View Full Version : 5A Team of the Decade Vote
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 09:48 AM
Here it is. Let's put it to a vote. try to be objective and of course this won't really mean anything but it may be funn and it may help the "Has Katy Surpassed SLC as team of the Decade Thread.:eek:Maybe.:p
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 10:24 AM
8 views and 3 votes. Come on. We need everyone to vote so we can settle this.
Favpack
12-22-2009, 10:27 AM
Judson fans may with-hold their votes. :D
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 10:51 AM
Judson fans may with-hold their votes. :D
I almost included them. No offense to Judson fans.
RedRage00
12-22-2009, 10:56 AM
Judson is the Team of the 90s ;)
Carroll is the team of this decade, but I don't think they will be for the next one.
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Judson is the Team of the 90s ;)
Carroll is the team of this decade, but I don't think they will be for the next one.
Has there ever been a team that has dominated over a 20 year period?
svhorns
12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Tie. Katy and SLC. This thread sucks.
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 11:26 AM
Tie. Katy and SLC. This thread sucks.
I had considered SV as one of the possibles. 2 state losses and 2 semi final loses not to mention the 4A work earlier in the decade. Why does it suck?
RedRage00
12-22-2009, 11:26 AM
Has there ever been a team that has dominated over a 20 year period?
Judson did a lot over 20 years...starting in 1983.
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 11:28 AM
Judson did a lot over 20 years...starting in 1983.
I have to admit that when I moved to Tx in 1997 I had heard of Judson. Them and Permian. That is a long time to dominate in this state.
TrinityTrojan80
12-22-2009, 11:40 AM
I have to admit that when I moved to Tx in 1997 I had heard of Judson. Them and Permian. That is a long time to dominate in this state.
I voted for the Dragons!
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 11:57 AM
I voted for the Dragons!
Of course you did. Most Trinity folks are much to humble to be homers. I voted for Carroll too but I have to tell you, it was very close in my mind. 1 point in one of the hardest fought football games I have ever seen is not much separation.
FatBoy of Troy
12-22-2009, 12:00 PM
I voted for the Dragons!
I did too. We got a ways to go to match what they have accomplshed.:notworthy
svhorns
12-22-2009, 12:14 PM
I had considered SV as one of the possibles. 2 state losses and 2 semi final loses not to mention the 4A work earlier in the decade. Why does it suck?
It will start up a lot of bickering and bs. Both Katy and SLC deserve the team of the decade moniker as both teams have accomplished amazing feats. Katy has accomplished things SLC hasn't and SLC has accomplished things that Katy hasn't.
TIE TIE TIE TIE TIE TIE
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 12:16 PM
I should have listed tie as a vote.
THSBandDad
12-22-2009, 12:22 PM
I should have listed tie as a vote.
:eek: Then you would have had to list all of the possible tie combinations!!
85Roughneck
12-22-2009, 12:29 PM
TOD = Katy Tigers
Kat-na-hat
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
How about a thread for COD, Coach of the Decade, :). Most improved of the Deacde, MIOD. :)
AE 8008
12-22-2009, 12:45 PM
westlake should at least be included in the discussion, although maybe not be the best team.
i wouldnt have lufkin on the list
Trinity Alum
12-22-2009, 12:49 PM
i voted for the dragons!
+1
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 12:52 PM
westlake should at least be included in the discussion, although maybe not be the best team.
i wouldnt have lufkin on the list
Good point. I am sure there are others. Looks like the voteing is going along party lines except for the Trinity guys. This won't solve anything but at least we can say our little group here had a vote on it.:)
BlakeJ
12-22-2009, 12:56 PM
Tie. Katy and SLC. This thread sucks.
I agree 100% From the capital T to the period at the end.
KT1993
12-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Is there realy such a thing as TOD? Or is it something us fans made up?
AE 8008
12-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Good point. I am sure there are others. Looks like the voteing is going along party lines except for the Trinity guys. This won't solve anything but at least we can say our little group here had a vote on it.:)
i voted Carroll btw.
Katy was good, but nobody was ever feared like the Dragons, except 2006 Trinity perhaps. There were times when i honestly feared them
Bill4par
12-22-2009, 01:00 PM
I gave my homer vote to Allen.
Realisitically, SLC has earned it b/c of their wins, state titles and SOS !!!
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 01:04 PM
Is there realy such a thing as TOD? Or is it something us fans made up?
We made it up.
Trojan Fan
12-22-2009, 01:16 PM
I voted for Trinity cause im a homer.....I think SLC has to be the team of the Decade...
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 01:18 PM
So that is 2 votes for Carroll that were cast for other teams. Thanks for the honesty.:)
Warbird_Dad
12-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Slc
Favpack
12-22-2009, 01:55 PM
How about a thread for COD, Coach of the Decade, :). Most improved of the Deacde, MIOD. :)
WSAD - We Sucked All Decade (probably no fans of really bad teams)
the_phoenix612
12-22-2009, 02:06 PM
This poll isn't biased at all. 1 team for all of Houston to vote for and DFW gets to split their vote?
the_phoenix612
12-22-2009, 02:08 PM
Tie. Katy and SLC. This thread sucks.
This. Unfortunately, this point of view doesn't fly far in the other thread.
DragonFan0316
12-22-2009, 02:08 PM
This poll isn't biased at all. 1 team for all of Houston to vote for and DFW gets to split their vote?
Okay so I am not the best at creating polls.
SLCDad
12-22-2009, 03:20 PM
I voted for SLC but Trinity is a VERY close 2nd. It's tough not to vote SLC and Trinity in a tie.
Katy is fantastic, but 3rd in this poll due to their weaker SOS, especially their weaker playoff road every year.
Thats the facts.
AbEagleFan
12-22-2009, 03:34 PM
Sorry SLC fans. Love ya guys but Katy's consistency over the past 10 years gave them my vote.
RedRage00
12-22-2009, 03:37 PM
How about a thread for COD, Coach of the Decade, :). Most improved of the Deacde, MIOD. :)
How about the worst experiment of the decade:
Victoria Memorial, RIP
2000-2009
lol
Warbird_Dad
12-22-2009, 03:39 PM
This poll isn't biased at all. 1 team for all of Houston to vote for and DFW gets to split their vote?
No flame intended but who else besides Katy would it be from H Town?
svhorns
12-22-2009, 03:41 PM
I voted for SLC but Trinity is a VERY close 2nd. It's tough not to vote SLC and Trinity in a tie.
Katy is fantastic, but 3rd in this poll due to their weaker SOS, especially their weaker playoff road every year.
Thats the facts.
SLC I can agree with but who was more state championships this decade ET or Katy?
RedRage00
12-22-2009, 03:43 PM
It's a tie...both have the same amount of state titles and they are 1-1 against each other in the finals.
True, Katy always has an easier road to the final but they still won FOUR STATE TITLES!
Gator4ever
12-22-2009, 03:43 PM
I voted for Katy......
eagledad60
12-22-2009, 04:00 PM
What no Abilene? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... team of the DECADE, i'm sorry I thought it was for team of the CENTURY, My bad.:p:p:p
Nsalumni
12-22-2009, 04:11 PM
No flame intended but who else besides Katy would it be from H Town?
North shore... Thats the only one close to it..
I truly believe if katy were put in d1 and north shore in d2, youd have the same results, katy might have 2 as opposed to ns 1 but otherwise i think it would be about the same.
Trinity Trojan Fan For Li
12-22-2009, 05:20 PM
I definitely had to vote for SLC. No team could run that spread offense like SLC did when Dodge was there.
Awesome accomplishment by SLC.
jbusch
12-22-2009, 06:17 PM
i voted for the dragons!
arrrrggggghhhhh
jbusch
12-22-2009, 06:23 PM
I definitely had to vote for SLC. No team could run that spread offense like SLC did when Dodge was there.
Awesome accomplishment by SLC.
Are you NutZ? - Geez this ain't the time to be sandbagging, save that for the rest of the threads
dragonsdaddy
12-22-2009, 06:26 PM
i refuse to vote until the actual end of the decade which is after next seaon. i will lean toward either kt or et if it goes as i predict it will.
dragonsdaddy
12-22-2009, 06:28 PM
What no Abilene? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... team of the DECADE, i'm sorry I thought it was for team of the CENTURY, My bad.:p:p:p
you need to update that calender, dude. you know the feed store in hamby or anson will be giving away new ones every year. next years needs to have a 2010 somewhere on every page.
Are you NutZ? - Geez this ain't the time to be sandbagging, save that for the rest of the threads
:laugh
cyfallsbooster2
12-22-2009, 06:55 PM
My vote is not available in the list. I have two trains of thought.
SLC beacuse they were so dominant in the first half making it and winning it in a much more difficult bracket. But they have not stood out since Dodge left.
Katy did it at the first, middle and last of the decade. Much more consistant. But, they made it to the ship games on a much easier path.
Cases could be, and have been, made on each side. Both valid, both flawed. So "no vote" for me this time around.
One thing I think you will see is that Katy will be winning more ships than SLC over the next 5 years.;)
Trojan Fan
12-22-2009, 07:21 PM
SLC I can agree with but who was more state championships this decade ET or Katy?
Well, we might have one more if it was not for Southlake....2006...
The fake punt call heard around the world...( or at least all over the metroplex)
Katy is a great program its hard to pick one team for the decade...
Trojan Fan
12-22-2009, 07:24 PM
What no Abilene? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... team of the DECADE, i'm sorry I thought it was for team of the CENTURY, My bad.:p:p:p
Hey that was last Century...
You need to wait 90 years for the team of this century...
You might want to pace yourself...:)
KT1993
12-23-2009, 01:46 AM
Katy........ was more consistant over 10 yrs
alleneagle4
12-23-2009, 03:03 AM
I had to vote for SLC just because of their "relationship" with us in A*Town.....
although, I pulled some numbers together....
Katy's SC Appearances averaged to 2005.333
SLC's SC Appearances averaged to 2004
Katy's SC Victories averaged to 2004.5
SLC's SC Victories averaged to 2004.25
(was looking for closest to 2005.5 in each)
SLC averaged 15.5 point differential in each SC Victory
Katy averaged 12.75 point differential in each SC Victory
Obviously, Katy and SLC each had 4 Titles, but Katy did have one more appearance.
Katy appeared in 3 back to back, but SLC appeared in 5 back to back
SLC's were the five middle years
Katy appeared in the first SC and last SC of the decade.....
Katy and SLC are 1-1 against each other
The numbers were so much closer than I expected they would be, and either could be argued, but my heart said the Dragons get it......
The homer in me says pick them also just because DFW and Allen losing to them half of the years this decade in the PO's.
Also, I honestly believe if Katy was in the DFW, they wouldn't get out of the Region I at least two of the years they won state, maybe three....
Congrats to both Schools/Teams though! I don't see another school having that much dominance in the near future
ALLENFANDINGO5
12-23-2009, 05:22 AM
Voted for Carroll, just edging out Katy. The total body of work makes what they accomplished more impressive.
No "tie" forced me into homerism. I'd put Katy & Carroll in a tie with Trinity not far behind.
4-4........1-1
I give each their champinship years.
2001 & 2009 ........ I don't see a clear advantage for either.
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 07:11 AM
I like to think of who has the highest % of being ranked in the post-season Top 5, over the decade. Why? Because SLC wasn't in 5A, until 2002! Katy was winning a State Title in 2000, while SLC was still in 4A.
2000
1. Katy
2. Midland Lee
3. John Tyler
4. Austin Westlake
5. The Woodlands
6. North Mesquite
7. Arlington Lamar
8. Abilene Cooper
9. Coppell
10. Duncanville
2001
1. Lufkin
2. Mesquite
3. Spring Westfield
4. Austin Westlake
5. The Woodlands
6. Euless Trinity
7. San Antonio Taft
8. Desoto
9. Allen
10. Plano
2002
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Converse Judson
3. Smithson Valley
4. Lufkin
5. Midland HS
6. Austin Westlake
7. Katy
8. Longview
9. Arlington Sam Houston
10. North Mesquite
2003
1. North Shore
2. Katy
3. Southlake Carroll
4. The Woodlands
5. Allen
6. Garland
7. Tyler Lee
8. Jersey Village
9. Leander
10. Dallas Carter
2004
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Smithson Valley
3. Tyler Lee
4. Spring Westfield
5. Lufkin
6. Clear Lake
7. Katy
8. Converse Judson
9. Euless Trinity
10. Duncanville
2005
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Euless Trinity
3. Converse Judson
4. Spring Westfield
5. Katy
6. Cy Falls
7. Smithson Valley
8. Lufkin
9. Copperas Cove
10. North Shore
2006
1. Cedar Hill
2. Southlake Carroll
3. Euless Trinity
4. Allen
5. Round Rock
6. Lufkin
7. Garland
8. Austin Westlake
9. Pearland
10. Longview
2007
1. Katy
2. Euless Trinity
3. Plano
4. Pflugerville
5. Converse Judson
6. North Shore
7. SA Madison
8. Spring Westfield
9. Arlington Bowie
10. Pearland
2008
1. Allen
2. Fort Bend Hightower
3. North Shore
4. Round Rock Stony Point
5. Euless Trinity
6. The Woodlands
7. Cinco Ranch
8. Katy
9. Pearland
10. Wylie
2009
1. Abilene
T3. Cedar Hill
T3. Euless Trinity
4. Round Rock Stony Point
5. The Woodlands
6. Austin Westlake
7. Katy
8. Klein
9. Tyler Lee
10. Arlington Bowie
Katy has 4 finishes (40%) in the Top 5 (10 yrs).
SLC has 5 finishes (63%) in the Top 5 (8 yrs).
That says the most, IMO! Each may have 4 state titles, but when SLC won their titles they hands-down the #1 team in the state, with 2006 being the hardest to judge w/ Cedar Hill in the mix. Katy was hands-down the #1 team in the state in 2000 and 2007! 2003 = North Shore... and 2008 = Allen and a host of others, who beat Katy. This year, The Woodlands, Abilene, RRSP, Euless Trinity, and Westlake ranked ahead of SLC, IMO. Euless Trinity easily comes in at #3., as the team of the decade... w/ 5 post-season appearances in the Top 5.
Dallascaper
12-23-2009, 07:59 AM
I voted for SLC because they have four championships this century and nobody else has more than three.
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 08:18 AM
I voted for SLC because they have four championships this century and nobody else has more than three.
Katy State Titles from 2000-2009 = 2000, 2003, 2007, 2008!
SLC State Titles from 2002-2009 = 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006!
Difference being SLC finished in the post-season Top 5, 5 times... and Katy finished in the post-season Top 5, 4 times... but Katy played 10 years on 5A, and SLC played 8 years on 5A!
slcdragonfan
12-23-2009, 09:00 AM
I somehow clicked the wrong one. Please subtract one from Katy and add one to SLC. Blast it!
SLCDad
12-23-2009, 09:17 AM
Computer power ratings aren't perfect but I believe they are better than homer opinion. They treat teams equally. Computer models can take into consideration games over a long period, strength of opponents, etc.
Here is the data for 2003 through 2009. This data excludes a state title season for both Katy and SLC.
Rank ---- School ------- Rating ----- Schedule Strength
1 ------- Carroll -------- 58.3 ------- 37.3
2 ------- Trinity -------- 53.8 ------- 34.5
3 ------- Katy ---------- 52.2 ------- 28.4
Freeman Model - 2003 through 2009 combined (pre 2003 data is not available).
Dallascaper
12-23-2009, 09:42 AM
Katy State Titles from 2000-2009 = 2000, 2003, 2007, 2008!
SLC State Titles from 2002-2009 = 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006!
Difference being SLC finished in the post-season Top 5, 5 times... and Katy finished in the post-season Top 5, 4 times... but Katy played 10 years on 5A, and SLC played 8 years on 5A!
2000 was in the 20th century and therefore doesn't count.
Katy: 2003,2007,2008
ET: 2005, 2007, 2009
SLC: 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006
I actually couldn't choose between Katy & SLC for TOTD, so I chose to look at who had the most championships this century as the tie-breaker.
85Roughneck
12-23-2009, 09:46 AM
I somehow clicked the wrong one. Please subtract one from Katy and add one to SLC. Blast it!
your brain, eyes, and heart are led by your finger. at least your finger is honest with itself when it clicks the mouse on Katy ... your vote stays for Katy. Nyah Nyah !!! :p
LOL!!! ;):D
BlakeJ
12-23-2009, 09:47 AM
Did someone really vote for Allen?? WTF??? :laugh
Thats why I hate these polls. :)
85Roughneck
12-23-2009, 09:49 AM
2000 was in the 20th century and therefore doesn't count.
Katy: 2003,2007,2008
ET: 2005, 2007, 2009
SLC: 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006
I actually couldn't choose between Katy & SLC for TOTD, so I chose to look at who had the most championships this century as the tie-breaker.
while I respect your opinion I know that the general consensus of the folks on the board will tell you that the decade goes from 2000-2009 so the Katy 'ship in 2000 counts.
85Roughneck
12-23-2009, 09:50 AM
Did someone really vote for Allen?? WTF??? :laugh
Thats why I hate these polls. :)
come on now, Allen is good ... maybe not TOD good but they are good and the guy that voted for them even said it was a homer vote.
Favpack
12-23-2009, 09:51 AM
2000 was in the 20th century and therefore doesn't count.
Katy: 2003,2007,2008
ET: 2005, 2007, 2009
SLC: 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006
I actually couldn't choose between Katy & SLC for TOTD, so I chose to look at who had the most championships this century as the tie-breaker.
?? Wrong-ola. You've already forgotten Y2k?
toonman
12-23-2009, 09:55 AM
I think most are saying it is Katy or Carroll; so let’s look at what each team has done in the 2000’s
Katy
2000 - Champs - 7
2001 - Round 2 - 2
2002 - Round 5 - 5
2003 - Champs - 7
2004 - Round 4 - 4
2005 - State Finals - 6
2006 - Round 4 - 4
2007 - Champs - 7
2008 - Champs - 7
2009 - State Finals - 6
TOTAL = 55
Carroll
2000 - Did not compete - 0
2001 - Did not compete - 0
2002 - Champs - 7
2003 - State Finals - 6
2004 - Champs - 7
2005 - Champs - 7
2006 - Champs - 7
2007 - Round 3 - 3
2008 - Round 2 - 2
2009 - Round 3 - 3
TOTAL = 42
Only in 2001 did Katy fail to get to Round 4 or beyond; where Carroll has not done that for each of the past 3 years.
If you apply a simple scoring system – 1 Point of each Round of the Play-offs and an additional point for winning a State Championship; you will see that in the 2000s; Katy scored 55 Points and Carroll scored 42 – Katy has been 32% more successful than Carroll in Texas 5A Football in the 2000’s.
So Katy has 2 more years than Carroll, so even if we apply Carroll’s average of 5.25 points a year; this would add 10.5 points to the Carroll score total giving 52.5 points; Katy will still be more successful than Carroll.
Katy has achieved the consistent dominance throughout the 2000’s that Carroll could only dream about outside the Championship years.
OakTreeUp-n-Out
12-23-2009, 09:56 AM
nm
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 10:17 AM
I think most are saying it is Katy or Carroll; so let’s look at what each team has done in the 2000’s
Katy
2000 - Champs - 7
2001 - Round 2 - 2
2002 - Round 5 - 5
2003 - Champs - 7
2004 - Round 4 - 4
2005 - State Finals - 6
2006 - Round 4 - 4
2007 - Champs - 7
2008 - Champs - 7
2009 - State Finals - 6
TOTAL = 55
Carroll
2000 - Did not compete - 0
2001 - Did not compete - 0
2002 - Champs - 7
2003 - State Finals - 6
2004 - Champs - 7
2005 - Champs - 7
2006 - Champs - 7
2007 - Round 3 - 3
2008 - Round 2 - 2
2009 - Round 3 - 3
TOTAL = 42
Only in 2001 did Katy fail to get to Round 4 or beyond; where Carroll has not done that for each of the past 3 years.
If you apply a simple scoring system – 1 Point of each Round of the Play-offs and an additional point for winning a State Championship; you will see that in the 2000s; Katy scored 55 Points and Carroll scored 42 – Katy has been 32% more successful than Carroll in Texas 5A Football in the 2000’s.
So Katy has 2 more years than Carroll, so even if we apply Carroll’s average of 5.25 points a year; this would add 10.5 points to the Carroll score total giving 52.5 points; Katy will still be more successful than Carroll.
Katy has achieved the consistent dominance throughout the 2000’s that Carroll could only dream about outside the Championship years.
Two points:
1. Region III/Region IV - tell me how many champs - other than North Shore - have come out Region III/Region IV, since 2000? I can give you several that have won, from Region I/Region II... Abilene, Allen, SLC, Cedar Hill, Mesquite, and Euless Trinity. I don't think you can use the mindset of saying Katy has won more, in the playoffs... considering Katy has clearly played weaker competition, coming out of Region III/IV!
2. How many of the past 10 years can we agree that Katy was the best team in the state, in a particular year? I say 2 times.. 2000 and 2007. How many of the past 8 years can we agree that SLC was the best team in the state, in a particular year? I say 3 times... 2002, 2004, and 2005! 2006 is questionable because Cedar Hill was VERY potent.
I think Todd Dodge's SLC teams were the cream of the crop, and there's only 2 Katy teams that could match SLC, from 2002-2007... the '03 and '07 teams. Other than that.... 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2006 SLC teams would crush any of the other 8 Katy teams, from this century.
ray1301
12-23-2009, 10:18 AM
I think most are saying it is Katy or Carroll; so let’s look at what each team has done in the 2000’s
Katy
2000 - Champs - 7
2001 - Round 2 - 2
2002 - Round 5 - 5
2003 - Champs - 7
2004 - Round 4 - 4
2005 - State Finals - 6
2006 - Round 4 - 4
2007 - Champs - 7
2008 - Champs - 7
2009 - State Finals - 6
TOTAL = 55
Carroll
2000 - Did not compete - 0
2001 - Did not compete - 0
2002 - Champs - 7
2003 - State Finals - 6
2004 - Champs - 7
2005 - Champs - 7
2006 - Champs - 7
2007 - Round 3 - 3
2008 - Round 2 - 2
2009 - Round 3 - 3
TOTAL = 42
Only in 2001 did Katy fail to get to Round 4 or beyond; where Carroll has not done that for each of the past 3 years.
If you apply a simple scoring system – 1 Point of each Round of the Play-offs and an additional point for winning a State Championship; you will see that in the 2000s; Katy scored 55 Points and Carroll scored 42 – Katy has been 32% more successful than Carroll in Texas 5A Football in the 2000’s.
So Katy has 2 more years than Carroll, so even if we apply Carroll’s average of 5.25 points a year; this would add 10.5 points to the Carroll score total giving 52.5 points; Katy will still be more successful than Carroll.
Katy has achieved the consistent dominance throughout the 2000’s that Carroll could only dream about outside the Championship years.
But you forgot that Katy doesn't play anybody (Sarcasm to the max!)
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 10:19 AM
2000 was in the 20th century and therefore doesn't count.
Katy: 2003,2007,2008
ET: 2005, 2007, 2009
SLC: 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006
I actually couldn't choose between Katy & SLC for TOTD, so I chose to look at who had the most championships this century as the tie-breaker.
Self-pwnage is a beautiful thing.
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 10:22 AM
But you forgot that Katy doesn't really play anybody in Region III/IV!
I agree!
BlakeJ
12-23-2009, 10:27 AM
come on now, Allen is good ... maybe not TOD good but they are good and the guy that voted for them even said it was a homer vote.
I know its all in fun this poll isnt going to change a thing, I just think these polls are overrated. Dang there I go with that word again...lol.
I didnt vote because 4=4 and it doesnt matter how you got there or what you did....you won...and thats the goal. Both are great programs and tops in the nation as a whole, SLC and Katy are two storied and historically respected programs. I have that feeling that Trinity is about to take Texas and the nation by storm this coming decade.
DragonFan0316
12-23-2009, 11:21 AM
I know its all in fun this poll isnt going to change a thing, I just think these polls are overrated. Dang there I go with that word again...lol.
I didnt vote because 4=4 and it doesnt matter how you got there or what you did....you won...and thats the goal. Both are great programs and tops in the nation as a whole, SLC and Katy are two storied and historically respected programs. I have that feeling that Trinity is about to take Texas and the nation by storm this coming decade.
Your right. I created the poll for fun but as of now it shows a 42 to 42 tie between Carroll and Katy. It reenforces what I said on the rhetoric thread and what you have said here. There are many great teams in Texas. When this debate started a year ago I never gave TOD a thought. We will see how many more vote and how this fun poll ends up.
DragonFan0316
12-23-2009, 11:26 AM
I think most are saying it is Katy or Carroll; so let’s look at what each team has done in the 2000’s
Katy
2000 - Champs - 7
2001 - Round 2 - 2
2002 - Round 5 - 5
2003 - Champs - 7
2004 - Round 4 - 4
2005 - State Finals - 6
2006 - Round 4 - 4
2007 - Champs - 7
2008 - Champs - 7
2009 - State Finals - 6
TOTAL = 55
Carroll
2000 - Did not compete - 0
2001 - Did not compete - 0
2002 - Champs - 7
2003 - State Finals - 6
2004 - Champs - 7
2005 - Champs - 7
2006 - Champs - 7
2007 - Round 3 - 3
2008 - Round 2 - 2
2009 - Round 3 - 3
TOTAL = 42
Only in 2001 did Katy fail to get to Round 4 or beyond; where Carroll has not done that for each of the past 3 years.
If you apply a simple scoring system – 1 Point of each Round of the Play-offs and an additional point for winning a State Championship; you will see that in the 2000s; Katy scored 55 Points and Carroll scored 42 – Katy has been 32% more successful than Carroll in Texas 5A Football in the 2000’s.
So Katy has 2 more years than Carroll, so even if we apply Carroll’s average of 5.25 points a year; this would add 10.5 points to the Carroll score total giving 52.5 points; Katy will still be more successful than Carroll.
Katy has achieved the consistent dominance throughout the 2000’s that Carroll could only dream about outside the Championship years.
Easy buddy. The Dragon Counsel has a bunch of us looking for a pole, some tar and feathers...J/K;):D
DragonFan0316
12-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Did someone really vote for Allen?? WTF??? :laugh
Thats why I hate these polls. :)
My bad. I am a metroplex guy and tried to include other teams I knew. In hindsight I should have listed:
Katy
Carroll
Trinity
LufkinPantherRules
12-23-2009, 11:29 AM
westlake should at least be included in the discussion, although maybe not be the best team.
i wouldnt have lufkin on the list
I agree but i wouldn't have allen either we have same amount of state championships this decade and more wins
DragonFan0316
12-23-2009, 11:30 AM
I somehow clicked the wrong one. Please subtract one from Katy and add one to SLC. Blast it!
Ouch! This is almost as bad as Hartley missing a makeable field goal:o:D
crunked9
12-23-2009, 11:48 AM
Ok, first off, this is 5A Program of the Decade, not team.
Ok, so we know it is either Katy or SLC.
But now, what is the best 5A Team of the Decade......
DragonFan0316
12-23-2009, 12:01 PM
Ok, first off, this is 5A Program of the Decade, not team.
Ok, so we know it is either Katy or SLC.
But now, what is the best 5A Team of the Decade......
The 2002 Dragons of course. Only team to ever win a state title their first season in 5A. Plus they had some buff receivers and a guy fielding punts that was outstanding.:rolleyes:;)
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 12:59 PM
Ok, first off, this is 5A Program of the Decade, not team.
Ok, so we know it is either Katy or SLC.
But now, what is the best 5A Team of the Decade......
2003 North Shore. Next question?
farmerfan
12-23-2009, 02:37 PM
Good point. I am sure there are others. Looks like the voteing is going along party lines except for the Trinity guys. This won't solve anything but at least we can say our little group here had a vote on it.:)
It is not a good point, Westlake has not accomplished as much as Lufkin has this decade or anybody else you have up there. The choices you have up there seem to be fine with the exception of leaving off Judson but nobody in their right mind would vote for Judson to be TOD
BackNBlack97
12-23-2009, 03:47 PM
SLC > Katy >= Trinity
AE 8008
12-23-2009, 04:01 PM
I like to think of who has the highest % of being ranked in the post-season Top 5, over the decade. Why? Because SLC wasn't in 5A, until 2002! Katy was winning a State Title in 2000, while SLC was still in 4A.
2000
1. Katy
2. Midland Lee
3. John Tyler
4. Austin Westlake
5. The Woodlands
6. North Mesquite
7. Arlington Lamar
8. Abilene Cooper
9. Coppell
10. Duncanville
2001
1. Lufkin
2. Mesquite
3. Spring Westfield
4. Austin Westlake
5. The Woodlands
6. Euless Trinity
7. San Antonio Taft
8. Desoto
9. Allen
10. Plano
2002
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Converse Judson
3. Smithson Valley
4. Lufkin
5. Midland HS
6. Austin Westlake
7. Katy
8. Longview
9. Arlington Sam Houston
10. North Mesquite
2003
1. North Shore
2. Katy
3. Southlake Carroll
4. The Woodlands
5. Allen
6. Garland
7. Tyler Lee
8. Jersey Village
9. Leander
10. Dallas Carter
2004
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Smithson Valley
3. Tyler Lee
4. Spring Westfield
5. Lufkin
6. Clear Lake
7. Katy
8. Converse Judson
9. Euless Trinity
10. Duncanville
2005
1. Southlake Carroll
2. Euless Trinity
3. Converse Judson
4. Spring Westfield
5. Katy
6. Cy Falls
7. Smithson Valley
8. Lufkin
9. Copperas Cove
10. North Shore
2006
1. Cedar Hill
2. Southlake Carroll
3. Euless Trinity
4. Allen
5. Round Rock
6. Lufkin
7. Garland
8. Austin Westlake
9. Pearland
10. Longview
2007
1. Katy
2. Euless Trinity
3. Plano
4. Pflugerville
5. Converse Judson
6. North Shore
7. SA Madison
8. Spring Westfield
9. Arlington Bowie
10. Pearland
2008
1. Allen
2. Fort Bend Hightower
3. North Shore
4. Round Rock Stony Point
5. Euless Trinity
6. The Woodlands
7. Cinco Ranch
8. Katy
9. Pearland
10. Wylie
2009
1. Abilene
T3. Cedar Hill
T3. Euless Trinity
4. Round Rock Stony Point
5. The Woodlands
6. Austin Westlake
7. Katy
8. Klein
9. Tyler Lee
10. Arlington Bowie
Katy has 4 finishes (40%) in the Top 5 (10 yrs).
SLC has 5 finishes (63%) in the Top 5 (8 yrs).
That says the most, IMO! Each may have 4 state titles, but when SLC won their titles they hands-down the #1 team in the state, with 2006 being the hardest to judge w/ Cedar Hill in the mix. Katy was hands-down the #1 team in the state in 2000 and 2007! 2003 = North Shore... and 2008 = Allen and a host of others, who beat Katy. This year, The Woodlands, Abilene, RRSP, Euless Trinity, and Westlake ranked ahead of SLC, IMO. Euless Trinity easily comes in at #3., as the team of the decade... w/ 5 post-season appearances in the Top 5.
i think you forgot about Abilene in '04 and '07, but the rest looks good
Ok, first off, this is 5A Program of the Decade, not team.
Ok, so we know it is either Katy or SLC.
But now, what is the best 5A Team of the Decade......
2005 Carroll.
toonman
12-23-2009, 05:38 PM
2005 Carroll.
I agree with you on this point.
da hawaiian
12-23-2009, 05:50 PM
It was a tough vote but TGO's reasoning won me over. With 2 less years to work with and they still have 4 trophys and 5 championship game appearances.
I'd have gone for a tie easily if it were an option
rwilleby
12-23-2009, 06:03 PM
Team, 2005 SLC
Program, Katy...
cougmantx
12-23-2009, 06:15 PM
Best team of the decade...2007 Katy Tigers...no doubt!
usc 619
12-23-2009, 06:17 PM
Katy by a photo finish....WTF is Lufkin,Trinity & Allen even doing in the poll LOL
da hawaiian
12-23-2009, 06:23 PM
Katy by a photo finish....WTF is Lufkin,Trinity & Allen even doing in the poll LOL
to steal votes from SLC ofcourse
oops thread started by a Carroll poster, probably didn't see the inevitable
ThEgReAtOnE
12-23-2009, 07:11 PM
Best team of the decade...2007 Katy Tigers...no doubt!
2007 Katy would've struggled to beat 2003 North Shore. That 2003 defense was BEASTLY. And, though 2007 Katy was superb... 2003 North Shore, 2005 SLC, 2006 Cedar Hill, 2006 Euless Trinity, and 2006 SLC would've likely beaten them. Those teams were just all-around better.
Favpack
12-23-2009, 07:32 PM
I'm gonna flip a coin 10 times and see what happens.
The Wet Mustard
12-23-2009, 08:44 PM
2007 Katy would've struggled to beat 2003 North Shore. That 2003 defense was BEASTLY. And, though 2007 Katy was superb... 2003 North Shore, 2005 SLC, 2006 Cedar Hill, 2006 Euless Trinity, and 2006 SLC would've likely beaten them. Those teams were just all-around better.
You say all around better, but what glaring weakness did the 07 Katy team have, other than a bad showing on Homecoming
The Coaching is as good as SLC and ET during the years you listed and better that Chill And NS
The Katy team was balanced offensively and had a very good defense
On offense you had 3 Div 1 guys and a few Juco level
on Defense 2 Db's that start at Tamu and an OLB that will be at baylor next yr. A D-lineman that went to Airforce to play FB and another that would have been likely D-1 if not been an idiot and gone the MMA route.
That is a very good showing for a Katy team 6-8 D1 guys on one team.
Not saying they would beat these other teams hands down but they hold a chance. I just dont see any weakness.
I'd like to thank folks for clearing things up in my mind.
Originally, I thought this should be a tie based on giving both Katy and Carroll four years each for their championships with the other two seasons being equal.
However, given logic on this thread and the other long one, I've decided that what I viewed as a homer vote was actually correct.
2001 - Based on SOS and the fact that many don't even think the Dragon's records should not even be included goes to the Tigers.
2009 - Again using SOS and the fact that Katy won against common opponents (North Shore = win , Marcus = push), this season also belongs to Katy.
This makes it 6-4 in seasons coupled with the fact that the Dragon's great five year run was only broken up by "guess who" makes my pick of Katy not so homeristic after all.
Now that my conscience is clear, I can get a good night's sleep, remember to feed the dogs, and let my forehead heal from beating it against a wall. :eek:
Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!
katyfan52
12-25-2009, 08:05 PM
I'd like to thank folks for clearing things up in my mind.
Originally, I thought this should be a tie based on giving both Katy and Carroll four years each for their championships with the other two seasons being equal.
However, given logic on this thread and the other long one, I've decided that what I viewed as a homer vote was actually correct.
2001 - Based on SOS and the fact that many don't even think the Dragon's records should not even be included goes to the Tigers.
2009 - Again using SOS and the fact that Katy won against common opponents (North Shore = win , Marcus = push), this season also belongs to Katy.
This makes it 6-4 in seasons coupled with the fact that the Dragon's great five year run was only broken up by "guess who" makes my pick of Katy not so homeristic after all.
Now that my conscience is clear, I can get a good night's sleep, remember to feed the dogs, and let my forehead heal from beating it against a wall. :eek:
Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!
LOL!!! See ya at the next bball game. :)
I'd like to thank folks for clearing things up in my mind.
Originally, I thought this should be a tie based on giving both Katy and Carroll four years each for their championships with the other two seasons being equal.
However, given logic on this thread and the other long one, I've decided that what I viewed as a homer vote was actually correct.
2001 - Based on SOS and the fact that many don't even think the Dragon's records should not even be included goes to the Tigers.
2009 - Again using SOS and the fact that Katy won against common opponents (North Shore = win , Marcus = push), this season also belongs to Katy.
This makes it 6-4 in seasons coupled with the fact that the Dragon's great five year run was only broken up by "guess who" makes my pick of Katy not so homeristic after all.
Now that my conscience is clear, I can get a good night's sleep, remember to feed the dogs, and let my forehead heal from beating it against a wall. :eek:
Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!
The fact you use SOS to seperate only 2 of the 10 seasons makes you argument weaker than a house made of paper. Apply the SOS across the entire decade and it will show that Carroll played the equivalent to China and Katy played the equivalent to Nepal.
Shoot2thrill
12-25-2009, 09:02 PM
2005 Carroll.
I personally think that the 2005 Carroll team was the best all round team I have seen. That being said, the 2003 GPNS teams was regarded by many as one of the best ever in Texas. This one might be a push. :)
I personally think that the 2005 Carroll team was the best all round team I have seen. That being said, the 2003 GPNS teams was regarded by many as one of the best ever in Texas. This one might be a push. :)
They were great, no doubt, but that North Shore team played the weakest schedules ever, whereas the Carroll team played one of the toughest.
TrinityTrojan80
12-25-2009, 10:07 PM
My bad. I am a metroplex guy and tried to include other teams I knew. In hindsight I should have listed:
Katy
Carroll
Trinity
Should have left Trinity off of this list. We don't need the this kind of recognition.
Should have left Trinity off of this list. We don't need the this kind of recognition.
I agree, we like to be down trodden and unnoticed! STEALTH and win by one!! :cool:
The fact you use SOS to seperate only 2 of the 10 seasons makes you argument weaker than a house made of paper. Apply the SOS across the entire decade and it will show that Carroll played the equivalent to China and Katy played the equivalent to Nepal.
What's wrong with giving each program its four state championship years?
Besides that, if you take away SOS, the Dragons were not in 5A in 2001 & lost to North Shore in 2009 while Katy beat them.
Remember, I originally called it a push. Y'all made me do it. :D
lonny23
12-27-2009, 03:11 AM
8 views and 3 votes. Come on. We need everyone to vote so we can settle this.
Why do Allen and Lufkin even make the list? I'd put Judson over both and won't even try to make an argument for the Rockets. I'd even put Westlake's 4 title losses above those two.
Trinity- 3 titles and great seasons
Katy- 4 titles and 2 Finals
SLC- 4 titles and a Finals
I can't stand Katy, but they're the Team of the Decade and there isn't an argument. SLC wasn't even 5A to start the decade.
The fact you use SOS to seperate only 2 of the 10 seasons makes you argument weaker than a house made of paper. Apply the SOS across the entire decade and it will show that Carroll played the equivalent to China and Katy played the equivalent to Nepal.
Challenge accepted.....
Opponents average ratings for the entire decade from Pigskin Prep (Texas Football Ratings) with a tiny aid from Calprep on out of state games:
Katy 172.4
Carroll 171.9
Nepal must have grown in a hurry. :eek:
6 championship apperances.
4 championships.
CCCSportsFan
12-28-2009, 12:10 PM
Why do Allen and Lufkin even make the list? I'd put Judson over both and won't even try to make an argument for the Rockets. I'd even put Westlake's 4 title losses above those two.
Trinity- 3 titles and great seasons
Katy- 4 titles and 2 Finals
SLC- 4 titles and a Finals
I can't stand Katy, but they're the Team of the Decade and there isn't an argument. SLC wasn't even 5A to start the decade.
When you look at SLC's accomplishments, and then add your point that they weren't even in 5A at the start of the decade, is why I voted for them. To move up from 4A and have that type of success in 5A so quickly will probably not be seen again.
rwilleby
12-28-2009, 12:48 PM
Challenge accepted.....
Opponents average ratings for the entire decade from Pigskin Prep (Texas Football Ratings) with a tiny aid from Calprep on out of state games:
Katy 172.4
Carroll 171.9
Nepal must have grown in a hurry. :eek:
What's that sound? It's the air Tut just sucked out of that argument? :notworthy
wesaxman34
12-28-2009, 01:28 PM
I voted SLC and here's why:
It has been pointed out many times how SLC had a tremendous run in the first half of the decade and that Katy has been more consistent by winning titles all throughout the decade with a debatable SOS...
Well, I thought to myself, "what will I remember most about Texas High School Football in the 2000's (other than Trinity) when I am old and wrinkly?"
I will hands down remember the shear dominance of SLC in the early to mid 2000's and what they did to their opponents both physically and mentally during their unbelievable streak. I would normally go with consistency, but I have to go with the team that will be the most memorable.
My .02
Mr. Rod
12-28-2009, 03:27 PM
When you look at SLC's accomplishments, and then add your point that they weren't even in 5A at the start of the decade, is why I voted for them. To move up from 4A and have that type of success in 5A so quickly will probably not be seen again.
That's what I was thinking. SLC got my vote. If Katy would of won this year I would of easily gave them my vote. No offense Tiger Fans.
ktCarl
12-28-2009, 04:43 PM
I voted Katy just to make SLC and Maxtor have a nice beginning to their New Year. :D
CCCSportsFan
12-28-2009, 04:55 PM
That's what I was thinking. SLC got my vote. If Katy would of won this year I would of easily gave them my vote. No offense Tiger Fans.
I'd have voted for them too if they would have won this last one. No way I could have homer picked SLC if Katy picks up half the state titles during the decade!
xray10
12-28-2009, 08:16 PM
take away the 2000 season and slc wins hands down...
but....
we can't do that...
so...
katy wins a squeaker.....
slc still had a very good 8 years this decade...
Challenge accepted.....
Opponents average ratings for the entire decade from Pigskin Prep (Texas Football Ratings) with a tiny aid from Calprep on out of state games:
Katy 172.4
Carroll 171.9
Nepal must have grown in a hurry. :eek:
No, you are using his rating number, not his SOS rank number. For instance, look at 2005 and it says Carroll played the #10 schedule, while Katy played the #42 schedule. Get those and then get back to me...Mr. Nepal.;)
Infact, that I could find on his site, his SOS rankings only go back to 2004. So I have those here as shown on his site...
2004- Carroll's SOS ranks #2, Katy's ranks #40.
2005- Carroll's SOS ranks #10, Katy's ranks #42.
2006- Carroll's SOS ranks #6, Katy's ranks #65.
2007- Carroll's SOS ranks #51, Katy's ranks #43.
2008- Carroll's SOS ranks #15, Katy's ranks #13.
2009- Carroll's SOS ranks #20, Katy's ranks # 17.
The aggregate= 17.3 for Carroll and 36.7 for Katy over those 6 seasons.:eek:
It's easy enough to see that likely only year 2000 for Katy would be higher than Carroll's for the remaining 4 seasons if they existed and for sure 2002 and 2003 would be higher for Carroll.
Hell, even in the years when Katy played several more rounds than Carroll, they only ranked slightly higher...That R3/R4 is a killer I tell ya!
I voted Katy just to make SLC and Maxtor have a nice beginning to their New Year. :D
You're a sick twisted person Carl...But thats ok, you're still a cool cat too.
BTW, my feelings wouldn't be hurt one bit if Katy were to get named as TOD. They are a deserving program just as Carroll is, so nobody could go wrong either way. In fact, I would feel the same if Celina was named as TOD too, as they are equally deserving as well.
It's all in fun my friend and I enjoy the debate's.
No, you are using his rating number, not his SOS rank number. For instance, look at 2005 and it says Carroll played the #10 schedule, while Katy played the #42 schedule. Get those and then get back to me...Mr. Nepal.;)
Infact, that I could find on his site, his SOS rankings only go back to 2004. So I have those here as shown on his site...
2004- Carroll's SOS ranks #2, Katy's ranks #40.
2005- Carroll's SOS ranks #10, Katy's ranks #42.
2006- Carroll's SOS ranks #6, Katy's ranks #65.
2007- Carroll's SOS ranks #51, Katy's ranks #43.
2008- Carroll's SOS ranks #15, Katy's ranks #13.
2009- Carroll's SOS ranks #20, Katy's ranks # 17.
The aggregate= 17.3 for Carroll and 36.7 for Katy over those 6 seasons.:eek:
It's easy enough to see that likely only year 2000 for Katy would be higher than Carroll's for the remaining 4 seasons if they existed and for sure 2002 and 2003 would be higher for Carroll.
Hell, even in the years when Katy played several more rounds than Carroll, they only ranked slightly higher...That R3/R4 is a killer I tell ya!
What a lot of folks don't realize is that the top teams were more spread around in the early part of the decade. There wasn't even talk of DFW supremacy back then (except maybe around the metromess).
Jerry didn't start showing SOS ratings until 2004 (as you said), which is why I used opponents rankings. 2002 & 2003 were about even, while 2001 was a little more of a differential for Katy than the Dragon 2004-2006 seasons. 2000 was about double that. That is where the ratings equalled out.
Other than 2004-2006 which were strongly for the Dragons & 2000-2001 which were more strongly for the Tigers, they were pretty even. So the aggregate for the full ten years is pretty close.
All in all, the two programs records are extremely close. I just wanted to point out to those who have been using SOS for their arguments that it isn't true when the entire decade is used.
Whenever I find the paper where I wrote down the opponents ratings year by year, I'll post it. I've been an old fart for ten years and in a couple of days hit "senior" old farthood and things tend to move from where I put them only to reappear in strange places.
I'd still go with a tie, but since that isn't an option will spread the wealth.
team of the:
cinc ade = Trinity
oct ade = Carroll
dec ade = Katy
What a lot of folks don't realize is that the top teams were more spread around in the early part of the decade. There wasn't even talk of DFW supremacy back then (except maybe around the metromess).
Jerry didn't start showing SOS ratings until 2004 (as you said), which is why I used opponents rankings. 2002 & 2003 were about even, while 2001 was a little more of a differential for Katy than the Dragon 2004-2006 seasons. 2000 was about double that. That is where the ratings equalled out.
Other than 2004-2006 which were strongly for the Dragons & 2000-2001 which were more strongly for the Tigers, they were pretty even. So the aggregate for the full ten years is pretty close.
All in all, the two programs records are extremely close. I just wanted to point out to those who have been using SOS for their arguments that it isn't true when the entire decade is used.
I think your confusing a few things. The ealry part of the decade, the later part of the last decade etc..was and has been dominated by R1/R2 (regardless of the DFW) it's been that way for as long as I've been involved in the game. So while they were more spread out, in terms of "out of one area", the regions supremeness has belonged to R1/R2 for quite a while, and those are infact the teams that the DFW has to face and those regions are infact where the strength of HSF has been and continue's to be and that is especially true for region 1.
And when the entire decade is used, it further implies that Carroll has played in the toughest region, not having a few seasons to continue the comparison for 4, isn't going to change the totality of the 6 and even moreso when considering that '02 and '03 would both be in Carroll's corner for SOS and that would leave us with '00 and '01. I'd feel pretty sure that Katy would take the SOS for '00, but not completely sure for '01, but again, I'd just assume that one would be at most slightly in Katy's favor, but that average for the decade when added, wouldn't get near enough to overcome the strentgh in total of Carroll's schedule this decade and again, one really only needs to honestly look at the region/regions they have to play through to fully understand that. In other words, it's glaring and bright, like a pink elephant in a room.
Calpreps has theirs that includes '03 to '09 and it shows Carroll's SOS as 37.3 and Katy's as 28.4 over those 7 years, again that trend wont change for the other 3 seasons (with the exception of '00) due to the region Carroll plays in, it would only bounce around if Carroll was like Westlake, who has played in R2 and R4.
I'd still go with a tie, but since that isn't an option will spread the wealth.
team of the:
cinc ade = Trinity
oct ade = Carroll
dec ade = Katy
I like that...^^^^. Very creative.:notworthy
I think your confusing a few things. The ealry part of the decade, the later part of the last decade etc..was and has been dominated by R1/R2 (regardless of the DFW) it's been that way for as long as I've been involved in the game. So while they were more spread out, in terms of "out of one area", the regions supremeness has belonged to R1/R2 for quite a while, and those are infact the teams that the DFW has to face and those regions are infact where the strength of HSF has been and continue's to be and that is especially true for region 1.
And when the entire decade is used, it further implies that Carroll has played in the toughest region, not having a few seasons to continue the comparison for 4, isn't going to change the totality of the 6 and even moreso when considering that '02 and '03 would both be in Carroll's corner for SOS and that would leave us with '00 and '01. I'd feel pretty sure that Katy would take the SOS for '00, but not completely sure for '01, but again, I'd just assume that one would be at most slightly in Katy's favor, but that average for the decade when added, wouldn't get near enough to overcome the strentgh in total of Carroll's schedule this decade and again, one really only needs to honestly look at the region/regions they have to play through to fully understand that. In other words, it's glaring and bright, like a pink elephant in a room.
Calpreps has theirs that includes '03 to '09 and it shows Carroll's SOS as 37.3 and Katy's as 28.4 over those 7 years, again that trend wont change for the other 3 seasons (with the exception of '00) due to the region Carroll plays in, it would only bounce around if Carroll was like Westlake, who has played in R2 and R4.
Calpreps rated Muleshoe over Carroll in 2008. :eek:
Region three thinned out as new schools were added. Hastings & Elsik were good district competitors until Alief Taylor was added. Humble was always a tough non district foe. Recently, Katy has gotten a tougher non district schedule because of lack of competition within the district. It's good that Cinco looks like its program is going to stay solid.
Calpreps rated Muleshoe over Carroll in 2008. :eek:
Region three thinned out as new schools were added. Hastings & Elsik were good district competitors until Alief Taylor was added. Humble was always a tough non district foe. Recently, Katy has gotten a tougher non district schedule because of lack of competition within the district. It's good that Cinco looks like its program is going to stay solid.
True enough they did and that is done by their power rankings, but you'll notice that Mulshoe's and Katy's SOS is decidedly lower than Carroll's is, in fact just look at all the R1/R2 teams SOS compared to Katy's.:)
Here are opponents average ratings:
...........Katy .....Carroll
2000....169.8.....156.3
2001....167.9.....160.5
2002....182.3.....181.5
2003....175.9.....176.3
2004....165.6.....171.2
2005....171.4.....175.8
2006....165.1.....171.2
2007....169.5.....170.6
2008....178.6.....181.5
2009....175.4.....174.7
Avg.....172.4.....171.9
Average is for all games played. (not by year)
I fudged in the out of state games which were slightly higher for Carroll.
I believe you underestimated Katy's early decade schedules.
The average ratings for the two programs are:
Katy......196.2
Carroll....193.7
WOS87
12-29-2009, 01:01 AM
Here are opponents average ratings:
...........Katy .....Carroll
2000....169.8.....156.3
2001....167.9.....160.5
2002....182.3.....181.5
2003....175.9.....176.3
2004....165.6.....171.2
2005....171.4.....175.8
2006....165.1.....171.2
2007....169.5.....170.6
2008....178.6.....181.5
2009....175.4.....174.7
Avg.....172.4.....171.9
Average is for all games played. (not by year)
I fudged in the out of state games which were slightly higher for Carroll.
I believe you underestimated Katy's early decade schedules.
The average ratings for the two programs are:
Katy......196.2
Carroll....193.7
...AND I'm pretty sure SOS is included as a factor in all of those ratings to begin with so what you just posted was somewhat redundant but definitely reinforced the point! :D;)
Here are opponents average ratings:
...........Katy .....Carroll
2000....169.8.....156.3
2001....167.9.....160.5
2002....182.3.....181.5
2003....175.9.....176.3
2004....165.6.....171.2
2005....171.4.....175.8
2006....165.1.....171.2
2007....169.5.....170.6
2008....178.6.....181.5
2009....175.4.....174.7
Avg.....172.4.....171.9
Average is for all games played. (not by year)
I fudged in the out of state games which were slightly higher for Carroll.
I believe you underestimated Katy's early decade schedules.
The average ratings for the two programs are:
Katy......196.2
Carroll....193.7
His team ratings would be fine if not for the fact that he doesnt account for a rating being lowered by several points upon each classification drop. Thus the actual SOS ranks for each teams given season is more useable information. (to bad he doesn't have those other 4 seasons, as they would definately show and follow the same trend as his others do). Thats the good thing with Calpreps, is it rates by power, each classification the same exact way (doesn't subtract for classification drops).
Like I say though, given the trend that each of those sites have for the SOS ratings, with one going to '04 and one going to '03, the trend doesn't indicate that those other 3 seasons will change the entire decade toward Katy having the better SOS and that would also agree with what the eyeball test says as well as the results of the given areas and teams in the given areas and along each path that both teams played in their regions, with R3 and R4 being the obviously weaker regions, plus the championship results, not only from R1 and R2, but from the DFW in general during this decade.
Also, very kind of you to give the "slightly higher" ratings to Carroll on the OOS games, considering both were state champions the year Carroll played them and one was considered one of the best teams to ever play HSF.:)
rwilleby
12-29-2009, 04:11 AM
Sucks when all of the numbers don't give you the results you're looking for... :)
His team ratings would be fine if not for the fact that he doesnt account for a rating being lowered by several points upon each classification drop. Thus the actual SOS ranks for each teams given season is more useable information. (to bad he doesn't have those other 4 seasons, as they would definately show and follow the same trend as his others do).
Thats the good thing with Calpreps, is it rates by power, each classification the same exact way (doesn't subtract for classification drops).
Like I say though, given the trend that each of those sites have for the SOS ratings, with one going to '04 and one going to '03, the trend doesn't indicate that those other 3 seasons will change the entire decade toward Katy having the better SOS and that would also agree with what the eyeball test says as well as the results of the given areas and teams in the given areas and along each path that both teams played in their regions, with R3 and R4 being the obviously weaker regions, plus the championship results, not only from R1 and R2, but from the DFW in general during this decade.
Also, very kind of you to give the "slightly higher" ratings to Carroll on the OOS games, considering both were state champions the year Carroll played them and one was considered one of the best teams to ever play HSF.:)
It would show the same trend. SOS nombers would correlate to SOS as the did in 2004-2006 (only even further apart).
That is why I don't like referring to national ratings where you have something like Muleshoe rated over Carroll (and that's not the only instance) Pigskin Prep is Texas only.
In the first four years of the decade, four of the champs were from reg. 1&2 and four from reg. 3&4.
Bellvue is also a state champion.
If you don't want to believe the numbers, I think you are the one being blinded by the fire breathing green creature in your backyard. :confused:
...AND I'm pretty sure SOS is included as a factor in all of those ratings to begin with so what you just posted was somewhat redundant but definitely reinforced the point! :D;)
I used the ratings for the best I could come up with since Jerry's site didn't have SOS for the entire decade.
maxtor
12-29-2009, 09:16 AM
Here are opponents average ratings:
...........Katy .....Carroll
2000....169.8.....156.3
2001....167.9.....160.5
2002....182.3.....181.5
2003....175.9.....176.3
2004....165.6.....171.2
2005....171.4.....175.8
2006....165.1.....171.2
2007....169.5.....170.6
2008....178.6.....181.5
2009....175.4.....174.7
Avg.....172.4.....171.9
Average is for all games played. (not by year)
I fudged in the out of state games which were slightly higher for Carroll.
I believe you underestimated Katy's early decade schedules.
The average ratings for the two programs are:
Katy......196.2
Carroll....193.7
Thank gosh there is somebody on Katys side that actually uses sme sort of stats and reality to base an opinion on.:)
Now you have a good start Tut. Now what you must consider is that the ORDER in which games are played makes ALL the difference in the world as to total games played. If Katy had played those opponents that elevated their SOS in the playoffs then Katys seasons would have ended sooner than what they did with the result being less games played and less championship appearances.
The bulk of Southlakes SOS came in the playoffs where losing means going home. Katy SOS came from the preseason and some from the regular season where if you lose it dosent mean anything, unless of course one believes that losing a game or two in district will cause Katy to have a fifth place finish in district(4 teams advance to the playoffs). Thus, the result for Katys losses to tough opponents was meaningless while SLCs SOS came from the playoffs if when you lose you go home.
When katy plays a LaPort in the playoffs they get a bi essentially only to rack up another win, avoid a loss and then go on to beat another LaPort the next week etc.
SOOOOO, what you need to do is at least consider only the playoff SOSs as the regular season is a moot point towards going to State.
And finally, I dont know where you got these SOSs but I question them, where did they come from?:)
rwilleby
12-29-2009, 09:37 AM
Tut, also only consider games played on Saturday... No Friday or Thursday games... Thx...
RedRage00
12-29-2009, 09:57 AM
Katy fans know their SOS sucks, so why do yall keep pointing it out? It's obvious that Carroll and many other DFW teams would be playing in the final had they gone through Stratford, Atascowhata?, laPorte, Clear something, and New Braunfels.....hell, I grew up in Region 4 and I can admit we aren't the greatest region. Getting past the Region 4 champ isn't exactly hard which is why I am all for alternating the semi's (Region 1 vs 3, etc) every year.
I don't even like SLC so don't try and say I'm defending them just cause I live in the DFW. :D
rwilleby
12-29-2009, 10:11 AM
RR, It's like, you pull the little chain and the DFW folks go nuts... I'm not sure you'll find many Katy fans that disagree with the SOS point but it's fun to see what reason will pop up next... Hey, it looks like we're ahead in the vote... But that's only because the Trinity segment was stripped away as the "Ross Perot third party" vote... Hmmm, isn't he a DFW dude... :)
It would show the same trend. SOS nombers would correlate to SOS as the did in 2004-2006 (only even further apart).
It sure would show the same trend, thus I stated as much. It would be heavily weighted to what I said origionally was China, vs. Katy and their Nepal.:)
That is why I don't like referring to national ratings where you have something like Muleshoe rated over Carroll (and that's not the only instance) Pigskin Prep is Texas only.
No, it's NOT national ratings, it is the state rankings for Texas and it clearly states that. Still though, it is accurate in not giving a point total drop due only to the classification drop, which is the correct way to do the rankings.
In the first four years of the decade, four of the champs were from reg. 1&2 and four from reg. 3&4.
Oh no doubt and they have had 3 teams win titles this decade and that fat pink elephant has had 8 and 2003 was the only season in which we can definitively say that R3/R4 had anything close to the better teams and yet the tougher roads were still in R1/R2. Carroll had the tougher road over Katy and North Shore didn't play a remotely decent team until the last game of the season (having played the weakest schedule of about any team ever).
Bellvue is also a state champion.
Yes they are and Cy Bay wasn't, while ECA was and MNW was. And again, MNW is considered one of the best teams of all time at the HS level. Like I said..."slightly" is funny at best.
If you don't want to believe the numbers, I think you are the one being blinded by the fire breathing green creature in your backyard. :confused:
Oh no, I believe it is you that dont want to agree with the numbers and better yet even your own eyes, but you keep up the good fight and keep on thinking R3/R4 is anywhere near the level of R1/R2. And while you're at it, keep thinking that Katy has played anywhere near the SOS that Carroll has or any other teams in R1/R2.
^^^.:)
And finally, I dont know where you got these SOSs but I question them, where did they come from?:)
They are not SOS rankings, but rather some team ratings.;)
I don't think anyone questions SOS from 2004-2009. The reason I've been posting is to show that the first part of the decade was not so lopsided as people had been saying. As I've stated either on this thread, the longer one, or both is that I think it is too close to call in picking one program over the other. Since "tie" is treated as an unspeakable four letter word, how is it broken? Head to head, they are 1-1 and have four state championships apiece. With the strength of schedule for the full ten years much closer than most people thought, how about year by year?
I gave each school their four championship seasons (The only one a reasonable person would challenge is 2008.)
In '08, the big blabber was "OK, Katy won region 3 without playing anybody. SV will demolish them." WRONG!!
Then it was "SV must suck too...Wylie (the team that came out of the Dragons all powerful region) will absolutely kill them." WRONG AGAIN!!!
This leaves 2001 & 2009 which I actually think they are too close to call. But a draw is off limits, so here goes.
In 2001, Carroll was 10-5 in 4A and lost to a strong Ennis team in the semis while Katy went 8-4 in 5A losing to Madison with Vince Young in his senior season. Originally, I called it a draw and changed to Katy (via 4A vs 5A and SOS) for the sake of using things that others had posted that I don't really believe. Now I'm going back to a tie for 2001 as I wash off my fingers with industrial strength soap for using such a term.
How about 2009? Again...not much to choose from. Both had two losses with SOS pretty close. Would the Tigers gotten past both Allen and Arl. Bowie? (something nobody can say for sure) Would the Dragons get past New Braunfels? Don't laugh...they have something called defense. (again...can't say for sure) One last thing which i really don't like getting into...common opponents. Marcus is a push while North Shore goes to Katy. That decides it.........I guess.
At any rate, here are opponents playoffs ratings averages from Pigskin Prep for DFW folks to feast their eyes on.
(games)
...........Katy...........Carroll
2000....181.5 (6).....161.0 (4)
2001....181.0 (2).....171.2 (5)
2002....192.6 (5).....193.2 (6)
2003....182.7 (6).....185.3 (6)
2004....172.5 (4).....184.2 (6)
2005....181.7 (6).....188.2 (6)
2006....170.0 (4).....182.2 (6)
2007....179.7 (6).....180.1 (3)
2008....179.7 (6).....187.0 (2)
2009....179.8 (6).....184.7 (3)
Avg.....180.5 (51)....182.3 (47)
It would show the same trend. SOS nombers would correlate to SOS as the did in 2004-2006 (only even further apart).
"It sure would show the same trend, thus I stated as much. It would be heavily weighted to what I said origionally was China, vs. Katy and their Nepal."
In 2000-2001, Katy is China.
Bellvue is also a state champion.
"Yes they are and Cy Bay wasn't, while ECA was and MNW was. And again, MNW is considered one of the best teams of all time at the HS level. Like I said..."slightly" is funny at best."
I gave them all the same rating as a team close to where they were ranked on Calpreps. MNW was given ET's rating even though the Trojans were ranked higher. (If you don't believe me, look it up. You're the one who loves Calprep.)
"Oh no, I believe it is you that dont want to agree with the numbers and better yet even your own eyes, but you keep up the good fight and keep on thinking R3/R4 is anywhere near the level of R1/R2. And while you're at it, keep thinking that Katy has played anywhere near the SOS that Carroll has or any other teams in R1/R2."
No arguement about 2004-2009, but some people think it was the entire decade. I'm only talking about 2000-2003 here. Show me the R1 &R2 dominance.
Final ratings from Pigskin Prep. I don't necessarily agree with all of the orders, but here are the top ten ratings. If anyone has rankings from a different source, please share it rather than simply saying this is wrong.
Regions 3 & 4 are bolded.
CLASS 5A 2000
1 Katy
2 Midland Lee
3 Austin Westlake
4 Houston Madison
5 SA Marshall
6 Garland
7 SA MacArthur
8 The Woodlands
9 Aldine Eisenhower
10 SA Holmes
CLASS 5A 2001
1 Houston Madison
2 Lufkin
3 North Shore
4 Kingwood
5 Austin Westlake
6 Lewisville
7 Euless Trinity
8 SA Madison
9 Mesquite
10 DeSoto
CLASS 5A 2002
1 Southlake Carroll
2 SA Madison
3 Katy
4 North Shore
5 Smithson Valley
6 Converse Judson
7 Humble
8 Lufkin
9 Arlington
10 Longview
CLASS 5A 2003
1 North Shore
2 Katy
3 Southlake Carroll
4 The Woodlands
5 Tyler Lee
6 Arlington Lamar
7 Allen
8 Schertz Clemens
9 Houston Lamar
10 Dallas Carter
I don't think anyone questions SOS from 2004-2009.
Funny no one questions what we can see on his site, but because he didn't have them for the other seasons, we should..As I said, it would infact show the same trend. Just look at 2005 when both teams played the same amount of games, yet Carroll has a SOS at #10 and Katy's is #42.:eek: Now, I am inclined to say that '03, for the same reasons (same number of games) would be the same...Infact Calpreps (being their first season of providing such information for Texas) had Carroll's '03 SOS at 32.4 and Katy's '03 SOS at 29.6.
Infact it has Lufkin, Allen, The Woodlands, Leander, Tyler Lee, Waco, Temple, Longview, Carroll and Belton as the highest SOS ranks and we all know what 2 regions those teams come from...lol.
BTW, North Shore had the weakest.
The reason I've been posting is to show that the first part of the decade was not so lopsided as people had been saying.
Actually, if you look at everything backing up to and including the year that both titles were won by R3/R4, it plainly shows that the SOS was in R1/R2's corner, including Carroll over Katy in that season. WOW.
As I've stated either on this thread, the longer one, or both is that I think it is too close to call in picking one program over the other. Since "tie" is treated as an unspeakable four letter word, how is it broken? Head to head, they are 1-1 and have four state championships apiece. With the strength of schedule for the full ten years much closer than most people thought, how about year by year?
Again, it was not much closer at all..to argue differently is funny and it makes me laugh.
I gave each school their four championship seasons (The only one a reasonable person would challenge is 2008.)
Yes, of course all 4 were equal. Silly me to think that 16-0, 16-0, 16-0 and 16-0 is equal to 16-0, 15-1, 16-0 and 13-3 all while playing the much tougher SOS.
In '08, the big blabber was "OK, Katy won region 3 without playing anybody.
Thats actually the point every season and one we've made adnaseum and the numbers prove it.
This leaves 2001 & 2009 which I actually think they are too close to call. But a draw is off limits, so here goes.
In 2001, Carroll was 10-5 in 4A and lost to a strong Ennis team in the semis while Katy went 8-4 in 5A losing to Madison with Vince Young in his senior season. Originally, I called it a draw and changed to Katy (via 4A vs 5A and SOS) for the sake of using things that others had posted that I don't really believe. Now I'm going back to a tie for 2001 as I wash off my fingers with industrial strength soap for using such a term.
Yes, 2001, the season in which Carroll's opponents were 114-63 and Katy's were 77-55...hmm..I'd call it a toss up too...lol.
How about 2009? Again...not much to choose from. Both had two losses with SOS pretty close. Would the Tigers gotten past both Allen and Arl. Bowie? (something nobody can say for sure) Would the Dragons get past New Braunfels? Don't laugh...they have something called defense. (again...can't say for sure) One last thing which i really don't like getting into...common opponents. Marcus is a push while North Shore goes to Katy. That decides it.........I guess.
The same thing is stated here time and again...It wouldn't be that Katy would have to get past Allen and Bowie...But, Heritage, Allen, Bowie, Abilene and Klein..rather Katy played Stratford, Atoscocita, LaPorte, Clear Springs and New Braunfels...Again, lol.
At any rate, here are opponents playoffs ratings averages from Pigskin Prep for DFW folks to feast their eyes on.
(games)
...........Katy...........Carroll
2000....181.5 (6).....161.0 (4)
2001....181.0 (2).....171.2 (5)
2002....192.6 (5).....193.2 (6)
2003....182.7 (6).....185.3 (6)
2004....172.5 (4).....184.2 (6)
2005....181.7 (6).....188.2 (6)
2006....170.0 (4).....182.2 (6)
2007....179.7 (6).....180.1 (3)
2008....179.7 (6).....187.0 (2)
2009....179.8 (6).....184.7 (3)
Avg.....180.5 (51)....182.3 (47)
Awsome, here are the SOS's for each season with 2000-2002 listed with opponents records...Please, "feast your eyes".
2000- Katy....119-77, Carroll...101-62
2001- Carroll..114-63, Katy.....77-55
2002- Carroll..123-67, Katy.....113-67
"With SOS" (the first being Calpreps for the '03 season, due to PSP not having them and under each season will show the subsequent years Calpreps SOS)
2003- Carroll..32.4, Katy.........29.6
2004- Carroll..#2, Katy...........#40
2004- Carroll..39.6, Katy.........20.1
2005- Carroll..#10, Katy.........#42
2005- Carroll..40.3, Katy.........26.4
2006- Carroll..#6, Katy...........#65
2006- Carroll..37.8, Katy.........23.8
2007- Katy....#43, Carroll.......#51
2007- Carroll..32, Katy...........30.4
2008- Katy...#13, Carroll........#15
2008- Carroll..41.1, Katy........35.8
2009- Katy...#17, Carroll........#20
2009- Carroll..38.3, Katy........36.5
Now, look at those numbers and see that even in the years Katy played more games than Carroll, the SOS was extremely close, but look at the seasons that are in Carroll's favor and how far out front Carroll is and those averaged over the entire decade are heavily in Carroll's corner.
^^^.:)
It would show the same trend. SOS nombers would correlate to SOS as the did in 2004-2006 (only even further apart).
In 2000-2001, Katy is China.
This disagree's...
Katy's opponents in 2000-2001= 196-132 over 28 games.
Carroll's opponents in 2000-2001= 215-125 over 29 games.
China my :Censor:.
WOS87
12-30-2009, 12:03 AM
This disagree's...
Katy's opponents in 2000-2001= 196-132 over 28 games.
Carroll's opponents in 2000-2001= 215-125 over 29 games.
China my :Censor:.
How many of Katy's opponents those two years were 5A? (All of them)
How many of SLC's opponents those two years were 5A? (2 out of 29.... and it was Haltom both games at that) AND SLC actually lost to Haltom in 2000!
You can't compare the Win-Loss records of 28 5A teams (who played mostly 5A teams) to records of 27 4A teams (who played mostly 4A teams).
The fact that the win-loss records are actually as close as they are goes in Katy's favor IMO.
AND... can't we move this discussion back to my original thread?? Traitors!
:confused::mad:
Bellvue is also a state champion.
I gave them all the same rating as a team close to where they were ranked on Calpreps. MNW was given ET's rating even though the Trojans were ranked higher. (If you don't believe me, look it up. You're the one who loves Calprep.)
You gave them Trinity's rating...Ok, MNW was ranked above Trinity on their compilation poll and finished #1 on 3 national poll's...It simply wasn't even close.
How many of Katy's opponents those two years were 5A? (All of them)
How many of SLC's opponents those two years were 5A? (2 out of 29.... and it was Haltom at that)
You can't compare the Win-Loss records of 28 5A teams (who played mostly 5A teams) to records of 27 4A teams (who played mostly 4A teams).
The fact that the win-loss records are actually as close as they are goes in Katy's favor IMO.
AND... can't we move this discussion back to my original thread?? Traitors!
:confused::mad:
That thought process is a joke and you know it...
Carroll had no decided advantage playing against 4A teams (they were infact 4A).
Katy had no decided disadvantage playing against 5A teams (they were infact 5A).
Next..
WOS87
12-30-2009, 12:14 AM
That thought process is a joke and you know it...
Carroll had no decided advantage playing against 4A teams (they were infact 4A).
Katy had no decided disadvantage playing against 5A teams (they were infact 5A).
Next..
What's the title of the thread???!
5A Team of the Decade
Katy most DEFINITELY has an advantage playing 28 5A opponents from 2000-2001 going 24-4 against them compared to SLC going 1-1 against 5A competition from 2000-2001. That's a full 20% of the decade that's in question.
You can't just write that off.
Next!
:D:rolleyes:;):cool:
What's the title of the thread???!
5A Team of the Decade
Katy most DEFINITELY has an advantage playing 28 5A opponents from 2000-2001 going 24-4 against them compared to SLC going 1-1 against 5A competition from 2000-2001. That's a full 20% of the decade that's in question.
You can't just write that off.
Next!
:D:rolleyes:;):cool:
So we aren't even considering Carroll's 4A years then...Well cased closed, Carroll hands down on their 5A seasons during this decade vs. Katy and their 5A seasons this decade. Though if I had a vote for overall it would go to Celina.:)
WOS87
12-30-2009, 12:28 AM
So we aren't even considering Carroll's 4A years then...Well cased closed, Carroll hands down on their 5A seasons during this decade vs. Katy and their 5A seasons this decade. Though if I had a vote for overall it would go to Celina.:)
Of course I'm considering Carroll's 4A years... two years in which they went 1-1 against 5A Haltom and 18-9 against 4A teams.
Of course I'm considering Carroll's 4A years... two years in which they went 1-1 against 5A Haltom and 18-9 against 4A teams.
Awesome then, so it's back on the table....Sweet, so 19-10 against opponents that were 215-125 vs. a 24-4 record against opponents that were 196-132. I can dig it.:)
And as I said, the Bobcats would get my overall.:notworthy
WOS87
12-30-2009, 01:07 AM
Awesome then, so it's back on the table....Sweet, so 19-10 against opponents that were 215-125 vs. a 24-4 record against opponents that were 196-132. I can dig it.:)
And as I said, the Bobcats would get my overall.:notworthy
Why don't you go ahead and research those teams the Bobcats played since you are so obsessed with SOS and opponent's records... ;)
Katy would have had a field day (or at least ended up with better than an 24-9 record) against those 4A teams SLC played from 2000-2003!!!
Just as both SLC and Katy would have had a field day with those 2A and Privates Celina played (AND lost to) from 2000-2009.
Again... look at the title of the thread. If you're gonna use the argument to look at ONLY seasons playing as a 5A team.. SLC has won a grand total 109 games, Katy a UIL record 132 this decade. 23 wins is a pretty big deficit to overcome no matter what your SOS! ;) (unless you're Celina I guess... :rolleyes:)
Why don't you go ahead and research those teams the Bobcats played since you are so obsessed with SOS and opponents records... ;)
Not obsessed with them at all, they are part of any relevant discussion on greatness of teams, across all landscapes of sports and they always will be.
Katy would have had a field day (or at least ended up with better than an 24-9 record) against those 4A teams SLC played from 2000-2003!!!
And I think Carroll would have done pretty damn well against some of those pansies in R3/R4 that Katy played too. And flipping it, I think there is every chance Katy gets beat prior to the semi's in 2001.
Just as both SLC and Katy would have had a field day with those 2A and Privates Celina played (AND lost to) from 2000-2009.
Making a leap of faith there are you, wow. Huge jump.
Again... look at the title of the thread.
Thread titles mean nothing around here. Come on man!
If you're gonna use the argument to look at ONLY seasons playing as a 5A team.. SLC has won a grand total 109 games, Katy a UIL record 132 this decade. 23 wins is a pretty big deficit to overcome no matter what your SOS! ;)
LOL...Have you seen the SOS's for each team? I think that statement is flatly overruled by those SOS's. The clear strength of this state in 5A is in R1/R2 and their is simply no questioning that, at all. And, Katy was able to tie Celina's 132 wins in a decade record, weren't they?
^^^.:)
"Thread titles mean nothing around here. Come on man!"
Apparently, statistics that don't suit your needs don't either.
What I've posted is meant to be digested by those with a sense of reason.
Others vomit them out as if they never entered their system and didn't exist.
texas_smoke69
12-30-2009, 10:24 AM
Carroll under Dodge is without a doubt the best team of the decade.
Apparently, statistics that don't suit your needs don't either. What I've posted is meant to be digested by those with a sense of reason. Others vomit them out as if they never entered their system and didn't exist.
And apparently those posted by us dont suit you either. To try and argue at all about the SOS is futile on your part, so it's shot down at every turn.
Who has the most cars?
Dude 1: I have 30
Dude 2: I have 25, but 20 of them are Mercedes and 10 of Dada's are Hyundai's so I should be given credit for having the most cars...despite what the numbers say...SURE he has more.....but mine are more "Quality", numbers can be misleading. I AM THE OWNER OF THE MOST CARS
Dude 2 sounds like he has a vine full of sour grapes huh?
Reminds me of this argument.
Bill4par
12-30-2009, 02:45 PM
Computer power ratings aren't perfect but I believe they are better than homer opinion. They treat teams equally. Computer models can take into consideration games over a long period, strength of opponents, etc.
Here is the data for 2003 through 2009. This data excludes a state title season for both Katy and SLC.
Rank ---- School ------- Rating ----- Schedule Strength
1 ------- Carroll -------- 58.3 ------- 37.3
2 ------- Trinity -------- 53.8 ------- 34.5
3 ------- Katy ---------- 52.2 ------- 28.4
Freeman Model - 2003 through 2009 combined (pre 2003 data is not available).
I am not surprised. This is kinda what I thought. Katy is 3.It is still an accomplishment to be #3 . Don't feel bad fellas.
You guys can dig all you want
State Title Appearances:
Katy 6
SLC 5
Titles
Katy 4
SLC 4
Head to head 1-1
every thing else is a matter of opinion.
I really don't see how any other team could fit into the argument
from 2000-2009 Katy or SLC has been in the title game every year except 2001. That's 9 out of 10 right?
And apparently those posted by us dont suit you either. To try and argue at all about the SOS is futile on your part, so it's shot down at every turn.
I have yet to see your SOS stats for 2000-2003.
Until then, nothing has been shot down.
{QUOTE - SLC} "With SOS" (the first being Calpreps for the '03 season, due to PSP not having them and under each season will show the subsequent years Calpreps SOS)
2003- Carroll..32.4, Katy.........29.6
2004- Carroll..#2, Katy...........#40
2004- Carroll..39.6, Katy.........20.1
2005- Carroll..#10, Katy.........#42
2005- Carroll..40.3, Katy.........26.4
2006- Carroll..#6, Katy...........#65
2006- Carroll..37.8, Katy.........23.8
2007- Katy....#43, Carroll.......#51
2007- Carroll..32, Katy...........30.4
2008- Katy...#13, Carroll........#15
2008- Carroll..41.1, Katy........35.8
2009- Katy...#17, Carroll........#20
2009- Carroll..38.3, Katy........36.5
{QUOTE}
From opponents ratings from Pigskin Prep which are previosly listed, 2000 & 2001 are strongly for Katy with 2002 slightly for Katy.
Pigskin Prep did rank them in 2003.
Calpreps top 25 ranked Texas teams for 2003
(Pigskin Prep statewide rankings for these teams)
__9 North Shore (1)
_10 La Marque 4A (4)
_16 Ennis 4A (9)
_36 Katy (2)
_39 Denton Ryan 4A (6)
_45 Woodlands (5)
_46 Southlake Carroll (3)
_66 Tyler Lee (7)
_78 Arlington Lamar (8)
_90 Texarkana 4A (47)
_95 Highland Park 4A (17)
100 Leander (24)
105 Allen (10)
108 Gainesville 3A (27)
120 Atlanta 3A (34)
124 Lufkin (39)
143 Garrison 2A (171)
145 Burnet 3A (36)
156 Kilgore 4A (40)
169 Dallas Carter (14)
171 Schertz Clemens (12)
198 Brownwood 4A (45)
230 Temple (46)
238 Gilmer 3A (105)
240 Belton (28)
These teams in Calpreps SOS order with rating(Pigskin Prep SOS rank)
Temple 37.2 (4)
Woodlands 34.7 (11)
Lufkin 33.7 (73)
Denton Ryan 33.2 (68)
Tyler Lee 33.6 (14)
Southlake Carroll 32.4 (13)
Belton 31.6 (38)
Highland Park 31.3 (74)
Leander 30.1 (53)
Allen 29.9 (82)
Katy 29.6 (9)
Arlington Lamar 28.7 (35)
La Marque 27.9 (155)
Texarkana 27.6 (237)
Atlanta 27.4 ((303)
Ennis 27.0 (203)
Schertz Clemens 26.8 (37)
Kilgore 25.9 (211)
Brownwood 25.3 (227)
North Shore 22.7 (33)
Burnet 21.4 (328)
Gilmer 20.1 (437)
Gainesville 18.9 (412)
Dallas Carter 17.4 (269)
Garrison 16.8 (613)
I am not surprised. This is kinda what I thought. Katy is 3.It is still an accomplishment to be #3 . Don't feel bad fellas.
The Dragons are definitely team of the octade.
Who has the most cars?
Dude 1: I have 30
Dude 2: I have 25, but 20 of them are Mercedes and 10 of Dada's are Hyundai's so I should be given credit for having the most cars...despite what the numbers say...SURE he has more.....but mine are more "Quality", numbers can be misleading. I AM THE OWNER OF THE MOST CARS
Dude 2 sounds like he has a vine full of sour grapes huh?
Reminds me of this argument.
Shucks....I only have one. :o
ThEgReAtOnE
12-30-2009, 04:54 PM
My arguments have been:
1. Katy = 2000 thru 2009... SLC = 2002-2009! That's 10 yrs vs 8 yrs! And those SLC teams set state 5A state records!
2. Also, I wonder how many of those years that Katy won state could you say Katy was the absolute best team in the state? Then, I wonder the same about SLC, in regards to their state-winning seasons? I'd say Katy was the best team in the state, in 2000 and 2007. I think 2003 North Shore is the greatest team, ever. I think the 2008 Katy team was not legitimately a Top 5 team - JMO! I look at SLC, from 2002-2006, and they were hands down the best team in the state 3 out of 4 yrs in a row... and arguably the best in 2006.
3. I have a ton of respect for Katy... who in their right mind wouldn't? But, when one thinks about the state title winners from Region 1/Region 2 and Region 3/Region 4, in this decade, it's clear that R1/R2 was w/o doubt the tougher regions to come out of. Midland Lee (2000), Mesquite (2001), Lufkin (2001), SLC (2002, 2004, 2005, 2006), Cedar Hill (2006), ET (2005, 2007, 2009), Allen (2008), Abilene (2009) >>>> North Shore (2003), Converse Judson (2002), and Katy (2000, 2003, 2007, 2008). That's 8 R1/R2 winners vs 3 R3/R4 winners.
Having seen the talent in the teams, from R1/R2 and R3/R4, over the past several seasons... I would say SLC took a much tougher path, each year... especially from 2002-2006. They were having to beat Euless Trinity, Allen, Abilene, Arlington Sam Houston, Plano, Denton Ryan, and Lufkin, in the playoffs - just to even get to the state title game - most of whom won state titles, since 2000 (e.g. ET, Allen, Abilene, Lufkin).
I would ask this: tell me some teams, from R3/R4, who have won state titles, since 2000, that Katy had to beat, in the playoffs, to get to a state title game? The answer is: NONE!
And as far as the 2009 deciding who #1 is for the decade: I think that had SLC met Katy in the playoffs (with the way Katy's QB-play was) SLC would've beaten Katy by 2 tds! JMO!
From opponents ratings from Pigskin Prep which are previosly listed, 2000 & 2001 are strongly for Katy with 2002 slightly for Katy.
Pigskin Prep did rank them in 2003.
Calpreps top 25 ranked Texas teams for 2003
(Pigskin Prep statewide rankings for these teams)
__9 North Shore (1)
_10 La Marque 4A (4)
_16 Ennis 4A (9)
_36 Katy (2)
_39 Denton Ryan 4A (6)
_45 Woodlands (5)
_46 Southlake Carroll (3)
_66 Tyler Lee (7)
_78 Arlington Lamar (8)
_90 Texarkana 4A (47)
_95 Highland Park 4A (17)
100 Leander (24)
105 Allen (10)
108 Gainesville 3A (27)
120 Atlanta 3A (34)
124 Lufkin (39)
143 Garrison 2A (171)
145 Burnet 3A (36)
156 Kilgore 4A (40)
169 Dallas Carter (14)
171 Schertz Clemens (12)
198 Brownwood 4A (45)
230 Temple (46)
238 Gilmer 3A (105)
240 Belton (28)
These teams in Calpreps SOS order with rating(Pigskin Prep SOS rank)
Temple 37.2 (4)
Woodlands 34.7 (11)
Lufkin 33.7 (73)
Denton Ryan 33.2 (68)
Tyler Lee 33.6 (14)
Southlake Carroll 32.4 (13)
Belton 31.6 (38)
Highland Park 31.3 (74)
Leander 30.1 (53)
Allen 29.9 (82)
Katy 29.6 (9)
Arlington Lamar 28.7 (35)
La Marque 27.9 (155)
Texarkana 27.6 (237)
Atlanta 27.4 ((303)
Ennis 27.0 (203)
Schertz Clemens 26.8 (37)
Kilgore 25.9 (211)
Brownwood 25.3 (227)
North Shore 22.7 (33)
Burnet 21.4 (328)
Gilmer 20.1 (437)
Gainesville 18.9 (412)
Dallas Carter 17.4 (269)
Garrison 16.8 (613)
As has been stated many many many times. Just look at that and you can plainly see who was R1/R2 vs. those few that were R3/R4 and again, how many of those teams did Katy play. Look at the entire decade and tell me how many tough teams did Katy play in the playoffs....You are now falling into "self owning" and I love it. You cant even realize when your arguments are against your own position.
I've laid out all the SOS's that are available and they are HEAVILY against your position and I gave you the opponents records during the 3 years we dont have, I further told you to look at your best season this decade for R3/R4 and you will see that neither team that won titles that season came close the SOS's of the teams in R1/R2 and your R3 teams won the title!!!:eek: I also told you what region's has dominated with titles during this decade and how many different teams produced those and how many of those teams Carroll has faced and who those teams had to face in doing so....It's called the writing that you dont want to see and you cant be helped to see it.
I have yet to see your SOS stats for 2000-2003.
Until then, nothing has been shot down.
I gave them to you for 2003.
2003- Carroll..32.4, Katy.........29.6
We dont have 2000-2002. Without question 2000 would go to Katy, without question 2002 would go to Carroll and I gave the records of opponents for those 3 years that show Carroll's opponents in 2001. You cant see what you dont want to. At the very least it's 7 years of SOS to Katy's 3, though the rankings I showed have the major edge in Carroll's favor. It is what it is, see it or dont.
ThEgReAtOnE
12-30-2009, 08:44 PM
As has been stated many many many times. Just look at that and you can plainly see who was R1/R2 vs. those few that were R3/R4 and again, how many of those teams did Katy play. Look at the entire decade and tell me how many tough teams did Katy play in the playoffs....You are now falling into "self owning" and I love it. You cant even realize when your arguments are against your own position.
I've laid out all the SOS's that are available and they are HEAVILY against your position and I gave you the opponents records during the 3 years we dont have, I further told you to look at your best season this decade for R3/R4 and you will see that neither team that won titles that season came close the SOS's of the teams in R1/R2 and your R3 teams won the title!!!:eek: I also told you what region's has dominated with titles during this decade and how many different teams produced those and how many of those teams Carroll has faced and who those teams had to face in doing so....It's called the writing that you dont want to see and you cant be helped to see it.
This. It's obvious! Most Katy fans seem to look at pure objectivity, while SLC fans look at both, subjectivity and objectivity. Just sayin!
This. It's obvious! Most Katy fans seem to look at pure objectivity, while SLC fans look at both, subjectivity and objectivity. Just sayin!
Some do recognize they played the weaker teams, the weaker path and in the weaker region, but then you get some that go so crazy, and they start self ownage. I love it!:)
ThEgReAtOnE
12-30-2009, 09:12 PM
Some do recognize they played the weaker teams, the weaker path and in the weaker region, but then you get some that go so crazy, and they start self ownage. I love it!:)
Like I've always said.. Self-Pwnage is a beautiful thing!
bigdaddydog
12-30-2009, 11:49 PM
Who has the most cars?
Dude 1: I have 30
Dude 2: I have 25, but 20 of them are Mercedes and 10 of Dada's are Hyundai's so I should be given credit for having the most cars...despite what the numbers say...SURE he has more.....but mine are more "Quality", numbers can be misleading. I AM THE OWNER OF THE MOST CARS
Dude 2 sounds like he has a vine full of sour grapes huh?
Reminds me of this argument.
Yeah but;
a Hyundai rolling on 24s > Any Mercedes!!
I saw it on TV so it must be true:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2750/4230568642_d9b73c55c5.jpg
~
[QUOTE=SLC;1440260]As has been stated many many many times. Just look at that and you can plainly see who was R1/R2 vs. those few that were R3/R4 and again, how many of those teams did Katy play. Look at the entire decade and tell me how many tough teams did Katy play in the playoffs....You are now falling into "self owning" and I love it. You cant even realize when your arguments are against your own position.
QUOTE]
If "self owning" was the case, I would only have posted stats that were clearly in Katy's favor as you do with Carroll. If you read the entire content of what I have written, you will see that I am trying to be objective. Just trying to show that the Tigers schedules from 2000-2003 were not as easy as many people think.
If "self owning" was the case, I would only have posted stats that were clearly in Katy's favor as you do with Carroll. If you read the entire content of what I have written, you will see that I am trying to be objective. Just trying to show that the Tigers schedules from 2000-2003 were not as easy as many people think.
Umm. I'm quite positive I have posted SOS's for both teams. I have posted opponents records for both teams, the totals and those in the 2000-2002 seasons. Look through both threads for items I have posted when comparing the two. There's plenty Tut, plenty.
Now, all in all, I spend my time looking at Carroll's achievements, as it is their arguement I am making. I wont do the same for Katy, as it is not them I am making an arguement for.:)
Umm. I'm quite positive I have posted SOS's for both teams. I have posted opponents records for both teams, the totals and those in the 2000-2002 seasons. Look through both threads for items I have posted when comparing the two. There's plenty Tut, plenty.
Now, all in all, I spend my time looking at Carroll's achievements, as it is their arguement I am making. I wont do the same for Katy, as it is not them I am making an arguement for.:)
I know that you have posted SOS from 2003-2009 and records for the first three years of the decade. The opponents ratings that from Pigskin Prep are where Jerry's SOS numbers come from. So the ratings I listed from 2000-2003 translate to ratings just like in the other years. I'm not going to figure out every teams ratings to get a 1-500ish order. Two was enough. :eek:
If you look back, 2002 & 2003 are very close (one each way) while 2001 is for Katy by at least the margin of Carroll's 2004-2006 schedules with 2000 about twice that.
When I am making a comparison, I look at both teams rather than just one. In other words, I'm not "just" being a homer making an argument for Katy. Sorry if it came across that way! :o
I know that you have posted SOS from 2003-2009 and records for the first three years of the decade. The opponents ratings that from Pigskin Prep are where Jerry's SOS numbers come from. So the ratings I listed from 2000-2003 translate to ratings just like in the other years. I'm not going to figure out every teams ratings to get a 1-500ish order. Two was enough. :eek:
If you look back, 2002 & 2003 are very close (one each way) while 2001 is for Katy by at least the margin of Carroll's 2004-2006 schedules with 2000 about twice that.
When I am making a comparison, I look at both teams rather than just one. In other words, I'm not "just" being a homer making an argument for Katy. Sorry if it came across that way! :o
Again, '03 showed to be in Carroll's favor and in '02 it does as well. '00 goes to Katy, while '01 has to go to Carroll when you look at the considerable difference in opponents records for that season. What you are using doesn't allocate the reason for the point drop in classes, especially when I know for a fact that Ennis was better then alot of 5A teams that season. That I recall they were on several national rankings, as were Mesquite and Lufkin.
Again, '03 showed to be in Carroll's favor and in '02 it does as well. '00 goes to Katy, while '01 has to go to Carroll when you look at the considerable difference in opponents records for that season. What you are using doesn't allocate the reason for the point drop in classes, especially when I know for a fact that Ennis was better then alot of 5A teams that season. That I recall they were on several national rankings, as were Mesquite and Lufkin.
'02 was slightly for Katy & '03 slightly for Carroll on the PP rating.
In '01, Ennis had a higher rating than everyone that Katy played except Madison and was included in the Dragons opponent rating.
'02 was slightly for Katy & '03 slightly for Carroll on the PP rating.
In '01, Ennis had a higher rating than everyone that Katy played except Madison and was included in the Dragons opponent rating.
You do realize the boosts in SOS Carroll gets, comes in the playoffs, right? While Carroll has played some good teams in the regular season, the major extent of their SOS is IN the playoffs, where if you lose...one game...you're going home. That said, there is no way Katy had a better SOS in 2002.
You do realize the boosts in SOS Carroll gets, comes in the playoffs, right? While Carroll has played some good teams in the regular season, the major extent of their SOS is IN the playoffs, where if you lose...one game...you're going home. That said, there is no way Katy had a better SOS in 2002.
Opponents ratings in 2002:
Games...........RS.......PO.......Tot
(15)..Katy....177.1...192.6...182.3
(16)..Carroll..174.5...193.2...181.5
85Roughneck
01-01-2010, 08:20 AM
interesting poll results ... ;)
rwilleby
01-01-2010, 09:05 AM
interesting poll results ... ;)
Okay, Katy wins TOD... 80-64... :)
Bill4par
01-01-2010, 01:06 PM
Yeah but;
a Hyundai rolling on 24s > Any Mercedes!!
I saw it on TV so it must be true:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2750/4230568642_d9b73c55c5.jpg
~
Dude, that is too rich!!!!:D
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