was Dodge responsible for the success at Carroll, yes he played a part but I believe the biggest part was played by the kids and not the coach. Dodge didnt coach the Line or the backs or the defense did he?

MLB3725
09-08-2010, 01:31 PM
Examples of how coaching matters...

How many State Titles had ET won, prior to Steve Lineweaver arriving? (Tongans were living in the area since the 70's!)

How many State Titles had Katy won, prior to Mike Johnson arriving in 1982? (The 70's were horrible for Katy!)

How many State Titles had North Shore won, prior to David Aymond arriving in 1998? (In the previous 30 yrs, prior to Aymond, NS had only made 4 post-season appearances!)

How many 4A-on-up State Titles had SLC won or competed in, prior to Todd Dodge arriving in 2000? (They won two 3A-Titles, but when they hit 4A they stumbled year-in and year-out.. they went 6-4 in 1999!)

How many State Titles had Lake Travis won, prior to Jeff Dicus arriving in 2003? (LT had 1 playoff appearance in 19 yrs, prior to Dicus... then went to the playoffs 4 out 5 yrs and won a title, under him!)

How many State Titles had Texas City won, prior to Rusty Dowling arriving in the early 90's? (They had 1 playoff appearance, since 1967... then they won 2 Titles under Dowling, in a 10 yr span!)

The same can be said at places like Cedar Hill (McGuire arrived in 2003... CHILL had 5 playoff appearances, since 1935, and have a state title and 5 playoff appearances in his 7 yrs), and Allen (Prior to Todd Graham - in 1995 - Allen had 4 playoff appearances, since 1936... then went to the playoffs all 5 years while he was there!).

This post needed more love...

Coaches are the true difference maker between average and amazing.

Fleeman93
09-08-2010, 01:50 PM
I agree. But why does LD Bell continue to play like... well... LD Bell. I've seen a lot of talented kids go through there in the past few years. The old adage of "Trinity's got all the Tongans" doesn't hold water anymore. There are a lot of Tongan families living in Hurst now and Bell has plenty of Tongan players.

Had Bell kept the ball on the ground last week and kept the ball in that running back of theirs hands, I believe they could have beaten Carroll soundly. But...what do I know?

If you have lots of talent and not a lot of winning then you have a sure sign of poor coaching.

toonman
09-08-2010, 02:01 PM
...Coaches are the true difference maker between average and amazing.

You certainly get it, but a great many do not.

I have yet to see a talented group of players coach themselves to a championship at any level - High School, College or NFL. Yet a coach has won with meager talent; by harnessing that talent and by gelling the talent into a Team with skilful game planning.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:05 PM
You certainly get it, but a great many do not.

I have yet to see a talented group of players coach themselves to a championship at any level - High School, College or NFL. Yet a coach has won with meager talent; by harnessing that talent and by gelling the talent into a Team with skilful game planning.

Do you consider Joey McGwire to be a good/great coach?

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Actually I am quite critical of my own brain and thinking or lack thereof.

I just find it so funny that so much praise is given to one individual for a 6 year run, a very impressive 6 year run but that seems to be the only thing people are wanting to focus on. If you can look at a 6 year window and judge and conclude one is a genius, then I will take a 10 year window and judge and conclude he does not fit that mold

I call him a genius because of what I observed his team doing on the field. Do you understand what SLC's offense was doing to defenses? Do you understand how it worked and what the philosophy behind it was? I do. That's why I call him a genius: I could see and admire the genius of what he was doing. It took a brilliant inventive mind to come up with the SLC offense. It was much more than a conventional spread. No matter what defense you were in, you were in the wrong defense to play SLC.

The follow up coaching staff abandoned that offense because 1. They really didn't understand it. 2. They couldn't implement it like Dodge and his staff could. It took Wasson's staff 20 minutes in the Miami North West game to make an adjustment that would have taken Dodge's staff 3 plays to make. That alone would have changed the outcome of that game.

Mike Johnston has not had the enormous success at Houston Christian that he had at Katy - not because of any failings on his part as a coach but because of the setting he is now in; he can't build the kind of program that he built at Katy. That doesn't reflect on his genius as a coach - which is real.

UNT is a very bad match for coach Dodge and his staff. Coaching doesn't make as much difference at the College level as it does at the high school level; everyone has very good coaching at the college level. In other words you can't make up as much of a talent difference with good coaching at the college level as you can at the high school level. When Dodge and company got blown out by O.U. on National TV their first game it got everything off on the wrong foot.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:12 PM
I call him a genius because of what I observed his team doing on the field. Do you understand what SLC's offense was doing to defenses? Do you understand how it worked and what the philosophy behind it was? I do. That's why I call him a genius: I could see and admire the genius of what he was doing. It took a brilliant inventive mind to come up with the SLC offense. It was much more than a conventional spread. No matter what defense you were in, you were in the wrong defense to play SLC.

The follow up coaching staff abandoned that offense because 1. They really didn't understand it. 2. They couldn't implement it like Dodge and his staff could. It took Wasson's staff 20 minutes in the Miami North West game to make an adjustment that would have taken Dodge's staff 3 plays to make. That alone would have changed the outcome of that game.

Mike Johnston has not had the enormous success at Houston Christian that he had a Katy - not because of any failings on his part as a coach but because of the setting he is now in; he can't build the kind of program that he built at Katy. That doesn't reflect on his genius as a coach - which is real.

UNT is a very bad match for coach Dodge and his staff. Coaching doesn't make as much difference at the College level as it does at the high school level; everyone has very good coaching at the college level. In other words you can't make up as much of a talent difference with good coaching at the college level as you can at the high school level. When Dodge and company got blown out by O.U. on National TV their first game it got everything off on the wrong foot.

I say he's not a genius based on what other men and teams have done to every other team he has coached. I say he isn't a genius simply because if he were he would have been better than average at every other stop he has been at. He has a 20% rate of having success when you factor in his stops, meaning 1 out of his 5 stops he has won. If that is a genius to you then wow.
You realize he didn't come up with the Carroll offense, right? Took a huge chunk of it from MTSU. You realize that he was able to exploit the weakness of other teams based on the matchup problems presented. Not many defenses possesed guys with the skill to lock up on a Blake Cantu, Evan Fentris, McKay Jacobson, Clint Renfro, Scott Chandler. Not many teams had a defensisve line that could line up and go man for man against hte lines Carroll was trotting out there. So while he was able to creat weaknesses, its not anythign different then you see other coaches do, are they genius' too?

UNT is a perfect example, he hasn't had the talent to bail him out if he were to make a wrong decision like he had at Carroll

Comanche
09-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Not only was Dodge a great coach but was also a great recruiter!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

the_great_state_of_TExas
09-08-2010, 02:28 PM
[QUOTE=TigerHat;1594023] It took Wasson's staff 20 minutes in the Miami North West game to make an adjustment that would have taken Dodge's staff 3 plays to make. That alone would have changed the outcome of that game.

QUOTE]


I know I posted this a few weeks ago, but I am still confused - we are allowed to make adjustments to our game plan.

You are mistaken Katy Fan.:mad: This makes no sense.

I was under the impression that the UIL must have created a Dragon only rule after our last state championship that prohibited us from making adjustments after the initial kick-off much less half-time.

Can we make halftime adjustments? I apparently need some advice from someone with more HS football knowledge.

Oh, one more thing. FF's judgment is clouded by his hatred for all things SLC. He would love for us to keep HW for 5 to 10 more seasons - it gives him something to do with his endless availability of free time.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 02:30 PM
If you have lots of talent and not a lot of winning then you have a sure sign of poor coaching.

This!!

dragondad2014
09-08-2010, 02:33 PM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

I included KT2000's entire post from earlier in this thread because it bears repeating. His analysis -- reasoned, objective, dispassionate -- is the single most cogent commentary about the Dodge era that I've read or heard. Bravo.

I don't really know just how good a coach Wasson is. I'll leave that judgment to those who are better versed in the Xs and Os. But I know one thing: the kids who played for Dodge believed in him, totally and completely. The kids who play for Wasson have a very different feeling about him.

And the idea that the coach is irrelevant at the high school level -- and by extension, that Dodge wasn't a significant factor in Southlake Carroll's unprecedented success in the last decade -- is ludricrous.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:44 PM
Oh, one more thing. FF's judgment is clouded by his hatred for all things SLC. He would love for us to keep HW for 5 to 10 more seasons - it gives him something to do with his endless availability of free time

Hey, why don't you man up and go tell Hal everything you have said on here and then why don't you tell us exactly what it is you would do differnt and how you would correct these so called mistakes he seems to make.

As for my free time, nice attempt at a jab there, I'm not the moron who complains about a product on the field, the man running it and then go spend the night in line waiting for season tickets. Hmm, I believe you did, right yankee and D08? Seems like you might need to check on your availability of free time too buddy

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:45 PM
I included KT2000's entire post from earlier in this thread because it bears repeating. His analysis -- reasoned, objective, dispassionate -- is the single most cogent commentary about the Dodge era that I've read or heard. Bravo.

I don't really know just how good a coach Wasson is. I'll leave that judgment to those who are better versed in the Xs and Os. But I know one thing: the kids who played for Dodge believed in him, totally and completely. The kids who play for Wasson have a very different feeling about him.

And the idea that the coach is irrelevant at the high school level -- and by extension, that Dodge wasn't a significant factor in Southlake Carroll's unprecedented success in the last decade -- is ludricrous.


So can one person please explain to me why Todd Dodge has failed everywhere else he has been. I sue the word failed becasue he never has gone 11-2 outside of Carroll and by all means, that is considered failing to you all who believe in the myth of Perfectville.

Montana79
09-08-2010, 02:47 PM
Here we go again, not you personally. TD was not successful before he got to Carroll, no one argues that. A couple different factors. First of all he was not running the spread and those programs also did not have dominant programs in the past as we did with Ledbetter. Remember Ledbetter hand picked Todd so he must have known something.
Was the talent better then, sure, but how much of that talent was created by Dodge and entire program. If Chase Daniel stayed living in Irving is it your thoughts he would have developed into a Heisman finalist? If Greg McElroy played at Fossil Ridge he would have been the QB for a national championship team at Alabama?
If McKay Jacobsen had gone to Trinity would he have been a nationally recruited WR etc etc etc. I think we know the answers. For whatever reason he clicked with our group of kids. You cannot compare DI college to high school. Was it a good move for him, not for me to answer.
Why are the number of players that come out for football lower and the drop off from Freshmen to Senior year significantly higher now.
Why did the talent drop off so much? Did our demographics change?
I can go on for hours. You do not think Dodge was a great high school coach and you are entitled to your opinion. He developed talent and got the most out of every kid whether a starter or scout team player and they all were made to feel just as important.
TD's last year in '06 how many seniors were on that team, I am guessing 50 or more, this year were are around 25.
Under 100 kids for Freshmen football now when there used to be 150 plus.
The entire program has changed.

Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

SLC93
09-08-2010, 02:54 PM
Not only was Dodge a great coach but was also a great recruiter!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

UNT begs to differ.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:57 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

You are right. They say the kids are no longer participating in the program though so that is the falling out. Here is something though and this will piss people off but I could care less. Is it the coaching or the spoiled nature handed down by the parents to their kids of they are entitled to going 16-0 every year and if they don't then they will blame the coach for that?
CCCSportsfan please do not take exception to that comment as it is not directed at you or parents like you.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 02:57 PM
UNT begs to differ.

I concur :heli::notworthy:yes:

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

i am a big fan of hw. he's a great individual and very forthright and moral. he would have been my short list, had i been given one. of the applicants i expected to be choosing from, he was third behind...well, both still coach north of lake grapevine. ff may be right, along with multitudes, who, at the time said hw was in a no win situation. unless and until there is a change in the coaching situation, which i don't assume is close at hand, i'd suggest everyone cheer for the dragons. pray for injury-free games for both teams, and continue to enjoy the best form of entertainment going.

obviously, i didn't get a vote

SLC93
09-08-2010, 03:00 PM
So can one person please explain to me why Todd Dodge has failed everywhere else he has been. I sue the word failed becasue he never has gone 11-2 outside of Carroll and by all means, that is considered failing to you all who believe in the myth of Perfectville.

Farmer, I can't answer this question for you in every thread you post it in today, can I?

Dodge's coaching arc is no different that what many of of experience in our professions. When we're young we churn through some jobs, gaining experience and growing. Then we land the job where we blossom and make our marks because we've developed our game. You have to remind yourself that Dodge really didn't spend alot of time coming up through the ranks in the coaching world. A few years as an OC at McKinney, a year at UNT and then he's landing head coaching gigs. He was nowhere near a finished product when he took his first hc gig. You're fixating, imo.

As far as the failures at UNT, he's in along line of coaches who didn't translate at another level. There is no shame in that at all and, in my opinion, can't be held against his place in the HS conversations.

the_great_state_of_TExas
09-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Hey, why don't you man up and go tell Hal everything you have said on here and then why don't you tell us exactly what it is you would do differnt and how you would correct these so called mistakes he seems to make.

As for my free time, nice attempt at a jab there, I'm not the moron who complains about a product on the field, the man running it and then go spend the night in line waiting for season tickets. Hmm, I believe you did, right yankee and D08? Seems like you might need to check on your availability of free time too buddy


You are correct - My professional achievements have provided me a fair amount of free time and the means to enjoy my life. :)

I shall limit my response to the singular point above and refrain from another round of oneupmanship with the "devoted gleaner".

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

Hal was not the right person for the program. Needed someone with more charisma that could go and talk to the middle school and pee wee kids and get them excited about being a Dragon. Hal is not a great public speaker and look at his body of work as a coach and it is not impressive. Not saying he is a bad coach but not the level of a Ledbetter or Dodge and certainly does not have the personality that exudes confidence like other top coaches. His public comments are a whose who of cliches

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 03:11 PM
You are right. They say the kids are no longer participating in the program though so that is the falling out. Here is something though and this will piss people off but I could care less. Is it the coaching or the spoiled nature handed down by the parents to their kids of they are entitled to going 16-0 every year and if they don't then they will blame the coach for that?CCCSportsfan please do not take exception to that comment as it is not directed at you or parents like you.

this complacency is natural, which makes the 4/5 title run such a unique accomplishment. it is human nature to desire success. in very few instances, does that desire for success match up with an equal desire to prepare for it, year after year after year, etc. i remember consoling my youngest after he wasn't able to play in the 02 game, that it was very hard to repeat, and it would take incredible effort and luck to make that happen. to do that 5 years in a row was and always will be an incredible feat of coaching and performing in the clutch. it was inevitable that there would come a time, for any coach, when there would be a set of circumstances (decreased talent level, critical injuries, unfocused desire to prepare, a feeling of entitlement among coaches/player/parents) which would preclude ultimate success.

SLC93
09-08-2010, 03:11 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

To the first, see my response to Farmer a few posts up.

As far as the second, I just always felt we rushed and ended up settling. I think Wasson is a manager of a program, not a leader. Unlike Dodge, he had a lenghty resume that indicated his programs are typically run of the mill. This wasn't rolling the dice on a young coach looking to make his mark. There was more than enough evidence on Wasson. He's a fine coach but I don't expect fine at Carroll. I'm from the Ledbetter/Lineweaver era and watched the Dodge years closely. I expect our head coach to be amongst the best around, period. Nothing is more crucial at the high school level than the head coach and his staff.

11-2 was great. As I've stated before on other threads the real concern from the real fans isn't the wins. It's numerous other indicators as to the state of the entire program and it's long term direction. That 11-2 was posted with one of the best classes to come through. One that was touted for years. Where would Dodge or JOseph or Lineweaver have taken those kids to?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 03:17 PM
[QUOTE=TigerHat;1594023] It took Wasson's staff 20 minutes in the Miami North West game to make an adjustment that would have taken Dodge's staff 3 plays to make. That alone would have changed the outcome of that game.

QUOTE]


I know I posted this a few weeks ago, but I am still confused - we are allowed to make adjustments to our game plan.

You are mistaken Katy Fan.:mad: This makes no sense.

I was under the impression that the UIL must have created a Dragon only rule after our last state championship that prohibited us from making adjustments after the initial kick-off much less half-time.

Can we make halftime adjustments? I apparently need some advice from someone with more HS football knowledge.

Oh, one more thing. FF's judgment is clouded by his hatred for all things SLC. He would love for us to keep HW for 5 to 10 more seasons - it gives him something to do with his endless availability of free time.

Naw.
I disagree with that. What I WILL say is that FF is stubborn and will argue a point to death. Think of it as a debate rather than personal.

FF DOES know that coaching makes a BIG/HUGE difference. He just believes we had the talent that made Dodge. I personally believe that without Dodge, that talent does not win 4 championships. The Westlake game adjustments alone tell the story.

That's all.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:17 PM
You are correct - My professional achievements have provided me a fair amount of free time and the means to enjoy my life. :)

I shall limit my response to the singular point above and refrain from another round of oneupmanship with the "devoted gleaner".

The connections I have made in life over the years of being "so hateful', especially to those who live or are from Southlake, have afforded me the opportunity to spend all my time on this very website getting under the skin of a few of those upstanding citizens of Perfectville.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 03:18 PM
I say he's not a genius based on what other men and teams have done to every other team he has coached. I say he isn't a genius simply because if he were he would have been better than average at every other stop he has been at. He has a 20% rate of having success when you factor in his stops, meaning 1 out of his 5 stops he has won. If that is a genius to you then wow.
You realize he didn't come up with the Carroll offense, right? Took a huge chunk of it from MTSU. You realize that he was able to exploit the weakness of other teams based on the matchup problems presented. Not many defenses possesed guys with the skill to lock up on a Blake Cantu, Evan Fentris, McKay Jacobson, Clint Renfro, Scott Chandler. Not many teams had a defensisve line that could line up and go man for man against hte lines Carroll was trotting out there. So while he was able to creat weaknesses, its not anythign different then you see other coaches do, are they genius' too?

UNT is a perfect example, he hasn't had the talent to bail him out if he were to make a wrong decision like he had at Carroll

Yes he exploited personnel mismatches - which any competent coach will do - but that was not all that he was doing by a long shot. Yes any good coach will run off tackle because that is the easiest place to run. High school coaches are professionals, those are normal professional level coaching things to do. What coach Dodge was doing went well beyond that.

I'm not going to discuss what they were doing - partly for purely selfish reasons; I don't want Katy to have to face that :Censor: offense every :Censor: week. I will say that the Katy coaches learned from SLC and that is part of the reason our offense is doing better than it used to.

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

Hmmm. I would think a Coppell Cowboy fan would REALLY know what a difference coaching can make. :) Look at you the past two years. Is that all talent? Did you have no talent during the Fuller years?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:21 PM
Farmer, I can't answer this question for you in every thread you post it in today, can I?

Dodge's coaching arc is no different that what many of of experience in our professions. When we're young we churn through some jobs, gaining experience and growing. Then we land the job where we blossom and make our marks because we've developed our game. You have to remind yourself that Dodge really didn't spend alot of time coming up through the ranks in the coaching world. A few years as an OC at McKinney, a year at UNT and then he's landing head coaching gigs. He was nowhere near a finished product when he took his first hc gig. You're fixating, imo.

As far as the failures at UNT, he's in along line of coaches who didn't translate at another level. There is no shame in that at all and, in my opinion, can't be held against his place in the HS conversations.

If his job at UNT can't be held against him and the job he did or didn't do at CY, NS and FRidge can't be held against him what can, his job at Carroll? Ok, thats fair. :)
See, like you all say I make excuses to why you all win or that I hate yall so much, you are making excuses for Dodge and his lack of success by citing he didn't spend a lot of time in the coaching ranks prior to coming up. But to each his own

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:22 PM
this complacency is natural, which makes the 4/5 title run such a unique accomplishment. it is human nature to desire success. in very few instances, does that desire for success match up with an equal desire to prepare for it, year after year after year, etc. i remember consoling my youngest after he wasn't able to play in the 02 game, that it was very hard to repeat, and it would take incredible effort and luck to make that happen. to do that 5 years in a row was and always will be an incredible feat of coaching and performing in the clutch. it was inevitable that there would come a time, for any coach, when there would be a set of circumstances (decreased talent level, critical injuries, unfocused desire to prepare, a feeling of entitlement among coaches/player/parents) which would preclude ultimate success.

I think that is a damn good post and you make a lot of damn good points :notworthy

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:23 PM
Yes he exploited personnel mismatches - which any competent coach will do - but that was not all that he was doing by a long shot. Yes any good coach will run off tackle because that is the easiest place to run. High school coaches are professionals, those are normal professional level coaching things to do. What coach Dodge was doing went well beyond that.

I'm not going to discuss what they were doing - partly for purely selfish reasons; I don't want Katy to have to face that :Censor: offense every :Censor: week. I will say that the Katy coaches learned from SLC and that is part of the reason our offense is doing better than it used to.

Your offense last year and in '08 wasn't that great. Why is that?

2000 and 2007 you all had a dang good offense though, why was that?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE=the_great_state_of_TExas;1594053]

Naw.
I disagree with that. What I WILL say is that FF is stubborn and will argue a point to death. Think of it as a debate rather than personal.

FF DOES know that coaching makes a BIG/HUGE difference. He just believes we had the talent that made Dodge. I personally believe that without Dodge, that talent does not win 4 championships. The Westlake game adjustments alone tell the story.

That's all.


Thank you. Yes, I do believe that Dodge benefitted far more from the kids at Carroll than the kids at Carroll did him. THats not saying he didnt have an impact on their lives or anything else, I think think the bigger impact was what the kids there did for him

mojotrain
09-08-2010, 03:32 PM
I think that a high school with 1000 male students has the same amount of talent as any school with 1000 male students. IMO talent just means capability of playing football to what ever the level the coach and staff are capable of teaching. The only other factor I've seen create a decline in a program is the addition of new high schools that pull from an existing talent pool.

It's coaching, even to the point of getting all the "talent" to come out for football instead of walking the halls.

I say this and Permians record says different. 5 different coachs, 6 state championships with no failures in between the 5 coachs.

I can explain. If you saw the 1965 state championship team you saw the 1991 state championship team. Those who followed Mayfield in 65, Bartosh, Wilkins, Gaines and Hollingshead had the good sense to keep everthing in place as it was. This clone chain stayed in place until ECISD stepped in.

Of course if you happen to be a good coach and are in a situation where you can give schloarships or recruit there is no reason why you sould ever lose. Your advantage rises from a talent pool of 1000 male students to a infinate number of florida lads to pick from. No fat hog to cut.

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 03:36 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.


We thought that there were better candidates available and had the search been done differently we would have those types of coaches apply. The fact is that the consensus was that the entire hiring process was just an exercise and Hal was the guy from day 1.

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 03:38 PM
Hmmm. I would think a Coppell Cowboy fan would REALLY know what a difference coaching can make. :) Look at you the past two years. Is that all talent? Did you have no talent during the Fuller years?

No Ringo used up all the talent :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:39 PM
We thought that there were better candidates available and had the search been done differently we would have those types of coaches apply. The fact is that the consensus was that the entire hiring process was just an exercise and Hal was the guy from day 1.

So, who did you want?

The Observer
09-08-2010, 03:40 PM
I think that a high school with 1000 male students has the same amount of talent as any school with 1000 male students. IMO talent just means capability of playing football to what ever the level the coach and staff are capable of teaching. The only other factor I've seen create a decline in a program is the addition of new high schools that pull from an existing talent pool.

It's coaching, even to the point of getting all the "talent" to come out for football instead of walking the halls.

And for all the dumb statements that have been made on this board - this might top them all. You don't really believe that do you?

bigdaddydog
09-08-2010, 03:44 PM
Hey it's the ebb and flow, the give and take, the yin and yang, There is no such thing as permanent dominance in High School Football.

If Southlake Carrol can be great for a while, well then there is every reason to think that other programs Cantu. ;):D

I love it when a guy from Florida pronounces the SLC program dead after one loss early in a season. It's not like the Dragons are gonna lose any more games this season, right? ;)

Besides, have you seen that new video board!! Sombody help us out here and post a picture. I heear that thing is huge!!


~

yankee
09-08-2010, 03:49 PM
fact of the matter is the only reason we had success under the dodge years was because of luck. that's it. we had no coaching and no talent. we were just really lukcy.

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 03:49 PM
So, who did you want?

I was hoping for Clayton George but he went to UNT with TD, Joey Florence would have been great, Brazil, McGuire but due to the manner in which the search was done we had few good candidates apply. Erwin would have been excellent but he dropped out and we know why.
But in terms of a wish list since CG was not an option:

in order

Joey Florence
Joey McGuire
Brian Brazil
Bryan Erwin

yankee
09-08-2010, 03:51 PM
i was hoping we'd get scott peach.

FatBoy of Troy
09-08-2010, 03:52 PM
fact of the matter is the only reason we had success under the dodge years was because of luck. that's it. we had no coaching and no talent. we were just really lukcy.
And Brett Shipp hadn't been to any 7 on 7's yet.;):rolleyes:

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:52 PM
I was hoping for Clayton George but he went to UNT with TD, Joey Florence would have been great, Brazil, McGuire but due to the manner in which the search was done we had few good candidates apply. Erwin would have been excellent but he dropped out and we know why.
But in terms of a wish list since CG was not an option:

in order

Joey Florence
Joey McGuire
Brian Brazil
Bryan Erwin

JoFlo has a very proven track record. The success he enjoyd at Cooper and then Ryan is outstanding. He has proven he can win by airing it out or by being a ground based attack.

McGuire, why does he top your list?

Same with Brazil and Erwin?

Methinks Erwin's personality would not have gone over too well in Southlake plus he is a run first, run second and pass only if I absolutely have to type of coach. The first sign of failure and you all would have come unglued with him

CG is calling the offense now, right?

FatBoy of Troy
09-08-2010, 03:54 PM
I was hoping for Clayton George but he went to UNT with TD, Joey Florence would have been great, Brazil, McGuire but due to the manner in which the search was done we had few good candidates apply. Erwin would have been excellent but he dropped out and we know why.
But in terms of a wish list since CG was not an option:

in order

Joey Florence
Joey McGuire
Brian Brazil
Bryan Erwin
Did any of these guys even apply for the position?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 03:55 PM
Did any of these guys even apply for the position?

Erwin is the only one I know of that did.

There are many reasons that could lead to why the others didn't.

NHB06
09-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Ringo applied and some used car salesman

DrEdward
09-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Did any of these guys even apply for the position?

Only one of them and he accepted a job offer from Marcus before the Carroll interviewing even started.

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 04:02 PM
Hey it's the ebb and flow, the give and take, the yin and yang, There is no such thing as permanent dominance in High School Football.

If Southlake Carrol can be great for a while, well then there is every reason to think that other programs Cantu. ;):D

I love it when a guy from Florida pronounces the SLC program dead after one loss early in a season. It's not like the Dragons are gonna lose any more games this season, right? ;)

Besides, have you seen that new video board!! Sombody help us out here and post a picture. I heear that thing is huge!!


~

I was out there today looking around. The board is huge, no doubt. I wonder how much advert we will be subjected to as a consequence? :rolleyes:

steve_clements
09-08-2010, 04:07 PM
And Brett Shipp hadn't been to any 7 on 7's yet.;):rolleyes:




September 8, 2010
DEC Decision:
HEB ISD Did Not Violate UIL Rules
After WFAA aired its story last week, the UIL instructed HEB ISD to conduct an internal investigation and provide information to them and to the District 6-5A Executive Committee (DEC), the local governing body that deals with UIL rules enforcement.
We provided information they requested at a hearing held at 10:00 a.m. today. In an 8-0 decision, the DEC ruled that HEB ISD did not violate any UIL rules.
We are pleased with today’s ruling. We have said from day one that we wanted to participate in an official DEC investigation and that we would abide by their decision. We want to thank the DEC members for their work on this matter, and we want to thank the entire HEB community for your continued support.

yankee
09-08-2010, 04:08 PM
September 8, 2010
DEC Decision:
HEB ISD Did Not Violate UIL Rules
After WFAA aired its story last week, the UIL instructed HEB ISD to conduct an internal investigation and provide information to them and to the District 6-5A Executive Committee (DEC), the local governing body that deals with UIL rules enforcement.
We provided information they requested at a hearing held at 10:00 a.m. today. In an 8-0 decision, the DEC ruled that HEB ISD did not violate any UIL rules.
We are pleased with today’s ruling. We have said from day one that we wanted to participate in an official DEC investigation and that we would abide by their decision. We want to thank the DEC members for their work on this matter, and we want to thank the entire HEB community for your continued support.


oh hey look, good news!

drgnbkr
09-08-2010, 04:09 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

It has been said that there were several who were better equipped to step into the position. As has been pointed out previously, the media opened up the process so that several great coaches withdrew because it could have become public knowledge that they were interested, thus poisoning their then current position.

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 04:09 PM
oh hey look, good news!

different DEC. :rolleyes:

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 04:10 PM
JoFlo has a very proven track record. The success he enjoyd at Cooper and then Ryan is outstanding. He has proven he can win by airing it out or by being a ground based attack.

McGuire, why does he top your list?

Same with Brazil and Erwin?

Methinks Erwin's personality would not have gone over too well in Southlake plus he is a run first, run second and pass only if I absolutely have to type of coach. The first sign of failure and you all would have come unglued with him

CG is calling the offense now, right?

What McGuire has done at Cedar Hill is amazing, what Brazil has done at Hebron amazing. Very positive upbeat guys that kids love to play for. I had lunch with Brazil and he was just a great guy and someone I would like my kid to play for.
My list at the time included Erwin, he has been a successful coach, but you are correct, probably would not have been a good fit.

The Observer
09-08-2010, 04:11 PM
I was hoping for Clayton George but he went to UNT with TD, Joey Florence would have been great, Brazil, McGuire but due to the manner in which the search was done we had few good candidates apply. Erwin would have been excellent but he dropped out and we know why.
But in terms of a wish list since CG was not an option:

in order

Joey Florence
Joey McGuire
Brian Brazil
Bryan Erwin

'Pants - I gotta agree with what Doc Edward said on the team thread on the same subject a little while ago. I just don't think Carroll had a chance to get guys of this caliber. And I don't think its because Hal was a done deal before it was posted. He might have been, I honestly don't know, but regardless I don't see why this great list of applicants would have come calling. Those top 3 guys up there are not leaving where they are at for SLC, and I have to honestly wonder whether Erwin, given a choice, would have picked Marcus or Southlake. At that time, you were following a guy that had an unmatched run (whose kid was still QB to make it worse), and its not like Southlake pays any more than average. Now, you're asking people do you want to come to a place that is going after a coach 2 games into a season coming off 11-2. And again, the money won't be great. Not a whole lot of guys are going to sign up for that. And I would bet anything the 4 you mentioned wouldn't even look at it.

I also agree with FF about Erwin - if he did come, with his running style, people would have gone crazy at the first sign of trouble.

Thats my two cents on it, not trying to stir the pot more or defend anybody, just being realistic.

Bill4par
09-08-2010, 04:14 PM
I am not privy to the inner dealings of CISD or of the Carroll football program, so I can only comment on what I've seen directly in the years since Dodge left for North Texas.

I watched Carroll's last two eliminations from the playoffs in person (Cedar Hill 08, Arlington Bowie 09).

The most glaring difference I've noticed, compared to the Dodge years, is a distinct lack of killer instinct. Under Dodge, you knew Carroll would expose any cracks in the armor. They probed for weaknesses and attacked them ruthlessly and repeatedly. The defense was never comfortable.

This new regime has taken a much more subdued approach to the spread offense from what I've seen. They are using it more for ball control and steady conversion. Dodge was not afraid to run the ball when necessary and work the QB-RB game, but everything ultimately had a purpose. I do not see this same purpose in current Dragon teams.

Dodge's Carroll teams played the most confident brand of football I have seen at this level. This confidence and purpose of play are no longer present from what I have seen. As someone watching from the outside, it just doesn't look like the Dragons really believe in what they are doing any more.

ah KT you are so right!!! The killer instinct is the greatest skillset to have in any sport. Like leadership, it's an acquired skill. You learn it. It is a wonderful thing to see when a team learns how to do this. It's why I go to the games - it's worth the price of admission to see done right!! Great post!:)

dragonpants
09-08-2010, 04:18 PM
'Pants - I gotta agree with what Doc Edward said on the team thread on the same subject a little while ago. I just don't think Carroll had a chance to get guys of this caliber. And I don't think its because Hal was a done deal before it was posted. He might have been, I honestly don't know, bit regardless I don't see why this great list of applicants would have come calling. Those top 3 guys up there are not leaving where they are at for SLC, and I have to honestly wonder whether Erwin, given a choice, would have picked Marcus or Southlake. At that time, you were following a guy that had an unmatched run (whose kid was still QB to make it worse), and its not like Southlake pays any more than average. Now, you're asking people do you want to come to a place that is going after a coach 2 games into a season coming off 11-2. And again, the money won't be great. Not a whole lot of guys are going to sign up for that. And I would bet anything the 4 you mentioned wouldn't even look at it.

I also agree with FF about Erwin - if he did come, with his running style, people would have gone crazy at the first sign of trouble.

Thats my two cents on it, not trying to stir the pot more or defend anybody, just being realistic.

As I said it was a wish list. I think the next time we have to hire a coach we are going to have to pony up some $$$. At first I thought we might have a shot at JoFlo since he and TD are tight and certainly Todd would have trusted him with Riley, not that Todd was involved in the hiring process. I have heard there was some bad blood between Carroll and Joey that stemmed from a playoff game against Ryan before my time here but again just rumors.

The Observer
09-08-2010, 04:21 PM
As I said it was a wish list. I think the next time we have to hire a coach we are going to have to pony up some $$$. At first I thought we might have a shot at JoFlo since he and TD are tight and certainly Todd would have trusted him with Riley, not that Todd was involved in the hiring process. I have heard there was some bad blood between Carroll and Joey that stemmed from a playoff game against Ryan before my time here but again just rumors.

I will say this, when and if the time comes, if the $$$ is there (more than what its been in the past), then the list might expand some. but I doubt that the dollars will or can increase enough to "Westlake" somebody, which is what I think it would take.

mojotrain
09-08-2010, 04:26 PM
And for all the dumb statements that have been made on this board - this might top them all. You don't really believe that do you?

Yeah A H I sure do, whats in your wallet D A?

Montana79
09-08-2010, 04:32 PM
It has been said that there were several who were better equipped to step into the position. As has been pointed out previously, the media opened up the process so that several great coaches withdrew because it could have become public knowledge that they were interested, thus poisoning their then current position.

I certainly understand a coaches reluctance to have his name out there because of the public knowledge issue.

My question still goes back to Todd Dodge. Did dragon nation hold the same degree of contempt & venom for his hiring that they did when Wasson was hired? And if not, why not? After all, Dodge showed up at SLC with a very mediocre track record as a HC.

The Observer
09-08-2010, 04:37 PM
Yeah A H I sure do, whats in your wallet D A?

So to clarify, you are saying that two equal sized schools will always have the same talent, and coaching (or getting the right kids out to play) is all that seperates them?

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 04:38 PM
Your offense last year and in '08 wasn't that great. Why is that?

2000 and 2007 you all had a dang good offense though, why was that?

All of our offenses since 05 have been better than they would have been without the lessons learned from the state game that year.

Do I claim that talent makes no difference? Of course not. However I know from personal experience that what is inside of a player makes much more difference than what is on the outside. No? OK, put the brain of a gerbil in 6'5" 340 lb man and see what kind of football player he is - provided of course you can get him to walk on two legs instead of four.

It is the brain that makes a great player - not the brawn. It is the brain that tells the muscles what to do. If we put your brain in Greg McElroy's body you wouldn't be quarterbacking Alabama; you wouldn't be able to throw any better than you do now. Have you looked at him out of uniform? Tim Tebo he is not. You would never guess he was the Quarter Back for the National Champions. He looks like a business major.

Will Thompson - one of the best players ever at Katy was 5'8" and about 155 lbs. When you met him he looked like he belonged in the band - not on the field. Tell me how he could have been one of the best ever from a top tier school. Plenty of guys bigger, stronger, faster - why was he a great player and they weren't?

There is more to the equation than talent.

toonman
09-08-2010, 04:43 PM
What McGuire has done at Cedar Hill is amazing, what Brazil has done at Hebron amazing. Very positive upbeat guys that kids love to play for. I had lunch with Brazil and he was just a great guy and someone I would like my kid to play for.
My list at the time included Erwin, he has been a successful coach, but you are correct, probably would not have been a good fit.

No you are wrong. It just so happened that the talent suddenly arrived at these schools. The appointment of a new coach had nothing to do with the resulting success. These players would have managed themselves to a state title.

The Observer
09-08-2010, 04:46 PM
No you are wrong. It just so happened that the talent suddenly arrived at these schools. The appointment of a new coach had nothing to do with the resulting success. These players would have managed themselves to a state title.

Fair point on McGuire (getting Cedar Hill out of the wishbone helped), but Brazil was with Hebron since the school opened, so theres no previous coach to compare him with. I understand your point, though.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 04:48 PM
All of our offenses since 05 have been better than they would have been without the lessons learned from the state game that year.

Do I claim that talent makes no difference? Of course not. However I know from personal experience that what is inside of a player makes much more difference than what is on the outside. No? OK, put the brain of a gerbil in 6'5" 340 lb man and see what kind of football player he is - provided of course you can get him to walk on two legs instead of four.

It is the brain that makes a great player - not the brawn. It is the brain that tells the muscles what to do. If we put your brain in Greg McElroy's body you wouldn't be quarterbacking Alabama; you wouldn't be able to throw any better than you do now. Have you looked at him out of uniform? Tim Tebo he is not. You would never guess he was the Quarter Back for the National Champions. He looks like a business major.

Will Thompson - one of the best players ever at Katy was 5'8" and about 155 lbs. When you met him he looked like he belonged in the band - not on the field. Tell me how he could have been one of the best ever from a top tier school. Plenty of guys bigger, stronger, faster - why was he a great player and they weren't?

There is more to the equation than talent.

So are you saying that in 2006 and 2008 and 2009 the Katy offense was better than the Katy offense in 2000 or 2004 or even 2005? Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me you would take those 3 years baove the other 3 years? :rofl:

Your brain and brawn comparison is hilarious at best. While McElroy is incredibly smart, he is also incredibly gifted. He has thrown one of the absolute best passes any QB in this state has thrown. His arm strength was second to none in HS and he was the top of the list of schools like Tech and Bama not because he was so smart but because of the physical tools he has.

But if brains are so much more important than brawn or physical talent, then why has Dodge stuggled so much at every other stop, especially since he is such as genius?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 04:50 PM
No you are wrong. It just so happened that the talent suddenly arrived at these schools. The appointment of a new coach had nothing to do with the resulting success. These players would have managed themselves to a state title.

So how was Wasson able to beat McGwire in '07?

dragons08
09-08-2010, 04:52 PM
As I said it was a wish list. I think the next time we have to hire a coach we are going to have to pony up some $$$. At first I thought we might have a shot at JoFlo since he and TD are tight and certainly Todd would have trusted him with Riley, not that Todd was involved in the hiring process. I have heard there was some bad blood between Carroll and Joey that stemmed from a playoff game against Ryan before my time here but again just rumors.

I wouldn't be to sure on that...

FatBoy of Troy
09-08-2010, 05:03 PM
different DEC. :rolleyes:
Different set of circumstances being investigated. However, should BS continue the 7on7 / coaching issue with Carroll... perhaps your DEC will sit up and take notice, and tell this bottom feeder to take a hike. Maybe this part of the story is dead in the water... at least until Daxx's appeal.

Like a roach BS ain't gonna just go away. You can bank on it..when he reports this he will spin it to say the "DEC chose to look the other way, despite his "evidence". Bank on it.;)

maxtor
09-08-2010, 05:06 PM
Is the spread the only offense Dodge knows how to run? I would think a great coach could adjust to any type of offense and work with the kids he has to make them successful. I'm with FF on this. The more TD coaches at schools not named Southlake Carroll, the more I think his coaching ability comes into question. Not saying he's not good, we just haven't seen it anywhere else. That run he had at SLC was the perfect storm, may never be duplicated again. But he had a wealth of talent at his disposal.

My other question to some in dragon nation. I've heard some say they were not on board with the HW hiring when it was made. Why not? What was it about his hire at the time that many in SL didn't like? Just curious because it sure is easy to kick someone when they're down. However, 99% of schools in this state would love to be coming off an 11-2 season.

Actually only about 91.7%. Over 8% of the state had better records than SLC in 2009.

For the last 25 years SLC has won 86.1% of their games.

An 11-2 season has a 84.6 win %. So yes, 11-2 sucks for SLC. 11-2 is okay for much of the state but not Southlake. Is this arrogant or off putting? If so, step up your own program or move to one of those Brownstones next to Southlake Town Square.

Wasson has a 79.5% win rate at SLC depite inheriting the crown Jewel of football. And dont let people claim that the war chest was empty when he got here. There was still a pile of talent.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 05:09 PM
If his job at UNT can't be held against him and the job he did or didn't do at CY, NS and FRidge can't be held against him what can, his job at Carroll? Ok, thats fair. :)
See, like you all say I make excuses to why you all win or that I hate yall so much, you are making excuses for Dodge and his lack of success by citing he didn't spend a lot of time in the coaching ranks prior to coming up. But to each his own

me thinks that had td been a little more successful at ff's school, we might not ever have had these discussions.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=slcdragonfan;1594122]


Thank you. Yes, I do believe that Dodge benefitted far more from the kids at Carroll than the kids at Carroll did him. THats not saying he didnt have an impact on their lives or anything else, I think think the bigger impact was what the kids there did for him

i certainly can't quantify either contribution amounts or ratios, but i have heard many times around his office and from his coaches and players(moreso thru their actions actually), that there is no limit what a group of teammates can do when no one cares who gets the credit. most people think all this TEAMme stuff is not really very important, but it was pretty much how those kids lived. and you can not over-estimate how important charlie was, both in his coaching ability and the way he carried himself into the after-life. i miss that man.

thestomp
09-08-2010, 05:21 PM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

Really, all about talent, Really?

If thats the case then SLC much be an odd place when it comes to talent. I mean, using your rationale and everything. SLC must have had talent in the 80's and 90's under Ledbetter, lost all their talent for 3 years under Rapp, had another wave of talent come in under Dodge's tenure, and lost it again under Wasson (if you want to call 16 D1 schollies in 3 years, no talent).

Was Ledbetter lucky like Dodge? Was Rapp as unlucky as Wasson? LOL!

It all comes down to coaching, period. Wasson had 7 kids sign in 08 and again in 10. Thats hardly a case of a coach with nothing to work with.

As for Dodge, he stayed at his other stops 2 years apiece. I would expect you to know that. Two years at Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge. The 2nd year at every stop the teams were better. Records improved every year. In the early 90's when he was at 3A Yoe, do you think they ever had seen the spread offense. I highly doubt it. You don't walk into a new program, completely change the x's and o's and win, immediately. Its common knowledge, that every coach needs 3-4 years. Same song, different verse with Newman Smith and Fossil Ridge.

Wasson benefitted going to Fossil Ridge a few years after Dodge left, but with the same system in place for several years.

Its funny that Rapp struggled his 3 years at the helm, and Dodge had much more success with the exact same athletes, right away. Dodge's first two years at SLC were a success, but hardly the success he had later on. Did he not have the athletes then? It was his 3rd year that he started the "streak". A 3rd year he didn't have at the other stops. Did SLC not have talent his first 2, then all of a sudden get it? Or did he have time to fully implement his system?

And don't act like Wasson didn't step into a gold mine of talent. Dont blame it on that. 16 kids playing on Saturday's in 3 years is a boatload. The bottom line is that Wasson isn't half the coach Dodge is/was. Neither is the staff he has in place.

Farmer, in your opinion, is it magic that makes the talent at SLC suddenly appear, then disappear, when coaching changes happen? What a mystery!
Or is it the x's and o's.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 05:21 PM
You are correct - My professional achievements have provided me a fair amount of free time and the means to enjoy my life. :)

I shall limit my response to the singular point above and refrain from another round of oneupmanship with the "devoted gleaner".

Youre a professional.

Are successful.

Enjoy what life has to offer among other successful people in a crime free community.

You enjoy life.

And you live in Southlake where they have that giant list of achievements out front of the high School.


That is the recipe for what FarmerFan hates in his soul.:rofl:

yankee
09-08-2010, 05:24 PM
So if talent isn't a big factor then why did TD never make the playoffs until he arrived at Carroll?
See how we have come full circle on this or would this be half-circle? if TD gets the credit for the success Carroll had(which is fine) then why can't we explain his lack of success elsewhere and question if the man really is that good?

do you think bill belichick is a good coach?

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 05:26 PM
ah KT you are so right!!! The killer instinct is the greatest skillset to have in any sport. Like leadership, it's an acquired skill. You learn it. It is a wonderful thing to see when a team learns how to do this. It's why I go to the games - it's worth the price of admission to see done right!! Great post!:)

the pre-game talks always focused on killing the will, and at halftime there was always an exhotation to take the other team to a level at which they were uncomfortable playing. true killer instinct plans.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 05:30 PM
So Dodge blessed McElory with the arm and brains he had? I was told that Greg was a stud as a JR High QB and I doubt Dodge was workign with them then.
Did Dodge teac Cantu and Jacobson and Smiter and Fentris and Chandler how to run fast, catch balls and be 6'5?
Did Dodge see to it that Luna would be a very talented indidual and bless him with an ability to run the ball and block and play smar the way he did? Did Dodge have something to do with the genes given to Tre Newtwon and the pedigree that came with his name?

McElory had to wait his time out at Bama and chances are if he were at FRidge or Carroll would have been offered. Same with Jacobson simply due to his speed and athleticisim. While Dodge helped to shape those kids to fit into his system and he did a godo job, some of you people think he walked on water and can't explain his lack of success elsewhere other than he cuaght lightning in a bottle at Carroll.

FarmerFan is right. I've said the same thing many times Farmer. People underrate SLC's talent to make Dodge look better than what he really is. Cantu, Jacobson, Renfro, Smiter, and Ford at the WR positions will make a lot of coaches look like geniuses at the H.S. level that run a spread.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 05:30 PM
I certainly understand a coaches reluctance to have his name out there because of the public knowledge issue.

My question still goes back to Todd Dodge. Did dragon nation hold the same degree of contempt & venom for his hiring that they did when Wasson was hired? And if not, why not? After all, Dodge showed up at SLC with a very mediocre track record as a HC.

considering who he replaced, had he not been hired, i'd not be dd right now, that's for sure. the bar was pretty low after the antics of 99.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 05:31 PM
Really, all about talent, Really?

If thats the case then SLC much be an odd place when it comes to talent. I mean, using your rationale and everything. SLC must have had talent in the 80's and 90's under Ledbetter, lost all their talent for 3 years under Rapp, had another wave of talent come in under Dodge's tenure, and lost it again under Wasson (if you want to call 16 D1 schollies in 3 years, no talent).

Was Ledbetter lucky like Dodge? Was Rapp as unlucky as Wasson? LOL!

It all comes down to coaching, period. Wasson had 7 kids sign in 08 and again in 10. Thats hardly a case of a coach with nothing to work with.

As for Dodge, he stayed at his other stops 2 years apiece. I would expect you to know that. Two years at Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge. The 2nd year at every stop the teams were better. Records improved every year. In the early 90's when he was at 3A Yoe, do you think they ever had seen the spread offense. I highly doubt it. You don't walk into a new program, completely change the x's and o's and win, immediately. Its common knowledge, that every coach needs 3-4 years. Same song, different verse with Newman Smith and Fossil Ridge.

Wasson benefitted going to Fossil Ridge a few years after Dodge left, but with the same system in place for several years.

Its funny that Rapp struggled his 3 years at the helm, and Dodge had much more success with the exact same athletes, right away. Dodge's first two years at SLC were a success, but hardly the success he had later on. Did he not have the athletes then? It was his 3rd year that he started the "streak". A 3rd year he didn't have at the other stops. Did SLC not have talent his first 2, then all of a sudden get it? Or did he have time to fully implement his system?

And don't act like Wasson didn't step into a gold mine of talent. Dont blame it on that. 16 kids playing on Saturday's in 3 years is a boatload. The bottom line is that Wasson isn't half the coach Dodge is/was. Neither is the staff he has in place.

Farmer, in your opinion, is it magic that makes the talent at SLC suddenly appear, then disappear, when coaching changes happen? What a mystery!
Or is it the x's and o's.

:notworthy

That is exactly what I would have said if I knew what i was talking about.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:38 PM
Really, all about talent, Really?

If thats the case then SLC much be an odd place when it comes to talent. I mean, using your rationale and everything. SLC must have had talent in the 80's and 90's under Ledbetter, lost all their talent for 3 years under Rapp, had another wave of talent come in under Dodge's tenure, and lost it again under Wasson (if you want to call 16 D1 schollies in 3 years, no talent).

Was Ledbetter lucky like Dodge? Was Rapp as unlucky as Wasson? LOL!

It all comes down to coaching, period. Wasson had 7 kids sign in 08 and again in 10. Thats hardly a case of a coach with nothing to work with.

As for Dodge, he stayed at his other stops 2 years apiece. I would expect you to know that. Two years at Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge. The 2nd year at every stop the teams were better. Records improved every year. In the early 90's when he was at 3A Yoe, do you think they ever had seen the spread offense. I highly doubt it. You don't walk into a new program, completely change the x's and o's and win, immediately. Its common knowledge, that every coach needs 3-4 years. Same song, different verse with Newman Smith and Fossil Ridge.

Wasson benefitted going to Fossil Ridge a few years after Dodge left, but with the same system in place for several years.

Its funny that Rapp struggled his 3 years at the helm, and Dodge had much more success with the exact same athletes, right away. Dodge's first two years at SLC were a success, but hardly the success he had later on. Did he not have the athletes then? It was his 3rd year that he started the "streak". A 3rd year he didn't have at the other stops. Did SLC not have talent his first 2, then all of a sudden get it? Or did he have time to fully implement his system?

And don't act like Wasson didn't step into a gold mine of talent. Dont blame it on that. 16 kids playing on Saturday's in 3 years is a boatload. The bottom line is that Wasson isn't half the coach Dodge is/was. Neither is the staff he has in place.

Farmer, in your opinion, is it magic that makes the talent at SLC suddenly appear, then disappear, when coaching changes happen? What a mystery!
Or is it the x's and o's.

But yet, he was still not good enough to make the playoff at any of those stops was he?

If it takes 3-4 years for coaches to est their program, how could Dodge manage to take a team that didnt even make the playoffs and go 4 deep again?

You want to get into other coaches who were able to make the playoffs in year 1 at their new stops?

The talent that Carroll had in their 3A days was comprable to the level of talent they had at their hands now. Thats the biggest myth about Southlake is that they win with all this hard word and dedication, while that plays a part the talent they are able to put out on the field certainly helps their cause a lot mor than it hurts it.

Once again, we all have est that Dodges teams at Carroll were great. But why has he been mediocre to a failure everywhere else?

If GA Moore can take Aubrey to the playoffs in year 1 why can't Dodge take Yoe at least by year 2?

If Brian Erwin can come in and take Marcus to the playoffs and 9-3 in year 1, why can't Dodge take Newman Smith by year 2?

If Kenny Perry can go to Sam Houston and Bowie and all have them in the playoffs by year 2, why can't Dodge do the same at FRidge?

Dodge certainly benifitted from far more breaks than Wasson, no? Is this where I bring up injuries? How about the lucky call that saved his butt against Sam Houston in '02?

If X's and O's is what Dodge is so great at then once again explain to me why he has never been above average in any other stop?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 05:42 PM
i certainly can't quantify either contribution amounts or ratios, but i have heard many times around his office and from his coaches and players(moreso thru their actions actually), that there is no limit what a group of teammates can do when no one cares who gets the credit. most people think all this TEAMme stuff is not really very important, but it was pretty much how those kids lived. and you can not over-estimate how important charlie was, both in his coaching ability and the way he carried himself into the after-life. i miss that man.

Please fix the quotes, I did not say that FF did.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:43 PM
me thinks that had td been a little more successful at ff's school, we might not ever have had these discussions.

Would you pay me $225,000 a year to come run your farm and have results like Todd has experienced at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:47 PM
do you think bill belichick is a good coach?

Remind me again, did Belichick have a winning record and make the playoffs at Cleveland again? Oh that's right he did.

Now where again outside of Southlake Carroll has Dodge even sniffed success?

yankee
09-08-2010, 05:49 PM
Remind me again, did Belichick have a winning record and make the playoffs at Cleveland again? Oh that's right he did.

Now where again outside of Southlake Carroll has Dodge even sniffed success?

so based off of one playoff win, you'd call belichick's time in cleveland a success? do you think he's a good coach?

thestomp
09-08-2010, 05:50 PM
Good God. Are you comparing Erwin and Perry to Dodge? If so, I shouldn't even waste my time on you!

For starters, places like Cameron Yoe, were power football teams when Dodge got there. Heck, they may have even ran the triple-I. It was the early 90's, other than Marcus, and maybe Baytown Lee, who else was running the spread. He completely changed everything. Same thing with Newman Smith and KFR. Like I said, he stayed two years, don't underestimate that. In his first 2 years at SLC he lost 10 games, must have been the talent.

One thing Dodge had going for him at SLC that he didn't at the other stops was the tradition. Winning has been a part of that program since you were probably born. All they needed was direction and coaching. The same things that Ledbetter offered them. Obviously, Rapp and Wasson has not.

Dodge's teams at all his stops were better in the 2nd year, than the 1st. FACT. How do you know that with another year or two, that they wouldn't have been 3-4 rounds deep. Who do you know that is gonna walk into Newman Smith, and in 2 years make them a contender. Back in the 90's especially? Same with Fossil Ridge. Name them.

Blaming it on talent is very shallow and makes you unaware of the facts.

I know one thing though. You'd wet your bed if Dodge was named the head coach at Lewisville next year.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:51 PM
so based off of one playoff win, you'd call belichick's time in cleveland a success? do you think he's a good coach?

He has taken more than one team to the playoffs, that certainly puts him in better company than Dodge, no?

I think you would make a much better coach than Belichick but yes, he is a good coach based on showing he can win outside of New England. Dodge still cant show he can win without the talent he had at Carroll

thestomp
09-08-2010, 05:51 PM
Would you pay me $225,000 a year to come run your farm and have results like Todd has experienced at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT?

With your logic I wouldn't give you a Buffalo nickel to pump my septic tank.

thestomp
09-08-2010, 05:54 PM
He has taken more than one team to the playoffs, that certainly puts him in better company than Dodge, no?

I think you would make a much better coach than Belichick but yes, he is a good coach based on showing he can win outside of New England. Dodge still cant show he can win without the talent he had at Carroll

Like Rapp, Wasson has proved he can't win with the same talent that their predecessors had.

Its clearly about coaching, thats why Rapp and Wasson have struggled. You can't prove otherwise.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:56 PM
Good God. Are you comparing Erwin and Perry to Dodge? If so, I shouldn't even waste my time on you!

For starters, places like Cameron Yoe, were power football teams when Dodge got there. Heck, they may have even ran the triple-I. It was the early 90's, other than Marcus, and maybe Baytown Lee, who else was running the spread. He completely changed everything. Same thing with Newman Smith and KFR. Like I said, he stayed two years, don't underestimate that. In his first 2 years at SLC he lost 10 games, must have been the talent.

One thing Dodge had going for him at SLC that he didn't at the other stops was the tradition. Winning has been a part of that program since you were probably born. All they needed was direction and coaching. The same things that Ledbetter offered them. Obviously, Rapp and Wasson has not.

Dodge's teams at all his stops were better in the 2nd year, than the 1st. FACT. How do you know that with another year or two, that they wouldn't have been 3-4 rounds deep. Who do you know that is gonna walk into Newman Smith, and in 2 years make them a contender. Back in the 90's especially? Same with Fossil Ridge. Name them.

Blaming it on talent is very shallow and makes you unaware of the facts.

I know one thing though. You'd wet your bed if Dodge was named the head coach at Lewisville next year.

So now you are blaming Dodges lack of success on the kids and the system he tried to install? Are you saying he is that bad that he can not adapt to his own personell? Brian Erwin came into Marcus and took them to 9-3 in year 1 and Marcus had not been anything close to a power running team, guess waht they were under Erwin in year 1?

As for Dodge being named the next coach at Lewisville and wetting my bed, thats funny but no. I have told people as much in PM's.

Once again what am I blaming on the talent? I am simply pointing out that the talent Dodge had at Carroll was something no other school has had before. Show me again a school that produced a string of QB's, WR's, RB;s and OLine in the amount of time that Carroll did when Dodge was there. THe facts are he had an ungodly amount of talent at Carroll that made him into this legend of a great coach that he is.
Looking past his lack of success at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT is ignoring plenty more facts.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 05:58 PM
Really, all about talent, Really?

If thats the case then SLC much be an odd place when it comes to talent. I mean, using your rationale and everything. SLC must have had talent in the 80's and 90's under Ledbetter, lost all their talent for 3 years under Rapp, had another wave of talent come in under Dodge's tenure, and lost it again under Wasson (if you want to call 16 D1 schollies in 3 years, no talent).



Dodge's talent


All division 1 players that play

QB-Greg McElroy
QB-Chase Daniel
WR-Cantu
WR-Jacobson
WR-Scott Chandler
HB-Newton
OL-Ulatoski


Please match up the guys Hal has coached that match up to these players at those positions. Dodge's teams won on offense not defense(06 being the exception). Last time I looked Hal has coached one WR that has even gone on to play collegiate ball, and that's at a division 2 school(Don't feel like looking it up).

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 05:58 PM
With your logic I wouldn't give you a Buffalo nickel to pump my septic tank.

Logic of what? that in Dodges coaching career he has been average to below average in every place he has coached at except Southlake?

Yeah, that's worth being paid the money he is in Denton. Great ROI for UNT

mojotrain
09-08-2010, 05:58 PM
So to clarify, you are saying that two equal sized schools will always have the same talent, and coaching (or getting the right kids out to play) is all that seperates them?

Real slow like, for you.

The next one hundred boy children out of the womb @ SL, the next 100 boy children out of the womb in Midland, the next 100 boy children out of the womb in Monahans, the next 100 boy children out of the womb in Tyler will have no more sporting capacity or intellengence capacity than the next 100 boy children out of the womb in Odessa Texas. From the second they hit a towel it's all up to coaching and?or teaching.

Now here comes the really part for ya! It's questions.

Do you think more talent is born in Abilene than Lubbock?
Do you think more talent is born in Abilene than SL?
Do you think more talent is born in Abilene than Cedar Hill?
If you answer yes to the above, why would you think so?

Do you need a list of dynastys in Texas High school football who fell from the top ranks after a coaching change? I mean like married couples just lost their capacity for producing talent that just happened to coincide with a coachs departure.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:00 PM
Like Rapp, Wasson has proved he can't win with the same talent that their predecessors had.

Its clearly about coaching, thats why Rapp and Wasson have struggled. You can't prove otherwise.

Sure I can.

If it's not about the talent that Dodge had to work with then he would have won in places like Yoe, Smith and FRidge but he didn't.

Todd Dodge was made by the kids at Carroll not the other way around. Without them he is just an average football coach.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:02 PM
Dodge's talent


All division 1 players that play

QB-Greg McElroy
QB-Chase Daniel
WR-Cantu
WR-Jacobson
WR-Scott Chandler
HB-Newton
OL-Ulatoski


Please match up the guys Hal has coached that match up to these players at those positions. Dodge's teams won on offense not defense(06 being the exception). Last time I looked Hal has coached one WR that has even gone on to play collegiate ball, and that's at a division 2 school(Don't feel like looking it up).

Rice had one last week in Fentris or Smiter that is playing for Rice. That was on Dodges teams too

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:03 PM
But yet, he was still not good enough to make the playoff at any of those stops was he?

If it takes 3-4 years for coaches to est their program, how could Dodge manage to take a team that didnt even make the playoffs and go 4 deep again?

You want to get into other coaches who were able to make the playoffs in year 1 at their new stops?

The talent that Carroll had in their 3A days was comprable to the level of talent they had at their hands now. Thats the biggest myth about Southlake is that they win with all this hard word and dedication, while that plays a part the talent they are able to put out on the field certainly helps their cause a lot mor than it hurts it.

Once again, we all have est that Dodges teams at Carroll were great. But why has he been mediocre to a failure everywhere else?

If GA Moore can take Aubrey to the playoffs in year 1 why can't Dodge take Yoe at least by year 2?

If Brian Erwin can come in and take Marcus to the playoffs and 9-3 in year 1, why can't Dodge take Newman Smith by year 2?

If Kenny Perry can go to Sam Houston and Bowie and all have them in the playoffs by year 2, why can't Dodge do the same at FRidge?

Dodge certainly benifitted from far more breaks than Wasson, no? Is this where I bring up injuries? How about the lucky call that saved his butt against Sam Houston in '02?

If X's and O's is what Dodge is so great at then once again explain to me why he has never been above average in any other stop?

were the 2a schools taking 2 teams to the po's in 94-95?

that lucky call, albeit the correct lucky call did save them. the luck was that big boy was faster that day than ever before or since.

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 06:06 PM
I in fact disagree with you on this FF. I realize that Dodge had talent. I also think he did more with it than others might have. Whether he is great or not? I don't care, he was great at SLC. I think about halftime adjustments we made during various games, and they were brilliant. He also knew how to use the "fear" factor. Little things like running the ball up the middle 30s before game ends to get better field position for a FG and the RB bounces outside to the wrong hash did not occur then. Little things like the WR always being aware of the clock and the first down marker. Little things like calling a TO when the QB is sacked with 30 s to go. Little things like a player standing up the WR for Allen and another player coming up and snatching the ball out of his arms.

It is the little adjustments, and the little things, the details of which kid fit where, knowing the 7th and 8th graders, making sure you knew what was happening in the lower programs, knowing who should be developed where, that made a big difference. And there was a philosophy behind it, it felt like BIGGER things were at play here than just football.

I am not knocking anyone here. I just felt that was a very special time. It is quite possible that Dodge would have the same record as we have had since he left.

Now I am done here. This is a distraction, we used to use this time to talk about our team and the scores and the opponents. It is really non-productive until the offseason.

thestomp
09-08-2010, 06:06 PM
So now you are blaming Dodges lack of success on the kids and the system he tried to install? Are you saying he is that bad that he can not adapt to his own personell? Brian Erwin came into Marcus and took them to 9-3 in year 1 and Marcus had not been anything close to a power running team, guess waht they were under Erwin in year 1?

As for Dodge being named the next coach at Lewisville and wetting my bed, thats funny but no. I have told people as much in PM's.

Once again what am I blaming on the talent? I am simply pointing out that the talent Dodge had at Carroll was something no other school has had before. Show me again a school that produced a string of QB's, WR's, RB;s and OLine in the amount of time that Carroll did when Dodge was there. THe facts are he had an ungodly amount of talent at Carroll that made him into this legend of a great coach that he is.
Looking past his lack of success at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT is ignoring plenty more facts.

I'm saying that in the 90's the spread was as foreign as the veer is today. You don't overhaul a system at a school that has never played that style and win immediately. How is that hard to comprehend. At every place he's been he had 5-5 records, 2 games improved over the 1st year.

Using your logic, Longview didn't have talent under Robert Bero. He struggled at times, and didn't have near the success that King has had. Yet everyone knows that Longview is always chock full with athletes. Whats the reason behind their success? King is a better coach, and has a better staff.

And since you love to bring up playoff appearances, lets look at that. In the 90's only 2 (3A) schools made the playoffs. At 5-5 he would have probably got in. Nowadays 4 (4A) schools get in. Not 2 or 3 like 20+ years ago. Plenty of 5-5 teams make the playoffs and win games.

Where has all the talent gone? What makes it disappear every coaching change. Its really fascinating, and I'd love to know.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:07 PM
Would you pay me $225,000 a year to come run your farm and have results like Todd has experienced at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT?

see, i told you so.

and no, i wouldn't pay you that even if you were going to win 79-80. sorry, my farm is playing 6 man now, and is hoping to jump up to 8 man soon. if we ever get to 11 man, it'll still be 1a and even you couldn't recruit enough talent to justify that kind of pay.

ray1301
09-08-2010, 06:08 PM
SLC is not the only football team in Texas to have won 4 straight championships. I think it was the right talent, at the right time, with the win at all cost attitude, and the right coaching staff for the situation.

Sealy accomplished a similar feat but it cost them dearly. The win at all costs worked for four years but it broke the program. Sealy slid into a serious slump. They are climbing back out now. But to me it is the same thing. It wasn't just the coaching staff and it wasn't just the talent pool.

TJ Mills moved on to OP and got fired after one season. He couldn't replicate the success.

Why is that? Hmmm?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:09 PM
were the 2a schools taking 2 teams to the po's in 94-95?

that lucky call, albeit the correct lucky call did save them. the luck was that big boy was faster that day than ever before or since.

Yes they were.

Depends on what perspective you look at it from. The people from Sam swear it ws the wrong call. I am neutral so Im going to shut up on that for the rest of the discussion

thestomp
09-08-2010, 06:10 PM
Dodge's talent


All division 1 players that play

QB-Greg McElroy
QB-Chase Daniel
WR-Cantu
WR-Jacobson
WR-Scott Chandler
HB-Newton
OL-Ulatoski


Please match up the guys Hal has coached that match up to these players at those positions. Dodge's teams won on offense not defense(06 being the exception). Last time I looked Hal has coached one WR that has even gone on to play collegiate ball, and that's at a division 2 school(Don't feel like looking it up).

And Wasson was loaded in 07 and 09. 7 kids signed apiece. Thats plenty of talent to win, regardless of how you spin it.

So in order to win big in the playoffs you have to have several D1 receivers? Wasson has still had D1 QB's, OL, and more defensive talent than Dodge ever had.

If it takes several D1 WR's to win out of the spread, how in the world did Abilene and Cedar Hill win state titles in the past few years? Abilene had 1 D1 kid on the entire team. Maybe its great coaching......

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 06:11 PM
So are you saying that in 2006 and 2008 and 2009 the Katy offense was better than the Katy offense in 2000 or 2004 or even 2005? Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me you would take those 3 years baove the other 3 years? :rofl:

Your brain and brawn comparison is hilarious at best. While McElroy is incredibly smart, he is also incredibly gifted. He has thrown one of the absolute best passes any QB in this state has thrown. His arm strength was second to none in HS and he was the top of the list of schools like Tech and Bama not because he was so smart but because of the physical tools he has.

But if brains are so much more important than brawn or physical talent, then why has Dodge stuggled so much at every other stop, especially since he is such as genius?

You think that brains are not more important than brawn? Lets put your brain in my body. I will tell you what you will be: a short fat helpless 62 year old man. I'll tell you what you won't be, you won't be a 6th degree black belt who is considered among the 10 best in the world in a martial art. You won't be playing better table tennis today than I did in 1985 when my brother and I won a US Open championship. What is your excuse for not achieving what I have achieved?

McElroy never would have been a football player in the first place if he had the sort of brain that wanted to be in the band rather than in the game.

I notice you didn't have anything to say about Will Thompson did you. That is because you couldn't say anything.

Dodge struggles because he can't get people to believe in what he is telling them. THAT IS MAINLY THEIR FAULT.

TGO talked about this when he said that in his opinion any normal able bodied person had the physical potential to be an NFL player. Nobody wanted to believe him because it meant all our athletic failures in life were our own faults, and nobody wanted to hear that. Well, he is dead on the money - right. People want to blame someone else for their shortcomings - saying you weren't given the talent is just trying to blame God instead of yourself.

What do you think God's view of that sorry excuse is?

maxtor
09-08-2010, 06:12 PM
FarmerFan is right. I've said the same thing many times Farmer. People underrate SLC's talent to make Dodge look better than what he really is. Cantu, Jacobson, Renfro, Smiter, and Ford at the WR positions will make a lot of coaches look like geniuses at the H.S. level that run a spread.

Here is a list of who Wasson had in part;

Justin Agnew, Tommy Avers, Chris Brainard, Blake Cantu, Rylie Dodge, Cade foster, Nick Leppo, Tre Newton, Kyle Padron, Mitchell Osborne, Jackson Richards, Mason Hathaway, Kacy Rodgers and another 3 to 4 I forgot about.

yankee
09-08-2010, 06:13 PM
He has taken more than one team to the playoffs, that certainly puts him in better company than Dodge, no?

I think you would make a much better coach than Belichick but yes, he is a good coach based on showing he can win outside of New England. Dodge still cant show he can win without the talent he had at Carroll

debatable on the first part. that one playoff season/win was an outlier. he compiled a 36-44 record at cleveland. i don't think too many people considered him a good head coach before coming to new england. as far as winning outside of new england...once again, a losing record with cleveland. hardly impressive.

my point is this. not all the success of the early 2000's can be attributed to coach dodge, but you can't take that away from him either. it was the right mix of talent and coaching. just like it has been for belichick.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:13 PM
I in fact disagree with you on this FF. I realize that Dodge had talent. I also think he did more with it than others might have. Whether he is great or not? I don't care, he was great at SLC. I think about halftime adjustments we made during various games, and they were brilliant. He also knew how to use the "fear" factor. Little things like running the ball up the middle 30s before game ends to get better field position for a FG and the RB bounces outside to the wrong hash did not occur then. Little things like the WR always being aware of the clock and the first down marker. Little things like calling a TO when the QB is sacked with 30 s to go. Little things like a player standing up the WR for Allen and another player coming up and snatching the ball out of his arms.

It is the little adjustments, and the little things, the details of which kid fit where, knowing the 7th and 8th graders, making sure you knew what was happening in the lower programs, knowing who should be developed where, that made a big difference. And there was a philosophy behind it, it felt like BIGGER things were at play here than just football.

I am not knocking anyone here. I just felt that was a very special time. It is quite possible that Dodge would have the same record as we have had since he left.

Now I am done here. This is a distraction, we used to use this time to talk about our team and the scores and the opponents. It is really non-productive until the offseason.

All fair points and things you observed first hand and nobody can take the success he and you all had during his time there. But what one can do is question how good he really is do to the other places he has been and not even making the playoffs or having 1 winning record. But that seems to be lsot or "the system" didn't have time to develop which in essence is saying the same thing of, he didn't have the talent at hand to run what he wanted to

Fleeman93
09-08-2010, 06:18 PM
Your offense last year and in '08 wasn't that great. Why is that?

2000 and 2007 you all had a dang good offense though, why was that?

I beg to differ about the 08 offense. The 08 offense turned into a very efficient offense in the playoffs and in Katy system that never is a bad thing. They weren't lights out high scoring but they controlled the clock and didn't make mistakes which kept the defense fresh (think 03' team). You know exactly why our offense wasn't good last year but I'm not going to say it because you will just make fun of me (very obvious to say the least).

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:18 PM
I'm saying that in the 90's the spread was as foreign as the veer is today. You don't overhaul a system at a school that has never played that style and win immediately. How is that hard to comprehend. At every place he's been he had 5-5 records, 2 games improved over the 1st year.

Using your logic, Longview didn't have talent under Robert Bero. He struggled at times, and didn't have near the success that King has had. Yet everyone knows that Longview is always chock full with athletes. Whats the reason behind their success? King is a better coach, and has a better staff.

And since you love to bring up playoff appearances, lets look at that. In the 90's only 2 (3A) schools made the playoffs. At 5-5 he would have probably got in. Nowadays 4 (4A) schools get in. Not 2 or 3 like 20+ years ago. Plenty of 5-5 teams make the playoffs and win games.

Where has all the talent gone? What makes it disappear every coaching change. Its really fascinating, and I'd love to know.

GA got in as a second place team at Auburey in year 1 but Dodge couldn't at Yoe. JoFlo and Erwin and Perry all got in as 2nd-3rd place teams at their respective schools and in JoFlo and Perrys case only 3 team got into the playoffs then too, just like Dodge had at NS and FRidge but yet he could still never make the playoffs there. Erwin got in as a 2nd place team in '07 going 9-3 in year 1 ar Marcus so your attempt at trying to downplay the comparision is full of fail.

Please, once again, explain to me why Dodge has been average every place he has been outside of Carroll? You keep saying because the kids couldnt adapt to his system. Hmm, imagine now if he had good talent at his disposal or an all-state QB and WR to work with what he might have done. Oh no.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:19 PM
So now you are blaming Dodges lack of success on the kids and the system he tried to install? Are you saying he is that bad that he can not adapt to his own personell? Brian Erwin came into Marcus and took them to 9-3 in year 1 and Marcus had not been anything close to a power running team, guess waht they were under Erwin in year 1?

As for Dodge being named the next coach at Lewisville and wetting my bed, thats funny but no. I have told people as much in PM's.

Once again what am I blaming on the talent? I am simply pointing out that the talent Dodge had at Carroll was something no other school has had before. Show me again a school that produced a string of QB's, WR's, RB;s and OLine in the amount of time that Carroll did when Dodge was there. THe facts are he had an ungodly amount of talent at Carroll that made him into this legend of a great coach that he is.
Looking past his lack of success at Yoe, Smith, FRidge and UNT is ignoring plenty more facts.
those successful qbs were in fact a direct result of td. you can filibuster til you run out of bud, but that is a fact. he may not have been successful winning titles at other places, but when given a chance and the time, he can flat coach up a qb. he was good at pre-selecting the talent(he always had the first 8-10 draft picks) and worked them extremely hard and thoroughly. if you want to ask cd, or gm who the best qb coach they've ever been involved with, i'd bet a case of cheap ******* what the answer is.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:20 PM
And Wasson was loaded in 07 and 09. 7 kids signed apiece. Thats plenty of talent to win, regardless of how you spin it.

So in order to win big in the playoffs you have to have several D1 receivers? Wasson has still had D1 QB's, OL, and more defensive talent than Dodge ever had.

If it takes several D1 WR's to win out of the spread, how in the world did Abilene and Cedar Hill win state titles in the past few years? Abilene had 1 D1 kid on the entire team. Maybe its great coaching......

So Wasson didn't win in '07 or '09?

Carroll fans swear that Riley going out in '07 is why they lost to Abilene, do you believe that?

slcdragonfan
09-08-2010, 06:23 PM
All fair points and things you observed first hand and nobody can take the success he and you all had during his time there. But what one can do is question how good he really is do to the other places he has been and not even making the playoffs or having 1 winning record. But that seems to be lsot or "the system" didn't have time to develop which in essence is saying the same thing of, he didn't have the talent at hand to run what he wanted to

one thing I didn't mention: Dodge had great luck wrt injuries. In 2007, we had two startin O-Line out during the MNW game, one for the season. We lost Tre to a high ankle sprain for a while, then lost Dodge. In 2008 we lost Padron. There were others out as well, all of which did not occur for the most part with Dodge.

Now I am REALLY out.

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:24 PM
Dodge's talent


All division 1 players that play

QB-Greg McElroy
QB-Chase Daniel
WR-Cantu(probably out of football)
WR-Jacobson
WR-Scott Chandler
HB-Newton
OL-Ulatoski
K-Hartley
LB- Pete fleps
WR-Corbin Smiter
QB-Kyle Padron(trained up by TD)

Please match up the guys Hal has coached that match up to these players at those positions. Dodge's teams won on offense not defense(06 being the exception). Last time I looked Hal has coached one WR that has even gone on to play collegiate ball, and that's at a division 2 school(Don't feel like looking it up).

fify, and there's likely more

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:25 PM
You think that brains are not more important than brawn? Lets put your brain in my body. I will tell you what you will be: a short fat helpless 62 year old man. I'll tell you what you won't be, you won't be a 6th degree black belt who is considered among the 10 best in the world in a martial art. You won't be playing better table tennis today than I did in 1985 when my brother and I won a US Open championship. What is your excuse for not achieving what I have achieved?

McElroy never would have been a football player in the first place if he had the sort of brain that wanted to be in the band rather than in the game.

I notice you didn't have anything to say about Will Thompson did you. That is because you couldn't say anything.

Dodge struggles because he can't get people to believe in what he is telling them. THAT IS MAINLY THEIR FAULT.

TGO talked about this when he said that in his opinion any normal able bodied person had the physical potential to be an NFL player. Nobody wanted to believe him because it meant all our athletic failures in life were our own faults, and nobody wanted to hear that. Well, he is dead on the money - right. People want to blame someone else for their shortcomings - saying you weren't given the talent is just trying to blame God instead of yourself.

What do you think God's view of that sorry excuse is?

So McElroy's brain is what allowed him to have the arm strength and pin-point accuracy he did in HS? McElroys brain is what allowed him to throw one of the best deep balls this state has ever seen on the HS level? McElroys brain is what allowed him to be 6'2 instead of 5'10? Ok.

So, will an NFL team draft or even consider a guy who is 5'9 to play tackle? How about a guy who is 5'8 to play TE? Or a guy who is 5'10 to play QB?

As for Will Thompson, he might have been small but lets bring up Jared Kaspar or Jamel Branch or Fuda or Dean or Mitchell or Donovan Young or some of those linemen and DB's you guys have had over the years.

yankee
09-08-2010, 06:26 PM
fify, and there's likely more

kyle padron was trained up by dodge? padron spent his junior and senior seasons under wasson...was dodge that involved with the JV team quarterbacks and training them up?

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 06:26 PM
Rice had one last week in Fentris or Smiter that is playing for Rice. That was on Dodges teams too

I just listed BCS division 1 schools:)

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:28 PM
Here is a list of who Wasson had in part;

Justin Agnew, Tommy Avers, Chris Brainard, Blake Cantu, Rylie Dodge, Cade foster, Nick Leppo, Tre Newton, Kyle Padron, Mitchell Osborne, Jackson Richards, Mason Hathaway, Kacy Rodgers and another 3 to 4 I forgot about.

I could have sworn Wasson didn't have those guys and you al lwould have won state with them had they played. At least with Riley. Are we now finally admitting no? Because Wasson did not have those guys at his disposal when the final snap of their respective seasons occurred

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:32 PM
those successful qbs were in fact a direct result of td. you can filibuster til you run out of bud, but that is a fact. he may not have been successful winning titles at other places, but when given a chance and the time, he can flat coach up a qb. he was good at pre-selecting the talent(he always had the first 8-10 draft picks) and worked them extremely hard and thoroughly. if you want to ask cd, or gm who the best qb coach they've ever been involved with, i'd bet a case of cheap ******* what the answer is.

Does that mean If I'm wrong I have to buy a case of Cheap ******* from you? It would be worth it to take that bet if that was the case :)

I think I am on record earlier saying he could coach up a QB and did a fine job with that but there were othe contributing factors to that and it helped for those QB's to have guys like your number 2, Chandler, our very own Crunked, Jacobson, Renfro, Smiter, Fentris, Cantu and more I am sure. Same with those lines he had. The 05 line still remains one of the biggest and best lines I have see and while you can coach an OLine those line had plenty of talent going for it too

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:32 PM
kyle padron was trained up by dodge? padron spent his junior and senior seasons under wasson...was dodge that involved with the JV team quarterbacks and training them up?

you do realize that 7th grade coaches had to get td's blessing to decide who'd play qb. kp was trained by dodge for several years. hw finished the job that was started by td.

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 06:32 PM
Now I'll address the offensive situation at Katy.

All of the problems with the 08 offense were mental - the proof of that is where the season ended. If the problem had been physical it couldn't have been cured. The 08 Katy teams was one of the least physically talented teams to ever win a state championship. At most schools they would have been 3 and 7.

The 09 offensive problems were also all mental - they didn't ever get completely cured.

yankee
09-08-2010, 06:34 PM
you do realize that 7th grade coaches had to get td's blessing to decide who'd play qb. kp was trained by dodge for several years. hw finished the job that was started by td.

hmmm, i guess i didn't know dodge was so involved with 7th, 8th, 9th, and JV team QB's.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:35 PM
I just listed BCS division 1 schools:)

Gotcha

Last time Dodge coached against Rice the Owls looked like a BCS conference team ;):D God I hope that doesn't happen this week. but not much to be encouraged about when you can hold the football for 41 mins and only muster up 10 points :)

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:37 PM
Does that mean If I'm wrong I have to buy a case of Cheap ******* from you? It would be worth it to take that bet if that was the case :)

I think I am on record earlier saying he could coach up a QB and did a fine job with that but there were othe contributing factors to that and it helped for those QB's to have guys like your number 2, Chandler, our very own Crunked, Jacobson, Renfro, Smiter, Fentris, Cantu and more I am sure. Same with those lines he had. The 05 line still remains one of the biggest and best lines I have see and while you can coach an OLine those line had plenty of talent going for it too

now we get to a real attribute. hiring good asst coaches. i already talked about charlie, but you are so dead on when you discuss the ol. they were very good to great and they were well coached besides. i have said dozens of times that slc's big uglies made everything td did as an offensive guru possible.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:40 PM
now we get to a real attribute. hiring good asst coaches. i already talked about charlie, but you are so dead on when you discuss the ol. they were very good to great and they were well coached besides. i have said dozens of times that slc's big uglies made everything td did as an offensive guru possible.

Anybody have the "listed" heights and "weights" of the '05 line? That is the one that sticks out the most along with the '04 line but I dont think the '04 line was nearly as big and yes those things were awesome and alwasy well coached at that position and I don't mind saying that.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 06:41 PM
And Wasson was loaded in 07 and 09. 7 kids signed apiece. Thats plenty of talent to win, regardless of how you spin it.

So in order to win big in the playoffs you have to have several D1 receivers? Wasson has still had D1 QB's, OL, and more defensive talent than Dodge ever had.

If it takes several D1 WR's to win out of the spread, how in the world did Abilene and Cedar Hill win state titles in the past few years? Abilene had 1 D1 kid on the entire team. Maybe its great coaching......

07 is the only team IMO that Wasson has had that matches up with Dodge's teams in terms of talent, and they were on their way to the championship till Dodge got hurt. The last two season's Carroll's team has had no speed at the WR position.

2010 Carroll

LB Mitchell Osborne, Univ of Tulsa
K Cade Foster, Alabama
DE Jackson Richards, Texas Tech
DE Ben Perry, Minnesota
OT Mason Hathaway, Colorado State
RB Tommy Avers, Air Force
QB David Piland, Univ of Houston
CB Kacy Rodgers, U of Miami

S Justin Agnew, Drake Univ
DT Robbie Halliman, Lehigh Univ
WR Ryan Gentry, Colorado School of Mines
OL Drew Carnahan, Southwest Oklahoma State Univ
OL Kody Weaver, Amherst
OL Tony Barone, ClaremontIf this is Claremont Mud Scripps they don't give out scholarships for football. I'm pretty sure Amherst doesn't either.




3 players to BCS schools none on offense. No WR to a BCS school the last two seasons on Carroll's roster. How can a spread team win with little talent at the WR position? How can you compare these guys to Dodge's talent?

dragonsdaddy
09-08-2010, 06:42 PM
hmmm, i guess i didn't know dodge was so involved with 7th, 8th, 9th, and JV team QB's.

trust me, he knew the names and pertinents about every potential qb the first day on the job, and it never stopped. he's a qb savant. he actually used flash cards over the holidays so he could call players by name the first day of school in january. he would never have considered leaving the upcoming qbs to chance.

yankee
09-08-2010, 06:48 PM
Gotcha

Last time Dodge coached against Rice the Owls looked like a BCS conference team ;):D God I hope that doesn't happen this week. but not much to be encouraged about when you can hold the football for 41 mins and only muster up 10 points :)

clemson "only" scored 35 points, and the offense put up over 460 on an ACC defense. improvements all around i'd say.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 06:50 PM
Anybody have the "listed" heights and "weights" of the '05 line? That is the one that sticks out the most along with the '04 line but I dont think the '04 line was nearly as big and yes those things were awesome and alwasy well coached at that position and I don't mind saying that.

2005 Carroll talent. I'd love to see 08 and 09 Carroll next to this line up.

QB:McElroy(Bama)
HB:Newton(Texas)
WR:Renfro(TCU)
WR:Smiter(Rice)
WR:Jacobson(Byu)
WR:Fentriss(Rice)
ATH: Dodge(UNT)
LB:Benoist(SMU)
OL: Drescher(Colorado)
LB:Reese(Penn)
DB:Simpson(Navy)
LB:Tomlin(North Texas)
DL:Kyle Russo(North Texas)
OL:Prince(Missouri)

TigerHat
09-08-2010, 06:51 PM
So McElroy's brain is what allowed him to have the arm strength and pin-point accuracy he did in HS? McElroys brain is what allowed him to throw one of the best deep balls this state has ever seen on the HS level? McElroys brain is what allowed him to be 6'2 instead of 5'10? Ok.

So, will an NFL team draft or even consider a guy who is 5'9 to play tackle? How about a guy who is 5'8 to play TE? Or a guy who is 5'10 to play QB?

As for Will Thompson, he might have been small but lets bring up Jared Kaspar or Jamel Branch or Fuda or Dean or Mitchell or Donovan Young or some of those linemen and DB's you guys have had over the years.

Would the NBA consider a 5'4" player? If he was good enough they would.

My next door neighbor was a starting offensive guard for the Baltimore Colts during the Unitas era he was 5'7".

A 5'10" quarterback, you mean like Doug Flutie?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:52 PM
clemson "only" scored 35 points, and the offense put up over 460 on an ACC defense. improvements all around i'd say.

41 mins with the football and only 10 points to show? I guess that doesn't fall on coaching though does it, but hey, lets brag about that 460 yards of offense

yankee
09-08-2010, 06:53 PM
41 mins with the football and only 10 points to show? I guess that doesn't fall on coaching though does it, but hey, lets brag about that 460 yards of offense

that'll turn into points vs. sun belt opponents.

thestomp
09-08-2010, 06:53 PM
GA got in as a second place team at Auburey in year 1 but Dodge couldn't at Yoe. JoFlo and Erwin and Perry all got in as 2nd-3rd place teams at their respective schools and in JoFlo and Perrys case only 3 team got into the playoffs then too, just like Dodge had at NS and FRidge but yet he could still never make the playoffs there. Erwin got in as a 2nd place team in '07 going 9-3 in year 1 ar Marcus so your attempt at trying to downplay the comparision is full of fail.

Please, once again, explain to me why Dodge has been average every place he has been outside of Carroll? You keep saying because the kids couldnt adapt to his system. Hmm, imagine now if he had good talent at his disposal or an all-state QB and WR to work with what he might have done. Oh no.

I've tried to explain it, but you can't comprehend it. And while you at it explain the trend of talent, no talent, talent, no talent. How about that.

And your comparing Todd Dodge to GA Moore. GA Moore is the best hs football coach thats ever lived, name anyone that compares to him.

And I've never said that kids couldn't adapt to his system. I've said that he was at all stops for 2 years, got better each year, and didn't stay long enough for it to pay off. Hows that hard to understand. You don't move from the triple I, or veer, to the spread and run it like clock work your 1st year there. If you expect them too, the joke is on you. Why do they say give a coach 3-4 years for his system to take hold? I wonder.

How many years did it take Dodge to turn SLC into what they became under him? Can you tell me? He had 10 losses in his first two years. Was the talent no there. Did he have outstanding talent in 03? Do you think that these QB's have always been on SLC's campus? Do you think that Dodge had something to do with that?

And for the record, it just wasn't Dodge. He had a great staff in place. As does Trinity, Katy, and Abilene. Let on of those coaches leave, and take several members of the staff with them as Dodge did to UNT, and see if it takes a toll. SLC since has lost several coordinators to head coaching jobs, and each year it seems they get a little farther away from the Dodge years.

I'm just trying to figure out how 16 kids in 3 years aint good enough to win a state title, when Abilene had 1 last year. Cant figure that out.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:54 PM
Would the NBA consider a 5'4" player? If he was good enough they would.

My next door neighbor was a starting offensive guard for the Baltimore Colts during the Unitas era he was 5'7".

A 5'10" quarterback, you mean like Doug Flutie?

Please direct me to any QB currently in the NFL who is 5'10 or any OLinemen who is 5'7.

Doug Flutie is a great example though

thestomp
09-08-2010, 06:54 PM
41 mins with the football and only 10 points to show? I guess that doesn't fall on coaching though does it, but hey, lets brag about that 460 yards of offense

I guess Pete Carroll a horrible college coach because he don't have success at the pro level. Nick Saban too. :yes:

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 06:57 PM
that'll turn into points vs. sun belt opponents.

Don't be so sure about that. UNT has put up yards against plenty of teams before that never translated into points against "Sun Belt" defenses

BigFanSLC
09-08-2010, 07:01 PM
When i get to go back to SLC and coach SLC then SLC will get back on top.

I bet TD goes to SLC to take the AD job if he gets cut from UNT.

yankee
09-08-2010, 07:02 PM
Don't be so sure about that. UNT has put up yards against plenty of teams before that never translated into points against "Sun Belt" defenses

this is the year that will change.

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 07:03 PM
I've tried to explain it, but you can't comprehend it. And while you at it explain the trend of talent, no talent, talent, no talent. How about that.

And your comparing Todd Dodge to GA Moore. GA Moore is the best hs football coach thats ever lived, name anyone that compares to him.

And I've never said that kids couldn't adapt to his system. I've said that he was at all stops for 2 years, got better each year, and didn't stay long enough for it to pay off. Hows that hard to understand. You don't move from the triple I, or veer, to the spread and run it like clock work your 1st year there. If you expect them too, the joke is on you. Why do they say give a coach 3-4 years for his system to take hold? I wonder.

How many years did it take Dodge to turn SLC into what they became under him? Can you tell me? He had 10 losses in his first two years. Was the talent no there. Did he have outstanding talent in 03? Do you think that these QB's have always been on SLC's campus? Do you think that Dodge had something to do with that?

And for the record, it just wasn't Dodge. He had a great staff in place. As does Trinity, Katy, and Abilene. Let on of those coaches leave, and take several members of the staff with them as Dodge did to UNT, and see if it takes a toll. SLC since has lost several coordinators to head coaching jobs, and each year it seems they get a little farther away from the Dodge years.

I'm just trying to figure out how 16 kids in 3 years aint good enough to win a state title, when Abilene had 1 last year. Cant figure that out.

The sign of good coaches wiill adapt to what they have and scale it down so their teams can win. Sounds liek Dodge couldn't comprehend that at his other stops and it is why he never had a winning record or playoff birth.
There are a few coaches who are in GA's breath. Lineweaver and Wood to name a few, but thsoe are the great ones, right? So you are saying that Dodge isn't great. I agree.

Dodge was in the regional finals by year 1 and the semis in year 2 so it looks like he was able to do just fine from the start. Hmmm.

What does Abilene and Coach Warren have to do with this discussion? The point of this discussion is that Dodge benefitted from the talent he had at Carroll. MORE so than any othe rcoach in the history of this state has from one school.

Come again though, how many of those kids in the last 3 years have been skill players? Weren't two of them QB's? Isn't the reason Carroll fans say they never won state in '07 due to their QB? Haven't Carroll fans come on and blame the Padron injury in '08 for a factor in their season too?

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 07:06 PM
I guess Pete Carroll a horrible college coach because he don't have success at the pro level. Nick Saban too. :yes:

Pete Carroll made the playoffs as a NFL coach before going to USC, did it twice.

Nick Saban won a national title at LSU and Alabama while having success at Michigan State going 9-2 there in his last year and had a winning record in year 2 at Miami, more than Dodge can say at his previous stops outside of Carroll

Epic fail on your part

farmerfan
09-08-2010, 07:07 PM
this is the year that will change.

marking this now

yankee
09-08-2010, 07:13 PM
debatable on the first part. that one playoff season/win was an outlier. he compiled a 36-44 record at cleveland. i don't think too many people considered him a good head coach before coming to new england. as far as winning outside of new england...once again, a losing record with cleveland. hardly impressive.

my point is this. not all the success of the early 2000's can be attributed to coach dodge, but you can't take that away from him either. it was the right mix of talent and coaching. just like it has been for belichick.

...

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 07:19 PM
I'm just trying to figure out how 16 kids in 3 years aint good enough to win a state title, when Abilene had 1 last year. Cant figure that out.

I hate when people only count the guys that graduated as people on the team. The Sims are division 1 guys. That makes at least 3 division 1 players on last seasons team.

GoDragons
09-08-2010, 07:23 PM
I try to follow Texas HS football as closely as any Floridian can. However, my insight and knowledge into certain programs is obviously limited.

So, my big question, which is sure to garner many replies, is...

...How on earth does Southlake Carroll HS go from being SO SO dominant in the State of Texas...to...well...a rather mediocre team that could be considered to be on the down slide?

Please educate me! :notworthy

Not sure how we got to mediocre so quickly? We've only played two games so far ... I am not ready to make any conclusions about this year's team yet. The last time I checked the team's record the past few years has been great...we won district last year and went three rounds into the playoffs. To the best of my recollection we've only lost a hand full of games over the past few years. I guess if we don't win state every year then we're average at best?

I agree the team needs more experience...however, this team is loaded with talent and I expect to see them improve each week and make a playoff run. Who knows what will happen then. I also expect next year to be a stronger year because this group will have a lot more experience under their belt.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 08:03 PM
2005 Carroll talent. I'd love to see 08 and 09 Carroll next to this line up.

QB:McElroy(Bama)
HB:Newton(Texas)
WR:Renfro(TCU)
WR:Smiter(Rice)
WR:Jacobson(Byu)
WR:Fentriss(Rice)
ATH: Dodge(UNT)
LB:Benoist(SMU)
OL: Drescher(Colorado)
LB:Reese(Penn)
DB:Simpson(Navy)
LB:Tomlin(North Texas)
DL:Kyle Russo(North Texas)
OL:Prince(Missouri)

Compare what Wasson had in 07, 08 and 09 with Katy, Abilene and Trinity.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Compare what Wasson had in 07, 08 and 09 with Katy, Abilene and Trinity.

We're comparing Wasson's talent to Dodge's talent. If you wanna go ahead and compare Wasson's talent to those teams fine, but that's not what's being discussed.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 08:13 PM
I hate when people only count the guys that graduated as people on the team. The Sims are division 1 guys. That makes at least 3 division 1 players on last seasons team.

Yes, and if you apply that same theory to SLC they had about around 14 Div players in 07 and a few less in 08.

Look at the laundry list of talent that Wasson had in 08 that he parlayed into a 8-3 season.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 08:15 PM
I could have sworn Wasson didn't have those guys and you al lwould have won state with them had they played. At least with Riley. Are we now finally admitting no? Because Wasson did not have those guys at his disposal when the final snap of their respective seasons occurred

I stand corrected, if 1 or 2 of Wassons dozen or so Div 1 players doesnt play the last snap then there is no reason to expect success.
I remember every player from every year. But for those with limited abilities they can look here.


http://www.dallasnews.com/highschoolsports/southlake-carroll/

Click on "Roster" on tool bar halfway down page. Once you get the roster you can choose the year.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 08:17 PM
Yes, and if you apply that same theory to SLC they had about around 14 Div players in 07 and a few less in 08.

Look at the laundry list of talent that Wasson had in 08 that he parlayed into a 8-3 season.

So where was Wasson's skill position players on offense? Answer this question. What WR for Carroll in 08 or 09 could beat an athletic corner who manned him up? Cantu, Renfro, Chandler, Jacobson, Smiter and Fentriss all had that capability.

maxtor
09-08-2010, 08:24 PM
So where was Wasson's skill position players on offense? Answer this question. What WR for Carroll in 08 or 09 could beat an athletic corner who manned him up? Cantu, Renfro, Chandler, Jacobson, Smiter and Fentriss all had that capability.

Did Cantu, Renfro, Chandler, Jacobson, Smiter and Fentriss play for Katy, Trinity or Abilene over the last 3 years?
The point isnt that Wasson should be an equal to Dodge but to have done better than what he has done with the pile of talent that he had.

steeler 01
09-08-2010, 08:28 PM
Did Cantu, Renfro, Chandler, Jacobson, Smiter and Fentriss play for Katy, Trinity or Abilene over the last 3 years?

So you're not gonna answer the question. You're gonna bring up Katy, Trinity and whatever other team that has nothing to do with what's being discussed. :confused: