And nobody will get in trouble for this...

[CoveMom]

Arggghhhhh!!!!!


I know it is not a crime for the journalist who wrote the article or the paper that published it, but dammit. We have to find a way to get to the person who leaked this kind of crap.


(she steps carefully down from soapbox)



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world/25military.html?hp


First part of article (highlights entirely mine):


WASHINGTON — The top American commander in the Middle East has ordered a broad expansion of clandestine military activity in an effort to disrupt militant groups or counter threats in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and other countries in the region, according to defense officials and military documents.

The secret directive, signed in September by Gen. David H. Petraeus, authorizes the sending of American Special Operations troops to both friendly and hostile nations in the Middle East, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa to gather intelligence and build ties with local forces. Officials said the order also permits reconnaissance that could pave the way for possible military strikes in Iran if tensions over its nuclear ambitions escalate.


Apparently the words clandestine, secret and covert (used in article title) have changed meaning since I had a Security Clearance. The ban on me speaking of what I knew then will expire a few decades after the end of my expected life expectancy.

[drgnbkr]

Arggghhhhh!!!!!


I know it is not a crime for the journalist who wrote the article or the paper that published it, but dammit. We have to find a way to get to the person who leaked this kind of crap.


(she steps carefully down from soapbox)



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world/25military.html?hp


First part of article (highlights entirely mine):


WASHINGTON — The top American commander in the Middle East has ordered a broad expansion of clandestine military activity in an effort to disrupt militant groups or counter threats in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and other countries in the region, according to defense officials and military documents.

The secret directive, signed in September by Gen. David H. Petraeus, authorizes the sending of American Special Operations troops to both friendly and hostile nations in the Middle East, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa to gather intelligence and build ties with local forces. Officials said the order also permits reconnaissance that could pave the way for possible military strikes in Iran if tensions over its nuclear ambitions escalate.


Apparently the words clandestine, secret and covert (used in article title) have changed meaning since I had a Security Clearance. The ban on me speaking of what I knew then will expire a few decades after the end of my expected life expectancy.

It's the NY Times...They are pissing their legacy away, and thier circulation along with it.

[DrEdward]

It's the NY Times...They are pissing their legacy away, and thier circulation along with it.

Screw the NY Times and the idiot who wrote this. I am much more concerned about putting US forces in some extra degree of danger so some jerks in New York can think of themselves as investigative reporters and the monitor/arbiter of the US military. Such items are necessarily secret for a resaon. If you feel like reporting on our special forces, SEALs, activities, do so after the fact; not while they might be in the field on an operation.

[ktCarl]

These constant military adventures are going to break this country's back. :mad:

[JagFan]

Arggghhhhh!!!!!


I know it is not a crime for the journalist who wrote the article or the paper that published it, but dammit. We have to find a way to get to the person who leaked this kind of crap.


(she steps carefully down from soapbox)



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world/25military.html?hp


First part of article (highlights entirely mine):


WASHINGTON — The top American commander in the Middle East has ordered a broad expansion of clandestine military activity in an effort to disrupt militant groups or counter threats in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and other countries in the region, according to defense officials and military documents.

The secret directive, signed in September by Gen. David H. Petraeus, authorizes the sending of American Special Operations troops to both friendly and hostile nations in the Middle East, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa to gather intelligence and build ties with local forces. Officials said the order also permits reconnaissance that could pave the way for possible military strikes in Iran if tensions over its nuclear ambitions escalate.


Apparently the words clandestine, secret and covert (used in article title) have changed meaning since I had a Security Clearance. The ban on me speaking of what I knew then will expire a few decades after the end of my expected life expectancy.

The meanings have not changed. The people that are trusted with them have.

Why this is news baffles me. The fact that we have special ops spread out doing reconnaissance should be no big surprise to anyone.

[Firebird]

Leaks to the press didn't ever happen when CoveMom had a security clearance. Fact. This is so totally new and unprecedented. I just can't believe it happens nowadays.

[CoveMom]

Leaks to the press didn't ever happen when CoveMom had a security clearance. Fact. This is so totally new and unprecedented. I just can't believe it happens nowadays.

You know what? I give up.

Let's get a do-over for D-Day. It would have been so much more fair if we had let Herr Hitler know where and when the invasion was going to be.

OF COURSE there were security leaks when I held security clearances and compartmentalized access to programs of importance to the National Security. I never implied otherwise. Thanks so much for letting us all know that this stuff doesn't matter to you. Try to imagine opening up the latest issue of Time Magazine and seeing a huge cover story about a program which, should you discuss same with your neighbor, could land you in prison for a long long time. That has happened to me. I am sensitive to this. That ******* also did not get in trouble but I railed about it then as I do now. I railed about this crap under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. Equal opportunity when it comes to our security.

Just because you think I am as dumb as a box of rocks does not make it true. If your purpose in posting this was to get under my skin, you succeeded. Ain't you just so proud?

[rwilleby]

I am quite sure CoveMom didn't give up any top secret info... and she's right... the pubs and people giving this up are not patriots of America or our servicemen/women... I'll just make a note of the publications and add them to my list of things to avoid...

[slcdragonfan]

You know what? I give up.

Let's get a do-over for D-Day. It would have been so much more fair if we had let Herr Hitler know where and when the invasion was going to be.

OF COURSE there were security leaks when I held security clearances and compartmentalized access to programs of importance to the National Security. I never implied otherwise. Thanks so much for letting us all know that this stuff doesn't matter to you. Try to imagine opening up the latest issue of Time Magazine and seeing a huge cover story about a program which, should you discuss same with your neighbor, could land you in prison for a long long time. That has happened to me. I am sensitive to this. That ******* also did not get in trouble but I railed about it then as I do now. I railed about this crap under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. Equal opportunity when it comes to our security.

Just because you think I am a dumb as a box of rocks does not make it true. If your purpose in posting this was to get under my skin, you succeeded. Ain't you just so proud?

In fact we did. But of course it was a misdirection, one of the biggest hoaxes ever. see Operation Fortitude. :)
Just an aside. Please carry on....

[Fleeman93]

I may be wrong but what I think Firebird was probably saying is that this information was leaked to the press on purpose, for whatever reason, by the military. Am I wrong Firebird.

[cougmantx]

There was a time in American journalism where we didn't report on personal lives of public officials or people we held with some esteem and where governmental or military secrets were just that, but in this day of gottca journalism it's no holds barred. Sad, having had a Top Secret clearance and knowing the sensitivity of material I was working with I understand how very dangerous this can be to our men and women in uniform.

Of course someone had to leak it and that is where we need to begin. If they had orders from above then we need to know why. Then again, a V.P. outing a covert, C.I.A. agent is fine and defendable by many in this country. Guess we just don't know the whole story as to why this was leaked.

[Dawg Fan]

Leaks to the press didn't ever happen when CoveMom had a security clearance. Fact. This is so totally new and unprecedented. I just can't believe it happens nowadays.

nice first post, welcome to the forum

[dragonpants]

Leaks to the press didn't ever happen when CoveMom had a security clearance. Fact. This is so totally new and unprecedented. I just can't believe it happens nowadays.

You might feel differently if you have a friend or relative or were a member of one of these elite military groups. Just sayin.

[pied]

I know Firebird would be the last guy I would ask about how the government/army gets info out.

[Firebird]

You know what? I give up.

Let's get a do-over for D-Day. It would have been so much more fair if we had let Herr Hitler know where and when the invasion was going to be.

OF COURSE there were security leaks when I held security clearances and compartmentalized access to programs of importance to the National Security. I never implied otherwise. Thanks so much for letting us all know that this stuff doesn't matter to you. Try to imagine opening up the latest issue of Time Magazine and seeing a huge cover story about a program which, should you discuss same with your neighbor, could land you in prison for a long long time. That has happened to me. I am sensitive to this. That ******* also did not get in trouble but I railed about it then as I do now. I railed about this crap under Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. Equal opportunity when it comes to our security.

Just because you think I am as dumb as a box of rocks does not make it true. If your purpose in posting this was to get under my skin, you succeeded. Ain't you just so proud?

Leaks are a serious problem. No one said otherwise. The main issue I had with your post is that it seems to suggest that this is a brand new problem that would have NEVER happened back in your day:

Apparently the words clandestine, secret and covert (used in article title) have changed meaning since I had a Security Clearance.

That's demonstrably false. I'd also say it's a giant leap to suggest that no one will get in trouble.

[dragonsdaddy]

It's the NY Times...They are pissing their legacy away, and thier circulation along with it.
they still have a very high quality crossword trouble.

[twcpfan1]

Some of you still go and get hard copy newspapers?

[CoveMom]

Leaks are a serious problem. No one said otherwise. The main issue I had with your post is that it seems to suggest that this is a brand new problem that would have NEVER happened back in your day:

That's demonstrably false. I'd also say it's a giant leap to suggest that no one will get in trouble.

Where you got the idea that I thought this was brand new is beyond me.

This subject has come up on the board before. My position is/was clear. I have been personally affected by this kind of thing (but not put in harm's way) and I have had a problem with it FOR YEARS. And I did make it clear that like you, I suspect, I support the premise that the reporter and the NYT are not prosecutable for the leak. You prints what you gets. Should they have? I would say no. That's why my young idealistic self decided NOT to be a journalist after all. I would not have made it in that world.

Sorry. I will annotate all future posts regarding National Security and my experiences with same.

CM

[DrEdward]

Where you got the idea that I thought this was brand new is beyond me.

This subject has come up on the board before. My position is/was clear. I have been personally affected by this kind of thing (but not put in harm's way) and I have had a problem with it FOR YEARS. And I did make it clear that like you, I suspect, I support the premise that the reporter and the NYT are not prosecutable for the leak. You prints what you gets. Should they have? I would say no. That's why my young idealistic self decided NOT to be a journalist after all. I would not have made it in that world.

Sorry. I will annotate all future posts regarding National Security and my experiences with same.

CM

I thought your point was clear: there was decidedly a time in the United States when the editors of major newpapers would at least exercise some degree of discretion in publishing such information. For a large number, that time of exercising some degree of responsibility has passed. :( They may try to justify it, but to do so should it place American lives in unnecessary jeopardy is inexcusable to me.

[mad_fan]

Leaks to the press didn't ever happen when CoveMom had a security clearance. Fact. This is so totally new and unprecedented. I just can't believe it happens nowadays.

Just when I think you can't out idiot yourself...you manage...

[mad_fan]

You know what? I give up.



Don't do that...Darwin will take care of him in time...

[mad_fan]

Where you got the idea that I thought this was brand new is beyond me.

This subject has come up on the board before. My position is/was clear. I have been personally affected by this kind of thing (but not put in harm's way) and I have had a problem with it FOR YEARS. And I did make it clear that like you, I suspect, I support the premise that the reporter and the NYT are not prosecutable for the leak. You prints what you gets. Should they have? I would say no. That's why my young idealistic self decided NOT to be a journalist after all. I would not have made it in that world.

Sorry. I will annotate all future posts regarding National Security and my experiences with same.

CM


I should probably review your posts before release...

mad_fad...
TS-SCI (DOD)...
TS-CNWDI (DOE)...

[Firebird]

Where you got the idea that I thought this was brand new is beyond me.
This subject has come up on the board before. My position is/was clear. I have been personally affected by this kind of thing (but not put in harm's way) and I have had a problem with it FOR YEARS. And I did make it clear that like you, I suspect, I support the premise that the reporter and the NYT are not prosecutable for the leak. You prints what you gets. Should they have? I would say no. That's why my young idealistic self decided NOT to be a journalist after all. I would not have made it in that world.

Sorry. I will annotate all future posts regarding National Security and my experiences with same.

CM
The meanings have not changed. The people that are trusted with them have

Hmmmmmm......

[twcpfan1]

The meanings have not changed. The people that are trusted with them have.

Why this is news baffles me. The fact that we have special ops spread out doing reconnaissance should be no big surprise to anyone.

Yep exactly. For a minute there, I thought I might have missed something.

I don't think the article divulged anything that the enemies of the USA do not already know or expect. Having US personnel secretly gathering intelligence in these areas is about as predictable as mad_fan playing knight in shining armor to cove_mom everytime she starts crying, as so visibly demonstrated here. :D


Just messin MF and CM.... We all consider you our resident Joanie and Chachi.. :)

[JagFan]

Hmmmmmm......

So then quote me. :rolleyes:

There was a time as several have pointed out that the press would never have printed or announced such things. And when the people that leaked such things were actually prosocuted. Not so much anymore.

[JagFan]

Yep exactly. For a minute there, I thought I might have missed something.

The article did not divulge anything that the enemies of the USA do not already know or expect. Having US personnel secretly gathering intelligence in these areas is about as predictable as mad_fan playing knight in shining armor to cove_mom everytime she starts crying, as so visibly demonstrated here. :D


Just messin.... We all consider you our resident Joanie and Chachi.. :)

It is one thing to think ya we probably have people in all sorts of places. It's another to have it confirmed in news print that it is not only happening but in a top security kind of way.

And FYI- Cove Mom does a pretty damn good job defending herself and stating her opinions. The fact that Mad agrees with her and calls people out is secondary.

[Firebird]

So then quote me. :rolleyes:

There was a time as several have pointed out that the press would never have printed or announced such things. And when the people that leaked such things were actually prosocuted. Not so much anymore.

I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that people who leak information are still aggressively hunted and prosecuted. You can believe me or not.

[JagFan]

Yep exactly. For a minute there, I thought I might have missed something.

I don't think the article divulged anything that the enemies of the USA do not already know or expect. Having US personnel secretly gathering intelligence in these areas is about as predictable as mad_fan playing knight in shining armor to cove_mom everytime she starts crying, as so visibly demonstrated here. :D


Just messin.... We all consider you our resident Joanie and Chachi.. :)

And why are your quoting me when you are talking about Mad and CoveMom?

[twcpfan1]

And why are your quoting me when you are talking about Mad and CoveMom?

my bad. I meant CM and MF are. I think most people got it figured out though. I will edit just the same.

[mad_fan]

Yep exactly. For a minute there, I thought I might have missed something.

The article did not divulge anything that the enemies of the USA do not already know or expect. Having US personnel secretly gathering intelligence in these areas is about as predictable as mad_fan playing knight in shining armor to cove_mom everytime she starts crying, as so visibly demonstrated here. :D


Just messin.... We all consider you our resident Joanie and Chachi.. :)

Are you from the NY Times???
Please...support EVERYTIME in that sentence...
I happen to agree with CMs original post...without reading into it...
As someone that was around plenty of secrets in my day...I can tell you that the press was more discrete in my day...

[mad_fan]

my bad. I meant CM and MF are. I think most people got it figured out though. I will edit just the same.

Well...I guess you aren't from the NY Times...:rolleyes:

[JagFan]

I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that people who leak information are still aggressively hunted and prosecuted. You can believe me or not.

I know very well what can happen. It just seems that this kind of thing is not that big of a deal to people anymore. It is to me and obliviously to CoveMom. Maybe it is just the public perception. To me people that leak are beneath pond scum and should be shown to be the traitor they are. Not only the leaker but the reporter that prints it. I know you can't prosecute the press but I can hope they suffer from strange virus.

[mad_fan]

I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that people who leak information are still aggressively hunted and prosecuted. You can believe me or not.

I don't believe it...
I believe pulling out is the objective...hence all the timetables...
But you can have your source join the board and explain it all to us...we won't tell the NY Times...
FB = TS-Obamathon Clearance???

[mad_fan]

I know very well what can happen. It just seems that this kind of thing is not that big of a deal to people anymore. It is to me and obliviously to CoveMom. Maybe it is just the public perception. To me people that leak are beneath pond scum and should be shown to be the traitor they are. Not only the leaker but the reporter that prints it. I know you can't prosecute the press but I can hope they suffer from strange virus.

His post read like he knows something that even the NY Times doesn't know...
I'm debating prying for more info and sending a link to the CIA...

[twcpfan1]

It is one thing to think ya we probably have people in all sorts of places. It's another to have it confirmed in news print that it is not only happening but in a top security kind of way.

And FYI- Cove Mom does a pretty damn good job defending herself and stating her opinions. The fact that Mad agrees with her and calls people out is secondary.

Sure. But how impactful is an article confirming what you would think, everybody already knows or expects?


You old people really stick together dont you :D

[twcpfan1]

Are you from the NY Times???
Please...support EVERYTIME in that sentence...
I happen to agree with CMs original post...without reading into it...
As someone that was around plenty of secrets in my day...I can tell you that the press was more discrete in my day...


They may have been more prudent. More discreet? There's a difference, but hey. If you say so...

As for that other thing with CM, I was just messin. Chill .. :)

[JagFan]

Sure. But how impactful is an article confirming what you would think, everybody already knows or expects?


You old people really stick together dont you :D

If thinking people that leak things that are classified are crimminals as well as the reporters that print it then ya I guess we do. :)

[JagFan]

His post read like he knows something that even the NY Times doesn't know...
I'm debating prying for more info and sending a link to the CIA...

He won't tell now.

[mad_fan]

If thinking people that leak things that are classified are crimminals as well as the reporters that print it then ya I guess we do. :)

I guess we were thinking about back in the days when laws were enforced...
Now we can't even define IS...
It's all change and progress...

[JagFan]

I guess we were thinking about back in the days when laws were enforced...
Now we can't even define IS...
It's all change and progress...

And hope.

[twcpfan1]

If thinking people that leak things that are classified are crimminals as well as the reporters that print it then ya I guess we do. :)

I agree too.

Here's the thing though. From reading that article again (and I stress just that article), I'm still not sure anything in it classifies as a possible 'leak'.

[JMSFan]

And hope.

And Bush's fault. :D

[mad_fan]

They may have been more prudent. More discreet? There's a difference, but hey. If you say so...

As for that other thing with CM, I was just messin. Chill .. :)

You tell me to Chill a lot...and I'm just replying to you...
So...I'm still Chilly...
And you still don't reply when I call you on a post like that...
I'd recommend using a :rolleyes: or a ;) somewhere...
;)

[twcpfan1]

You tell me to Chill a lot...and I'm just replying to you...
So...I'm still Chilly...
And you still don't reply when I call you on a post like that...
I'd recommend using a :rolleyes: or a ;) somewhere...
;)

I thought I used a :D and a :)

[mad_fan]

And hope.

True...
We can't leave out lying to the jury and the stained blue dress...
Some of the best of Hope...

[mad_fan]

And Bush's fault. :D

The 'Bush fault era' keeps extending further back nto the Clinton Administration and further into the Obama Administration...

[Firebird]

I agree too.

Here's the thing though. From reading that article again (and I stress just that article), I'm still not sure anything in it classifies as a possible 'leak'.

It did claim that the NYT viewed a classified document. It's a bit ambigous what level it was classified at...the article claimed the directive was "secret", but it's unclear whether that means it was classified "secret" or if the NYT is using the word stylistically.

Leaks are damaging and they are criminal. People are still prosecuted for them. There's a trial for an NSA official who leaked going on right now. Have the people "changed"?" I don't think so, really (cough...Pentagon Papers...cough) The treaty that concluded the Mexican American War was leaked and published, too......but then again, I don't know as much as Cove_Mom and mad_fan.....

[mad_fan]

I thought I used a :D and a :)

You aren't doing it right...
But I don't expect you to see that...;)

[mad_fan]

It did claim that the NYT viewed a classified document. It's a bit ambigous what level it was classified at...the article claimed the directive was "secret", but it's unclear whether that means it was classified "secret" or if the NYT is using the word stylistically.

Leaks are damaging and they are criminal. People are still prosecuted for them. There's a trial for an NSA official who leaked going on right now. Have the people "changed"?" I don't think so, really (cough...Pentagon Papers...cough) The treaty that concluded the Mexican American War was leaked and published, too......but then again, I don't know as much as Cove_Mom and mad_fan.....

Read all the posts...I think you know a lot more than me...so do tell...who'd that story come from??? What's your current position??? Can you view this message board from work??? Can you chat??? Get on /b??? Do you have an e-mail we can talk on that doesn't end in .gov??? Are you a contractor??? Did you evar kill anyone???

[Firebird]

Read all the posts...I think you know a lot more than me...so do tell...who'd that story come from??? What's your current position??? Can you view this message board from work??? Can you chat??? Get on /b??? Do you have an e-mail we can talk on that doesn't end in .gov??? Are you a contractor??? Did you evar kill anyone???

Professional googler.....

[mad_fan]

Professional googler.....

Always looking for good Soviet stock tips...keep me in mind...

[Firebird]

I don't believe it...
I believe pulling out is the objective...hence all the timetables...
But you can have your source join the board and explain it all to us...we won't tell the NY Times...
FB = TS-Obamathon Clearance???

The source IS the NYT...google "leak prosecution...":)

[mad_fan]

The source IS the NYT...google "leak prosecution...":)

You are failing the 'believe me or not' post...

[Firebird]

Always looking for good Soviet stock tips...keep me in mind...


I'm bullish on Naftohaz Ukrainiy....

[mad_fan]

I'm bullish on Naftohaz Ukrainiy....

I've got too much Canadian natural gas...
Which sounds funny when I actually say it...

So all your 'knowledge' comes from google??? What if the info is misinformation???

[Firebird]

I've got too much Canadian natural gas...
Which sounds funny when I actually say it...

So all your 'knowledge' comes from google??? What if the info is misinformation???

Sometimes AltaVista. Old habit from Internet 1.0.

[mad_fan]

Sometimes AltaVista. Old habit from Internet 1.0.

So...you should show the CIA how to do it...because you always know everything (correctly)...and the CIA seems to miss a lot...
Or do they just let some stuff go because only a few lives are on the line???