Most IMPRESSIVE dynasty

[Firebird]

First of all, some definitions are in order. By "impressive" I don't mean simply "best." What I mean is, what Texas high school football dynasty is most worthy of sheer admiration, at the determination and guts of the people who built it. In this category, overcoming odds gets you more points than sheer talent. Here are my contenders:

Converse Judson: The best 5A program ever and a Texas legend.
Katy: Multiple state titles, they won through hard work and grit, not by having the most talented teams.
SLC: You have to respect what they have done, especially by going from 3a-4a-5a without missing a beat.

These 4 deserve their props but my winner is: Odessa Permian.

Why Permian-- How many of you have been to Odessa? Odessa is and always was a TOUGH, TOUGH town. During boom times, when oil was flowing and prices were high, Odessa had the highest murder rate in the country, worse than Miami at the height of the Miami gang wars. At a time when all of West Texas was inhabited by tee-totalling Baptists and Church of Christ folks, Odessa was "Sin City" and Ector county was the only wet county for miles around. In the little SWC, Abilene was known for fine, upstanding Christians, Midland was where the bosses and bankers out in the oil patch lived, Odessa was for the roughnecks. The rest of the state had the opinion that there was NOTHING good in Odessa, unless you liked rowdy bars and bawdy houses.

Except the Permian Panthers. The Panthers built a dynasty with scruffy, undersized kids from Odessa, a town famous for being bad. They did it without the talent of the big city schools, Odessa, like Katy today, was never a recruiting hotbed. They did it because the folks there had a single minded determination to build the best damn football program in the state, and they did. Ocassionally, they took the obsession to far. The dynasties that followed Permian copied their blueprint. Nevertheless, Odessa Permian remains the most unlikely dynasty of Texas HS football, and my winner.

By the way, for any Odessa folks on the board, my description of Odessa is not an accurate description of MY PERSONAL feelings, but rather the feelings of the state in general. Three of the four people I love most in the world are from Odessa, and I know that most of the folks out there are decent, hardworking folks. Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.

[Slim-Rob]

First of all, some definitions are in order. By "impressive" I don't mean simply "best." What I mean is, what Texas high school football dynasty is most worthy of sheer admiration, at the determination and guts of the people who built it. In this category, overcoming odds gets you more points than sheer talent. Here are my contenders:

Converse Judson: The best 5A program ever and a Texas legend.
Katy: Multiple state titles, they won through hard work and grit, not by having the most talented teams.
SLC: You have to respect what they have done, especially by going from 3a-4a-5a without missing a beat.

These 4 deserve their props but my winner is: Odessa Permian.

Why Permian-- How many of you have been to Odessa? Odessa is and always was a TOUGH, TOUGH town. During boom times, when oil was flowing and prices were high, Odessa had the highest murder rate in the country, worse than Miami at the height of the Miami gang wars. At a time when all of West Texas was inhabited by tee-totalling Baptists and Church of Christ folks, Odessa was "Sin City" and Ector county was the only wet county for miles around. In the little SWC, Abilene was known for fine, upstanding Christians, Midland was where the bosses and bankers out in the oil patch lived, Odessa was for the roughnecks. The rest of the state had the opinion that there was NOTHING good in Odessa, unless you liked rowdy bars and bawdy houses.

Except the Permian Panthers. The Panthers built a dynasty with scruffy, undersized kids from Odessa, a town famous for being bad. They did it without the talent of the big city schools, Odessa, like Katy today, was never a recruiting hotbed. They did it because the folks there had a single minded determination to build the best damn football program in the state, and they did. Ocassionally, they took the obsession to far. The dynasties that followed Permian copied their blueprint. Nevertheless, Odessa Permian remains the most unlikely dynasty of Texas HS football, and my winner.

By the way, for any Odessa folks on the board, my description of Odessa is not an accurate description of MY PERSONAL feelings, but rather the feelings of the state in general. Three of the four people I love most in the world are from Odessa, and I know that most of the folks out there are decent, hardworking folks. Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.

I'm gonna go with Judson as the better dynasty for 1 reason: 31-28 Judson

Then again, Judson has never been a "hotbed" for recruiting either so its a pretty close matchup over all

[Shoot2thrill]

I'm gonna go with Judson as the better dynasty for 1 reason: 31-28 Judson

Then again, Judson has never been a "hotbed" for recruiting either so its a pretty close matchup over all

There's a non-homer pick if I ever saw one. ;)

[stevefoxsc]

i believe alot of schools are left out, minus the state titals other teams the need to have recognition lufkin long view tyler lee smithson valley. But I think no matter where you go or hear odessa is probably one of the most talked about programs due to such rich history.

[ALLIN]

For SLC to do what they have done, amongst the talent that is out there, is the most impressive. The run is not over yet either.

[KT2000]

Judson is the clear flagship program of Class 5A in my opinion. Katy and Southlake Carroll follow after that. Carroll is obviously the current most recognized program in the state. Permian is definitely up there with those three.

I'd rate Permian and Katy as equals in the dynasty category. The have near equal state championships (in 5A) and playoff wins. In fact, Katy may have passed Permian by one playoff win last season.

Overall, I think Southlake Carroll is the best program in the state because of their success on each level through their growth. They are very similar to Westlake in that regard, except the Chaps only have one championship.

As far as other classes go...La Marque is also one of the best. They went to six state championship games in a row in the 90s, and also have a championship in this decade. Sealy and Celina are obvious choices. Stephenville.

[Mhs06]

Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.

As they say, raise a family in Midland, raise hell in Odessa :D

[Drake]

Some not being mentioned:

Waco - 9 state championship appearances, 6 wins, 1 tie.
Abilene - 8 appearances, 5 wins.


Most impressive:

Odessa Permian - 11 appearances (since 1950) 6 wins, 1 tie.

[mojo61]

By the way, for any Odessa folks on the board, my description of Odessa is not an accurate description of MY PERSONAL feelings, but rather the feelings of the state in general. Three of the four people I love most in the world are from Odessa, and I know that most of the folks out there are decent, hardworking folks. Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.

Firebird, your description of the state's perception of the town of Odessa is accurate, but I grew up there, & Odessa is made up, as you say, of many decent, hard-working people. I've also lived in San Angelo, & Abilene, & worked in Midland. All of those towns, including Odessa, have mostly decent people living there. But appearance is everything, in business or whatever you name, & Odessa certainly has the image that you describe.

Odessa was a great town to grow up in despite whatever people in the rest of the state may think about the place. You can mention "Odessa" & "Permian" all over the nation & the world, & most sports fans will know what & who you're talking about (as some poster has written recently) w/o any further explanation--that's a pretty good dynasty. The bk. & the movie were distortions in many ways; after all, bad news sells better than good news. But maybe I "can't see the forest because of the trees," having grown up there.

[KattTx]

hehehe.... I am an OHS grad (for those of you outside west Texas that's the other high school in Odessa) and I love my city's athletes. I have a son at Permian and yell as loud for both schools. I really have a tough time of it when they play each other, but I manage. As far as "Dynasty", IMO there is no comparison to Permian. Of course, I take dynasty to mean a legendary team that had not only a tangible success or reputation but also posessed an indescribable mystique that couldn't be explained, only experienced. (And for a lot of years I hated Permian, but couldn't deny they were special)

As for Odessa on a whole, I was born and raised here and lived here for 35 years. The perception Odessa has is obviously as accurate as our perceptions of cities we don't live in. IF you are to believe perceptions of other places...Houston is a dirty, crime infested, overrated, mess of humanity... I personally don't feel that way, I have spent many a day in Houston and realize (just like everywhere else) there are nice parts and not so nice parts. On the whole, Odessa is a great place to live. Our homes and businesses aren't taxed or resticted out the yang. You can make it from one end of town to the other in less than an hour. You can stand in line and visit with the person next to you and not have them look at you like you are stalking them. (I do this all the time to the great embarassment of my son) :D The city has had it's growing pains, they are just a little more recent than the beginnings of Dallas, Houston, SA, etc.. All in all it's a great place to drop your hat.

[Eagle81]

Some not being mentioned:

Waco - 9 state championship appearances, 6 wins, 1 tie.
Abilene - 8 appearances, 5 wins.


Most impressive:

Odessa Permian - 11 appearances (since 1950) 6 wins, 1 tie.

Abilene has 6 state championships and the longest winning streak at the highest classification.

[ALLIN]

Abilene has 6 state championships and the longest winning streak at the highest classification.

?? What is the winning streak?

[dragonsdaddy]

?? What is the winning streak?
48 i believe.

i've got to go with coju as they have been the most successful in 5a. both coju and operm have had some leisurely trips to the semis what with the ep/panhandle schools, and the south of sa schools, but coju has hit the most dingers since 80, when the 5a counting began. slc's 5a record, while one of a kind and unlikely to ever be matched, is too short -lived to be a dynasty yet. if we are having this discussion in the teens and similar results have been put up by the dragons, then i'll assume most will go over to them, unless coju does the same thing, or operm or plano catch fire again.

[Firebird]

Some more stats to back up Permian--

The Panthers won their first state title in 1965, and last appeared in a Texas Bowl in 1995. Over that thirty year span, they won two Mythical National Championships, won 6 state titles, and appeared in an astonishing 12 state title games. In other words, over thirty years, they were in the state title game just under half of those. No one can match that longevity.

I don't think its fair to hold it against them that they were not in "5a" during much of the dynasty years. 5a had not been created at the time, but Permian always played in the largest and most competitive classification, the equivalent of today's 5a. At no time was Permian ever competeing in a lower level classification.

Another fact to consider-- Permian's run of success was mostly BEFORE the system of "Divisional" (big 5a/little 5a)champions. Most of their titles were won when only ONE state champ was crowned in 5a (or 4a), thereby ensuring that the state champ was indeed the best team in the classification. Since 1990, 5a has not crowned a true state champion, leaving room to quibble.

[McC Insider]

Some more stats to back up Permian--

The Panthers won their first state title in 1965, and last appeared in a Texas Bowl in 1995. Over that thirty year span, they won two Mythical National Championships, won 6 state titles, and appeared in an astonishing 12 state title games. In other words, over thirty years, they were in the state title game just under half of those. No one can match that longevity.

I don't think its fair to hold it against them that they were not in "5a" during much of the dynasty years. 5a had not been created at the time, but Permian always played in the largest and most competitive classification, the equivalent of today's 5a. At no time was Permian ever competeing in a lower level classification.

Another fact to consider-- Permian's run of success was mostly BEFORE the system of "Divisional" (big 5a/little 5a)champions. Most of their titles were won when only ONE state champ was crowned in 5a (or 4a), thereby ensuring that the state champ was indeed the best team in the classification. Since 1990, 5a has not crowned a true state champion, leaving room to quibble.


Nicely put Firebird. Today's game as followed right in step with our feel good society. Everyone makes the playoffs, everyone feels good and coaches keep their jobs. It will be a sad day in November when 2-8 is seen as a playoff contender. When Permian was king they had to fight just to make the playoffs. No telling how many teams would have decade-long playoff streaks if the rules were the same back then.

[South Texas]

This is from another site
Plano Senior High School

- Won a title in 2,3,4,5A(Only Texas team to do that.)
- Seven State Championships
- 646 Total Victories
- 25 10-Win Seasons
- Most Consecutive Winning Seasons in Texas history - 36
- #5 Winning Percentage - .7025 – 636-256-46
- 29 Consecutive Victories
- 47 Consecutive District Victories
- 33 District Championships
- 42 Playoff Appearances
- 77 Playoff Victories
- 32 Playoff Appearances since 1951
- National Record for High School Football attendance – 49,000 vs Port Neches-Groves
- 1987 National Championship Team
Playoff Apperances (42 - MOST IN TEXAS HISTORY) 1934,35,36,39,40,46,47,51,61,64,65,66,67,68,70,71, 72,73,74,75,77,78,79,80,82,83,

84,86,87,88,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,98,99,2000,01,05

[Drake]

Nicely put Firebird. Today's game as followed right in step with our feel good society. Everyone makes the playoffs, everyone feels good and coaches keep their jobs. It will be a sad day in November when 2-8 is seen as a playoff contender. When Permian was king they had to fight just to make the playoffs. No telling how many teams would have decade-long playoff streaks if the rules were the same back then.I still don't see the issue with a sub-.500 team making the playoffs, or even a 2-8 team... If the top 4 teams make the playoffs then won't the 2-8 team still have to have one of the four best district records? I'm with you that it's bad, after all, everyone is saying it is... I just want someone to tell me why?

[South Texas]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That is why 4 teams will advance

[McC Insider]

I still don't see the issue with a sub-.500 team making the playoffs, or even a 2-8 team... If the top 4 teams make the playoffs then won't the 2-8 team still have to have one of the four best district records? I'm with you that it's bad, after all, everyone is saying it is... I just want someone to tell me why?

It's not a bad thing for the students and the players and the fans. If they are still around after loosing 8 games. The problem is it waters down the competition. We haven't had a true state champion since 1990. But they all get rings, even some of the losers.

[raidercheerdad]

Judson is the clear flagship program of Class 5A in my opinion. Katy and Southlake Carroll follow after that. Carroll is obviously the current most recognized program in the state. Permian is definitely up there with those three.

I'd rate Permian and Katy as equals in the dynasty category. The have near equal state championships (in 5A) and playoff wins. In fact, Katy may have passed Permian by one playoff win last season.

Overall, I think Southlake Carroll is the best program in the state because of their success on each level through their growth. They are very similar to Westlake in that regard, except the Chaps only have one championship.

As far as other classes go...La Marque is also one of the best. They went to six state championship games in a row in the 90s, and also have a championship in this decade. Sealy and Celina are obvious choices. Stephenville.


As did Sonora in the late 60's and early 70's.

[South Texas]

It's not a bad thing for the students and the players and the fans. If they are still around after loosing 8 games. The problem is it waters down the competition. We haven't had a true state champion since 1990. But they all get rings, even some of the losers.
What was the school that bought 2nd place rings?

[McC Insider]

What was the school that bought 2nd place rings?

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it THE WOODLANDS. But, everyone is second compared to that North Shore team.

[RPM]

im gonna have to go with Permian..but SLC is not far behind IMO...what they have done has been impressive..and like someone said its not over yet..

Can Permian go back and defend there tradition is my question..

[South Texas]

im gonna have to go with Permian..but SLC is not far behind IMO...what they have done has been impressive..and like someone said its not over yet..

Can Permian go back and defend there tradition is my question..

Remember a few years of success can't beat Decades of Dominance

[RPM]

yea thats true......

its just that you hear about them so much..it be wierd when the day came that another team takes there place...should be a history moment in football..

[Drake]

I think "Friday Night Lights" (the book) made Odessa re-exam its' priorities... I wonder if they'll ever be as strong as they once were or if they even WANT to be as strong if it means reverting to the mindset they used to have...

[South Texas]

MOST WINS (ALL-TIME)

Amarillo 676
Temple 667
Plano 665
Highland Park 658
Corsicana 621
Brownwood 620
Wichita Falls 609
John Tyler 591
Port Arthur Jefferson 588
Sweetwater 583
Garland 577
Lufkin 576
Longview 567

[badger95]

What was the school that bought 2nd place rings?

I know a lot of schools that get silver State Finalist rings. Even the Seahawks will have NFC championship ring.

[South Texas]

Difference is those are adults playing the NFL. But how many of them wears them. Hey look I'm a second place loser

[RedRage00]

Slc

[Slim-Rob]

There's a non-homer pick if I ever saw one. ;)

I'm not allowed to say Judson is the most impressive because I root for them? I explained why I thought Judson was a better one than Permian and that reason is 31-28. And if you don't understand what I mean by that go do some research.

[Daniel Agnew]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
That is why 4 teams will advance


Man South Texas you are 100% correct there. The UIL is trying to be a wannabe BCS, now if the two "state champs" from each division play then I wouldn't have a problem with that. I want to see 1 state champ again.

[stevefoxsc]

MOST WINS (ALL-TIME)

Amarillo 676
Temple 667
Plano 665
Highland Park 658
Corsicana 621
Brownwood 620
Wichita Falls 609
John Tyler 591
Port Arthur Jefferson 588
Sweetwater 583
Garland 577
Lufkin 576
Longview 567

Dont let some other 13-5a fans see that or it will turn into a Temple suxs thread in a jiffy

[Dawg Fan]

Firebird said it best IMO- Permian is my pick. They are a legend in High School Football all over the country. The movie didn't hurt either as far as name recognition goes.

[DawgsFanForLife]

I lived in Odessa for 3 years and it sucked. Went to the Permian -VS- OHS game one year and it was the first time OHS had beat Permian in like forever. Was a good game but i still am not a West Texas football fan and i will NEVER live out there again.

They do have plenty of bars but the town is not where i would want to raise a family.

The movie and some die hard fans keep the West Texas memories alive and well.

What have they done lately? Good thing this was about the history lessons.

I'll give them that, they were once a great team. Unless the oil business picks up out west i would say most of those dynasty days are long gone for those teams out there.

DFFL

[LoneRocket]

MOST WINS (ALL-TIME)

Amarillo 676
Temple 667
Plano 665
Highland Park 658
Corsicana 621
Brownwood 620
Wichita Falls 609
John Tyler 591
Port Arthur Jefferson 588
Sweetwater 583
Garland 577
Lufkin 576
Longview 567
There are too many variables to use all-time win loss records, you have to look at when a school started playing ball, classifications, strength of schedule, etc.

[LoneRocket]

I'm not allowed to say Judson is the most impressive because I root for them? I explained why I thought Judson was a better one than Permian and that reason is 31-28. And if you don't understand what I mean by that go do some research.
Actually it is 4-0-1.

[toonman]

Five teams immediately spring to mind :-

Converse Judson
Katy
Midland Lee
Southlake Carroll

and finally Odessa Permian. At this point in time I believe they are the most impressive dynasty, but unless they regain some of their former glory, they will be eclipsed and it appears that SLC are poised to do this, although Judson always seem to be in contention and Katy - I read on another post they have made 15 consecutive play-offs - now that's impressive. I am starting to discount Lee because they were a 3 season wonder riding on Cedric Benson rushing.

[mojo61]

Five teams immediately spring to mind :-

Converse Judson
Katy
Midland Lee
Southlake Carroll

I am starting to discount Lee because they were a 3 season wonder riding on Cedric Benson rushing.

Oooh, you are gonna' make them thar Lee fans mad. :eek:

[mojo61]

Actually it is 4-0-1.

Permian had already started its decline w/ it's new coach @ the time when it played Judson for the champ. in '95 (IMO), so you didn't see the real Mojo in action--wished you could've.

[mojo61]

I lived in Odessa for 3 years and it sucked.
They do have plenty of bars but the town is not where i would want to raise a family.

The movie and some die hard fans keep the West Texas memories alive and well.

What have they done lately? Good thing this was about the history lessons.

I'll give them that, they were once a great team.
DFFL

I grew up in Odessa & thought it was wonderful--raised my boy there. Any town is what you want to make of it. We could have done w/o the bk. & the movie both. Both had plenty of distortions in them, but bad news sells.

[mojo61]

I think "Friday Night Lights" (the book) made Odessa re-exam its' priorities... I wonder if they'll ever be as strong as they once were or if they even WANT to be as strong if it means reverting to the mindset they used to have...

What is the "mindset" that Permian used to have? :confused:

[South Texas]

Five teams immediately spring to mind :-

Converse Judson
Katy
Midland Lee
Southlake Carroll

and finally Odessa Permian. At this point in time I believe they are the most impressive dynasty, but unless they regain some of their former glory, they will be eclipsed and it appears that SLC are poised to do this, although Judson always seem to be in contention and Katy - I read on another post they have made 15 consecutive play-offs - now that's impressive. I am starting to discount Lee because they were a 3 season wonder riding on Cedric Benson rushing.


I have to agree. But when you look at the mojo's accomplishments, http://kylgrafx.com/mojo/ ,it's amazing what they had and how they did it. Before the late 90's, 2 shared titles crap, teams that had to work their way into the playoffs. At least the mojo spirit is alive thru technology.

[Firebird]

I agree, Mojo-- Judson and Permian met while Permian was on its way down, and Judson was on its way up. Would've been cool to see both in their prime, but I'm not sure Texas would have been big enough for both of them.

My parents went to Permian, and the quickest way to get a reaction from them is to just mention the name "Randy Mayes".

[Slim-Rob]

I agree, Mojo-- Judson and Permian met while Permian was on its way down, and Judson was on its way up. Would've been cool to see both in their prime, but I'm not sure Texas would have been big enough for both of them.

My parents went to Permian, and the quickest way to get a reaction from them is to just mention the name "Randy Mayes".

...They played in 1995...Judson didn't win another title until 02....thats not on the way up

But can you imagine Judson vs Permian games once a year? That would a lot of fun.

[LoneRocket]

I agree, Mojo-- Judson and Permian met while Permian was on its way down, and Judson was on its way up. Would've been cool to see both in their prime, but I'm not sure Texas would have been big enough for both of them.

My parents went to Permian, and the quickest way to get a reaction from them is to just mention the name "Randy Mayes".
Judson's started its way up in 82, the 95 game was a classic battle Mendoza vs Prann. If OP was going down you would not have believed it by the way they competed in that game. 4-0-1.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

It is amazing to me that their are only 4 teams in 5A that the majority of the posters believe are dynasty's. Of course the board is loaded with SLC, Judson and Katy fans.

Everyone have good opinions and reasons and are all great programs and would consider them a dynasty in some form or fashion. However, very few props for Plano and what they have accomplished over the last 50 years. Winning a state championship up through 1981 was so much more difficult than it is now. 1 team from district and 1 state champion. Having 3 playoff teams and now 4 district teams starting this year does water down things a bit.

Plano has more state championships than any of the mentioned teams, more playoff wins than any of those teams, more playoff appearances than any of those teams. Plano is a combined 5-2 against carrol, katy, judson and Permian. To me beating MOJO in 77.78,87 and 94 during their heyday is pretty impressive.

Sure plano has been down the last 5 years but had a breakout year this year. I don't care what team you back. Your team will have a down cycle. It will happen to Judson, it will happen to Carroll and it will happen to Katy. Maybe not this year or 4 years from now. It will happen. When it does will you stop calling yourself a dynasty?

[mojo61]

Yeah, Plano was good back in those yrs. (& played well last season, too).

[mojo61]

My parents went to Permian, and the quickest way to get a reaction from them is to just mention the name "Randy Mayes".

PLEASE don't get me started! Coach Mayes was a great asst. coach, but something happened when he became HC. However, I'm sure he wasn't the only variable @ work in Permian's decline. Maybe Per.'s decline was inevitable.

But as sev. posters have observed: a decline will set in w/ all hs fb dynasties sooner or later. What SLC has done so far is impressive, but it remains to be seen if they can stay prominent in the highest classification for 30 yrs.

[Firebird]

Plano fan, I know that there are more than 4 5a dynasties, the four I posted are merely the ones that made my "most impressive" short list. Good case for Plano, there. I didn't realize their winning pctg wat that good.

[dragonsdaddy]

This is from another site
Plano Senior High School

- Won a title in 2,3,4,5A(Only Texas team to do that.)
- Seven State Championships
- 646 Total Victories
- 25 10-Win Seasons
- Most Consecutive Winning Seasons in Texas history - 36
- #5 Winning Percentage - .7025 – 636-256-46
- 29 Consecutive Victories
- 47 Consecutive District Victories
- 33 District Championships
- 42 Playoff Appearances
- 77 Playoff Victories
- 32 Playoff Appearances since 1951
- National Record for High School Football attendance – 49,000 vs Port Neches-Groves
- 1987 National Championship Team
Playoff Apperances (42 - MOST IN TEXAS HISTORY) 1934,35,36,39,40,46,47,51,61,64,65,66,67,68,70,71, 72,73,74,75,77,78,79,80,82,83,

84,86,87,88,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,98,99,2000,01,05b eing a lifelong plano fan and former player, i have to take exception with the plano website. while plano did win state titles in all the classifications mentioned, they really have won in only the largest 3. in the pre 5a days, the third largest class was 2a(now 3a). had the uil used the same nomenclature as is in effect today, the titles would have been 3a, 4a, and 5a. still impressive, and honest.
btw, they deserve to be in the greatest dynasty rankings as much as any team in hs football history.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

being a lifelong plano fan and former player, i have to take exception with the plano website. while plano did win state titles in all the classifications mentioned, they really have won in only the largest 3. in the pre 5a days, the third largest class was 2a(now 3a). had the uil used the same nomenclature as is in effect today, the titles would have been 3a, 4a, and 5a. still impressive, and honest.
btw, they deserve to be in the greatest dynasty rankings as much as any team in hs football history.


I agree with your last sentence. Plano is a top 5 program of all time in Texas Football in any classification. They have done it longer at different levels in different eras better than just about anyone. IF Judson continues what they do for another 20 years as does SL and Katy then they can be a top 5 program of all time.

My list of all time top 3 programs in any classification. IN no particular order.

Plano
Celina
Odessa Periman

Its all about the rings, and wins and records.:) No one has more than those 3.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

Some more stats to back up Permian--

The Panthers won their first state title in 1965, and last appeared in a Texas Bowl in 1995. Over that thirty year span, they won two Mythical National Championships, won 6 state titles, and appeared in an astonishing 12 state title games. In other words, over thirty years, they were in the state title game just under half of those. No one can match that longevity.

I don't think its fair to hold it against them that they were not in "5a" during much of the dynasty years. 5a had not been created at the time, but Permian always played in the largest and most competitive classification, the equivalent of today's 5a. At no time was Permian ever competeing in a lower level classification.

Another fact to consider-- Permian's run of success was mostly BEFORE the system of "Divisional" (big 5a/little 5a)champions. Most of their titles were won when only ONE state champ was crowned in 5a (or 4a), thereby ensuring that the state champ was indeed the best team in the classification. Since 1990, 5a has not crowned a true state champion, leaving room to quibble.

Plano can match Perimans longevity. During that same stretch from 65 to 95 Plano appeared in 9 state championships won 7 state rings and 1 national championship in 87. Plus they beat Periman 4 times in 77, 78, 87 and 93. Plano matched and surpassed during that stretch. I beleive periman might have had a few more overall wins during that period though. But Plano was the stronger program.

[mojo61]

Where was Plano in '65, 68, 70, 72, 75, 80, 84, 85, 89, 91, & '95? Permian played in 11 st. champ. games (all in the st.'s highest classification) in those 3 decades (but didn't always win them). I believe Plano was an extremely lg. schl. during it's dynasty &, of course, Pl. wasn't always in the st.'s highest classification.

I think Pl. was very impressive in its glory yrs. but sincerely doubt that Pl. exceeds Per. in overall performance (although Per. never got a win over Pl.). I like Plano; I always thought it looked like Per. was playing a "mirror image" of itself when it played Pl. (just the schl. colors were diff.). Both teams had great def.'s. during those glory yrs. (Pl. wins over Per. of 3-0 & 6-3 are a couple of scores that come to mind during that period). Maybe both schls. will make it back to prominence some day w/ Pl. having made a good run in
'05.

[dragonsdaddy]

Where was Plano in '65, 68, 70, 72, 75, 80, 84, 85, 89, 91, & '95? Permian played in 11 st. champ. games (all in the st.'s highest classification) in those 3 decades (but didn't always win them). I believe Plano was an extremely lg. schl. during it's dynasty &, of course, Pl. wasn't always in the st.'s highest classification.

I think Pl. was very impressive in its glory yrs. but sincerely doubt that Pl. exceeds Per. in overall performance (although Per. never got a win over Pl.). I like Plano; I always thought it looked like Per. was playing a "mirror image" of itself when it played Pl. (just the schl. colors were diff.). Both teams had great def.'s. during those glory yrs. (Pl. wins over Per. of 3-0 & 6-3 are a couple of scores that come to mind during that period). Maybe both schls. will make it back to prominence some day w/ Pl. having made a good run in
'05.
plano moved up after 2 titles(67 and 71) so they were definitely one of the largest in those classifications. by the back to back titles (86-87) they were one of the largest schools in the state, so what does that prove? thru the years size hasn't been as big of a factor as it was presumed to be. which state champs besides plano and cujo were in the top 5 % of attendence ?

[drgnbkr]

I agree with your last sentence. Plano is a top 5 program of all time in Texas Football in any classification. They have done it longer at different levels in different eras better than just about anyone. IF Judson continues what they do for another 20 years as does SL and Katy then they can be a top 5 program of all time.

My list of all time top 3 programs in any classification. IN no particular order.

Plano
Celina
Odessa Periman

Its all about the rings, and wins and records.:) No one has more than those 3.

If your throwing Celina in there, then Carroll belongs..more rings, more wins, higher %

[Firebird]

By the way, we've gotten into what I didn't want to get into, and are just throwing back stats at each other. The question wasn't "Who won the most", but who was most impressive. I'll give you an example of what I mean:

Both the 2004 UConn Huskies and the 1966 Texas Western Miners won the NCAA Tourney and National Championship. If the two teams played, there is no doubt that UConn of 2004 would have pounded the Miners. But, in my book, the Miners are a more IMPRESSIVE team. They overcame stereotypes and racism and became the 1st all black squad to win the tournament. For the same reason, I rate the 1980 USA Hockey team as the most IMPRESSIVE gold medalist, even though other Olympic hockey teams have had more talent or have been more dominant. They are the most impressive because of how much they accomplished with what little they had, and against incredible odds.

This thread is about the intangibles which set apart legends from dynasties. It is not about knocking other teams accomplishments, since all the programs are fantastic. Its not about arguing over who won the most games, or even titles.

I'm asking for fans to make their case as to what intangibles/immeasureables vault one dynasty to the top. I gave you the reasons I think Permian deserves the nod, but I am open to other opinions. So, Plano fans, why are the Wildcats the most IMPRESSIVE.

[dragonsdaddy]

for one , they are 4-0 against one of the other most dynastic teams in history. but then again they are 0-1 against 2 of the other ones.

[drgnbkr]

for one , they are 4-0 against one of the other most dynastic teams in history. but then again they are 0-1 against 2 of the other ones.
Yeah, Carroll owns Plano...the wildcats are 0 - forever vs. the Dragons...:D You know though, after seeing the sweep this year, it is pretty intimadating..I bet in the old days it was a headache trying to stop that all game long...

[odessapermian.com]

Good thread.

[dragonsdaddy]

Yeah, Carroll owns Plano...the wildcats are 0 - forever vs. the Dragons...:D You know though, after seeing the sweep this year, it is pretty intimadating..I bet in the old days it was a headache trying to stop that all game long...
coju has the same recrd v plano. plano ran mostly option stuff in the day. brence has mostly gotten away from it.

[Slim-Rob]

Judson is 3-0 vs the little SWC in state championship games.....Permian, Midland, Midland Lee:D

[dogsntigers]

Judson is the clear flagship program of Class 5A in my opinion. Katy and Southlake Carroll follow after that. Carroll is obviously the current most recognized program in the state. Permian is definitely up there with those three.

I'd rate Permian and Katy as equals in the dynasty category. The have near equal state championships (in 5A) and playoff wins. In fact, Katy may have passed Permian by one playoff win last season.

Overall, I think Southlake Carroll is the best program in the state because of their success on each level through their growth. They are very similar to Westlake in that regard, except the Chaps only have one championship.

As far as other classes go...La Marque is also one of the best. They went to six state championship games in a row in the 90s, and also have a championship in this decade. Sealy and Celina are obvious choices. Stephenville.



I'm a 2a guy that also enjoys watchin quality 5a ball ( Katy ) . You are dead on when you say Celina even though it pains me to say it. I believe they won 61 straight......Celina reminds me of Katy in alot of ways. Never has the best players but they are well coached and hardly ever make mistakes.

[drgnbkr]

I'm a 2a guy that also enjoys watchin quality 5a ball ( Katy ) . You are dead on when you say Celina even though it pains me to say it. I believe they won 61 straight......Celina reminds me of Katy in alot of ways. Never has the best players but they are well coached and hardly ever make mistakes.

As good as Celina is, and they are really good, Carroll has a 74 game regular winning streak, from the 80's & 90's, (a state record) more rings, and a better winning percentage the past 20 years....

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

Where was Plano in '65, 68, 70, 72, 75, 80, 84, 85, 89, 91, & '95? Permian played in 11 st. champ. games (all in the st.'s highest classification) in those 3 decades (but didn't always win them). I believe Plano was an extremely lg. schl. during it's dynasty &, of course, Pl. wasn't always in the st.'s highest classification.

I think Pl. was very impressive in its glory yrs. but sincerely doubt that Pl. exceeds Per. in overall performance (although Per. never got a win over Pl.). I like Plano; I always thought it looked like Per. was playing a "mirror image" of itself when it played Pl. (just the schl. colors were diff.). Both teams had great def.'s. during those glory yrs. (Pl. wins over Per. of 3-0 & 6-3 are a couple of scores that come to mind during that period). Maybe both schls. will make it back to prominence some day w/ Pl. having made a good run in
'05.

Bottom line is Plano is 4-0 vs Permian and has 7 state championships to 6. You have one kick-*** movie to our 0. Also being out in West Texas away from the big media markets does give permian a bit of aura and mystery before the days of cable and internet.

Side note. Bissinger who wrote Friday Night lights did a huge write up about Plano back in 83 when he worked for the Philadelphia Daily News. A great article about Plano and Highschool Football. He covered the Plano vs Lewisville 83 district championship game at Clark Field. In fact he considered Plano and a few other schools like Temple and HP before focusing his book on Permian.

[South Texas]

Don't forget Pflugerville's winning streak during 1950 -60's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believed it was 65

[TexasRed6x]

It is real easy if we are talking today it would be only three:

Permian
Plano
Judson

They all have the titles to prove this, now with that said in the next 5 years you could add to the list

SLC
Katy

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

coju has the same recrd v plano. plano ran mostly option stuff in the day. brence has mostly gotten away from it.

I don't think Brence has gotten away from the option he is just not as good of a teacher as Kimbrough and Clark was in coaching and preparing new QB's to run the option. Their were some years where I was absolutely embarrassed when they tried to run the thing. 2005 was a good year. Hopefully he has learned.:)

[mojo61]

I wish Bissinger had chosen Plano instead of Permian.

[dragonsdaddy]

I wish Bissinger had chosen Plano instead of Permian.
i was thinking how glad i was he did it the way he did.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

I wish Bissinger had chosen Plano instead of Permian.

Wouldn't of been nearly as good of a book. Plano's 88 team was very bland. Not nearly the drama of what Permian had that year. :)

[mojo61]

One needn't worry; if any drama is lacking, Bissinger is perfectly capable of manufacturing whatever elements are needed to make a good story. :D

[Drake]

One needn't worry; if any drama is lacking, Bissinger is perfectly capable of manufacturing whatever elements are needed to make a good story. :DFunny, Bissinger and the main players portrayed in the book say the story is absolutely true... I lean towards believing them because it is obvious from Permian's slip from football superiority that the town has re-examined some of it's priorities... All in all however, you probably should thank the writer...

[KattTx]

Funny, Bissinger and the main players portrayed in the book say the story is absolutely true... I lean towards believing them because it is obvious from Permian's slip from football superiority that the town has re-examined some of it's priorities... All in all however, you probably should thank the writer...

Nope... The players may tell the media one thing but in real conversations with people they know and that lived the same era at the same age, it's a little different. There is some truth at the heart, but what was true was taken, magnified, and shown through a dramatic magnifying glass.

This wasn't a story about Odessa football. It was a story about Texas football. What went on in Odessa... went on (and still prolly goes on to some degree) in towns across the state. It was a Yankee's view of how people act and interact in Texas, nothing more nothing less. How can anyone from here say they don't know these exact same characters in their town at that time? There are less than stellar Dad's that are living through their kids even now. There are parents that put huge pressure on kids to get scholarships now as well. There is more drinking, more drugs, more casual sex, and more teeanage angst now than there ever was then. There is still discrimination across the state, there are still academic issues when regarding race and economics, etc... The list goes on and on.....

The book didn't have much (if anything) to do with where Odessa is at now. Economics (mid 80's), federal injunction (1984), and the natural ebb and flow of things is what caused the change in Permian's status. And no one who cares about the town would thank Bissinger for anything but leaving. Believe it or not, there is a large percentage of Odessans that could care less about the book, never read it, never cared to read it, and don't care about football at all. If they do, they root for the other high school.

Bottom line, NO team in Texas in the late 80's would have fared any better than Permian if they had been in the same situation.

[dragonsdaddy]

bissinger used a liberal amount of poetic license, and the screen play writer even more. and in reality, the truth may have been stranger than fiction, but wouldn't have been politically acceptible, or certainly not as box office expedient. the movie enhanced the eastern and left coast perceptions, but there have been multiple instances of same throughout cinematic history. this movie sometimes stepped over the line from preachin into meddlin, and for that it will occasionally be vilified, and justifiably so.

[Drake]

Nice post KattTx...

First, the movie is nothing like the book, I’m only talking about the book...

I believe the quotes and events in the book are accurate and the writer to this day swears there are no exaggerations… Furthermore, many players have said that all the events and quotes they personally witnessed are dead on… Makes me believe that the ones they didn’t witness were probably as well…

I think the biggest problem Odessa had with the book was the false pretenses the writer made when seeking permission to do the book.... The writer explains that they were not false pretenses at all because he was sincere about doing a “Hoosiers” type story until he discovered the REAL story in Odessa midway through his year spent there.

As far as his “yankee” perception of Texas High School football, sometimes a little perspective is a good thing. I hope you’re not dismissing the work because it was done by a northerner? Through an objective examination of one successful Texas program, the book exposed the country, and more importantly Texas, to the best and worst of high school football. The expose is much more interesting than an account that only showed the rosy side of what we all love, and I think we’re all probably better off because of it…

I think it should be required reading for all coaches, players, and player PARENTS in the state, especially at…

[CCHS77]

I think it should be required reading for all coaches, players, and player PARENTS in the state, especially at…


At where and why?

[Drake]

especially at… schools and in communities that make hs football success the #1 priority in the community...

[CCHS77]

especially at… schools and in communities that make hs football success the #1 priority in the community...


Agreed.

What community, or communities come to your mind as fitting this mold?

[dragonsdaddy]

especially at… schools and in communities that make hs football success the #1 priority in the community...
only to the extent that other historinovels are required. this book was one man's fact-based novel and thus should be read with a grain or two of nacl. if it reinforces your opinions, it will be taken as fact. if not, it won't.

[Drake]

Agreed.

What community, or communities come to your mind as fitting this mold?I don't know enough about any of them except Baytown to pass judgment...

As far as Baytown is concerned, they've gone to the other extreme (well, not quite)... In the 50's, 60's and 70's the Friday nights under the lights was the place to be here... The town rallied around its team(s) and it was a true source of community pride... That waned in the 80's and even though Lee has had some recent success, it never returned like it was... I think not having what we once had has hurt Baytown...

I certainly think high school athletics and particularly football should be a priority, after all, many will tell you their fondest memories of high school involved Friday nights at the stadium, whether they were a player, band member, cheerleader, of just there to hang out and meet a girl... Just not the #1 priority...

The problem, as I see it, is winning becomes so important that things like fellowship, loyalty, and program integrity become expendable, or when undo pressure is placed on teenage kids...

[Drake]

only to the extent that other historinovels are required. this book was one man's fact-based novel and thus should be read with a grain or two of nacl. if it reinforces your opinions, it will be taken as fact. if not, it won't.Novel? I assume you mean the story was "invented"? What information do you have that refutes the accounts and descriptions from the book, especially since the writer and most of the subjects have publicly said it was true and accurate...

[KattTx]

Thanks and I was talking about the book as well. I have tried and tried to stay off this thread, really I have. I'm tired of chewing on this piece of fat. :p (The movie doesn't even rate discussion. )

But all things are relative. When two people witness something, their own personalities and life experiences taint what they see and 99% of the time, those two people will describe two different scenarios. I'm not saying that Permian or Odessa for that matter were or even are a perfect town with the most honorable of intentions. I'm not even saying that everything Buzz stated was a lie. I am saying a lot of it was distorted, taken out of a context or point of reference he never had. (thus= outsider, yankee, new yorker, etc...) ;) I won't rehash the fact that, in fact, not all of the events or attitudes were accurate. He can swear until the day he dies, but I was in that environment (Jr/Sr at the OHS). I was at the parties, the pits, BS, the drag, all of it and his descriptions of things I experienced are just off. He was viewing another generation from another universe (Texas kids) through his own experiences and expectations. Which is why I have issues with his perceptions.

I love football. I love and admire the kids that play this greatest of games. But I am also not niave enough to think there isn't a dark side. It's there in every single program, in every single sport, in every corner of the globe at some point in time. I guess I am just so tired of others looking down on Odessa as this sad little anomoly that was destined for tradgedy and giving ole Buzz credit for "turning" this town around. Trust me, he's not that relevant and Odessa wasn't the exception.

[dragonsdaddy]

Novel? I assume you mean the story was "invented"? What information do you have that refutes the accounts and descriptions from the book, especially since the writer and most of the subjects have publicly said it was true and accurate...
katt pretty well explained the novel part. the author felt an elephant's leg while blindfolded and described it. simple enough.

[Drake]

I guess I am just so tired of others looking down on Odessa as this sad little anomoly that was destined for tradgedy and giving ole Buzz credit for "turning" this town around. Trust me, he's not that relevant and Odessa wasn't the exception.My assumption was that the book changed attitudes in Odessa and Permian's continuing dominance suffered for it... It was an assumption based on those factors alone... You are obviously much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am... So, I've learned something...

[Drake]

katt pretty well explained the novel part. the author felt an elephant's leg while blindfolded and described it. simple enough.I don't agree with this... (extreme analogy) If I watch a beheading video and then describe it to you accurately, but with a slant as if it was the coolest thing I ever saw, and you think it's the grossest thing you've ever heard, that does not make my account fiction... Furthermore, you probably wouldn't base your opinion about the video on my slant, but your feelings about the act itself...

If Buzz was particularly appalled by things that seem normal to you and I, then we'll still view them as normal... The facts are the facts regardless of whether or not we agree he should be appalled...

Can you show an instance from the book where he just plain lied?

[KattTx]

hehe... Like I said, it's an oooold piece of fat and you are in the majority here. ;) Of course, before FNL, I would read a book and take it at face value. I love to read and love non-fiction. Now... not so. Maybe that is Buzz's biggest contribution to this area. Don't believe everything you read. tee hee..

[dragonsdaddy]

I don't agree with this... (extreme analogy) If I watch a beheading video and then describe it to you accurately, but with a slant as if it was the coolest thing I ever saw, and you think it's the grossest thing you've ever heard, that does not make my account fiction... Furthermore, you probably wouldn't base your opinion about the video on my slant, but your feelings about the act itself...

If Buzz was particularly appalled by things that seem normal to you and I, then we'll still view them as normal... The facts are the facts regardless of whether or not we agree he should be appalled...

Can you show an instance from the book where he just plain lied?
like i implied, perception is not always reality. and talk about an extreme example.

[Drake]

hehe... Like I said, it's an oooold piece of fat and you are in the majority here. ;) Of course, before FNL, I would read a book and take it at face value. I love to read and love non-fiction. Now... not so. Maybe that is Buzz's biggest contribution to this area. Don't believe everything you read. tee hee..LOL... If I'm in the majority on this site, either something's wrong, or I won't be for long... Watch and see...

[KattTx]

I don't agree with this... (extreme analogy) If I watch a beheading video and then describe it to you accurately, but with a slant as if it was the coolest thing I ever saw, that does not make my account fiction... Furthermore, you probably wouldn't base your opinion about the video on my slant, but your feelings about the act itself...

If Buzz was particularly appalled by things that seem normal to you and I, then we'll still view them as normal... The facts are the facts regardless of whether or not we agree he should be appalled...

Can you show an instance from the book where he just plain lied?

But, I'm not disputing facts. Games played, stats, names, places, etc... It was the attitudes or environment that he described that just isn't.....

It wasn't his take on a physical event, it was an unquantifiable description of a place. His take or his perception of places and people were just wrong. He leads the reader to conclusions that are based only on his perceptions. It's been a lotta years since I have read the book, but I am sure I can point out a few glaring instances of dramatic license.

And as far as the head chopping thing, that's a little extreme, but it fits. Everything is relative. At a certain time and place, beheading was not seen as the barbaric and violent happening that it is seen here and now. It was viewed as everyday and necessary.

[KattTx]

LOL... If I'm in the majority on this site, either something's wrong, or I won't be for long... Watch and see...


Hey, I respect people who stand out. Some call us freaks... I prefer individualist! hehehe :D

[Drake]

Hey, I respect people who stand out. Some call us freaks... I prefer individualist! hehehe :DExcellent!... Next time my wife asks why I can't mow the lawn regularly like all the other husbands I'm going to use that! :D

[KattTx]

LMBO!!!! She may call you worse than a freak if you do that!!! ;)

[KattTx]

OR... you could try what my loving hubby did. He bought me the nicest self propelled john deere on the market. I tell ya, I was the envy of all the gals on my street!! :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Actually, I did that exact thing, but she wrongly accused me of buying it for myself...

[KattTx]

hehe... Well, I just can't imagine that! :D

[odessapermian.com]

Can you show an instance from the book where he just plain lied?

Right off the top of my head, let me give you this...on one page of the book, Bissinger talks about how the coaches abandoned Boobie Miles, they gave up on him, never tried to help him. On the NEXT PAGE, the book talks about how they tried, begged, and pleaded to help him, tried to get him to give playing defense a try (since he had lost speed after the injury), to the point of one coach going out to buy a Lawrence Taylor poster to show him that playing defense could be cool too. Complete contradiction, two pages apart.

[mojo61]

I've always thought that Bissinger already had the bk. written before he ever visited Odessa & just needed to fill in names, etc. The blatant racism I never observed while growing up there--but that's one person's opinion. Racism exist everywhere, but I observed less of it in Odessa than anywhere else I've lived, & I've lived quite a few places in Texas & a couple of places in Calif. If Bissinger observed more racism in Odessa than other places he's lived, then he must have lived in some pretty wonderful places, indeed.

Odessa is a great town, but one would never know it by reading FNL. BTW, the shcl. system in Ector Co. was great when I lived there, & I received a good ed. there, IMO.

[SandieFootballPlayer72]

most wins in the state
Amarillo 676
Temple 667
Plano 665
Highland Park 658
Corsicana 621
Brownwood 620
Wichita Falls 609
John Tyler 591
Port Arthur Jefferson 588
Sweetwater 583
Garland 577
Lufkin 576
Longview 567

[Slim-Rob]

most wins in the state
Amarillo 676
Temple 667
Plano 665
Highland Park 658
Corsicana 621
Brownwood 620
Wichita Falls 609
John Tyler 591
Port Arthur Jefferson 588
Sweetwater 583
Garland 577
Lufkin 576
Longview 567

That doesn't make them dynasties. Some teams have been around since the 20's while others since the 60's, 70's, or 80's. Win% is a much better stat...

[FeeltheHaka]

In this order:

Celina-No question here in my opinion
Mojo-Had 2 cousins play there, and was able to see some of their (Mojo's) glory
Converse Judson-Record speaks for itself
Plano-Always good

Why not Southlake? The resources at their disposal in my opinion, give them way too much of an advantage that the above do/did not have.

Also, in my opinion; Odessa is a nice place. I never really have heard of the rough reputation. I have family there, and everytime I've gone there; everyone has been very friendly.

[drgnbkr]

In this order:

Celina-No question here in my opinion
Mojo-Had 2 cousins play there
Converse Judson-Record speaks for itself
Plano-Always good

Why not Southlake? The resources at their disposal in my opinion, give them way too much of an advantage that the above do/did not have.

There go those cheatin Dragons again!...You're hilarious haka....you just can't stand it can you? We're so close, but so far....

[FeeltheHaka]

There go those cheatin Dragons again!...You're hilarious haka....you just can't stand it can you? We're so close, but so far....

Wait a minute, nowhere in my post did I say cheating. Re-read what I posted before you put words in my mouth. What can't I stand? What do you mean by close, but so far?

[drgnbkr]

Wait a minute, nowhere in my post did I say cheating. Re-read what I posted before you put words in my mouth. What can't I stand? What do you mean by close, but so far?

I suppose that if you are implying that the Dragons are winning, but should'nt, because of the "advantages" then there is a false reason other than the 1000's of hours they put in....hence a shortcut, or cheatin...your only a few miles away but a long way from reality! You can't stand the Dragons success..it's obvious..Good luck on reloading..both teams are going to be doing a lot of it!

[FeeltheHaka]

I suppose that if you are implying that the Dragons are winning, but should'nt, because of the "advantages" then there is a false reason other than the 1000's of hours they put in....hence a shortcut, or cheatin...your only a few miles away but a long way from reality! You can't stand the Dragons success..it's obvious..Good luck on reloading..both teams are going to be doing a lot of it!

Your assumptions are wrong. I'm not saying that Southlake shouldn't win. I love Southlake's success. As I have posted before, alot of Southlake's ideas and knowledge have been implemented at Trinity. One could easily say that Trinity won State this year partially on Southlake's innovations. I also enjoy Southlake's success, because it shows what could be. It lends credence to whole Robin Hood debate on school financing and equal education. In Southlake, Students excel both on and off the field. Heck, I can't tell how many players we lost to grades this year, and other years. This shows that with excellent parent participation and funds what a school district is capable of. My point being is that Southlake as a whole, not just the Football team is innovating education. The fact that the Dallas Cowboys use Southlake's facilities, and former and Current NFL players help out with the program is a great example of how I feel Corporate America should participate more in high school student programs. I am not just talking about Sports either.
Another thing I like about Southlake's success, is that it shatters some racial stereotypes. As a minority, one assumes that athletic talent is genetic; and intellect is not. When one makes this assumption, I can just point out Southlake.
In your reply, I feel you drew false conclusions from my opinion. The topic of this thread is Most impressive dynasty. I gave my opinion of why I am not impressed with Southlake as a dynasty, because of the advantages they have as compared to other dynasties that do/did not have the same advantages as compared to their opponents. You have to admit that Southlake has way many more advantages than anyone. To deny this is to be far away from reality as you accused me of.
I did not mean to get off on so many tangents in my post, but to some I have to explain that I do not dislike Southlake. Again, I just don't feel that they are an impressive dynasty.
As far as next year, in my opinion Southlake will probably be miles ahead of Trinity. This year we had an unbelievable team that will be extremely difficult to dupicate

[dragonsdaddy]

haka isn't impressed with 63-1, 6 titles in 18 years, because it has really been bought with daddy's money. the kids hard work has less to do with it than all the overindulgences sl parents provide their kids. how embarrassed the chhs kids must be that their equally well-off parents don't buy them state titles in multiples of 3. seems to me haka, if it was as easy as you make it out to be, everyone would do it.

[drgnbkr]

Dang it, if we had'nt had to send all those millions of $ out for Robin Hood, the Dragons would never have lost that game to Katy....:D I can tell you, no one is measuring my 8th grader for a ring yet..he'll have to earn it the old fashioned way, like Ddaddy's 3 son's, through hard work.

[FeeltheHaka]

haka isn't impressed with 63-1, 6 titles in 18 years, because it has really been bought with daddy's money. the kids hard work has less to do with it than all the overindulgences sl parents provide their kids. how embarrassed the chhs kids must be that their equally well-off parents don't buy them state titles in multiples of 3. seems to me haka, if it was as easy as you make it out to be, everyone would do it.

No, I'm not impressed. I live down the road from Southlake, and I know what they have. The kid's at all school's work hard. To me, it sounds like you are saying that only the kid's at Southlake work hard. I'm not denying the kid's at Southlake work hard. It is just that they have alot of tools to make their work more efficient. They have a parent who is at home. They have transportation, They have milk and cookies when they get home. Also, people in Southlake put a value on their football program. The football and sports facilities actually generate revenue from Professional teams renting the facilities. By comparison, In Bedford and Euless; people put a value on getting to work each day so they can buy food and clothes for their kids. I mean come on, our kids could not even afford their rings. I'm sure as you know, most of them got their rings thanks to the help of alot of Southlake people. I thought that was a wonderful thing. I've never posted that here, but I am trying to demonstrate again; that I have no problem with what Southlake does, it is just that I am not impressed. It sounds like some people need to come to the real world. Are you all denying that Southlake does not have advantages that every other school does not have? Trust me, give Colleyville a few years, and a coaching change; and they'll be running their program just like yours. We know how competitve Southlake and Colleyville are with eachother. Also, give Westlake some time, and they'll be there too. There are now just as many former NFL in Westlake as there is in Southlake.
I don't know why you all are putting words in my mouth as to imply that I am saying that Southlake cheats, or that the kid's do not work hard. I never posted this anywhere.

[drgnbkr]

No, I'm not impressed. I live down the road from Southlake, and I know what they have. The kid's at all school's work hard. To me, it sounds like you are saying that only the kid's at Southlake work hard. I'm not denying the kid's at Southlake work hard. It is just that they have alot of tools to make their work more efficient. They have a parent who is at home. They have transportation, They have milk and cookies when they get home. Also, people in Southlake put a value on their football program. The football and sports facilities actually generate revenue from Professional teams renting the facilities. By comparison, In Bedford and Euless; people put a value on getting to work each day so they can buy food and clothes for their kids. I mean come on, our kids could not even afford their rings. I'm sure as you know, most of them got their rings thanks to the help of alot of Southlake people. I thought that was a wonderful thing. I've never posted that here, but I am trying to demonstrate again; that I have no problem with what Southlake does, it is just that I am not impressed. It sounds like some people need to come to the real world. Are you all denying that Southlake does not have advantages that every other school does not have? Trust me, give Colleyville a few years, and a coaching change; and they'll be running their program just like yours. We know how competitve Southlake and Colleyville are with eachother. Also, give Westlake some time, and they'll be there too. There are now just as many former NFL in Westlake as there is in Southlake.
I don't know why you all are putting words in my mouth as to imply that I am saying that Southlake cheats, or that the kid's do not work hard. I never posted this anywhere.

Milk & cookies? Huh? The Cowboys used our indoor facility once, got envious and built their own. Coppell has one also and it has'nt exactly done them any good...As far as our facilities generating revenue, i would argue that Pennington Field, your home, generates more revenue than Dragon Stadium. Coach Ledbetter retired from coaching so that he could devote the time it took to get the facility built, and it was'nt easy! Believe me, Southlake parents go to work every day also.....I believe the class difference argument is tired....as has been pointed out enough.... if money was the difference, all the wealthier schools would have rings...Are there problems in Southlake? Yes, just like everywhere else..too much drinking, too much free time, too many parents taking the easy way out, by buying their kids things instead of spending time with them....these are not just Southlake problems, they are universal...

[dragonsdaddy]

i am unimpressed by celina, which is a football factory, where a much higher percentage of the players have nfl bloodlines, and their success, while originally pure, has been adulterated with their size(largest in 2a many of the years) and their coaching, which has made it too easy. operm and judson also had too much of an advantage for many of their years, with the ability to attract great players(af and oil field jobs) to be really impressive. plano too was a hotbed for football and attracted many of the best players whose parents were moving into the metromess. all of these teams had too many advantages to be considered an impressive dynasty. i guess that leaves as the only impressive dynasty-kt.

[FeeltheHaka]

Milk & cookies? Huh? The Cowboys used our indoor facility once, got envious and built their own. Coppell has one also and it has'nt exactly done them any good...As far as our facilities generating revenue, i would argue that Pennington Field, your home, generates more revenue than Dragon Stadium. Coach Ledbetter retired from coaching so that he could devote the time it took to get the facility built, and it was'nt easy! Believe me, Southlake parents go to work every day also.....I believe the class difference argument is tired....as has been pointed out enough.... if money was the difference, all the wealthier schools would have rings...Are there problems in Southlake? Yes, just like everywhere else..too much drinking, too much free time, too many parents taking the easy way out, by buying their kids things instead of spending time with them....these are not just Southlake problems, they are universal...


It is not just the Cowboys who have used Southlake's facilities. Other professional sports teams and athletes have used and use Southlake's facilities. I know Coach Ledbetter. He is a very good man. Pennington Field does not make any money. The class argument is tired, but true. It's one thing to live paycheck to paycheck, with both parents working; then one parent working, and money in the bank. There's another world out there. What do you mean by the weathier schools having rings? Do you mean the weatlthier schools don't buy rings for the players? If that is what you mean, then I can tell you that they don't need to because the parents can afford it. Do you mean that all the wealthier schools don't have championships? If that is what you mean, then my argument would be that if they put a value on it as Southlake does; then they would have more championships. Southlake has built a top notch school district. No denying it. Southlake is one of the wealthiest school districts, if not THE wealthiest in the state. I think people in Southlake are extremely smart. Usually, people who have the wealth that Southlake has send their kids to private school. Southlake is smart to use their money, (and less of it than a private school,) to build up their public schools. This is wonderful! I hope the whole idea spreads. Especially on the parental participation front. My wife is a school teacher in HEB, and the biggest problem is parental participation. We used to live in Plano in the wealthiest part of Plano, and I can tell you that the parents in the wealthiest part of Plano participate less, (yes, I said less,) than the parents of HEB. Southlake people are wonderful for how they participate in their children's lives and community compared to other wealthy areas.
Am I explaining more clearly why I'm not impressed with Southlake's dynasty?
The true test will be when Colleyville, Westlake and other wealthy areas start to mimmick Southlake's ideas and phiosophy; will Southlake still be champions? When district lines are redrawn, and Southlake is not able to Gerrymander the lines, will Southlake still be successful? I will be impressed when that happens.

[dragonsdaddy]

Am I explaining more clearly why I'm not impressed with Southlake's dynasty?
The true test will be when Colleyville, Westlake and other wealthy areas start to mimmick Southlake's ideas and phiosophy; will Southlake still be champions? When district lines are redrawn, and Southlake is not able to Gerrymander the lines, will Southlake still be successful? I will be impressed when that happens.
please give me an idea when we should expect chhs to step forward. they have been at it since 97 or 98. westlake doesn't have their own school, and likely never will, as they will be blended into roanoke/trophy club. and exactly what are you convicting cisd of doing? the school district size has been stable for at least the 9 years we have lived here. there is a disagreement with nwisd concerning fewer than 10 houses. are you explaining our success on the fate of those 10? please explain your accusation.

[drgnbkr]

Am I explaining more clearly why I'm not impressed with Southlake's dynasty?
The true test will be when Colleyville, Westlake and other wealthy areas start to mimmick Southlake's ideas and phiosophy; will Southlake still be champions? When district lines are redrawn, and Southlake is not able to Gerrymander the lines, will Southlake still be successful? I will be impressed when that happens.

While I appreciate your passion and a lot of your post's points, I want to say that I'm not in this thread to convince anyone of Carroll's right to claim dynastic status. What I have responded to were your claims that somehow The Dragons were members of the lucky sperm club or somesuch, enabling them to out spend the other team ensuring victory. The only correlating thread to this opinion of yours is that yes, for the 14 years I have been living in Southlake, the Dragons have been overachievers, like thier parents. This holds true in almost every endeavor, academics, drama, sports, band..you name it. When I moved to Southlake, it was a rural suburb of Ft. Worth, with more horses than people. A large portion of the 92 State Champion Football team was on the rodeo team, including the 5'9" 160# QB, Will Mantooth, who rode bulls, and ran over much larger linebackers with great regularity. That is where Southlake Carroll Football came from. Sure money is great, who does'nt want more? But it does'nt buy happiness and it can't buy a State Title in Football. You still have to earn that by being better and usually tougher, than everyone else.

[FeeltheHaka]

please give me an idea when we should expect chhs to step forward. they have been at it since 97 or 98. westlake doesn't have their own school, and likely never will, as they will be blended into roanoke/trophy club. and exactly what are you convicting cisd of doing? the school district size has been stable for at least the 9 years we have lived here. there is a disagreement with nwisd concerning fewer than 10 houses. are you explaining our success on the fate of those 10? please explain your accusation.

And, how long was Southlake Carrol in existance before their first championship? Did Southlake start off a 5A school? Colleyville is getting better each year. Just you wait and see. As soon as Westlake has a boom like Southlake's boom, the changes will occur. They are booming now, but nothing like the boom Southlake experienced after relaxing its lot size minimum. As far as district lines goes: If you don't know the history on this, then look into for yourself. I don't have enough time to post here on that whole scenario.
I don't want to post anymore about this. We have gotten too far away from the thread topic; and I have posted my thoughts on this in the past. I don't want to look like I have an axe to grind with Southlake. I don't, and I hope that I have communicated that. Like I said before, when things are equal; I'll be impressed with Southlake's dynasty.
Till then it will be Celina, Odessa Permian, Converse Judson then Plano.

[drgnbkr]

And, how long was Southlake Carrol in existance before their first championship? Did Southlake start off a 5A school? Colleyville is getting better each year. Just you wait and see. As soon as Westlake has a boom like Southlake's boom, the changes will occur. They are booming now, but nothing like the boom Southlake experienced after relaxing its lot size minimum. As far as district lines goes: If you don't know the history on this, then look into for yourself. I don't have enough time to post here on that whole scenario.
I don't want to post anymore about this. We have gotten too far away from the thread topic; and I have posted my thoughts on this in the past. I don't want to look like I have an axe to grind with Southlake. I don't, and I hope that I have communicated that. Like I said before, when things are equal; I'll be impressed with Southlake's dynasty.
Till then it will be Celina, Odessa Permian, Converse Judson then Plano.

If your at work like I am, we're both gonna get fired if we keep this up!...Till another thread......;)

[dragonsdaddy]

And, how long was Southlake Carrol in existance before their first championship? Did Southlake start off a 5A school? Colleyville is getting better each year. Just you wait and see. As soon as Westlake has a boom like Southlake's boom, the changes will occur. They are booming now, but nothing like the boom Southlake experienced after relaxing its lot size minimum. As far as district lines goes: If you don't know the history on this, then look into for yourself. I don't have enough time to post here on that whole scenario.
I don't want to post anymore about this. We have gotten too far away from the thread topic; and I have posted my thoughts on this in the past. I don't want to look like I have an axe to grind with Southlake. I don't, and I hope that I have communicated that. Like I said before, when things are equal; I'll be impressed with Southlake's dynasty.
Till then it will be Celina, Odessa Permian, Converse Judson then Plano.well, things will never be equal. that's life. and chhs is probably more unequal per capita than slc, and always have been. they don't seem to be improving significantly, by any standards i have seen. and like i said, this supposed jerrymandering of district lines was at least 10 years ago, so i wonder if it will ever quit being the thing on which state titles are built? fortunately , like i said in previous threads of similar undertones, the kids at sl don't buy into the richie rich kids gret everything given to them philosophy, but i'm hoping kids everywhere else are convinced they are better because of their parents incomes. if so, we may be just starting on this unimpressive winning streak.

[drgnbkr]

The hell with Plano, Judson and all the others! When I think of Dynasty, I think of Linda Evans and Joan Collins!......:D

[Eagle81]

The hell with Plano, Judson and all the others! When I think of Dynasty, I think of Linda Evans and Joan Collins!......:D

Oh yeah. I'm on board with your train of thought.

[jrock89]

I agree with your last sentence. Plano is a top 5 program of all time in Texas Football in any classification. They have done it longer at different levels in different eras better than just about anyone. IF Judson continues what they do for another 20 years as does SL and Katy then they can be a top 5 program of all time.

My list of all time top 3 programs in any classification. IN no particular order.

Plano
Celina
Odessa Periman

Its all about the rings, and wins and records.:) No one has more than those 3.

Judson is not some "Johnny come lately" as you seem to be suggesting. 29 staight winning seasons in the state's largest classification in one of the state's toughest districts, plus 10 5A State Title game appearances since 1983, (nearly an appearance every other year), 6 state championships, plus state title wins over both Plano and Permian. If you factor in that Permian has been a non-factor for nearly a decade, (and Plano has been too, with the exception of 2005), Judson's longevity is right there with Permian, and not too far behind Plano. Judson easily one of the top 5 all-time programs in State history, right along side Plano and Permian.

[RocklandDragon]

Although, money that school surrounds a school district helps, it does not gurantee success. Take Highland Park for example. Talk about a rich district. They won a state title this year but had not won a state title since 1957. There are many rich areas around Texas that have not won a state title or it has been many years.

Three out of 4 state titles is very impressive. When will Southlake's run end? Don't know.

My vote for most impressive dynasty is the 1954-1956 Abilene High War Eagles. 3 straight titles (I believe undefeated in 1955 and 1956) and was so close to a 4th (lost on penetrations to Highland Park in 1957). The district they played in was tough. During the '50's, there were 5 state champions and 1 more state finalist in that district alone.

:D

[odessapermian.com]

i operm and judson also had too much of an advantage for many of their years, with the ability to attract great players(af and oil field jobs)

Can't speak for Judson but at Permian the oil field jobs for good players' dads is a myth. I defy anyone to name even one instance.

I will expand on what haka is saying about facilities, etc, but I'll do it to disagree a little. In Permian's case, they may not have had the physical facilities, but the program, mindset, parent participation, etc was as good as it gets (at that time). Problem for us is, everyone caught up..

[dragonsdaddy]

Can't speak for Judson but at Permian the oil field jobs for good players' dads is a myth. I defy anyone to name even one instance.

I will expand on what haka is saying about facilities, etc, but I'll do it to disagree a little. In Permian's case, they may not have had the physical facilities, but the program, mindset, parent participation, etc was as good as it gets (at that time). Problem for us is, everyone caught up..
my cheeks are still sore from jamming my tongue into them.

[mojo61]

If that "oilfield thing" is true, man, w/ oil above $60 & forecasted to go to $100, lookout for Permian now! We ought to have fantastic teams in the next few yrs.! I can hardly wait!! Thank Goodness for oil attracting good players!!!
(I've heard those stupid "oilfield" rumors all over the st. for yrs.-- :) )

[dragonsdaddy]

If that "oilfield thing" is true, man, w/ oil above $60 & forecasted to go to $100, lookout for Permian now! We ought to have fantastic teams in the next few yrs.! I can hardly wait!! Thank Goodness for oil attracting good players!!!
(I've heard those stupid "oilfield" rumors all over the st. for yrs.-- :) )
the oilfield money and its ability to attract dad's whose kids could play is what led the uil to buckle down and put some teeth into their transfer policies. of course this was 50 + years ago.

[mojo61]

So does the money & wages in the high-tech industries attract dad's w/ good fb-player-sons to the Austin area? If that theory is true then Austin should have sev. champ. teams. I think the "oilfield" money producing good fb teams idea is bogus & always has been.

[dragonsdaddy]

So does the money & wages in the high-tech industries attract dad's w/ good fb-player-sons to the Austin area? If that theory is true then Austin should have sev. champ. teams. I think the "oilfield" money producing good fb teams idea is bogus & always has been.
it was a huge influence in the early days. the uil has clamped down of late. you can want it to be a myth, but there are lots of examples, though i can only vouch for one-jarrin john kimbrough.

[FeeltheHaka]

So does the money & wages in the high-tech industries attract dad's w/ good fb-player-sons to the Austin area? If that theory is true then Austin should have sev. champ. teams. I think the "oilfield" money producing good fb teams idea is bogus & always has been.

The thing about the tech. money in Austion is that most of it mostly comes from somewhere else. Alot of Californian. Most of them could care less about Football, and think we are nuts. I come across many of them in my job.

[Firebird]

I don't believe most of the rumors about Mojo and oil money. If they are true, OPerm did a really bad job. Even at the height of their dynsasty, they never were able land as many athletic scholarships as some of the lesser schools. You would think they would want to attract studs like that if they were using oil money to recruit. If you follow Mojo football closely, you find that most of the Panther legends were hometown kids who grew up wanting to play for the Panthers.

[mojo61]

Thank you, Firebird. You are correct.

[FeeltheHaka]

I don't believe most of the rumors about Mojo and oil money. If they are true, OPerm did a really bad job. Even at the height of their dynsasty, they never were able land as many athletic scholarships as some of the lesser schools. You would think they would want to attract studs like that if they were using oil money to recruit. If you follow Mojo football closely, you find that most of the Panther legends were hometown kids who grew up wanting to play for the Panthers.

I have family that were born and raised in Odessa. Two of my cousins who played there were excellent starters, and one of them went on to play at Rice; and had NFL offers. He never played NFL. He was a brainey type, and actually graduated Rice with high grades. On this board is the first I've ever heard of the oil money rumor. I can see this rumor about for Tyler, because that is where most of the oil money in Texas is.

[mojo61]

The oil rumor was also around in the 40's & 50's when I lived in Brownwood as a grade-schooler. Bwd. could never seem to beat Breckenridge, so just about everybody in Bwd. blamed the Lions' lack of success on the oil money in Breckenridge attracting families that had good fb players. Looking back on it, I think the Bwd. folks were just frustrated because they couldn't seem to beat those Buckeroos.

[Firebird]

The oil money rumor has been around fro a long time. Lots of times it was perpetuated by Dallas area people who just couldn't understand why they kept getting their butts handed to them by these West Texas teams.

The thing about Permian is that they were the first football dynasty as we use the term today. If you look back before their dominance, you can find teams that had incredible runs of success, but nothing as long lived and as consistent as Permian. Permian surged to the top of the Texas High School football heap almost as soon as the doors opened in 1965, and stayed at the top until the 1990's. People had never seen dominance like Permian's before, and so they immediatly cried foul.

The secret is that there was no secret. Odessa Permian's amazing run was due wholly to the singleminded determination of an entire community to field the best football team in the state. Coaches from all over the state and country made pilgrammages to Odessa to observe and learn, and then they took that back home. As soon as other communities started putting the same effort into athletics as Odessa Permian did, new dynasties arose-- see SLC, Judson, Plano. They emulated, and improved upon, the structure Odessa Permian built.

[dragonsdaddy]

the oil money stories all predate operm. the 40-50's were the epitome of said myths, and as stated earlier, were pretty much the reason the uil became as powerful as the have become. breckinridge was definitely one of the main culprits, and led to increased enforcement. and brownwood never had the oil money that some other areas did, so they just used their minor-league team(early) to develop their talent.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

The oil money rumor has been around fro a long time. Lots of times it was perpetuated by Dallas area people who just couldn't understand why they kept getting their butts handed to them by these West Texas teams.

The thing about Permian is that they were the first football dynasty as we use the term today. If you look back before their dominance, you can find teams that had incredible runs of success, but nothing as long lived and as consistent as Permian. Permian surged to the top of the Texas High School football heap almost as soon as the doors opened in 1965, and stayed at the top until the 1990's. People had never seen dominance like Permian's before, and so they immediatly cried foul.

The secret is that there was no secret. Odessa Permian's amazing run was due wholly to the singleminded determination of an entire community to field the best football team in the state. Coaches from all over the state and country made pilgrammages to Odessa to observe and learn, and then they took that back home. As soon as other communities started putting the same effort into athletics as Odessa Permian did, new dynasties arose-- see SLC, Judson, Plano. They emulated, and improved upon, the structure Odessa Permian built.

Plano didn't emulate Perimian or anybody for their success it was built from within starting in the early 60's with Tom Gray and John Clark. Plano had success and titles way before Permian became a power. Lets get them facts straight before saying that Plano rode the coattails of another program. :)

[dragonsdaddy]

[/B]

Plano didn't emulate Perimian or anybody for their success it was built from within starting in the early 60's with Tom Gray and John Clark. Plano had success and titles way before Permian became a power. Lets get them facts straight before saying that Plano rode the coattails of another program. :)
i was thinking operm and plano won their first titles in the same year. i know it was plano's first deep run in the po's.

[lonny23]

First of all, some definitions are in order. By "impressive" I don't mean simply "best." What I mean is, what Texas high school football dynasty is most worthy of sheer admiration, at the determination and guts of the people who built it. In this category, overcoming odds gets you more points than sheer talent. Here are my contenders:

Converse Judson: The best 5A program ever and a Texas legend.
Katy: Multiple state titles, they won through hard work and grit, not by having the most talented teams.
SLC: You have to respect what they have done, especially by going from 3a-4a-5a without missing a beat.

These 4 deserve their props but my winner is: Odessa Permian.

Why Permian-- How many of you have been to Odessa? Odessa is and always was a TOUGH, TOUGH town. During boom times, when oil was flowing and prices were high, Odessa had the highest murder rate in the country, worse than Miami at the height of the Miami gang wars. At a time when all of West Texas was inhabited by tee-totalling Baptists and Church of Christ folks, Odessa was "Sin City" and Ector county was the only wet county for miles around. In the little SWC, Abilene was known for fine, upstanding Christians, Midland was where the bosses and bankers out in the oil patch lived, Odessa was for the roughnecks. The rest of the state had the opinion that there was NOTHING good in Odessa, unless you liked rowdy bars and bawdy houses.

Except the Permian Panthers. The Panthers built a dynasty with scruffy, undersized kids from Odessa, a town famous for being bad. They did it without the talent of the big city schools, Odessa, like Katy today, was never a recruiting hotbed. They did it because the folks there had a single minded determination to build the best damn football program in the state, and they did. Ocassionally, they took the obsession to far. The dynasties that followed Permian copied their blueprint. Nevertheless, Odessa Permian remains the most unlikely dynasty of Texas HS football, and my winner.

By the way, for any Odessa folks on the board, my description of Odessa is not an accurate description of MY PERSONAL feelings, but rather the feelings of the state in general. Three of the four people I love most in the world are from Odessa, and I know that most of the folks out there are decent, hardworking folks. Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.
I'm going with Judson and I'll give you a few reasons why I'm picking them over Permian.

In spite of the Midland/Odessa thing, that area still has had more money than the Judson area. Judson started as a small, basically country, school in the early 60's and built their way from Class B to 5A. Because of the military presence, a good portion of the Judson school population is transient and the fan support won't be like other top programs. I place more value on recent success than past success because I think it's harder to win now than it used to be.

I like the city of Odessa a lot and have a good time there everytime I go. There is a mysticism about Ratliff Stadium.

[grayowl60]

i was thinking operm and plano won their first titles in the same year. i know it was plano's first deep run in the po's.
Plano state Championships:
2A: 65, 67
3A: 71
4A (largest classification): 77
5A: 86,87,94....lost state finals 93

[lonny23]

Plano state Championships:
2A: 65, 67
3A: 71
4A (largest classification): 77
5A: 86,87,94....lost state finals 93
How dare they win a title the year I was born?:mad:

At least they got one right!:p

[mojo61]

.....By the way, for any Odessa folks on the board, my description of Odessa is not an accurate description of MY PERSONAL feelings, but rather the feelings of the state in general...... and I know that most of the folks out there are decent, hardworking folks. Still, Odessa did (and in West Texas still does )have that image.

Firebird's description of Odessa's image is accurate, but it always surprises me to hear Od. characterized that way. However, I'd known a long time before the bk. or movie that Od. was regarded that way. Od. is no more evil than Abilene, where I live, or Midland, San Angelo, Vicoria, Austin, Brownwood, or just about any fairlly lg. town or city in Texas (I've lived in all of those places except Victoria but did spend a good bit of time there). Maybe having grown up in Od., I was blinded by my surroundings there & just can't see the wickedness of the place (however, if I were blinded, then I wouldn't be able to recognize my error anyway, would I?). So...maybe I'm not one that should comment on Firebird's statement. His description does interest me, though. And the bk. & the movie will just perpetuate that image forever.

[lonny23]

Firebird's description of Odessa's image is accurate, but it always surprises me to hear Od. characterized that way. However, I'd known a long time before the bk. or movie that Od. was regarded that way. Od. is no more evil than Abilene, where I live, or Midland, San Angelo, Vicoria, Austin, Brownwood, or just about any fairlly lg. town or city in Texas (I've lived in all of those places except Victoria but did spend a good bit of time there). Maybe having grown up in Od., I was blinded by my surroundings there & just can't see the wickedness of the place (however, if I were blinded, then I wouldn't be able to recognize my error anyway, would I?). So...maybe I'm not one that should comment on Firebird's statement. His description does interest me, though. And the bk. & the movie will just perpetuate that image forever.
I don't think Odessa is as wicked as they get portrayed. The place is not overrun with strip clubs and prostitutes.

[Firebird]

Firebird's description of Odessa's image is accurate, but it always surprises me to hear Od. characterized that way. However, I'd known a long time before the bk. or movie that Od. was regarded that way. Od. is no more evil than Abilene, where I live, or Midland, San Angelo, Vicoria, Austin, Brownwood, or just about any fairlly lg. town or city in Texas (I've lived in all of those places except Victoria but did spend a good bit of time there). Maybe having grown up in Od., I was blinded by my surroundings there & just can't see the wickedness of the place (however, if I were blinded, then I wouldn't be able to recognize my error anyway, would I?). So...maybe I'm not one that should comment on Firebird's statement. His description does interest me, though. And the bk. & the movie will just perpetuate that image forever.


EVERYWHERE is more wicked than Abilene:D Seriously, you probably can't find a more sober, strait-laced good sized town outside of Utah.

I love Odessa... my parents are from there, and I had many fond memories of vacations there with my Grandmother. I think it was possible for the good folks in Odessa (the vast majority of people there) to live their entire lives without seeing some of the others stuff. But, Odessa had its rough spots. It is true that for several years in the 80's, Odessa had the highest murder rate in the country.

[lonny23]

EVERYWHERE is more wicked than Abilene:D Seriously, you probably can't find a more sober, strait-laced good sized town outside of Utah.

I love Odessa... my parents are from there, and I had many fond memories of vacations there with my Grandmother. I think it was possible for the good folks in Odessa (the vast majority of people there) to live their entire lives without seeing some of the others stuff. But, Odessa had its rough spots. It is true that for several years in the 80's, Odessa had the highest murder rate in the country.
Yeah, Abilene is more tame than Wichita Falls.

[mojo61]

At least the girls there (Abilene) "don't treat you mean." And evidently the boys don't either judging fm. Abilene's last playoff game. :D

[dragonsdaddy]

At least the girls there (Abilene) "don't treat you mean." And evidently the boys don't either judging fm. Abilene's last playoff game. :D
ouch. i guess the comeback would be something along the lines of-"at least we were there to play, not home with an air pump and some converse all-stars"

[mojo61]

I guess Abilene will get me for that one, won't they. :) All in good fun.