Bowie/SLC Discussion Thread...no Excuses just discussion

[slcdragonfan]

This thread is to discuss the game: refs, coaching, events, players, thoughts. IT is NOT AN EXCUSE THREAD for why anyone lost, just a place for honest football game discussion. Bowie won this game straight-up. Mano-a-mano. That is not open for discussion.

I'll start it off, but no need to get ugly, just honest discussion, M'kay?

TO on the FG, taking 3 points of the board. Anyone know what was going on there?
TO on the 4th down stop, allowing a second try, what was going on there?
The 4th down punt at half, with the whole team switching in and out, cool or what?

Other topics?

[SLCbacker]

This thread is to discuss the game: refs, coaching, events, players, thoughts. IT is NOT AN EXCUSE THREAD for why anyone lost, just a place for honest football game discussion. Bowie won this game straight-up. Mano-a-mano. That is not open for discussion.

I'll start it off, but no need to get ugly, just honest discussion, M'kay?

TO on the FG, taking 3 points of the board. Anyone know what was going on there?
TO on the 4th down stop, allowing a second try, what was going on there?
The 4th down punt at half, with the whole team switching in and out, cool or what?

Other topics?

Adjustments? :eek:

[yankee]

i could see this generating some good discussion, but i have a feeling this is going to turn into a giant pissing contest.

[E-Vol-ution]

Avers is a heart attack!:eek:

[ktCarl]

The 4th down punt at half, with the whole team switching in and out, cool or what?

11 guys come in for a play, don't huddle, don't set and run off field for punt team to run out there and punt which kept the Dragons from returning the kick. That's what I saw.

[texascoach]

11 guys come in for a play, don't huddle, don't set and run off field for punt team to run out there and punt which kept the Dragons from returning the kick. That's what I saw.

From what I saw on the punt team sub play, it should have been a penalty for not enough players on the line of scrimmage. It happened so fast, the officials did not get to count. Very good play indeed.

[E-Vol-ution]

It beat the clock........and definitely had everyone saying "WUT just happened there"?

11 guys come in for a play, don't huddle, don't set and run off field for punt team to run out there and punt which kept the Dragons from returning the kick. That's what I saw.

[toonman]

I have been working to a self imposed 24-Hours rule where I will not make game dissecting posts. I am about to go out for a family dinner, so I will not post again today. But here is a hypothetical question :-

If Perry was coaching the Dragons and Wasson had been coaching Bowie - who wins last night's game.

I will post my answer tomorrow.

[E-Vol-ution]

It was something else watching each of the kickers putting the ball deep or out of the end zone.

[slcdragonfan]

It was something else watching each of the kickers putting the ball deep or out of the end zone.

That kicker of yours was a well-kept secret to me. #32 is a soph?

[allendad]

Once again . . . .

North Texas beats eachother up
trying to make their way through
the gauntlet.

Congrats Bowie.

SLC had a tough two weeks.

Escaped last Saturday and ran into
a buzz-saw!

That is a lot to ask of any team.

I did not see this one coming.

What a great win.

Congrats again.

It must have been that secret weapon
Soph. RB for Bowie.;)

An exciting post season to say the least !:eek:


.

[ruffshod]

It has been interesting to say the least.:eek::eek:

[slcdragonfan]

It has been interesting to say the least.:eek::eek:

yes, as the saying goes..."May you live in interesting times".

[E-Vol-ution]

The kicker is a guy I've been touting for the past couple of years. That's Steve Valadez. Nice lefty kicker. I think Arkansas is getting him.#32 is a sophomore...that's Russell Hansborough, I thought the announcer intentionally forgot his name on the second half kickoff.:) He's got a nose for the end zone.
That kicker of yours was a well-kept secret to me. #32 is a soph?

[DPSimcho]

So is this the worst beating Carroll has taken since Wasson started?

[The Observer]

I have been working to a self imposed 24-Hours rule where I will not make game dissecting posts. I am about to go out for a family dinner, so I will not post again today. But here is a hypothetical question :-

If Perry was coaching the Dragons and Wasson had been coaching Bowie - who wins last night's game.

I will post my answer tomorrow.

Toonman - I'm sure I know where you are headed with this, but let me ask you a question -- is SLC able to get beat without it being on the coach? The game I went to last night had one team physically beat up another one. If you go ahead and switch coaches, what changes? I think one team is still more physical and athletic than the other one. Do you really think this team had the talent that if they didn't win every game, the only possible problem could have been the coach? And that is a honest question I would really liked answered by some of you guys.

In my mind, SLC has had trouble with uber-athletic teams this year (in my mind, an obvious achiles heel), that can man up on the outside and bring the heat. One thing you and SLCBacker have yet to admit is that the MAJOR difference between now and then is the TALENT. The reason those athletic teams couldn't pull that off before wasn't the coach, it was that you had game breakers at WR. Thats no knock on the kids this year, its just a fact, the guys this year were more of possesion guys. You had no one that was scary on the edges like Jacobson or Renfro, so when Northshore and Bowie played man-up, no one could punish them. Same thing on defense...injuries can kill you, and losing Rodgers KILLED you guys, and it really showed in this game, and in high school ball, you can't blame the coach for depth, because he has to play the hand he's dealt.

And if you want to talk adjustments, like SLCBacker keeps saying, you have to give credit for adjustments that work, too. I thought Allen was more talented than you guys, but overcame it with coaching and intangibles. SLC increased the tempo to the game on offense in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and Allen could not handle it. In my mind, it completely changed the flow of the game. My point is, from my unbiased, no agenda view (and from actually being at a lot of the SLC games), the coaching staff did a lot of things to change up that game (and others), and a lot of them worked. You can argue one individual call they made, and let that rub out the rest of that game and what they accomplished, and it appears you are ready to do that.

My overall question, though, remains the same. Was the only acceptable outcome this season a state title, and if the state title was not achieved, is the only possible reason the coach? I think Sakatha said something very smart on another thread. Do you think Dodge would at this point still have 1 loss and would have won 7 of 8 titles , because if you do, that helps me understand what the problem might be.

[the_phoenix612]

PMs

[drgnbkr]

PM's
Maybe it's just me, but this is not cool phoenix...:(

[the_phoenix612]

Maybe it's just me, but this is not cool phoenix...:(
neither is what he did, imo...

this is probably better in PM's.

[drgnbkr]

neither is what he did, imo...

this is probably better in PM's.

Agreed, but for some reason, I can see that there is a PM but I can't access it.??

[maxtor]

11 guys come in for a play, don't huddle, don't set and run off field for punt team to run out there and punt which kept the Dragons from returning the kick. That's what I saw.

Yep, thats what you call coaching. Heads up, thinks outside the box and brass cogs to boot(no pun intended). Kenny Perry would be handy to have around.:notworthy

[maxtor]

Agreed, but for some reason, I can see that there is a PM but I can't access it.??

Turn off your pop up blocker.

[maxtor]

Toonman - I'm sure I know where you are headed with this, but let me ask you a question -- is SLC able to get beat without it being on the coach? The game I went to last night had one team physically beat up another one. If you go ahead and switch coaches, what changes? I think one team is still more physical and athletic than the other one. Do you really think this team had the talent that if they didn't win every game, the only possible problem could have been the coach? And that is a honest question I would really liked answered by some of you guys.

In my mind, SLC has had trouble with uber-athletic teams this year (in my mind, an obvious achiles heel), that can man up on the outside and bring the heat. One thing you and SLCBacker have yet to admit is that the MAJOR difference between now and then is the TALENT. The reason those athletic teams couldn't pull that off before wasn't the coach, it was that you had game breakers at WR. Thats no knock on the kids this year, its just a fact, the guys this year were more of possesion guys. You had no one that was scary on the edges like Jacobson or Renfro, so when Northshore and Bowie played man-up, no one could punish them. Same thing on defense...injuries can kill you, and losing Rodgers KILLED you guys, and it really showed in this game, and in high school ball, you can't blame the coach for depth, because he has to play the hand he's dealt.

And if you want to talk adjustments, like SLCBacker keeps saying, you have to give credit for adjustments that work, too. I thought Allen was more talented than you guys, but overcame it with coaching and intangibles. SLC increased the tempo to the game on offense in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and Allen could not handle it. In my mind, it completely changed the flow of the game. My point is, from my unbiased, no agenda view (and from actually being at a lot of the SLC games), the coaching staff did a lot of things to change up that game (and others), and a lot of them worked. You can argue one individual call they made, and let that rub out the rest of that game and what they accomplished, and it appears you are ready to do that.

My overall question, though, remains the same. Was the only acceptable outcome this season a state title, and if the state title was not achieved, is the only possible reason the coach? I think Sakatha said something very smart on another thread. Do you think Dodge would at this point still have 1 loss and would have won 7 of 8 titles , because if you do, that helps me understand what the problem might be.

I think Toon asked a legit question. You may disagree with the strength of the actual effect of such a coaching swap but I dont think the man is Satan for asking the question. Dont take it so personal.:)
There are some SLC followers that are on the "inside" along with a bunch that are not. With that said a few outright say that Wasson isnt gitten it.
Then there are some that hint around at such a thing.
Then there are the guys in the know and they dont say anything. Their silence is deafening.

[E-Vol-ution]

I really don't think there's a serious Wasson item to be addressed.
Coach Perry's past experience against SLC was when Dodge was there in '02 and he had a 5 loss Sam Houston team.
Needless to say, he took Dodge to the brink.
So....we have no experience with Wasson obviously, and he didn't build the SLC system.
Perry built Bowie so it's an unfair comparison.
All anyone can do is speculate what type effect Wasson would have had at Bowie.......because even you guys don't know how he does in that arena.
These kids at SLC performed at a very high level.......I'd leave that alone.
The question has the same validity as me posting whether we would have beat SLC last night if we had oodles of championships and SLC was hungry and upcoming. There'd just be more questions. It's not offensive, it just seems like venting.
I think Toon asked a legit question. You may disagree with the strength of the actual effect of such a coaching swap but I dont think the man is Satan for asking the question. Dont take it so personal.:)
There are some SLC followers that are on the "inside" along with a bunch that are not. With that said a few outright say that Wasson isnt gitten it.
Then there are some that hint around at such a thing.
Then there are the guys in the know and they dont say anything. Their silence is deafening.

[Vols4Ever]

I would sincerely hope that the Carroll faithful are NOT calling for Wasson's head for going 11-2.

Bowie fans know bad coaching - the kind that keeps your program losing for YEARS. Certainly, Carroll is no where near being a losing program.

If every Carroll coach is held up to a STRICT standard of Ledbetter and Dodge --- that is an immensely difficult task to match year in and year out. To a certain extent, one could argue that it is not fair to place such lofty expectations on a head coach.

[SLC]

I really don't think there's a serious Wasson item to be addressed.
Coach Perry's past experience against SLC was when Dodge was there in '02 and he had a 5 loss Sam Houston team.
Needless to say, he took Dodge to the brink.
So....we have no experience with Wasson obviously, and he didn't build the SLC system.
Perry built Bowie so it's an unfair comparison.
All anyone can do is speculate what type effect Wasson would have had at Bowie.......because even you guys don't know how he does in that arena.
These kids at SLC performed at a very high level.......I'd leave that alone.
The question has the same validity as me posting whether we would have beat SLC last night if we had oodles of championships and SLC was hungry and upcoming. There'd just be more questions. It's not offensive, it just seems like venting.


A most excellent response sir.:notworthy


The simple truth is..we dont know the answer to that question.


To many, the thought is with a different coach we are somehow knocking on the 10th state title's front door. But I have seen the greatest of coaches fail to win titles. I have seen the greatest of coaches make mistakes in games. I have seen the greatest of coaches have their kids make mistakes in games. I have also seen the greatest of coaches go against other teams and get their ***** handed to them. Yup, it happens.

[maxtor]

I really don't think there's a serious Wasson item to be addressed.
Coach Perry's past experience against SLC was when Dodge was there in '02 and he had a 5 loss Sam Houston team.
Needless to say, he took Dodge to the brink.
So....we have no experience with Wasson obviously, and he didn't build the SLC system.
Perry built Bowie so it's an unfair comparison.
All anyone can do is speculate what type effect Wasson would have had at Bowie.......because even you guys don't know how he does in that arena.
These kids at SLC performed at a very high level.......I'd leave that alone.
The question has the same validity as me posting whether we would have beat SLC last night if we had oodles of championships and SLC was hungry and upcoming. There'd just be more questions. It's not offensive, it just seems like venting.

I see your point but Toons question assumes that the various practical matters would be a moot point.
He simply is dissatisfied with Wasson and wants to know what if SLC had Perry instead.
If SLC had Perry they would either be worse, the same or better than they are now. My guess is that He assumes that SLC would be better off with Perry.
In my honset opinion and crying aside. If it were announced that Wasson was stepping down in 2010 and Perry was taking his spot I doubt seriously that you would see the SLC masses descending upon Town Square with torches and pitchforks.:)

[The Observer]

A most excellent response sir.:notworthy


The simple truth is..we dont know the answer to that question.


To many, the thought is with a different coach we are somehow knocking on the 10th state title's front door. But I have seen the greatest of coaches fail to win titles. I have seen the greatest of coaches make mistakes in games. I have seen the greatest of coaches have their kids make mistakes in games. I have also seen the greatest of coaches go against other teams and get their ***** handed to them. Yup, it happens.

I think this is a more efficient way of saying what I took 3 paragraphs to write. Getting your butt handed to you doesn't always equate back to coaching. Sometimes the other team is just better. I was at the game, and I've seen SLC numerous times this year. Switch the coaches and it doesn't matter....its all about matchups, and Bowie (and other teams this year with elite speed) are bad matchups for this particular SLC squad.

[justafan50]

I don't see where there is much to discuss. Bowie came out and executed their game plan to perfection. They just lined up and smacked Carroll in the mouth on every play and in every phase of the game. They pressed our receivers and took the timing routes away in the passing game.Their physical strength and team speed was evident all night long.


The ref's had about as much influence on this game as I did sitting in the stands. They let the kid's decide the game on the field, as it should be.

[ktCarl]

I have been working to a self imposed 24-Hours rule where I will not make game dissecting posts. I am about to go out for a family dinner, so I will not post again today. But here is a hypothetical question :-

If Perry was coaching the Dragons and Wasson had been coaching Bowie - who wins last night's game.

I will post my answer tomorrow.

You might have a point there. Perry found Carroll's weak link and his team was able to execute and exploited it. I know there is a great anti-Wasson sentiment in Southlake (heard it from fans while leaving Ford) but the Dragon QB underperformed Friday night. How much of that is Wasson? Was Wasson ineffective in preparing his QB? I did think that he abandoned using #21 too early. That kid could have been a difference maker in the game. The Dragon DB's were also overmatched. That's not Wasson.

Now ya'll can tear me apart. :cool:

[dragonbuck]

nm

[justafan50]

You might have a point there. Perry found Carroll's weak link and his team was able to execute and exploited it. I know there is a great anti-Wasson sentiment in Southlake (heard it from fans while leaving Ford) but the Dragon QB underperformed Friday night. How much of that is Wasson? Was Wasson ineffective in preparing his QB? I did think that he abandoned using #21 too early. That kid could have been a difference maker in the game. The Dragon DB's were also overmatched. That's not Wasson.

Now ya'll can tear me apart. :cool:
If you were at the game you noticed most passes were well over thrown...everything was too long. Give some credit to the Bowie defensive backs for taking the receivers out of their timing routes by jamming them on the line of scrimmage.

[dragonbuck]

I think this is a more efficient way of saying what I took 3 paragraphs to write. Getting your butt handed to you doesn't always equate back to coaching. Sometimes the other team is just better. I was at the game, and I've seen SLC numerous times this year. Switch the coaches and it doesn't matter....its all about matchups, and Bowie (and other teams this year with elite speed) are bad matchups for this particular SLC squad.

I am not disagreeing in this case, nor am I agreeing. However, there were several cases where a Dodge team beat a more talented opponent. 16-18 year olds play on emotion and faith. Talent is only 65% of it. In college, I would say it is 75%, and in the pros, it is 85%. Not scientific, but pretty close IMHO. Dodge was able to bring out the best in his guys, and that is rare. Hal is a good man. He is what he is. What do we want? Earl Bruce, or Nick Saben?

[justafan50]

Growing up in Ohio and watching Buckeye football... calling anyone Earl Bruce is a slap in the face. His greatest claim to fame was taking Art to the race tracks:)

[SLCbacker]

Toonman - I'm sure I know where you are headed with this, but let me ask you a question -- is SLC able to get beat without it being on the coach? The game I went to last night had one team physically beat up another one. If you go ahead and switch coaches, what changes? I think one team is still more physical and athletic than the other one. Do you really think this team had the talent that if they didn't win every game, the only possible problem could have been the coach? And that is a honest question I would really liked answered by some of you guys.

In my mind, SLC has had trouble with uber-athletic teams this year (in my mind, an obvious achiles heel), that can man up on the outside and bring the heat. One thing you and SLCBacker have yet to admit is that the MAJOR difference between now and then is the TALENT. The reason those athletic teams couldn't pull that off before wasn't the coach, it was that you had game breakers at WR. Thats no knock on the kids this year, its just a fact, the guys this year were more of possession guys. You had no one that was scary on the edges like Jacobson or Renfro, so when Northshore and Bowie played man-up, no one could punish them. Same thing on defense...injuries can kill you, and losing Rodgers KILLED you guys, and it really showed in this game, and in high school ball, you can't blame the coach for depth, because he has to play the hand he's dealt.

And if you want to talk adjustments, like SLCBacker keeps saying, you have to give credit for adjustments that work, too. I thought Allen was more talented than you guys, but overcame it with coaching and intangibles. SLC increased the tempo to the game on offense in the 2nd and 3rd quarters, and Allen could not handle it. In my mind, it completely changed the flow of the game. My point is, from my unbiased, no agenda view (and from actually being at a lot of the SLC games), the coaching staff did a lot of things to change up that game (and others), and a lot of them worked. You can argue one individual call they made, and let that rub out the rest of that game and what they accomplished, and it appears you are ready to do that.

My overall question, though, remains the same. Was the only acceptable outcome this season a state title, and if the state title was not achieved, is the only possible reason the coach? I think Sakatha said something very smart on another thread. Do you think Dodge would at this point still have 1 loss and would have won 7 of 8 titles , because if you do, that helps me understand what the problem might be.

Good observations, Observer. First, please address me in response to my post, not Toonman's. I do not know Toonman. I do agree with some of his points, but not all.

In regards to the Allen game, I think the first 59 minutes were very well coached and played. The players were well prepared and executed the plan extremely well.

The time management meltdown at the end of regulation was inexcusable. It took a lot of creativity to almost lose that game. I will not argue whether to punt or take a safety in that particular situation (smart money is on running the clock out with a safety). Regardless, Just take a timeout, have a plan, share the plan with your team, discuss situations (like not downing the ball)...it is called coaching. Timeouts are used for head coaches to coach during a game. Carroll ended an incredibly close game with all 3 timeouts! I know Hal attempted to call a TO, and did not get it after the punt team had run on the field. Why would anyone wait that long to attempt to call a TO in that situation? Calm down your team. Have a plan!....He Failed. Then the snap was high, kick almost blocked, kick was short, kick was downed with one second on the clock.......He blames kid that downed the ball? Great Leadership Coach.

Putting the team in jeopardy to lose a game in OT that could have ended in regulation had the HC managed it properly kinda made me forget the positive....forgive me. It was Abilene all over again...a catastrophic meltdown ("wig out" is how the players described it) by the HC. My issue is the lack of personal accountability in these obviously grossly mismanaged situations, and blame on player/players. THIS is what I mean when I say we can do better, our kids deserve better.

[SLCbacker]

I am not disagreeing in this case, nor am I agreeing. However, there were several cases where a Dodge team beat a more talented opponent. 16-18 year olds play on emotion and faith. Talent is only 65% of it. In college, I would say it is 75%, and in the pros, it is 85%. Not scientific, but pretty close IMHO. Dodge was able to bring out the best in his guys, and that is rare. Hal is a good man. He is what he is. What do we want? Earl Bruce, or Nick Saben?

Well said Dragonbuck.

[dragonbuck]

Growing up in Ohio and watching Buckeye football... calling anyone Earl Bruce is a slap in the face. His greatest claim to fame was taking Art to the race tracks:)

I can tell you some stories about Artie. We actually double dated back in the day. We went to Scioto Downs and bet on the horses. (Not a night I am proud of; however, I did live to tell about it.)

That was not a slap in the face to Hal. Earl was a good man with good results, as is Hal. He helps raise good men. I would rather support a team of 22 good men, than a team of 22 punks. As a father of all daughters, I can tell you, that the world is short on good men these days. Again, do you want Earl Bruce or Nick Saben? Do you want an up and comer, or a proven 80% winner? The jury is still out. The trick is finding, supporting and keeping a man of charatcter that can build a team of winners with character and integrity, that will leave a legacy at SC and make the world a better place in years to come. Maybe we need an Earl Saban

[Drag Goon]

If you were at the game you noticed most passes were well over thrown...everything was too long. Give some credit to the Bowie defensive backs for taking the receivers out of their timing routes by jamming them on the line of scrimmage.

The jamming extended well past the line of scrimmage and was only caused once. I agree, this had a major impact on the game. SLC needed to make Bowie pay for their tight coverage to open it up but they were not.

Regarding the punt when Bowie substituted their entire offense for the punt team. First off, what is the rule regarding late substituting? I thought there was something that was a penalty but don't know how that actually works. I remember seeing something in the Marcus game I think where they were getting ready to punt and the wide receiver came on late or left late or something and would have been called for a penalty if SLC had not called a timeout. Also, what is the rule when a team is coming in late like that and they are on the defensive side of the ball and then cross over to the offense? Why is that not a false start?

I couldn't believe they were actually going for the 4th day play before SLC got the timeout. They were very lucky that the timeout was called because it looked like SLC had stopped them. That would have been a monumental coaching blunder IMO because there was very little to gain and so much to lose since there was only about 20 second left in the half and around their own 30.

Regarding the coaching. I think Hal was the right hire following Dodge. He was pretty much in a no win situation. If they win, it is because of Dodge and if they lose it is his fault. It is almost impossible to follow a coach with as much success as Dodge had. I do think he has made some mistakes but that comes with the territory. I have always thought Perry is a top notch coach. He seems to thrive on taking an athletic underdog and bringing them up. I would be curious to see how he would do in a situation where the team has had recent success and he has to continue the streak such as taking over for Dodge.

I do want to congratulate Bowie on a great game against the Dragons. They won both sides of the ball and even the special teams. Just don't let the Dragon game be your Super Bowl. You will need to come out against Abilene with an even bigger chip on your shoulder. Continue to hunger for the next game and give it all you've got! Good luck!:notworthy

[texascoach]

After the game, Hal was verbally assaulted on the field in front of his family, coaches, and a few players by an immature idiot who was obviously drunk. This particular person who is well known in the community pretty much embarrassed himself and his family. The person was escorted off of the field and will face severe consequences.

Wheter you agree with Coach Wasson or not, NO coach deserves what was witnessed Friday night. You can also say that criticism comes with the job. Yes, coaches understand that criticism does come with the job but not abuse.

Many of you have placed Hal in a no-win situation and your anonymous rants and subtle suggestions on the web fuel the fire. If you have a problem with Hal or any other coach, be a man and schedule an appointment to address your concerns.

In the coaching world, the stereotype about Southlake unrealistic expectations are out there and I know that many coaches think it is not worth it to put themsleves or their family through the abuse. Look it up, Kenny Perry makes a lot more per year than Hal and I bet he would have to consider long and hard to take a pay cut and face the abuse that he witnessed Hal take after the game Friday.

[twcpfan1]

Would not have made a difference who was coaching SLC. The spread is a much better known commodity now compared to what it was when Dodge was coaching. If you have the better athletes, you're going to do well running the spread.

[twcpfan1]

After the game, Hal was verbally assaulted on the field in front of his family, coaches, and a few players by an immature idiot who was obviously drunk. This particular person who is well known in the community pretty much embarrassed himself and his family. The person was escorted off of the field and will face severe consequences.

Wheter you agree with Coach Wasson or not, NO coach deserves what was witnessed Friday night. You can also say that criticism comes with the job. Yes, coaches understand that criticism does come with the job but not abuse.

Many of you have placed Hal in a no-win situation and your anonymous rants and subtle suggestions on the web fuel the fire. If you have a problem with Hal or any other coach, be a man and schedule an appointment to address your concerns.



In the coaching world, the stereotype about Southlake unrealistic expectations are out there and I know that many coaches think it is not worth it to put themsleves or their family through the abuse. Look it up, Kenny Perry makes a lot more per year than Hal and I bet he would have to consider long and hard to take a pay cut and face the abuse that he witnessed Hal take after the game Friday.

Without narrowing it down too much, was it a student or an adult (parent) that acted like an idiot?

[texascoach]

Without narrowing it down too much, was it a student or an adult (parent) that acted like an idiot?

Adult

[green day]

...it wasn't a student.

[SLC93]

Would not have made a difference who was coaching SLC. The spread is a much better known commodity now compared to what it was when Dodge was coaching. If you have the better athletes, you're going to do well running the spread.

As soon as the most athletic team running the spread in the state actually wins a title, we'll revisit this. Fail. You know i respect your opinions but your open hatred of this formation skews everything you write about it.

[SLC93]

...it wasn't a student.

anyone care to pm me the details?

[toonman]

......In my mind, SLC has had trouble with uber-athletic teams this year (in my mind, an obvious achiles heel), that can man up on the outside and bring the heat. One thing you and SLCBacker have yet to admit is that the MAJOR difference between now and then is the TALENT. The reason those athletic teams couldn't pull that off before wasn't the coach, it was that you had game breakers at WR. Thats no knock on the kids this year, its just a fact, the guys this year were more of possesion guys. You had no one that was scary on the edges like Jacobson or Renfro, so when Northshore and Bowie played man-up, no one could punish them. Same thing on defense...injuries can kill you, and losing Rodgers KILLED you guys, and it really showed in this game, and in high school ball, you can't blame the coach for depth, because he has to play the hand he's dealt.
......

Let me check my understanding of what you are trying to say has happened in last the last three years :-

1). The Talent Pool has dried up
2). There are more injuries now than ever before
3). All the luck has run out
4). All the opponents have become much better

Wasson is a great coach who now has to work with less talent, more injuries, no luck and better opponents. Do I have this right?

[twcpfan1]

As soon as the most athletic team running the spread in the state actually wins a title, we'll revisit this. Fail. You know i respect your opinions but your open hatred of this formation skews everything you write about it.

Well my opinion on the formation is irrelevant here. The fact is more teams are running it now and are a heck of a lot better at it than during the SLC championship years . My point is even Todd Dodge running this offense would face more of a challenge in these times

If it's spread v spread, the team with the better athletes will win most of the time, now that everybody plays it at a high level.

[twcpfan1]

Let me check my understanding of what you are trying to say has happened in last the last three years :-

1). The Talent Pool has dried up
2). There are more injuries now than ever before
3). All the luck has run out
4). All the opponents have become much better

Wasson is a great coach who now has to work with less talent, more injuries, no luck and better opponents. Do I have this right?

I believe so.

I thought at first it was the coaching too. But No. Perhaps it has some to do with it, but I believe it is for the most part the points you just brought up.

[twcpfan1]

As soon as the most athletic team running the spread in the state actually wins a title, we'll revisit this. Fail. You know i respect your opinions but your open hatred of this formation skews everything you write about it.

Cedar Hill in 06?

Hightower and Allen in 08?

Look at what happened to Wylie with mollasses type speed at the QB position.

And please do not even start with SLC not having great athletes in their championship years. Those receivers were fast fast fast. So was Riley and Chase.

[E-Vol-ution]

There are many different variations of the spread.
The type both Bowie and SLC run takes a heck of a lot more than atheletes. It takes a very sharp coach that is well versed in the type he is using, sharp kids to run it and a sharp qb that can read defenses. Of course atheletes help, as it would with any offensive set.Would not have made a difference who was coaching SLC. The spread is a much better known commodity now compared to what it was when Dodge was coaching. If you have the better athletes, you're going to do well running the spread.

[twcpfan1]

There are many different variations of the spread.
The type both Bowie and SLC run takes a heck of a lot more than atheletes. It takes a very sharp coach that is well versed in the type he is using, sharp kids to run it and a sharp qb that can read defenses. Of course atheletes help, as it would with any offensive set.

So given all of that, do you think it was coaching that won the game for Bowie? Or did they have the better athletes/players?

[E-Vol-ution]

It was a combination of all of those things and timing. In addition it was our day.So given all of that, do you think it was coaching that won the game for Bowie? Or did they have the better athletes/players?

[33Blood]

the Dragon QB underperformed Friday night. How much of that is Wasson? Was Wasson ineffective in preparing his QB?

I would say a lot. Dodge is able to get great numbers out of the QB position even with bad talent on horrible teams as he has done at UNT. Vizza put up good numbers even though the teams stunk and lost every way possible. That guy can get the QB to perform.

[D1X]

observations...

toonman - say what you want (and please don't resort to your passive-aggressive nature) but you have an agenda concerning the slc hc. you'll deny this with some long winded rhetoric about how you never have said that and its just what others read into it. so just for discussion sake, list your top five replacements and why.

phoenix_612 - thank goodness you edited your asinine comment regarding one of the slc players.

[toonman]

observations...

toonman - say what you want (and please don't resort to your passive-aggressive nature) but you have an agenda concerning the slc hc. you'll deny this with some long winded rhetoric about how you never have said that and its just what others read into it. so just for discussion sake, list your top five replacements and why.

phoenix_612 - thank goodness you edited your asinine comment regarding one of the slc players.

For discussion purposes I will certainly give you a list of five replacements; once I have created this list as I do not have such a list at this time.

[slcdragonfan]

After the game, Hal was verbally assaulted on the field in front of his family, coaches, and a few players by an immature idiot who was obviously drunk. This particular person who is well known in the community pretty much embarrassed himself and his family. The person was escorted off of the field and will face severe consequences.

Wheter you agree with Coach Wasson or not, NO coach deserves what was witnessed Friday night. You can also say that criticism comes with the job. Yes, coaches understand that criticism does come with the job but not abuse.

Many of you have placed Hal in a no-win situation and your anonymous rants and subtle suggestions on the web fuel the fire. If you have a problem with Hal or any other coach, be a man and schedule an appointment to address your concerns.

In the coaching world, the stereotype about Southlake unrealistic expectations are out there and I know that many coaches think it is not worth it to put themsleves or their family through the abuse. Look it up, Kenny Perry makes a lot more per year than Hal and I bet he would have to consider long and hard to take a pay cut and face the abuse that he witnessed Hal take after the game Friday.

Wow. This is just awful. This should NEVER happen, any part of it.

As for the second part, unfortunately, that appears to be the way things are done today. See Obama.

The point of this thread was not to abuse our Coach. I DID want to discuss some decisions in the game to better understand what happened. That happens with Lufkin, ET, RRSP, P-ville, and other schools without it getting ugly. But the purpose was discussion and explanation: I did get a lot from our discussion after the Allen game, all vitriol aside. I would still like to discuss this game, but not in the context of deriding our staff.:(

[slcdragonfan]

I would say a lot. Dodge is able to get great numbers out of the QB position even with bad talent on horrible teams as he has done at UNT. Vizza put up good numbers even though the teams stunk and lost every way possible. That guy can get the QB to perform.

No. This is a fail. Give Bowie credit here. Also, Piland is a fine QB, but he has had two off days at least, both against athletically gifted teams that destroyed the timing. At the end, he was just frustrated....

Piland was an outstanding QB this season, and is a D1 recruit @ Houston. You will see him again.

[E-Vol-ution]

Piland is a very good QB.......and I agree he can't be blamed for a disruption of timing routes.
He was masterful in his attack of the Allen defense and left it all on the field against Bowie.
Gentry was getting the ball and killing us.........somebody was putting the ball in his hands. He took some shots too and never stayed down.
No. This is a fail. Give Bowie credit here. Also, Piland is a fine QB, but he has had two off days at least, both against athletically gifted teams that destroyed the timing. At the end, he was just frustrated....

Piland was an outstanding QB this season, and is a D1 recruit @ Houston. You will see him again.

[The Observer]

Let me check my understanding of what you are trying to say has happened in last the last three years :-

1). The Talent Pool has dried up
2). There are more injuries now than ever before
3). All the luck has run out
4). All the opponents have become much better

Wasson is a great coach who now has to work with less talent, more injuries, no luck and better opponents. Do I have this right?

You may disagree, but the SLC teams in 2004 and 2005 were some of the most talented teams I've ever seen in high school ball. Just watch TV on Saturdays and they are all over the place. Who from this years team will be a stud on Saturdays? I brought up injuries only because the only kid I think will be a star on Saturday's got hurt. Luck is what it is. Dodge got some bounces, but those even out over time no matter who is coaching. On point #4, I don't think I said the opponents have gotten better. If you read that from my post, then I didn't come across right. The opponents are the same, I just think y'all (still VERY talented) have come back dpwn to earth talent-wise.

This is not a knock on the kids or anything like that (I'm sure it will get taken like that), SLC has LOADS of talent, but if you think Hal is dealing with the same level of talent the last two years that Dodge had in 2004, 2005, and 2006 you are either a parent of someone on this years team, naive, or have an agenda. My question remains the same as it has been for weeks and has never been answered - do you think Dodge would have won 7 out of 8 titles at this point? Because that is what it sounds like. Also do you think the only way this team wasn't winning a title is because of coaching? Those are two very easy questions that could let me know where you are coming from a little more.

[Classof10Dragons]

After the game, Hal was verbally assaulted on the field in front of his family, coaches, and a few players by an immature idiot who was obviously drunk. This particular person who is well known in the community pretty much embarrassed himself and his family. The person was escorted off of the field and will face severe consequences.
Wheter you agree with Coach Wasson or not, NO coach deserves what was witnessed Friday night. You can also say that criticism comes with the job. Yes, coaches understand that criticism does come with the job but not abuse.

Many of you have placed Hal in a no-win situation and your anonymous rants and subtle suggestions on the web fuel the fire. If you have a problem with Hal or any other coach, be a man and schedule an appointment to address your concerns.
In the coaching world, the stereotype about Southlake unrealistic expectations are out there and I know that many coaches think it is not worth it to put themsleves or their family through the abuse. Look it up, Kenny Perry makes a lot more per year than Hal and I bet he would have to consider long and hard to take a pay cut and face the abuse that he witnessed Hal take after the game Friday.

Hope this person does see some consequences for his behavior. Totally uncalled for and wrong. Many members of the team have totally bought into Hal, and have enjoyed their varsity experience with him and with the other coaches. Unfortunately, there are a number of Dodge era siblings on this team (and posters) that will never give Hal the respect he deserves.

Even though we don't have a state championship this year, we have a team of young men that have played through some "character building" games and have memories to last them a lifetime. Thanks for a great season, coaches!

[yankee]

You may disagree, but the SLC teams in 2004 and 2005 were some of the most talented teams I've ever seen in high school ball. Just watch TV on Saturdays and they are all over the place. Who from this years team will be a stud on Saturdays? I brought up injuries only because the only kid I think will be a star on Saturday's got hurt. Luck is what it is. Dodge got some bounces, but those even out over time no matter who is coaching. On point #4, I don't think I said the opponents have gotten better. If you read that from my post, then I didn't come across right. The opponents are the same, I just think y'all (still VERY talented) have come back dpwn to earth talent-wise.

This is not a knock on the kids or anything like that (I'm sure it will get taken like that), SLC has LOADS of talent, but if you think Hal is dealing with the same level of talent the last two years that Dodge had in 2004, 2005, and 2006 you are either a parent of someone on this years team, naive, or have an agenda. My question remains the same as it has been for weeks and has never been answered - do you think Dodge would have won 7 out of 8 titles at this point? Because that is what it sounds like. Also do you think the only way this team wasn't winning a title is because of coaching? Those are two very easy questions that could let me know where you are coming from a little more.

there are plenty of potential candidates on this team. there's already 6 committed to Division 1 schools, and potentially several more that might ink their name come february. i don't think anyone can doubt the talent that was on this team (and i do realize you aren't doing that).

[The Observer]

Good observations, Observer. First, please address me in response to my post, not Toonman's. I do not know Toonman. I do agree with some of his points, but not all.

In regards to the Allen game, I think the first 59 minutes were very well coached and played. The players were well prepared and executed the plan extremely well.

The time management meltdown at the end of regulation was inexcusable. It took a lot of creativity to almost lose that game. I will not argue whether to punt or take a safety in that particular situation (smart money is on running the clock out with a safety). Regardless, Just take a timeout, have a plan, share the plan with your team, discuss situations (like not downing the ball)...it is called coaching. Timeouts are used for head coaches to coach during a game. Carroll ended an incredibly close game with all 3 timeouts! I know Hal attempted to call a TO, and did not get it after the punt team had run on the field. Why would anyone wait that long to attempt to call a TO in that situation? Calm down your team. Have a plan!....He Failed. Then the snap was high, kick almost blocked, kick was short, kick was downed with one second on the clock.......He blames kid that downed the ball? Great Leadership Coach.

Putting the team in jeopardy to lose a game in OT that could have ended in regulation had the HC managed it properly kinda made me forget the positive....forgive me. It was Abilene all over again...a catastrophic meltdown ("wig out" is how the players described it) by the HC. My issue is the lack of personal accountability in these obviously grossly mismanaged situations, and blame on player/players. THIS is what I mean when I say we can do better, our kids deserve better.

I only grouped you and toonman together because your points never differ. I would have bet every cent that I own that the two of you would be out leading the Fire Hal parade whenever and however SLC was knocked out. And I brought up the adjustments thing off-hand because I have seen you write that on about three different threads, and I couldn't quote them all. But I understand your point, and I'll try to just quote you seperately.

I don't disagree (at all) with what you said about the end of the Allen game. Whether or not a time out was trying to be called is irrelevant. It should have been called from the sideline with Hal standing right next to the ref, not searching out for one. You could see in the replay on Fox SW, they just ran out and looked all out of sync. The end of the game was mangled, no other way to say it. With that said, the point I can't understand is who do you give credit to for showing the tremendous character to come back and win that game. A whole lot of teams would have folded right there. But where does that come from? If you think its "the kids playing through it", I don't know what to tell you. Dodge has been gone for 3 years. This is Hals team and how they react to situations is a direct reflection on Hal. The fact that they won the game says WAY more about him than a blown call at the end of the game.

And as far as the accountability goes, I don't know. What I DO know is that there are a load of players parents on this board, and I have seen them defend him for two years. If he constantly threw players under the bus, why would these parents be in his corner?

And by the way, the Abilene game I would describe more as the greatest second guess in the history of second guesses and not a "catastrophic meltdown", but thats just me.

[toonman]

My question remains the same as it has been for weeks and has never been answered - do you think Dodge would have won 7 out of 8 titles at this point? Because that is what it sounds like. Also do you think the only way this team wasn't winning a title is because of coaching? Those are two very easy questions that could let me know where you are coming from a little more.

We will never know and I could say yes the Dragons would have won 7 of 8 titles at the points with Dodge as coach and you will say no. All we have is a differing point of view. But I am certain that the Dragons would won some of the 7 games the Dragons have lost under Wasson's watch. Miami Northwest and Abilene in 2007 for a start; but again we will never know.

[farmerfan]

I tried telling you all that you were not as good as you thought. A very fine season but maybe next year a little humble pie will shut some of your fans up. When I heard the score I did LOL because a lot of your fans were convinced you were going to win a state title and those that know the game and saw your team play knew otherwise.

[JagFan]

I fully understand the part where some love the coach and some don't. But can you not put it off for a few days? My heart does go out to these players and the parents of Seniors. They deserve a few days of just absorbing that last Friday was the end. Actually about a week.

From what I have watched(the games I have been to) and read on this board those boys left everything on the field. That is all they can give. It sounds like most of those same players love their coaches. I know how it hurt my son when people took shots at his coaches. It did not matter if they were right or not he had been through the trenches with those men and the last thing he needed was someone yelling about the men he admired. All he wanted was to be left alone for a few days to lick his wounds and come to grips with the fact that his football days are over and the comfort that there were a group of people that supported him period. No what ifs was his saying when people started in. He had a great high school carreer and the memories would last forever as would the friendships. Two years later he still has those memories and friendships.

[E-Vol-ution]

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthyI fully understand the part where some love the coach and some don't. But can you not put it off for a few days? My heart does go out to these players and the parents of Seniors. They deserve a few days of just absorbing that last Friday was the end. Actually about a week.

From what I have watched(the games I have been to) and read on this board those boys left everything on the field. That is all they can give. It sounds like most of those same players love their coaches. I know how it hurt my son when people took shots at his coaches. It did not matter if they were right or not he had been through the trenches with those men and the last thing he needed was someone yelling about the men he admired. All he wanted was to be left alone for a few days to lick his wounds and come to grips with the fact that his football days are over and the comfort that there were a group of people that supported him period. No what ifs was his saying when people started in. He had a great high school carreer and the memories would last forever as would the friendships. Two years later he still has those memories and friendships.

[BigRing5311]

nm

[farmerfan]

We will never know and I could say yes the Dragons would have won 7 of 8 titles at the points with Dodge as coach and you will say no. All we have is a differing point of view. But I am certain that the Dragons would won some of the 7 games the Dragons have lost under Wasson's watch. Miami Northwest and Abilene in 2007 for a start; but again we will never know.

You know, maybe Dodge walked in to the perfect situation. He had some incredibly talented classes even those there are some that say they weren't. Dodge sucked before he came to Southlake and Dodge has sucked since he has left Southlake so get off of this coaching crap. Go out and do it yourself if you are convinced a change needs to be made. If you do not have the cajones to do it then get off of this. Your team this year would not have won a state title regardless of Dodge being there or not. You were not as good as you thought.

[CCCSportsFan]

You may disagree, but the SLC teams in 2004 and 2005 were some of the most talented teams I've ever seen in high school ball. Just watch TV on Saturdays and they are all over the place. Who from this years team will be a stud on Saturdays? I brought up injuries only because the only kid I think will be a star on Saturday's got hurt. Luck is what it is. Dodge got some bounces, but those even out over time no matter who is coaching. On point #4, I don't think I said the opponents have gotten better. If you read that from my post, then I didn't come across right. The opponents are the same, I just think y'all (still VERY talented) have come back dpwn to earth talent-wise.

This is not a knock on the kids or anything like that (I'm sure it will get taken like that), SLC has LOADS of talent, but if you think Hal is dealing with the same level of talent the last two years that Dodge had in 2004, 2005, and 2006 you are either a parent of someone on this years team, naive, or have an agenda. My question remains the same as it has been for weeks and has never been answered - do you think Dodge would have won 7 out of 8 titles at this point? Because that is what it sounds like. Also do you think the only way this team wasn't winning a title is because of coaching? Those are two very easy questions that could let me know where you are coming from a little more.

And these extremely talented kids were running an offense that most DC's still hadn't gotten a handle on how to stop...

When the stars, the moon and the planets align, you have to take advantage of it and Dodge did...

[farmerfan]

Farmer - as :Censor: brilliant as you are I'm sure my good friend Coach Olin could find a place for you on his staff.

Great comeback sir. I never claimed my team was world beaters. You all did though and those that saw the game knew different. You were not as good as you thought and I know reality is a *****.

[CCCSportsFan]

I fully understand the part where some love the coach and some don't. But can you not put it off for a few days? My heart does go out to these players and the parents of Seniors. They deserve a few days of just absorbing that last Friday was the end. Actually about a week.

From what I have watched(the games I have been to) and read on this board those boys left everything on the field. That is all they can give. It sounds like most of those same players love their coaches. I know how it hurt my son when people took shots at his coaches. It did not matter if they were right or not he had been through the trenches with those men and the last thing he needed was someone yelling about the men he admired. All he wanted was to be left alone for a few days to lick his wounds and come to grips with the fact that his football days are over and the comfort that there were a group of people that supported him period. No what ifs was his saying when people started in. He had a great high school carreer and the memories would last forever as would the friendships. Two years later he still has those memories and friendships.

Very well said JagFan...

[toonman]

You know, maybe Dodge walked in to the perfect situation. He had some incredibly talented classes even those there are some that say they weren't. Dodge sucked before he came to Southlake and Dodge has sucked since he has left Southlake so get off of this coaching crap. Go out and do it yourself if you are convinced a change needs to be made. If you do not have the cajones to do it then get off of this. Your team this year would not have won a state title regardless of Dodge being there or not. You were not as good as you thought.

You know I would agree with you if this situation was unique to Carroll, but Katy have also been a similar situation and done the same; where a seamless succession plan from Joseph to Joseph has not seen a drop in performance or State Championships for that matter - in what may be seen as a much tougher environment than Carroll. (Environment = Multi high schools in one city leading to a division of talent).

I never said Carroll would win state this season and if you read my posts you will notice that had reservations all season; often quoting a lack of consistency.

[maxtor]

nm

[maxtor]

I tried telling you all that you were not as good as you thought. A very fine season but maybe next year a little humble pie will shut some of your fans up. When I heard the score I did LOL because a lot of your fans were convinced you were going to win a state title and those that know the game and saw your team play knew otherwise.

LOL, dang Farmer, have you lost it man? You are in a dark downward spiral since SLCs loss.:)
You NEED the Dragons;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygdU9ufSFW4&feature=related

[tomlandryjrhigh]

Maybe "The Dodge" himself?

[rodjohns]

Winning a state Championship in any sport is a very difficult thing to do. Doing it in Football in Texas ranks up there at the top of the most difficult. Why do you guys in Southlake think that you made mistakes or ran out of time or whatever? You were beat by a better team plain and simple.

Last year was last year, this year is this year and next year brings hope...congrats on a good run!

[drgnbkr]

nm

;):p

[farmerfan]

LOL, dang Farmer, have you lost it man? You are in a dark downward spiral since SLCs loss.:)
You NEED the Dragons;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygdU9ufSFW4&feature=related

I need Vodka. I hate these blue laws :Censor:

[farmerfan]

You know I would agree with you if this situation was unique to Carroll, but Katy have also been a similar situation and done the same; where a seamless succession plan from Joseph to Joseph has not seen a drop in performance or State Championships for that matter - in what may be seen as a much tougher environment than Carroll. (Environment = Multi high schools in one city leading to a division of talent).

I never said Carroll would win state this season and if you read my posts you will notice that had reservations all season; often quoting a lack of consistency.

So Toon, can you please explainto me why Dodge was not successful at Cameron Yoe or Newman Smith or Fossil Ridge?
Can you also tell me exactly what you would have done to adjust to Boiwe on Friday night. Thanks

[toonman]

So Toon, can you please explainto me why Dodge was not successful at Cameron Yoe or Newman Smith or Fossil Ridge?
Can you also tell me exactly what you would have done to adjust to Boiwe on Friday night. Thanks

Only if you can tell me where Wasson has been successfull. I think the relevant question is why Wasson did not make any ajustments and do not just take my word for this - may I refer you all to a post by KT2000 in the “Congrats to Arlington Bowie!” thread; where KT2000 states and I quote: “Carroll didn't really have a Plan B for the second half”. These are not my words in a post. This is a quote from who we all acknowledge as the one authoritative sources of high school football game analysis – where were the Dragon Coaching adjustments to overcome the points deficit.

[farmerfan]

Only if you can tell me where Wasson has been successfull. I think the relevant question is why Wasson did not make any ajustments and do not just take my word for this - may I refer you all to a post by KT2000 in the “Congrats to Arlington Bowie!” thread; where KT2000 states and I quote: “Carroll didn't really have a Plan B for the second half”. These are not my words in a post. This is a quote from who we all acknowledge as the one authoritative sources of high school football game analysis – where were the Dragon Coaching adjustments to overcome the points deficit.

Dont answer a question with a question. You are so adament on running down Hal that you do njot realize that Dodge himself was mediocre at best before coming to Carroll and falling into a situation where they were one of the most talented teams in the entire country for 5-6 years. If Dodge was the wonder you are making him out to be then Newman Smith would have been more succesful than they were under him and the same with Ridge and Cameron Yoe.
As for the lack of adjustments, instead of being critical of Wasson and calling him out, why dont you tell us what you would ahve done. Exactly what adjustments would you have made? Tell us please

[BigFanSLC]

If any changes need to be made on the coaching staff i think its on the defensive side. there was so much talent of the dragon defense this year but that defense gave up so many yards rushing a game it was rediculous. the DC didn't make good adjustments when he needed to.

Wasson should not even be in conversation to be fired or let go.... he is the coach of SLC and should be right now.

[toonman]

Dont answer a question with a question. You are so adament on running down Hal that you do njot realize that Dodge himself was mediocre at best before coming to Carroll and falling into a situation where they were one of the most talented teams in the entire country for 5-6 years. If Dodge was the wonder you are making him out to be then Newman Smith would have been more succesful than they were under him and the same with Ridge and Cameron Yoe.
As for the lack of adjustments, instead of being critical of Wasson and calling him out, why dont you tell us what you would ahve done. Exactly what adjustments would you have made? Tell us please

I do not have to. I am not paid to make the coaching decisions. Send me a check for $100,000 then I will give you all the adjustments you want. Also you did not answer my question; please share with me the schools and years where Wasson has won a State Championship as a Head Coach.

[farmerfan]

I do not have to. I am not paid to make the coaching decisions. Send me a check for $100,000 then I will give you all the adjustments you want. Also you did not answer my question; please share with me the schools and years where Wasson has won a State Championship as a Head Coach.

If you dont have to because you are not paid to do so then Shut the F up about what is going on. You are not paid to be critical either so you are a hypocrite.
As for Wasson, once again, you answered my original question with a question, if yo uwant me to answer yours then answer mine. I mean your heor is probably getting ready to be fired at UNT because he could not amount more than 6 wins in 3 years. Looks like it is Cameron Yoe, Newman Smith and Fossil Ridge all over again. So much for the miracle worker

[SLCbacker]

Thanks FF. I think I like you better when you are drunk. :rolleyes:

I tried telling you all that you were not as good as you thought. A very fine season but maybe next year a little humble pie will shut some of your fans up. When I heard the score I did LOL because a lot of your fans were convinced you were going to win a state title and those that know the game and saw your team play knew otherwise.

[RedRage00]

Farmer just tells it like it is....it's just that you all wear your green colored glasses and don't wanna believe what he says. Farmer knows his sh*t when it comes to football. :notworthy

[farmerfan]

Thanks FF. I think I like you better when you are drunk. :rolleyes:

I like it better when I am drunk too. Makes life a lot more interesting and fun:rolleyes:
But tell me again where I was wrong and you all were right?

[yankee]

i could see this generating some good discussion, but i have a feeling this is going to turn into a giant pissing contest.

:rolleyes:

[farmerfan]

Farmer just tells it like it is....it's just that you all wear your green colored glasses and don't wanna believe what he says. Farmer knows his sh*t when it comes to football. :notworthy

Indeed sir:D

[The Observer]

And these extremely talented kids were running an offense that most DC's still hadn't gotten a handle on how to stop...

When the stars, the moon and the planets align, you have to take advantage of it and Dodge did...

I think this is a great and often underlooked point. You really had the perfect storm.

[The Observer]

We will never know and I could say yes the Dragons would have won 7 of 8 titles at the points with Dodge as coach and you will say no. All we have is a differing point of view. But I am certain that the Dragons would won some of the 7 games the Dragons have lost under Wasson's watch. Miami Northwest and Abilene in 2007 for a start; but again we will never know.

We would also never know what would happen if we would have switched coaches on Friday night, but you were ready to go there. I would love to here just a few specifics though on why Dodge would have won against Miami NW or Abilene...I guess the kid only fumbles if someone other than Dodge is the coach? That is kind of the luck factor I was talking about. Sometimes you get the breaks (and it takes breaks at some point to win the whole thing), and sometimes you don't. The fact people still bring up that game is beyond crazy. The end of the Allen game could be called into question a hundred times more than the end of the Abilene game. It will forever be the greatest second guess of all time.

And the response where you couldn't bring up specifics unless mailed his check cracked me up. Why does the money come into it? You do realize SLC coaches aren't paid that great, right? Last time all the coaches salaries were released, SLC was about in the middle of the pack in the DFW. Seems like people would be jumping at the chance to take a pay cut and deal with unrealistic expectations year in and year out. Can't wait till you give us your list of replacements.

[toonman]

If you dont have to because you are not paid to do so then Shut the F up about what is going on. You are not paid to be critical either so you are a hypocrite.
As for Wasson, once again, you answered my original question with a question, if yo uwant me to answer yours then answer mine. I mean your heor is probably getting ready to be fired at UNT because he could not amount more than 6 wins in 3 years. Looks like it is Cameron Yoe, Newman Smith and Fossil Ridge all over again. So much for the miracle worker

As always you are correct and I will most definitely use your well thought out advice. I know I will always benefit from your infinite wisdom; which you always so willing to share with the uninformed masses here in Southlake, myself included.

[SLC]

I'm personally very curious as to who people would get as the coach of Carroll...Who they would have gotten if the choice had been theirs in 2007.

[farmerfan]

As always you are correct and I will most definitely use your well thought out advice. I know I will always benefit from your infinite wisdom; which you always so willing to share with the uninformed masses here in Southlake, myself included.

Those are the adjuments you would make?
Wow. It sure looks like that would ahve worked and guided Southlake to victory. Great knowledge of the game you got there toon.:notworthy

[Vols4Ever]

I'm personally very curious as to who people would get as the coach of Carroll...Who they would have gotten if the choice had been theirs in 2007.

I think Scott Peach would have fit right in at Carroll, given how the Dragon fan base absolutely LOVES HIM ;)

[twcpfan1]

I'm personally very curious as to who people would get as the coach of Carroll...Who they would have gotten if the choice had been theirs in 2007.

Pretty sure that before Wasson was hired, a lot of your fans on this board were hoping for the Denton Ryan coach, Joey Florence.

[33Blood]

I'm personally very curious as to who people would get as the coach of Carroll...Who they would have gotten if the choice had been theirs in 2007.

I thought then and still do that Joey Florence was the right fit.

[Vols4Ever]

Those are the adjuments you would make?
Wow. It sure looks like that would ahve worked and guided Southlake to victory. Great knowledge of the game you got there toon.:notworthy

Talk about pissing contests.....

I think Wasson, head to head, would outcoach any of us on this forum. We all think we know better, at least we fantasize about being right........... but most of the time, we would not have a clue...

[Vols4Ever]

At the time, I thought Wasson, Florence, Ron Schroeder, Sam Harrell, or David Fisher would have been good fits at Carroll.

Consider the mess Fisher created at SGP and the struggles Harrell is now facing at Ennis.....

It could be FAR FAR FAR worse at Carroll. Everyone needs to lighten up. The anti-Wasson crowd should disband, and measure Wasson against the VAST majority of coaches in this state whom he has outperformed since coming to Carroll.....

[SLC]

I think Scott Peach would have fit right in at Carroll, given how the Dragon fan base absolutely LOVES HIM ;)


Now that is funny right there.:notworthy

[The Observer]

I'm personally very curious as to who people would get as the coach of Carroll...Who they would have gotten if the choice had been theirs in 2007.

I would love to see this answer as well, SLC. Keep in mind that some of the pipe dreams like Florence and Harrell are NOT coming. Both would have taken major (real major in Harrell's case) pay cuts to come, and leave good programs to boot. So I would love to see a list of other options that the people that have NEVER given Hal a chance would have rather seen.

[SLC]

Pretty sure that before Wasson was hired, a lot of your fans on this board were hoping for the Denton Ryan coach, Joey Florence.



I thought then and still do that Joey Florence was the right fit.


Cool. Very good coach. I like him too.



Lets see.

'07- Coach Florence 6-5. Coach Wasson 11-2.

'08- Coach Florence 9-4. Coach Wasson 8-3.

'09- Coach Florence 12-1 (right now) Coach Wasson 11-2.


Totals-

Coach Florence 27-10 (so far)

Coach Wasson 30-7



Yep.


Who else?

[33Blood]

Cool. Very good coach. I like him too.



Lets see.

'07- Coach Florence 6-5. Coach Wasson 11-2.

'08- Coach Florence 9-4. Coach Wasson 8-3.

'09- Coach Florence 12-1 (right now) Coach Wasson 11-2.


Totals-

Coach Florence 27-10 (so far)

Coach Wasson 30-7



Yep.


Who else?

What does 1 have to do with the other? The split hurt Ryan and will do so again the next time around. SLC has not been split.

[33Blood]

. Keep in mind that some of the pipe dreams like Florence and Harrell are NOT coming.

Florence was not a pipe dream. No idea about anyone else, but I would doubt Harrell would have left Ennis.

[yankee]

What does 1 have to do with the other? The split hurt Ryan and will do so again the next time around. SLC has not been split.

the point is that florence would have probably had the same results that wasson has had, roughly, over the same time span. and then everybody would be on here calling for his head and telling us we should have hired a "dragon" because he knows the tradition and would have kept it going. :rolleyes:

[The Observer]

Florence was not a pipe dream. No idea about anyone else, but I would doubt Harrell would have left Ennis.

They both would be taking pay cuts to come and follow Dodge (not an optimal situation), so I would call those pipe dreams. Harrell is the highest paid coach in the greater DFW area. You have to remember SLC does not pay that well.

[SLC]

What does 1 have to do with the other? The split hurt Ryan and will do so again the next time around. SLC has not been split.


So you are implying Ryan had no talent in '07, '08 and '09?


Surley not, need I post the players they had go to college's?


Surely they were not at a disadvantage playing IN 4A with OTHER 4A teams. I mean, they weren't asked to play with 4A numbers in 5A, so it was not a disadvantage.


They were as talented as Carroll has been, also very good assistant coaches there as well...what else am I missing...oh, very good commuinty support..what else?


Point is, very doubtful Coach Florence would have had better success at Carroll than has Coach Wasson.

[33Blood]

So you are implying Ryan had no talent in '07, '08 and '09?

Do you think they got all the kids for Guyer just from Denton High? They had talent but it wasn't near as deep as it was prior to Guyer. And it is coming again, there will be a High School out east of Denton before long. That isn't a problem in Southlake.

[DrEdward]

Do you think they got all the kids for Guyer just from Denton High? They had talent but it wasn't near as deep as it was prior to Guyer. And it is coming again, there will be a High School out east of Denton before long. That isn't a problem in Southlake.

It's not an issue in Southlake, as the Carroll school district is simply not that large to require the creation of a second high school, much less any others beyond that. Such is not the case in Denton.

[SLC]

Do you think they got all the kids for Guyer just from Denton High? They had talent but it wasn't near as deep as it was prior to Guyer. And it is coming again, there will be a High School out east of Denton before long. That isn't a problem in Southlake.


When the split happened, it took from both existing schools, but that wasn't my point. Your point was, you were basically saying that Florences record was affected by losing kids, so he wasn't the great coach we all thought he was and thus his record would have been better only if he hadn't lost those kids?

My point was that he still had alot of talent there. I think he is a great coach, but I really doubt he would have had anymore success then Hal has had during the last 3 seasons at Carroll. Plus, Carroll isnt near the size of Denton, thus we dont have near the kids to create 2 high schools, let alone a 3rd and a 4th in the future.

[DrEdward]

Florence was not a pipe dream. No idea about anyone else, but I would doubt Harrell would have left Ennis.

But as I recall, Florence never applied for the Carroll head coaching position upon Dodge's departure, so evidently he was not sufficiently interested in leaving Ryan.

[CCCSportsFan]

But as I recall, Florence never applied for the Carroll head coaching position upon Dodge's departure, so evidently he was not sufficiently interested in leaving Ryan.

I remember it that way as well Doc... I know my short list was Coach Wasson, Coach Florence and Coach McGuire... At the end of the day, I think with either Florence or McGuire we would have been + or - maybe 2 wins...

Didn't Eugene Lockhart apply for the job?? To bad he didn't get it, because if he did, he probably wouldn't have had time to run that mortgage investment scam that probably going to land him in prison..

http://www.fanhouse.com/news/nfl/eugene-lockhart-arrested

[slcdragonfan]

Farmer just tells it like it is....it's just that you all wear your green colored glasses and don't wanna believe what he says. Farmer knows his sh*t when it comes to football. :notworthy

No, that's NOT what it's about, or he would be on the Cedar Hill thread or have started a thread about Cedar Hill basketball.

Yes, FF knows football, but sometimes he is wrong. As for you RR, you are a sycophant.

[dragonpants]

OK I am back and as I said in the Bowie thread, Congrats to the Vols on their convincing win. I was not at the game so I cannot comment until I see the DVD. This is always a very sad time of the year, even when we would state that the season is over and what to do now? A good weekend of college football this week and then 6 weeks to the bowl games. The NFL just does not have the excitement and passion that high school and college games do.
Congrats to the Sr's for giving us such and exciting year and I wish you all the best. I will post more on the Carroll thread after a few days to let all of this sink in for everyone.

[RedRage00]

No, that's NOT what it's about, or he would be on the Cedar Hill thread or have started a thread about Cedar Hill basketball.

Yes, FF knows football, but sometimes he is wrong. As for you RR, you are a sycophant.

It's all in good fun :)

[SLC93]

Look, you're all missing the point, as it applies to the coaching search following Dodge's departure. There is no way to accurately gauge the candidate pool because it was tainted by the fact most considered the position filled before the first interview. Wasson doing the color commentary on the television broadcast of the state game was the only evidence one required but there was plenty more. Of course issues like pay and expectation came into play but they weren't the primary reason a Florence type didn't apply. The primary reason was they knew they has little chance to get the job. That being the case, why would they subject themselves to having to return to a program they tried to leave? I've maintained since day one that Carroll did itself an injustice with the way the process was handled. If Wasson was truly the right candidate he would have navigated his way through a talented interview pool regardless. You have to exhaust all of your resources when searching out your leaders. We did not, in this case. That was my only issue with his hiring.

As for the public critique if Wasson, I'll stay away except for two things. First, the man is 30-7 with 2 district titles and 5 playoff wins. He accomplished this while dealing with more injury,defection and distraction than TD had in his 7 years combined. That has to count for something. Second, I'm more concerned about things most of cannot know the answers to. One example would be how our participation numbers for next year's senior class have dwindled by over a hundred players. That is far more than any equation for determining attrition would allow for. We basically have a team devoid of seniors. This is the kind of issue I'm concerned with as it speaks to the likelihood of continuing our tradition and success. There are a few other issues of this nature I've heard whisper of but will not mention.

Lastly, for SLC, I wouldn't claim that Florence doesn't have his faults. He certainly does. You're fooling yourself if you do not think he'd have at least the same, if not better, results than the last three years. At the very least we wouldn't have the head scratching sessions that have come on the offensive side of the ball several times, imo.

[dragonpants]

Look, you're all missing the point, as it applies to the coaching search following Dodge's departure. There is no way to accurately gauge the candidate pool because it was tainted by the fact most considered the position filled before the first interview. Wasson doing the color commentary on the television broadcast of the state game was the only evidence one required but there was plenty more. Of course issues like pay and expectation came into play but they weren't the primary reason a Florence type didn't apply. The primary reason was they knew they has little chance to get the job. That being the case, why would they subject themselves to having to return to a program they tried to leave? I've maintained since day one that Carroll did itself an injustice with the way the process was handled. If Wasson was truly the right candidate he would have navigated his way through a talented interview pool regardless. You have to exhaust all of your resources when searching out your leaders. We did not, in this case. That was my only issue with his hiring.

As for the public critique if Wasson, I'll stay away except for two things. First, the man is 30-7 with 2 district titles and 5 playoff wins. He accomplished this while dealing with more injury,defection and distraction than TD had in his 7 years combined. That has to count for something. Second, I'm more concerned about things most of cannot know the answers to. One example would be how our participation numbers for next year's senior class have dwindled by over a hundred players. That is far more than any equation for determining attrition would allow for. We basically have a team devoid of seniors. This is the kind of issue I'm concerned with as it speaks to the likelihood of continuing our tradition and success. There are a few other issues of this nature I've heard whisper of but will not mention.

Lastly, for SLC, I wouldn't claim that Florence doesn't have his faults. He certainly does. You're fooling yourself if you do not think he'd have at least the same, if not better, results than the last three years. At the very least we wouldn't have the head scratching sessions that have come on the offensive side of the ball several times, imo.

I agree that many people were agitated with the process more than the hiring of Hal back in '06. Since it was not done through a search firm the perception was that it was a done deal and because it was done in a public format kept some other highly qualified candidates away. Again not saying this is the case but that is the perception. I have had private conversations with a few people regarding the search and some of the details both before and after and they need to stay private.
I am extremely concerned about the low number of returning juniors, anyone care to share any insight?

[slcdragonfan]

It's all in good fun :)

OK. Guess I missed the fun part.

[twcpfan1]

Could Carroll have done it any other way? How many would apply for the job if they were still coaching somewhere else? As SLC93 said, it would be an awkward situation if they did not get the job and went back to the team they just tried to leave.

[E-Vol-ution]

WUT? I thought you guys had two killer JV teams.I agree that many people were agitated with the process more than the hiring of Hal back in '06. Since it was not done through a search firm the perception was that it was a done deal and because it was done in a public format kept some other highly qualified candidates away. Again not saying this is the case but that is the perception. I have had private conversations with a few people regarding the search and some of the details both before and after and they need to stay private.
I am extremely concerned about the low number of returning juniors, anyone care to share any insight?

[DrEdward]

I agree that many people were agitated with the process more than the hiring of Hal back in '06. Since it was not done through a search firm the perception was that it was a done deal and because it was done in a public format kept some other highly qualified candidates away. Again not saying this is the case but that is the perception. I have had private conversations with a few people regarding the search and some of the details both before and after and they need to stay private.
I am extremely concerned about the low number of returning juniors, anyone care to share any insight?

If we are going to continue this discussion, it should probably be done in the Carroll team thread rather than in this one concerning the Bowie game.

[slcdragonfan]

If we are going to continue this discussion, it should probably be done in the Carroll team thread rather than in this one concerning the Bowie game.

In fact, a lot of this should be done on a Carroll board, or at least PM.

[drgnbkr]

OK. Guess I missed the fun part.

:notworthy Good idea on the thread...You just never know when that fire hydrant or tree is gonna jump in front of your Escalade!:p

[SLC93]

WUT? I thought you guys had two killer JV teams.

He's talking about the current junior class, soon to be senior class.

[the_phoenix612]

nm

[Maxthedog]

In the coaching world, the stereotype about Southlake unrealistic expectations are out there and I know that many coaches think it is not worth it to put themsleves or their family through the abuse. Look it up, Kenny Perry makes a lot more per year than Hal and I bet he would have to consider long and hard to take a pay cut and face the abuse that he witnessed Hal take after the game Friday.

texascoach I am not a wasson fan, that is a known deal. If I had witnessed what was described here(wasson abuse) I would have attacked said fan and kicked his arse.
My main point of contention is with the above comment. 'unrealistic expectations'. They are not unrealistic, they are the drive of the community to win/excell, the players have it, the band has it, the students have it, and the parents have it.. Has been this way since the early 80's. The list of coaches that have SLC on their 'wish list' is far deeper than you realize. I have no doubt Coach Perry would seriously consider a HC opp with SLC.
If the fans and coaching staff at your school don't have 'expectations' of winning State championships, what is the point of playing. Same at Katy, Allen, Trinity, North Shore, Hightower, Westlake, Lufkin, OP and the list fgoes on. 1 dumbarse fan amonst thousands(SLC carries one of the largest crowds in the state) does not constitute degrading the entire bunch.

[slcdragonfan]

:notworthy Good idea on the thread...You just never know when that fire hydrant or tree is gonna jump in front of your Escalade!:p

yeah. :o
What was I thinking....

Never did get an answer to the TO for the FG, what was up there? Also, the TO for the 4th down stop.
Not trying to cause a problem, just wanting to know what was happening.

[drgnbkr]

yeah. :o
What was I thinking....

Never did get an answer to the TO for the FG, what was up there? Also, the TO for the 4th down stop.
Not trying to cause a problem, just wanting to know what was happening.

So many questions, so few answers...

[E-Vol-ution]

You don't want Coach Perry.....he eats pizza and destroys too many hats during games.:)
texascoach I am not a wasson fan, that is a known deal. If I had witnessed what was described here(wasson abuse) I would have attacked said fan and kicked his arse.
My main point of contention is with the above comment. 'unrealistic expectations'. They are not unrealistic, they are the drive of the community to win/excell, the players have it, the band has it, the students have it, and the parents have it.. Has been this way since the early 80's. The list of coaches that have SLC on their 'wish list' is far deeper than you realize. I have no doubt Coach Perry would seriously consider a HC opp with SLC.
If the fans and coaching staff at your school don't have 'expectations' of winning State championships, what is the point of playing. Same at Katy, Allen, Trinity, North Shore, Hightower, Westlake, Lufkin, OP and the list fgoes on. 1 dumbarse fan amonst thousands(SLC carries one of the largest crowds in the state) does not constitute degrading the entire bunch.

[SLC93]

You don't want Coach Perry.....he eats pizza and destroys too many hats during games.:)

:D

Perry? Who is this Perry? Nothing to see here. Move along.:D

[farmerfan]

No, that's NOT what it's about, or he would be on the Cedar Hill thread or have started a thread about Cedar Hill basketball.

Yes, FF knows football, but sometimes he is wrong. As for you RR, you are a sycophant.

No need to start a thread about CHill basketball. They never had any of their posters make the claim "What will farmer do when we win a state championship". I saw Carroll play more this year than I did Chill. I never thought Carroll was going to win a state championship. For thinking that I was deemed everything from being jealous to a hater to a drunk to many other things by the Carroll fans. The CHill fans not one time said that to me. Even on the thread when they were playing Marcus and I picked against them.

[SLC]

Lastly, for SLC, I wouldn't claim that Florence doesn't have his faults. He certainly does. You're fooling yourself if you do not think he'd have at least the same, if not better, results than the last three years. At the very least we wouldn't have the head scratching sessions that have come on the offensive side of the ball several times, imo.


Really. You think he might have a better record at Carroll. Hmm, I doubt that at all. Take into consideration the fact of the injury issue at Carroll and I'd say even at most.

Also, you dont follow the other classes the way I do accross the state. You have no idea of the head scratchers Ryan has had at times on both sides of the ball, let alone just offensively.

It's one thing to say it, another to know what your saying.

I believe Florence is an excellent coach..an excellent coach who is not without faults in the coaching department.


And my list can go on as well on others, some great ones in fact.

[slcdragonfan]

No need to start a thread about CHill basketball. They never had any of their posters make the claim "What will farmer do when we win a state championship". I saw Carroll play more this year than I did Chill. I never thought Carroll was going to win a state championship. For thinking that I was deemed everything from being jealous to a hater to a drunk to many other things by the Carroll fans. The CHill fans not one time said that to me. Even on the thread when they were playing Marcus and I picked against them.

Certainly, but it isn't about telling the "truth" now is it? You just said it was personal, correct? Or did I misread what you wrote there?

So, say what you need to say, and do what you need to do, but it shouldn't be under the guise of telling the truth or "telling it like it is", it is about getting even with SLC fanbase. Maybe there is truth in there, but your purpose is not to enlighten us, it is to spank us.

Originally Posted by RedRage00
Farmer just tells it like it is....it's just that you all wear your green colored glasses and don't wanna believe what he says. Farmer knows his sh*t when it comes to football.

[SLC93]

Really. You think he might have a better record at Carroll. Hmm, I doubt that at all. Take into consideration the fact of the injury issue at Carroll and I'd say even at most.

- True. I've given Wasson and his staff serious points for all they've dealt with in this category. That said we have to assume all of those injuries still occur with Florence, though the situations, plays and players would all be different.
Also, you dont follow the other classes the way I do accross the state. You have no idea of the head scratchers Ryan has had at times on both sides of the ball, let alone just offensively.

No, I certainly don't but I do keep up with all classes local to us. Florence can be a hot head and has killed himself from time to time. I readily admitted his faults and, like you, won't name them all. What I can tell you is his agrressive nature and go for the throat mentality is what these kids were accustomed to and, frankly, what has been missing from the current recipe.

It's one thing to say it, another to know what your saying.

- I feel good about what I've stated. I do not feel it to be the ramblings of an undereducated, by any stretch. I also feel I've been fair in my overall assesment.

I believe Florence is an excellent coach..an excellent coach who is not without faults in the coaching department.

- As do I. At the end of the day, he's got more skins and I prefer his style. That's all I really saying.


And my list can go on as well on others, some great ones in fact.

In green

[farmerfan]

Certainly, but it isn't about telling the "truth" now is it? You just said it was personal, correct? Or did I misread what you wrote there?

So, say what you need to say, and do what you need to do, but it shouldn't be under the guise of telling the truth or "telling it like it is", it is about getting even with SLC fanbase. Maybe there is truth in there, but your purpose is not to enlighten us, it is to spank us.

I did speak up earlier in the year about you guys not being as good as your posters thought you were. That is hte problem they had with me. The comment that RR even made on here iabout that was in light of what another Carroll poster said to me about liking me better when I am drunk. He said that because once again I had to rub salt in the wound as I brought up what I had been saying and felt for the better part of this year, that you guys were not good enough to win a state title.
Maybe my point is to spank you all, the thread I started was started because once again I saw no point in starting the one going into the Lewisville game. It was just a way for people to kick a dead dog while he was down. It was a pointless thread, it was started to well, spank us

[SLC]

True. I've given Wasson and his staff serious points for all they've dealt with in this category. That said we have to assume all of those injuries still occur with Florence, though the situations, plays and players would all be different.

I'd have to say, we should assume the injuries and situations are the same. While plays and players could be different. Pretty much just comes down to the plays, as I dont see any other players involved, as the best available players have played at Carroll throughout the years. Then it comes down to plays and Joey doesn't call his own, much like Hal didn't this year. Which btw, I thought Poe did a great job this season calling plays.


No, I certainly don't but I do keep up with all classes local to us. Florence can be a hot head and has killed himself from time to time. I readily admitted his faults and, like you, won't name them all. What I can tell you is his agrressive nature and go for the throat mentality is what these kids were accustomed to and, frankly, what has been missing from the current recipe.

Not just hot head situations, setting those aside, his teams have made goofy late player subs, causing timeouts to have to be burned, I've seen them be affected by player mistakes that supposedly dont come with teams coached by coaches with that stature of Florence....the list goes on and btw, isn't mutualy exclusive to Florence either, that list goes on as well, including a few of the states best all time coaches.


I feel good about what I've stated. I do not feel it to be the ramblings of an undereducated, by any stretch. I also feel I've been fair in my overall assesment.

The assesment is fine, mine was just comparing where both have been in equal years since Hal became coach with each given team. Overall, I feel pretty confident that if Joey had been here any of those 3 seasons, he wouldn't have done any better than Hal has and certainly wouldn't have won the state title, given the circumstances during those 3 seasons, which is what most are thinking would have occured if he had been here.



As do I. At the end of the day, he's got more skins and I prefer his style. That's all I really saying.

He does have more skins, though as has been stated by the Good Doctor, he wasn't a candidate here anyway. His style, while good enough to lead him to wins at the state level, have also led him to some beatdowns, odd calls in games..etc. You know, the type of stuff that if this was his 3rd year at Carroll, would have people on here questioning whether he was the right hire and why haven't we won the title..etc..etc.

I personally think he is a very good coach. I too like his coaching style and alot comes down to fits and I'm not sure if he fits at Carroll or Carroll fits him, not to mention the pay situation.


^^^.:)

[justafan50]

yeah. :o
What was I thinking....

Never did get an answer to the TO for the FG, what was up there? Also, the TO for the 4th down stop.
Not trying to cause a problem, just wanting to know what was happening.

A fan sitting next to me said the play clock was about to expire. I didn't personally see it myself.

[dragon]

In green

x100

[slcdragonfan]

A fan sitting next to me said the play clock was about to expire. I didn't personally see it myself.

Thanks, that is what I was looking for.

I am guessing the 4th down situation was regarding the defensive play call, but not sure.

[SLC93]

^^^.:)

I thought the Poe hire was the best move Wasson made when he began to assemble his staff.

[SLC]

I thought the Poe hire was the best move Wasson made when he began to assemble his staff.

Agreed. They have a pedigree in offensive football.

[dragon]

Shame on MISD and McKinney High if Poe wants that job and does not get it. What Reyes did(actually did not do) with the talent he had the last 2 years at McKinney is almost criminal.

[SLC]

Shame on MISD and McKinney High if Poe wants that job and does not get it. What Reyes did(actually did not do) with the talent he had the last 2 years at McKinney is almost criminal.



No doubt. There wouldn't be a better fit for the Lions, I think. Coach Poe would need to get a good defensive coordinator to bring with him. It has been the lack of defense that's kept McKinney from becoming a legit football team over the past several years.

[crunked9]

Can someone PM me the details of the situation after the game.

SLC is SLC because every team you play brings its A++ effort that week.

I think this team had it to win state.

Winning state is a very hard thing to do! (Something people from SLC seem to forget)

Let's put 2007,2008,2009 into perspective.....

How did Rapp do during the "dark years" of SLC..... 29-17-1.

Wasson is doing a good job!

[SLC]

Can someone PM me the details of the situation after the game.

SLC is SLC because every team you play brings its A++ effort that week.

I think this team had it to win state.

Winning state is a very hard thing to do! (Something people from SLC seem to forget)

Let's put 2007,2008,2009 into perspective.....

How did Rapp do during the "dark years" of SLC..... 29-17-1.

Wasson is doing a good job!


I agree on all counts Crunked. Well said.

[crunked9]

Also,

I have it from a high authority that Carroll High School will be shutting down the football program following this disastrous year of 11-2. Since clamming an undefeated district title, winning with humility, losing with grace, winning 2 playoff games in a very tough region, and Protecting the Tradition is no longer good enough for all the tax payers of the city.

Unless you have been part of a Senior Class that as Freshman watch their high school win it's 3rd state title in a row. You have no idea what expectations are. These kids gave great effort. Their coaches truly care about them an their futures.

From the moment I put on pads as a 7th grade at Carroll Middle School I knew that the coaches at SLC cared greatly for their players on a much deeper level than winning State Titles or even a single game.

In fact last night I was discussing my 9th grade football season with someone. In case you were wondering the 'A' team went 3-6-1 that year. And I can remember talking bad about the coaching/play calling of Coach Berg. Now that I have been removed from SLC for almost 7 years and out of competitive sports for almost two, I realize that I was doing nothing but hurting my team and myself. Coach Berg was an active member of my church and truly cared about all his players. If I ever see him again I will tell him I am sorry, for something he probably never knew I did.

The point is that if someone is a coach or a teacher at SLC there is a 99.9% chance that they truly care about the success of there players/students.

Winning and losing happens. SlC has been blessed with many great athletes over the years that have brought great success to the school. But we need not forget what Carroll High School and all its programs are about, preparing young people for the future.

I was lucky enough to be part of two state winning teams. Never once during the work outs, games, nothing, was winning state what was talked about. It was get out there work hard, do the right things, listen to your coaches, and get better at what your doing. The winning and losing took care of it self.

I personally think SLC football supporters have gotten away from that. If you want to support your Carroll Dragons do it in the right way. Help teach these kids hard work, honesty and how to Protect the Tradition.

Oh, and "Protect the Tradition" does not mean winning state every year.

[yankee]

Also,

I have it from a high authority that Carroll High School will be shutting down the football program following this disastrous year of 11-2. Since clamming an undefeated district title, winning with humility, losing with grace, winning 2 playoff games in a very tough region, and Protecting the Tradition is no longer good enough for all the tax payers of the city.

Unless you have been part of a Senior Class that as Freshman watch their high school win it's 3rd state title in a row. You have no idea what expectations are. These kids gave great effort. Their coaches truly care about them an their futures.

From the moment I put on pads as a 7th grade at Carroll Middle School I knew that the coaches at SLC cared greatly for their players on a much deeper level than winning State Titles or even a single game.

In fact last night I was discussing my 9th grade football season with someone. In case you were wondering the 'A' team went 3-6-1 that year. And I can remember talking bad about the coaching/play calling of Coach Berg. Now that I have been removed from SLC for almost 7 years and out of competitive sports for almost two, I realize that I was doing nothing but hurting my team and myself. Coach Berg was an active member of my church and truly cared about all his players. If I ever see him again I will tell him I am sorry, for something he probably never knew I did.

The point is that if someone is a coach or a teacher at SLC there is a 99.9% chance that they truly care about the success of there players/students.

Winning and losing happens. SlC has been blessed with many great athletes over the years that have brought great success to the school. But we need not forget what Carroll High School and all its programs are about, preparing young people for the future.

I was lucky enough to be part of two state winning teams. Never once during the work outs, games, nothing, was winning state what was talked about. It was get out there work hard, do the right things, listen to your coaches, and get better at what your doing. The winning and losing took care of it self.

I personally think SLC football supporters have gotten away from that. If you want to support your Carroll Dragons do it in the right way. Help teach these kids hard work, honesty and how to Protect the Tradition.

Oh, and "Protect the Tradition" does not mean winning state every year.

thanks for that post, that was great. :notworthy i needed to hear that.

[SLC]

Also,

I have it from a high authority that Carroll High School will be shutting down the football program following this disastrous year of 11-2. Since clamming an undefeated district title, winning with humility, losing with grace, winning 2 playoff games in a very tough region, and Protecting the Tradition is no longer good enough for all the tax payers of the city.

Unless you have been part of a Senior Class that as Freshman watch their high school win it's 3rd state title in a row. You have no idea what expectations are. These kids gave great effort. Their coaches truly care about them an their futures.

From the moment I put on pads as a 7th grade at Carroll Middle School I knew that the coaches at SLC cared greatly for their players on a much deeper level than winning State Titles or even a single game.

In fact last night I was discussing my 9th grade football season with someone. In case you were wondering the 'A' team went 3-6-1 that year. And I can remember talking bad about the coaching/play calling of Coach Berg. Now that I have been removed from SLC for almost 7 years and out of competitive sports for almost two, I realize that I was doing nothing but hurting my team and myself. Coach Berg was an active member of my church and truly cared about all his players. If I ever see him again I will tell him I am sorry, for something he probably never knew I did.

The point is that if someone is a coach or a teacher at SLC there is a 99.9% chance that they truly care about the success of there players/students.

Winning and losing happens. SlC has been blessed with many great athletes over the years that have brought great success to the school. But we need not forget what Carroll High School and all its programs are about, preparing young people for the future.

I was lucky enough to be part of two state winning teams. Never once during the work outs, games, nothing, was winning state what was talked about. It was get out there work hard, do the right things, listen to your coaches, and get better at what your doing. The winning and losing took care of it self.

I personally think SLC football supporters have gotten away from that. If you want to support your Carroll Dragons do it in the right way. Help teach these kids hard work, honesty and how to Protect the Tradition.

Oh, and "Protect the Tradition" does not mean winning state every year.



All this from a young man that played under Todd Dodge.

WOW. Well said!:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

[SLCbacker]

:notworthy Good idea on the thread...You just never know when that fire hydrant or tree is gonna jump in front of your Escalade!:p

I drive an Escalade and I am constantly dodging fire hydrants! :D

[dragon]

No doubt. There wouldn't be a better fit for the Lions, I think. Coach Poe would need to get a good defensive coordinator to bring with him. It has been the lack of defense that's kept McKinney from becoming a legit football team over the past several years.


Yep a DC is needed, hard to win some games when the other team scores 70 and yet you're really not out of the game due to your offense putting up 50. I think the McKinney QB would have put up numbers rivaling Scotty Young's given better coaching and a better scheme. They'll both do well in college, although I'd like to have Mr. Lee playing at Tech for personal reasons.

But back on track, Poe means football in McKinney. If he wants the job, I really hope he gets a real chance at it. Although, I heard there maybe some nepotism issue with respect to a board member precluding him having an opportunity? Either way, Coach Poe is a great guy and good man.

[Drag Goon]

yeah. :o
What was I thinking....

Never did get an answer to the TO for the FG, what was up there? Also, the TO for the 4th down stop.
Not trying to cause a problem, just wanting to know what was happening.


As someone already mentioned the play clock was winding down on the first field goal attempt. The radio people said he missed the 1st attempt also.

The TO on the 4th down stop was because our team was not ready for them to go for it. That was a pretty bad call on Perry's part to even try that with nothing to gain (not enough time to score) and everything to lose (would leave SL some time on the clock around Bowie's 30 yd line). He was lucky the TO was called because it looked like they were stopped short.

Was something wrong (injury?)with Foster the last couple of games? The first kickoff and field goal attempt against Allen were not to his normal standards and then the FG attempts against Bowie were no good.

[slcdragonfan]

As someone already mentioned the play clock was winding down on the first field goal attempt. The radio people said he missed the 1st attempt also.

The TO on the 4th down stop was because our team was not ready for them to go for it. That was a pretty bad call on Perry's part to even try that with nothing to gain (not enough time to score) and everything to lose (would leave SL some time on the clock around Bowie's 30 yd line). He was lucky the TO was called because it looked like they were stopped short.

Was something wrong (injury?)with Foster the last couple of games? The first kickoff and field goal attempt against Allen were not to his normal standards and then the FG attempts against Bowie were no good.

Thanks! That is what I was looking for.

[toonman]

Can someone PM me the details of the situation after the game.

SLC is SLC because every team you play brings its A++ effort that week.

I think this team had it to win state.

Winning state is a very hard thing to do! (Something people from SLC seem to forget)

Let's put 2007,2008,2009 into perspective.....

How did Rapp do during the "dark years" of SLC..... 29-17-1.

Wasson is doing a good job!

It seems that the popular view is that Carroll only had success in the Dodge Years, but in reality Carroll has been a premier program since the first 3A State Championship in 1988; following which Carroll only lost 5 games in 3A.

In eight 4A years, Carroll had Semi Final losses in 1998 and 2001 and a Quarter Final loss in 2000.

So I do not think it is unreasonable to have high expectations when there has been a history of a high level of achievement. Like it or not Carroll is one of those programs that; rightly or wrongly, realistically or unrealistically, has high expectations of a State Championship every year.

Carroll is in now in the second longest drought of not playing in a State Quarter Final Game since first winning State in 1998. I just think that 2 and out and 3 and out in play-offs are not acceptable standards for the Carroll Program and do not meet the expectations of most Dragon Fans. If you start lowering your standards and accept mediocrity then that is what you become - just an ordinary high school football program.

[SLCbacker]

It seems that the popular view is that Carroll only had success in the Dodge Years, but in reality Carroll has been a premier program since the first 3A State Championship in 1988; following which Carroll only lost 5 games in 3A.

In eight 4A years, Carroll had Semi Final losses in 1998 and 2001 and a Quarter Final loss in 2000.

So I do not think it is unreasonable to have high expectations when there has been a history of a high level of achievement. Like it or not Carroll is one of those programs that; rightly or wrongly, realistically or unrealistically, has high expectations of a State Championship every year.

Carroll is in now in the second longest drought of not playing in a State Quarter Final Game since first winning State in 1998. I just think that 2 and out and 3 and out in play-offs are not acceptable standards for the Carroll Program and do not meet the expectations of most Dragon Fans. If you start lowering your standards and accept mediocrity then that is what you become - just an ordinary high school football program.

Very well said Toon. After a noticeable decline...slow play calling, no "kill the will", etc... and following the Abilene "meltdown" , I posted the following...."when you put a mediocre coach in charge of a great program, your great program will become mediocre in time." I am not saying Hal is not a good family man....He is. I am not saying he is not a good coach at the right place....He is. I am saying he is not the right coach to keep this program at a high level, or take it to the next level.

[ThurlowT]

QUOTE FROM A GUY WHO PREDICTED CARROLL (EVEN WITH EIGHT RETURNING STARTERS ON OFFENSE--INCLUDING RILEY DODGE AND TRE NEWTON) HERE'S WHAT HE SAID...

The man standing on the sideline with the headset has to have confidence from everyone in the stadium. From the quarterback to the punter, the special teams coach to the trainer, the popcorn vendor to the pep squad sponsor.
Todd Dodge could have told the Southlake faithful they were playing the season with 10 players on the field and they would have bought it. Not only that, but he obviously saw things in a way that no one else (in high school OU would say) did. Wasson will probably call the same plays, but not in the exact same sequence and not in the exact same situation.
YOU BE THE JUDGE...

[drgnbkr]

QUOTE FROM A GUY WHO PREDICTED CARROLL (EVEN WITH EIGHT RETURNING STARTERS ON OFFENSE--INCLUDING RILEY DODGE AND TRE NEWTON) HERE'S WHAT HE SAID...

The man standing on the sideline with the headset has to have confidence from everyone in the stadium. From the quarterback to the punter, the special teams coach to the trainer, the popcorn vendor to the pep squad sponsor.
Todd Dodge could have told the Southlake faithful they were playing the season with 10 players on the field and they would have bought it. Not only that, but he obviously saw things in a way that no one else (in high school OU would say) did. Wasson will probably call the same plays, but not in the exact same sequence and not in the exact same situation.
YOU BE THE JUDGE...

Huh?

[SLC]

Huh?


He's referring to an article in '07 about why Carroll will not win the state title in 2007.


Trust me, I think he's looking stupid if RD doesn't go down, but whatever.

[drgnbkr]

He's referring to an article in '07 about why Carroll will not win the state title in 2007.


Trust me, I think he's looking stupid if RD doesn't go down, but whatever.

If RD stays upright history is changed...But it wasn't meant to be.

[The Observer]

It seems that the popular view is that Carroll only had success in the Dodge Years, but in reality Carroll has been a premier program since the first 3A State Championship in 1988; following which Carroll only lost 5 games in 3A.

In eight 4A years, Carroll had Semi Final losses in 1998 and 2001 and a Quarter Final loss in 2000.

So I do not think it is unreasonable to have high expectations when there has been a history of a high level of achievement. Like it or not Carroll is one of those programs that; rightly or wrongly, realistically or unrealistically, has high expectations of a State Championship every year.

Carroll is in now in the second longest drought of not playing in a State Quarter Final Game since first winning State in 1998. I just think that 2 and out and 3 and out in play-offs are not acceptable standards for the Carroll Program and do not meet the expectations of most Dragon Fans. If you start lowering your standards and accept mediocrity then that is what you become - just an ordinary high school football program.

My only argument to this would be that 3A and 4A are not 5A...the overall depth of good teams in those classes isn't close to 5A. A good team in 3A and 4A (especially 3A) will rarely have a big time game in the first few rounds. The standard you are judging by is completely void of any kind of data on what the matchup is. If you had lost to Trinity in '06 (or Allen this year for that matter), does that mean the season was a failure? No, you only didn't reach the "state quarters" because the another stae-quarter level team came up earlier than the 4th round. In 5A, especially in DFW, you are going to run into elite teams much earlier than in SLC's formulative years.

[SLC]

If RD stays upright history is changed...But it wasn't meant to be.


Agree, it is part of the game.

[The Observer]

[/B]

Very well said Toon. After a noticeable decline...slow play calling, no "kill the will", etc... and following the Abilene "meltdown" , I posted the following...."when you put a mediocre coach in charge of a great program, your great program will become mediocre in time." I am not saying Hal is not a good family man....He is. I am not saying he is not a good coach at the right place....He is. I am saying he is not the right coach to keep this program at a high level, or take it to the next level.

I've asked this of you and toonman both, but who would you replace him with? I'm really interested to hear this from either of you. I want to know what coach will line up to take a pay cut and deal with a community where 11-2 will get you run out of town. I'm sure the list would be long.

I understand keeping your expectations high, and I appluad that, but there is also a fine line between keeping your expectations high and having your expectations (which appears to be a state title EVERY year) be unrealistic. Now that the season is over can you not admit that the team lacked elite talent in certain areas that left them exposed against extremely athletic teams? I thought the world of SLC after the effort against Allen, but can ya'll not admit this isn't the talent level of 2004-2006? Where is the QB that will be in the discussion for the Heisman trophy down the road (or be the QB of the #2 team in the nation)? Where is the guy that will be scoring touchdowns for Texas? A lot of talent on this years team, no doubt, but nothing close to that. And THAT is the biggest factor (not coaching) in an exit 3 rounds deep in the playoffs.

[justafan50]

My only argument to this would be that 3A and 4A are not 5A...the overall depth of good teams in those classes isn't close to 5A. A good team in 3A and 4A (especially 3A) will rarely have a big time game in the first few rounds. The standard you are judging by is completely void of any kind of data on what the matchup is. If you had lost to Trinity in '06 (or Allen this year for that matter), does that mean the season was a failure? No, you only didn't reach the "state quarters" because the another stae-quarter level team came up earlier than the 4th round. In 5A, especially in DFW, you are going to run into elite teams much earlier than in SLC's formulative years.

Guess Vernon 92 game was meaningless while some say it was the greatest game of all time?

[The Observer]

Guess Vernon 92 game was meaningless while some say it was the greatest game of all time?

I was actually at the game and it was as great as everyone says it was. But one outlier prior to the 4th round does not change my opinion that the depth in the playoffs in 3A and 4A is considerably less than what you have to go through in 5A. Ask Denton Ryan, Grapevine, or any number of teams that have been elite in 4A (going deep multiple years) and have not scratched the surface of that (consistently, at least) once they get to 5A.

[Vols4Ever]

This thread is still this busy?

Good grief.... I just bumped it up again myself.

To the classy Carroll fans -- would love to have you come back up Bowie at UTA Maverick on Friday.

I am a fan of the Vols. But I am not a fan of the lack of dedicated Bowie fans. I live 20+ miles from the school, and 28 miles from the Maverick Stadium.... and I find a way to be at some games for my alma mater -- while still going to pathetic Midlothian games too.... I find the lack of community support in Southeast Arlington and Southwest Grand Prairie to be truly pathetic.l..... 4 impressive seasons in a row, and only a handful of people are there to see the Carroll game. I am ashamed of our peeps in the old hood.

Trust me - Abilene will bring the fans and the noise. The question will be will we bring anything to match it despite the game being in our back yard.... Bowie will need all the fans it can get.

[SLC]

I was actually at the game and it was as great as everyone says it was. But one outlier prior to the 4th round does not change my opinion that the depth in the playoffs in 3A and 4A is considerably less than what you have to go through in 5A. Ask Denton Ryan, Grapevine, or any number of teams that have been elite in 4A (going deep multiple years) and have not scratched the surface of that (consistently, at least) once they get to 5A.


Well actually, Vernon was one of the very good teams Carroll played during those 3A years, but it certainly wasn't limited to just that team and that team alone.

In '88 Carroll played Daingerfield, Wills Point, Decatur and Navasota in succesion and those were all very very good teams.

In '92 Carroll played Big Lake, Vernon, Alpine, Gainsville and Coldspring in succesion and those were also very very good teams.

And then in '93 Carroll played again Big Lake and then Vernon, Perryton, Tatum and Cuero and that again was a slate of very good teams.


You can honestly say that out of those 3 seasons, there were likely 3 teams that weren't real good, though good enough to make the playoffs.

Also in 1991 Carroll played Gladewater, Forney and Burnet who were all excellent teams as well. Same thing with Gilmer, Gladewater, Glen Rose and Vernon in 1990.


As far as quality of teams go and depth from top to bottom, I believe 3A and 4A are the most competitive classes in the state and I say that without hesitation. You bring up Ryan and Grapevine and their ability to not win titles on the 5A level, but fail to mention some 5A programs who have had more success in 5A, then they have in 4A and the same with 4A teams in relation to 3A. Each class is what you make it and being a lower number doesn't guaranteee success at that level. There are a great many programs in those classes that can attest to that.

In fact there are several years that many, including me, will say that the 4A champs and others throught the playoffs, may have been better then their 5A counterparts.

[ThurlowT]

If RD stays upright history is changed...But it wasn't meant to be.

You're right re: RD stays upriight .....But, I'll bet if you were coaching we'd have played one more game... No excuse...

[SLC]

You're right re: RD stays upriight .....But, I'll bet if you were coaching we'd have played one more game... No excuse...


Yep and if he stays upright, you and your silly article look, well..silly.

[SLC93]

My only argument to this would be that 3A and 4A are not 5A...the overall depth of good teams in those classes isn't close to 5A. A good team in 3A and 4A (especially 3A) will rarely have a big time game in the first few rounds. The standard you are judging by is completely void of any kind of data on what the matchup is. If you had lost to Trinity in '06 (or Allen this year for that matter), does that mean the season was a failure? No, you only didn't reach the "state quarters" because the another stae-quarter level team came up earlier than the 4th round. In 5A, especially in DFW, you are going to run into elite teams much earlier than in SLC's formulative years.

While I understand your premise, I take issue with the 3A analysis, as it applies to Carroll. To begin, we never played in a split class. Second, we only faced district champions and runners up during our time in 3A. Lastly, as it applies to being tested, in at least four of those seasons we had a district mate ranked in the state top 10 along with us. We had 2 regular season games during that run that pitted 1 v 2 in the state. So just making the playoffs and having a stellar record was a touch more difficult in those days.

[SLC93]

Well actually, Vernon was one of the very good teams Carroll played during those 3A years, but it certainly wasn't limited to just that team and that team alone.

In '88 Carroll played Daingerfield, Wills Point, Decatur and Navasota in succesion and those were all very very good teams.

In '92 Carroll played Big Lake, Vernon, Alpine, Gainsville and Coldspring in succesion and those were also very very good teams.

And then in '93 Carroll played again Big Lake and then Vernon, Perryton, Tatum and Cuero and that again was a slate of very good teams.


You can honestly say that out of those 3 seasons, there were likely 3 teams that weren't real good, though good enough to make the playoffs.

Also in 1991 Carroll played Gladewater, Forney and Burnet who were all excellent teams as well. Same thing with Gilmer, Gladewater, Glen Rose and Vernon in 1990.


As far as quality of teams go and depth from top to bottom, I believe 3A and 4A are the most competitive classes in the state and I say that without hesitation. You bring up Ryan and Grapevine and their ability to not win titles on the 5A level, but fail to mention some 5A programs who have had more success in 5A, then they have in 4A and the same with 4A teams in relation to 3A. Each class is what you make it and being a lower number doesn't guaranteee success at that level. There are a great many programs in those classes that can attest to that.

In fact there are several years that many, including me, will say that the 4A champs and others throught the playoffs, may have been better then their 5A counterparts.

Spot on. Also, folks need to remember this about the 3A run. Every year in the playoffs we had to go through at least 1 and sometimes 3 teams from east Texas. If anyone on here has ever preached about the 5A Carroll squads overcoming athletic deficiencies, multiply what you think by several and you'll then be where we were when facing Linden Kildare, Daingerfield, Gilmer and Gladewater. My junior year Gladewater had 4 DI guys on its defense, including a 300 lb behmoth in Stony Clark who would star at Texas. Navigating those east Texas waters back then, especially in the lower classes was hazardous at best.

[The Observer]

Well actually, Vernon was one of the very good teams Carroll played during those 3A years, but it certainly wasn't limited to just that team and that team alone.

In '88 Carroll played Daingerfield, Wills Point, Decatur and Navasota in succesion and those were all very very good teams.

In '92 Carroll played Big Lake, Vernon, Alpine, Gainsville and Coldspring in succesion and those were also very very good teams.

And then in '93 Carroll played again Big Lake and then Vernon, Perryton, Tatum and Cuero and that again was a slate of very good teams.


You can honestly say that out of those 3 seasons, there were likely 3 teams that weren't real good, though good enough to make the playoffs.

Also in 1991 Carroll played Gladewater, Forney and Burnet who were all excellent teams as well. Same thing with Gilmer, Gladewater, Glen Rose and Vernon in 1990.


As far as quality of teams go and depth from top to bottom, I believe 3A and 4A are the most competitive classes in the state and I say that without hesitation. You bring up Ryan and Grapevine and their ability to not win titles on the 5A level, but fail to mention some 5A programs who have had more success in 5A, then they have in 4A and the same with 4A teams in relation to 3A. Each class is what you make it and being a lower number doesn't guaranteee success at that level. There are a great many programs in those classes that can attest to that.

In fact there are several years that many, including me, will say that the 4A champs and others throught the playoffs, may have been better then their 5A counterparts.

I completely agree with the last part. I think Lake Travis has been the best team I've seen the last two years (I haven't seen them this year), regardless of class. My point was never that the top teams in 4A can't compete in 5A. They absolutely 100% can. I should have used another example besides Denton Ryan, since they are an elite 4A team. I think Fossil Ridge might illustrate my point better (and there have been several like them). They struggle every time they are bumped up to 5A, but when they slide down to 4A, they go a couple rounds deep in the playoffs. All I was saying was that I feel like the depth of real good teams (especially in DFW) is not there early in 3A and 4A, which was in response to toonman saying each season can be judged whether you make the state quarters or not, which I think is a terrible way to judge a season, that was my only point.

I will also concede to SLC93 that he is correct, that in the early 90's it was much harder and the playoffs were less watered down due to the one bracket. My point probably stands better today (at least to me) than it does historically. I can honestly say I didn't take that into effect and was not trying to lessen what you guys did in your time in 3A. That was not my intent, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. I guess my main point to toonman was that the way 5A districts have been set up the last few years, there have been monsters matchups two rounds deep, which if you look at the 4A brackets this year, most "big" games don't start taking place until now (I know there are exceptions - LT vs. Steele)...so to judge yourself historically based on how deep you go is not a fair judgement.

[SLC93]

I completely agree with the last part. I think Lake Travis has been the best team I've seen the last two years (I haven't seen them this year), regardless of class. My point was never that the top teams in 4A can't compete in 5A. They absolutely 100% can. I should have used another example besides Denton Ryan, since they are an elite 4A team. I think Fossil Ridge might illustrate my point better (and there have been several like them). They struggle every time they are bumped up to 5A, but when they slide down to 4A, they go a couple rounds deep in the playoffs. All I was saying was that I feel like the depth of real good teams (especially in DFW) is not there early in 3A and 4A, which was in response to toonman saying each season can be judged whether you make the state quarters or not, which I think is a terrible way to judge a season, that was my only point.

I will also concede to SLC93 that he is correct, that in the early 90's it was much harder and the playoffs were less watered down due to the one bracket. My point probably stands better today (at least to me) than it does historically. I can honestly say I didn't take that into effect and was not trying to lessen what you guys did in your time in 3A. That was not my intent, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. I guess my main point to toonman was that the way 5A districts have been set up the last few years, there have been monsters matchups two rounds deep, which if you look at the 4A brackets this year, most "big" games don't start taking place until now (I know there are exceptions - LT vs. Steele)...so to judge yourself historically based on how deep you go is not a fair judgement.

No worries. I'm just getting old and mark my territory more than I used to.:D Things have changed, for the worse, in my opinion. Much of what you say has some level of merit applied to today's model. Prior to split class and 4 teams qualifying per district, though, nearly every week was a dogfight in the playoffs. The point differential with those Carroll teams from 87-93 isn't reflective of that, I know. Remember that we were exceptional from a talent level and had Ledbetter and Lineweaver for very close to that entire run. If you think elite coaching makes a program at the 5A level, and it does, imagine what it does at the 3A level.

[The Observer]

No worries. I'm just getting old and mark my territory more than I used to.:D Things have changed, for the worse, in my opinion. Much of what you say has some level of merit applied to today's model. Prior to split class and 4 teams qualifying per district, though, nearly every week was a dogfight in the playoffs. The point differential with those Carroll teams from 87-93 isn't reflective of that, I know. Remember that we were exceptional from a talent level and had Ledbetter and Lineweaver for very close to that entire run. If you think elite coaching makes a program at the 5A level, and it does, imagine what it does at the 3A level.

I agree with this 100%...you get an elite coach in 3A (or lower) that stays there any length of time, and there is a good chance they will be very good year in and year out.

[ThurlowT]

Yep and IF he stays upright, you and your silly article look, well..silly.

You are 100% correct...
IF RD stays up he'd have taken care of business and the need to make a decision [in some circles known as coaching] probably wouldn't have been a factor during the last minute of the game.

As a side note, it wasn't "my" article. However, his thoughts seemed appropriate to make a point that you apparently missed --The article was about the Carroll program and coaching --- more specifically about Dodge and Wasson--AND the way the game ended, the article really wasn't, well...silly

[Mustangs1013]

As far as quality of teams go and depth from top to bottom, I believe 3A and 4A are the most competitive classes in the state and I say that without hesitation. You bring up Ryan and Grapevine and their ability to not win titles on the 5A level, but fail to mention some 5A programs who have had more success in 5A, then they have in 4A and the same with 4A teams in relation to 3A. Each class is what you make it and being a lower number doesn't guaranteee success at that level. There are a great many programs in those classes that can attest to that.

In fact there are several years that many, including me, will say that the 4A champs and others throught the playoffs, may have been better then their 5A counterparts.

SLC, I'd like to understand why you believe 4A is more competitive than 5A. I believe you are saying that from top to bottom the 4A teams are closer to each other (therefor more competitive with each other) than the teams in 5A.

I am not as knowledgable as others on the merits of the top 4A teams, but I believe that the top 4A schools are probably as good as the top 5A schools. If the top 10 5A schools played the top 10 4A schools, maybe 4A wins 6 or 7 games, who knows.

However, if you take the top 200 5A schools and had them play the top 200 4A schools, do you think the 4A schools would win more than 50%?

Or, just rank the playoff teams from 1 to N in 5A/4A and have them play each other, would the 4A teams win more than 50%?

I've not seen as much football as you, but from my observations of watching Sachse HS beat 4A playoff teams every year and yet can't win a game in their district makes me believe that at least one below average 5A team is better than several above average 4A teams.

So from my very limited data, I don't see how 4A is more competitive than 5A.

Thanks.

[crunked9]

Why did Carroll not win state in 2001?

[SLC93]

Why did Carroll not win state in 2001?

Terrible coaching ..... Had to be ... ;)


or


Ennis:D

[SLC]

SLC, I'd like to understand why you believe 4A is more competitive than 5A. I believe you are saying that from top to bottom the 4A teams are closer to each other (therefor more competitive with each other) than the teams in 5A.

I am not as knowledgable as others on the merits of the top 4A teams, but I believe that the top 4A schools are probably as good as the top 5A schools. If the top 10 5A schools played the top 10 4A schools, maybe 4A wins 6 or 7 games, who knows.

However, if you take the top 200 5A schools and had them play the top 200 4A schools, do you think the 4A schools would win more than 50%?

Or, just rank the playoff teams from 1 to N in 5A/4A and have them play each other, would the 4A teams win more than 50%?

I've not seen as much football as you, but from my observations of watching Sachse HS beat 4A playoff teams every year and yet can't win a game in their district makes me believe that at least one below average 5A team is better than several above average 4A teams.

So from my very limited data, I don't see how 4A is more competitive than 5A.

Thanks.



Well, let me help you. It's not a fair assesment to compare accross classes. The sheer numbers are almost always going to be in favor of the 5A schools, in relation to 4A or 3A and certainly below.

The comparison should be made within a class. Meaning, the bottom half of 5A couldn't compete real well with the top half of 5A. However, the bottom half of the 4A and 3A classes can compete very well with the top halfs of 4A and 3A, save for maybe the extreme bottom of 25 teams. 2A and 1A and under face the similar issue with 5A, in that bottom teams cant compete as well with the top half.


Anyway, the reference to 4A and 3A being competitive from top to botom is within its own class, and not across it.

[toonman]

Terrible coaching ..... Had to be ... ;)


or


Ennis:D


If you remember Carroll had the lead at half time, but Ennis came out in the second half firing on all cylinders; with great half time adjustments made by Coach Harrell.

[drgnbkr]

Why did Carroll not win state in 2001?

Injuries?

[SLC]

You are 100% correct...
IF RD stays up he'd have taken care of business and the need to make a decision [in some circles known as coaching] probably wouldn't have been a factor during the last minute of the game.

As a side note, it wasn't "my" article. However, his thoughts seemed appropriate to make a point that you apparently missed --The article was about the Carroll program and coaching --- more specifically about Dodge and Wasson--AND the way the game ended, the article really wasn't, well...silly


Oh no, surely you jest sir. So what you are telling me is a coach made a coaching mistake in a game? Say it isn't so!:eek:


News flash...they are made everyday, by 1st year coaches, 10 year coaches..title winning coaches and non title winning coaches. In fact, by all time greats in coaching...yep, it's true, I have seen with my own eyes, the greatest coach in Texas history makes some goofy mistakes in games. They happen, we are all human afterall. You think for a damn second that Lord Dodge didn't make mistakes? You've got another thing coming, sir!

[SLC]

Why did Carroll not win state in 2001?


Multitude of things...None the least of where better in game adjustments made by Coach Harrell. He "outcoached" Lord Dodge that day.

[Mustangs1013]

Well, let me help you. It's not a fair assesment to compare accross classes. The sheer numbers are almost always going to be in favor of the 5A schools, in relation to 4A or 3A and certainly below.

The comparison should be made within a class. Meaning, the bottom half of 5A couldn't compete real well with the top half of 5A. However, the bottom half of the 4A and 3A classes can compete very well with the top halfs of 4A and 3A, save for maybe the extreme bottom of 25 teams. 2A and 1A and under face the similar issue with 5A, in that bottom teams cant compete as well with the top half.


Anyway, the reference to 4A and 3A being competitive from top to botom is within its own class, and not across it.

I appreciate the response. And, I understand that it is within each classification. And, my only question is about 4A since I haven't seen a 3A game in over 10 years.

However, logically it does not make sense to me.
1. If we agree the top of 5A is equivalent to the top of 4A.
2. Bottom half of 4A can compete better with the top half of 4A.
3. Bottom half of 5A cannot compete as well with the top half of 5A.

To me that means the bottom half of 4A is better than the bottom half of 5A. My very limited exposure to 4A football tells me that 5A teams are better on average than 4A teams.

Thanks again.

[SLC93]

Multitude of things...None the least of where better in game adjustments made by Coach Harrell. He "outcoached" Lord Dodge that day.

Not possible ... couldn't happen ... blasphemy .. etc.... etc .... :D

Folks tend to forget there is another guy called head coach on the other sideline and he's usually purdy good, too. Coaching is the game within the game. Just like a player can break late or make a wrong read, a coach can make a wrong call or fail to substitute properly. We tend to forget that the coaches play against the same game clock as the players.

[SLC]

I appreciate the response. And, I understand that it is within each classification. And, my only question is about 4A since I haven't seen a 3A game in over 10 years.

However, logically it does not make sense to me.
1. If we agree the top of 5A is equivalent to the top of 4A.
2. Bottom half of 4A can compete better with the top half of 4A.
3. Bottom half of 5A cannot compete as well with the top half of 5A.

To me that means the bottom half of 4A is better than the bottom half of 5A. My very limited exposure to 4A football tells me that 5A teams are better on average than 4A teams.

Thanks again.



Sheer numbers sir. I covered that first and foremost. Compare each class to itself and not to another.

Logically, if you have 100 men in your Army and I have 50, you are going to be better.

But, logically, if you have only 60 and I have 50, then I will be more competitive with you.

[SLC93]

I appreciate the response. And, I understand that it is within each classification. And, my only question is about 4A since I haven't seen a 3A game in over 10 years.

However, logically it does not make sense to me.
1. If we agree the top of 5A is equivalent to the top of 4A.
2. Bottom half of 4A can compete better with the top half of 4A.
3. Bottom half of 5A cannot compete as well with the top half of 5A.

To me that means the bottom half of 4A is better than the bottom half of 5A. My very limited exposure to 4A football tells me that 5A teams are better on average than 4A teams.

Thanks again.

The disparity in enrollment, participation numbers and facilities between a bottom level 5A and top level 5A is far greater than the same situation at 4A's. The gap closes with every classification you step down to. Also remember, as you get to the lower classes the kids have far fewer options. There is no lacrosse or hockey or soccer for the kids to gravitate towards.

[slcdragonfan]

Injuries?

;)

[the_phoenix612]

The disparity in enrollment, participation numbers and facilities between a bottom level 5A and top level 5A is far greater than the same situation at 4A's. The gap closes with every classification you step down to. Also remember, as you get to the lower classes the kids have far fewer options. There is no lacrosse or hockey or soccer for the kids to gravitate towards.<object height="344" width="425">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/50OXJ5AT3ms&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

[drgnbkr]

;)

I thought that was always the reason...:p

[slcdragonfan]

I thought that was always the reason...:p

I'll have to go to my "CHECKLIST OF REASONS" list to see; I know it is in the top 2 or 3. If one is negated, we can just fall back to the next one on the list. Last one of course is "They just whupped ya' ".:D

I am now in the 12 step program (with inflation it is now a 24 step program, but at least it has been deregulated), and doing quite well.;)

How does W. feel with his last sideline experience? My daughter was leading the color guard before the game on flag movements, having a GREAT time making things up and the other girls having to imitate. :D She knew each game could be the last for her as a Senior, so she particularly enjoyed this one.

I am really proud of this class of kids. They have shown so much to be just kids in high school. If half the adults responded and worked as hard as these kids, what a better place this would be.

[SLC93]

<object height="344" width="425">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/50OXJ5AT3ms&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

If that wasn't so hilarious, I'd club you with a baby seal. All Time Grammar Police Nominee!:D

[the_phoenix612]

if that wasn't so hilarious, i'd club you with a baby seal. All time grammar police nominee!:d
:D:cool:

[drgnbkr]

I'll have to go to my "CHECKLIST OF REASONS" list to see; I know it is in the top 2 or 3. If one is negated, we can just fall back to the next one on the list. Last one of course is "They just whupped ya' ".:D

I am now in the 12 step program (with inflation it is now a 24 step program, but at least it has been deregulated), and doing quite well.;)

How does W. feel with his last sideline experience? My daughter was leading the color guard before the game on flag movements, having a GREAT time making things up and the other girls having to imitate. :D She knew each game could be the last for her as a Senior, so she particularly enjoyed this one.

I am really proud of this class of kids. They have shown so much to be just kids in high school. If half the adults responded and worked as hard as these kids, what a better place this would be.

As it has been for everyone, it was an abrupt end to a lot of fun. But, all good things end it seems and makes time for other endeavors like debate, which he has had to miss. The half time show was really becoming something special!

[slcdragonfan]

As it has been for everyone, it was an abrupt end to a lot of fun. But, all good things end it seems and makes time for other endeavors like debate, which he has had to miss. The half time show was really becoming something special!

TEAMme, the whole school had it. First time they had ever been on the field performing with the band, the drill team, crew, etc. Nice to see. This class has really come together as a family. Something special like that happens rearely.

[Mustangs1013]

Sheer numbers sir. I covered that first and foremost. Compare each class to itself and not to another.

Logically, if you have 100 men in your Army and I have 50, you are going to be better.

But, logically, if you have only 60 and I have 50, then I will be more competitive with you.

I don't think I'm communicating my point well enough. I do not deny the inherent advantages 5A schools have due to their extra resources. The point of contention for me is top to bottom the teams are closer (more competitive) in 4A than they are in 5A.

I may agree with this point if we said the best teams in 5A are better than the best teams in 4A. However, it seems to be the consensus that the best in 4A compete very well with the best in 5A.

Maybe this example can better illustrate my confusion. Let's take the top 100 teams from both 4A and 5A and assign a "power" rating of 1 to 200 (1 being the best and 200 being the worst).

The top 4A school gets 1 because (for this example) it is better than the best 5A school.

For the 4A classification to be more competitive top to bottom within that classification, the lowest power rating can not be 200.

For the 5A classification to be less competitive top to bottom, the lowest power rating must be 200.

We've already said that the best of 5A and the best of 4A are equivalent. So, when the best 4A team plays the 100th best 4A team it will be more competitive than when the best 5A team plays the 100th best 5A team.

That would imply that the 100th best 4A team is better than the 100th best 5A team.

To me the 100th best (or nth best, whatever number you want to use beyond the top 20 or so teams) 4A team does not seem better than the 100th best 5A team.

Thanks again.

[The Observer]

I don't think I'm communicating my point well enough. I do not deny the inherent advantages 5A schools have due to their extra resources. The point of contention for me is top to bottom the teams are closer (more competitive) in 4A than they are in 5A.

I may agree with this point if we said the best teams in 5A are better than the best teams in 4A. However, it seems to be the consensus that the best in 4A compete very well with the best in 5A.

Maybe this example can better illustrate my confusion. Let's take the top 100 teams from both 4A and 5A and assign a "power" rating of 1 to 200 (1 being the best and 200 being the worst).

The top 4A school gets 1 because (for this example) it is better than the best 5A school.

For the 4A classification to be more competitive top to bottom within that classification, the lowest power rating can not be 200.

For the 5A classification to be less competitive top to bottom, the lowest power rating must be 200.

We've already said that the best of 5A and the best of 4A are equivalent. So, when the best 4A team plays the 100th best 4A team it will be more competitive than when the best 5A team plays the 100th best 5A team.

That would imply that the 100th best 4A team is better than the 100th best 5A team.

To me the 100th best (or nth best, whatever number you want to use beyond the top 20 or so teams) 4A team does not seem better than the 100th best 5A team.

Thanks again.

I think I see what you are asking. My answer (though I think SLC might disagree with me) would be this. At the "elite" level (call it the top 10 4A teams), there would be little to no dropoff if they were in 5A (on a game to game basis). I think using your scenario above, the strength of 5A would start to show at about 25 or so. I do agree with SLC that it is a little of unfair argument, because you are talking about schools in 5A that in some cases could have 4 times as many kids as a 4A school. But if you were using it simply to show the depth of each class (which was my original point), it could be a solid argument. Which is why I think you see the scenario where you are talking about that a good, but not great, 4A team was still getting beat by 5A teams that weren't in the playoffs. My overall theory (Class A-5A) is that there are 10 or so schools that would probably have no dropoff (or could even win the whole thing) if they jumped up one class, and there are a large number of schools that would be considered "solid" where they are at, that would turn into very good teams if they dropped down a class. There are a LOT of examples of that happening (Fossil Ridge is one I talked about earlier). This is why you see so much angst over the enrollment numbers, because it can make a HUGE difference for teams that are on the fence between two classifications.

That might have just been more confusing, I don't know, but I do get what you are asking. We've gone way far away from the subject of the thread, but I do find it to be an interesting discussion.

[Mustangs1013]

I think I see what you are asking. My answer (though I think SLC might disagree with me) would be this. At the "elite" level (call it the top 10 4A teams), there would be little to no dropoff if they were in 5A (on a game to game basis). I think using your scenario above, the strength of 5A would start to show at about 25 or so. I do agree with SLC that it is a little of unfair argument, because you are talking about schools in 5A that in some cases could have 4 times as many kids as a 4A school. But if you were using it simply to show the depth of each class (which was my original point), it could be a solid argument. Which is why I think you see the scenario where you are talking about that a good, but not great, 4A team was still getting beat by 5A teams that weren't in the playoffs. My overall theory (Class A-5A) is that there are 10 or so schools that would probably have no dropoff (or could even win the whole thing) if they jumped up one class, and there are a large number of schools that would be considered "solid" where they are at, that would turn into very good teams if they dropped down a class. There are a LOT of examples of that happening (Fossil Ridge is one I talked about earlier). This is why you see so much angst over the enrollment numbers, because it can make a HUGE difference for teams that are on the fence between two classifications.

That might have just been more confusing, I don't know, but I do get what you are asking. We've gone way far away from the subject of the thread, but I do find it to be an interesting discussion.

I agree with your assessment. Thanks.

I also agree this is off topic, so I will drop it. At the beginning of the season this was discussed. However, it became heated so I did not ask my questions then.

[SLC]

I don't think I'm communicating my point well enough. I do not deny the inherent advantages 5A schools have due to their extra resources. The point of contention for me is top to bottom the teams are closer (more competitive) in 4A than they are in 5A.

I may agree with this point if we said the best teams in 5A are better than the best teams in 4A. However, it seems to be the consensus that the best in 4A compete very well with the best in 5A.

I dont believe it is a concensus at all. Just a few seasons in which the case for 4A champs can be made for being better then their 5A counterparts. And overall the top 25 teams in 4A playing the top 25 teams in 5A in any given year, would lose a great majority of the games. Now, take the top 5 in 4A and let them play a 5A schedule and I believe they would fair very well.

Maybe this example can better illustrate my confusion. Let's take the top 100 teams from both 4A and 5A and assign a "power" rating of 1 to 200 (1 being the best and 200 being the worst).

The top 4A school gets 1 because (for this example) it is better than the best 5A school.

For the 4A classification to be more competitive top to bottom within that classification, the lowest power rating can not be 200.

For the 5A classification to be less competitive top to bottom, the lowest power rating must be 200.

Again, you are comparing both to each other instead of to itself.


We've already said that the best of 5A and the best of 4A are equivalent.


"We" havent said that at all. I have said and continue to say the top teams in 4A could and can and in some cases do compete with the top 5A teams. And by top teams in 4A, I am refering to the literal "top" teams in 4A, not the top half of the classification.

So, when the best 4A team plays the 100th best 4A team it will be more competitive than when the best 5A team plays the 100th best 5A team.

Yes, because the numbers are so very close in 4A from top to bottom, but not in 5A from top to bottom. It has nothing to do with comparing 4A to 5A, as you want to do. Enrollments and participation numbers are closer in 4A and below, then they are in 5A, within each said classification.

That would imply that the 100th best 4A team is better than the 100th best 5A team.

That only implies that for you, because you want to compare 4A to 5A, rather then look at each as it's own intity, which it is.

To me the 100th best (or nth best, whatever number you want to use beyond the top 20 or so teams) 4A team does not seem better than the 100th best 5A team.

Yep, again, I am saying the 100th best team in 4A is closer to the top 10 teams in 4A, then the 100th best team in 5A being closer to the top 10 teams in 5A.

Thanks again.

You're welcome.


^^^.:)

[The Observer]

Yep, again, I am saying the 100th best team in 4A is closer to the top 10 teams in 4A, then the 100th best team in 5A being closer to the top 10 teams in 5A.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this point, SLC. If you look at the first two rounds of action in 4A, you see some pretty lopsided scores. I know there are lopsided scores in 5A too (some REAL big ones in Round 1 - Trinity/SLC), but I think as a whole, in Round 2 in 5A, you are getting some tough games, and in 4A it sometimes takes a few rounds before the real good teams are matching up. There are always outliers each year, but if you look at the Denton schools (two of what I would call "elite" 4A teams) this year in 4A D1, Ryan won 48-7, 38-13, and 61-21 and Guyer won 59-28, 42-21, and 57-34 to each reach the regional final. Now I know and acknowledge that is a real small sample size and it could be chalked up to a weak bracket, but I think on the whole teams tend to be able to advance a few rounds in the 4A playoffs before there first true test (at least in DFW, where I have way more knowledge than elsewhere, so it could be a Metroplex thing). In comparison, SLC and Trinity were hanging on for their lives in Round 2.

We could probably argue this forever, because its tough to prove either way, but I'm just going back to my original point that I feel like its harder to advance deep in the 5A bracket than it is the 4A one.

[the_phoenix612]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this point, SLC. If you look at the first two rounds of action in 4A, you see some pretty lopsided scores. I know there are lopsided scores in 5A too (some REAL big ones in Round 1 - Trinity/SLC), but I think as a whole, in Round 2 in 5A, you are getting some tough games, and in 4A it sometimes takes a few rounds before the real good teams are matching up. There are always outliers each year, but if you look at the Denton schools (two of what I would call "elite" 4A teams) this year in 4A D1, Ryan won 48-7, 38-13, and 61-21 and Guyer won 59-28, 42-21, and 57-34 to each reach the regional final. Now I know and acknowledge that is a real small sample size and it could be chalked up to a weak bracket, but I think on the whole teams tend to be able to advance a few rounds in the 4A playoffs before there first true test (at least in DFW, where I have way more knowledge than elsewhere, so it could be a Metroplex thing). In comparison, SLC and Trinity were hanging on for their lives in Round 2.

We could probably argue this forever, because its tough to prove either way, but I'm just going back to my original point that I feel like its harder to advance deep in the 5A bracket than it is the 4A one.
yeah, if you compare it to Region 2, but look at the rest of the state.

Katy? Valley teams? West Texas teams? DFW aside, 5A looks a lot like 4A

[justafan50]

I say just take the top two teams out of each district and let's play.

[SLC]

yeah, if you compare it to Region 2, but look at the rest of the state.

Katy? Valley teams? West Texas teams? DFW aside, 5A looks a lot like 4A


Exactly. Cant be undersold that he doesnt look at the entire state as a whole. I do, because it's what I do.


Well done sir.:)

[SLC]

I say just take the top two teams out of each district and let's play.


For each class?



You and I both!:notworthy

[SLC]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this point, SLC. If you look at the first two rounds of action in 4A, you see some pretty lopsided scores. I know there are lopsided scores in 5A too (some REAL big ones in Round 1 - Trinity/SLC), but I think as a whole, in Round 2 in 5A, you are getting some tough games, and in 4A it sometimes takes a few rounds before the real good teams are matching up. There are always outliers each year, but if you look at the Denton schools (two of what I would call "elite" 4A teams) this year in 4A D1, Ryan won 48-7, 38-13, and 61-21 and Guyer won 59-28, 42-21, and 57-34 to each reach the regional final. Now I know and acknowledge that is a real small sample size and it could be chalked up to a weak bracket, but I think on the whole teams tend to be able to advance a few rounds in the 4A playoffs before there first true test (at least in DFW, where I have way more knowledge than elsewhere, so it could be a Metroplex thing). In comparison, SLC and Trinity were hanging on for their lives in Round 2.

We could probably argue this forever, because its tough to prove either way, but I'm just going back to my original point that I feel like its harder to advance deep in the 5A bracket than it is the 4A one.


Yea we will have to agree to disagree....Very random samples and picking extreme cases can make arguements work ever which way you want them to, plus, it's imposible to figure in if injuries occur that cause an otherwise decent team to get blown out, turnovers...etc..you know, intangibles that may not come into play one week, but they do the next.

For example, these scores are from 5A games through 2 rounds of the playoffs...

50-8, 88-27, 42-10, 48-18, 55-7 ;), 38-0, 40-0, 42-7, 56-7, 44-7, 31-7, 31-7, 70-42, 43-17, 45-17, 41-17, 49-7, 45-7, 42-14.


Now, I can also pick some "elite" teams and follow their first few rounds..

Katy- 49-14, 45-7, 37-3....Abilene- 42-10, 45-7, 41-17.


Anyway, we've gotten so far off topic of why our coach sucks, I almost feel like he's not getting his just due by all this talk of 4A, 5A this and that.:)

[ThurlowT]

Oh no, surely you jest sir. So what you are telling me is a coach made a coaching mistake in a game? Say it isn't so!:eek:


News flash...they are made everyday, by 1st year coaches, 10 year coaches..title winning coaches and non title winning coaches. In fact, by all time greats in coaching...yep, it's true, I have seen with my own eyes, the greatest coach in Texas history makes some goofy mistakes in games. They happen, we are all human afterall. You think for a damn second that Lord Dodge didn't make mistakes? You've got another thing coming, sir!

Wow!.. If you've seen it, it's gotta be true...Not sure what Dodge did to you, but, thanks for setting me straight. We're done..

[the_phoenix612]

Wow!.. If you've seen it, it's gotta be true...Not sure what Dodge did to you, but, thanks for setting me straight. We're done..
Do your knees hurt?

[SLC]

Wow!.. If you've seen it, it's gotta be true...Not sure what Dodge did to you, but, thanks for setting me straight. We're done..


Not a thing sir. Coach Dodge didnt do a thing to me, nothing what so ever, infact, I happen to love the guy, believe he is a great coach..etc, but I also happen to believe that Hal is a good coach that cant get a fare shake because he is being compared to one of the greats...Now, what I am saying is Coach Dodge has made coaching mistakes, as have a great many of 5 yr coaches, 10 yr coaches and 30 yr coaches, including some legends in this state....You know what? It feakin happens!

[The Observer]

Yea we will have to agree to disagree....Very random samples and picking extreme cases can make arguements work ever which way you want them to, plus, it's imposible to figure in if injuries occur that cause an otherwise decent team to get blown out, turnovers...etc..you know, intangibles that may not come into play one week, but they do the next.

For example, these scores are from 5A games through 2 rounds of the playoffs...

50-8, 88-27, 42-10, 48-18, 55-7 ;), 38-0, 40-0, 42-7, 56-7, 44-7, 31-7, 31-7, 70-42, 43-17, 45-17, 41-17, 49-7, 45-7, 42-14.


Now, I can also pick some "elite" teams and follow their first few rounds..

Katy- 49-14, 45-7, 37-3....Abilene- 42-10, 45-7, 41-17.


Anyway, we've gotten so far off topic of why our coach sucks, I almost feel like he's not getting his just due by all this talk of 4A, 5A this and that.:)

You make a solid point. And yes, I said earlier I really just know Region 1 and 2. I realize you follow the entire state closer than I do, as well.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing toonman or SLCBacker's list of coaches they'd rather have. Sounds like there might be one or two guys with Southlake ties out on the street today.

[toonman]

......as have a great many of 5 yr coaches, 10 yr coaches and 30 yr coaches, including some legends in this state....You know what? It feakin happens!

Yes it does, but like all walks of life, some make more mistakes than others and that what separates great ones from good ones from the poor ones - in any job, profession or sport, etc, etc.

[dragon]

You make a solid point. And yes, I said earlier I really just know Region 1 and 2. I realize you follow the entire state closer than I do, as well.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing toonman or SLCBacker's list of coaches they'd rather have. Sounds like there might be one or two guys with Southlake ties out on the street today.


not either of the above, but share their views on alot of issues based on their postings.

My list

1. J. Florence
2. whoever Ledbetter says is the guy
3. GA Moore, but we'd have to move the practice field to North Denton county
4. D Allman, might have to bump up the coaching stipend a bit

short list, but my 2. pick is sufficient.

Bottom line we need a coach who wants to coach in a high expectation environment, that spans a 30 year period, and coaches to win, rather than coaching not to lose.

I like Hal, Coach Wilson and Holmes alot on a personal level, but the defense has not been up the same since Mendoza left. You can say injuries, etc, etc, but this year's group on defense had alot of talent, and didn't get it done. That is reflected more in coaching, schemes and personnel decisions than "talent."

Did losing a D1 corner hurt, yes. Were teams throwing to the other side before, yes. Williams came in and very good job replacing Kacie. The scheme hurt our coverage more than our players and that's been the situation going back to the Dodge era.

This was great group of kids who worked hard every day and did everything and more that was asked of them. This post is not meant in anyway to degrade what they achieved.

[CCCSportsFan]

You make a solid point. And yes, I said earlier I really just know Region 1 and 2. I realize you follow the entire state closer than I do, as well.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing toonman or SLCBacker's list of coaches they'd rather have. Sounds like there might be one or two guys with Southlake ties out on the street today.

scratch that, just say your post that the rumor isn't true...

[The Observer]

1. J. Florence
2. whoever Ledbetter says is the guy
3. GA Moore, but we'd have to move the practice field to North Denton county
4. D Allman, might have to bump up the coaching stipend a bit

.

Interesting list. I'm guessing your #1 would be the top choice for most that would want a coaching change. SLC had some good points earlier about his last 4 years up there, plus I don't think Florence will ever leave Denton, unless it is to be the AD there. By most accounts, he was not interested last time.

GA Moore - I think this one was sarcastic, I'd love to see the look on Southlake fans faces when y'all were in double tight with two backs or in the 11-man front defense they used to run.

Allman - Try bumping it by about $40k, not just a little bit. The only way they got him out of Permian was to pay him (and his assistants) loads more than most coaches in the state.

On #2 - what is Ledbetters offical capacity? And do you not think if he does still have any sway he didn't sign off on Hal?

I've said this before, but I think y'all underestimate the mix that low salary/unrealistic expectations would play on the potential field of candidates.

[The Observer]

You referring to the guys TD took up to Denton with him a few years back that rumor has it are now out?? Clayton George, the WR coach, coached with Hal on the 2002 state championship team. He left SLC for a HC job in Carrollton-Farmer Branch and then went over to HC at Haltom before heading to Denton.

Don't know as much about Coach Ford... He was on the offensive staff here before his trek north...

Looks like those guys that were rumored out yesterday (George and Ford were two of them) are in fact not out. The guy in the Denton paper ran with the story before he had confirmed it and it turned out to be not true. They said this afternoon Dodge and all assistants will be back.

Here are the links

Dodge allegedly lets assistants go - http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/breaking-news----unt-makes-cha.html (This post was edited later but earlier said George and Ford)

Dodge and Villarreal deny above story- http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/villarreal-dodge-say-no-decisi.html

And finally, today the announcement that Dodge and all assistants will be back - http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/dodge-and-the-staff-will-be-ba.html

So, in short, looks like George and Ford aren't back on the street.

[CCCSportsFan]

Looks like those guys that were rumored out yesterday (George and Ford were two of them) are in fact not out. The guy in the Denton paper ran with the story before he had confirmed it and it turned out to be not true. They said this afternoon Dodge and all assistants will be back.

Here are the links

Dodge allegedly lets assistants go - http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/breaking-news----unt-makes-cha.html (This post was edited later but earlier said George and Ford)

Dodge and Villarreal deny above story- http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/villarreal-dodge-say-no-decisi.html

And finally, today the announcement that Dodge and all assistants will be back - http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/archives/2009/12/dodge-and-the-staff-will-be-ba.html

So, in short, looks like George and Ford (who I think spent some time up in the Witchta Falls area after leaving Carroll) aren't back on the street.

Not a lot of love being shown about this decision on the GoMeanGreen.com forum :eek:

[THSBandDad]

Not a thing sir. Coach Dodge didnt do a thing to me, nothing what so ever, infact, I happen to love the guy, believe he is a great coach..etc, but I also happen to believe that Hal is a good coach that cant get a fare shake because he is being compared to one of the greats...Now, what I am saying is Coach Dodge has made coaching mistakes, as have a great many of 5 yr coaches, 10 yr coaches and 30 yr coaches, including some legends in this state....You know what? It feakin happens!

Even the best make mistakes. Anyone remember a certain pretty good coach deciding to run a fake punt that MAY have permitted SLC to win one of those three in a row championships? If it had worked, it would have been brilliant. Since it didn't, it falls to "mistake" status.

This thread has moved SOOO far from a Bowie/SLC discussion!! Needs to be over on the SLC team thread.

[E-Vol-ution]

The moderators can close it.......very glad that the experience our teams had playing together was as respectful as the discussion afterwards.
Some of these other posters aren't behaving with class in victory or defeat.:notworthy:notworthy:notworthyEven the best make mistakes. Anyone remember a certain pretty good coach deciding to run a fake punt that MAY have permitted SLC to win one of those three in a row championships? If it had worked, it would have been brilliant. Since it didn't, it falls to "mistake" status.

This thread has moved SOOO far from a Bowie/SLC discussion!! Needs to be over on the SLC team thread.

[SLC]

Not a lot of love being shown about this decision on the GoMeanGreen.com forum :eek:



Not alot at all. They've been restless on there since last week.

[dragon]

Interesting list. I'm guessing your #1 would be the top choice for most that would want a coaching change. SLC had some good points earlier about his last 4 years up there, plus I don't think Florence will ever leave Denton, unless it is to be the AD there. By most accounts, he was not interested last time. I wonder if there was interest or not, I don't have any first hand info, only second hand info that seemed to indicate no desire to follow Dodge, but who knows.

GA Moore - I think this one was sarcastic, I'd love to see the look on
Southlake fans faces when y'all were in double tight with two backs or in the 11-man front defense they used to run. Ha, that'd heat up a discussion forum wouldn't it, but I bet alot of $$ Moore would win with it.[COLOR="

Allman - Try bumping it by about $40k, not just a little bit. The only way they got him out of Permian was to pay him (and his assistants) loads more than most coaches in the state.

Darren is a great guy, the money would definitely have to be there. I'm still surprised he left Mojo. But he's in a better situation for his family and I think long term for his career. Certainly not doing too bad this year.

On #2 - what is Ledbetters offical capacity? NONE And do you not think if he does still have any sway he didn't sign off on Hal?

I've said this before, but I think y'all underestimate the mix that low salary/unrealistic expectations would play on the potential field of candidates.

I think any coach worth having would want to be in a situation like SLC, now Allen, Trinity, Katy etc. Programs with a track record of success at the highest level. IMHO, a big hurdle on the HS level is having the kids buy in and believe they can win a title. If that belief is there from grade school on, it's easier to continue.

The money issue is a problem, it was going to be a problem for Dodge, he took a look at Allen. However, for the right candidate at the right time, the money will be there.

[Vols4Ever]

Can someone close and lock this topic so that it does not lead to riots in the streets of Southlake? j/k

I'm an outsider.

But I support Coach Wasson.

Had I been 28 years old and a Carroll grad, I might have called for his head.

Go back in time to my posts about Anthony Criss when he was HC at Bowie. I wish I could go back and take some of the things I said back. But I couldn't. So 2 years ago, I had an opportunity to site with him at a game, and I apologized. I did not apologize for voicing concerns. But I apologized for being insensitive to the man and his family.

But, I can never take back what I said....

Be careful what you say about Hal. You may be looking right in his eyes one day, and have to explain yourself.

[DrEdward]

Even the best make mistakes. Anyone remember a certain pretty good coach deciding to run a fake punt that MAY have permitted SLC to win one of those three in a row championships? If it had worked, it would have been brilliant. Since it didn't, it falls to "mistake" status.

This thread has moved SOOO far from a Bowie/SLC discussion!! Needs to be over on the SLC team thread.

I tried that - didn't work. ;)

[mojotrain]

IMO Allmans greatest asset is the talent of putting together great staffs, organizing and selling. The heart of his O staff (Brandon Faircloth) left Odessa for P NG before Allmand bolted. The loss of Faircloth was a hit in the gas tank. So when Allman left ECISD would not allow his best remaining assets to stay at Permian,although they wanted to stay, even as assistants. So they too are now at Westlake. Allmans salary was anchored down by the Head coach in town and two Highschool principals. He could have won three state crowns in a row and still not made more than the coach across town or the two principals. He was salary capped, good, bad or indifferent. The money at Westlake although more, wasn't that great of a difference. He has a local tie to U T. that tie helped in his decision. U T, if he is successful at Westlake, will be his next move. Believe me it won't him a second to jump.

Remember this is just a opinion.

The rest: However you view Permians place in the near or the past pecking order of state powers. We now are guided by a legendary head coach who is capable sustaining what Allman was rebuilding but for some reason or another his help consists of a x head coach of a average Brownwood program and what was last year a junior high coach and several others who have very little experience. They may turn out to be great, they probably will. But please stick with us for a while, give us time to pull them through a learning curve, I mean, hell's bell's! this was Permian High School.

ECISD blows! This is also a opinion.

[farmerfan]

Interesting list. I'm guessing your #1 would be the top choice for most that would want a coaching change. SLC had some good points earlier about his last 4 years up there, plus I don't think Florence will ever leave Denton, unless it is to be the AD there. By most accounts, he was not interested last time.

GA Moore - I think this one was sarcastic, I'd love to see the look on Southlake fans faces when y'all were in double tight with two backs or in the 11-man front defense they used to run.

Allman - Try bumping it by about $40k, not just a little bit. The only way they got him out of Permian was to pay him (and his assistants) loads more than most coaches in the state.

On #2 - what is Ledbetters offical capacity? And do you not think if he does still have any sway he didn't sign off on Hal?

I've said this before, but I think y'all underestimate the mix that low salary/unrealistic expectations would play on the potential field of candidates.

I had to play against that "special" defense they would run. We called the 10, basically they would go man with their corners playing very tight and in your face and they walked up that safety having 9 guys play within 5 yards of the line my favorite thing about playing against the Celina defenses of old were their backers played closer to the LOS than most teams do, getting to that second level was were you could have success against them and in the 4 years I played against them we moved the football very well against them. when I played at Liberty we gashed that look a few times. Very tough to block against but we had some good success against it.

[crunked9]

not either of the above, but share their views on alot of issues based on their postings.

My list

1. J. Florence
2. whoever Ledbetter says is the guy
3. GA Moore, but we'd have to move the practice field to North Denton county
4. D Allman, might have to bump up the coaching stipend a bit

short list, but my 2. pick is sufficient.

Bottom line we need a coach who wants to coach in a high expectation environment, that spans a 30 year period, and coaches to win, rather than coaching not to lose.

I like Hal, Coach Wilson and Holmes alot on a personal level, but the defense has not been up the same since Mendoza left. You can say injuries, etc, etc, but this year's group on defense had alot of talent, and didn't get it done. That is reflected more in coaching, schemes and personnel decisions than "talent."

Did losing a D1 corner hurt, yes. Were teams throwing to the other side before, yes. Williams came in and very good job replacing Kacie. The scheme hurt our coverage more than our players and that's been the situation going back to the Dodge era.

This was great group of kids who worked hard every day and did everything and more that was asked of them. This post is not meant in anyway to degrade what they achieved.

Why??

I'm guessing that he was the one who picked Rapp. So his average would be .500 on picking top coaches.

Also, when he picked Dodge the decision was not exactly welcomed. Remember before Dodge got to SLC he had never had a winning season as as a head coach.

[toonman]

I think any coach worth having would want to be in a situation like SLC, now Allen, Trinity, Katy etc. Programs with a track record of success at the highest level. IMHO, a big hurdle on the HS level is having the kids buy in and believe they can win a title. If that belief is there from grade school on, it's easier to continue.

The money issue is a problem, it was going to be a problem for Dodge, he took a look at Allen. However, for the right candidate at the right time, the money will be there. The outside contributions to the SLC job add up the total compensation package as well.

If you pay peanuts all you get are monkeys.

[SLC93]

If you pay peanuts all you get are monkeys.

That's overpayin for a monkey! I can get bananas at Wally World all day long for .39/lb. If I'm paying peanuts I better get an elephant or at least a drunk guy from the bleachers!:D

[33Blood]

If you pay peanuts all you get are monkeys.

I can't remember which way it was but in 2006 Dodge and Florence were only $200 apart in salary one way or the other.

[dragonsdaddy]

I can't remember which way it was but in 2006 Dodge and Florence were only $200 apart in salary one way or the other.

dodge had several extra curricular enterprises that supplemented his income. can't say for sure about joflo. he could do the same at slc, no doubt, were he here.

[CCCSportsFan]

dodge had several extra curricular enterprises that supplemented his income. can't say for sure about joflo. he could do the same at slc, no doubt, were he here.

Very lucrative ones too!! I contributed to several of them during his tenure and it amazed me the numbers he drew for his camps. Players from all over the state attended the QB-WR camp and you still see kids wearing those shirts today around Southlake.

[33Blood]

Very lucrative ones too!! I contributed to several of them during his tenure and it amazed me the numbers he drew for his camps. Players from all over the state attended the QB-WR camp and you still see kids wearing those shirts today around Southlake.

I did the first 2 years at UNT and the turnout was pretty good up there also.

[E-Vol-ution]

lol.....getting $200.00 less at Southlake is a no-brainer. Having success there is money in the bank.
I can't remember which way it was but in 2006 Dodge and Florence were only $200 apart in salary one way or the other.

[dragon]

Why??

I'm guessing that he was the one who picked Rapp. So his average would be .500 on picking top coaches.

Also, when he picked Dodge the decision was not exactly welcomed. Remember before Dodge got to SLC he had never had a winning season as as a head coach.



I don't care about the popular opinion when picking a coach, how does that relate to Dodge's success? Ledbetter has explained his rationale for selecting Dodge many times, seemed to work out rather well.

Second, before posting about Ledbetter selecting only 2 HS coaches, you might do a bit of research and see how many coaches his firm has been involved with placing, it's a few more than 2.