Is Smithson Valley a Top 5 PROGRAM in the state?

[ftballin11]

I want your opinion.

I think this team along with Katy gets the most out of the players given to them year in year out. Yes they play in a weak region 4 but I would probably put them at #4 for behind Trinity for best current programs.

Whats your thoughts.

[E-Vol-ution]

Make a poll.......I say absolutely not.

[mojo4life]

I want your opinion.

I think this team along with Katy gets the most out of the players given to them year in year out. Yes they play in a weak region 4 but I would probably put them at #4 for behind Trinity for best current programs.

Whats your thoughts.

I wouldn't say top 5 untill some championships are won...However I really am a fan of theres.

[twolf5]

Make a poll.......I say absolutely not.

I agree. I'd love to be playing them this year. Katy yes, SV no.

[ftballin11]

If you disagree give me your top 5.

[E-Vol-ution]

Can you edit and create a poll?If you disagree give me your top 5.

[ftballin11]

Can you edit and create a poll?

How? I dont make many threads.

[E-Vol-ution]

Click on your first post...hit the edit button and look at the bottom of your screen for poll features to make selections.How? I dont make many threads.

[twcpfan1]

How? I dont make many threads.

Go to thread tools and add poll. The option is open to whoever started the thread. If you want to see who votes for who, select that option.

[The Wet Mustard]

Katy
slc
Et

there are your only gimmes
the other two would have to be comprised from the likes of
SV
NS
CHILL ( hasnt been around longbut a championship)
Allen (same as above
LP

[svhorns]

Such a broad question...

I'm kind of curious how or why the question came about.

[svhorns]

Most Wins in the past 10 Seasons (1999-2008)
1. Katy (132-18-0)
2. Southlake Carroll (123-20-0)
3. Smithson Valley (121-19-0)
4. Galena Park North Shore (113-12-0)
5. Euless Trinity (111-19-0)
6. Lufkin (109-23-0)
7. Copperas Cove (104-23-0)
8. Allen (104-25-0)
9. Austin Westlake (104-28-0)
10. Pearland (102-21-0)

If your speaking about the last 10 years I can make an argument...but 0 state championships keeps us out of the top 4... I'd put us at 5 or 6... behind Katy, SLC, ET, and Allen and maybe North Shore...

[Mr. Rod]

Based on what i saw against Katy.... No. Too slow... they have size but couldn't do anything with it.
Top 5 (6) programs in the state (in no particular order)
SLC
TRINITY
KATY
ALLEN
NORTH SHORE
HIGHTOWER

[svhorns]

Based on what i saw against Katy.... No. Too slow... they have size but couldn't do anything with it.
Top 5 (6) programs in the state (in no particular order)
SLC
TRINITY
KATY
ALLEN
NORTH SHORE
HIGHTOWER

Hightower does not have a better program than SV. Hightower might have had the better team last year but SV year in year out is a contender.

[The Wet Mustard]

Hightower does not have a better program than SV. Hightower might have had the better team last year but SV year in year out is a contender.

Agreed. hightower needs to prove its not a team that can only go deep every once in a while

[Bass]

I'd say they're a top five program. They don't have the championships to back it up, but they certainly have the coaching and ability to run deep in the playoffs. They've made the final four six times since 1998, and advanced to the finals three times. I don't think one state title automatically cements teams like North Shore, Allen or Cedar Hill ahead of the Rangers.

I don't know many teams who make a stronger case than Smithson Valley for inclusion in the top five. Allen's probably the closest program to SV. Both have a bad history with Carroll, and both have been title contenders, more or less, since the early 2000s.

Katy, Carroll and Trinity are the top three at the moment, with Katy and Carroll interchangeable at 1 and 2.

1. Carroll
1. Katy
3. Trinity

[Gator4ever]

Smithson V. Is one of the best communities in TEXAS. The football program is "ONE" inch from doing whatever it wants to do.



Gator4ever

[Owned05]

Yes.

To me SV comes in at #5 behind #3 Trinity and #4 Allen with obviously Katy and Carroll being a toss up for #1-#2. Hard to argue with SV's success out of Region 4 weak or not. Lost to Carroll in 05 by a last second FG, right? They need to consistently get out of there Region more is the only complaint I have with them.

You could realistically put a few teams at the #5 spot. North Shore, Westlake, or Judson come to mind in addition to SV.

[E-Vol-ution]

Okay.......I guess you can be a top program without being able to beat the best 10 teams in another region because of the consistancy that wins are accumulated in the weakest region in Texas. :confused:

[svhorns]

Okay.......I guess you can be a top program without being able to beat the best 10 teams in another region because of the consistancy that wins are accumulated in the weakest region in Texas. :confused:

How do you know we can't beat those other top 10 teams from other regions? You're speaking as if we played those teams and got our butts handed to us... the last two teams to hand it to us pretty bad were Katy an SLC. We came within a last second field goal of beating the national champions and we've beat Katy(2002) and Clear Lake(2004) who beat Katy in 2004. We can play with anyone... faulting us because of where the school is located is a tired and played out rant... teams that have played us know we can handle our own whether they be from Dallas, Houston, or Austin.

[Wagnerdad]

The truth of the matter is that SV is year in year out one of the best programs in the state, as is Judson. You guys can call Region 4 weak all you want but the last time if I'm correct Judson beat North Shore in Houston!! But more inportantly check out all these programs over 15 or 20 years!!!

[E-Vol-ution]

If so...make it easy and play somebody non district. Call Coach Kemp at Arlington Bowie, he'd gladly oblige. This is 2009.
How do you know we can't beat those other top 10 teams from other regions? You're speaking as if we played those teams and got our butts handed to us... the last two teams to hand it to us pretty bad were Katy an SLC. We came within a last second field goal of beating the national champions and we've beat Katy(2002) and Clear Lake(2004) who beat Katy in 2004. We can play with anyone... faulting us because of where the school is located is a tired and played out rant... teams that have played us know we can handle our own whether they be from Dallas, Houston, or Austin.

[Bottomline]

They would be a Top 5 in the Most respected Catagory ... :notworthy

[Maroondog]

Please supply your definition of a top 5 program.

[bobcat83]

If so...make it easy and play somebody non district. Call Coach Kemp at Arlington Bowie, he'd gladly oblige. This is 2009.

Non district?? Since they became 5A in 2002

2002 and 2003
Port Arthur Memorial
SA Reagan
SA O'Connor
Austin Westlake
Temple
in those 2 years were 8 wins 2 losses one each to Westlake and Temple

2004 and 2005
RR Westwood
Pflugerville
Temple
5-1 losing once to Pflugerville

2006 and 2007
The Woodlands
Spring
4-0

2008
Judson
Wagner
2-0


19-3 non district against a pretty good non district schedule. I am sure your coach at Arlington Bowie would agree.And if you took a poll of coaches throughout the State SV wouldn't be far from the top 5.Besides their record that is how much Larry Hill is respected by his peers.Maybe not the fans who don't follow the program closely but certainly by the opponents.

[bobcat83]

Comparing ET/SV since Sv became 5A in 2002
I think everyone agrees ET is top 5


Regular Season ET 63-7 SV 62-8
playoffs ET 18-5 SV 22-7

2005 ET beat Judson for State 28-14
SV did beat Judson that year in District 21-7
2007 ET beat Judson for State 13-10
SV did beat Judson that year in District 31-7

2002 SV loses to SLC 45-14 in final
2004 SV loses to SLC 27-24 in final

I am not claiming they are top 5-but had they aren't that easy to dismiss either.
SLC,Katy and ET for sure since 2000 but the other 2 spots could go alot of different ways among those with 1 title and SV

[bobcat83]

One more thing-If you are going to dismiss SV because of no Championships-fine.
When you include those with one title since 2000 make sure you include Judson as a possible top 5 program- 1 win 2 loses in finals since 2000-most of the time from the same district as SV
4 wins 5 loses since 1990
maybe not as deep of a region but some pretty darn good teams

All depends on your criteria and time frame.

[cajun]

I'd say they're a top five program. They don't have the championships to back it up, but they certainly have the coaching and ability to run deep in the playoffs. They've made the final four six times since 1998, and advanced to the finals three times. I don't think one state title automatically cements teams like North Shore, Allen or Cedar Hill ahead of the Rangers.

I don't know many teams who make a stronger case than Smithson Valley for inclusion in the top five. Allen's probably the closest program to SV. Both have a bad history with Carroll, and both have been title contenders, more or less, since the early 2000s.

Katy, Carroll and Trinity are the top three at the moment, with Katy and Carroll interchangeable at 1 and 2.

1. Carroll
1. Katy
3. Trinity

I would think SV would be close to Top 5, if not Top 5...Just my opinion from this side...

PelicanPrep (Louisiana Rivals) did something like this last week in the 5A Class here...They just went back 5 years though...
Rummel made their list at #4 and we don't have any state titles period...We have been consistent if anything...Baton Rouge Catholic came in at #7 and they have no state titles either...I guess it's just how you look at it...

4. Archbishop Rummel
Considering only two other Class 5A teams were able to match or surpass Rummel's run of making at last the second round of the playoffs for five straight years, it's no surprise the Raiders find themselves this close to No. 1. Head coach Jay Roth led his team to the 5A semifinals in 2006 and the quarterfinals in 2007, racking up a record of 21-6 in the process. Rummel's hopes for a first-ever appearance in the Superdome in 2006 were denied in heart-breaking 7-0 loss to Sulphur. Coincidently, Acadiana, the team ranked right ahead of the Raiders, have eliminated Rummel each of the past two playoffs.


7. Catholic of Baton Rouge
The Bears did not make the playoffs last season for the first time in nearly two decades. But Catholic High of Baton Rouge grabs this spot on the strength of back-to-back semifinal appearances in 2005 and 2006. Long-time head coach Dale Weiner, one of the profession's most respected figures, had his finest team during that stretch in 2006 when a 13-0 squad was upset by Acadiana in the semifinals, 20-18. The year before, a 12-0 team lost to West Monroe 27-8 in the semifinals.


West Monroe was #1
Destrehan was #2
Acadiana was #3

[NHB06]

More like one of the top 10 underachieving programs in the state of Texas- somewhere between Plano East (#1) and Allen (#10).

[TrinityTrojan80]

Comparing ET/SV since Sv became 5A in 2002
I think everyone agrees ET is top 5


Regular Season ET 63-7 SV 62-8
playoffs ET 18-5 SV 22-7

2005 ET beat Judson for State 28-14
SV did beat Judson that year in District 21-7
2007 ET beat Judson for State 13-10
SV did beat Judson that year in District 31-7

2002 SV loses to SLC 45-14 in final
2004 SV loses to SLC 27-24 in final

I am not claiming they are top 5-but had they aren't that easy to dismiss either.
SLC,Katy and ET for sure since 2000 but the other 2 spots could go alot of different ways among those with 1 title and SV

The record is there but I am not convinced that if they were in the metroplex that the record would nearly the same!

It is only speculation on my part but what would Trinity's record vs SV's record if they were to swtich districts? I'm sure we will be split north and south for the most part on this.

[bobcat83]

The record is there but I am not convinced that if they were in the metroplex that the record would nearly the same!

It is only speculation on my part but what would Trinity's record vs SV's record if they were to swtich districts? I'm sure we will be split north and south for the most part on this.

Yes we would be split North vs South and I believe the South would be way out numbered on this board.
But I would say that the records would be very similar if they were to switch districts.For most of the seasons since they went 5A SV has faced Judson,Reagan,Madsion,Roosevelt,Macathur,Churchill in 265A.
For years(recent years) 265A was considered by many to be as strong top to bottom as any in the state.
Not going to argue it's the best right now but it is still in the top 5 as far as toughest districts.

[farmerfan]

The record is there but I am not convinced that if they were in the metroplex that the record would nearly the same!

It is only speculation on my part but what would Trinity's record vs SV's record if they were to swtich districts? I'm sure we will be split north and south for the most part on this.

Everybody wants us or the doubters to dismiss the weakness that SV reguarly plays down there. The truth of the matter is that the SA area is by far the weakest region in the entire state. That has been proven. Yes even weaker than Region 3.
They do not want to hear about how tough competition is up here but the numbers do not lie. There are plenty of districts up here that are just as tough as the 26 has been and in many caseses tougher. I can think of 3 in 6-5A, 8-5A and 7-5A. Right now SV ranks behind the likes of Carroll, Katy, Trinity, Allen, Shore, Judson and just ahead of Cedar Hill depending on the year CH has this year though they very well could surpass SV. Titles speak and speak loudly. To say that SV gets a pass because they do not have one is dumb. SV would rank in the top 5 best programs that have not won a title but right now thats it.

[farmerfan]

Yes we would be split North vs South and I believe the South would be way out numbered on this board.
But I would say that the records would be very similar if they were to switch districts.For most of the seasons since they went 5A SV has faced Judson,Reagan,Madsion,Roosevelt,Macathur,Churchill in 265A.
For years(recent years) 265A was considered by many to be as strong top to bottom as any in the state.
Not going to argue it's the best right now but it is still in the top 5 as far as toughest districts.

What is so special about those programs?

[farmerfan]

How do you know we can't beat those other top 10 teams from other regions? You're speaking as if we played those teams and got our butts handed to us... the last two teams to hand it to us pretty bad were Katy an SLC. We came within a last second field goal of beating the national champions and we've beat Katy(2002) and Clear Lake(2004) who beat Katy in 2004. We can play with anyone... faulting us because of where the school is located is a tired and played out rant... teams that have played us know we can handle our own whether they be from Dallas, Houston, or Austin.

It would be a tired and played out rant if you had the hardware to show. RIght now you don't and many believe that the reason you have the record you do is because of where you play. The numbers do not lie about Region 4 when they go up against others outside of the region. The numbers at SV do not lie either. 0-3 in title games and 0-3 vs the Metroplex. One title erases all this doubt and quickly elevates SV into the top 5. Until then most believe you are on the outside looking in to this debate.

[bobcat83]

What is so special about those programs?

Did't say they were "special" just think they compare pretty favorably with the teams in Trinity's district over the years.Am I wrong?

yes 1 title would put SV easily in the top 5-depending on your time frame.
But the concept that SV could not compete in the districts that ET,SLC,Plano, Allen etc.... are in is baffling to me.At least that is how it comes across on here alot.The way some talk is that SV might be a .500 team if they played there??
The last few years SA Reagan would have competed in any district also with Marcus Wright/Derrick Walls-just an exampple. We might not have any "GREAT" totally dominating teams in the SA area but we have quite a few really good teams that can compete week in and week out in any district.

[TrinityTrojan80]

Yes we would be split North vs South and I believe the South would be way out numbered on this board.
But I would say that the records would be very similar if they were to switch districts.For most of the seasons since they went 5A SV has faced Judson,Reagan,Madsion,Roosevelt,Macathur,Churchill in 265A.
For years(recent years) 265A was considered by many to be as strong top to bottom as any in the state.
Not going to argue it's the best right now but it is still in the top 5 as far as toughest districts.

Actually the ole 265 could be an example of some decent teams grouped together in a very poor region. Whoever emerges from that district gets a free ticket punched to the quarter finals, which make that district's record in the playoff shine.

In region 1, district 1 is weak, district 3 is a notch up, districts 2,4,5,6,7, & 8 are all pretty good. Districts 4, 6, 7, & 8 might have a different champion each year the competition makes it very difficult to have one team dominate every year.(except SLC)

[farmerfan]

Did't say they were "special" just think they compare pretty favorably with the teams in Trinity's district over the years.Am I wrong?

yes 1 title would put SV easily in the top 5-depending on your time frame.
But the concept that SV could not compete in the districts that ET,SLC,Plano, Allen etc.... are in is baffling to me.At least that is how it comes across on here alot.The way some talk is that SV might be a .500 team if they played there??
The last few years SA Reagan would have competed in any district also with Marcus Wright/Derrick Walls-just an exampple. We might not have any "GREAT" totally dominating teams in the SA area but we have quite a few really good teams that can compete week in and week out in any district.

I think those teams compare favorable with the teams in Trinity's district by playoff success only. Remember teams up here such as SGP who went 9-1 in 05 had to play Plano in the area round. Plano gave Carroll their toughest game of the year during the playoffs in 05. I-Mac who went 10-0 had to play Denton Ryan who was 9-1 in the 1st round in 2004 . Denton Ryan ended up losing to Carroll in round 4. So the teams in Trinity's district do not get to enjoy the playoff success up here simply due to no easy games in the first few weeks of the playoffs. That's why the whole District 26 being the toughest in the state is not exactly accurate IMO.

District championships would be sparse and by doing so would subject SV to play much tougher teams in rounds 1-4 than they are used to playing now. I do not think if they were playing up here they would have had as many trips to the quarterfinals, semifinals and state finals without a championship to show forth. I do not think SV would be a .500 team up here but I do think you would see more early exits from the playoffs up here than they see down there.

[farmerfan]

Actually the ole 265 could be an example of some decent teams grouped together in a very poor region. Whoever emerges from that district gets a free ticket punched to the quarter finals, which make that district's record in the playoff shine.

In region 1, district 1 is weak, district 3 is a notch up, districts 2,4,5,6,7, & 8 are all pretty good. Districts 4, 6, 7, & 8 might have a different champion each year the competition makes it very difficult to have one team dominate every year.(except SLC)

Even Southlake learned last year that in District 6 it's pretty tough to win the district Championship;)

[Maroondog]

I am sure 265 has some pretty decent backyard squabbles week in and week out but so do nearly all districts.

SV is a good program, but to never have hoisted the trophy even once and want to be considered top 5?

Even in their own district there are three other teams that have the hardware. May have been a while back, but they got it done.

[bobcat83]

I am sure 265 has some pretty decent backyard squabbles week in and week out but so do nearly all districts.

SV is a good program, but to never have hoisted the trophy even once and want to be considered top 5?

Even in their own district there are three other teams that have the hardware. May have been a while back, but they got it done.

Actually it wasn't an SV fan who started this poll and I don't believe any of us(SV Fans) have said they are definately top 5.
I and others have tried to say it's not that easy to dismiss that they are not a top 5!
We will never convince the north that SV would be able to compete in the metroplex and be as succesful as they have been.
I can't help but believe that Coaches like Lineweaver,Joseph and Dodge would agree that Larry Hill's SV teams would be succesful wherever they played.Would be interesting to have that discussion with them over a cold adult beverage

[farmerfan]

Actually it wasn't an SV fan who started this poll and I don't believe any of us(SV Fans) have said they are definately top 5.
I and others have tried to say it's not that easy to dismiss that they are not a top 5!
We will never convince the north that SV would be able to compete in the metroplex and be as succesful as they have been.
I can't help but believe that Coaches like Lineweaver,Joseph and Dodge would agree that Larry Hill's SV teams would be succesful wherever they played.Would be interesting to have that discussion with them over a cold adult beverage

What determines success?
If Larry Hill and SV had to compete up here on a annual basis then no they would not have had the success they have been able to enjoy against teams from that part of the state. I am sure there are plenty of coaches up here who would much rather face Larry Hill and SV than face Tom Westerberg and Allen or Joey McGwire and Cedar Hill or Reginald Samples and Dallas Skyline and the list could go on. I know the rest of the state hates the fact that the best football in Texas is played up here in the DFW but numbers don't lie. We simply do things different up here than the rest of the state is accustomed to.
You say one can not easily dismiss SV from being in top 5 contention, but why is that? Once again with the teams they have to compete against down there then its really not all that surprising that a team such as SV has emerged from the San Antonio area. But its not like the San Antonio area has a long history of producing several 5A championship programs.

[twcpfan1]

I really think they should seed the state semifinalists before they determine who plays who. Almost everybody thinks Katy will walk into the State Final game because nobody sees a worthy challenger out of Region 3 or 4. They should have R1 play R4 and R2 play R3.

Based on that, SV would have a tough time arguing a top 5 ranking overall. Maybe top 10

[bobcat83]

What determines success?
If Larry Hill and SV had to compete up here on a annual basis then no they would not have had the success they have been able to enjoy against teams from that part of the state. I am sure there are plenty of coaches up here who would much rather face Larry Hill and SV than face Tom Westerberg and Allen or Joey McGwire and Cedar Hill or Reginald Samples and Dallas Skyline and the list could go on. I know the rest of the state hates the fact that the best football in Texas is played up here in the DFW but numbers don't lie. We simply do things different up here than the rest of the state is accustomed to.
You say one can not easily dismiss SV from being in top 5 contention, but why is that? Once again with the teams they have to compete against down there then its really not all that surprising that a team such as SV has emerged from the San Antonio area. But its not like the San Antonio area has a long history of producing several 5A championship programs.

ok so SV couldn't compete in the metroplex.....might make the playoffs in a couple of the districts-might not in others.Larry Hill might rank in the top 10 coaches in the metroplex-might not.

Out of curiosity what are the top 4 programs from the metroplex since 2000 so we can round out the top 5 to go along with Katy??SLC,ET and we need 2 more.
And the next entry said SV might not even be a top 10 program? Do you back that claim also?

SV fan's aren't the ones that started this thread???It's just another way to bash region 4 andSV it seems

[Maroondog]

Actually it wasn't an SV fan who started this poll and I don't believe any of us(SV Fans) have said they are definately top 5.
I and others have tried to say it's not that easy to dismiss that they are not a top 5! We will never convince the north that SV would be able to compete in the metroplex and be as succesful as they have been.
I can't help but believe that Coaches like Lineweaver,Joseph and Dodge would agree that Larry Hill's SV teams would be succesful wherever they played.Would be interesting to have that discussion with them over a cold adult beverage

The reason it is easy to say that they are not a top 5 team is that they have never won a state title. Its as simple as that. Not trying to slam the program but SV is 0-fer in the title games.

I will say that if SV competed in the north, they would probably ramp up their game and become a genuine part of the mix, however, as of right now, it just ain't so.

[farmerfan]

ok so SV couldn't compete in the metroplex.....might make the playoffs in a couple of the districts-might not in others.Larry Hill might rank in the top 10 coaches in the metroplex-might not.

Out of curiosity what are the top 4 programs from the metroplex since 2000 so we can round out the top 5 to go along with Katy??SLC,ET and we need 2 more.
And the next entry said SV might not even be a top 10 program? Do you back that claim also?

SV fan's aren't the ones that started this thread???It's just another way to bash region 4 andSV it seems

If you go back and read my post I said SV would probably make the playoffs in the metromess but they would have many more 1-2 round exits than they would 4-5 round ones. You do not get a cakewalk up here to the deep rounds like they do down in Region 4.
Since 200 programs such as Allen, Cedar Hill, Hebron, with programs like Plano and Garland garnering some attention and other programs like Bowie here recently up there too.
I do not back the claim that SV would not be a top 10 program in the metroplex. I do however think up here they would lose on average of 1-3 games more a year than they are currently used to.

[twcpfan1]

I guess you'd have to look at these programs and determine which ones should be ranked below SV the last 7 years or so.

SLC
Katy
ET
Allen
Judson
NS
Permian
Plano
Cedar Hill
Lufkin
Tyler Lee

If you can honestly name 7 of these programs, then SV is top 5.

[farmerfan]

The reason it is easy to say that they are not a top 5 team is that they have never won a state title. Its as simple as that. Not trying to slam the program but SV is 0-fer in the title games.

I will say that if SV competed in the north, they would probably ramp up their game and become a genuine part of the mix, however, as of right now, it just ain't so.

You're right. I do not think anybody is slamming the program just that right now based on the lack of hardware they do not belong in this discussion yet. I would def say a top 10 program for sure and with the recent years probably the best program that has never won a state title with programs such as Arlington Lamar and Ike being right tehre behind them.

[farmerfan]

I guess you'd have to look at these programs and determine which ones should be ranked below SV the last 7 years or so.

SLC
Katy
ET
Allen
Judson
NSPermian
Plano
Cedar Hill
Lufkin
Tyler Lee

If you can honestly name 7 of these programs, then SV is top 5.

I can name 7 without a hesitation. Depending on what Cedar Hill does this year as well as Tyler Lee then you very easily could have two more. Tyler Lee has also had some nice teams advance far in the playoffs since 2000 so it might not be so tough to put them ahead of SV. Plano and Permian as an overall program, yes, not even close, here recently they need a few more years and Permian needs to advance past the 3rd round a time or two. They do have the benefit of having to have played the state champ in the 3rd round the past 3 years.

[bobcat83]

I can name 6 without a hesitation. Depending on what Cedar Hill does this year as well as Tyler Lee then you very easily could have two more. Tyler Lee has also had some nice teams advance far in the playoffs since 2000 so it might not be so tough to put them ahead of SV. Plano and Permian as an overall program, yes, not even close, here recently they need a few more years and Permian needs to advance past the 3rd round a time or two. They do have the benefit of having to have played the state champ in the 3rd round the past 3 years.

I can agree with 7
Katy
SLC
ET
Lufkin
NSHORE-although they seen to under achieve they have the title
Allen-Because of the 1 title
Judson-with the title and appearances althought SV own's them in district.

Plano and Permian-not since 2000
One could also argue that if SV went D1 they would have a title by now

but will not dismiss that SV would be a top contender year in and year out in any region they played in.

[farmerfan]

I can agree with 7
Katy
SLC
ET
Lufkin
NSHORE-although they seen to under achieve they have the title
Allen-Because of the 1 title
Judson-with the title and appearances althought SV own's them in district.

Plano and Permian-not since 2000
One could also argue that if SV went D1 they would have a title by now

but will not dismiss that SV would be a top contender year in and year out in any region they played in.

SV would not be a yearly contender up here. No way now how. They might have a few nice teams every couple of years but not on a yearly basis would they be a contender.
As for them having a title in D1, I would be interested in hearing this one.
What year where they goingto win the D1 title? I can not think of one year where they would have won a title had they gone int othe D1 bracket.

[E-Vol-ution]

lol........no way. Not even every other year. I can agree with 7
Katy
SLC
ET
Lufkin
NSHORE-although they seen to under achieve they have the title
Allen-Because of the 1 title
Judson-with the title and appearances althought SV own's them in district.

Plano and Permian-not since 2000
One could also argue that if SV went D1 they would have a title by now

but will not dismiss that SV would be a top contender year in and year out in any region they played in.

[twcpfan1]

So I guess based on bobcat's and farmer's responses, SV would be somewhere between 8-11. Still very respectable.

[E-Vol-ution]

They would be respectable....but have no where near the success they have had in their history.So I guess based on bobcat's and farmer's responses, SV would be somewhere between 8-11. Still very respectable.

[farmerfan]

So I guess based on bobcat's and farmer's responses, SV would be somewhere between 8-11. Still very respectable.

8-11 is very respectable. Could be pushed back if programs such as Bowie, SP and Skyline make a push and get a title in the next few years on top of maintaining the success that the coaches have brought into those program. Heck nobody is even mentinoing Hebron and with the title they already have and a few more deep runs and or another title then they would be up there too. If Erwin can get Marcus back into the mix then watch out there as well. THe point is I think there are about 3-5 programs in the metroplex that stand a better shot of winning a title (with the changes at the programs recently) than there are at SV.

[WOS87]

Is Smithson Valley a Top 5 PROGRAM in the state?

This is SUCH an open-ended question and TOTALLY depends on the time period one is looking at. In their first 18 years of existence (1976-1993) SV won a grand total of 44 games going 44-130-6 and only had a 26% winning percentage.

In the most recent 15 years (1994-2008) SV has gone 165-36-0 with an 82% winning percentage. 8 of those 15 years they competed in 4A and the most recent 7 in 5A with 3 State Championship Game appearances (1 in 4A, 2 in 5A) and no titles.

If you judge records and success from 2001-2008 I'd say SV would be in my top 5 (and that's being liberal)... I'm tempted to move the window up to 2002. Any further back than since 2001 is definitely NO!

[farmerfan]

Is Smithson Valley a Top 5 PROGRAM in the state?

This is SUCH an open-ended question and TOTALLY depends on the time period one is looking at. In their first 18 years of existence (1976-1993) SV won a grand total of 44 games going 44-130-6 and only had a 26% winning percentage.

In the most recent 15 years (1994-2008) SV has gone 165-36-0 with an 82% winning percentage. 8 of those 15 years they competed in 4A and the most recent 7 in 5A with 3 State Championship Game appearances (1 in 4A, 2 in 5A) and no titles.

If you judge records and success from 2001-2008 I'd say SV would be in my top 5 (and that's being liberal)... I'm tempted to move the window up to 2002. Any further back than since 2001 is definitely NO!

Who they have played to get to that success also should be taken into consideration. There are a lot of teams who given the road SV has had that would have the same success and quite possibly even more. A state title would take away from that perception that many have but as it has turned out, SV beats up on a weaker slate of teams and then when they play the bigger boys of the state they do not fare so well. Especially when compared to programs such as Lufkin, Lee and North Shore.

[WOS87]

Who they have played to get to that success also should be taken into consideration. There are a lot of teams who given the road SV has had that would have the same success and quite possibly even more. A state title would take away from that perception that many have but as it has turned out, SV beats up on a weaker slate of teams and then when they play the bigger boys of the state they do not fare so well. Especially when compared to programs such as Lufkin, Lee and North Shore.

I HAVE taken into consideration exactly what you're talking about. SV Has generally met or surpassed all expectations of them in each of the past 8 seasons. This is something which neither Lufkin (remember Round Rock and Klein Forest?), Lee (remember PESH, Skyline and Garland?) nor GPNS (remember Westfield x 2, Pearland, CJ and Hightower?) can say.

SV came VERY close to beating SLC in the 2004 Finals, losing on a last second field goal.

They knocked off Katy in 2002, and played them within 3 points in 2005.

They came within 7 points of undefeated 4A State Champ Denton Ryan in 2001, scoring the most points against them of anyone that season.

[farmerfan]

I HAVE taken into consideration exactly what you're talking about. SV Has generally met or surpassed all expectations of them in each of the past 8 seasons (something which neither Lufkin, Lee nor GPNS can say).

SV came VERY close to beating SLC in the 2004 Finals, losing on a last second field goal.

They knocked off Katy in 2002, and played them within 3 points in 2005.

They came within 7 points of undefeated 4A State Champ Denton Ryan in 2001, scoring the most points against them of anyone that season.

Could of would've should've. Carroll also had over 500 yards of offense against SV that year and limited the Rangers offense greatly. Carroll was taken down to th wire by Lufkin in 04 as well. Should we remember 2002? Remember how SV got blown off the field in one of the most lopsided state finals in the history of 5A football? Lufkin played Carroll to a 3 point loss just the week before. Lufkin has beat Katy twice in that same time frame too including 2002:eek:.

[WOS87]

*sigh*

I'm not sure how I all of the sudden became the champion of Smithson Valley. I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to 5A football programs.

I'll leave it as I said before. IN MY OPINION.... I would include SV in my Top 5 SINCE 2001. Any earlier than 2001, then they wouldn't be up there.

You are welcome to agree or disagree.

Happy 4th of July!! ;)

[farmerfan]

*sigh*

I'm not sure how I all of the sudden became the champion of Smithson Valley. I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to 5A football programs.

I'll leave it as I said before. IN MY OPINION.... I would include SV in my Top 5 SINCE 2001. Any earlier than 2001, than they wouldn't be up there.

You are welcome to agree or disagree.

Happy 4th of July!! ;)

I don't see where anybody called you a champion of SV. They do disagree with you and to the points you made they were easy to counter. I think your opinion is strictly based on a record and advancement that is seen by playing in what is far and away the weakest region in the entire state of Texas.

Happy 4th to you as well

[WOS87]

Could of would've should've. Carroll also had over 500 yards of offense against SV that year and limited the Rangers offense greatly. Carroll was taken down to th wire by Lufkin in 04 as well. Should we remember 2002? Remember how SV got blown off the field in one of the most lopsided state finals in the history of 5A football? Lufkin played Carroll to a 3 point loss just the week before. Lufkin has beat Katy twice in that same time frame too including 2002:eek:.

You're arguing using stats from 3 of the 4 teams I would rank ahead of SV.

Since 2001 my top 5 would be SLC, Katy, ET, Lufkin and SV, with CJ, North Shore, Allen and Westlake right behind, followed by Plano, Mojo and Cedar Hill

One State Championship does not a powerhouse make.... Does Mesquite deserve to be listed above SV because they won a title in 2001? They've gone 42-37 from 2002-2008.

[farmerfan]

You're arguing using stats from 3 of the 4 teams I would rank ahead of SV.

Since 2001 my top 5 would be SLC, Katy, ET, Lufkin and SV, with CJ, North Shore, Allen and Westlake right behind, followed by Plano, Mojo and Cedar Hill

One State Championship does not a powerhouse make....

One state championship does not make a powerhouse but you can't argue against those who do have not only a championship but quite a resume.
A truly elite program would ahve more than a few championship game and semifinal apperances, thats all SV has. Others have more.
Sure Allen lost in the first round in 07 but what about their state semi final apperances in 03 and 06? They lost in 04 nad 05 in the area round to the eventual state champs. Judson has a title since 01 and 2 more title game apperances, the same as SV. The championships won by Allen and Judson in the time frame we are talking about would trump anything SV has done. Same with North Shore. They have lost to at least 3 teams that I am aware of who advanced to a state finals in Westfield, Judson and Hightower. Not exactly losing to the weak sister either is it? Their winning percentage is better than SV's and they also have a title to show on their resume. Until SV gets that title it does not belong in a discussion of top 5 programs in this state.

[The Wet Mustard]

SV would not be a yearly contender up here. No way now how. They might have a few nice teams every couple of years but not on a yearly basis would they be a contender.
As for them having a title in D1, I would be interested in hearing this one.
What year where they goingto win the D1 title? I can not think of one year where they would have won a title had they gone int othe D1 bracket.

Maybe the year they lost to SLC very close

[farmerfan]

Maybe the year they lost to SLC very close

Hence I said a few nice teams every couple of years or so, but if they were up here on a yearly basis then they would not have even made it out of region 1 that year

[The Wet Mustard]

Hence I said a few nice teams every couple of years or so, but if they were up here on a yearly basis then they would not have even made it out of region 1 that year

You were asking which year they could have won D1 and i was saying the year they lost in the D2 final to SLC

[alleneagle4]

More like one of the top 10 underachieving programs in the state of Texas- somewhere between Plano East (#1) and Allen (#10).

somewhere between Plano East (#1), Plano Senior (#2) and Allen (#10)....... oh wait, nevermind, Allen won a State Championship this decade......
it was Plano that didn't!

FIFY
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[Bass]

More like one of the top 10 underachieving programs in the state of Texas- somewhere between Plano East (#1) and Allen (#10).

This has gotta be the dumbest post in this thread.

[alleneagle4]

This has gotta be the dumbest post in this thread.

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:rolleyes:

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[alleneagle4]

as much as I want to be a homer on this one
after I looked at it

SV numbers this decade are pretty amazing
109-18 total record for the decade
18-9 regular season record for the decade

people who are saying Allen would be in that top 5 (based on recent history) can compare SV's numbers to ours

96-22 total record since 2000
76-14 regular season record since 2000

now those are considerably lower, but obviously played in one of the toughest districts in the state

I can't speak for the Weakness of San Antonio region, I don't pay attention to them at all , but the SV records alone are amazing

However, even more amazing is that they had all those incredible seasons, yet still didn't win a title..........


Unfortunately that would be the deciding factor

Allen only has the recent Championship, but also lost to SLC four years in a row, twice in the State Semi-Finals

They also haven't lost a district game since 2005 I believe, in what many consider the toughest district in the great Republic of Texas.

Its not a big deal, and I not going to put my vote in, but a fifth spot IMO, would be highly contested between SV and Allen
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[bobcat83]

as much as I want to be a homer on this one
after I looked at it

SV numbers this decade are pretty amazing
109-18 total record for the decade
18-9 regular season record for the decade

people who are saying Allen would be in that top 5 (based on recent history) can compare SV's numbers to ours

96-22 total record since 2000
76-14 regular season record since 2000

now those are considerably lower, but obviously played in one of the toughest districts in the state

I can't speak for the Weakness of San Antonio region, I don't pay attention to them at all , but the SV records alone are amazing

However, even more amazing is that they had all those incredible seasons, yet still didn't win a title..........


Unfortunately that would be the deciding factor

Allen only has the recent Championship, but also lost to SLC four years in a row, twice in the State Semi-Finals

They also haven't lost a district game since 2005 I believe, in what many consider the toughest district in the great Republic of Texas.

Its not a big deal, and I not going to put my vote in, but a fifth spot IMO, would be highly contested between SV and Allen
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And most from SV would agree-again they didn't ask to be put in the top 5 or Start this thread!
Underachievers one said-now that is offensive!

[E-Vol-ution]

The quote was made by a poster (not an SV guy) in another forum to which I agreed that SV was a good and respected program, but a not top five team in Texas. I mean no disrespect to the SV program itself or brand of football. And most from SV would agree-again they didn't ask to be put in the top 5 or Start this thread!
Underachievingas one said-now that is offensive!

[lobo1982]

Tyler Lee in my opinion isn't a top 20 program. They have 1 state championship , but there overall record is not very good. I also believe they have only won district twice during this decade , maybe 3 at the most.

[TexasRed6x]

What determines success?
If Larry Hill and SV had to compete up here on a annual basis then no they would not have had the success they have been able to enjoy against teams from that part of the state. I am sure there are plenty of coaches up here who would much rather face Larry Hill and SV than face Tom Westerberg and Allen or Joey McGwire and Cedar Hill or Reginald Samples and Dallas Skyline and the list could go on. I know the rest of the state hates the fact that the best football in Texas is played up here in the DFW but numbers don't lie. We simply do things different up here than the rest of the state is accustomed to.
You say one can not easily dismiss SV from being in top 5 contention, but why is that? Once again with the teams they have to compete against down there then its really not all that surprising that a team such as SV has emerged from the San Antonio area. But its not like the San Antonio area has a long history of producing several 5A championship programs.

Do not get this wrong I am not trying to say that SV is a top 5 program, but the 3 that you listed are just now are coming into their own and have not always been football gods. I would have to put them in the top 10 and I feel that Larry Hill is as good as a coach as there is. They do compete in District 26-5A and year in and year out is one or not the best districts in the state, with some pretty good football teams. I believe folks think that they play a bunch of slug balls and that is why their record is so good, but that is hardly the case. I have always heard crap about the San Antonio area and its football but I do rememeber taking a pretty weak Judson team up to Houston to play the powerful NS team and it wasn't even close. I guess the moral to all of this it is easy to say things but it is just a guess because you never know and might never know.

[Bass]

One state championship does not make a powerhouse but you can't argue against those who do have not only a championship but quite a resume.
A truly elite program would ahve more than a few championship game and semifinal apperances, thats all SV has. Others have more.
Sure Allen lost in the first round in 07 but what about their state semi final apperances in 03 and 06? They lost in 04 nad 05 in the area round to the eventual state champs. Judson has a title since 01 and 2 more title game apperances, the same as SV. The championships won by Allen and Judson in the time frame we are talking about would trump anything SV has done. Same with North Shore. They have lost to at least 3 teams that I am aware of who advanced to a state finals in Westfield, Judson and Hightower. Not exactly losing to the weak sister either is it? Their winning percentage is better than SV's and they also have a title to show on their resume. Until SV gets that title it does not belong in a discussion of top 5 programs in this state.
Allen has the title, yes, but besides that, what have they done to show they're head and shoulders above Smithson Valley? Had they not won this past season, what would separate them from Smithson Valley?

I agree Judson's title in similar circumstances to SV puts them ahead.

Smithson Valley has lost to Katy and Denton Ryan in the semis. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

[twcpfan1]

Allen has the title, yes, but besides that, what have they done to show they're head and shoulders above Smithson Valley? Had they not won this past season, what would separate them from Smithson Valley?

Much much tougher region and district.
Quality of wins
No losses to teams like San Marcos and blowing playoff games against Madison without their best player.
Of course it was not a myth that they won state. They did win state and beat some great teams on the way. But even prior to 08, I'd give them the edge. I mean they better be good. They look like they have about a million kids judging by that band of theirs.

[Bass]

Much much tougher region and district.
Quality of wins
No losses to teams like San Marcos and blowing playoff games against Madison without their best player.
Of course it was not a myth that they won state. They did win state and beat some great teams on the way. But even prior to 08, I'd give them the edge. I mean they better be good. They look like they have about a million kids judging by that band of theirs.

A lot of good those wins do you when your season ends to Carroll...
2003: 37-21
2004: 52-14
2005: 45-15
2006: 38-0

No losses to teams like San Marcos...?
2007: Rowlett 37, Allen 33

Allen's title year is the only year I see them as having a clear advantage over Smithson Valley. If you want to compare each program's best season, Allen in 2008 trumps Smithson Valley in 2004.

[Bass]

And for how long has Allen's district been considered the toughest in the state? I understand last year, but it seems a lot of people now are acting like it's been the toughest district in the state for the past five seasons.

[twcpfan1]

A lot of good those wins do you when your season ends to Carroll...
2003: 37-21
2004: 52-14
2005: 45-15
2006: 38-0

No losses to teams like San Marcos...?
2007: Rowlett 37, Allen 33

Allen's title year is the only year I see them as having a clear advantage over Smithson Valley. If you want to compare each program's best season, Allen in 2008 trumps Smithson Valley in 2004.

I guess that would depend if you think a playoff loss to San Marcos =< a playoff loss to Rowlett. With the tougher region, they still have the edge. The losses to Carroll were expected. They're only the most dominant team of the decade arguably. And it's not like SV can beat em. They're 0-fer as well.

[Bass]

I guess that would depend if you think a playoff loss to San Marcos =< a playoff loss to Rowlett. With the tougher region, they still have the edge. The losses to Carroll were expected. They're only the most dominant team of the decade arguably. And it's not like SV can beat em. They're 0-fer as well.

You can't argue that since everyone lost to Carroll you can't compare relative success. Smithson Valley had two shots over three years against the Dragons and went from a thrity one-point loss to a four-point loss. They only played twice, but in similar circumstances SV closed the gap, at least. Allen went from a sixteen-point loss to thirty and thirty eight. You'd think familiarity would have aided the Eagles.

And as far as a first round loss, it doesn't matter who it's to when you're one of these programs. Allen was 10-0 and Smithson Valley 9-1. Both should have stomped 5-5 Rowlett and 5-5 San Marcos, But Allen got down 30-0 in the second quarter. San Marcos went on to the region final, at least, losing by seven to MacArthur. Rowlett lost 49-7 the next week to Skyline.

[twcpfan1]

You can't argue that since everyone lost to Carroll you can't compare relative success. Smithson Valley had two shots over three years against the Dragons and went from a thrity one-point loss to a four-point loss. They only played twice, but in similar circumstances SV closed the gap, at least. Allen went from a sixteen-point loss to thirty and thirty eight. You'd think familiarity would have aided the Eagles.

But at least Allen improved enough to actually get the ring. Doubtful Carroll would have beaten them in 08. Would not be so sure about SV's chances against Carroll

And as far as a first round loss, it doesn't matter who it's to when you're one of these programs. Allen was 10-0 and Smithson Valley 9-1. Both should have stomped 5-5 Rowlett and 5-5 San Marcos, But Allen got down 30-0 in the second quarter. San Marcos went on to the region final, at least, losing by seven to MacArthur. Rowlett lost 49-7 the next week to Skyline.

When u compare R1 to R4, it's chalk and cheese.


... Just have to agree to disagree on this one. Your points are valid and definitely worth arguing. I guess it's close either way you go notwithstanding Allen's state ring. At this point though, I would predict a non KHS Houston team would probably win state before SV would.

[CaneDadCat5]

Let's look at SV's 5a existence (2002). They have an outstanding record but so does Trinity, SLC, Allen, and especially North Shore over the last 7 years. All have titles.

Hightower, Heborn, SV, and Wiley, No titles but great records.

CREDITS to (WOS87):notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

[slcdragonfan]

Most Wins in the past 10 Seasons (1999-2008)
1. Katy (132-18-0)
2. Southlake Carroll (123-20-0)
3. Smithson Valley (121-19-0)
4. Galena Park North Shore (113-12-0)
5. Euless Trinity (111-19-0)
6. Lufkin (109-23-0)
7. Copperas Cove (104-23-0)
8. Allen (104-25-0)
9. Austin Westlake (104-28-0)
10. Pearland (102-21-0)

If your speaking about the last 10 years I can make an argument...but 0 state championships keeps us out of the top 4... I'd put us at 5 or 6... behind Katy, SLC, ET, and Allen and maybe North Shore...

The surprise to me on that list was Copperas Cove...didn't know the program was that good.

[slcdragonfan]

Even Southlake learned last year that in District 6 it's pretty tough to win the district Championship;)

....sunspots.....

[Bass]

... Just have to agree to disagree on this one. Your points are valid and definitely worth arguing. I guess it's close either way you go notwithstanding Allen's state ring. At this point though, I would predict a non KHS Houston team would probably win state before SV would.

I agree with this, but only because SV usually has to go through Katy late in the season and, as a homer, I don't see them beating the Tigers for the next few seasons. In D1 there's just that many more good teams from R3 that could get the job done, so it's easy to draw that assumption.

The better question might be who wins a title next, Smithson Valley or Judson?

[Bass]

Let's look at SV's 5a existence (2002). They have an outstanding record but so does Trinity, SLC, Allen, and especially North Shore over the last 7 years. All have titles.

Hightower, Heborn, SV, and Wiley, No titles but great records.

CREDITS to (WOS87):notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

The difference in Smithson Valley and North Shore is people don't sit around saying, "When's Smithson Valley gonna choke?" With as much talent as the Mustangs have every year coupled with their great coaching (proven in the regular season, at least), they should, without a doubt, be title contenders every year. Smithson Valley, has one or two D1-caliber players, max, every season and people still anticipate deep runs from them without anticipating an early exit.

There's not a lot of distinction between Allen, North Shore and Smithson Valley, to me. Allen and NS have the titles, but it's not like they run circles around SV with their success year in and year out.

[Hitman49]

Is Smithson Valley a Top 5 PROGRAM in the state?

This is SUCH an open-ended question and TOTALLY depends on the time period one is looking at. In their first 18 years of existence (1976-1993) SV won a grand total of 44 games going 44-130-6 and only had a 26% winning percentage.

In the most recent 15 years (1994-2008) SV has gone 165-36-0 with an 82% winning percentage. 8 of those 15 years they competed in 4A and the most recent 7 in 5A with 3 State Championship Game appearances (1 in 4A, 2 in 5A) and no titles.

If you judge records and success from 2001-2008 I'd say SV would be in my top 5 (and that's being liberal)... I'm tempted to move the window up to 2002. Any further back than since 2001 is definitely NO!

Good Post.

[Hitman49]

... Just have to agree to disagree on this one. Your points are valid and definitely worth arguing. I guess it's close either way you go notwithstanding Allen's state ring. At this point though, I would predict a non KHS Houston team would probably win state before SV would.

had Allen and SV played every year for the last 15, SV would have the better record. Something like 10-5 . Times have really changed during those last 15years and now Allen without question has the best Athletes.

[farmerfan]

Do not get this wrong I am not trying to say that SV is a top 5 program, but the 3 that you listed are just now are coming into their own and have not always been football gods. I would have to put them in the top 10 and I feel that Larry Hill is as good as a coach as there is. They do compete in District 26-5A and year in and year out is one or not the best districts in the state, with some pretty good football teams. I believe folks think that they play a bunch of slug balls and that is why their record is so good, but that is hardly the case. I have always heard crap about the San Antonio area and its football but I do rememeber taking a pretty weak Judson team up to Houston to play the powerful NS team and it wasn't even close. I guess the moral to all of this it is easy to say things but it is just a guess because you never know and might never know.

Nobody is saying that Region 3 and Houston is a hotbed of excellent football either, especially when compared to up here. All we have heard about for a while is how great and tough this so called 26-5 has been, what results do they have to show for other than playing against teams that nobody outside your region knows a lick about? This greatness of 26 has been extended beyond the region but up here it would just be another district. You talk about that greatness with only one title but I believe even the title this decade did not come from 26 but I could be wrong on that, even though, no titles does not help your cause at all.
As for the other teams, thsoe are all programs that have been loaded with talent, they no longer are considered that. Those are now programs who have some great coaching, coaching every bit as good if not better than Coach Larry Hill I say every bit because some of those coaches have made it to the state finals and other deep appearances in the playoffs while other coaches have the state titles and deep appearances to show as well.
As for not knowing how weak the SA are is, answer me this, how come only 2 programs from SA have won a state title since 1980? How come since 1995 there has only been 1 program and 2 titles won by a SA area school? By far the least amount for any area and region in this state. Results speak loudly and one can't help but look at the overall weakness that has been Region 4 for a while now.

[farmerfan]

Allen has the title, yes, but besides that, what have they done to show they're head and shoulders above Smithson Valley? Had they not won this past season, what would separate them from Smithson Valley?

I agree Judson's title in similar circumstances to SV puts them ahead.

Smithson Valley has lost to Katy and Denton Ryan in the semis. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

Yes they are head and shoulders above SV now. A title is worth a lot and people kept talking about how Allen couldnt do this or couldn't do that but they finally win it all last year. This to go along with 2 more state semi-final appearances. You look at the area round defeats to Carroll and question them and I could see the black eye on those, but what about the total raping that SV took from Katy last year in the semis? Or how they blew a lead against Madison in the 07 quarterfinals and then we saw how bad Madison got blown out the following week. You all always tout how awesome that Katy teams was, so answer me this, SV plays Katy that year, you think they keep it close against the Tigers?

So while its nothing to be ashamed of by losing to Katy in the semis. I would say Allen can more than say the same with their defeats to Carroll in the playoffs. Allen has never lost a huge lead in the playoffs either now either have they? Sure the loss to Rowlett does not help their cause but neither does SV's loss to San Marcos a few years ago or Shcertz Clemens in the 2nd round not too long ago either. So before Allen won the title the resumes were very similar, SV had the wins but Allen had the schedule and tougher teams it was playing. Now Allen has a title while SV still is 0'fer there. That right there clearly trumps SV as a better overall program for this decade.

[farmerfan]

Let's look at SV's 5a existence (2002). They have an outstanding record but so does Trinity, SLC, Allen, and especially North Shore over the last 7 years. All have titles.

Hightower, Heborn, SV, and Wiley, No titles but great records.

CREDITS to (WOS87):notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

If one can bring up the Denton Ryan game from 01 for SV then one needs to point out your mistake about Hebron. Hebron won the 4A Div 2 state championship in 2005 with a 28-0 victory over CC Calalen completing a perfect 16-0 record. Not too bad for a program who just completed its 10th varsity season

[twcpfan1]

Let's look at SV's 5a existence (2002). They have an outstanding record but so does Trinity, SLC, Allen, and especially North Shore over the last 7 years. All have titles.

Hightower, Heborn, SV, and Wiley, No titles but great records.

CREDITS to (WOS87):notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

Hebron has a 4a title. Pretty sure.

[SLC13]

First let me say that I have an immense amount of respect for the SV program. when you play them you always know you were in a game!! That said, even with their excellent 10 year record, I think they will not be perceived as a top 5 program by most until they win a championship.....

I'm not sure that Allen is top 5 either, but they sure seem a lot closer now than a year ago. If you think about all the grief they were getting back then, one championship run seems to have changed the opinion of a lot of folks about them now.

SV has plenty of examples, Allen just being the latest, of teams that took the negative being said about them and used it to their advantage. Just go get it done!!

[Hitman49]

Hebron has a 4a title. Pretty sure.

Yes- they do. Hebron has talent and coaching

[farmerfan]

The difference in Smithson Valley and North Shore is people don't sit around saying, "When's Smithson Valley gonna choke?" With as much talent as the Mustangs have every year coupled with their great coaching (proven in the regular season, at least), they should, without a doubt, be title contenders every year. Smithson Valley, has one or two D1-caliber players, max, every season and people still anticipate deep runs from them without anticipating an early exit.

There's not a lot of distinction between Allen, North Shore and Smithson Valley, to me. Allen and NS have the titles, but it's not like they run circles around SV with their success year in and year out.

Allen and NS do have a clear edge on SV. Their programs have proven that they can get the jobs done while SV hasn't.
You say people sit around and ask when is so and so going to choke and not the other program, let me ask you this, how many people sit around and ask, "this is the year SV wins the title" no they don't. People also expect big playoff runs because they do have one of hte best programs in region 4 but the competition is so minimal that it allows us to think that. North Shore has lost games to teams such as Westfield, who went to the finals and Hightower this past year who also went to the finals. Along with their state championship they have a few more apperances that have seen them go deep. So yes people may sit around and say when are the going to choke but they proved those skeptics wrong once. Now when has SV proved their skeptics wrong?
Will you people also stop using the whole D1 talent argument. Does it help? Sure but its not the deciding factor. THere have been some state champs that did not benefit from having a single D1 player on their team.
Its not like SV is playing a bunch of teams down there in their district or region that are also loaded with D1 talent. The SA area is not exactly known as a D1 hotbed.

[twcpfan1]

The difference in Smithson Valley and North Shore is people don't sit around saying, "When's Smithson Valley gonna choke?" With as much talent as the Mustangs have every year coupled with their great coaching (proven in the regular season, at least), they should, without a doubt, be title contenders every year. Smithson Valley, has one or two D1-caliber players, max, every season and people still anticipate deep runs from them without anticipating an early exit.

There's not a lot of distinction between Allen, North Shore and Smithson Valley, to me. Allen and NS have the titles, but it's not like they run circles around SV with their success year in and year out.

See there's that whole business about talent again, a card that SV, Katy and SLC play quite a bit. Just because they have a disproportionate number of black guys on their teams, they're so quick to claim that they're getting the job done with inferior talent and athleticism. Conversely, just because teams like NS and Lufkin have mostly black players, the assumption is they must have more speed and talent and underachieve when they go out early in the playoffs. Guess what. Katy, SLC and SV have more than adequate talent, size and speed in the years they have done well. Your coaches are good but they're not that good that they'd win titles with only scrawny, slow white guys.

[farmerfan]

had Allen and SV played every year for the last 15, SV would have the better record. Something like 10-5 . Times have really changed during those last 15years and now Allen without question has the best Athletes.

Allen as a program was not horrible up until around 96. I believe they even went winless in district in 93,94 and or 95. Todd Graham did a lot for Allen and Joe Martin added to it. Westerberg in the last few years has finally elevated the program to new heights by winning a title and advancing to the semis in the last 3 years. Had Allen adn SV been playing this decade I would say that Allen would probably hold something like a 6-3 advantage, maybe 5-4.

[CaneDadCat5]

[quote=Bass;1228586]The difference in Smithson Valley and North Shore is people don't sit around saying, "When's Smithson Valley gonna choke?" With as much talent as the Mustangs have every year coupled with their great coaching (proven in the regular season, at least), they should, without a doubt, be title contenders every year. Smithson Valley, has one or two D1-caliber players, max, every season and people still anticipate deep runs from them without anticipating an early exit.


This is were we must agree to disagree. Talent should not be considered when speaking of championships and winning. I learned that during the Permian, Katy and Stephenville Dyanasties. Talent should never equate to titles. Yates, Madison, Carter, Holmes, would have won many more titles than they have (should have). Northshore has talent, but it has the Katys, Cys, Hightower, and Pearland etc to exit and look at this years preseason schedule. It is a guantlet to get out of region III and for your reward you get Westlake, the Round Rocks, and SV's. The reward for that is Region I. I will never call North Shore a choke team. They have more state titles than most of the schools in the state (1).

[farmerfan]

First let me say that I have an immense amount of respect for the SV program. when you play them you always know you were in a game!! That said, even with their excellent 10 year record, I think they will not be perceived as a top 5 program by most until they win a championship.....

I'm not sure that Allen is top 5 either, but they sure seem a lot closer now than a year ago. If you think about all the grief they were getting back then, one championship run seems to have changed the opinion of a lot of folks about them now.

SV has plenty of examples, Allen just being the latest, of teams that took the negative being said about them and used it to their advantage. Just go get it done!!

So who would your top 5 be?
As everybody as said, we have a definite 3 in Carroll, Katy and Trinity. Who else occupies your top 5?

[TexasRed6x]

Nobody is saying that Region 3 and Houston is a hotbed of excellent football either, especially when compared to up here. All we have heard about for a while is how great and tough this so called 26-5 has been, what results do they have to show for other than playing against teams that nobody outside your region knows a lick about? This greatness of 26 has been extended beyond the region but up here it would just be another district. You talk about that greatness with only one title but I believe even the title this decade did not come from 26 but I could be wrong on that, even though, no titles does not help your cause at all.
As for the other teams, thsoe are all programs that have been loaded with talent, they no longer are considered that. Those are now programs who have some great coaching, coaching every bit as good if not better than Coach Larry Hill I say every bit because some of those coaches have made it to the state finals and other deep appearances in the playoffs while other coaches have the state titles and deep appearances to show as well.
As for not knowing how weak the SA are is, answer me this, how come only 2 programs from SA have won a state title since 1980? How come since 1995 there has only been 1 program and 2 titles won by a SA area school? By far the least amount for any area and region in this state. Results speak loudly and one can't help but look at the overall weakness that has been Region 4 for a while now.

What case am I trying to make? All I stated that you threw CH, Allen and Skyline up to everyone like they have been dragon killers for years. Over the past 3 to 4 years they have made some noise but not Skyline. This thread is if SV is a top 5 program and I have already stated not in the top 5 but for sure in the top 10. And one team has 6 titles out of region 4 and has played in 12 championships as well. Again I know you are going to say 'IF" they played up here they would not but you know they don't and again words are easy to say. Now if you are talking SLC, Plano, OP, Katy, then hell no they do not top those programs. Allen could just be like SA Roosevelt they won a title but not we are not trying to say top 5 program just like Allen and CH.

[farmerfan]

What case am I trying to make? All I stated that you threw CH, Allen and Skyline up to everyone like they have been dragon killers for years. Over the past 3 to 4 years they have made some noise but not Skyline. This thread is if SV is a top 5 program and I have already stated not in the top 5 but for sure in the top 10. And one team has 6 titles out of region 4 and has played in 12 championships as well. Again I know you are going to say 'IF" they played up here they would not but you know they don't and again words are easy to say. Now if you are talking SLC, Plano, OP, Katy, then hell no they do not top those programs. Allen could just be like SA Roosevelt they won a title but not we are not trying to say top 5 program just like Allen and CH.

Where did I say Dragon for years?
This is the comment that led me to say what I did I can't help but believe that Coaches like Lineweaver,Joseph and Dodge would agree that Larry Hill's SV teams would be succesful wherever they played I followed that up by saying that coaches would rather face Hill's SV teams than face the likes of Skyline, Allen and CH now. All three places have coaches every bit as good as Coach Hill has proven to be and two of those programs now have state titles to their credit in the last 3 years.
As for Judson, if you would read my comments more clearly Ii have stated on a few occasions that the SA area has one program, one who can claim a title in the past 13 years. Thats not too great. They have a total of 2 programs siknce 1980 who can claim a title too. Judson being one.

As for Allen being the next Roosevelt, nice try. Allen was already an est program before this past title. I do not recall Roosevelt having the resume that Allen did when they won their title in 95. Cedar Hill has followed their title with an 8 win season as well as a 12-13 win season. I don't think you can label them in the Roosevelt category either. So for all we know is that comparison can already be thrown out the window.

[Bass]

Yes they are head and shoulders above SV now. A title is worth a lot and people kept talking about how Allen couldnt do this or couldn't do that but they finally win it all last year. This to go along with 2 more state semi-final appearances. You look at the area round defeats to Carroll and question them and I could see the black eye on those, but what about the total raping that SV took from Katy last year in the semis? Or how they blew a lead against Madison in the 07 quarterfinals and then we saw how bad Madison got blown out the following week. You all always tout how awesome that Katy teams was, so answer me this, SV plays Katy that year, you think they keep it close against the Tigers?

So while its nothing to be ashamed of by losing to Katy in the semis. I would say Allen can more than say the same with their defeats to Carroll in the playoffs. Allen has never lost a huge lead in the playoffs either now either have they? Sure the loss to Rowlett does not help their cause but neither does SV's loss to San Marcos a few years ago or Shcertz Clemens in the 2nd round not too long ago either. [b][COLOR="DarkOrange"]So before Allen won the title the resumes were very similar, SV had the wins but Allen had the schedule and tougher teams it was playing. Now Allen has a title while SV still is 0'fer there. That right there clearly trumps SV as a better overall program for this decade.[/QUOTE]

1. Yes, a title is worth a lot, but Smithson Valley would be in the exact same position as Allen had they won a title this past year. Before 2008, all people talked about was how neither school could get it done. But it seems like now Allen's won a title, all of their other years were "just short", or were all leading up to this title. Like we all saw it coming. Their previous years are now being elevated to status of a "top Texas program."

2. Like this. Those semi-final appearances are thrown in like they were telling of things to come, when in reality they lost by an average score of 38-11.

3. This just closes the gap between the programs in my eyes. They've both taken their licks and neither one can claim their losses were better than the other's.

4. I was using Carroll as a common opponent. In the two games SV played against the Dragons, they adjusted much better than the Eagles did through four meetings.

5. Allen's championship does not elevate their previous shortcomings. And who cares if you're getting beat by really good teams? You're still getting beat. The tougher schedule only helps Allen out in 2008.

[Bass]

Allen and NS do have a clear edge on SV. Their programs have proven that they can get the jobs done while SV hasn't.
You say people sit around and ask when is so and so going to choke and not the other program, let me ask you this, how many people sit around and ask, "this is the year SV wins the title" no they don't. People also expect big playoff runs because they do have one of hte best programs in region 4 but the competition is so minimal that it allows us to think that. North Shore has lost games to teams such as Westfield, who went to the finals and Hightower this past year who also went to the finals. Along with their state championship they have a few more apperances that have seen them go deep. So yes people may sit around and say when are the going to choke but they proved those skeptics wrong once. Now when has SV proved their skeptics wrong?
Will you people also stop using the whole D1 talent argument. Does it help? Sure but its not the deciding factor. THere have been some state champs that did not benefit from having a single D1 player on their team.
Its not like SV is playing a bunch of teams down there in their district or region that are also loaded with D1 talent. The SA area is not exactly known as a D1 hotbed.

I'm just saying that with as great of players as North Shore has, their coaching should put them over the edge, but they still don't excell the way you'd expect and the way they're projected to finish at the start of each season.

[ftballin11]

So what I'm gathering from this thread.

Everybody agrees that Trinity, SLC, and Katy make up the top 3.

After that there is a group of teams that have an argument for being in the top 5, Including.

SV
Allen
NS
Judson


If it was my top 5 it would look like this.

1. Katy
2. SLC
3. Trinity
4. SV
5. NS
6. Allen
7. LP

4 through 7 are all very close.

But from what I understand, if SV were to win a state title, would it jump there stock like it did Allen this year?

[farmerfan]

Now Allen has a title while SV still is 0'fer there. That right there clearly trumps SV as a better overall program for this decade.

1. Yes, a title is worth a lot, but Smithson Valley would be in the exact same position as Allen had they won a title this past year. Before 2008, all people talked about was how neither school could get it done. But it seems like now Allen's won a title, all of their other years were "just short", or were all leading up to this title. Like we all saw it coming. Their previous years are now being elevated to status of a "top Texas program."

2. Like this. Those semi-final appearances are thrown in like they were telling of things to come, when in reality they lost by an average score of 38-11.

3. This just closes the gap between the programs in my eyes. They've both taken their licks and neither one can claim their losses were better than the other's.

4. I was using Carroll as a common opponent. In the two games SV played against the Dragons, they adjusted much better than the Eagles did through four meetings.

5. Allen's championship does not elevate their previous shortcomings. And who cares if you're getting beat by really good teams? You're still getting beat. The tougher schedule only helps Allen out in 2008.[/QUOTE]

It does not close the gaps, it widens the gap in Allens favor. Nobody is dismissing the years that Allen did not win a title but they all sure looked to have led to what we saw out of the Eagles in 2008. The fact of the matter is they kept on playing Carroll and taking their licks and kept on coming back and this past year it elevated them to a title. Who cares if it was 38-11 on avearge in those semis, did they not win a title this past year?
Too bad SV can't say the same thing. Funny though how now titles don't mean a hill of beans especially coming from a fan who has had to defend this past title left and rigth against others. This title does promote Allen over SV. Allen also has had two state semifinal apperances to go along with this new state title. How the hell has what SV done proven to be better than Allen. Especially when they were getting to play teams such as San Benito, SA Clark, SA Jay, San Marcos among others. Thats a tad differnt than playing SLC in round 2.

As for the playing Carroll and digressing card, what does that say agbout Katy then? They went from a 1 pt victory to a 15 point beatdown that saw a trash time TD cut the deficit from 22 to 15. I guess as a program Katy is not anywhere near SV either then.

I guess the really funny thing though is seeing how the majority of the fan base that is defending SV on this poll is that which is associated with Katy. I guess this is their way to try and justify playing a worthy opponent in the playoffs for once by saying that they are top 5 and over programs that have accomplished more than SV in this state. A for effort though Katy fans. :notworthy

[Bass]

See there's that whole business about talent again, a card that SV, Katy and SLC play quite a bit. Just because they have a disproportionate number of black guys on their teams, they're so quick to claim that they're getting the job done with inferior talent and athleticism. Conversely, just because teams like NS and Lufkin have mostly black players, the assumption is they must have more speed and talent and underachieve when they go out early in the playoffs. Guess what. Katy, SLC and SV have more than adequate talent, size and speed in the years they have done well. Your coaches are good but they're not that good that they'd win titles with only scrawny, slow white guys.

Before the season begins, you hear about the D1 players North Shore is gonna have. I'm not saying Katy/SLC/SV don't have them, but the season doesn't usually begin for those guys with a list of expected D1 signees. Of course there are exceptions to the rule (Katy 2007, 2009), but you know the concensus around the state is, "Team A has 7 D1 starters, they're gonna be dangerous."

[farmerfan]

I'm just saying that with as great of players as North Shore has, their coaching should put them over the edge, but they still don't excell the way you'd expect and the way they're projected to finish at the start of each season.

Pre-Season rankings are not a fair way to judge, look at where Shore is ranked at the end of the regular season compared to teams they have lost to in the playoffs. You will see that teams such as Westfield, Madison, Pearland, Hightower were all ranked right around where Shore was. I definitely do not recall Shore losing to teams that were not ranked period such as San Marcos. Now SV has done nothing to exceed expectations of where they are ranked compared to other teams in their region.

[farmerfan]

So what I'm gathering from this thread.

Everybody agrees that Trinity, SLC, and Katy make up the top 3.

After that there is a group of teams that have an argument for being in the top 5, Including.

SV
Allen
NS
Judson


If it was my top 5 it would look like this.

1. Katy
2. SLC
3. Trinity
4. SV
5. NS
6. Allen
7. LP

4 through 7 are all very close.

But from what I understand, if SV were to win a state title, would it jump there stock like it did Allen this year?

Another Katy fan attempting to elevate SV over teams who have a resume more impressive than SV.
No way that SV tumps Judson who since 2002 has a state title and 2 more championship game appearances and a semifinal apperance. Lufkin with a state title and 3 more semi final apperances and Allen with a title and 2 more semifinal apperances. The latter two also losing to Carroll and in some of those instances just being the luck of the draw that they drew them while SV did not in the semifinal round. Yes a title would go a long way to elevate SV but until they get that title they do not belong above the other prgrams. I know some Katy fans and notice Katy people I said SOME, want SV to be up there so it can give them some ammo against the others who say they dont play anybody but they simply are not a top 5 program. Best to never win a title, probably so but that does not put them in the top 5.

[farmerfan]

Also Bass, you want to bring rankings into this discussion so what does it say when SV who is ranked number 8 in the state gets beat in the semis by an unranked team who could not even win their district own district and lost 3 games in the regular season. Not only did they lose to this team but did so by the score of 41-19? This loss coming the year after they had a huge lead on SA Madison before losing it? Or is North Shore the only team we fault for "not living up to expectations"?;)

[mojo4life]

Another Katy fan attempting to elevate SV over teams who have a resume more impressive than SV.
No way that SV tumps Judson who since 2002 has a state title and 2 more championship game appearances and a semifinal apperance. Lufkin with a state title and 3 more semi final apperances and Allen with a title and 2 more semifinal apperances. The latter two also losing to Carroll and in some of those instances just being the luck of the draw that they drew them while SV did not in the semifinal round. Yes a title would go a long way to elevate SV but until they get that title they do not belong above the other prgrams. I know some Katy fans and notice Katy people I said SOME, want SV to be up there so it can give them some ammo against the others who say they dont play anybody but they simply are not a top 5 program. Best to never win a title, probably so but that does not put them in the top 5.

sounds logical....

[ftballin11]

Another Katy fan attempting to elevate SV over teams who have a resume more impressive than SV.
No way that SV tumps Judson who since 2002 has a state title and 2 more championship game appearances and a semifinal apperance. Lufkin with a state title and 3 more semi final apperances and Allen with a title and 2 more semifinal apperances. The latter two also losing to Carroll and in some of those instances just being the luck of the draw that they drew them while SV did not in the semifinal round. Yes a title would go a long way to elevate SV but until they get that title they do not belong above the other prgrams. I know some Katy fans and notice Katy people I said SOME, want SV to be up there so it can give them some ammo against the others who say they dont play anybody but they simply are not a top 5 program. Best to never win a title, probably so but that does not put them in the top 5.


Look at Judson and SV's head to head record.

The last 7 years, SV's season has ended with either Katy or SLC in 4 of them, and if it wasn't for a blown lead to Madison it would have been 5.


Most Katy fans put SV so high because we have played them 3 times and have great respect for what they can do. They are mirror images of each other.

The loss to SV was one of the few times I have seen Katy out coached. After that game I was talking to some fiends and I told him we were out Katyed. It was the only time I have ever seen Katy lose to a team less talented than they were in the playoffs.

[farmerfan]

Look at Judson and SV's head to head record.

The last 7 years, SV's season has ended with either Katy or SLC in 4 of them, and if it wasn't for a blown lead to Madison it would have been 5.


Most Katy fans put SV so high because we have played them 3 times and have great respect for what they can do. They are mirror images of each other.

The loss to SV was one of the few times I have seen Katy out coached. After that game I was talking to some fiends and I told him we were out Katyed. It was the only time I have ever seen Katy lose to a team less talented than they were in the playoffs.

Lufkin has had 3 of its seasons end by losing to the eventual state champion in Carroll.
Allen has had 3 of its season end by eventual state champion Carroll.
Funny you mention a blown lead though, I would think if Coach Hill and SV were so great that a lead such as they had against Madison would not have occurred. Its not like blowing a lead to Madison is like blowing a lead to a Carroll and I can't ever remember Allen blowing a lead like that in the playoffs. The Judson and SV head to head are great but we are aguring playoff results here and the playoff results here favor Judson, just as many state final apperances, one semifinal apperance and a state title to boot. That easily beats what SV has done in the same time frame.

[Bass]

Also Bass, you want to bring rankings into this discussion so what does it say when SV who is ranked number 8 in the state gets beat in the semis by an unranked team who could not even win their district own district and lost 3 games in the regular season. Not only did they lose to this team but did so by the score of 41-19? This loss coming the year after they had a huge lead on SA Madison before losing it? Or is North Shore the only team we fault for "not living up to expectations"?;)

No. Only North Shore. You know that.

[Bass]

Farmer, what's you top ten or so?

[ftballin11]

Lufkin has had 3 of its seasons end by losing to the eventual state champion in Carroll.
Allen has had 3 of its season end by eventual state champion Carroll.
Funny you mention a blown lead though, I would think if Coach Hill and SV were so great that a lead such as they had against Madison would not have occurred. Its not like blowing a lead to Madison is like blowing a lead to a Carroll and I can't ever remember Allen blowing a lead like that in the playoffs. The Judson and SV head to head are great but we are aguring playoff results here and the playoff results here favor Judson, just as many state final apperances, one semifinal apperance and a state title to boot. That easily beats what SV has done in the same time frame.

If you switched and made Judson a D2 team and SV the D1 in region 4. SV would have better results. I'm not debating Juson as a program. They are great and have great coaching. I just thin SV is better. Thats why SV beats them head to head.

[Owned05]

Farmer,

Feel free to add to this discussion when you get off your knees. So friggin' sick of the suckfest and the hard on you have for the DFW. They play good ball up there, no doubt, but if I have to read 'they wouldn't do well in the DFW' one more damn time I'm going to stab you in the neck with a knife.

North Shore vs Carroll should be interesting..

[ftballin11]

farmer,

feel free to add to this discussion when you get off your knees. So friggin' sick of the suckfest and the hard on you have for the dfw. They play good ball up there, no doubt, but if i have to read 'they wouldn't do well in the dfw' one more damn time i'm going to stab you in the neck with a knife.

North shore vs carroll should be interesting..


+1.

[SLC13]

So who would your top 5 be?
As everybody as said, we have a definite 3 in Carroll, Katy and Trinity. Who else occupies your top 5?

I would of course agree with the top 3, however after that I don't really don't think there is a definitive #4 or #5. Any of my next group of Allen, Judson, Lufkin, NS, and maybe Chill, can be argued for or against. What separates them from SV and the 3rd grouping is at least one 5-A championship during the 10 yr period.

SV would likely lead my next grouping that includes them, Hebron, Westlake, Plano, Mojo, Abilene and several others that have come close but not won anything this decade.

Like I said before, When/if SV gets the job done many of the doubters will change their opinions.

[farmerfan]

Farmer, what's you top ten or so?

Carroll
Katy
Trinity
Lufkin
Judson
Allen
North Shore
SV
Cedar Hill recently another title this year vaults them up this year

[farmerfan]

If you switched and made Judson a D2 team and SV the D1 in region 4. SV would have better results. I'm not debating Juson as a program. They are great and have great coaching. I just thin SV is better. Thats why SV beats them head to head.

Uh Oh, is a Katy fan using a divisional argument now in being weaker or stronger? Say it aint so Joe? Too bad Katy has had to play in Region 3 Division two the last two years, we all know that was a division that just ranked ahead of Montanas lowest classification in terms of toughness.

[Fleeman93]

Carroll
Katy
Trinity
Lufkin
Judson
Allen
North Shore
SV
Cedar Hill recently another title this year vaults them up this year


I'm curious about your thoughts on Cedar Hill. Of course they have the title but didn't they just get their first playoff win in 2006? That would mean their body of work consists of 3 years?

[farmerfan]

Farmer,

Feel free to add to this discussion when you get off your knees. So friggin' sick of the suckfest and the hard on you have for the DFW. They play good ball up there, no doubt, but if I have to read 'they wouldn't do well in the DFW' one more damn time I'm going to stab you in the neck with a knife.

North Shore vs Carroll should be interesting..

Hey *******, try to stab me in the neck and I'll yank that knife from your hands and and snap your neck in two. **********.
As for adding to the discussion, I have. We are comparing programs from different areas of the state, while Region 3 sucks compared to Region 1 and Houston football couldn't even sniff the Dallas areas jock it is better than San Antonio and Region 4. I am sorry you guys can't stand the fact that we have real teams and real programs up here and we play at such a high level you get sick of hearing about it, but the truth hurts. The results show what I am talking avbout. The resutls for the programs I am speaking of against SV are can't be denied. Its not our fault that SV while a nice program benefits from playing in a very weak region. Anybody taht would dispute that is ignorant. Then again some of you Katy fans have shown plenty of ignorance. Show me where Region 4 has done anything to be proud of or that they are at an elite level? Just do it and compare it to the teams up here and then I'll shut up and when you can compare it to the teams we have up here and prove I am wrong then Ill shut iup. Or just tell your mickey mouse teams to actually show up and beat the Dallas area teams and I am sure that will shut us up too, fact is, they can't do it becaue compared to the teams up here they all suck with the exception of Katy.

[farmerfan]

I'm curious about your thoughts on Cedar Hill. Of course they have the title but didn't they just get their first playoff win in 2006? That would mean their body of work consists of 3 years?

Notice it says recently, with add another title and then that would vault them up.

[farmerfan]

See there's that whole business about talent again, a card that SV, Katy and SLC play quite a bit. Just because they have a disproportionate number of black guys on their teams, they're so quick to claim that they're getting the job done with inferior talent and athleticism. Conversely, just because teams like NS and Lufkin have mostly black players, the assumption is they must have more speed and talent and underachieve when they go out early in the playoffs. Guess what. Katy, SLC and SV have more than adequate talent, size and speed in the years they have done well. Your coaches are good but they're not that good that they'd win titles with only scrawny, slow white guys.

The Katy fans at least admit how talented their 07 squad was and how talented their 09 team should be, there have been fans from other programs who refused to acknowledge that with some of their teams. Even when they sent over 10 kids to D1 schools they downplayed the schools they went to and still used the criteria of having higher standards or just working harder. Don't get me wrong hard work had a lot to do with it but to suggest it was all on determination and not relying on talent was a bit of a stretch IMO.
You do make a great point though. I have seen some very very talented HS football players come out of all three programs.

[TexasRed6x]

Carroll
Katy
Trinity
Lufkin
Judson
Allen
North Shore
SV
Cedar Hill recently another title this year vaults them up this year

I will not agree often with you but this looks good, except for Allen being 5th on the list. I would put NS before them just because in 2003 their state championship team was like one of the best teams the state has ever seen.

[CKE]

lol yes SV has an argument as a top 5 team....the 2 main things that has kept SV from winning a title is talent and luck...they have shown that they can beat a much more talented team than them game in and game out. To do it for a whole season is harder than most of the "o so godley metroplex area" know simply because of all the talent they have on all of there championship teams. The luck factor comes into play with who SV has had to play in the Semis and championship game come on now the two best tea,ms in the state in the past ten years have hands down been SLC and Katy. SV has already beat Katy once and lost by 3 the 2nd time.( yeah i know they got man handeled the last time but like I said look at the talent hard to win all year long when your best player went to a D-II college) Im very confedent in the fact that if Sv had gone D-1 and not had to play the 2 best teams in the state in the past ten years(notice I dont even put SV in the same class as SLC and Katy) then they would have a championship.....now to get of this point and not have Farmer crawl down my throat. SV's contending days are over they have been sine the class of 09 graduated. Peace out for another 6 months homies

[grayowl60]

Hey *******, try to stab me in the neck and I'll yank that knife from your hands and and snap your neck in two. **********.
As for adding to the discussion, I have. We are comparing programs from different areas of the state, while Region 3 sucks compared to Region 1 and Houston football couldn't even sniff the Dallas areas jock it is better than San Antonio and Region 4. I am sorry you guys can't stand the fact that we have real teams and real programs up here and we play at such a high level you get sick of hearing about it, but the truth hurts. The results show what I am talking avbout. The resutls for the programs I am speaking of against SV are can't be denied. Its not our fault that SV while a nice program benefits from playing in a very weak region. Anybody taht would dispute that is ignorant. Then again some of you Katy fans have shown plenty of ignorance. Show me where Region 4 has done anything to be proud of or that they are at an elite level? Just do it and compare it to the teams up here and then I'll shut up and when you can compare it to the teams we have up here and prove I am wrong then Ill shut iup. Or just tell your mickey mouse teams to actually show up and beat the Dallas area teams and I am sure that will shut us up too, fact is, they can't do it becaue compared to the teams up here they all suck with the exception of Katy.
:eek:...:D...;)

[farmerfan]

lol yes SV has an argument as a top 5 team....the 2 main things that has kept SV from winning a title is talent and luck...they have shown that they can beat a much more talented team than them game in and game out. To do it for a whole season is harder than most of the "o so godley metroplex area" know simply because of all the talent they have on all of there championship teams. The luck factor comes into play with who SV has had to play in the Semis and championship game come on now the two best tea,ms in the state in the past ten years have hands down been SLC and Katy. SV has already beat Katy once and lost by 3 the 2nd time.( yeah i know they got man handeled the last time but like I said look at the talent hard to win all year long when your best player went to a D-II college) Im very confedent in the fact that if Sv had gone D-1 and not had to play the 2 best teams in the state in the past ten years(notice I dont even put SV in the same class as SLC and Katy) then they would have a championship.....now to get of this point and not have Farmer crawl down my throat. SV's contending days are over they have been sine the class of 09 graduated. Peace out for another 6 months homies

Yeah cause the Oh So Godley metromess only wins with talent and nothing else. In fact every state championship team from the Metroplex has always been loaded with D1 talent.
What team would SV had beat had they gone D1 in just one of the past 8 years? People throw out Tyler Lee but forget that Tyler Lee team had a very good playoff run and beat some very good teams. You say you are confident if they had gone D1 they would have done such and such as if thats ok to say but by golly do not dare say take SV out of Region 4.
As for playing SLC, so has Lufkin and Allen in the past. Lufkin saw their season end 3x by Carroll and Allen had theirs end 4x by Carroll and another time by Lufkin. So SV does not have a monopoly on that. Lufkin has even beat Katy 2x in the time frame we are discussing. Allen has beat Trinity who has over taken Carroll as one of the states two best programs in the last 3-4 years. So without a title SV does not belong in the discussion over teams such as Judson, Lufkin, Allen or North Shore. They belong in a top 10 discussion but not top 5.

[NHB06]

Farmer,

Feel free to add to this discussion when you get off your knees. So friggin' sick of the suckfest and the hard on you have for the DFW. They play good ball up there, no doubt, but if I have to read 'they wouldn't do well in the DFW' one more damn time I'm going to stab you in the neck with a knife.

North Shore vs Carroll should be interesting..

Are you kidding me?? That type of comment is unwarranted.

[Maroondog]

When and if SV gets a STATE championship, then they can argue their case as a top 5 STATE program.

Until then, they are simply a very good program along with a lot of others.

If you want to call yourself a top 5 STATE program, you should have gotten it done in late December. All the district wins and playoffs are nice, but without at least one championship the argument has no real merit.

[CaneDadCat5]

MY OH MY! Look at the violence on this thread! Being from the inner city of Houston (Madison High), I am not used to this type of intimidation, degredation, and tyranny. I need to sell my User Name and move to a more civil neighborhood thread (Katy's vs SLC's which greatest team would beat the others all time greatest team). Its not even August and we are ready to stab each other in the neck! . DANG, I LOVE TEXAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SING WITH ME FELLAS - THE STARS AT NIGHT ARE BIG AND BRIGHT! DEEP IN THE HEART OF TEXAS! (CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP!)

[ftballin11]

When and if SV gets a STATE championship, then they can argue their case as a top 5 STATE program.

Until then, they are simply a very good program along with a lot of others.

If you want to call yourself a top 5 STATE program, you should have gotten it done in late December. All the district wins and playoffs are nice, but without at least one championship the argument has no real merit.

Even if they won state all we would hear about is how easy it was to get there in reg. 4 and the team from the DFW had to go through a gauntlet so they were banged up.

[ftballin11]

Uh Oh, is a Katy fan using a divisional argument now in being weaker or stronger? Say it aint so Joe? Too bad Katy has had to play in Region 3 Division two the last two years, we all know that was a division that just ranked ahead of Montanas lowest classification in terms of toughness.


Katy finishes the job though.

[Owned05]

Are you kidding me?? That type of comment is unwarranted.

Never seen Step Brothers I assume.

[alleneagle4]

And for how long has Allen's district been considered the toughest in the state? I understand last year, but it seems a lot of people now are acting like it's been the toughest district in the state for the past five seasons.


it pretty much has been one of the top two or three, if not THE top every year the past five years

Allen has always been ranked high the past five years, then you add in Plano Senior, or when Plano East was really good, and then Wylie. Its always been like that
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[cajun]

Winning state titles involves alot of luck, in my opinion...I've seen it.. I'm sure some here have seen it also....

If a program can put itself in position to win a state title every year they have to be considered a "Top" program (5, 6, 7 does it really matter?)

Notre Dame Fighting Irish football

11-National Titles
178 All-Americans
7 Heisman winners

Top 5 program now?

:Music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7csGhMQoQms

[alleneagle4]

Hey *******, try to stab me in the neck and I'll yank that knife from your hands and and snap your neck in two. **********.
As for adding to the discussion, I have. We are comparing programs from different areas of the state, while Region 3 sucks compared to Region 1 and Houston football couldn't even sniff the Dallas areas jock it is better than San Antonio and Region 4. I am sorry you guys can't stand the fact that we have real teams and real programs up here and we play at such a high level you get sick of hearing about it, but the truth hurts. The results show what I am talking avbout. The resutls for the programs I am speaking of against SV are can't be denied. Its not our fault that SV while a nice program benefits from playing in a very weak region. Anybody taht would dispute that is ignorant. Then again some of you Katy fans have shown plenty of ignorance. Show me where Region 4 has done anything to be proud of or that they are at an elite level? Just do it and compare it to the teams up here and then I'll shut up and when you can compare it to the teams we have up here and prove I am wrong then Ill shut iup. Or just tell your mickey mouse teams to actually show up and beat the Dallas area teams and I am sure that will shut us up too, fact is, they can't do it becaue compared to the teams up here they all suck with the exception of Katy.

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[Owned05]

Hey *******, try to stab me in the neck and I'll yank that knife from your hands and and snap your neck in two. **********.
As for adding to the discussion, I have. We are comparing programs from different areas of the state, while Region 3 sucks compared to Region 1 and Houston football couldn't even sniff the Dallas areas jock it is better than San Antonio and Region 4. I am sorry you guys can't stand the fact that we have real teams and real programs up here and we play at such a high level you get sick of hearing about it, but the truth hurts. The results show what I am talking avbout. The resutls for the programs I am speaking of against SV are can't be denied. Its not our fault that SV while a nice program benefits from playing in a very weak region. Anybody taht would dispute that is ignorant. Then again some of you Katy fans have shown plenty of ignorance. Show me where Region 4 has done anything to be proud of or that they are at an elite level? Just do it and compare it to the teams up here and then I'll shut up and when you can compare it to the teams we have up here and prove I am wrong then Ill shut iup. Or just tell your mickey mouse teams to actually show up and beat the Dallas area teams and I am sure that will shut us up too, fact is, they can't do it becaue compared to the teams up here they all suck with the exception of Katy.

Whoa. The neck stabbing thing was a line, so settle down, champ.

My post wasn't really in reference to SV as much as it was about the crush you have on the DFW, its apparent in seemingly every post you make regarding a Region 3 or 4 team. I just wonder what you'll do/say if North Shore puts a whooping on Carroll (unlikely) and bows out in the region 3 finals (likely). We'll see..

Like I said in my original post, theres a handful of teams that could be considered #5 on the list, all from outside of Region 1. However, I did note 4 DFW teams in the top 5 programs right now. Allen needs to put together another state title appearence to really solidify itself on the list IMO. I'm a big Allen fan, moreso then anyone else other then Katy.

I'll agree with you on one thing though. Region 4 is really lacking outside of 26-5A and Westlake. District 26 is one of the premier districts throughout the state though.

[alleneagle4]

Farmer,

Feel free to add to this discussion when you get off your knees. So friggin' sick of the suckfest and the hard on you have for the DFW. They play good ball up there, no doubt, but if I have to read 'they wouldn't do well in the DFW' one more damn time I'm going to stab you in the neck with a knife.

North Shore vs Carroll should be interesting..

wow.........
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[Owned05]

wow.........
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Aww, why did you edit this? Have some self confidence.

The whole prison thing..good one.

[alleneagle4]

Aww, why did you edit this? Have some self confidence.

The whole prison thing..good one.

just had to let some steam out........ :o

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[WOS87]

farmerfan has listed his top 9 in no particular order as SLC, Katy, ET, Lufkin, North Shore, Allen, CJ, Cedar Hill and SV.

In an earlier post I stated I thought SV should be considered a top 5 program since 2001 or 2002 (and that's only my opinion I understand but I am still entitled to it). I will concede that SLC, Katy, ET and Lufkin all belong up there in that specific window of time. The question is who would be #5?

Here are the facts:

Galena Park North Shore (94-7 since 2001)

2001 (12-1) Lost to Houston Madison in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (11-1) Lost to Aldine Eisenhower in the Regional Semifinals
2003 (15-0) State Champions
2004 (11-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2005 (11-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2006 (11-1) Lost to Pearland in the Area Round
2007 (14-1) Lost to Converse Judson in the Semifinals
2008 (9-1) Lost to FB Hightower in the Area Round

Allen (87-19 since 2001)

2001 (10-3) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (8-4) Lost to Lufkin in the Area Round
2003 (13-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Semifinals
2004 (9-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2005 (9-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2006 (13-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Semifinals
2007 (10-1) Lost to Rowlett in Bi-district
2008 (15-1) State Champs

Smithson Valley (98-16 since 2001)

2001 (14-1) Lost to Denton Ryan in the 4A State Finals
2002 (14-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the State Finals
2003 (10-2) Lost to Schertz-Clemens in the Area Round
2004 (13-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the State Finals
2005 (13-2) Lost to Katy in the Semifinals
2006 (9-2) Lost to San Marcos in Bi-District
2007 (12-2) Lost to San Antonio Madison in the Quarterfinals
2008 (13-2) Lost to Katy in the Semifinals

Converse Judson (77-26 since 2001)

2001 (9-3) Lost to San Antonio Taft in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (14-1) State Champs
2003 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2004 (13-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Semifinals
2005 (10-5) Lost to Euless Trinity in the State Finals
2006 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2007 (11-5) Lost to Euless Trinity in the State Finals
2008 (8-3) Lost to San Antonio Stevens in Bi-District

Cedar Hill (59-34 since 2001)

2001 (3-7) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2002 (2-8) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2003 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2004 (5-5) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2005 (7-4) Lost to Allen in Bi-District
2006 (16-0) State Champs
2007 (8-4) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2008 (12-2) Lost to Wylie in the Quarterfinals




I'll let you all draw your own conclusions. I would say there are arguments to be made for all the above except for Cedar Hill.

North Shore has the fewest losses AND a state title.
Allen lost to the eventual state champs 3 times AND has a state title.
Smithson Valley has the most wins, played in 3 state championship games AND lost to the eventual state champ 4 times
Converse Judson equaled SV in their 3 state championship appearances and actually won one of them
Cedar Hill has a state title and didn't qualify for the playoffs 4 of the 8 years in question

[svhorns]

When and if SV gets a STATE championship, then they can argue their case as a top 5 STATE program.

Until then, they are simply a very good program along with a lot of others.

If you want to call yourself a top 5 STATE program, you should have gotten it done in late December. All the district wins and playoffs are nice, but without at least one championship the argument has no real merit.

Please note that an SV fan did not start this thread... and we at SV understand that not being a "top 5" program mean absolutely nothing... I can agree with Farmers top 10 but all the hogwash and reasoning he had behind his ranking means absolutely nothing... Farmer we could hold our own in the DFW... we are 0-3 against DFW in state championship games... and in two of those games we gave SLC and Denton Ryan their toughest games of the year... meaning they had to play a team outside of DFW to meet their match...

[ktCarl]

I'll let you all draw your own conclusions. I would say there are arguments to be made for all the above except for Cedar Hill.

North Shore has the fewest losses AND a state title.
Allen lost to the eventual state champs 3 times AND has a state title.
Smithson Valley has the most wins, played in 3 state championship games AND lost to the eventual state champ 4 times
Converse Judson equaled SV in their 3 state championship appearances and actually won one of them
Cedar Hill has a state title and didn't qualify for the playoffs 4 of the 8 years in question

I guess I'll say North Shore. I would have said Judson but because of Lonny23 I don't want to give R4 any kudos. :D

[farmerfan]

farmerfan has listed his top 9 in no particular order as SLC, Katy, ET, Lufkin, North Shore, Allen, CJ, Cedar Hill and SV.

In an earlier post I stated I thought SV should be considered a top 5 program since 2001 or 2002 (and that's only my opinion I understand but I am still entitled to it). I will concede that SLC, Katy, ET and Lufkin all belong up there in that specific window of time. The question is who would be #5?

Here are the facts:

Galena Park North Shore (94-7 since 2001)

2001 (12-1) Lost to Houston Madison in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (11-1) Lost to Aldine Eisenhower in the Regional Semifinals
2003 (15-0) State Champions
2004 (11-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2005 (11-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2006 (11-1) Lost to Pearland in the Area Round
2007 (14-1) Lost to Converse Judson in the Semifinals
2008 (9-1) Lost to FB Hightower in the Area Round

Allen (87-19 since 2001)

2001 (10-3) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (8-4) Lost to Lufkin in the Area Round
2003 (13-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Semifinals
2004 (9-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2005 (9-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2006 (13-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Semifinals
2007 (10-1) Lost to Rowlett in Bi-district
2008 (15-1) State Champs

Smithson Valley (98-16 since 2001)

2001 (14-1) Lost to Denton Ryan in the 4A State Finals
2002 (14-2) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the State Finals
2003 (10-2) Lost to Schertz-Clemens in the Area Round
2004 (13-3) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the State Finals
2005 (13-2) Lost to Katy in the Semifinals
2006 (9-2) Lost to San Marcos in Bi-District
2007 (12-2) Lost to San Antonio Madison in the Quarterfinals
2008 (13-2) Lost to Katy in the Semifinals

Converse Judson (77-26 since 2001)

2001 (9-3) Lost to San Antonio Taft in the Regional Semifinals
2002 (14-1) State Champs
2003 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2004 (13-1) Lost to Spring Westfield in the Semifinals
2005 (10-5) Lost to Euless Trinity in the State Finals
2006 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2007 (11-5) Lost to Euless Trinity in the State Finals
2008 (8-3) Lost to San Antonio Stevens in Bi-District

Cedar Hill (59-34 since 2001)

2001 (3-7) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2002 (2-8) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2003 (6-4) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2004 (5-5) Did Not Qualify for the Playoffs
2005 (7-4) Lost to Allen in Bi-District
2006 (16-0) State Champs
2007 (8-4) Lost to Southlake Carroll in the Area Round
2008 (12-2) Lost to Wylie in the Quarterfinals




I'll let you all draw your own conclusions. I would say there are arguments to be made for all the above except for Cedar Hill.

North Shore has the fewest losses AND a state title.
Allen lost to the eventual state champs 3 times AND has a state title.
Smithson Valley has the most wins, played in 3 state championship games AND lost to the eventual state champ 4 times
Converse Judson equaled SV in their 3 state championship appearances and actually won one of them
Cedar Hill has a state title and didn't qualify for the playoffs 4 of the 8 years in question

Cedar Hill would be up there recently, especially if you were going to go based on the last 4 years. Heck the only reason people are putting ET up there is because of the last 4 years and in that same time frame Cedar Hill has put together a nice resume. I also said a title this year and no SV title would most definitely solidify them above the Rangers.
The thing about all the teams on my list is they all have titles. Every single one of them. Titles can not be disputed and until SV gets one they do not belong in any top 5 discussion.

[farmerfan]

When and if SV gets a STATE championship, then they can argue their case as a top 5 STATE program.

Until then, they are simply a very good program along with a lot of others.

If you want to call yourself a top 5 STATE program, you should have gotten it done in late December. All the district wins and playoffs are nice, but without at least one championship the argument has no real merit.

Titles do not mean anything at all. They are overrated and not a true way to judge how good a program or area is at all. The tougher thing to do is win a region not an actual state title;)

[farmerfan]

Even if they won state all we would hear about is how easy it was to get there in reg. 4 and the team from the DFW had to go through a gauntlet so they were banged up.

That's bull **** and you know it. If SV won a title they would get the kudos they deserve.
Allen has been one of the most hated programs in the entire area by fans up here for a long time and not a single hater made an excuse as to why they won their past title. When comparing the road to a title for a DFW area team just about every expert in the state not associated with the Katy Tigers will tell you that yes that team from the Metromess or Region 1 went through a gauntlet.

[farmerfan]

Whoa. The neck stabbing thing was a line, so settle down, champ.

My post wasn't really in reference to SV as much as it was about the crush you have on the DFW, its apparent in seemingly every post you make regarding a Region 3 or 4 team. I just wonder what you'll do/say if North Shore puts a whooping on Carroll (unlikely) and bows out in the region 3 finals (likely). We'll see..

Like I said in my original post, theres a handful of teams that could be considered #5 on the list, all from outside of Region 1. However, I did note 4 DFW teams in the top 5 programs right now. Allen needs to put together another state title appearence to really solidify itself on the list IMO. I'm a big Allen fan, moreso then anyone else other then Katy.

I'll agree with you on one thing though. Region 4 is really lacking outside of 26-5A and Westlake. District 26 is one of the premier districts throughout the state though.

Never heard that line before and saw no emoticon so I took it for what it was. If you say its a lien from a moive then I believe ya. I'll take back the neck snapping comment. I do not even consider Westlake to be a truly elite program anymore. They like Lewisville had a dang good team in 96, but they have alwas benefited from playing in region 4, when they were put in Region 2 they got drilled both years. It was around 98-99 or 99-00. They could not compete as well up here. 26-5A had a great year in 95. Probably the greatest year a single 5A district has ever had. Since then though no program has emerged to truly set itself up as a truly elite program in the state with the exception of Judson.

To address your crush comment on DFW. Like I said, those comments get brought up in discussions like these. Why? Because it proves a point. A point that you people in region 3 and 4 do not want to hear because it hurts. It hurts to realize how weak your regions are, especially region 4 compared to regions 1 and 2. The titles won by different programs back that up. We have many programs up here inregion 1 who can all claim titles. Some of those programs have fallen on hard times and others have remained steady. Some are on their way back up to prominence too. So while you hate the so called "crush" it is a relevant part of this discussion. People asked about SV and want to prove them over other programs but you have to take into account the full body of work. Its much easier when your playoff path includes SA Jay, San Benito, Los Fresnos, CC King and others instead of Trinity, Cedar Hill, Carroll and others. Sorry you hate it but have the programs down there start producing more and beating theteams up here when they get their chance and then the "bragging" will stop. But then again I do find it Ironic that a Katy fan gets sick of hearing about a so called love fest. I mean considering that we always have to hear about the work ethic at Katy and the superior coaching and the greatness of your past teams and how you guys just do things different than othes and so forth. Pot meet kettle:rolleyes:

[WOS87]

Cedar Hill would be up there recently, especially if you were going to go based on the last 4 years. Heck the only reason people are putting ET up there is because of the last 4 years and in that same time frame Cedar Hill has put together a nice resume. I also said a title this year and no SV title would most definitely solidify them above the Rangers.
The thing about all the teams on my list is they all have titles. Every single one of them. Titles can not be disputed and until SV gets one they do not belong in any top 5 discussion.

Dude, I like you a lot and you've helped me out in the past but you keep repeatedly contradicting yourself.

So okay, based on the last 4 years, and ONLY including teams that have a title, you have automatically narrowed the field down to 5 teams: Southlake Carroll, Katy, Euless Trinity, Allen, Cedar Hill (SLC, Katy and ET with 2 Titles each and Allen and CH with 1 Title each).

As I said earlier, the whole basis of this thread depends on the window of time at which you're looking.

I could just as easily retort by saying SLC shouldn't be up there either as they have neither won a title NOR made a State Finals in the past TWO years and 7 other teams have, only 3 of which are from the DFW area (Katy, Allen, Euless Trinity, Wylie, Hightower, Pflugerville and Converse Judson)....

[farmerfan]

Dude, I like you a lot and you've helped me out in the past but you keep repeatedly contradicting yourself.

So okay, based on the last 4 years, and ONLY including teams that have a title, you have automatically narrowed the field down to 5 teams: Southlake Carroll, Katy, Euless Trinity, Allen, Cedar Hill (SLC, Katy and ET with 2 Titles each and Allen and CH with 1 Title each).

As I said earlier, the whole basis of this thread depends on the window of time at which you're looking.

I could just as easily retort by saying SLC shouldn't be up there either as they have neither won a title NOR made a State Finals in the past TWO years and 7 other teams have, only 3 of which are from the DFW area (Katy, Allen, Euless Trinity, Wylie, Hightower, Pflugerville and Converse Judson)....

I have not contradicted myself at all. When I said CH, go back and read my post, I said here recently and with another title this year then they would belong in that discussion. The only window of time that would put SV in the discussion of being a top 5 program would be the two years they advanced to a state title game. That's it. I have said repeatedly in this thread that CH has not been around long enough to be in that discussion but with another title then that would definitely elevate them to that status.
You are basing too much of your criteria on wins and the deep runs SV has made in what is by far the weakest region in the entire state. A true top 5 program would have found a way to win a title in that time frame you would think. I mean Allen definitely just showed that.

[farmerfan]

But from what I understand, if SV were to win a state title, would it jump there stock like it did Allen this year?

Since I did not address this point earlier. Yes I think in many peoples eyes it would. It would show that another team from Region 4 could get the job done and give the program a huge boost as well as the region in that it would finally show that teams from taht part of the state can win it all. I would not hesitate to put them in a top 5 if they could get a state title.

[KT2000]

Based on what i saw against Katy.... No. Too slow... they have size but couldn't do anything with it.

I wouldn't base an opinion on a program based on what you saw in one game. The Rangers were good last year, but they've certainly had better teams. Smithson Valley is without a doubt one of the top five overall programs. They don't have the state championship trophies (most don't), but there are only two other programs in the state that have won as consistently as Smithson Valley this decade. I certainly would not have the Rangers any lower than 5th on a top program list. It can be argued that no program in the state does more with its available resources. This is a program that has been built from the ground up in a relatively short period of time.

[Fleeman93]

I wouldn't base an opinion on a program based on what you saw in one game. The Rangers were good last year, but they've certainly had better teams. Smithson Valley is without a doubt one of the top five overall programs. They don't have the state championship trophies (most don't), but there are only two other programs in the state that have won as consistently as Smithson Valley this decade. I certainly would not have the Rangers any lower than 5th on a top program list. It can be argued that no program in the state does more with its available resources. This is a program that has been built from the ground up in a relatively short period of time.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

Signed,
NHB06


More like one of the top 10 underachieving programs in the state of Texas- somewhere between Plano East (#1) and Allen (#10).

[Favpack]

First - I assume you're meaning current and not all time.

Katy
SLC
ET
Judson
NS
Allen, LP
SV

I say close, but not quite - plus you haven't had a dominant team lately. Of course, neither has Lufkin - so, LP is clearly on the bubble here.

Two finals is good, but not Top 5.

[bobcat83]

One thing mentioned regarding this past years team-
to slow....not really had pretty good speed.

H-Town said they had size???? That is what they didn't have and usually don't.Katy dwarfed them in size.
The year before they had 2 D1 offensive lineman but that was an exception.
The only D1 players from SV that have made an impact in college-I believe -as of late are:
Pawelek-Baylor
Sendejo-Rice
Anders-Alabama
all defense...
2 would be considered very undersized for their positions.
They won't have size again this year

[twcpfan1]

I wouldn't base an opinion on a program based on what you saw in one game. The Rangers were good last year, but they've certainly had better teams. Smithson Valley is without a doubt one of the top five overall programs. They don't have the state championship trophies (most don't), but there are only two other programs in the state that have won as consistently as Smithson Valley this decade. I certainly would not have the Rangers any lower than 5th on a top program list. It can be argued that no program in the state does more with its available resources. This is a program that has been built from the ground up in a relatively short period of time.

In your last 5 pre season rankings you've only had them in the top 5 once and that was 5 years ago. Here's where you have them the last 4 years.

2009 - 17
2008 - 18
2007 - 14
2006 - 11

I doubt they're a top 5 team to finish any of those years either. I'd say you'd probably find at least 6 or 7 teams who started and finished the season ranked higher on this site.

[KT2000]

SV had a huge and very talented team in 2005.

Everybody has different definitions of what consitutes a great program. Some of you are talking about championships and others about talent. For me, a great program is one who is consistently a winner and a factor in the playoffs. Smithson Valley's been there much more often than they haven't.

[KT2000]

In your last 5 pre season rankings you've only had them in the top 5 once and that was 5 years ago. Here's where you have them the last 4 years.

2009 - 17
2008 - 18
2007 - 14
2006 - 11

I doubt they're a top 5 team to finish any of those years either. I'd say you'd probably find at least 6 or 7 teams who started and finished the season ranked higher on this site.

They start lower because they usually graduate senior dominated classes. We always stop the rankings after Week 10 because there is no point in continuing through the playoffs. That isn't a good barometer to use.

[twcpfan1]

They start lower because they usually graduate senior dominated classes. We always stop the rankings after Week 10 because there is no point in continuing through the playoffs. That isn't a good barometer to use.

One can argue, neither is the playoffs if you only have to mow down San Antonio and Valley teams to get to Regionals.

[bowiedawgs01]

In 5A? It's close.

Katy
Trinity
Judson
----------
SLC
Allen
----------
North Shore
Smithson Valley
Lufkin
Westlake
etc.

[Favpack]

I was basing on this decade, with heavier weight toward the latter part of the decade - and it's largely based on wins, with the need for at least one title thrown, more weight for more titles.

If we're talking doing more with less, I would listen to SV being top 5.

[KT2000]

One can argue, neither is the playoffs if you only have to mow down San Antonio and Valley teams to get to Regionals.

The Valley game is almost always a gimme in the third round, but they've consistently been the best or no worse than second best in their region most years. That region has stood up well for the most part against the best that Region 3, and also what Regions 1 or 2 had to offer in the state title games.

Smithson Valley's been notoriously difficult to defeat since they started their run of success under Larry Hill. The 2002 game against Carroll and 2008 game against Katy were the exceptions and not the rule.

Region 1 has been the Achille's Heel in state title games, but that has been the case for everyone and not just Region 4. However, Region 4 has made a very strong account of itself in just about every title game they have been a part of. The best in Region 4 are generally on par with the best in the other regions.

Smithson Valley's proven its strength as a program against the best of the best this decade. If they were simply benefitting from easy runs, they would not be as competitive as they have been against the best programs.

[E-Vol-ution]

Please define "available resources"......replace with a team like Jesuit. Is Dallas Jesuit average with it's "available resources"? A goldfish can be top of the food chain in a certain fishbowl. Not trying to insult SV because I do respect their program, but the author was using program interchangeable with team in his initial use of the terms. Doing so......are they a perennial top five "team"? I'd easily say "most definitely not".I wouldn't base an opinion on a program based on what you saw in one game. The Rangers were good last year, but they've certainly had better teams. Smithson Valley is without a doubt one of the top five overall programs. They don't have the state championship trophies (most don't), but there are only two other programs in the state that have won as consistently as Smithson Valley this decade. I certainly would not have the Rangers any lower than 5th on a top program list. It can be argued that no program in the state does more with its available resources. This is a program that has been built from the ground up in a relatively short period of time.

[ftballin11]

in 5a? It's close.

Katy
trinity
slc
----------
sv
ns
allen
lufkin
----------
judson
westlake
etc.

fify

[twcpfan1]

The Valley game is almost always a gimme in the third round, but they've consistently been the best or no worse than second best in their region most years. That region has stood up well for the most part against the best that Region 3, and also what Regions 1 or 2 had to offer in the state title games.

Smithson Valley's been notoriously difficult to defeat since they started their run of success under Larry Hill. The 2002 game against Carroll and 2008 game against Katy were the exceptions and not the rule.

Region 1 has been the Achille's Heel in state title games, but that has been the case for everyone and not just Region 4. However, Region 4 has made a very strong account of itself in just about every title game they have been a part of. The best in Region 4 are generally on par with the best in the other regions.

Smithson Valley's proven its strength as a program against the best of the best this decade. If they were simply benefitting from easy runs, they would not be as competitive as they have been against the best programs.

They did well against SLC in 04. So all you say applies to that year. Let's see what they've done since.

05 - Lost to Katy who got dominated by SLC
06 - Out 1st rd to San Marcos
07 - Lost to SA Madison in R4 final who get it handed to them by Katy a week later
08 - You and I were there. That was ugly.

To say that the best in R4 is on par with the best out of the other 3 regions is a hard sell. Besides, I think Judson probably has a decent argument if they were to claim that particular distinction.

[KT2000]

Please define "available resources"......replace with a team like Jesuit. Is Dallas Jesuit average with it's "available resources"? A goldfish can be top of the food chain in a certain fishbowl. Not trying to insult SV because I do respect their program, but the author was using program interchangeable with team in his initial use of the terms. Doing so......are they a perennial top five "team"? I'd easily say "most definitely not".

I'm going with what's in caps in the post title. And what constitutes a perennial top five "team"? Talent? If so, there are lots of those. There are nowhere near as many programs.

Since the schedule strength debate is alive and well, as always, I will restate what I said above. The best in Region 4 consistently have proven to be on par with the best from 1, 2, or 3. Of course, some regions are more balanced from top to bottom than others but that is for the isolated "which region is best" debate. When you are making a comparison between the best teams in each region, the only accurate way to do it is by looking at how the best from each fared against one another late in the playoffs since that is usually the only time when the best from each will match-up.

[twcpfan1]

Just randomly pick a program who you know most if not all people would say are not a top 5 program.

Take Spring Westfield.

If SV and SW would have played once a year since 2002, who would win more games.

Then do the same with teams that a lot of people might plug in there as a top 5 team. Lufkin, Allen, NS, Permian, Plano, Cedar Hill and Skyline.

[Maroondog]

Just randomly pick a program who you know most if not all people would say are not a top 5 program.

Take Spring Westfield.

If SV and SW would have played once a year since 2002, who would win more games.

Then do the same with teams that a lot of people might plug in there as a top 5 team. Lufkin, Allen, NS, Permian, Plano, Cedar Hill and Skyline.

This is just random speculation. You can only judge by what has actually occurred.

[toonman]

I want your opinion.

I think this team along with Katy gets the most out of the players given to them year in year out. Yes they play in a weak region 4 but I would probably put them at #4 for behind Trinity for best current programs.

Whats your thoughts.

How many State Championships does SV have - I think you have you answer.

[KT2000]

They did well against SLC in 04. So all you say applies to that year. Let's see what they've done since.

05 - Lost to Katy who got dominated by SLC
06 - Out 1st rd to San Marcos
07 - Lost to SA Madison in R4 final who get it handed to them by Katy a week later
08 - You and I were there. That was ugly.

To say that the best in R4 is on par with the best out of the other 3 regions is a hard sell. Besides, I think Judson probably has a decent argument if they were to claim that particular distinction.

Football is a funny game. Katy mostly likely would not have beaten SV as badly as they beat Madison in 07. This is a game of match-ups and Madison's aggressive style, with an injury depleted team no less, played directly into Katy's hands.

Last year was a down year for R4 overall. This year looks better on paper.

Carroll beat Katy relatively comfortably in 05, but that Katy team was capable of putting up a better fight than they did that day (as they showed for a brief glimpse when they got into the game in the third quarter). Katy played a poor game overall and was punished for it by a superior team. SV gave Katy all it could handle in the second half of the semi-final once they started playing to their strengths. SV was the most impressive team I saw that year from a physical point of view other than Carroll.

Judson, Westlake and Smithson Valley have all underscored Region 4's ability to produce quality teams this decade. Those three are on par with anything the rest of the state's produced.

[ftballin11]

Just randomly pick a program who you know most if not all people would say are not a top 5 program.

Take Spring Westfield.

If SV and SW would have played once a year since 2002, who would win more games.

Then do the same with teams that a lot of people might plug in there as a top 5 team. Lufkin, Allen, NS, Permian, Plano, Cedar Hill and Skyline.

The only team I would give the edge to would be Lufkin.

[E-Vol-ution]

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by E-Vol-ution http://www.5atexasfootball.com/forum/vB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.5atexasfootball.com/forum/vB/showthread.php?p=1227915#post1227915)
no disrespect, but no way SV is top five in Texas.........
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The most accurate thing to say is the program itself may indeed be top five in Texas based on consistency but SV as the team would only be top five in Region 4. The author implied a different standard lacking specifics in making this forum from his initial assertion that SV was a top five Texas team.
I'm going with what's in caps in the post title. And what constitutes a perennial top five "team"? Talent? If so, there are lots of those. There are nowhere near as many programs.

Since the schedule strength debate is alive and well, as always, I will restate what I said above. The best in Region 4 consistently have proven to be on par with the best from 1, 2, or 3. Of course, some regions are more balanced from top to bottom than others but that is for the isolated "which region is best" debate. When you are making a comparison between the best teams in each region, the only accurate way to do it is by looking at how the best from each fared against one another late in the playoffs since that is usually the only time when the best from each will match-up.

[ftballin11]

How many State Championships does SV have - I think you have you answer.


Tyler Lee has one this Decade. Are they a better program than SV?:rolleyes:


Ok just to clarify things. I was refering to the decade.

[SV61]

Just randomly pick a program who you know most if not all people would say are not a top 5 program.

Take Spring Westfield.

If SV and SW would have played once a year since 2002, who would win more games.

Then do the same with teams that a lot of people might plug in there as a top 5 team. Lufkin, Allen, NS, Permian, Plano, Cedar Hill and Skyline.

I don't know. How bout we take Judson as our suggested foe?

This one I believe will HELP with any SV argument, and WHERE they play (or who).

As long as SV has Larry Hill as it's Head Coach, SV will have one of the top programs in the great state of Texas, regardless of classification, year in, and year out.

It won't matter if they move SV to Region II, either. Each Region has it's weaker areas. DFW folks often overlook the fact, that El Paso schools have to play somebody, and these El Paso schools GENERALLY aren't all that in American Football. Back to the point that many miss. If you think that Coach Hill doesn't get better each time he plays you, then you don't watch enough of Coach Hill. Including the last Katy game, Only Coaches Dodge, Joseph, and Streety have beaten Coach Hill Consectively. As a matter of fact, Only these Three, plus Coach Wentzel of SA Reagan, have beaten Coach Hill twice! The point is, if SV were given the opp to play in a DFW district, I think a lot of DFW elitists would be surprised. When SV first entered 5A, people all talked about how easy their district was, and how it would not prepare them for 5A Playoffs.

They made it to State.

State Championships no doubt have weight in our discussion also. However, do we really want to take the notion (as some have in this discussion), that a 15 or 30 year old State Championship, is more relevant, than a more recent trip to the State Finals?

I feel for SV to be legit in this type of discussion, you need some hardware. I also believe however, that the consistency of the program can NOT be dismissed as a product of a weak Region.

[KT2000]

Please define "available resources"

They draw from a relatively isolated talent pool (IE, not in or very near to a major metro area). It is the kind of area that would usually only support a 4A program at most. As a 5A school, it is a unique situation in a suburban sprawl dominated landscape. The fact they are able to put together a perennially competitive team every season is pretty remarkable in my opinion.

[twcpfan1]

I don't know. How bout we take Judson as our suggested foe?

This one I believe will HELP with any SV argument, and WHERE they play (or who).

As long as SV has Larry Hill as it's Head Coach, SV will have one of the top programs in the great state of Texas, regardless of classification, year in, and year out.

It won't matter if they move SV to Region II, either. Each Region has it's weaker areas. DFW folks often overlook the fact, that El Paso schools have to play somebody, and these El Paso schools GENERALLY aren't all that in American Football. Back to the point that many miss. If you think that Coach Hill doesn't get better each time he plays you, then you don't watch enough of Coach Hill. Including the last Katy game, Only Coaches Dodge, Joseph, and Streety have beaten Coach Hill Consectively. As a matter of fact, Only these Three, plus Coach Wentzel of SA Reagan, have beaten Coach Hill twice! The point is, if SV were given the opp to play in a DFW district, I think a lot of DFW elitists would be surprised. When SV first entered 5A, people all talked about how easy their district was, and how it would not prepare them for 5A Playoffs.

They made it to State.

State Championships no doubt have weight in our discussion also. However, do we really want to take the notion (as some have in this discussion), that a 15 or 30 year old State Championship, is more relevant, than a more recent trip to the State Finals?

I feel for SV to be legit in this type of discussion, you need some hardware. I also believe however, that the consistency of the program can NOT be dismissed as a product of a weak Region.

Agree with all of that. But 8-11 is a very respectable spot for anybody who has not won state. The fact that SV is in the 8-11 conversation is a testament to the strength and consistency of that program. Top 5 however would be tough to sell. Too many schools have won championships or played in the state game in the last decade for them to break into that group.

[cajun]

I'm still trying to figure out what makes a team a "Top Program"

"one" state title evidently...:cool:

[ftballin11]

"one" state title evidently...:cool:


I know, it seems like a state title is all that matters dang.

[twcpfan1]

They draw from a relatively isolated talent pool (IE, not in or very near to a major metro area). It is the kind of area that would usually only support a 4A program at most. As a 5A school, it is a unique situation in a suburban sprawl dominated landscape. The fact they are able to put together a perennially competitive team every season is pretty remarkable in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, are SV in a one high school, school district?

[KT2000]

OK...I have a different question. WHO are the top 5 programs in Texas? And WHY?

In 5A, my current standard bearers are...

Southlake Carroll, Katy, Euless Trinity, Converse Judson, Smithson Valley

Westlake, North Shore and Lufkin off the bench.

Carroll, Katy and Trinity have multiple state championships this decade. They've got the big hardware to match their annual win totals. Everybody's been anxious to pronounce Judson dead this decade, but they keep popping up in state championship games. They won it in 2002 with strong appearances in 2005 and 2007 as well. Smithson Valley's been a model of consistency all decade and are eclipsed by only Katy and Southlake Carroll in terms of wins.

[KT2000]

Out of curiosity, are SV in a one high school, school district?

No, part of Comal ISD and a new HS in the area (Canyon Lake), and I'm not really sure what you would have called it before. I would say the equivalent was basically that of a one school town. Smithson Valley post addresses can read as one of three towns (Bulverde, Spring Branch, Canyon Lake).

[twcpfan1]

OK...I have a different question. WHO are the top 5 programs in Texas? And WHY?

SLC - self explanatory
Katy - self explanatory
Trinity - 2 titles and respectable playoff runs
Judson - consistently plays well when it matters
Lufkin / NS - 1 title each this decade. Not necessarily wealthy school districts. The true overachievers IMO.

[ftballin11]

SLC - self explanatory
Katy - self explanatory
Trinity - 2 titles and respectable playoff runs
Judson - consistently plays well when it matters
Lufkin / NS - 1 title each this decade. Not necessarily wealthy school districts. The true overachievers IMO.

Depends what kind of wealth. They certainly arent short on talent. I honestly consider both NS and Lufkin underachievers.

The the over achievers are Judson and SV.

[KT2000]

Lufkin / NS - 1 title each this decade. Not necessarily wealthy school districts. The true overachievers IMO.

Lufkin and NS have resources on par with or above most suburban programs.

[SV61]

No, part of Comal ISD and a new HS in the area (Canyon Lake), and I'm not really sure what you would have called it before. I would say the equivalent was basically that of a one school town. Smithson Valley post addresses can read as one of three towns (Bulverde, Spring Branch, Canyon Lake).


New Braunfels Canyon was the first High School, to service the Comal ISD. Folks going to the SV High School area ahead of me, were bussed almost 40 miles, to attend Canyon High School, in New Braunfels.

THEN, SV opened in 1976, as a 2-A school. Our drive was cut in half, only 20miles!

:D

The area has experienced pretty serious growth in the years since. Canyon Lake High School actually services primarily the North side of Canyon Lake.

There really is not ONE "town" to speak of. There are settlements of Bulverde, Spring Branch, Canyon Lake, Startzville, and Sattler.

[bobcat83]

No, part of Comal ISD and a new HS in the area (Canyon Lake), and I'm not really sure what you would have called it before. I would say the equivalent was basically that of a one school town. Smithson Valley post addresses can read as one of three towns (Bulverde, Spring Branch, Canyon Lake).

Comal ISD-Includes SV,New Braunfels Canyon(4A), Canyon Lake(3A going into it's second varsity season) New Braunfels is in it's own School district

SV borders NEISD- Reagan and Johnson to it's south on HWY 281
enrollment about 2300-

[twcpfan1]

Lufkin and NS have resources on par with or above most suburban programs.

Historically, most suburban programs have nowhere near the success of NS and Lufkin.

What about SV? I'm thinking being a little off the beaten track like SV and Lufkin increases the community focus on HS Sports. I would not necessarily call it a drawback.

[svhorns]

No, part of Comal ISD and a new HS in the area (Canyon Lake), and I'm not really sure what you would have called it before. I would say the equivalent was basically that of a one school town. Smithson Valley post addresses can read as one of three towns (Bulverde, Spring Branch, Canyon Lake).

Wow someone has been doing some homework... not too many people outside of the San Antonio area know about the SV area... impressive.

[SV61]

Historically, most suburban programs have nowhere near the success of NS and Lufkin.

What about SV? I'm thinking being a little off the beaten track like SV and Lufkin increases the community focus on HS Sports. I would not necessarily call it a drawback.

SV is not really like a Lufkin, Boerne, Kerrville, (towns between 8000 and 18000 census) or towns of that size. SV's district is spread out, and has lots of rural areas, but also small, SMALL, settlements.

If the district weren't so big geographically, I could see multiple 1 and 2 A schools in it.

[LPack007]

SV is not really like a Lufkin, Boerne, Kerrville, (towns between 8000 and 18000 census) or towns of that size. SV's district is spread out, and has lots of rural areas, but also small, SMALL, settlements.

If the district weren't so big geographically, I could see multiple 1 and 2 A schools in it.

35,000!! lmao.

[twcpfan1]

Depends what kind of wealth. They certainly arent short on talent. I honestly consider both NS and Lufkin underachievers.

The the over achievers are Judson and SV.

I find it pretty difficult to accept that Lufkin and NS have titles and yet are underachievers compared to SV who has none.

Also, enough already about the assumption that SV does not have a lot of talent. They have plenty.

[E-Vol-ution]

Really.........scary thought. This isn't a "Black" thing right? :rolleyes:Depends what kind of wealth. They certainly arent short on talent. I honestly consider both NS and Lufkin underachievers.

The the over achievers are Judson and SV.

[SV61]

35,000!! lmao.

Lufkin is an exception in this day and age. One BIG school in a town that size. Boerne, by contrast, claims that they only have 6100 people in their town. Yet, when the Old Boerne High School is revamped (they recently opened Robert Champion High School, a 4A school), the story is that Boerne will have a 4A AND a 3A High School.

In comparison, Kerrville has almost 20,000 and is a SMALL 4A school??

:confused:


Again, Smithson Valley has no core "City", like a Lufkin or the other examples I used.

[farmerfan]

They start lower because they usually graduate senior dominated classes. We always stop the rankings after Week 10 because there is no point in continuing through the playoffs. That isn't a good barometer to use.

So compared to others in their region they never overachieve in the state based on their rankings but they too have underachieved a time or two. I know that there are a few Katy fans out there(njot you) who love to use your rankings so I just thought I would throw that out there

[SV61]

I find it pretty difficult to accept that Lufkin and NS have titles and yet are underachievers compared to SV who has none.

Also, enough already about the assumption that SV does not have a lot of talent. They have plenty.


I LOLed, when DaDa referred to the SV receiver last year, as a Giraffe.

[twcpfan1]

Really.........scary thought. This isn't a "Black" thing right? :rolleyes:

Refer to Post 95

[twcpfan1]

I LOLed, when DaDa referred to the SV receiver last year, as a Giraffe.

I saw those bald guys at Tully in 05. They looked plenty athletic and big :D

[farmerfan]

The Valley game is almost always a gimme in the third round, but they've consistently been the best or no worse than second best in their region most years. That region has stood up well for the most part against the best that Region 3, and also what Regions 1 or 2 had to offer in the state title games.

Smithson Valley's been notoriously difficult to defeat since they started their run of success under Larry Hill. The 2002 game against Carroll and 2008 game against Katy were the exceptions and not the rule.

Region 1 has been the Achille's Heel in state title games, but that has been the case for everyone and not just Region 4. However, Region 4 has made a very strong account of itself in just about every title game they have been a part of. The best in Region 4 are generally on par with the best in the other regions.

Smithson Valley's proven its strength as a program against the best of the best this decade. If they were simply benefitting from easy runs, they would not be as competitive as they have been against the best programs.

Oh have they?
SV is 0-2 against the best that Region 1 has to offer losing by 31 and 3
Judson is 5-6 on the field against the best these regions have to offer losing games by 14, 2, 24, 3, 14 and 3
Taft is 0-1 - 1 point loss to Mesquite at Alamo Stadium
Roosevelt 1-0 great win for region 4
Westlake is 1-4 losing all 4 games by double figures
SA MacArthur is 0-1 most lopsided loss in title game history
That right there is a record of 7-14 with 5 of those wins coming by one program Judson and the other two coming in 95 and 96. Since 96 though region 4 only has 1 win in title games and that came when Judson beat Midland High in 02.
As for the best programs that SV has gone up against(Carroll and Katy), they are 1-2 agaisnt Katy and 0-2 against Carroll with an average loss of 15 points. They have two 3 point losses and 2 losses by 22+. So I do not think the norm for SV against those "elite" programs is keeping it close. It looks like on a they have kept it close as many times as they have not.

[farmerfan]

I wouldn't base an opinion on a program based on what you saw in one game. The Rangers were good last year, but they've certainly had better teams. Smithson Valley is without a doubt one of the top five overall programs. They don't have the state championship trophies (most don't), but there are only two other programs in the state that have won as consistently as Smithson Valley this decade. I certainly would not have the Rangers any lower than 5th on a top program list. It can be argued that no program in the state does more with its available resources. This is a program that has been built from the ground up in a relatively short period of time.

It can be argued that against the competition they play in region 4 that yes they do plenty with their given resources but not more. Since when has the SA area been known as a recruiting hotbed? I believe in 2007 alone they only sent 10 kids to a D1 school. So lets not act like they are constantly going up against these talented teams night in and night out.

[farmerfan]

Describe "top program"
If it's based on # of titles, there are very few "Top Programs" right now.

So then why are Katy, Carroll and Trinity listed at the top of most everybody's list?

[SV61]

Oh have they?
SV is 0-2 against the best that Region 1 has to offer losing by 31 and 3
Judson is 5-6 on the field against the best these regions have to offer losing games by 14, 2, 24, 3, 14 and 3
Taft is 0-1 - 1 point loss to Mesquite at Alamo Stadium
Roosevelt 1-0 great win for region 4
Westlake is 1-4 losing all 4 games by double figures
SA MacArthur is 0-1 most lopsided loss in title game history
That right there is a record of 7-14 with 5 of those wins coming by one program Judson and the other two coming in 95 and 96. Since 96 though region 4 only has 1 win in title games and that came when Judson beat Midland High in 02.
As for the best programs that SV has gone up against(Carroll and Katy), they are 1-2 agaisnt Katy and 0-2 against Carroll with an average loss of 15 points. They have two 3 point losses and 2 losses by 22+. So I do not think the norm for SV against those "elite" programs is keeping it close. It looks like on a they have kept it close as many times as they have not.

Might use the "rest of the story" phrase on that one.

If I recall, Mac DID make the finals, however...........

Mac got beat in the Semis. They had already turned in there equipment, and were done for the year, when MID WEEK (I want to say Wednesday), they were informed that their opponent in the previous week, had used an ineligible player. SO, they got to play in the State Championship game, on essentially one days preperation. It was a foregone conclusion they were going to get beat. It was just by how much.

[farmerfan]

Tyler Lee has one this Decade. Are they a better program than SV?:rolleyes:


Ok just to clarify things. I was refering to the decade.

From 2000-2004 yes they clearly were. Tyler Lee has dropped on hard times here of late but what if they rebound with a nice playoff run this year or surprise all and win another title?

[farmerfan]

So Allen only became a top "Program" this season?

I'm still trying to figure out what makes a team a "Top Program"

Why is it that Katy is ranked at the top of just about every list for being the best program in Texas over the course of the past decade?

[farmerfan]

I don't know. How bout we take Judson as our suggested foe?

This one I believe will HELP with any SV argument, and WHERE they play (or who).

As long as SV has Larry Hill as it's Head Coach, SV will have one of the top programs in the great state of Texas, regardless of classification, year in, and year out.

It won't matter if they move SV to Region II, either. Each Region has it's weaker areas. DFW folks often overlook the fact, that El Paso schools have to play somebody, and these El Paso schools GENERALLY aren't all that in American Football. Back to the point that many miss. If you think that Coach Hill doesn't get better each time he plays you, then you don't watch enough of Coach Hill. Including the last Katy game, Only Coaches Dodge, Joseph, and Streety have beaten Coach Hill Consectively. As a matter of fact, Only these Three, plus Coach Wentzel of SA Reagan, have beaten Coach Hill twice! The point is, if SV were given the opp to play in a DFW district, I think a lot of DFW elitists would be surprised. When SV first entered 5A, people all talked about how easy their district was, and how it would not prepare them for 5A Playoffs.

They made it to State.

State Championships no doubt have weight in our discussion also. However, do we really want to take the notion (as some have in this discussion), that a 15 or 30 year old State Championship, is more relevant, than a more recent trip to the State Finals?

I feel for SV to be legit in this type of discussion, you need some hardware. I also believe however, that the consistency of the program can NOT be dismissed as a product of a weak Region.

When that region has a losing record in the playoffs outside of regional play then yes you can attribute that to playing in a weaker region.

[Slim-Rob]

I would put Judson, Trinity, SLC, Katy in the Top 5 programs for sure. The 5th I'm not really too sure of, but the 4 I listed (in no particular order) are constantly in the mix. Yes in the past 6 years since our last title, Judson has struggled, but still up there.

Judson has not had a season below .500 since 1976

From 1977-98 our record was 254-39-5. Since 1999 Judson has a record of 92-32. So yeah, we have struggled a little lately :laugh

[SLC13]

oh have they?
Sv is 0-2 against the best that region 1 has to offer losing by 31 and 3
judson is 5-6 on the field against the best these regions have to offer losing games by 14, 2, 24, 3, 14 and 3
taft is 0-1 - 1 point loss to mesquite at alamo stadium
roosevelt 1-0 great win for region 4
westlake is 1-4 losing all 4 games by double figures
sa macarthur is 0-1 most lopsided loss in title game history
that right there is a record of 7-14 with 5 of those wins coming by one program judson and the other two coming in 95 and 96. since 96 though region 4 only has 1 win in title games and that came when judson was handed an eary x-mas present from midland high in 02. as for the best programs that sv has gone up against(carroll and katy), they are 1-2 agaisnt katy and 0-2 against carroll with an average loss of 15 points. They have two 3 point losses and 2 losses by 22+. So i do not think the norm for sv against those "elite" programs is keeping it close. It looks like on a they have kept it close as many times as they have not.

fify

[farmerfan]

Might use the "rest of the story" phrase on that one.

If I recall, Mac DID make the finals, however...........

Mac got beat in the Semis. They had already turned in there equipment, and were done for the year, when MID WEEK (I want to say Wednesday), they were informed that their opponent in the previous week, had used an ineligible player. SO, they got to play in the State Championship game, on essentially one days preperation. It was a foregone conclusion they were going to get beat. It was just by how much.

Yeah Mac had little preparation for Midland Lee since htye found out the day before the game. But KT said generally speaking the best from region 4 have competed well with the best from thsi region.
When that has not been the case.

[SV61]

When that region has a losing record in the playoffs outside of regional play then yes you can attribute that to playing in a weaker region.

My point is, I believe the consistency would STILL be there, regardless of Region. 26-5A is a pretty competitve district. Schools outside of 26-5 such as Taft, O'Connor, East Central, and Soutwest are also up and comin.

However, let's look at it this way. What IF SV were in Region 1, and had the same success they now enjoy. What if they STILL had not won a State Championship? Would the thought process be any different??

[farmerfan]

My point is, I believe the consistency would STILL be there, regardless of Region. 26-5A is a pretty competitve district. Schools outside of 26-5 such as Taft, O'Connor, East Central, and Soutwest are also up and comin.

However, let's look at it this way. What IF SV were in Region 1, and had the same success they now enjoy. What if they STILL had not won a State Championship? Would the thought process be any different??

Against the teams that we have already listed then no they would still not be up there without a state title.

As for district 26 yes you are right, it is a competitive district far and away the best in its region.

[KT2000]

It can be argued that against the competition they play in region 4 that yes they do plenty with their given resources but not more. Since when has the SA area been known as a recruiting hotbed? I believe in 2007 alone they only sent 10 kids to a D1 school. So lets not act like they are constantly going up against these talented teams night in and night out.

You DFW homers should all make your team schedules your avatars. East Texas has the Bible Beaters and DFW has the Schedule Beaters. :notworthy

I'm not talking about other programs, but what SV does for itself. They fulfill their potential (Dodgism) more times than not, and that is more than most programs can say about themselves.

[KT2000]

From 2000-2004 yes they clearly were. Tyler Lee has dropped on hard times here of late but what if they rebound with a nice playoff run this year or surprise all and win another title?

Lufkin might find themselves in the same position if they aren't careful. I never expected Lee would fall off as much as they have since winning state. They were consistently very good before they won it. It's always interesting to watch programs once they either get to state or win state for the first time.

[farmerfan]

You DFW homers should all make your team schedules your avatars. East Texas has the Bible Beaters and DFW has the Schedule Beaters. :notworthy

I'm not talking about other programs, but what SV does for itself. They fulfill their potential (Dodgism) more times than not, and that is more than most programs can say about themselves.

You are saying for what SV has to work with as if they don't have squat to work with. For the teams they play on a regular basis they have just as much talent and who knows maybe more than the teams they are lined up againt in their district and region. But its not like they have done what they have done in a region "loaded with D1 talent" an argument you Katy homers love to use to justify yours and your lover Carroll's success as being greater than that of Genghis Khan and his conquest :D:cool:

As for us schedule beaters, yes we are proud of the fact that we have numerous programs up here that have shown they know how to get the job done and how we are not loaded up with the same ole programs on an annual basis. You all should tell the teams down there to try that sometime. It goes a long way in making your programs better and bringing home more titles to the programs in your area. ;)

[farmerfan]

Lufkin might find themselves in the same position if they aren't careful. I never expected Lee would fall off as much as they have since winning state. They were consistently very good before they won it. It's always interesting to watch programs once they either get to state or win state for the first time.

Lufkin could or they could rebound nicely and put together a nice run this year and would have everyone asking is Lufkin back? They are a dark horse for a reason. If they were in region 4 over region 2 I wonder how you and your bros would have had them ranked and viewed them this year.
What if Katy has a few seasons of 1st-2nd round exits?
I know you remember that Trinity has 2 1st round exits this decade as well. Granted they were to Arlington Lamar when the Vikes were still a strong program but they are first round exits nonetheless

[svhorns]

I find it pretty difficult to accept that Lufkin and NS have titles and yet are underachievers compared to SV who has none.

Also, enough already about the assumption that SV does not have a lot of talent. They have plenty.

You really have no clue... and it's obvious. Come back to me when you can tell me how many d-1 players we've had since 1993. If you can't answer that question I'd suggest you stop acting like you know anything about the SV program.

[svhorns]

You are saying for what SV has to work with as if they don't have squat to work with. For the teams they play on a regular basis they have just as much talent and who knows maybe more than the teams they are lined up againt in their district and region. But its not like they have done what they have done in a region "loaded with D1 talent" an argument you Katy homers love to use to justify yours and your lover Carroll's success as being greater than that of Genghis Khan and his conquest :D:cool:

As for us schedule beaters, yes we are proud of the fact that we have numerous programs up here that have shown they know how to get the job done and how we are not loaded up with the same ole programs on an annual basis. You all should tell the teams down there to try that sometime. It goes a long way in making your programs better and bringing home more titles to the programs in your area. ;)

Again like twcpfan you have no clue what the hell you're talking about. Roosevelt, Madison, MacArthur have the better talent this year... and as far as the region goes... P-ville, Westlake, Austin Bowie.... will also have better talent than us this year. If you can't tell me how many d-1 players SV has had since 1993 I'd suggest you stop making off the wall guesses like that.

[E-Vol-ution]

We are talking about high school players.......D1 talent does not translate into high school winners.Again like twcpfan you have no clue what the hell you're talking about. Roosevelt, Madison, MacArthur have the better talent this year... and as far as the region goes... P-ville, Westlake, Austin Bowie.... will also have better talent than us this year. If you can't tell me how many d-1 players SV has had since 1993 I'd suggest you stop making off the wall guesses like that.

[svhorns]

We are talking about high school players.......D1 talent does not translate into high school winners.

Well you don't say sherlock... I wouldn't have ever figured that out considering we usually are on the short end of the stick when it comes to d-1 talent...

[Maroondog]

Looks like the voters in the poll aren't buying the SV top 5 angle.

[SV61]

And THAT'S okay.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again:

There are about 95% of the 5A football teams in this state, that would KILL to have a program like Smithson Valley has.

So, if the title read "Is Smithson Valley a top 5 PERCENT PROGRAM in the state?", the numbers would change.

[twcpfan1]

You really have no clue... and it's obvious. Come back to me when you can tell me how many d-1 players we've had since 1993. If you can't answer that question I'd suggest you stop acting like you know anything about the SV program.

I do know that 1 or 2 D1 players do not make a 'talented' team. Look at Ike and Humble. Mac and Roos will have losing records against several teams in the state. SV aren't doing anything mind blowing by having winning records against them.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'm sorry that you guys have to be put in a position to have to defend your very good program when you guys didn't even start this thread. Just another reminder by Katy fans to the rest of us about their awesomeness this time by beating up on a 'top 5' all time program. All I'll say is you have a legit all time top 10 claim. Not too shabby. You should be proud of that. A lot of schools would.

[KT2000]

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'm sorry that you guys have to be put in a position to have to defend your very good program when you guys didn't even start this thread. Just another reminder by Katy fans to the rest of us about their awesomeness this time by beating up on a 'top 5' all time program. All I'll say is you have a legit all time top 10 claim. Not too shabby. You should be proud of that. A lot of schools would.

You'll have to point to the chest beating because I haven't seen any of it. Two of the three games could have gone either way (with SV taking one), so I would not consider that "beating up" anyway.

[E-Vol-ution]

Scratch the "overachiever" status .........You mentioned D1, not me homeboy. Great program, good team...enough said. Just win......and maybe schedule some R1 or R2 teams in nondistrict.Well you don't say sherlock... I wouldn't have ever figured that out considering we usually are on the short end of the stick when it comes to d-1 talent...

[twcpfan1]

You'll have to point to the chest beating because I haven't seen any of it. Two of the three games could have gone either way (with SV taking one), so I would not consider that "beating up" anyway.

Oh I don't know. Maybe all the talk since the state game about Katy's road to the championship. Just logical to assume at this point that it might have motivated the inception of this thread. I could be wrong though. I should have preceded the statement with an IMO. Honestly, you guys aren't doing anything different to what the rest of us would do in the same situation. We all tend to want to elevate the status of the teams we beat. Just hoping that one day we can have a state championship people can pick apart. It's a nice problem to have.

The beatdown was just referring to last year's game. Should have been more specific

[SV61]

Scratch the "overachiever" status .........You mentioned D1, not me homeboy. Great program, good team...enough said. Just win......and maybe schedule some R1 or R2 teams in nondistrict.

You mean, like Judson or Wagner??

:confused:

[slcdragonfan]

I'll give ya' a top 10, good enough?

[E-Vol-ution]

Like Stony, Permian, Allen, SLC, Woodlands, Arlington Bowie, Skyline, Cedar Hill, Garland, Lake Highlands, Abilene type guys.
You mean, like Judson or Wagner??

:confused:

[farmerfan]

Again like twcpfan you have no clue what the hell you're talking about. Roosevelt, Madison, MacArthur have the better talent this year... and as far as the region goes... P-ville, Westlake, Austin Bowie.... will also have better talent than us this year. If you can't tell me how many d-1 players SV has had since 1993 I'd suggest you stop making off the wall guesses like that.

Since when have schools like Madison, Roosevelt, Pflugerville, Westlake and Bowie been known as D1 hotbeds? If D1 was talent was what it took to win titles then how come Plano and Permian did for so long without the luxury of having a plethora of D1 players? How about Lewisville? We won a title in 96 with one D1 player and the only offer he received was from North Texas and the Southlake fans will tell you thats not too impressive ;)
I do not have the numbers for the class of 2007 but the class of 2005, 2006 and 2008 in the San Antonio area sent a total of 28 players to D1 schools. 5 in 05, 13 in 06 and 10 in 08. Thats out of how many schools? So its not like those schools are just "loaded" with all this D1 talent. How many guys did SV send to D1 schools in the class of 05? I believe at least 2 and maybe 3. How come they couldn't get the job done then?
So once again, its not like the district and region is just loaded with all this talent now is it. In fact speaking of talent, wasn't SA Madison without their most talented player in the playoff game against the Rangers in 07? I would definitely think that would have led to a victory. What happened? :rolleyes:;)

[farmerfan]

Top 5, Top 10....it's all based on opinion.

Some schools WISH they could have the "Program" that SV has. Almost being one of the best is better than almost being one of the worst..

I do not think anybody has said that SV has a bad program. I just think people realize them for what they are. I bet ya plenty of schools would love to play in Region 4 too. Even you have taken a shot at Region 4 before. ;)

[ftballin11]

I find it pretty difficult to accept that Lufkin and NS have titles and yet are underachievers compared to SV who has none.

Also, enough already about the assumption that SV does not have a lot of talent. They have plenty.


You amaze me. You really have no Idea about SV. :rolleyes: I think the SV D-line averaged 180LBs last year.

[farmerfan]

You'll have to point to the chest beating because I haven't seen any of it. Two of the three games could have gone either way (with SV taking one), so I would not consider that "beating up" anyway.

It was back in the thread when I believe fballin11 made the comment about the programs being "mirror images of each other and how they know they have been in a battle" and so forth. The love fest is definitely there but not quite as strong as the love fest between Carroll and Katy:D It's quite obvious that the respect is there for both programs and I actually agree with twcpfan that it was an attempt on fballin11's part to possibly justify Katy's "so called weak" road to the title. That is all speculation on my part and I very well may be wrong. I just don't know why else a Katy fan would start this thread;)

[ftballin11]

Why is it that Katy is ranked at the top of just about every list for being the best program in Texas over the course of the past decade?


Maybe because they have the most wins this decade.:confused:

[KT2000]

Oh I don't know. Maybe all the talk since the state game about Katy's road to the championship. Just logical to assume at this point that it might have motivated the inception of this thread. I could be wrong though. I should have preceded the statement with an IMO. Honestly, you guys aren't doing anything different to what the rest of us would do in the same situation. We all tend to want to elevate the status of the teams we beat. Just hoping that one day we can have a state championship people can pick apart. It's a nice problem to have.

The beatdown was just referring to last year's game. Should have been more specific

I certainly didn't gather any of that just based on the fact a Katy fan started the thread about Smithson Valley.

[Fleeman93]

Maybe because they have the most wins this decade.:confused:

Wins are only because of the weak region. Winning 4 out of 5 against the best the North could muster up does speak volumes though.

[ftballin11]

It was back in the thread when I believe fballin11 made the comment about the programs being "mirror images of each other and how they know they have been in a battle" and so forth. The love fest is definitely there but not quite as strong as the love fest between Carroll and Katy:D It's quite obvious that the respect is there for both programs and I actually agree with twcpfan that it was an attempt on fballin11's part to possibly justify Katy's "so called weak" road to the title. That is all speculation on my part and I very well may be wrong. I just don't know why else a Katy fan would start this thread;)

Actually. Your Boy friend Steeler was trying to be an expert on Texas hs football again, and compared SV to CY-Bay.

I stated my opinion that I felt like SV is a top 5 team in the state. Then Evo listed 10 teams from the DFW that he felt were better programs than SV. Including Bowie and Skyline. So I felt like it was a good topic.

I think SV doesn't get the credit they deserve. I know most of Katy respects that program.

[KT2000]

I just don't know why else a Katy fan would start this thread;)

Most of the posters who've started the more controversial Katy and Southlake Carroll threads weren't associated with either school.

But I don't think you can expect people to not be a little defensive when they read that their team doesn't play anyone, therefore their accomplishments are irrelevant, in just about every thread involving any type of state debate.

I won't deny there is also a bit of hypocrisy present because some of the fans defending Katy for last year were the same ones who jumped Trinity's case in 2007.

But no, I definitely missed the part of the original post in this thread that was intended to put Katy on a pedestal.

[farmerfan]

Maybe because they have the most wins this decade.:confused:

yeah I am sure wins have everything to do with it

[ftballin11]

Looks like the voters in the poll aren't buying the SV top 5 angle.

Actually I think some of the most respected posters voted for SV.

[farmerfan]

Actually. Your Boy friend Steeler was trying to be an expert on Texas hs football again, and compared SV to CY-Bay.

I stated my opinion that I felt like SV is a top 5 team in the state. Then Evo listed 10 teams from the DFW that he felt were better programs than SV. Including Bowie and Skyline. So I felt like it was a good topic.

I think SV doesn't get the credit they deserve. I know most of Katy respects that program.

As I said, speculation on my part. If that was the reason then I believe you much like I believe owned05 with his knife stabbing comment.
SV is a state top 10 program but I do find it funny how the only ones coming to their defense is obviously SV fans and then some Katy fans. Bowie and Skyline are not there yet but if they continue to have deep runs over the next 4-5 years and add a title and SV stays title less in that same time frame then I think he would have a point. As of now though those programs would not rank ahead of SV.
SV gets all the credit they deserve. Credit for being a very good program but not among the top 5. I bet if you started a poll of if they were a top 10 program then you would find the results would reverse big time.

[farmerfan]

Most of the posters who've started the more controversial Katy and Southlake Carroll threads weren't associated with either school.

But I don't think you can expect people to not be a little defensive when they read that their team doesn't play anyone, therefore their accomplishments are irrelevant, in just about every thread involving any type of state debate.

I won't deny there is also a bit of hypocrisy present because some of the fans defending Katy for last year were the same ones who jumped Trinity's case in 2007.

But no, I definitely missed the part of the original post in this thread that was intended to put Katy on a pedestal.

What I am talking about is the occasional attempt to hijack a thread involving how much you guys want to do it again badly. Thats fine and all but when threads are about other things then we hear that. Or how in their own threads the discussion always stems to wanting to play each other again. Which once again is fine, it means you are in a title game but who cares who you play as long as you are playing against a team from the other end of the state in December.

The part in bold is definitely true. Of course it will be turned around on those who defended Trinity for changing their stance a year later too to attempt to take away from Katy's accomplishments.

[ftballin11]

yeah I am sure wins have everything to do with it


Combination of wins titles and consistency. Also Seeing the growth of a team from start to finish, Like SV in 04'. Watching teams with far less talent playing mistake free fundamental football. Teams getting the most out of there talent.

[farmerfan]

Actually I think some of the most respected posters voted for SV.

What posters are those? I see KT2000 and thats it. No offense to the others but they are not any more respected than those who voted the opposite.

[farmerfan]

Combination of wins titles and consistency. Also Seeing the growth of a team from start to finish, Like SV in 04'. Watching teams with far less talent playing mistake free fundamental football. Teams getting the most out of there talent.

Those don't count.


SV in 04 had some talent. They had size, speed and they sent what 2-3 guys to D1 schools.

[twcpfan1]

You amaze me. You really have no Idea about SV. :rolleyes: I think the SV D-line averaged 180LBs last year.

The score in the Katy game certainly reflected that. Thanks for making my point.

Bottom line is. No matter how good you are or how good your coaches are, you need good players to win. There is not some magic potion that will alter that fact. You are most successful in the years you have the best personnel.

[ftballin11]

Those don't count.


SV in 04 had some talent. They had size, speed and they sent what 2-3 guys to D1 schools.

I meant 05' when they played Katy actually.But anyways SV is not a hotbad for talent.

They count, but Im not ready to put one team over another just because they have one more title than the other. Especially when the other team has more wins and trips to the title game.

[TrojanHorse03]

The part in bold is definitely true. Of course it will be turned around on those who defended Trinity for changing their stance a year later too to attempt to take away from Katy's accomplishments.

Contrary to some belief Trinity 2007 and Katy 2008 are not apples to apples, it would be very inaccurate and lazy to say so.

[ftballin11]

The score in the Katy game certainly reflected that. Thanks for making my point.

Bottom line is. No matter how good you are or how good your coaches are, you need good players to win. There is not some magic potion that will alter that fact. You are most successful in the years you have the best personnel.


Im not going to bring Katy into this thread.


Yes you need talent to win. But you need a program with coaching to be consistent.

Coaching is far more important than the quality of players.

[twcpfan1]

Im not going to bring Katy into this thread.


Yes you need talent to win. But you need a program with coaching to be consistent.

Coaching is far more important than the quality of players.

Who they played is irrelevant. Just pointing out that the physical limitations you alluded to is tough for anybody to overcome. No matter how good their coach is or how great the program is historically. Cy Falls had the better athletes in the 06 R3 final. Same thing.

[twcpfan1]

I certainly didn't gather any of that just based on the fact a Katy fan started the thread about Smithson Valley.

I understand. It's speculation on my part. If the thread starter says that's not the reason, then I'll stand corrected. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[svhorns]

Like Stony, Permian, Allen, SLC, Woodlands, Arlington Bowie, Skyline, Cedar Hill, Garland, Lake Highlands, Abilene type guys.

2-0 against The Woodlands expert.

[farmerfan]

2-0 against The Woodlands expert.

Lufkin is 2-0 against Katy. But that doesn't count for Lufkin

[CKE]

Since when have schools like Madison, Roosevelt, Pflugerville, Westlake and Bowie been known as D1 hotbeds? If D1 was talent was what it took to win titles then how come Plano and Permian did for so long without the luxury of having a plethora of D1 players? How about Lewisville? We won a title in 96 with one D1 player and the only offer he received was from North Texas and the Southlake fans will tell you thats not too impressive ;)
I do not have the numbers for the class of 2007 but the class of 2005, 2006 and 2008 in the San Antonio area sent a total of 28 players to D1 schools. 5 in 05, 13 in 06 and 10 in 08. Thats out of how many schools? So its not like those schools are just "loaded" with all this D1 talent. How many guys did SV send to D1 schools in the class of 05? I believe at least 2 and maybe 3. How come they couldn't get the job done then?
So once again, its not like the district and region is just loaded with all this talent now is it. In fact speaking of talent, wasn't SA Madison without their most talented player in the playoff game against the Rangers in 07? I would definitely think that would have led to a victory. What happened? :rolleyes:;)

Sv sent two players D-1 in 05 and that was Joe Pawelek and Eryk Anders...Calvin Gore playes for Texas State and that was the next "best" player sent to college then. The reason we could not get the job done is becasue we had to play against SLC who sent a considerable amount more D-1 players than we did and still managed to squeek by us in the last 6 seconds of the game by a field goal.As for 07 SV lost their best player(who only went D-2 by the way) and 2 games before the Madison game and had to change the game plan that they had been using all year while Madison had plenty of time to adjust to how they wanted to play losing Devin Thomas very early in the year.Anyway to everyone else ya'll should know better than to do this with farmerfan he gets on a subject and just instigates and stays on it until you stop or admit that only his opinion matters. :rolleyes:;)