F-22 cancellation budget debates....

[slcdragonfan]

So, opinions? The F-22 is local to Ft. Worth and Texas, so there is a lot of love here for the jobs and money spent in Texas. However, it appears that it is a weapon system looking for a reason to live, made for dogfights which don't happen anymore, upwards or more than $250Mill/plane.

From a budget perspective, fiscal conservatives should be very supportive, heck, even McCain believed it should be dropped. Also, as a defense hawk, you could be supportive because the money can be redirected to the F-35. Obama says he will veto if the appropriations are in there.

Meanwhile, our two senators are doing everything possible to keep the funding.


What is right, what is wrong, and what is your recommendation?

Personally, I believe our Senators should eat what they sell and cancel funding, supporting the F-35 instead. But a hard sell when it is jobs in your state. As a fiscal conservative, is anyone out there going to say Obama is doing the right thing? ;)

[the_phoenix612]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1912084,00.html

The President, SecDef, Air Force and Senate military leaders all agree on this one. Why is it debated?

[slcdragonfan]

I guess a deeper question that I am trying to get to is, what is the right thing for the TEXAS senators to do? IF they are fiscal conservatives, and this plane doesn't work, shouldn't they simply come out and say no, we don't support it? Heard on the news tonight the opposite.

[Firebird]

I guess a deeper question that I am trying to get to is, what is the right thing for the TEXAS senators to do? IF they are fiscal conservatives, and this plane doesn't work, shouldn't they simply come out and say no, we don't support it? Heard on the news tonight the opposite.

Whatever Obama isn't doing?

[pied]

Whatever Obama isn't doing?

To continue getting votes, probably so. I am very curious to see the statements of support of this project after Gates' comments.

Gates has dismissed such assertions. He spoke out forcefully in recent days against the F-22, saying the idea that not buying 60 more F-22s would imperil national security was "nonsensical." Gates, during a July 16 speech to the Economic Club of Chicago, spoke of F-22 backers' reliance on "far-fetched" arguments and asked: "If we cannot bring ourselves to make this tough decision, where do we draw the line?"

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2009/db20090721_226000.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

[slcdragonfan]

To continue getting votes, probably so. I am very curious to see the statements of support of this project after Gates' comments.



http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2009/db20090721_226000.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

See the Lehrer report from last night. Georgia Senator gave a speech to keep it.

IMO, this shows the hypocrisy of those Senators who claim to be fiscal conservatives.

[slcdragonfan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


I know, it it the Times, but I think an overall good and balanced article, very informative.

[pied]

I would like to hear an explanation from the Senators and members of the House who support it.

[Firebird]

There really can be a debate over this, in all honesty. The JSF (F-35) has encountered all sorts of delays. The first production models are being built and set to be delivered in 2010. The F-35 is not an air superiority fighter like the F-22, but will probably outperform anything currently flying other than the F-22. It is also an airplane that can be used across services and with some tweaks, on aircraft carriers, unlike the F-22 which is a ground based fighter. The planes across the services will share 80% of their production parts.

It's hard to see a role for a ground based dogfighter like the F-22. In today's wars the old air superiority fighter, the F-15, is not used in that role-- it is a strike aircraft like the F-35 is designed to be. But then again, no one can be sure that the next wars will look like current wars. What is for certain is that no other nation is even close to deploying a 5th gen fighter like the F-22 or F-35. The closest are the Russians with a few 4.5 gen aircraft in service.

[smw358]

Take a look what the F-22 can do....ask yourself would you want to fly anything else in a dog fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTK3zeFRLO8

[pied]

Take a look what the F-22 can do....ask yourself would you want to fly anything else in a dog fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTK3zeFRLO8

I'd prefer to fly a Predator.

[15Adragon]

I wish our Pres and Congress were as committed to identifying and cutting pork as they are to trimming the defense budget in a time of war. ;)

[Firebird]

I wish our Pres and Congress were as committed to identifying and cutting pork as they are to trimming the defense budget in a time of war. ;)

However will our forces live without a weapons system that has NEVER been used in either theater....

[15Adragon]

However will our forces live without a weapons system that has NEVER been used in either theater....

The only budget cuts that Obama has the stomach to propose are defense budget cuts. He can cut the budget for missle defense too all the while NK and others are working to improve their capabilities to hit us.

[cougmantx]

The Navy and Air Force budgets are getting cut routinely. The number of ships has been cut and personnel are being released. I read somewhere the Navy was down to 235000 personnel. I don't know how many were in when I was enlisted in the early '70's but this figure sounds low. My nephew was told by a Navy recruiter that they wouldn't even talk to him until he had 60 hours of college. I can't verify this but that was what he was saying this week end.

More and more we are going to see a army, navy and marines trained in spec-ops and support for spec-ops. We are quickly approaching the day of science fiction where specialized troops use more unmanned systems such as the predator.

The problem with this as I see it is we become more vulnerable to cyber warfare.

I think the F-22 is probably an over developed weapons system for this time in history and should probably be killed. I wouldn't be surprised though to see some of the technology developed for the F-22 to start showing up in other areas.

[pied]

I got to see the F22's out at Edward's several years back. Cool stuff, but they were rushing ahead of getting cancelled at that time as well, or so i was told. Those test pilots were a pertty cocky bunch.

[slcdragonfan]

Take a look what the F-22 can do....ask yourself would you want to fly anything else in a dog fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTK3zeFRLO8

The problem as I understand it is there are no more dogfights, and none expected. It is similar to saying what sword would you use in a sword fight, or what horse in a cavalry charge.

Same reason we are not building more battleships...

[slcdragonfan]

The only budget cuts that Obama has the stomach to propose are defense budget cuts. He can cut the budget for missle defense too all the while NK and others are working to improve their capabilities to hit us.

McCain, many members of DoD, the Secretary, the President....I think credit should be given here. It could have been used as a trading tool for the healthcare bill.

[15Adragon]

McCain, many members of DoD, the Secretary, the President....I think credit should be given here. It could have been used as a trading tool for the healthcare bill.

McCain barely > Obama :eek:

[pied]

Where does Gates fit in there?

[15Adragon]

McCain, many members of DoD, the Secretary, the President....I think credit should be given here. It could have been used as a trading tool for the healthcare bill.

My issue is not with F-22 just the fact that Obama was so quick to cut the missile defense while increasing so much spending on pork.

[15Adragon]

Where does Gates fit in there?

Probably short timer.

[the_phoenix612]

I wish our Pres and Congress were as committed to identifying and cutting pork as they are to trimming the defense budget in a time of war. ;)

Obama is increasing the budget to the DoD by 4%.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/02/defense_budget.html

[slcdragonfan]

Where does Gates fit in there?

wants it cancelled as well...

[slcdragonfan]

Take a look what the F-22 can do....ask yourself would you want to fly anything else in a dog fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTK3zeFRLO8

After viewing the video, a very impressive plane.

[slcdragonfan]

McCain barely > Obama :eek:

So who should have been the candidate? McCain was the best chance to capture the moderate vote. I think it has been proven that without moderate Americans a party cannot win the white house (unless of course there is controversy such as Watergate or Lewinsky).

McCain of 2000 could have won.

[15Adragon]

Obama is increasing the budget to the DoD by 4%.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/02/defense_budget.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123595811964905929.html



More ominously, Mr. Obama's budget has overall defense spending falling sharply starting in future years -- to $614 billion in 2011, and staying more or less flat for a half decade. This means that relative both to the economy and especially to domestic priorities, defense spending is earmarked to decline. Some of this assumes less spending on Iraq, which is realistic, but it also has to take account of Mr. Obama's surge in Afghanistan. That war won't be cheap either.

The danger is that Mr. Obama may be signaling a return to the defense mistakes of the 1990s. Bill Clinton slashed defense spending to 3% of GDP in 2000, from 4.8% in 1992. We learned on 9/11 that 3% isn't nearly enough to maintain our commitments and fight a war on terror -- and President Bush spent his two terms getting back to more realistic outlays for a global superpower.

American defense needs are, if anything, even more daunting today. Given challenges in the Mideast and new dangers from Iran, an erratic Russia, a rising China, and potential threats in outer space and cyberspace, the U.S. should be in the midst of a concerted military modernization. Mr. Obama's budget isn't adequate to meet those challenges.


Cut and paste back 2 u. :cool:

[the_phoenix612]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123595811964905929.html




Cut and paste back 2 u. :cool:

President Barack Obama’s topline budget projections for fiscal year 2010 allocate $534 billion to the Department of Defense, the largest allocation of any department. The amount represents roughly a 4-percent increase over the $513 billion allocated to the Pentagon in FY2009 under the Bush administration, and $6.7 billion more than the outgoing administration’s projections for FY 2010.

just because we're no longer increasing our military budget exponentially does not mean we're somehow cutting the military.

[Firebird]

How will we get by with a defense budget larger than the next 40 or so countries combined?

We learned nothing about the defense budget on 9/11. We had the largest defense budget in the world then, and we still do now. No amount of funding for the military would have prevented 9/11. The "War on Terror" has taught us only that endless war is expensive.

[15Adragon]

So who should have been the candidate? McCain was the best chance to capture the moderate vote. I think it has been proven that without moderate Americans a party cannot win the white house (unless of course there is controversy such as Watergate or Lewinsky).

McCain of 2000 could have won.

A weak field this past election. I figured it would be Rudy vs Billary, but man was I wrong. She should have done a Kerry and voted against the war before she voted for it....or some bull like that....

[15Adragon]

How will we get by with a defense budget larger than the next 40 or so countries combined?

We learned nothing about the defense budget on 9/11. We had the largest defense budget in the world then, and we still do now. No amount of funding for the military would have prevented 9/11. The "War on Terror" has taught us only that endless war is expensive.

My issue is the missile defense. We need to stick with that one.

[the_phoenix612]

How will we get by with a defense budget larger than the next 40 or so countries combined?

We learned nothing about the defense budget on 9/11. We had the largest defense budget in the world then, and we still do now. No amount of funding for the military would have prevented 9/11. The "War on Terror" has taught us only that endless war is expensive.

you only say that because you hate our troops.

Don't you know that its dishonorable to NOT want our troops in harm's way?

[the_phoenix612]

My issue is the missile defense. We need to stick with that one.

and why, exactly, is that, Mr. Military Expert?

Who is gonna shoot a ballistic missile at us?

[15Adragon]

and why, exactly, is that, Mr. Military Expert?

Who is gonna shoot a ballistic missile at us?

I guess nobody. :rolleyes:

We should just cut defense spending. Heck, we already have plenty of capability to bomb an a defenseless asprin factory if we need to.

[pied]

I guess nobody. :rolleyes:

We should just cut defense spending. Heck, we already have plenty of capability to bomb an a defenseless asprin factory if we need to.

God point. Two options available:

1. Build F22 and missile defense
2. Abandon the military

[the_phoenix612]

I guess nobody. :rolleyes:

We should just cut defense spending. Heck, we already have plenty of capability to bomb an a defenseless asprin factory if we need to.

No, I'm serious.

How would you react if Russia wanted to put missiles in Cuba, like we want to do in Central Asia?

Oh wait.....

[15Adragon]

No, I'm serious.

How would you react if Russia wanted to put missiles in Cuba, like we want to do in Central Asia?

Oh wait.....

I'm sure if we asked them nicely they wouldn't do that. We should explore all channels of diplomacy and if need be we can put together another apology tour.

[pied]

I'm sure if we asked them nicely they wouldn't do that. We should explore all channels of diplomacy and if need be we can put together another apology tour.

Brilliant analysis.

[15Adragon]

Brilliant analysis.

;)

[yankee]

I got to see the F22's out at Edward's several years back. Cool stuff, but they were rushing ahead of getting cancelled at that time as well, or so i was told. Those test pilots were a pertty cocky bunch.

i would be too if i were in the cockpit of an F22...

[pied]

i would be too if i were in the cockpit of an F22...

My impression of AF pilots. The athletes who may not have been good enough to start, but who were very good students and perhaps a bit nerdy.

[yankee]

My impression of AF pilots. The athletes who may not have been good enough to start, but who were very good students and perhaps a bit nerdy.

oh but they're good enough now, aren't they. ;)

[Favpack]

Carter's defensive cuts worked out well didn't they? Heck - Russia would have invaded Atlanta if Carter had won another term.

Reagan tooked Jimmy out back and nuked him.

[pied]

oh but they're good enough now, aren't they. ;)

Based on the women they bring in, I'd say not so much. My expectations were set by the movies, reality is much different. Get a bunch of drinks in these guys are they're really not much cooler.

[hoo2ers]

oh but they're good enough now, aren't they. ;)

Yes they are yankee. And to think with lots and lots of training and practice off their 12,000 ft runways,
they will be nearly as good as the USN...;)FLY NAVY