My problems with VY in the NFL

[jtk1519]

Let me preface this by saying, just so there is no confusion, Vince Young is quite possibly the best thing to happen to college football since the forward pass. He is on a pedestal of one residing high above what anyone else in the game has ever done.

That being said, I’m really worried about Vince in the NFL and my concerns have nothing to do with Vince. The NFL has earned the nickname “No Fun League” for a reason. The bottom line is that in its entire history, the NFL has NEVER seen a QB like Vince and I fear that they simply won’t know what to do with him. You can already see it. Vince doesn’t have the attitude of a typical QB. He doesn’t do things like a typical QB. He doesn’t throw the ball like a typical QB. He doesn’t even run like the mobile QBs in the league and the NFL has no clue what to do with Vince.

Everybody knows the story about when Vince started taking off at Texas. Before the Tech game in ‘04 Mack Brown sat down and asked Vince what he needed to do to get Vince to play like he did in high school. Vince told them to just “let me be me”. Mack and Greg Davis had to take the reigns off of Vince and just let the kid do what he does and the results speak for themselves.

Now, ask yourselves this… How many coaches in the NFL are going to do what Mack did? How many NFL coaches are going to put their massive egos aside and turn the reigns over to a very unorthodox QB and let the man play his game? To answer that question, you need to look no further than Atlanta where, despite several years in the league and freakish talent, the NFL still has no freakin’ clue how to use Michael Vick.

Just as with Vick, the NFL is going to use it’s same old antiquated QB template and try and shove Vince in the same freakin’ offense that 95% of the NFL teams run. Instead of building the offense around Vince like Mack and GD did, the NFL is going to try and shove a round peg into a square hole just like they are still trying to do with Vick.

Guys, my faith in belief in Vince and his abilities knows no end, but my faith in the NFL is non-existent. I think we are starting to see the tip of the iceberg. I’m happy for Vince and I wish him the very best. Nothing would make me happier than to look back on this post a couple of years from now and laugh at myself for being so stupid, but we are starting to see the first signs of a league that is confused. A league that recognizes and understands the unworldly talent that Vince wields, but has no idea what to do with it. One of two things is going to happen… One, the NFL is going to break Vince down to the point where he either fits into their unimaginative and tired mold or fails, or Vince the league is going to allow Vince to be Vince and put on a show the likes of which we have never seen. Oh how I’m praying for the latter.

[tailgater]

Excellent post. I totally agree.

[Slim-Rob]

agreed.

Vick has some plays designed for him, but there are not enough of them. They are just added into the old playbook.

[jtk1519]

agreed.

Vick has some plays designed for him, but there are not enough of them. They are just added into the old playbook.

Vick (like Vince) needs to be in an offense like Indy's where they spend a lot of time in the shotgun so the QB is better equipped to read the defense and react. They also need this kind of offense that gives them a multitude of options with a multitude of players. Indy will line up 5 wide one play and then 2 TE the next and then bring a FB the next play.

They are still trying to make Vick play in the West Coast offense. Sure, they have given him some designed QB draws and some roll outs, but there is only so much a mobile QB can do in the West Coast offense.

[KT2000]

I understand what you're getting at, JTK. I've got some of the same concerns for Vince.

Concerning Vick, Reeves was doing a good job with him and then Mora, Jr. comes along and tries to force him into being a pocket dweller. Mobile QBs like Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb and Vince could really thrive in Mike Shanahan's version of the West Coast in my opinion. That is the best pro style offense for a mobile QB.

A big part of Vick's problem is that he's 6'0, 200 pounds (a huge difference from Vince at 6'5, 235). Today, that's average size for a DB and pretty small for a RB or WR. His frame can't take a lot of solid contact. He needs to be in a system that will move him back from center occassionally so he can survey, and move the pocket so defenders can't zero in on a spot to go tee off on him. Last year, it looked like he was pretty much confined to 3, 5 and 7 step drops and when he took off it was up the middle of the defense...ouch.

I think Gary Kubiak (Given his Shanahan/Reeves coaching influence, Elway understudy) would be a great system coach for Vince to play under, but I know Houston probably won't draft him. A creative mind like Mike Martz could probably figure out a few things for him as well.

It'll definitely take someone willing to think outside of this so-called blueprint for an NFL QB. Vince is one of a kind, and I hope NFL fans get to see what I've been watching/following for seven years now. Given what I've witnessed in Vince's growth from a raw Madison High kid with huge upside into what we most recently saw in the Rose Bowl, I'm not about to put anything past him.

[jtk1519]

I think Vince winds up in Tennessee with the 3rd pick. I find comfort in that because Vince will learn under his mentor and fellow mobile QB in Steve McNair. Vince would also be playing for a coach that has coached (with great success) a mobile QB. Though, to be fair, McNair and Vince aren't even on the same planet when it comes to talent.

I am concerned with Tennessee's Norm Chow though. There is no denying that Chow is an outstanding coach with great credentials, but Chow made his mark in the college game with the same pro set offense that 95% of the NFL teams run... the same offense USC runs. That kind of offense is not acceptable for Vince. If Chow, or Fisher, try and force Vince into this offense, I think we will see the same restrained player we saw at Texas early in his career. I hope Chow proves me wrong.

[Drake]

JTK - Vince Young deserves the admiration you bestow upon him...

But, I don't think he'll be much of an NFL quarterback because I don't think he'll be able to pass as effectively as he did in college...

For one, he will not run as prolifically as he did in college... Most of the teams he faced had very little NFL starting talent on the defensive side of the ball... While he certainly is like no other scrambler except Michael Vick, he can still be contained using typical NFL schemes... Why? Because the defensive players in the NFL can all run and tackle... This and the fact that NFL teams won't allow their starting QB to constantly risk injury will prevent teams from having to build a primary defensive strategy around stopping his running...

Since they won't have to do that, Vince will see defensive coverages and players assigned to them like nothing he faced in college... I think his passing in college was enhanced by better pass protection, defensive schemes selling out to stop the run, and being on a team that was just superior to many of their opponents...

If it were up to me, I'd pass on Vince Young...

[jtk1519]

The argument that Vince can't succeed in the NFL because he will be playing up against better athletes is quickly nullified when you point out that Vince will be playing with better talent.

Sure, he will be going up against bigger, stronger and more talented defenses. However, you must consider that Vince will be playing behind bigger, stronger and more talented offensive lines, throwing to bigger, stronger and more talented WRs while handing off to bigger, stronger and more talented RBs (unless he is drafted by Houston of course). The talent level certainly rises from college to the pros, but it all rises evenly. It all evens out in the end.

Vince has been doubted since his middle school days and since then he has done nothing but prove the doubters wrong. Doubt at your own risk.

[Drake]

The argument that Vince can't succeed in the NFL because he will be playing up against better athletes is quickly nullified when you point out that Vince will be playing with better talent.

Sure, he will be going up against bigger, stronger and more talented defenses. However, you must consider that Vince will be playing behind bigger, stronger and more talented offensive lines, throwing to bigger, stronger and more talented WRs while handing off to bigger, stronger and more talented RBs (unless he is drafted by Houston of course). The talent level certainly rises from college to the pros, but it all rises evenly. It all evens out in the end.Well, that is true, but... He was playing on the BEST team in college, a team that was FAR superior to most of its opponents... The toughest defense (by far) he faced this year was Ohio State, and if my memory serves me, he looked quite bad for much of that game...

By the way, I hope I'm wrong...

[KT2000]

18-29, 270 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT (one on tip after it bounced out of UT rec. hands)

20 car, 76 yds

After he made them look stupid on the first drive with no one spying, they changed their typical defense and went to plan B (which no one else made them do) forcing them to spy him the entire game.

That's when he really went to work in the air, and threw a perfect pass to Limas Sweed for the winning TD. Vince played fine against OSU.

[Drake]

How many sacks and fumbles? (KT is a spinner lol)

[KT2000]

Do tell, what is spun about the post? All fact. BTW, one sack (2 yd loss) and no fumbles against OSU.

[KT2000]

His performance in that game is all the more impressive when you consider Selvin Young was running scared and Jamaal Charles was playing his first collegiate road game at one of the toughest venues in the country.

[Drake]

Actually, Vince looked confused and did fumble twice. He was also sacked 3 times... I call people that only reveal the information that makes their case "spinners" :D

Besides, except for getting the W when he had to, the STATS you did provide wasn't very convincing since they were only OKAY against the only real defense they played all year...

[Drake]

His performance in that game is all the more impressive when you consider Selvin Young was running scared and Jamaal Charles was playing his first collegiate road game at one of the toughest venues in the country.I agree... He got'er done, and that said alot about him...

[jtk1519]

The toughest defense (by far) he faced this year was Ohio State, and if my memory serves me, he looked quite bad for much of that game...

You memory has failed you. However, I'm confused by the contradictory nature of your posts. On one hand, we are being told to ignore Vince's collegiate exploits because they were done at the collegiate level and wont translate to the pro level. However, just minutes later, you point to Vince's performance in a college game as to the reason why he will fail. If we are to ignore the good that Vince did in college, do we not have to then ignore the bad? You can't pick and choose what you will use to represent Vince Young. You have to present the entire body of work or none at all.

[Drake]

You have to present the entire body of work or none at all.Why?

[jtk1519]

Why?

If you want to base your opinion of a player on just one game of his entire three year career (one game that was quite impressive and really sparked his Heisman campaign), go for it. Just do so with the knowledge that you are fooling yourself into a false sense of reality.

[Drake]

I hate these kind of discussions because I always sound negative... I hope Vince Young takes the NFL by storm, I really do... Been a Longhorn fan since the Steve Worster days... But I'm also trying to be objective... If I'm trying to determine how VY will fair against NFL defenses, I'm going to look at how he faired against the better defenses he faced in college... I'm not going to give kansas the same weight as Ohio State...

[KT2000]

You sound negative in every discussion, lol. You are the Simon Cowell of 5A Texas Football.com :) .

[Drake]

You sound negative in every discussion, lol. You are the Simon Cowell of 5A Texas Football.com :) ."KT, honestly, that's the most awful thing I've ever heard in my life"... :)

[DirtyHarry01]

I love the smell of "spin" in the morning, smells like......Baloney. This thread is unique in that now you're blaming the NFL for VINCE's failures, which haven't even occurred. As far as sounding "negative," pointing out facts is not being negative. And always citing stats proves.....nothing. Ryan Leaf had good stats and he is, where?

[ktchamp97]

jtk,

I share your concerns, and I honestly don't know if an NFL team will be willing to "let Vince be Vince." Hell, it took Mack Brown & staff 2.5 years to quit trying to parallel park their Ferrari and just enjoy the ride. The NFL has never seen a Vince Young, so it's expected that they won't know how to handle him...you can already see it. Just two months since he decimated defensive guru Pete Carroll's schemes, the NFL would have you believe that he has forgotten how to throw, read defenses, or tie his shoes. Suddenly, Jay Cutler is the model for aspiring NFL QB's and Vince may have better luck catching passes from him. It's ludicrous. They want to use Michael Vick to point to why teams should be hesitant to take Vince. Mike Vick wishes he was Vince Young.

All of the things being said about why Vince can't succeed at the next level are absolutely no different than what was being said about why he couldn't possibly succeed as a college QB. If he gets with a patient, forward-thinking organization, he will break the mold...just as he did in college. But that's a big "if".

I'm highly skeptical about how Vince will do in the league, because of the nature of the league and I can just see his career being completely mismanaged. Lest we forget that the overwhelming sentiment in Austin was to move him to WR not that long ago...not because of Vince, but because very few people knew what they actually had.

Those of us that have watched him grow from a raw, undisciplined curiosity as a sophomore at Madison to one of the greatest college football players in history know what he is capable of, and we just hope and pray that someone in the NFL will see it too.

[SVite]

Vick (like Vince) needs to be in an offense like Indy's where they spend a lot of time in the shotgun so the QB is better equipped to read the defense and react. They also need this kind of offense that gives them a multitude of options with a multitude of players. Indy will line up 5 wide one play and then 2 TE the next and then bring a FB the next play.

They are still trying to make Vick play in the West Coast offense. Sure, they have given him some designed QB draws and some roll outs, but there is only so much a mobile QB can do in the West Coast offense.

Steve Young did it, but he had the great Jerry Rice who spread the field,and was great going over the middle,and making short catches into long runs.Vick does`nt have any one (yet) that is close to Rice.Young also had TE`s like Brent Jones that was a wr converted into a TE.Also they always had great blocking FB`s,and great RB`s that could catch,and run.Atlanta has not given Vick the tools he needs to be a great west coast offense QB!

Vicks go to reciever is TE Crumpler who is an awsome TE,but if defenses smother him,Vick is in trouble.They do have a young reciever this year that started comming on at the end of the season,but at this moment i cant remember the rookies name.

Vince is more of a Randle Cunningham type,who was the top fantasy QB in the 90`s for many years.Randle had the tools to work with,but never went to the promise land!

[SVite]

I think Vince winds up in Tennessee with the 3rd pick. I find comfort in that because Vince will learn under his mentor and fellow mobile QB in Steve McNair. Vince would also be playing for a coach that has coached (with great success) a mobile QB. Though, to be fair, McNair and Vince aren't even on the same planet when it comes to talent.

I am concerned with Tennessee's Norm Chow though. There is no denying that Chow is an outstanding coach with great credentials, but Chow made his mark in the college game with the same pro set offense that 95% of the NFL teams run... the same offense USC runs. That kind of offense is not acceptable for Vince. If Chow, or Fisher, try and force Vince into this offense, I think we will see the same restrained player we saw at Texas early in his career. I hope Chow proves me wrong.

Mcnair is a good example of what can happen to a running QB in the NFL.A beat up body that hardly ever gets to practice in the week during the season.Air McNair was highly touted by many NFL teams.When Houston drafted him they had the run,and shoot offense,and McNair was a great fit.But, they changed their offense when Moon left.The Oilers had recievers at every position but the O line.Would have been awsome to see him run that offense for about 10+ years,and rewrite passing,and QB rushing records!

Who ever drafts Vince should look at the offense that he has already conquered at Texas,and go from there,but you better have some really good recievers for him,or he will get beat to a pulp!

[SVite]

The argument that Vince can't succeed in the NFL because he will be playing up against better athletes is quickly nullified when you point out that Vince will be playing with better talent.

Sure, he will be going up against bigger, stronger and more talented defenses. However, you must consider that Vince will be playing behind bigger, stronger and more talented offensive lines, throwing to bigger, stronger and more talented WRs while handing off to bigger, stronger and more talented RBs (unless he is drafted by Houston of course). The talent level certainly rises from college to the pros, but it all rises evenly. It all evens out in the end.

Vince has been doubted since his middle school days and since then he has done nothing but prove the doubters wrong. Doubt at your own risk.

USC , & Ohio State was the closest to the NFL talent level that he faced last year.You can look at the talent level seperation on Vinces offenses vs the talent on those 2 power houses defenses.And if Vince can be put on an NFL team with the same type of player talent seperation then he should be close to the level he played at,at Texas.

But if Vince is put into a system where his team mates talent level is below what it was with the Texas + talent level vs the nfl defenses,then i think he will struggle.Texas had superior players at every position on offense ,that will be hard for him to be put on a team that is drafting in the first 5 picks,to have that kind of player talent seperation,at least for a few years.

USC had some really good defensive talent,and did`nt have a clue on how to stop Vince.The NFL will find ways to stop,or slow any one down.Kinda like what the MLB teams do to hitters,it`s called the book on a player.

[jtk1519]

This thread is unique in that now you're blaming the NFL for VINCE's failures, which haven't even occurred.

Who is blaming the NFL and how can you possibly blame the NFL for something that hasn't happened yet? You make no sense. I said I had concerns about the NFL and how Vince would be used. There is a considerable difference.

[AZTiger]

Yall make some good points, however, I can see it already.

If Vince struggles in the NFL yall will be screaming "It's not his fault it's the coaches."

He'll never be held accountable for his struggles in your eyes.

[KT2000]

You know where I stand as far as Vincent Young goes, but if he ends up stinking it up in the NFL I won't be making excuses as to why or why not. The proof will be in the results as it always is. Where you go obviously has a huge effect on a career overall, but I think Vince (like anyone else) will ultimately be in charge of the type of player he becomes in the NFL.

Just because some us think he has the potential to change the game doesn't mean we can't take a step back and look at things rationally as well. I don't get why people on the other side of the fence think they're the only ones who can step back and look at things with an open mind.

[Drake]

Steve McNair, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, even Donovan McNabb are all examples of NFL QBs that had great mobility and ran well in college and early in their NFL careers. However, in the end they all stopped running and were able to pass efficiently and effectively... My question about VY is, is he strong enough passer to be effective in the pocket when their are 11 NFL players on the other side of the ball... My guess is no... Hope I'm wrong...

[jtk1519]

Steve McNair, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, even Donovan McNabb are all examples of NFL QBs that had great mobility and ran well in college and early in their NFL careers. However, in the end they all stopped running and were able to pass efficiently and effectively... My question about VY is, is he strong enough passer to be effective in the pocket when their are 11 NFL players on the other side of the ball... My guess is no... Hope I'm wrong...

Those same questions were asked of those other QBs early in their careers and strong doubts were raised for all of those guys, but you see how they did. Guys like that and I'm sure Vince too, try and get by on just their athletic ability alone. It takes a couple of years for a QB to get fully immersed and understand the NFL game. When they reach that level of maturity, they learn to let the game come to them and they learn how to better manage a game. McNair, Young, Cunningham, McNabb, etc. were all able to do that. I see no reason why Vince won't either.

However, it is worth mentioning that the NFL has never had a 6'5 235 pound QB with 4.4 speed who can break off a 60 yard run or throw a 60 yard bomb. There has never in the NFL's history been a QB with the pure, God given athletic talent that Vince Young has. The comparisons to McNair and McNabb exist simply because there is nobody else to compare Vince to despite the fact that Vince is on a completely different talent level from those guys. It's really hard to look at a McNair or McNabb and use them to predict how Vince will do in the NFL.

[KT2000]

Strake Drake...That's a legit question for VY and any other QB that steps into the league. I've seen a lot of can't miss, classic dropback QBs fall flat on their face. So, I raise an eyebrow or two when people talk about Leinart and Cutler as if they are sure things. "There is no such thing..."

Comparisons are fun to talk about, but ultimately worthless when you talk about Young/Vick-McNabb-Cunningham. However, I'm sure Vick would love to have Vince's body frame. He could definitely use a 5 inch, 35 pound boost.

[DirtyHarry01]

I think, 2000, that you gloss over VINCE's liabilities and focus on his abilities. Sure, he's an athlete and all that, but he isn't perfect, as you seem to believe. All this is speculation, and not necessarily fun to discuss if the discussers don't admit the other side has a valid point.

[ktchamp97]

Yall make some good points, however, I can see it already.

If Vince struggles in the NFL yall will be screaming "It's not his fault it's the coaches."

He'll never be held accountable for his struggles in your eyes.

Hey AZ, I know where you're coming from too. However, I am more than willing to point out when Vince struggles...like in this year's A&M game. We're talking about what may happen in the NFL, where they will be much less likely to change their scheme to accomodate Vince's rare talents. What is more likely, is that they will try to fit him into the mold, and Vince will struggle to be an "NFL QB", but I think he'll be able to evolve and be successful, as long as they are patient with him. On the other hand, if teams are willing to change things up a bit to fully embrace the breadth of his talents, then we will all be able to watch him truly shine and be worthy of a Top 10 draft pick. If teams do attempt to change things up for Vince and he fails...well, then he fails and it will be all on him. I'm saying, based on what I've seen of him, that I am convinced that will not happen.

[KT2000]

I think, 2000, that you gloss over VINCE's liabilities and focus on his abilities. Sure, he's an athlete and all that, but he isn't perfect, as you seem to believe. All this is speculation, and not necessarily fun to discuss if the discussers don't admit the other side has a valid point.

If you can find where I've said he's perfect, let me know. Not many of the liabilities I've seen listed for VY in the various threads really apply in my opinion. I've been following his progress for seven years now, so I believe I have a very good understanding of what his abilities are.

Like any other pro QB prospect he'll need to adjust to the business nature of the NFL, the level of defense played, elevate his own game accordingly, learn new systems, etc., etc.

The main point I'm trying it make is that he has the potential to be a league changing QB. I just think he has that kind of upside. I've seen QBs like Leinart and Cutler before. That's not necessarily a bad thing but when you have a chance to take someone like Vince Young who could potentially break the standard pro style QB mold, you take it.

[Drake]

The main point I'm trying it make is that he has the potential to be a league changing QB. I just think he has that kind of upside. I've seen QBs like Leinart and Cutler before. That's not necessarily a bad thing but when you have a chance to take someone like Vince Young who could potentially break the standard pro style QB mold, you take it.How will it change the league? How many Vince Young's have come along in your lifetime? Why would any team BREAK the "standard pro style mode" when year in and year out it is teams with these types of QBs that have the most success? Even if breaking the mold and creating a system designed to exploit Vince Young's abilities was considered, how could any team follow through with such an idea knowing that Vince himself could be felled by one good NFL hit and there would be NO ONE else that could run such a system. Can anyone but the team that has VY really change? Even if he’s highly successful the mold won't be broken, VY will just be an anomaly...

[KT2000]

The mold would be broken because the current perception is that quarterbacks like Vince Young or Michael Vick with far superior running skills can't succeed in that style at the NFL level.

How many Michael Jordans have you seen? How many Muhammad Alis have you seen? How many Tiger Woods? They're all anomalies who've managed to change the face of their sports forever.

[Drake]

The mold will be broken because the current perception is that quarterbacks like Vince Young or Michael Vick with far superior running skills can't succeed in that style at the NFL level.

How many Michael Jordans have you seen? How many Muhammad Alis have you seen? How many Tiger Woods? They're all anomalies who've managed to change the face of their sports forever.This is eerie because I thought about the exact athletes you mention plus Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Shaqille Oneal and Wayne Gretzky when I was writing the previous post... You can't say "let's build a team in the mold of the Chicago Bulls of the 90's"... Why? Because you can't go out and get a Michael Jordan... Has there ever been a fighter like Muhammed Ali before or since? I don't think there has... Were the L.A. Lakers as successful when they inserted Vladi Divac in the vacancy left by Shaqille Oneal? No.

Vince can certainly make the NFL more fun, and his team will certainly be exciting... But will he change the way the game is played? No way... Just not going to ever be enough Vince Youngs around to make it happen...

[KT2000]

Hmm, I think your following me and then the last sentence. The athletes you and I listed all changed the way their sports were played in my opinion.

You're not making sense there.

Also, something I wanted to bring out about your other reply, how is the injury threat/scheme risk to a player like VY any different from that of another player?

All it takes one hit for anyone, and their career could be over. There is no safe spot on a football field. Not even kicker, Martin Grammatica (God bless him) proved that by tearing his ACL while celebrating a made field goal.

Any team would be up crap creek without a paddle if their stud player went down, so your argument there doesn't hold either. No one can run the Colts offense like Peyton Manning, but they take their chances anyway and hope like hell Sorgi never has to start a meaningful game.

[Drake]

Hmm, I think your following me and then the last sentence. The athletes you and I listed all changed the way their sports were played in my opinion. You're not making sense there.Well, they all played at a different level, and their play was a change, but how many others that followed maintained that level? Thats what I mean by not changing the way the games been played... In context, ASSUMING Vince Young can maintain his level of dominance in the NFL, how will it in any way make the next 20 quarterbacks signed in the years to come play like Vince does? It won't because the Vince Young QBs of the world are few and far between because their God-given ability is RARE, not because of close-mindedness or bias against their duel purposeness...
Also, something I wanted to bring out about your other reply, how is the injury threat/scheme risk to a player like VY any different from that of another player?Wouldn't you agree that for an NFL team to take full advantage of VY's abilities they would need to design an offense where him running is a big part of the strategy? My question would be, if thats the case, aren't you REALLY vulnerable if he goes down since there might only be one other player on earth, much less on your team, that could step in and fill his shoes in such a scheme...
All it takes one hit for anyone, and their career could be over. There is no safe spot on a football field. Not even kicker, Martin Grammatica (God bless him) proved that by tearing his ACL while celebrating a made field goal.

Any team would be up crap creek without a paddle if their stud player went down, so your argument there doesn't hold either. No one can run the Colts offense like Peyton Manning, but they take their chances anyway and hope like hell Sorgi never has to start a meaningful game.Agreed. But you have a better chance of finding a fill-in for Peyton running a pro-style offense than you do of finding a replacement for VY in an offense built around him taking off and running...

It's obvious you and I see this differently... I think barring injury, you could build an offense around VY's running ability with some success, but even if you did, he'd be reduced to primarily passing in 5 years anyway... My question is, is it worth it to spend all that money, change a system, and have to change it back a few years down the road anyway, ALL in the hopes that you can place an entire franchise on one guy's legs, he can stay healthy, and he'll be able to take you to the promise land? It worked for Texas, the debate is, can it work in the NFL?

You and I disagree, but neither of us is wrong, and if someone is proven wrong I hope it's me... But this isn't a Wonderlic test, NO ONE knows these answers yet...

[ktchamp97]

StrakeDrake,

Excellent post.

I may not always agree with your conclusions, but you always do a good job arguing your position.

You do a fine job playing 'Devil's Advocate'. I think your last post pretty accurately and completely covers the concerns that NFL GM's have about Vince at the next level.

[KT2000]

StrakeDrake,

I really don't think it'll take anything as drastic as you're hinting at as far as scheme goes.

The essential things an offense must do to take advantage of Vince from a scheme point of view are:

- Spread the field (unpack the defense, widen the lanes...many of Vince's longer runs came on pass calls. That forces LBs to drop coverage responsibilities because they have to be there to make the tackle in case Vince pulls it down, and that opens up a new bag of tricks for an offense when LBs can't automatically drop back in coverage in pass situations)
- Have Vince in the Gun at least 50% of all snaps (help with his pre-snap field survey, limit drop steps so he can focus on making quick decisions which he excels at...you usually have three or four seconds to get rid of a football)
- Moving Pocket (rollouts, half rolls, bootlegs...don't let the defense get comfortable reading one spot)
- Quick, rythmic pass calls

I think the offense Mike Shanahan runs in Denver (formerly aided by now Texans coach Gary Kubiak) would be perfect for Vince if they just added a shotgun element to it and a few designed QB runs.

You are right in that none of us is right or wrong at this point.

This much I do know though...

Vincent Young is the only football player I've ever seen (at any level) make 3rd or 4th and 30 look easy.

[Firebird]

There is another liability that isn't being talked about, and that is injuries. Now,we are all certainly aware that VY is a stout guy, but he isn't bulletproof, regardless of some Longhorn's feelings:D Even if some team does allow Vince to be Vince, he is still going to be taking licks like he didn't feel in college, he's going to be taking them over a longer season, and he's going to be taking them year after year.

There is a good reason why NFL teams encourage qb's to slide, and why, despite how amazingly athletic he is, Falcon's coaches hold their collective breaths everytime Vick takes off. Now, I don't consider VY to be quite as fragile as Vick has been, BUT... it can still happen. And, you also have to consider the strong possibility that he is going to a crummy team with a weak O-Line.

One of the main reasons McNair, Cunningham and McNabb changed their style was because they just didn't want to risk the injuries anymore. Runners in the NFL get really banged up, and a QB isn't like an RB. You can't sit him out for a few series so he doesn't get pounded, most teams only have 1 QB that can really get the job done. I've said it before and I will say it again, I belive VY is worth a top 3 draft pick. You just can't afford to pass him up. But, if I were a GM, I would have to be concerned about my investment on the sidelines in street clothes.

[KT2000]

Firebird, we actually have touched on that.

One play can end a season or career of a player at any position regarldess of playing style, even kickers as I pointed out with the Grammatica FG celebration/resulting ACL tear.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a moving target at QB rather than a sitting duck.

[Firebird]

I would definetly rather have a mobile target, but the question is, does a propensity to run more often open you up to more hits, and to more serious ones. It seems from the experience of other scrambling QBs, that the answer is yes.

[KT2000]

And there is a good reason most NFL QBs are taught to slide. Not all are 6'5, 235 pounds and even fewer have 4.4 speed and can make people miss.

Who hops in a Ferrari to parallel park? ;)

[Firebird]

But even VY can't make them miss EVERY time. And in the NFL, he is going to be taking on linebackers as big as him, or bigger, while in college they were smaller. Ben Roethlsiberger is bigger than VY, but they don't tell him to go head to head with defenders.

Like I said, I am not a hyper VY critic, I think he should go top 3, and that the league has never seen his kind of talent before.. But the fact remains, that every single scrambling QB has either had to change his game, or have his career seriously shortened and/or miss a lot of playing time because of injuries. If I am a GM, I am thinking, "How do I use this guy's God-given talent without tearing him to pieces. And, if an injury does hamper his scrambling ability, will it all be a complete loss."

[KT2000]

I guess what I'm not seeing is what makes Vince that much more of a risk than a more classic dropback QBs like Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler. Guys like that take a lot of vicious hits due to their inability to escape pressure. With defensive speed on the increase by the year, escapability is desperately needed by NFL QBs. Superior running ability may get you into some bad hits, but it can definitely bail you out as well.

Given the improvement Vince has made in the passing game over his four years at Texas, I believe he can get it done without being able to run for big yards. 30-40 accuracy in the championship game and he finished as the #1 most efficient QB in the country. Hardly anyone is citing that and/or ignoring it.

[Firebird]

Actually, I believe his "throwing motion" is almost as irrelevant as his Wonderlic score. The guy gets the ball where it needs to be, and I don't see that changing in the NFL.

[Firebird]

My main thing is this: There appear to be only 2 points of view on Vince--

A. He has too many questions to merit a top pick. He is will not succeed, and he is possiby dumb, and those who don't see that are dumb.

B. He is the most sure fire prospect ever. Those who deny that do so out of stupidity and/ or maliciousness. If he fails it will not be his fault, he can do no wrong.

I think the truth is more complicated. To ignore and denigrate his monumental accomplishments and ability is no more ignorant than to ignore some of the real questions that have arisen around him.

[jtk1519]

He is will not succeed, and he is possiby dumb, and those who don't see that are dumb.

You type something as incoherent as, "He is will not succeed" and then have the audacity to call somebody else dumb in the same sentence. Irony, thou hath been exposed.

[DirtyHarry01]

VINCE will lead the NFL in both passing and rushing next season, and have a QB rating of 140.0. He will lead whichever team selects him to the Superbowl and will be named MVP after the come-from-behind victory. Terry Bradshaw will annoint him as the best QB ever. VINCE will then receive a doctorate from Cal-Tech in Plasma Physics, after writing a paper on Quantum Mechanics. I will stick my hand in my pocket to retrieve my car keys, and Mack Brown's hand will already be there.

[Firebird]

You type something as incoherent as, "He is will not succeed" and then have the audacity to call somebody else dumb in the same sentence. Irony, thou hath been exposed.

JTK, you didn't really read the post. Sorry for the typo, but I was trying to express the two points of view that people seem to have on VY

A. He has too many questions to merit a top pick. He will not succeed, he is possibly dumb, and anyone who doesn't understand that is dumb.

OR

B. He is the most surefire prospect the draft has ever seen, he will change the game, and if he does fail, it will be the fault of the system.

AS I SAID IN MY FREAKING POST I do not subscribe to either of those theories, I think the truth lies somwhere in between. VY certainly should go very high in the draft, but I can understand why some GMs and talent scouts have some concerns to address. There is no such thing as a sure draft prospect. Never once have I actually called VY dumb, in fact I have even called into question the validity of the Wonderlic scores. Please read the last line of the post you quoted out of context:

"To deinigrate his monumental accomplishments and abilities is no more ignorant than to ignore some of the real questions that have arisen around him".

[KT2000]

I don't fall into the A or B category you labeled Firebird.

I don't think Vince is a complete football player yet by any means. He definitely has room for improvement. I believe a lot of what he has to work on is very correctable. His throwing motion is irrelevant as long as the ball goes where it is supposed to.

NFL coaches interviewed on the subject have said exactly that. Footwork is the main thing he needs to work on in my opinion, and he can go to the next level as a passer when he takes care of that. He'll be asked to do more under center in the NFL, so he'll need to get his steps fine tuned. Even the classic pocket QBs have to do that when they get to the NFL because the game is so much quicker. Vince could also do a better job of stepping into throws.

One thing that will help him with all of this is the speed with which he sees the game. He can definitely play at the right speed (in both the running and passing game) for the NFL, and that's something many young QBs have trouble with initially (just ask Eli Manning).

Again, VY's not infallible by any means. No one is.

I just don't buy the TV criticisms of Young. Again, I've been following Vince Young's progress since his sophomore season at Madison so I feel like I can comment very accurately on him as a player.

[Firebird]

TV criticisms are set up to get people to tune in. The fact is, most ESPN viewers do not want to hear guys actually talk about x's and o's, or a real coache's perspective, they want to hear sports columnists shout at each other and take extreme stands. I watch ESPN soley for entertainment purposes, not to get any real info or analysis. The only thing they consistenly do well is report scores.

[KT2000]

The NFL Network (if you have Direct TV, not sure if you get it on other providers) is really good for analysis. It was good to watch the combine on that channel with coaches giving their insight.

That brings me to a random thought for the day....I wish I was Mario Williams.

[DirtyHarry01]

2-grand, you don't accept any negative comments about VINCE, which is why I've put nothing but positive spin on everything about him. He was just nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, and his footwork is so good, he's entered into next season's "Dancing With the Stars."

[Firebird]

I like the NFL network a lot, but my biggest complaint is the lack of a good channel for in depth college football coverage. Pretty much, you have to dig around the net and glean the good stuff from the bad.

[Panther63]

One thing Vince Young does well is win football games,and thats what every NFL hc loves.I can't wait to see him in a Texan uniform.I can only imagine how ut wuold have come out against usc without him.

[HUM398]

Like many people on this post have already stated, Vince young is a very unique talent. One of the most amazing QB's i have ever seen. There is no doubt in my mind that Vince Young will succeed in the NFL if, like JTK said, they let Vince be Vince. I dont care what test he takes and what his score is. Vince knows Football. Now that being said, if he doesnt succeed it wont be because of Vince Young. The NFL will have to take complete and total blame for dismantling and crushing a collegic Legend and potential NFL legend. its true the NFL likes to do everything pretty conservative, from Draft picks to play calling. alot of playing it safe in the NFL. That simply isnt Vinces game

And to adress somthing else. Anyone that disputes Vince Youngs Greatness. Then i would take it that you havent watched Young Grow. He was amazing in the toughest state to play High school football. He straight up just made people look dumb in college. Not tell me this, do you really think he is done...............

[Drake]

I agree, VY has been a GREAT player and GREAT QB at every level so far... I've already stated as best I could why I think its not a lock that he'll continue to excel in the NFL... I've also said I hope I'm wrong...

I would point out to you that there have been hundreds of college standouts, including Heisman Trophy winners, top draft picks, and can't miss prospects that not only didn't stand out in the NFL, ended up being major disappointments... Point is, the NFL is just totally different for any number of reasons... You can give your opinion about it as strong as you'd like, but really, only time will tell what kind of impact Vince Young will have at the next level...

[SVite]

I wonder if Terry Bradshaw would have passed deerlick test?He prolly would have missed the question on how to spell superbowl ring!:D