Future of the GOP

[the_phoenix612]

As much as I know you ODRBs hate facts and statistics, this is a pretty compelling analysis of the future of the GOP extrapolating current demographic trends.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/voter_demographics.pdf

tl;dr: country is getting less white and more educated, growing the constituencies that currently dominate the Democratic party and forcing the GOP to the center or to regionalization.

[rwilleby]

As much as I know you ODRBs hate facts and statistics, this is a pretty compelling analysis of the future of the GOP extrapolating current demographic trends.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/voter_demographics.pdf

tl;dr: country is getting less white and more educated, growing the constituencies that currently dominate the Democratic party and forcing the GOP to the center or to regionalization.

It doesn't matter if we're less white... More educated means folks will start to wise up, get off of the teat and move to the conservative right... He, he...

[The King]

As much as I know you ODRBs hate facts and statistics, this is a pretty compelling analysis of the future of the GOP extrapolating current demographic trends.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/voter_demographics.pdf

tl;dr: country is getting less white and more educated, growing the constituencies that currently dominate the Democratic party and forcing the GOP to the center or to regionalization.

More eduacated doesn not mean that the person is properly or adequatly eduacted.

Some of the dumbest people I know are college proffessors, and we would all be ignorant to think what they are teaching is valid or relevent to getting a job, and providing for oneself.

Some of the smartest people I know barely made it out of high school.

You cannot teach wisdom.

[the_phoenix612]

Demographically, it is a fact that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to be a Republican. This is not a point up for debate. More educated does not NECESSARILY mean smarter, if that makes you feel less inadequate.

[the_phoenix612]

More eduacated doesn not mean that theperson is properly or adequatly eduacted.

Some of the dumbest people I know are college proffessors, and we would all be ignorant to think what they are teaching is valid or relevent to getting a job, and providing for oneself.

Some of the smartest people I know barely made it out of high school.

You cannot teach wisdom.
lol

[RedRage00]

It doesn't matter if we're less white... More educated means folks will start to wise up, get off of the teat and move to the conservative right... He, he...

..then they get irritated with that and move back to the left......never ending cycle. :D

[shslb15]

Demographically, it is a fact that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to be a Republican. This is not a point up for debate. More educated does not NECESSARILY mean smarter, if that makes you feel less inadequate.

I really have nothing to say to this... How is this not up for debate? What information proves that more educated people are democrats? You telling me that someone with a MBA is going to go vote to hurt his business? I really didn't want to name call, that'd make me just as bad as a liberal, but you're an idiot. I'm sorry....

[rwilleby]

Demographically, it is a fact that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to be a Republican. This is not a point up for debate. More educated does not NECESSARILY mean smarter, if that makes you feel less inadequate.

Oh wait... I meant to say that the OLDER and WISER a person gets, the more likely they'll become more conservative... :)

[shslb15]

Oh wait... I meant to say that the OLDER and WISER a person gets, the more likely they'll become more conservative... :)

When they are actually a product part of society, and would rather not have to give all their money to the morons in Washington...

[the_phoenix612]

I really have nothing to say to this... How is this not up for debate? What information proves that more educated people are democrats? You telling me that someone with a MBA is going to go vote to hurt his business? I really didn't want to name call, that'd make me just as bad as a liberal, but you're an idiot. I'm sorry....
In the 2008 election, white college graduates made as much as a 17 percentage point swing toward Obama.

From the paper, which you clearly didn't read:
White college graduates’ shift to Obama played a key role in his victories in many important states. For instance, in Pennsylvania college-educated whites swung Obama’s way by 17 points, turning a 12-point deficit in 2004 into a 5-point advantage in 2008. And they increased their share of voters over the two elections by 13 points.

Obama turned Kerry’s 2-point deficit among white college graduates in Colorado into a 14-point advantage. Colorado’s white college graduates also increased their share of voters by 4 points over the two elections. In Ohio, Obama lost white college graduates by only a single percentage point, but that’s 15 points better than Kerry did, losing this group by 16 points in 2004. Similarly, Obama lost Michigan’s white college graduates by a point, which is 16 points better than Kerry’s 17-point loss among the group in 2004.

More broadly, there are 18 states plus the District of Columbia—adding up to 248 electoral votes—which Obama, Kerry, and Dukakis won, and which Bill Clinton also won twice. In every one of these states save two (Michigan and, oddly enough, Illinois), Obama carried white college graduates. Moreover, his margins were quite spectacular in a number of these states. He carried white college graduates by 11 points in California, 10 points in Delaware, 30 points in Hawaii, 24 points in Maine, 26 points in Massachusetts, 13 points in Minnesota, 18 points in New Hampshire, 15 points in New York, 28 points in Oregon, 49 points in Vermont, 26 points in Washington, and 12 points in Wisconsin
...
the factors propelling these voters toward the Democrats are well
known. They are far less conservative than white working-class voters on social issues,24 less likely to be reflexively antigovernment,25 and have a strong interest in effective public services like transportation and education. These views have led to disenchantment with the GOP and increased warmth toward the Democrats.

[shslb15]

In the 2008 election, white college graduates made as much as a 17 percentage point swing toward Obama.

From the paper, which you clearly didn't read:

So college grads in liberal states voted liberal... nothing new here...

[DragonWatcher]

More eduacated doesn not mean that the person is properly or adequatly eduacted.

Some of the dumbest people I know are college proffessors, and we would all be ignorant to think what they are teaching is valid or relevent to getting a job, and providing for oneself.

Some of the smartest people I know barely made it out of high school.

You cannot teach wisdom.

You need to quit hanging out around the Tech Campus

[the_phoenix612]

So college grads in liberal states voted liberal... nothing new here...
college grads all over the country voted Obama. The outlier is, and has been for awhile, the South. Hence, the GOP is moving toward regionalization.

Old, white, south.

[the_phoenix612]

You need to quit hanging out around the Tech Campus
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj160/VitaminKitten/Gifs/House-ohsnap.gif

[TulsaHale74]

Demographically, it is a fact that the more educated a person, the less likely they are to be a Republican. This is not a point up for debate. More educated does not NECESSARILY mean smarter, if that makes you feel less inadequate.
I agree with you on your first sentence. People get their second and third sheepskin and become elitist very easily. These people get out of touch with the common man.

But as for the second sentence:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Everything is up for debate. That's why you're wasting your time in The Yard like the rest of us.

[Dawg Fan]

This thread is nothing but bait. Not biting

[15Adragon]

I think these last 19 months might alter your projections. Hope and change that we can now feel.

[RedRage00]

This thread is nothing but bait. Not biting

LOL! You're always posting threads that bait.

I actually skimmed through that novel. It has some interesting things in there, but I didn't read every little detail. It's too long and I don't have the time right now.

[Dawg Fan]

LOL! You're always posting threads that bait.

I actually skimmed through that novel. It has some interesting things in there, but I didn't read every little detail. It's too long and I don't have the time right now.


very true;) I like fishing better than biting although I have done my share

[GoOwls]

This thread is nothing but bait. Not biting

And fenix is a master baiter.....I'm not biting either....:D :rofl: :rolleyes:

[ktCarl]

And fenix is a master baiter.....I'm not biting either....:D :rofl: :rolleyes:


Vi = strength, force, power, might, violence

verborum = cheat/deceive someone

omnia = in all respects

superabo = overcome, conquer, survive, be above, have the upper hand


I would bet that Feenix is a God fearing Republican incognito on this forum. :rofl:

[RedRage00]

And fenix is a master baiter.....I'm not biting either....:D :rofl: :rolleyes:

Ok, FailOwls!

[Mong Hu]

As much as I know you ODRBs hate facts and statistics, this is a pretty compelling analysis of the future of the GOP extrapolating current demographic trends.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/voter_demographics.pdf

tl;dr: country is getting less white and more educated, growing the constituencies that currently dominate the Democratic party and forcing the GOP to the center or to regionalization.
For about the past six months the future of the GOP has certainly looked brighter than the future of the Democrats. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html
On another note the good news for you fenix is that people tend to get more conservative the older the get and the farther away they get from their college experience.

[RedRage00]

Why do people act like one side is better than the other?

They're both pretty screwed up if you ask me.

[shslb15]

Why do people act like one side is better than the other?

They're both pretty screwed up if you ask me.

Democrats are socialists and the Republicans are liberal.... there ya go... ;)

[slcdragonfan]

Why do people act like one side is better than the other?

They're both pretty screwed up if you ask me.

RR, you are not allowed to view things objectively, that only means that you have no core set of values. :rolleyes:
You can see hypocrisy, but talking about it will get you scorched. Look at what happens to FF when he points it out in football? Same thing in the yard.

People treat politics like football or any other sport. Take a side and yell for your team. Deride the other team as much as possible.

[HUM398]

RR, you are not allowed to view things objectively, that only means that you have no core set of values. :rolleyes:
You can see hypocrisy, but talking about it will get you scorched. Look at what happens to FF when he points it out in football? Same thing in the yard.

People treat politics like football or any other sport. Take a side and yell for your team. Deride the other team as much as possible.

Their are no sides in politics...that is the point.

The establishment has set up a "two" party system to divide the country...and while one side claims to be Left and the other right...both are exhibiting Leftist tendencies.

You confuse Republicans for Conservatives, and Liberals for Democrats. They are not synonymous with each other. The need for both perspectives is essential in moving forward, not for one party to garner more power then the other...but for the sake of balancing out the extremes of both ends. I do not wish to see a country dominated by a Conservative way of thinking, because perspective only allows an individual to see so far. The Democratic party has been a party of a more centralized form of Government for the purpose of better conditions for the people... The Republican Party has been the party of ensuring the liberties and stopping the destructive growth of Government. The need for both are evident and needed for the furtherance of The American Destiny...That Destiny being a light to a world of desolation and tyranny, to show the world that Freedom and peace can be attained by self governance and faith.

By allowing the division, we are allowing those that wish to transform our nation to a soft tyrannical mecca to win. I think we can all agree that both the Republican and Democratic party as they currently stand have had a solid go at it.

i despise the Progressive movement for what it has become, and what it is being cleverly used as. Progress to what? We have an assault on our liberties....and we are to busy worrying what team we want to win? sad. The Tea Party movement transcends the political party division. And Americans will realize that this is a lot bigger then their "team"....and when those Americans wake up, we will finally be able to stand together against the establishment that has run us into the ground....and threatens our futures.

I can't stand those that won't voice their true feelings, and rather remain lukewarm. It hinders understanding, and blocks truth....as well as being dishonest. No Human is objective in their thinking, such modes of thinking would not allow for self-preservation and may indicate a weak set of personal morals..


The truth of the matter is this...The Liberal Movement (progessive) has infected and destroyed both our parties...A Democrat and Republican used to believe in the same things, but just had different means of achieving the goals. It saddens me that we have gotten to this point that we can no longer agree on key issues without bringing up discrepancies in our parties tenets. We are Americans, and i refuse to be defined by a party.

[slcdragonfan]

Their are no sides in politics...that is the point.

The establishment has set up a "two" party system to divide the country...and while one side claims to be Left and the other right...both are exhibiting Leftist tendencies.

You confuse Republicans for Conservatives, and Liberals for Democrats. They are not synonymous with each other. The need for both perspectives is essential in moving forward, not for one party to garner more power then the other...but for the sake of balancing out the extremes of both ends. I do not wish to see a country dominated by a Conservative way of thinking, because perspective only allows an individual to see so far. The Democratic party has been a party of a more centralized form of Government for the purpose of better conditions for the people... The Republican Party has been the party of ensuring the liberties and stopping the destructive growth of Government. The need for both are evident and needed for the furtherance of The American Destiny...That Destiny being a light to a world of desolation and tyranny, to show the world that Freedom and peace can be attained by self governance and faith.

By allowing the division, we are allowing those that wish to transform our nation to a soft tyrannical mecca to win. I think we can all agree that both the Republican and Democratic party as they currently stand have had a solid go at it.

i despise the Progressive movement for what it has become, and what it is being cleverly used as. Progress to what? We have an assault on our liberties....and we are to busy worrying what team we want to win? sad. The Tea Party movement transcends the political party division. And Americans will realize that this is a lot bigger then their "team"....and when those Americans wake up, we will finally be able to stand together against the establishment that has run us into the ground....and threatens our futures.

I can't stand those that won't voice their true feelings, and rather remain lukewarm. It hinders understanding, and blocks truth....as well as being dishonest. No Human is objective in their thinking, such modes of thinking would not allow for self-preservation and may indicate a weak set of personal morals..
BS. Complete and utter. This is like saying no man can view a woman without thinking of having sex with her, it is part of his nature.:rolleyes: How do you explain men who jump on grenades to protect their mates? That does not allow for self-preservation. What, they have weak morals.?
Objectivity is a goal, it applies rational thought to events to determine the truth, it is akin to using the scientific method. It seeks the truth of an event or a situation.

The truth of the matter is this...The Liberal Movement (progessive) has infected and destroyed both our parties...A Democrat and Republican used to believe in the same things, but just had different means of achieving the goals. It saddens me that we have gotten to this point that we can no longer agree on key issues without bringing up discrepancies in our parties tenets. We are Americans, and i refuse to be defined by a party.

As far as progressives, I agree that the current progressive movement has many potential flaws. I do not agree that in a historical perspective it was evil.

Who said this:

"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it."

[rwilleby]

Why do people act like one side is better than the other?

One is pretty screwed up if you ask me.

fify

Mac vs PC...

[HUM398]

As far as progressives, I agree that the current progressive movement has many potential flaws. I do not agree that in a historical perspective it was evil.

Who said this:

"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it."

Objectivity is a tool used to explore truth, but once truth has been discovered...Why remain objective... It goes against our nature to continue to ignore our perceived truths for the sake of appearing objective....it's stupid.

and i disagree with the quote.... I am no subject, and my Liiberty comes from God.

[Favpack]

The Center for American Progress Action Fund (We tricked up ACORN and are hoping you idiots don't catch on) transforms progressive ideas into policy through rapid response communications, legislative action, grassroots organizing and advocacy, and partnerships with other progressive leaders throughout the country and the world. The Action Fund is also the home of the Progress Report and ThinkProgress.

Nice graphs.

[HUM398]

As far as progressives, I agree that the current progressive movement has many potential flaws. I do not agree that in a historical perspective it was evil.

Who said this:

"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it."

And by the way. Read the book Woodrow Wilson and The Root of Modern Liberalism....it is a tough read for most, but i strongly encourage you read it. i read it about a year ago.

[slcdragonfan]

Objectivity is a tool used to explore truth, but once truth has been discovered...Why remain objective... It goes against our nature to continue to ignore our perceived truths for the sake of appearing objective....it's stupid.

and i disagree with the quote.... I am no subject, and my Liiberty comes from God.

Please define what that liberty means. And if that liberty comes from God, what does that liberty have to say about those who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, athiest? In a governmental context?

Here is another quote:

"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world -- no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a government of conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."

[Favpack]

And by the way. Read the book Woodrow Wilson and The Root of Modern Liberalism....it is a tough read for most, but i strongly encourage you read it. i read it about a year ago.

Does it have graphs?

[Favpack]

For about the past six months the future of the GOP has certainly looked brighter than the future of the Democrats. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html
On another note the good news for you fenix is that people tend to get more conservative the older the get and the farther away they get from their college experience.

Takes about 1 year in the real world per semester in college, and/or an approximate 1:1 ratio of living off daddy.

[HUM398]

Please define what that liberty means. And if that liberty comes from God, what does that liberty have to say about those who are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, athiest? In a governmental context?

Here is another quote:

"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world -- no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a government of conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."

God created all men, regardless of their choice to love or reject God. It is in that Liberty that they are able to do Love or reject him. The gift of Free will and Liberty are made out of Love. Nature is the greatest proof for this natural right to Liberty.

and you misquoted Mr. Wilson.

" I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by
the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."- W. Wilson.

[slcdragonfan]

And by the way. Read the book Woodrow Wilson and The Root of Modern Liberalism....it is a tough read for most, but i strongly encourage you read it. i read it about a year ago.

Ronald J. Pestritto, isn't he the reference used by GB? While I acknowledge his academic credentials, do you consider that book to be balanced and fair in its assessment? I am intrigued by him and his stances regarding history.

By they way, I have never been a big fan of Wilson, I just thought it would be illuminating to see that he had multiple sides to him.

[HUM398]

Does it have graphs?

No. and no pictures either.

[HUM398]

Ronald J. Pestritto, isn't he the reference used by GB? While I acknowledge his academic credentials, do you consider that book to be balanced and fair in its assessment? I am intrigued by him and his stances regarding history.

By they way, I have never been a big fan of Wilson, I just thought it would be illuminating to see that he had multiple sides to him.

No idea if GB reference him or not.... I don't often watch his show, so i wouldn't know what books he recommends of not.

That book was purchased for me by a Marine friend of mine for my birthday...he was in Afghanistan at the time, and originally bought it for me but took it with him for reading material...he got about two pages into it, before he sent it to me. He said it was more down my alley....lol.

[5ASports]

I alway love hearing how "educated people are more likely to be Democrats." “More Educated” is an easy category to imply misleading conclusions with. College students, recent grads, and professional academics (ex. professors) are generally very “idealistic.” This idealism easily leads them to the Democratic Party’s speaking points. Conversely, as they get further from Academia, practical experience leads the “Educated Working” to more Republican values.

[slcdragonfan]

God created all men, regardless of their choice to love or reject God. It is in that Liberty that they are able to do Love or reject him. The gift of Free will and Liberty are made out of Love. Nature is the greatest proof for this natural right to Liberty.

and you misquoted Mr. Wilson.

" I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by
the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."- W. Wilson.

There is a lot of debate about the first part:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Woodrow_Wilson

[HUM398]

There is a lot of debate about the first part:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Woodrow_Wilson

of course there is.

No one wants to paint the model Progressive as an idiot...but you read that book, and do your own research...You will come away knowing that he did far more harm then he did good.

[slcdragonfan]

of course there is.

No one wants to paint the model Progressive as an idiot...but you read that book, and do your own research...You will come away knowing that he did far more harm then he did good.

What I meant is that there is doubt that he said the bolded part.

[HUM398]

What I meant is that there is doubt that he said the bolded part.

I know that is what you meant.

I am sure that their is a debate regarding the validity of the quote, but someone how that doesn't surprise me.

I regard President Wilson as a sore on our history. I dislike him, and most of his policies. I feel similar things for the Presidency of T.R, although i love the story of the man before the office. I also can say that i have strong dislike for FDR as well.

[shslb15]

I know that is what you meant.

I am sure that their is a debate regarding the validity of the quote, but someone how that doesn't surprise me.

I regard President Wilson as a soar on our history. I dislike him, and most of his policies. I feel similar things for the Presidency of T.R, although i love the story of the man before the office. I also can say that i have strong dislike for FDR as well.

I agree 1000% with your final paragraph... :yes::notworthy

[the_phoenix612]

Vi = strength, force, power, might, violence

verborum = cheat/deceive someone

omnia = in all respects

superabo = overcome, conquer, survive, be above, have the upper hand


I would bet that Feenix is a God fearing Republican incognito on this forum. :rofl:

With the power of words, I will overcome all. Latin.

For about the past six months the future of the GOP has certainly looked brighter than the future of the Democrats. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html
On another note the good news for you fenix is that people tend to get more conservative the older the get and the farther away they get from their college experience.
You look short term. I'm looking long term.

[cyfallsbooster2]

For about the past six months the future of the GOP has certainly looked brighter than the future of the Democrats. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html
On another note the good news for you fenix is that people tend to get more conservative the older the get and the farther away they get from their college experience.


Or as they get out in the real world and start figuring out on thier own that that liberal sh*t don't work.

[smw358]

With the power of words, I will overcome all. Latin.


You look short term. I'm looking long term.

Yes, The Word is powerful.......

[cougmantx]

For about the past six months the future of the GOP has certainly looked brighter than the future of the Democrats. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html
On another note the good news for you fenix is that people tend to get more conservative the older the get and the farther away they get from their college experience.

Mung,

I went just the opposite! Just can't take the blantant corruption and defense of the indefensible by the Republican party. Steal, lie, cheat, shift wealth to the wealthiest, start wars (through lies), get over 4000 Americans killed in a war of choice, shift congressional districts to better suit them, defend corporations over citizens, bail out financial cronies and disallow unemployment extentions (even though they pay into it, in some cases for years)...etc, etc, etc.

Nothing I can find to admire in the Republican Party at all and I am constantly amazed that intelligent people as yourself can continue to defend them either.

[slcdragonfan]

Mung,

I went just the opposite! Just can't take the blantant corruption and defense of the indefensible by the Republican party. Steal, lie, cheat, shift wealth to the wealthiest, start wars (through lies), get over 4000 Americans killed in a war of choice, shift congressional districts to better suit them, defend corporations over citizens, bail out financial cronies and disallow unemployment extentions (even though they pay into it, in some cases for years)...etc, etc, etc.

Nothing I can find to admire in the Republican Party at all and I am constantly amazed that intelligent people as yourself can continue to defend them either.

McCain was my kind of GOP guy. A maverick in his party, not under control of the "party elite", making his own decisions about right and wrong without the puppet strings. He wasn't perfect, but he was someone I could get behind. How was he handled by his party? As an outcast. He ended up not being true to himself and his compromises to bring in the party doubters cost him the election IMO.

[cougmantx]

McCain was my kind of GOP guy. A maverick in his party, not under control of the "party elite", making his own decisions about right and wrong without the puppet strings. He wasn't perfect, but he was someone I could get behind. How was he handled by his party? As an outcast. He ended up not being true to himself and his compromises to bring in the party doubters cost him the election IMO.

2000 yes
2009 not even close

[slcdragonfan]

2000 yes
2009 not even close

In 2000 he did not compromise. He also was not malleable by the party.

[cougmantx]

In 2000 he did not compromise. He also was not malleable by the party.

Your right but the Bush smear campaign sure did a number on him. I really wanted to vote for him in 2000.

[HUM398]

McCain was my kind of GOP guy. A maverick in his party, not under control of the "party elite", making his own decisions about right and wrong without the puppet strings. He wasn't perfect, but he was someone I could get behind. How was he handled by his party? As an outcast. He ended up not being true to himself and his compromises to bring in the party doubters cost him the election IMO.

McCain was a tool, and not good for the Country. McCain is just a progressive republican...which is why you probably like him.

I don't see this country being that much better off now with him as president.

[E-Vol-ution]

McCain was a tool, and not good for the Country. McCain is just a progressive republican...which is why you probably like him.

Here's a clue.......the Republican party isn't progressive enough, therefore no future.

[HUM398]

Here's a clue.......the Republican party isn't progressive enough, therefore no future.

Being too progressive got our country in this mess. America will realize this at the end of this current presidents term.

Once you realize that 99% of the things you hear and read is just rhetoric....you'll be better off.

I have yet to find a Liberal progressive to show me exactly how the Conservative principles got us into this finical mess....

The Progressive movement is a poisonous one.

[E-Vol-ution]

Being too progressive got our country in this mess. America will realize this at the end of this current presidents term.

Once you realize that 99% of the things you hear and read is just rhetoric....you'll be better off.

I have yet to find a Liberal progressive to show me exactly how the Conservative principles got us into this finical mess....

The Progressive movement is a poisonous one.

You don't need a liberal progressive to show you that..........just look at the outdated conservative principal of deceit for your answer.

[mad_fan]

As much as I know you ODRBs hate facts and statistics, this is a pretty compelling analysis of the future of the GOP extrapolating current demographic trends.

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/voter_demographics.pdf

tl;dr: country is getting less white and more educated, growing the constituencies that currently dominate the Democratic party and forcing the GOP to the center or to regionalization.

I think everything will be fine for conservatives...so forgive me for not reading all three pages...

[HUM398]

You don't need a liberal progressive to show you that..........just look at the outdated conservative principal of deceit for your answer.

fail.

Do you see what you did there?

opinion isn't proof....you didn't show me how it is wrong.

How is it outdated? and our the founders principles out dated?

Why is it a principle of deceit?

Is Deceit a conservative principle? If so, are all politicians conservative?

[E-Vol-ution]

fail.

Do you see what you did there?

opinion isn't proof....you didn't show me how it is wrong.

How is it outdated? and our the founders principles out dated?

Why is it a principle of deceit?

Is Deceit a conservative principle? If so, are all politicians conservative?

Deceit allowed the financial downfall of our country, fake emergencies, inflated markets, no bid government contracts, patronage, business as usual, corporate greed, personal irresponsibility.
You tell me who has been in control........it took more than a year and a half to screw it up and will take much time to fix it.
Don't confuse the founders principles with the conservative principles that got us where we are. These dudes have nothing in common with our founding fathers.

[mad_fan]

Deceit allowed the financial downfall of our country, fake emergencies, inflated markets, no bid government contracts, patronage, business as usual, corporate greed, personal irresponsibility.
You tell me who has been in control........it took more than a year and a half to screw it up and will take much time to fix it.
Don't confuse the founders principles with the conservative principles that got us where we are. These dudes have nothing in common with our founding fathers.

Move along...Obama fixed all that...:rolleyes:

[HUM398]

Deceit allowed the financial downfall of our country, fake emergencies, inflated markets, no bid government contracts, patronage, business as usual, corporate greed, personal irresponsibility.
You tell me who has been in control........it took more than a year and a half to screw it up and will take much time to fix it.
Don't confuse the founders principles with the conservative principles that got us where we are. These dudes have nothing in common with our founding fathers.

What dudes?

I am a conservative....The Republican party isn't, and hasn't been for nearly 60 years. Reagan has been the only conservative president since Calvin Coolidge...and even Reagan was a bit farther left then Coolidge.

The advancement of Darwinian Capitalism is a progressive built machine.


You want to see this country transformer to prosperous ways, throw out the progressive bums.

Big Government, means stifled growth and collapse of liberties.

[HUM398]

Move along...Obama fixed all that...:rolleyes:

Obama is so...like...holy...

[HUM398]

Here's a clue.......the Republican party isn't progressive enough, therefore no future.

If republicans will return to Conservative principles...there will most defiantly be a future.

According to Gallop in 2010 Conservatives outnumber Liberals...2:1.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-Conservatives-Outnumber-Moderates-Liberals.aspx

[slcdragonfan]

McCain was a tool, and not good for the Country. McCain is just a progressive republican...which is why you probably like him.

I don't see this country being that much better off now with him as president.

Derp.

[HUM398]

Derp.

youre ghey

[slcdragonfan]

youre ghey

That's why you love me.

[HUM398]

That's why you love me.

HUM loves no ghey. HUM is a fan of ******.

[GoOwls]

Why do people act like one side is better than the other?

They're both pretty screwed up if you ask me.

If you truly believe that both are screwed up, why do you always defend one side or those who argue that side and never defend the other?

I know why...and you know why, but will you admit why you do?

No.....but here is your chance to out yourself on your politics.

FailOwls....I like it....the constant attention of the YDB's trying to minimize me just lets me know that I'm getting through and you don't like it much.

Age and guile > youth and ignorance

[GoOwls]

RR, you are not allowed to view things objectively, that only means that you have no core set of values. :rolleyes:
You can see hypocrisy, but talking about it will get you scorched. Look at what happens to FF when he points it out in football? Same thing in the yard.

People treat politics like football or any other sport. Take a side and yell for your team. Deride the other team as much as possible.

Congratulations, you libs are pretty good at it, too....:D

[GoOwls]

Mung,

I went just the opposite! Just can't take the blantant corruption and defense of the indefensible by the Republican party. Steal, lie, cheat, shift wealth to the wealthiest, start wars (through lies), get over 4000 Americans killed in a war of choice, shift congressional districts to better suit them, defend corporations over citizens, bail out financial cronies and disallow unemployment extentions (even though they pay into it, in some cases for years)...etc, etc, etc.

Nothing I can find to admire in the Republican Party at all and I am constantly amazed that intelligent people as yourself can continue to defend them either.

Why is it that during the Bush years, every news show, be it on TV or Radio, would tell of the American Soldiers lives lost in Iraq/Afghanistan and would finish with something like, "And that brings the total of American deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war to 2,345", said in a somber tone and meant to have maximum impact....

...but now, over the last year and a half, they just say that 2 soldiers were killed by terrorists, or a mortar attack, or an IED, but they never give a total anymore......once in a while, but almost never......

....wonder why the sudden lack of interest in making the American people as aware of the short-comings of the federal government as possible so as to inflame a voter rebellion?

I just wonder why the hypocrisy....and the ignorant hypocrisy of yourself....a smart man who should know better...ashamed, you should be.

[GoOwls]

Here's a clue.......the Republican party isn't progressive enough, therefore no future.

So.....economic plans that raise the federal debt by 3 to 5 times what it was during the Bush era, by 2014 is progressive.......gotcha....;)

[GoOwls]

Deceit allowed the financial downfall of our country, fake emergencies, inflated markets, no bid government contracts, patronage, business as usual, corporate greed, personal irresponsibility.
You tell me who has been in control........it took more than a year and a half to screw it up and will take much time to fix it.
Don't confuse the founders principles with the conservative principles that got us where we are. These dudes have nothing in common with our founding fathers.

Beginning today and peaking next Friday and going on till July 19, I have a maximum of 16 at one time, of 140 businesses, that will be taking from 1 to 3 weeks off...shutting down completely.....all personnel, if they have leave time, can use it then if they choose to, or just do leave without pay (LWOP).

There will be a total of 21 businesses taking at least one week off and there are about 5 more that may choose to do so on later notice so I can hold the mail.

God knows how may will close a few days to save some bucks so they can try to stay open....I have about 10-20 who close almost every Friday now, as it is...and about 3 that regularly close on Thursdays.

In 26 years, through Democrat and Republican admins, the most I've ever had close for July 4th week was 3.

Yep, the confidence in Obama is growing.....and you know who is most effected by these closings...lower class Hispanics in production jobs......a demographic that the Demos really can't afford to lose......I bet those on my route are pretty impressed with the Big O about now.

[Mong Hu]

Just thought this might be of interest to this discussion knowing fenix' penchant for graphs.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/Gallup_Conservatives_Outnumber_Liberals.jpg

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2010/06/25/gallup-conservatives-outnumber-liberals-2-to-1/

[the_phoenix612]

Just thought this might be of interest to this discussion knowing fenix' penchant for graphs.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/Gallup_Conservatives_Outnumber_Liberals.jpg

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2010/06/25/gallup-conservatives-outnumber-liberals-2-to-1/
Like I said, keep looking short term. That always works out well.

[slcdragonfan]

Why is it that during the Bush years, every news show, be it on TV or Radio, would tell of the American Soldiers lives lost in Iraq/Afghanistan and would finish with something like, "And that brings the total of American deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war to 2,345", said in a somber tone and meant to have maximum impact....

...but now, over the last year and a half, they just say that 2 soldiers were killed by terrorists, or a mortar attack, or an IED, but they never give a total anymore......once in a while, but almost never......

....wonder why the sudden lack of interest in making the American people as aware of the short-comings of the federal government as possible so as to inflame a voter rebellion?

I just wonder why the hypocrisy....and the ignorant hypocrisy of yourself....a smart man who should know better...ashamed, you should be.

The Lehrer Report still covers it the same way. And every channel should be talking about our troops, there is too much disconnect between their sacrifice and what is going on in this country. The news talks about Lindsey Lohan's latest miscue while another trooper goes into danger.

[ktCarl]

Mung,

I went just the opposite! Just can't take the blantant corruption and defense of the indefensible by the Republican party. Steal, lie, cheat, shift wealth to the wealthiest, start wars (through lies), get over 4000 Americans killed in a war of choice, shift congressional districts to better suit them, defend corporations over citizens, bail out financial cronies and disallow unemployment extentions (even though they pay into it, in some cases for years)...etc, etc, etc.

Nothing I can find to admire in the Republican Party at all and I am constantly amazed that intelligent people as yourself can continue to defend them either.

You think the Democrat Party is not guilty of these same sins? Surely you are not that naive. The Dems and Repubs sleep in the same beds with the same Hoes.

[mad_fan]

You think the Democrat Party is not guilty of these same sins? Surely you are not that naive. The Dems and Repubs sleep in the same beds with the same Hoes.

Or at least vote together on 'wars of choice'...

[ktCarl]

Or at least vote together on 'wars of choice'...


The 'military-industrial complex' owns both Parties. There's not a war unworthy of participating in or fomenting.

[15Adragon]

Why is it that during the Bush years, every news show, be it on TV or Radio, would tell of the American Soldiers lives lost in Iraq/Afghanistan and would finish with something like, "And that brings the total of American deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war to 2,345", said in a somber tone and meant to have maximum impact....

...but now, over the last year and a half, they just say that 2 soldiers were killed by terrorists, or a mortar attack, or an IED, but they never give a total anymore......once in a while, but almost never......

....wonder why the sudden lack of interest in making the American people as aware of the short-comings of the federal government as possible so as to inflame a voter rebellion?

I just wonder why the hypocrisy....and the ignorant hypocrisy of yourself....a smart man who should know better...ashamed, you should be.

Good point. Where are the daily body counts? The constant reminder of how we are hated because of GITMO? These were lines 1 and 2 in the daily neolib talking points, now not so much... Such conviction.

[mojotrain]

Good point. Where are the daily body counts? The constant reminder of how we are hated because of GITMO? These were lines 1 and 2 in the daily neolib talking points, now not so much... Such conviction.

katie stopped using the daily body count as her lead off story on her morning cbs, pimping for bama show the day his lordship took office.

[Mong Hu]

Mung,

I went just the opposite! Just can't take the blantant corruption and defense of the indefensible by the Republican party. Steal, lie, cheat, shift wealth to the wealthiest, start wars (through lies), get over 4000 Americans killed in a war of choice, shift congressional districts to better suit them, defend corporations over citizens, bail out financial cronies and disallow unemployment extentions (even though they pay into it, in some cases for years)...etc, etc, etc.

Nothing I can find to admire in the Republican Party at all and I am constantly amazed that intelligent people as yourself can continue to defend them either.

Cougman,

I know that not everyone follows the same path in life and I am certainly glad that their are independent thinkers such as yourself in this world. While I did post a response to Phoenix' initial statement it was not so much intended to support the Republicans as it was to make an argument counter to Phoenix. I don't think that Democrats or Republicans are looking that great to many right now for all the reasons you stated above. I don't think that there is much to admire in either of the two party's. I am not a registered Republican or Democrat. (Although I am fearful enough of the direction of the Democrats in office now that I have considered registering Republican just to get the current bunch of Democrats out)

I do not feel that I defend Republicans so much as I defend what I consider to be conservative positions. I do not think that Republicans represent conservative positions well in many cases which would explain how such a large percentage of the population (42%) considers itself conservative but only 28% indentify themselves as Republican.

As I said I think that both parties are filled with crooks, cheats, and liars, you know politicians. For this reason I can not understand how any intelligent person, such as yourself, could support the Democrats. The Democrats believe in larger government and the Republicans at least say they support the conservative idea of smaller government. While Republicans have not always been able to live up to this vision (It is always easier to tell someone that you'll give them something, Democrats, than to tell someone you are going to take something away, Republicans), at least they say that they want smaller government. For me it seems like a no brainer. Do you want the cheat, crook, and liar who wants more power (Democrats) or the cheat, crook, and liar who subscribes to an ideology that advocates for less power to the government (Republicans). I want the cheats, crooks, and liars, you know politicians, to have less power. The difficulty is of course that the guys are cheats, crooks, and liars and so while they promise smaller government they do not deliver (thus the discrepancy noted above between conservatives and Republican identification).

I don't want to be too cynical (and this post certainly is) but I agree with much of your description of Republicans I just happen to also think that most, if not all of that list, also applies to Democrats.

Thanks for the post. I really enjoy discussions with you on this board and enjoy reading what you have to say. It is always said in a thoughtful manner and gives me hope that our democracy may yet be salvaged as thinking members of our society continue to discuss passionately the issues which confront us.

[cougmantx]

Cougman,

I know that not everyone follows the same path in life and I am certainly glad that their are independent thinkers such as yourself in this world. While I did post a response to Phoenix' initial statement it was not so much intended to support the Republicans as it was to make an argument counter to Phoenix. I don't think that Democrats or Republicans are looking that great to many right now for all the reasons you stated above. I don't think that there is much to admire in either of the two party's. I am not a registered Republican or Democrat. (Although I am fearful enough of the direction of the Democrats in office now that I have considered registering Republican just to get the current bunch of Democrats out)

I do not feel that I defend Republicans so much as I defend what I consider to be conservative positions. I do not think that Republicans represent conservative positions well in many cases which would explain how such a large percentage of the population (42%) considers itself conservative but only 28% indentify themselves as Republican.

As I said I think that both parties are filled with crooks, cheats, and liars, you know politicians. For this reason I can not understand how any intelligent person, such as yourself, could support the Democrats. The Democrats believe in larger government and the Republicans at least say they support the conservative idea of smaller government. While Republicans have not always been able to live up to this vision (It is always easier to tell someone that you'll give them something, Democrats, than to tell someone you are going to take something away, Republicans), at least they say that they want smaller government. For me it seems like a no brainer. Do you want the cheat, crook, and liar who wants more power (Democrats) or the cheat, crook, and liar who subscribes to an ideology that advocates for less power to the government (Republicans). I want the cheats, crooks, and liars, you know politicians, to have less power. The difficulty is of course that the guys are cheats, crooks, and liars and so while they promise smaller government they do not deliver (thus the discrepancy noted above between conservatives and Republican identification).

I don't want to be too cynical (and this post certainly is) but I agree with much of your description of Republicans I just happen to also think that most, if not all of that list, also applies to Democrats.

Thanks for the post. I really enjoy discussions with you on this board and enjoy reading what you have to say. It is always said in a thoughtful manner and gives me hope that our democracy may yet be salvaged as thinking members of our society continue to discuss passionately the issues which confront us.

What I find most interesting is how the definition of conservative has changed from those willing to "conserve" to those advocating for some of the most destructive policies enacted.

Our biggest contribution to the world economy is our consumerism and also one of the most devastating. Balance and conservation is not part of the conservative vernacular unfortunately.

While labeled a liberal on here you may be surprised by how conservative I really am. I too would like to have a smaller government but the problem is, every time a conservative is put in office we have long periods of expansion to bail out, regulate and to protect the American public from the abuses allowed under the conservative banner in league with multi-national financial and corporate interest. Again, none of this happens in a vacuum.

[mojotrain]

What I find most interesting is how the definition of conservative has changed from those willing to "conserve" to those advocating for some of the most destructive policies enacted.

Our biggest contribution to the world economy is our consumerism and also one of the most devastating. Balance and conservation is not part of the conservative vernacular unfortunately.

While labeled a liberal on here you may be surprised by how conservative I really am. I too would like to have a smaller government but the problem is, every time a conservative is put in office we have long periods of expansion to bail out, regulate and to protect the American public from the abuses allowed under the conservative banner in league with multi-national financial and corporate interest. Again, none of this happens in a vacuum.

I know! I just wished I lived I had been born a citizen of Mexico, China, Russia, North Korea or Iran. I just hate this 24/7 struggle of trying to get where they are already at.

[GoOwls]

Like I said, keep looking short term. That always works out well.

So you admit your polls are an ignorant pasttime since they always change, always are short term...right?

[shslb15]

What I find most interesting is how the definition of conservative has changed from those willing to "conserve" to those advocating for some of the most destructive policies enacted.

Our biggest contribution to the world economy is our consumerism and also one of the most devastating. Balance and conservation is not part of the conservative vernacular unfortunately.

While labeled a liberal on here you may be surprised by how conservative I really am. I too would like to have a smaller government but the problem is, every time a conservative is put in office we have long periods of expansion to bail out, regulate and to protect the American public from the abuses allowed under the conservative banner in league with multi-national financial and corporate interest. Again, none of this happens in a vacuum.

No one with a quote from a progressive can claim to be a conservative... GW wasn't a conservative, there are no more conservative politicians in that sense. They are all going after 1 thing, get elected. To get elected, politicians go after the social issues, and any "republican" spews out the Reagenomics key words and says they are conservative. There isn't a single person in Washington who isn't wiping their a** with the constitution. Isn't it our governments job to protect our boarders? Isn't it our governments job to protect the rights of individual citizens? Sure are doing a great job of that.

The more that this administration vilifies "big business", especially "Big Oil", the more I laugh. What is really going to be funny, is when "Big Oil" and "Big Business" say FU to the US and head over seas. I know this is a small example but it is worth noting. I watched an interview between the president and owner of the Bellagio Casino and during the interview he said he will never build another casino or resort in the United States. The woman doing the interview asked him why, and he said it would be more profitable and the government would be easier to deal with if he were to build it in China. The woman reminded him that "You do know that China is still a communist nation" he responded "Have you been watching the news, do you see what our government is doing now?"

Last time I checked its still GW's fault, 2 years later...

[slcdragonfan]

No one with a quote from a progressive can claim to be a conservative... GW wasn't a conservative, there are no more conservative politicians in that sense. They are all going after 1 thing, get elected. To get elected, politicians go after the social issues, and any "republican" spews out the Reagenomics key words and says they are conservative. There isn't a single person in Washington who isn't wiping their a** with the constitution. Isn't it our governments job to protect our borders? Isn't it our governments job to protect the rights of individual citizens? Sure are doing a great job of that.

The more that this administration vilifies "big business", especially "Big Oil", the more I laugh. What is really going to be funny, is when "Big Oil" and "Big Business" say FU to the US and head over seas.
don't look now but you might want to check out India and China. 1 in 3 manufacturing jobs has left in the past 10-15 years.
I know this is a small example but it is worth noting. I watched an interview between the president and owner of the Bellagio Casino and during the interview he said he will never build another casino or resort in the United States. The woman doing the interview asked him why, and he said it would be more profitable and the government would be easier to deal with if he were to build it in China. The woman reminded him that "You do know that China is still a communist nation" he responded "Have you been watching the news, do you see what our government is doing now?"
How many businesses are state-owned now? It's outa control I tell ya'.

Last time I checked its still GW's fault, 2 years later...
What do you care, did you forget what you wrote in the first paragraph? :rofl:


Deytukur jobs.

[cougmantx]

No one with a quote from a progressive can claim to be a conservative... GW wasn't a conservative, there are no more conservative politicians in that sense. They are all going after 1 thing, get elected. To get elected, politicians go after the social issues, and any "republican" spews out the Reagenomics key words and says they are conservative. There isn't a single person in Washington who isn't wiping their a** with the constitution. Isn't it our governments job to protect our boarders? Isn't it our governments job to protect the rights of individual citizens? Sure are doing a great job of that.

The more that this administration vilifies "big business", especially "Big Oil", the more I laugh. What is really going to be funny, is when "Big Oil" and "Big Business" say FU to the US and head over seas. I know this is a small example but it is worth noting. I watched an interview between the president and owner of the Bellagio Casino and during the interview he said he will never build another casino or resort in the United States. The woman doing the interview asked him why, and he said it would be more profitable and the government would be easier to deal with if he were to build it in China. The woman reminded him that "You do know that China is still a communist nation" he responded "Have you been watching the news, do you see what our government is doing now?"

Last time I checked its still GW's fault, 2 years later...

I see no big loss here. I haven't been in a Casino to gamble and probably could go through my life never going in one and be quit happy.

You statement reminds me of your tag line by Coach Perkins...not well thought out.

[shslb15]

I see no big loss here. I haven't been in a Casino to gamble and probably could go through my life never going in one and be quit happy.

You statement reminds me of your tag line by Coach Perkins...not well thought out.

I know it wasn't very thought out, but to compare it to Coach P... I donno bout that. ;)

[mojotrain]

No one with a quote from a progressive can claim to be a conservative... GW wasn't a conservative, there are no more conservative politicians in that sense. They are all going after 1 thing, get elected. To get elected, politicians go after the social issues, and any "republican" spews out the Reagenomics key words and says they are conservative. There isn't a single person in Washington who isn't wiping their a** with the constitution. Isn't it our governments job to protect our boarders? Isn't it our governments job to protect the rights of individual citizens? Sure are doing a great job of that.

The more that this administration vilifies "big business", especially "Big Oil", the more I laugh. What is really going to be funny, is when "Big Oil" and "Big Business" say FU to the US and head over seas. I know this is a small example but it is worth noting. I watched an interview between the president and owner of the Bellagio Casino and during the interview he said he will never build another casino or resort in the United States. The woman doing the interview asked him why, and he said it would be more profitable and the government would be easier to deal with if he were to build it in China. The woman reminded him that "You do know that China is still a communist nation" he responded "Have you been watching the news, do you see what our government is doing now?"

Last time I checked its still GW's fault, 2 years later...

Great post! The libs are scratching their fannies right now trying to figure your avitar. It's one source they won't seek.

[shslb15]

Deytukur jobs.

GW was a moron and was equally as bad about spitting on the constitution, but to say that all of the problems with the economy is his fault (as the barry administration is doing) is a joke.

Chevron, Shell, Conoco Phillips, Marathon, and Exxon (BP maybe, I know they have a major office in Katy, my neighbor is a partner on the BP audit) are all head quartered in Houston. So what happens if they leave? How many jobs are lost because Obama wants to go after "Big Oil"? I am not talking about just at the specific oil companies. I am going to work for a Big 4 accounting firm in Houston, mainly because I want to work on energy clients. Will that Big 4 firm still need the people when they don't need to audit a client with a 30-50 person audit team? The firm I am going to work for audits the majority of those companies, they will definitely not need to continue to hire new people in the event that those companies leave.

[shslb15]

Great post! The libs are scratching their fannies right now trying to figure your avitar. It's one source they won't seek.

It is because they are terrified of it, it is just as relevant and true now as it was 53 years ago. Replace the railroad and steel industry with the oil industry today and it is all the same.

Who is John Galt?

[slcdragonfan]

nm

[slcdragonfan]

GW was a moron and was equally as bad about spitting on the constitution, but to say that all of the problems with the economy is his fault (as the barry administration is doing) is a joke.

Chevron, Shell, Conoco Phillips, Marathon, and Exxon (BP maybe, I know they have a major office in Katy, my neighbor is a partner on the BP audit) are all head quartered in Houston. So what happens if they leave? How many jobs are lost because Obama wants to go after "Big Oil"? I am not talking about just at the specific oil companies. I am going to work for a Big 4 accounting firm in Houston, mainly because I want to work on energy clients. Will that Big 4 firm still need the people when they don't need to audit a client with a 30-50 person audit team? The firm I am going to work for audits the majority of those companies, they will definitely not need to continue to hire new people in the event that those companies leave.

Welcome to the real world, brother. That has been happening in my industry and many others for years. Hard to compete when they are 1/3 the price and quality is not factored into the equation. But I want to blame guvmit too.

"...Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up...."

[shslb15]

Welcome to the real world, brother. That has been happening in my industry and many others for years. Hard to compete when they are 1/3 the price and quality is not factored into the equation. But I want to blame guvmit too.

"...Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up...."

It won't happen in the accounting unless companies start to leave. The firms have to continue to hire new auditors as managers, associates, etc leave the firm for other work (I am only going off of auditing, tax sucks), but if there aren't large clients to audit, because they leave, they won't need to hire new people. That is the one thing that is reassuring though. Because of how strict the PCAOB and the SEC are after the whole Enron Woldcom, and now Lehman Brothers, a substandard audit can kill an accounting firm. A big public company can't go after a cheaper auditor because it can be their a** if its a substandard audit.

One scary thing though, is the impending Supreme Court decision on whether Sox is constitutional, mainly with the problem that the PCAOB is apart of the SEC but its members are not approved by the Senate or are not selected by the President. If Sox is deemed unconstitutional it will completely change the accounting industry, most notably auditing.

[The King]

It won't happen in the accounting unless companies start to leave. The firms have to continue to hire new auditors as managers, associates, etc leave the firm for other work (I am only going off of auditing, tax sucks), but if there aren't large clients to audit, because they leave, they won't need to hire new people. That is the one thing that is reassuring though. Because of how strict the PCAOB and the SEC are after the whole Enron Woldcom, and now Lehman Brothers, a substandard audit can kill an accounting firm. A big public company can't go after a cheaper auditor because it can be their a** if its a substandard audit.

One scary thing though, is the impending Supreme Court decision on whether Sox is constitutional, mainly with the problem that the PCAOB is apart of the SEC but its members are not approved by the Senate or are not selected by the President. If Sox is deemed unconstitutional it will completely change the accounting industry, most notably auditing.

Im curious as to weather or not Sox has sent jobs overseas due to cost of the regulations required to operate in the United States

[The King]

What I find most interesting is how the definition of conservative has changed from those willing to "conserve" to those advocating for some of the most destructive policies enacted.

Our biggest contribution to the world economy is our consumerism and also one of the most devastating. Balance and conservation is not part of the conservative vernacular unfortunately.

While labeled a liberal on here you may be surprised by how conservative I really am. I too would like to have a smaller government but the problem is, every time a conservative is put in office we have long periods of expansion to bail out, regulate and to protect the American public from the abuses allowed under the conservative banner in league with multi-national financial and corporate interest. Again, none of this happens in a vacuum.

Im not liking either party right now.

[shslb15]

Im curious as to weather or not Sox has sent jobs overseas due to cost of the regulations required to operate in the United States

It is a possibility, but for any company that trades on the NYSE they have to have an audit in accordance to the PCAOB thus, they are forced to follow the rules that were put in place by SOX. There really is no escaping it except for no longer being a public company and just stick to being private. The costs of an audit now is ridiculous, mostly due to the costs for 404 and internal controls. I currently am working at a private company who does not require an audit of internal controls, which makes it a lot cheaper. They more than likely will remain this way.

The section 404 is the most contested part of SOX, most people agree that at the time it was a necessary bill but the costs are mounting. Most companies decide that it is better to remain private to avoid the additional audit fees (I know that this isn't a major factor, but when you audit fees just about double because of the additional costs, it has to be considered).

I don't feel that companies are shipping operations to other places because of additional audit fees, or the costs to implement the necessary internal controls.

I just looked up the IAASB (International Auditing and Assurance Standards Board) the international version of the PCAOB (which is a joke by the way). They also have implemented the same standard forcing companies to have their internal controls audited so there really isn't any differences.

A few fun facts about the PCAOB (section 101 of SOX put them in control over the AICPA, which is run by CPA's).. 1. Of the 5 board members only 2 CPA's can sit on the board. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A BOARD FOR ACCOUNTANTS AND ONLY HAVE 2 EXPERTS WHO HAVE THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATION AN ACCOUNTANT CAN HAVE. 2 All members selected by the SEC, so not selected by the president and not approved by the senate (the main aspect of the law suit against the PCAOB and how it is "unconstitutional") and finally 3 The main reason that this law firm (a highly conservative law firm that has been involved in many law suits against government bodies), Essentially the PCAOB performs investigations into audits, they force you to go and take them through your audit, looking at all of your working papers and everything. In the end the PCAOB has the right to state that you performed a substandard audit, and can bar you from performing any audits of public companies, so basically they can dictate whether you can exist or not. Arther Anderson was the first victim (rightfully so) of the PCAOB (the first thing the PCAOB and the SEC did)

So let me pose the question to yall, is the PCAOB constitutional (they lack any checks and balances from other branches, they are selected by the SEC who gives little insight and balances) and also does the PCAOB have the right to interfere with businesses and say "You did a bad job, so bad that you can no longer do business"?

(Sorry for the length, get me talking about accounting, which at my current job I don't do, I can go for a long time)

[slcdragonfan]

It won't happen in the accounting unless companies start to leave. The firms have to continue to hire new auditors as managers, associates, etc leave the firm for other work (I am only going off of auditing, tax sucks), but if there aren't large clients to audit, because they leave, they won't need to hire new people. That is the one thing that is reassuring though. Because of how strict the PCAOB and the SEC are after the whole Enron Woldcom, and now Lehman Brothers, a substandard audit can kill an accounting firm. A big public company can't go after a cheaper auditor because it can be their a** if its a substandard audit.
Wait. Are you saying that excessive government regulation is guaranteeing a job? ;)
YOu might be surprised at what can be offshored. Perhaps not audits, but perhaps the grunt work associated with an audit? Also, I understand some of the big companies are using Indians to process US taxes (HR BLOCK?). I haven't confirmed that, but I thought I had read about it.


One scary thing though, is the impending Supreme Court decision on whether Sox is constitutional, mainly with the problem that the PCAOB is apart of the SEC but its members are not approved by the Senate or are not selected by the President. If Sox is deemed unconstitutional it will completely change the accounting industry, most notably auditing.

Basically what I am saying is, like it or not, global competition is a fact of life. It has been here since the mid 90's or earlier (NAFTA debate) and is going to continue, no matter if the president if friendly to business or not friendly to business. It is about profit. While some have moved away from the Indian outsourcing, they have moved to Brazil or Nicaragua instead.

Why? Well you either don't have to provide healthcare or the healthcare is so inexpensive, the labor costs are much much less, pension? What pension?, minimal or no environmental laws to worry about the drinking water or air, etc.

We can blame unions, but my industry is not unionized and neither is yours. We can blame the government, but profit is profit and until the labor rates get leveled between these other countries and ours it won't matter.

[shslb15]

Doing the grunt work for an audit is a $50-60K job a year for a staff then associate. Those that are hired by the big 4 usually have a masters in accounting (some undergrad but MPA programs are common at the top 10 accounting schools) and usually have their CPA with in 2-3 years after starting working (I am going off of what I know, I am a MPA (masters of professional accounting) major at UT which I will take my CPA exams spring and summer before I start working). Doing an audit ,as most people that have to deal with auditors, is a long structured tedious process. So not one of those jobs that can be shipped over seas. Those that are doing audits in say China and in Europe go to school for equally as long as an american student goes to do the same work. The accounting industry, mostly the Big 4, are international firms. But to do the actual accounting work necessary for an audit, you have to be on sight. Main reason you don't get a desk or office until you make manager or partner, usually you are always at the client.

A more likely scenario say companies start leaving the US, is that international firms come to the US to get talent. So say I want to work in energy, instead of staying in Houston which is currently the central location for most energy companies, I'd have to go to where ever those companies relocate. International rotations are common and recommended if you want to advance faster in the firm.

I see what you are saying and agree with it. The main reason most of these companies go over seas is because of cheaper labor, less regulations, no EPA. What I am worrying about is the increase of taxes/regulations/ over all invisible hand from the government will only drive more away. Like you said profits are profits but at what point does in the increase of costs in the US drive more companies away, audit fees included.

Yes, it is funny that an increase in regulations is the cause of the increase in demand of auditors. But if Sox didn't happen , I'd probably try and go into consulting which is what an "audit" was until Enron's buddy buddy relationship with Arthur Anderson...

http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Andersen.jpg
A favorite of mine.... when all else fails SHRED BABY SHRED!!!

[slcdragonfan]

Doing the grunt work for an audit is a $50-60K job a year for a staff then associate. Those that are hired by the big 4 usually have a masters in accounting (some undergrad but MPA programs are common at the top 10 accounting schools) and usually have their CPA with in 2-3 years after starting working (I am going off of what I know, I am a MPA (masters of professional accounting) major at UT which I will take my CPA exams spring and summer before I start working). Doing an audit ,as most people that have to deal with auditors, is a long structured tedious process. So not one of those jobs that can be shipped over seas. Those that are doing audits in say China and in Europe go to school for equally as long as an american student goes to do the same work. The accounting industry, mostly the Big 4, are international firms. But to do the actual accounting work necessary for an audit, you have to be on sight. Main reason you don't get a desk or office until you make manager or partner, usually you are always at the client.

A more likely scenario say companies start leaving the US, is that international firms come to the US to get talent. So say I want to work in energy, instead of staying in Houston which is currently the central location for most energy companies, I'd have to go to where ever those companies relocate. International rotations are common and recommended if you want to advance faster in the firm.

I see what you are saying and agree with it. The main reason most of these companies go over seas is because of cheaper labor, less regulations, no EPA. What I am worrying about is the increase of taxes/regulations/ over all invisible hand from the government will only drive more away. Like you said profits are profits but at what point does in the increase of costs in the US drive more companies away, audit fees included.

Yes, it is funny that an increase in regulations is the cause of the increase in demand of auditors. But if Sox didn't happen , I'd probably try and go into consulting which is what an "audit" was until Enron's buddy buddy relationship with Arthur Anderson...

http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Andersen.jpg
A favorite of mine.... when all else fails SHRED BABY SHRED!!!

Congrats on that, try to make it a better America than what you are inheriting. Remember, the older generation screwed everything up until you get to be the older generation, then the one before you looks better all the time. :)

I like the Anderson cartoon. I worked with some very fine ex-Anderson folks doing an Oracle Apps implementation. Very qualified, professional, and dedicated.
Also remember that management can bring a firm down, and it hurts everybody.

[mojotrain]

It is because they are terrified of it, it is just as relevant and true now as it was 53 years ago. Replace the railroad and steel industry with the oil industry today and it is all the same.

Who is John Galt?

Gene Autry!

[mojotrain]

Congrats on that, try to make it a better America than what you are inheriting. Remember, the older generation screwed everything up until you get to be the older generation, then the one before you looks better all the time. :)

I like the Anderson cartoon. I worked with some very fine ex-Anderson folks doing an Oracle Apps implementation. Very qualified, professional, and dedicated.
Also remember that management can bring a firm down, and it hurts everybody.

Age bias = racist. Both can be prosecuted in a court of law.

[shslb15]

Congrats on that, try to make it a better America than what you are inheriting. Remember, the older generation screwed everything up until you get to be the older generation, then the one before you looks better all the time. :)

I like the Anderson cartoon. I worked with some very fine ex-Anderson folks doing an Oracle Apps implementation. Very qualified, professional, and dedicated.
Also remember that management can bring a firm down, and it hurts everybody.

In every major accounting fraud and collapse of a major company, it has always started and ended with management. The term "Top-Down Risk based audit" is because its the tone at the top that dictates how a firm is. If you go into an audit and management isn't willing to work with you or seems to be hiding things from you, you have to increase the amount of audit work you do because it is a more risky audit. I have met a lot of Andersen people still working in public accounting during spring recruiting this past spring. They are all unbelievably talented and very professional, they are that way because AA was the #1 firm, but like you said, it had a pretty crappy tone at the top.

[slcdragonfan]

Age bias = racist. Both can be prosecuted in a court of law.

Darn liberals. ;)

[the_phoenix612]

A few fun facts about the PCAOB (section 101 of SOX put them in control over the AICPA, which is run by CPA's).. 1. Of the 5 board members only 2 CPA's can sit on the board. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A BOARD FOR ACCOUNTANTS AND ONLY HAVE 2 EXPERTS WHO HAVE THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATION AN ACCOUNTANT CAN HAVE. 2 All members selected by the SEC, so not selected by the president and not approved by the senate (the main aspect of the law suit against the PCAOB and how it is "unconstitutional") and finally 3 The main reason that this law firm (a highly conservative law firm that has been involved in many law suits against government bodies), Essentially the PCAOB performs investigations into audits, they force you to go and take them through your audit, looking at all of your working papers and everything. In the end the PCAOB has the right to state that you performed a substandard audit, and can bar you from performing any audits of public companies, so basically they can dictate whether you can exist or not. Arther Anderson was the first victim (rightfully so) of the PCAOB (the first thing the PCAOB and the SEC did)

The same way you can have only 2 teachers on the Texas State Board of EDUCATION

[shslb15]

The same way you can have only 2 teachers on the Texas State Board of EDUCATION

Silly government can't get anything right.... :rolleyes:

That has been a lot of people wanting the standards board for Auditing to go back to an independent board much like the AICPA or FASB (Financial Accounting Standards Board, the board that sets all of the accounting standards). I doubt they allow the Texas State Board of Education to go to an independent board, mainly because Teachers are government employees, essentially, Accountants aren't...

[mojotrain]

Hey! If I had a billion dollar manafacturing company(I don't) and I had a desire to move the total facility out of the country. Would I be able to just do it or would I need to apply for some type of US Goverment approval?

[shslb15]

Hey! If I had a billion dollar manafacturing company(I don't) and I had a desire to move the total facility out of the country. Would I be able to just do it or would I need to apply for some type of US Goverment approval?

It's your company, you should absolutely be able to leave the country....

[5ASports]

Hey! If I had a billion dollar manafacturing company(I don't) and I had a desire to move the total facility out of the country. Would I be able to just do it or would I need to apply for some type of US Goverment approval?
It depends on what you make, who you sell it to, etc...

[The King]

It is a possibility, but for any company that trades on the NYSE they have to have an audit in accordance to the PCAOB thus, they are forced to follow the rules that were put in place by SOX. There really is no escaping it except for no longer being a public company and just stick to being private. The costs of an audit now is ridiculous, mostly due to the costs for 404 and internal controls. I currently am working at a private company who does not require an audit of internal controls, which makes it a lot cheaper. They more than likely will remain this way.

The section 404 is the most contested part of SOX, most people agree that at the time it was a necessary bill but the costs are mounting. Most companies decide that it is better to remain private to avoid the additional audit fees (I know that this isn't a major factor, but when you audit fees just about double because of the additional costs, it has to be considered).

I don't feel that companies are shipping operations to other places because of additional audit fees, or the costs to implement the necessary internal controls.

I just looked up the IAASB (International Auditing and Assurance Standards Board) the international version of the PCAOB (which is a joke by the way). They also have implemented the same standard forcing companies to have their internal controls audited so there really isn't any differences.

A few fun facts about the PCAOB (section 101 of SOX put them in control over the AICPA, which is run by CPA's).. 1. Of the 5 board members only 2 CPA's can sit on the board. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A BOARD FOR ACCOUNTANTS AND ONLY HAVE 2 EXPERTS WHO HAVE THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATION AN ACCOUNTANT CAN HAVE. 2 All members selected by the SEC, so not selected by the president and not approved by the senate (the main aspect of the law suit against the PCAOB and how it is "unconstitutional") and finally 3 The main reason that this law firm (a highly conservative law firm that has been involved in many law suits against government bodies), Essentially the PCAOB performs investigations into audits, they force you to go and take them through your audit, looking at all of your working papers and everything. In the end the PCAOB has the right to state that you performed a substandard audit, and can bar you from performing any audits of public companies, so basically they can dictate whether you can exist or not. Arther Anderson was the first victim (rightfully so) of the PCAOB (the first thing the PCAOB and the SEC did)

So let me pose the question to yall, is the PCAOB constitutional (they lack any checks and balances from other branches, they are selected by the SEC who gives little insight and balances) and also does the PCAOB have the right to interfere with businesses and say "You did a bad job, so bad that you can no longer do business"?

(Sorry for the length, get me talking about accounting, which at my current job I don't do, I can go for a long time)

No I don't think this is constituional. I actually worked for a CPA for a while and then an investment company. I am working for a private corp now cause I got tired of the BS. Unfortunantly the Government is finding its way into my current work as we speak.

The thing that has always bothered me about this is that as an External Auditor the company can hide things from you, then you can be told that because they hid things from you that you did a poor job.

A good auditor will be able to spot the things the company trys to hide from them but even the best can be fooled once.

[The King]

In every major accounting fraud and collapse of a major company, it has always started and ended with management. The term "Top-Down Risk based audit" is because its the tone at the top that dictates how a firm is. If you go into an audit and management isn't willing to work with you or seems to be hiding things from you, you have to increase the amount of audit work you do because it is a more risky audit. I have met a lot of Andersen people still working in public accounting during spring recruiting this past spring. They are all unbelievably talented and very professional, they are that way because AA was the #1 firm, but like you said, it had a pretty crappy tone at the top.

Every scandal I have known about involved someone who thought that they would not get caught.

[shslb15]

Every scandal I have known about involved someone who thought that they would not get caught.

Accounting scandals all will be found over time. Any time you lie about your books, eventually it will catch up to you. You record a record amount of profits one year, the next year you will have to compensate for those misstated profits...

[shslb15]

No I don't think this is constituional. I actually worked for a CPA for a while and then an investment company. I am working for a private corp now cause I got tired of the BS. Unfortunantly the Government is finding its way into my current work as we speak.

The thing that has always bothered me about this is that as an External Auditor the company can hide things from you, then you can be told that because they hid things from you that you did a poor job.

A good auditor will be able to spot the things the company trys to hide from them but even the best can be fooled once.

The question was once asked in my audit class "Why not just give the company a qualified opinion for not giving complete disclosure of everything?" and my professor's answer was pretty much that it is really hard to give a qualified opinion especially since it can destroy a public company (For those who do not know, a qualified opinion is a bad thing and it means that the SEC pulls your right to trade on any stock market).. So most companies aren't about to mess that up because they didn't want their auditor to know more about them..

[E-Vol-ution]

No I don't think this is constituional. I actually worked for a CPA for a while and then an investment company. I am working for a private corp now cause I got tired of the BS. Unfortunantly the Government is finding its way into my current work as we speak.

The thing that has always bothered me about this is that as an External Auditor the company can hide things from you, then you can be told that because they hid things from you that you did a poor job.

A good auditor will be able to spot the things the company trys to hide from them but even the best can be fooled once.

Unfortunately......an audit by trained CPA's can miss a big spot here and there.
I worked for a publicly traded company once where the A/R girl reported to the National Sales Manager instead of me.
Total conflict of interest and breach of internal controls.
Most would never have asked the question assuming usual chain of command.
I've seen some questionable bank rec's also....and then there's the dreaded "variance".

[shslb15]

Unfortunately......an audit by trained CPA's can miss a big spot here and there.
I worked for a publicly traded company once where the A/R girl reported to the National Sales Manager instead of me.
Total conflict of interest and breach of internal controls.
Most would never have asked the question assuming usual chain of command.
I've seen some questionable bank rec's also....and then there's the dreaded "variance".

That really should be caught 10 out of 10 times. A/R is one of more common misstated accounts and when ever anyone reports directly to a Sales Manager it immediately should be a red flag to an auditor... SHEESH!!

I like how this thread went from talking about polls on a website to different aspects of accounting and auditing....:yes:

[E-Vol-ution]

That really should be caught 10 out of 10 times. A/R is one of more common misstated accounts and when ever anyone reports directly to a Sales Manager it immediately should be a red flag to an auditor... SHEESH!!

I like how this thread went from talking about polls on a website to different aspects of accounting and auditing....:yes:

I really don't know that anything outside of the overkill which is SOX would have caught that. (all that documenting of actions)
In over twenty years I never had that direct quetion asked......it was always assumed. (I left that company when the A/R girl was directed to not charge sales tax or the customer wouldn't make the 460k purchase).
Another slick move used to be removing a pending sale from the premises by the last day of the year so it isn't included in inventory.