Other than the obvious, something is just not right with the Fort Hood deal.

[GoOwls]

You know, I want to be delicate here because I don't want to be misunderstood.

I have two sons in the military and come from a family with my father and uncle who were in WWII, and both grandfathers who were in the trenches and firing artillery in WWI, so my perception of military stuff is pretty keen, or at least I'd like to think so.

But something is not right about this deal.....something is not being told, I think.

First, this guy is a psychiatrist first and foremost....he hated having to just go shoot at the range and had no battle experience...he despised the "military" part of being in the military.

Second, most of the people shot were battle trained veterans and many had been on duty in Iraq or Afghanistan...they were not a bunch of pushovers.

I find it almost impossible to fathom a guy gaining entrance to such a facility, opening up with a semi-automatic handgun and a revolver.....with a maximum of about 23 shots without reloading..... and being able to shoot over 100 rounds and hit 44 people and not be subdued by a rush of soldiers...for me, it almost stretches the limits of believability to a historic level.

These people would not be the type of people, like the civilians in Killeen in 1991, that would just sit there and be executed...these people would have fought back...instinctively....I would think.

By description, this guy was more Barney Fife than Rambo, in the ability to pull this off by himself to the extent that he did.

Please discuss and tell me where I'm wrong, or right, or both.

[rwilleby]

A reasonable comment... I too wonder how one could shoot so many in so little time... Proximity... Close quarters... We'll hear more...

[dada]

Only MP's walk around a base with live rounds. Ft. Hood is a big place...by the time they got the call, got someone to open the armory, and get to him, he could have did what he did. It's just like walking to any other "Workplace" but every one is wearing the same uniform.

I can only imagine......being on base....I KNOW that's the last thing going through your mind.

[Favpack]

I think 90% of the damage was done up close in the first fiew seconds - if you watch the reinactments. The reloading part did get me - but I also understand there was so much chaos it's hard to fathom.

Plus - how would you know outside which "bad guy in uniform" was doing this?

The female cop hero was fortunately just a few hundred yards a way and got a description and location via radio.

[Firebird]

You know, I want to be delicate here because I don't want to be misunderstood.

I have two sons in the military and come from a family with my father and uncle who were in WWII, and both grandfathers who were in the trenches and firing artillery in WWI, so my perception of military stuff is pretty keen, or at least I'd like to think so.

But something is not right about this deal.....something is not being told, I think.

First, this guy is a psychiatrist first and foremost....he hated having to just go shoot at the range and had no battle experience...he despised the "military" part of being in the military.

Second, most of the people shot were battle trained veterans and many had been on duty in Iraq or Afghanistan...they were not a bunch of pushovers.

I find it almost impossible to fathom a guy gaining entrance to such a facility, opening up with a semi-automatic handgun and a revolver.....with a maximum of about 23 shots without reloading..... and being able to shoot over 100 rounds and hit 44 people and not be subdued by a rush of soldiers...for me, it almost stretches the limits of believability to a historic level.

These people would not be the type of people, like the civilians in Killeen in 1991, that would just sit there and be executed...these people would have fought back...instinctively....I would think.

By description, this guy was more Barney Fife than Rambo, in the ability to pull this off by himself to the extent that he did.

Please discuss and tell me where I'm wrong, or right, or both.

Take this in the right way, but I think you are wrong because it happened. There's no cover up or conspiracy, that's what happened. We should probably question our assumptions on how we/other people would behave in a situation like that. We'd all like to think that we would bum rush someone that opened fire in a public place. In actuality, we'd probably let instinct take over and seek cover. I'm not willing to past judgment on anyone there or question what happened.

I agree with dada. The soldiers there were going to "work". They didn't expect to end up on the battlefield. If bullets start flying in your workplace, you just get down and wait for the cavalry.

[cyfallsbooster2]

Shots can "clip" more than one person for wounds. Additionally, there would have been a few MP's and eventually cops who were firing back. In a packed area, friendly fire can happen which may account for some wounds. Seriously doubt any deaths from friendly fire unless a ricochet hits someone wrong.

[CoppellCowboy57]

You know, I want to be delicate here because I don't want to be misunderstood.

I have two sons in the military and come from a family with my father and uncle who were in WWII, and both grandfathers who were in the trenches and firing artillery in WWI, so my perception of military stuff is pretty keen, or at least I'd like to think so.

But something is not right about this deal.....something is not being told, I think.

First, this guy is a psychiatrist first and foremost....he hated having to just go shoot at the range and had no battle experience...he despised the "military" part of being in the military.

Second, most of the people shot were battle trained veterans and many had been on duty in Iraq or Afghanistan...they were not a bunch of pushovers.

I find it almost impossible to fathom a guy gaining entrance to such a facility, opening up with a semi-automatic handgun and a revolver.....with a maximum of about 23 shots without reloading..... and being able to shoot over 100 rounds and hit 44 people and not be subdued by a rush of soldiers...for me, it almost stretches the limits of believability to a historic level.

These people would not be the type of people, like the civilians in Killeen in 1991, that would just sit there and be executed...these people would have fought back...instinctively....I would think.

By description, this guy was more Barney Fife than Rambo, in the ability to pull this off by himself to the extent that he did.

Please discuss and tell me where I'm wrong, or right, or both.

First:

I thought they said he had two semi automatic handguns, from what I read.
if this is the case:

He could have had at least 42 rounds right off the bat. (2 clips of 20 + 2 in each chamber. Which would mean he had a total of 3 clips 1 for one gun, and 2 for the other.

A below avg service member should be able to change a clip in approx 3 seconds or less, (I had mine down to less the second just fyi).

if had a handgun and revolver:

thats 21 rounds (1 in the clip one in the camber) plus 6 which equals a total of 27 rounds he could have shot with out reloading.
which means he would have 4 extra clips to reload. once agian the avg service member can change a clip in less then 3 seconds.

So that make sense right that it is possible to do.

Next

Not all Vetrans from OIF, and OEF are "Combat Vetrans". And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the people who dont see combat on there deployment, cause I'm not going to lie my second tour in Iraq I didnt see any action at all opposed to my first tour. Alot of Service member are support for the ground combat element of our military. Alot of these people who where going through they're physicals at the time may not have ever experianced anything like that before even though they have done tours in Iraq and or Afghan.

So thats why he was not bum rushed.

Mindset also plays a huge role, in a War zone your in a 110% diffrent mind set then you are here. In combat your training bypasses your instinct and you do what your taught and what your told if your not in a leadership postion. I've noticed it here that when I here a gun shot, I still react but diffrently, I'm not as aggressive I'm very passive I'll duck for cover or stand behind a wall, unlike in Iraq when I would go and try to find that guy who just tried to put around in my head.

Is it possible that there was more then one man involved, yes! But do I think its a goverment cover up... No prob not.

I honestly belive it was one man.

[CoppellCowboy57]

A reasonable comment... I too wonder how one could shoot so many in so little time... Proximity... Close quarters... We'll hear more...

I doubt this is the hand gun he used. but

The 9MM Service pistol can fire 1,100 Round Per Minute at a cyclic rate of fire. I mean thats an insane amount with perfect magazine changes. but for a below avg solider it is possible to shoot off 100 rounds in one minute let alone 4 or 5 mins.

(yes I know I was using the term clip in the other one, that was to try and civilianize what I was talking about...i think i'm getting better at it :) )

[dragonsdaddy]

I doubt this is the hand gun he used. but

The 9MM Service pistol can fire 1,100 Round Per Minute at a cyclic rate of fire. I mean thats an insane amount with perfect magazine changes. but for a below avg solider it is possible to shoot off 100 rounds in one minute let alone 4 or 5 mins.

(yes I know I was using the term clip in the other one, that was to try and civilianize what I was talking about...i think i'm getting better at it :) )

your explanation makes sense to me. i am sure the ballistics guys will have every round catalouged soon enough.

[GoOwls]

I want to clarify something....I'm not saying that there was another shooter or that there is a direct coverup.....but more that possibly there is more to the man who did the shooting than we know about now.....some facts about him that will be found out later or exposed later.

My main point of this is that I just found it strange that in a room of trained warriors who are trained to exploit weaknesses in a battle situation, that the man who did the attacking had so many apparent weaknesses (not liking to fire guns, not liking the military lifestyle, not appearing to be an agressive personality, not trained in commando style situations, having to reload to sustain fire) that they were unable to exploit weaknesses in a "life-or-death" situation.

I just wonder if there will be info that comes out that shows why there were no apparent weaknesses to exploit on that day.....did he have an agenda....did he have other training....was he working with a terrorist organization and then supplying him training.......

......just wondering how it came down the way it did and figuring out why it doesn't add up for me.

[lonny23]

I think there is a lot that's not right with the deal, but we'll never know the truth. I love the military, but I'm also honest to say that what gets said isn't always like it happened or why it happened.

The first thing I said when I heard they were targeted shootings and it was a Major on Major was, "What did the dead guy do?"

I think there is more to this story than we'll ever hear.

[dragonsdaddy]

I think there is a lot that's not right with the deal, but we'll never know the truth. I love the military, but I'm also honest to say that what gets said isn't always like it happened or why it happened.

The first thing I said when I heard they were targeted shootings and it was a Major on Major was, "What did the dead guy do?"

I think there is more to this story than we'll ever hear.

or in military-speak, we'll be informed on a need to know basis.

[hoo2ers]

I love the military, but I'm also honest to say that what gets said isn't always like it happened or why it happened.



Spot on Lonny !!! The American Public only hears what the Military Brass or Government want told.

Prayers for those soldiers lost in this senseless act.

[GoOwls]

I think there is a lot that's not right with the deal, but we'll never know the truth. I love the military, but I'm also honest to say that what gets said isn't always like it happened or why it happened.

The first thing I said when I heard they were targeted shootings and it was a Major on Major was, "What did the dead guy do?"

I think there is more to this story than we'll ever hear.

or in military-speak, we'll be informed on a need to know basis.

Spot on Lonny !!! The American Public only hears what the Military Brass or Government want told.

Prayers for those soldiers lost in this senseless act.

My son, the one who just went back to Iraq, was in the first wave that went to Iraq in 2003....he was shipped up to the mountains east of Kirkuk along the Iranian border. They found terrorist camps there....actual terrorist camps....but the press and the Democrats have contended that there were no terrorists there...and the Bush administration and the military never strongly went against that notion....yet there are many young men in the mountain brigade of the 4th ID that know there were camps.....go figure.

[CoppellCowboy57]

My son, the one who just went back to Iraq, was in the first wave that went to Iraq in 2003....he was shipped up to the mountains east of Kirkuk along the Iranian border. They found terrorist camps there....actual terrorist camps....but the press and the Democrats have contended that there were no terrorists there...and the Bush administration and the military never strongly went against that notion....yet there are many young men in the mountain brigade of the 4th ID that know there were camps.....go figure.

how about the depleated urianum factory my unit raided in 2007 in N. Al Ambar provence. Or though we may not have found and WMD i think that should be enough to say they had the ablitiy to build them :)

[GoOwls]

how about the depleated urianum factory my unit raided in 2007 in N. Al Ambar provence. Or though we may not have found and WMD i think that should be enough to say they had the ablitiy to build them :)

There is plenty of this floating around the military, but no one can talk about it and the press refuses to report it.

I'm hearing today that the fort Hood shooter had been trying to contact higher-ups in Al Queida and may have had contact with them and the military knew of it and did nothing becasue they could get sued for being racist in targeting him. He also went to "church" with two of the 9-11 guys for a while....he was showing signs of adopting a radical muslim agenda.....the plot thickens.

[GoOwls]

Yep, this is starting to shape up as I predicted from the start.....we have only begun to scratch the surface, I fear.

[JagFan]

Yep, this is starting to shape up as I predicted from the start.....we have only begun to scratch the surface, I fear.

But that's alright. We cool ya know;)

[CoppellCowboy57]

Scary enough, if people like this have infultrated our military, think about what may happen next time...:(

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

There is plenty of this floating around the military, but no one can talk about it and the press refuses to report it.

I'm hearing today that the fort Hood shooter had been trying to contact higher-ups in Al Queida and may have had contact with them and the military knew of it and did nothing becasue they could get sued for being racist in targeting him. He also went to "church" with two of the 9-11 guys for a while....he was showing signs of adopting a radical muslim agenda.....the plot thickens.

Oh..damn! Uhh......YIKES!

[GoOwls]

Well.....it's getting even better now. His contacts and statements go way back. A guy who knew him from way back said on the radio yesterday that quite a while ago he gave a speach where he equated suicide bombers to Medal of Honor winners....:eek: There is more and more coming out.

Another thing that is slowly emerging is excuses for what he did...people wanting to take his free will act from him and make it a product of environment, etc.

I wonder what the over and under is for when our society makes him a sympathetic figure and excuses his actions as those of a mentally strained man? 6 months? 9 months? Less? More?

Do you find it ironic that a man who apparently despises everything American, except for pole dancers at nudie clubs near the base (where he is remembered as a great tipper...wonder how Allah is looking on that:eek:) is now hiding behind the rights and freedoms that he despises?

I wonder if killing him is the best thing?

Remember back in 2003 and since then when I predicted that Jihadists will eventually bring the terrorist war here? Well, now they have a blueprint....a trailblazer.....an American soldier who turned on his country....this is only the beginning and if we make a martyr out of him, it may just get worse faster.

Once those who are among us get mobilized, we are in for a mess indeed.

I've been walking point on this issue from the word go and I'm going to stay there...it has truly gotten serious now.

[JagFan]

Well.....it's getting even better now. His contacts and statements go way back. A guy who knew him from way back said on the radio yesterday that quite a while ago he gave a speach where he equated suicide bombers to Medal of Honor winners....:eek: There is more and more coming out.

Another thing that is slowly emerging is excuses for what he did...people wanting to take his free will act from him and make it a product of environment, etc.

I wonder what the over and under is for when our society makes him a sympathetic figure and excuses his actions as those of a mentally strained man? 6 months? 9 months? Less? More?
Do you find it ironic that a man who apparently despises everything American, except for pole dancers at nudie clubs near the base (where he is remembered as a great tipper...wonder how Allah is looking on that:eek:) is now hiding behind the rights and freedoms that he despises?

I wonder if killing him is the best thing?

Remember back in 2003 and since then when I predicted that Jihadists will eventually bring the terrorist war here? Well, now they have a blueprint....a trailblazer.....an American soldier who turned on his country....this is only the beginning and if we make a martyr out of him, it may just get worse faster.

Once those who are among us get mobilized, we are in for a mess indeed.

I've been walking point on this issue from the word go and I'm going to stay there...it has truly gotten serious now.

Already happening. He will be the victim and the fallen will be forgotten. Not by me but others.

[15Adragon]

This is very troubling when warning signs are ignored and diversity and fear of being labeled as intollerant trump common sense. There were clear warning signs that should not have been ignored. It is really sad that it cost folks who were serving their country all they had.

[dragonsdaddy]

This is very troubling when warning signs are ignored and diversity and fear of being labeled as intollerant trump common sense. There were clear warning signs that should not have been ignored. It is really sad that it cost folks who were serving their country all they had.

in naval aviation, a case of hiccoughs will ground you and ever being sick will keep you from even training for flight. i guess times have changed, and not for the better, i fear.