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View Full Version : Don't Punt..... Ever? (great idea)



Favpack
09-17-2009, 08:15 AM
This HS coach from Arkansas has probably got one of the most creative minds I've ever read about.

He never punts, or kicks off, or field punts, and he wins state?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1160256/index.htm

Thoughts?

twcpfan1
09-17-2009, 08:27 AM
This HS coach from Arkansas has probably got one of the most creative minds I've ever read about.

He never punts, or kicks off, or field punts, and he wins state?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1160256/index.htm

Thoughts?

Punting is for coaches who play to keep their jobs. Realistically, that's how most of us approach our jobs. Not punting from near your endzone, while ballsy and admirable, is a little extreme. But I can definitely buy the argument if it's between the 25 and midfield. What I'd be doing of course is concentrating more on improving my punting and kicking. It's very poor and under emphasized at the HS level. Need rugby players. Great punters fall out of trees in Rugby playing countries.

Favpack
09-17-2009, 08:29 AM
Punting is for coaches who play to keep their jobs. Realistically, that's how most of us approach our jobs. Not punting from near your endzone, while ballsy and admirable, is a little extreme. But I can definitely buy the argument if it's between the 25 and midfield. What I'd be doing of course is concentrating more on improving my punting and kicking. It's very poor and under emphasized at the HS level. Need rugby players. Great punters fall out of trees in Rugby playing countries.

Yes. I like some of his concepts, but not ever punting and kicking an onside kick almost every time seems extreme. I think his stats are a bit whacky. On side kicks are low probability and if you cover kicks well - which you should be able to do - you lose 30-35 yards of field position. Although I gather his onsides kicks are really the 25 yard high floater - I do like that kick.

33Blood
09-17-2009, 08:32 AM
I still believe punting and playing defense is the best way to get down the field.

twcpfan1
09-17-2009, 08:33 AM
Yes. I like some of his concepts, but not ever punting and kicking an onside kick almost every time seems extreme. I think his stats are a bit whacky. On side kicks are low probability and if you cover kicks well - which you should be able to do - you lose 30-35 yards of field position. Although I gather his onsides kicks are really the 25 yard high floater - I do like that kick.

I have a little bit of experience with onside kicks. It drives me crazy that most HS kids in this country still kick it soccer style. They'll get more height and distance and infinitely more time for the chase to get there if they toe the ball.

AbEagleFan
09-17-2009, 08:34 AM
This HS coach from Arkansas has probably got one of the most creative minds I've ever read about.

He never punts, or kicks off, or field punts, and he wins state?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1160256/index.htm

Thoughts?

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Seems his game plan is to keep his offense on the field and control the clock. According to his stats, after punting from deep within your own territory, the opposing team will score "x" percentage of the time yet will take longer to score than if they got the ball on your 10 yard line after 4 downs. I guess he figures if they're going to score, fine, just do it quickly so he can get the ball back and take over the clock.

Recall how Andre Agassi used to fall behind in a set and just concede it so he could start fresh on the next one.

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 08:39 AM
looks like his team doesnt play defense if it gives up a TD 77% of the time from the 40.

Favpack
09-17-2009, 08:42 AM
looks like his team doesnt play defense if it gives up a TD 77% of the time from the 40.

I don't know about his stats, but I do agree with his concept of.... if you know you're never going to punt - you treat your 4 downs differently - think about it - it would completely change how you think about 3rd and 5 or 3rd and 10.

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 09:14 AM
perhaps. but the game is called football, not passball. punting and field goals are very real part of the game. sounds like he's justifying not focusing on special teams. if it works for him, fine.

i'm fond of two sayings. dont be afraid to punt. don't act like you're too good for field goals.

bowiedawgs01
09-17-2009, 10:13 AM
His teams don't have to practice ST. They can concentrate on Offense and Defense. He gets the ball back 1/4 kickoffs. He doesn't fumble punts or get 10 yard penalties for blocks in the back. He can have all 11 guys try to block the punt, and likely force bad snaps.

It's very different, but I can see how it would work.

Favpack
09-17-2009, 10:15 AM
The main thing I thought of was how often in HS does a punt net like 25 yards of field position? More often than not it seems. Coming from Lufkin's experience this year, though, going for 2 regularly is just plain stupid.

dragonsdaddy
09-17-2009, 10:20 AM
any carroll fan who suffered thru the 04 special teams play would have gladly eschewed the punt. chase would have completed 66% of his passes which would have led to first downs at least half the time. we averaged 25 yds a punt, on good nights. several games were made close that would have remained bigger wins with that practice(lp and sv for sure). kick off coverage was spotty at best, as many were returned to mid field, so onside kicks would have been just as good. i prefer good special teams play, but in that instance it would have improved the dragons significantly to dismantle them.

one thing that year did was defy the truism that special teams play will get you beat when it is bad.

dragonsdaddy
09-17-2009, 10:22 AM
perhaps. but the game is called football, not passball. punting and field goals are very real part of the game. sounds like he's justifying not focusing on special teams. if it works for him, fine.

i'm fond of two sayings. dont be afraid to punt. don't act like you're too good for field goals.
maybe so, but in the nfl it is a 10 yd penalty to kick the ball on the field of play. i would have missed that one if questioned before hand.

Slim-Rob
09-17-2009, 10:28 AM
I like it.

I'm surprised no one on here is moaning about "running up the score" if all he does is 2pt conversions and onside kicks :laugh

If it gets you a W then why not try it out?

rodjohns
09-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Kleins kicking game is a weapon. We have one of the best punters and kickers in Texas and his leg has won a fair share of games. Not to mention the guy he replaced (Randy Bullock Starting Kicker at A&M) was one of the top Kickers in the Nation. Another top kicker from the Klein Area is Anthony Fera from St Pius who got a full ride to Penn State after he helped St Pius win 2 State Championships.

So if it works for him in Arkansas great. I think it is a little to out there for most coaches to try.

Pinion
09-17-2009, 10:38 AM
I like the idea.

I think I read something about this last season. but not sure.


Back in Louisiana, we used to play this 1A team (Haynesville) and I dont recall ever seeing them kick a field goal. Not ever. They went for 2 every single time they scored. I always liked that and still do. Yes, sometimes it can indeed come back to bite you in your arse, but still. I liked it. And that team did that for years (they still may, I dunno) and had much success. That and they were like a 1A version of Longview. God, those kids were fast.

Favpack
09-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Kleins kicking game is a weapon. We have one of the best punters and kickers in Texas and his leg has won a fair share of games. Not to mention the guy he replaced (Randy Bullock Starting Kicker at A&M) was one of the top Kickers in the Nation. Another top kicker from the Klein Area is Anthony Fera from St Pius who got a full ride to Penn State after he helped St Pius win 2 State Championships.

So if it works for him in Arkansas great. I think it is a little to out there for most coaches to try.

A great kicker is a wonderful thing, a mediocre or below kicker is probably a liability as dd noted. One other thing he fails to mention - there's 2 seconds left and you're on their 20 - you darn sure want a decent fg kicker - you don't want to chunk it up and hope for a miracle.

jgmike101
09-17-2009, 12:52 PM
Pulaski Academy is a consistantly loaded program in the state of Arkansas. The majority of the great Athletes in the Little Rock and North Little Rock Area transfer into the school. It is the school Darren McFadden attended. They can convert all of these 1st downs because they're usually just that much better than their opponent.

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 02:30 PM
maybe so, but in the nfl it is a 10 yd penalty to kick the ball on the field of play. i would have missed that one if questioned before hand.what are you talking about. there's no penalty for kicking the ball. perhaps you mean kicking it out of bounds on a kickoff? that's a penalty at all levels.

SLC
09-17-2009, 03:31 PM
His teams don't have to practice ST. They can concentrate on Offense and Defense. He gets the ball back 1/4 kickoffs. He doesn't fumble punts or get 10 yard penalties for blocks in the back. He can have all 11 guys try to block the punt, and likely force bad snaps.

It's very different, but I can see how it would work.


This is the first thing I thought of as well..It leaves alot of time for his team to practice his offense and defense.


And yes Pinion, this was a thread on here last season...I believe it was about this exact team as well.

Firebird
09-17-2009, 03:38 PM
This HS coach from Arkansas has probably got one of the most creative minds I've ever read about.

He never punts, or kicks off, or field punts, and he wins state?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1160256/index.htm

Thoughts?

It is brilliant and the numbers are on his side. Call him the high school football whiz kid. There have been plenty of studies that show you're better off going for it on 4th down almost every time.

dragonsdaddy
09-17-2009, 04:58 PM
what are you talking about. there's no penalty for kicking the ball. perhaps you mean kicking it out of bounds on a kickoff? that's a penalty at all levels.
you obviously missed the cowboy game where crayton got a 10 yd penalty for kicking a muffed punt oob. they cited the rule on tv.

trojanbacker
09-17-2009, 05:14 PM
Nothing new to this. Leach up at TTU has been going for it on fourth down since he arrived in Lubbock, sometimes it even works.

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 05:16 PM
Nothing new to this. Leach up at TTU has been going for it on fourth down since he arrived in Lubbock, sometimes it even works.
how many championships has he won?

oh, that's right. Zero

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 05:21 PM
you obviously missed the cowboy game where crayton got a 10 yd penalty for kicking a muffed punt oob. they cited the rule on tv.
well that's not what you said. of course he got a penalty for that. its not soccer. you have to pick the ball up or get on it or run with it. he could also have batted it OOB.

btw, it's completely irrelevant to the situation. Tampa was the team punting. not dallas. tampa didnt get a penalty for punting the ball out of bounds.

trojanbacker
09-17-2009, 05:26 PM
how many championships has he won?

oh, that's right. Zero


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the discussion was about winning championships. I thought it was about not punting on fourth down. I stand corrected. Thanks for your awesome observation.

dragonsdaddy
09-17-2009, 05:32 PM
well that's not what you said. of course he got a penalty for that. its not soccer. you have to pick the ball up or get on it or run with it. he could also have batted it OOB.

btw, it's completely irrelevant to the situation. Tampa was the team punting. not dallas. tampa didnt get a penalty for punting the ball out of bounds.
you would think football would allow kicking backwards or sideways at any time. seems like it used to be legal, and i can't imagine why it's not.

caesarscott
09-17-2009, 06:47 PM
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the discussion was about winning championships. I thought it was about not punting on fourth down. I stand corrected. Thanks for your awesome observation.the only reason to play is to win. see the Herm Edwards quote.

the supposition is that this guy is a mad genius and wins championships by eschewing special teams. maybe it works in Arkansas. if it was such a good idea, you'd see it every where. but we dont. i dont think 5 or 10 or 25 years down the road we'll see everybody going for it on 4th down every time.

Firebird
09-17-2009, 09:33 PM
the only reason to play is to win. see the Herm Edwards quote.

the supposition is that this guy is a mad genius and wins championships by eschewing special teams. maybe it works in Arkansas. if it was such a good idea, you'd see it every where. but we dont. i dont think 5 or 10 or 25 years down the road we'll see everybody going for it on 4th down every time.

There was a time when a pass first offense was viewed that way in Texas...as something that might work for some weird team like Mission, but would never win championships.

The coach is right on, simple numbers don't lie. Not to say that it will never backfire (the same way you can lose a bet that is stacked in your direction), but more often than not its the right call.

pied
09-17-2009, 09:37 PM
There was a time when a pass first offense was viewed that way in Texas...as something that might work for some weird team like Mission, but would never win championships.

The coach is right on, simple numbers don't lie. Not to say that it will never backfire (the same way you can lose a bet that is stacked in your direction), but more often than not its the right call.

My father in law and myself were convinced of that fact in about '95. Might work in 4A with Stephenville, but don't try that in the big league....

Eagles
09-18-2009, 06:05 AM
Thoughts?

Maybe the haven't a good punter and/or kicker:rolleyes: