Nugget from the "Cap and Trade" bill that passed yesterday

[GoOwls]

Where's all the talk about this monstrosity of an indirect/direct energy tax that will top 850 billion, on the low side?

Here is a nugget buried in that puppy on page 98.

You own a house.

You want to sell that house.

The govt. is going to increase the minimum standards for insulation in every home in America, so when you go to sell the house, if your home, no matter how old it is, doesn't measure up to the standards for that age of home for how much insulation it has in it, you can not sell the home until you bring it up to standards....doesn't matter how new and up to date it is.....

You don't have, say $3,000 to bring it up to standards, so you decide to drop the price of the home by $3,000 so the buyer can fix it.......nope.....not so fast, Obama and the Dems don't want yo to do that, you must bring it up to standars on your own.....they refuse to allow the work to be financed...so go work a part time job for a year to save up the money to sell your home.

Better hope you don't have to sell it quick for cash so your kid can get a transplant that Obamas health care won't pay for.....

You ask for change.....you got it.....now choke on it.

[slorch]

I heard a rumor that there was a separation of "church" and state.

Why are we financial supporting the religion of environmentalism with our gov't?

[drgnbkr]

I think even the obama kool aid drinkers see this mess for what it is...We can only hope for some sanity in the senate..and faint hope that is. Most congress folks have yet to be able to read what they voted for...But hey, the public saw what they were voting for in these morons, and did it anyway.

[J-Rock Mom]

Where's all the talk about this monstrosity of an indirect/direct energy tax that will top 850 billion, on the low side?

Here is a nugget buried in that puppy on page 98.

You own a house.

You want to sell that house.

The govt. is going to increase the minimum standards for insulation in every home in America, so when you go to sell the house, if your home, no matter how old it is, doesn't measure up to the standards for that age of home for how much insulation it has in it, you can not sell the home until you bring it up to standards....doesn't matter how new and up to date it is.....

You don't have, say $3,000 to bring it up to standards, so you decide to drop the price of the home by $3,000 so the buyer can fix it.......nope.....not so fast, Obama and the Dems don't want yo to do that, you must bring it up to standars on your own.....they refuse to allow the work to be financed...so go work a part time job for a year to save up the money to sell your home.

Better hope you don't have to sell it quick for cash so your kid can get a transplant that Obamas health care won't pay for.....

You ask for change.....you got it.....now choke on it.

Well said!!!!!!!

[clc]

This whole new "change" is disgusting to me. I think that this is the first time that I have ever really been nervous about our government and our country.

[BDB]

This whole new "change" is disgusting to me. I think that this is the first time that I have ever really been nervous about our government and our country.

really? first time?

this one scared the hell outta me....

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/8/bush_bringemon.jpg

then there was

http://cairsweb.llgc.org.uk/images/ilw1/ilw3584.gif

[Firebird]

Here's a copy of the bill's text. I can't find this new regulation on page 98 (which talks about standards for electricity generating units), nor, in a quick skim, can I find it in Title II (Building Efficiency), which begins on page 320. GoOwls, perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out the source of your information:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

[pied]

Where's all the talk about this monstrosity of an indirect/direct energy tax that will top 850 billion, on the low side?

Here is a nugget buried in that puppy on page 98.


Just reviewing page 98 of the bill. Was it buried in invisible ink?




98
H.L.C.
1 covered EGU is considered to be initially permitted
2 under this paragraph.
3 ‘‘(b) STANDARDS.—(1) A covered EGU that is ini4
tially permitted on or after January 1, 2020, shall achieve
5 an emission limit that is a 65 percent reduction in emis6
sions of the carbon dioxide produced by the unit, as
7 measured on an annual basis, or meet such more stringent
8 standard as the Administrator may establish pursuant to
9 subsection (c).
10 ‘‘(2) A covered EGU that is initially permitted after
11 January 1, 2009, and before January 1, 2020, shall, by
12 the applicable compliance date established under this
13 paragraph, achieve an emission limit that is a 50 percent
14 reduction in emissions of the carbon dioxide produced by
15 the unit, as measured on an annual basis. Compliance
16 with the requirement set forth in this paragraph shall be
17 required by the earliest of the following:
18 ‘‘(A) Four years after the date the Adminis19
trator has published pursuant to subsection (d) a re20
port that there are in commercial operation in the
21 United States electric generating units or other sta22
tionary sources equipped with carbon capture and
23 sequestration technology that, in the aggregate—
24 ‘‘(i) have a total of at least 4 gigawatts of
25 nameplate generating capacity of which—



H.R 2454 ACES Waxman-Markey Bill

[RedRage00]

Here's a copy of the bill's text. I can't find this new regulation on page 98 (which talks about standards for electricity generating units), nor, in a quick skim, can I find it in Title II (Building Efficiency), which begins on page 320. GoOwls, perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out the source of your information:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

Just reviewing page 98 of the bill. Was it buried in invisible ink?



H.R 2454 ACES Waxman-Markey Bill


Maybe it was a chain email? :D

[pied]

Maybe it was a chain email? :D

Missed firebird's post. Kind of funny.

[dragonpants]

What is most disturbing is that at the time of the vote the bill was not even typed up but yet there was a 300 plus page amendment so the members of the house were voting on a hypothetical bill.
The Senate will kill it, I hope anyway.

[JagFan]

What is most disturbing is that at the time of the vote the bill was not even typed up but yet there was a 300 plus page amendment so the members of the house were voting on a hypothetical bill.
The Senate will kill it, I hope anyway.

From your lips to the senates ears.

[the_phoenix612]

What is most disturbing is that at the time of the vote the bill was not even typed up but yet there was a 300 plus page amendment so the members of the house were voting on a hypothetical bill.
The Senate will kill it, I hope anyway.

the nice thing about the democrats controlling the senate is that they can choose their moment.

That is why it was pushed through the house with a minimum of Obama involvement. He is saving his political capital for the Senate fight over this and then healthcare. This means they'll probably wait until something good happens, or the economy turns around. If you're right, and it doesn't, they're screwed anyways.

Republicans, right now, have 39 solid "nos" on this bill. Not 41 like they need, but I doubt we'll see any movement on it in the near future.

[drgnbkr]

Just reviewing page 98 of the bill. Was it buried in invisible ink?



H.R 2454 ACES Waxman-Markey Bill

So with all of you questions, do you support this bill?

[the_phoenix612]

So with all of you questions, do you support this bill?

deflection alert.

is what Owls alleged to be in the bill actually in the bill or not?

[pied]

So with all of you questions, do you support this bill?

Haven't paid enough attention to say one way or another.

[drgnbkr]

Haven't paid enough attention to say one way or another.

The congress was kind of the same way...Didn't pay enough attention and voted for it anyway...As I understand it, among the dems, it was quite a struggle to see who got to vote against it...34 got to..and the others now have to try and explain themselves...

[pied]

great

[CyFallsMom]

Where's all the talk about this monstrosity of an indirect/direct energy tax that will top 850 billion, on the low side?

Here is a nugget buried in that puppy on page 98.

You own a house.

You want to sell that house.

The govt. is going to increase the minimum standards for insulation in every home in America, so when you go to sell the house, if your home, no matter how old it is, doesn't measure up to the standards for that age of home for how much insulation it has in it, you can not sell the home until you bring it up to standards....doesn't matter how new and up to date it is.....

You don't have, say $3,000 to bring it up to standards, so you decide to drop the price of the home by $3,000 so the buyer can fix it.......nope.....not so fast, Obama and the Dems don't want yo to do that, you must bring it up to standars on your own.....they refuse to allow the work to be financed...so go work a part time job for a year to save up the money to sell your home.

Better hope you don't have to sell it quick for cash so your kid can get a transplant that Obamas health care won't pay for.....

You ask for change.....you got it.....now choke on it.

I believe it also includes things such as roofing, A/C units, windows, etc. Must be why I'm all of a sudden seeing so many "for sale" signs on the way to work. I guess it's now or never. Hopefully the idiot thing will not pass the senate and I don't think they are in a hurry to begin with - maybe they will actually READ it. My gosh we've been taken over by aliens from a stupid planet I'm pretty sure.

Now, I heard this from a real estate agent friend;). Not really sure how true it is but I wouldn't be surprised since they don't read this stuff nor do they post it for the public to read prior to voting. That's not new really but, since these seem to be affecting us more than any others I can recall, we deserve a little insight. If she can send me a link, I'll post it here.

[CyFallsMom]

Okay, I know it's just a "blog" and not truth but it makes for some intersting reading. I'm still looking for something that is more tangible.

http://activerain.com/blogsview/1134766/cap-and-trade-will-destroy-real-estate-ownership

[CyFallsMom]

found something within the bill:

(7) A requirement that building retrofits con2
ducted pursuant to a REEP program utilize, espe3
cially in all air-conditioned buildings, roofing mate4
rials with high solar energy reflectance, unless inap5
propriate due to green roof management, solar en6
ergy production, or for other reasons identified by
7 the Administrator, in order to reduce energy con8
sumption within the building, increase the albedo of
9 the building’s roof, and decrease the heat island ef10
fect in the area of the building, without reduction of
11 otherwise applicable ceiling insulation standards.
12 (8) Determination of energy savings in a per13
formance-based building retrofit program through—
14 (A) for residential buildings, comparison of
15 before and after retrofit scores on the Home
16 Energy Rating System (HERS) Index, where
17 the final score is produced by an objective third
18 party;
19 (

It starts on Page 333 and goes for a while. Also, there is something in there about making people who live in trailers that were built prior to 1976 move into a newer, energy efficient one.

[Firebird]

found something within the bill:

(7) A requirement that building retrofits con2
ducted pursuant to a REEP program utilize, espe3
cially in all air-conditioned buildings, roofing mate4
rials with high solar energy reflectance, unless inap5
propriate due to green roof management, solar en6
ergy production, or for other reasons identified by
7 the Administrator, in order to reduce energy con8
sumption within the building, increase the albedo of
9 the building’s roof, and decrease the heat island ef10
fect in the area of the building, without reduction of
11 otherwise applicable ceiling insulation standards.
12 (8) Determination of energy savings in a per13
formance-based building retrofit program through—
14 (A) for residential buildings, comparison of
15 before and after retrofit scores on the Home
16 Energy Rating System (HERS) Index, where
17 the final score is produced by an objective third
18 party;
19 (

It starts on Page 333 and goes for a while. Also, there is something in there about making people who live in trailers that were built prior to 1976 move into a newer, energy efficient one.

The REEP is an incentive program that provides assitance to people looking to retrofit, it has nothing to do with anything GoOwls posted.

Also, there is nothing about "making" people move into new trailers, there is a program that will provide rebates for people who want to exchange their old trailer for a new one.

Nice try, though.

[85Roughneck]

really? first time?

this one scared the hell outta me....

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/8/bush_bringemon.jpg

then there was

http://cairsweb.llgc.org.uk/images/ilw1/ilw3584.gif

can you explain what you are scared of?

[chhspantherfan]

The REEP is an incentive program that provides assitance to people looking to retrofit, it has nothing to do with anything GoOwls posted.

Also, there is nothing about "making" people move into new trailers, there is a program that will provide rebates for people who want to exchange their old trailer for a new one.

Nice try, though.

please lay out all of the benefits of the bill for us. You seem to already have a grasp of the points and it may help some of our posters. I, for one would like your input.

[BDB]

can you explain what you are scared of?

challenging terrorists to "bring it on" and a nuclear arms race with a world power..... seems like more of a threat then rebates for mobile homes and energy efficiency for houses for sale.

[85Roughneck]

challenging terrorists to "bring it on" and a nuclear arms race with a world power..... seems like more of a threat then rebates for mobile homes and energy efficiency for houses for sale.

so your scared of a President that had the nads to tell those ******** that blew up the twin towers "bring it on!" ... at least he didn't tell you that under his plan he would put your children's children's children in debt up to their necks and promise to you that your electric bill would sky rocket under his energy bill. :rolleyes:

[BDB]

so your scared of a President that had the nads to tell those ******** that blew up the twin towers "bring it on!" ... at least he didn't tell you that under his plan he would put your children's children's children in debt up to their necks and promise to you that your electric bill would sky rocket under his energy bill. :rolleyes:

bring it on.... people who's professional lively hood depends on blowing up people with no remorse or care as to the repercussions..... after we ignored debriefing about an upcoming attack from said group.... in hopes that i seem like a maverick in the eyes of a feeble public.... BRING! IT! ON!

could be worse... he could have okayed tax breaks and bills that allowed big business to move jobs to 3rd world countries, all while softening sanctions for enviornmental safety.... oh wait.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :rolleyes:

[85Roughneck]

bring it on.... people who's professional lively hood depends on blowing up people with no remorse or care as to the repercussions..... after we ignored debriefing about an upcoming attack from said group.... in hopes that i seem like a maverick in the eyes of a feeble public.... BRING! IT! ON!

could be worse... he could have okayed tax breaks and bills that allowed big business to move jobs to 3rd world countries, all while softening sanctions for enviornmental safety.... oh wait.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :rolleyes:

prez, u and I could roll in the rocks with this kind of discussion all day. just keep in mind that the liberals run the jobs overseas just as much as the conservatives and if you think the libs are innocent when it comes to the environment you are naive. at the end of the day, I'll take a president like Raegan or JFK that had nads to keep us safe. Obama appears soft to me and if he appears soft to me you can just imagine what the terrorists think of him. Kim Jong Il and Ahmedinejad are going to test your boy Obama and he will fail ... IMHO.

[mad_fan]

The REEP is an incentive program that provides assitance to people looking to retrofit, it has nothing to do with anything GoOwls posted.

Also, there is nothing about "making" people move into new trailers, there is a program that will provide rebates for people who want to exchange their old trailer for a new one.

Nice try, though.

Energy efficient mortgages...:notworthy
God Bless American home finance...and the US Congress that makes it happen...:notworthy
...
I wonder if it cost the same to bail out an energy efficient mortgage???:confused:

[mad_fan]

bring it on.... people who's professional lively hood depends on blowing up people with no remorse or care as to the repercussions..... after we ignored debriefing about an upcoming attack from said group.... in hopes that i seem like a maverick in the eyes of a feeble public.... BRING! IT! ON!

could be worse... he could have okayed tax breaks and bills that allowed big business to move jobs to 3rd world countries, all while softening sanctions for enviornmental safety.... oh wait.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :rolleyes:

Could you give some examples???
Were there motivations OTHER THAN moving jobs overseas???
Was it to equalize taxes???
Was it reaching out to these 3rd world countries???
Or was this just the usual Yard BS???

[BDB]

prez, u and I could roll in the rocks with this kind of discussion all day. just keep in mind that the liberals run the jobs overseas just as much as the conservatives and if you think the libs are innocent when it comes to the environment you are naive. at the end of the day, I'll take a president like Raegan or JFK that had nads to keep us safe. Obama appears soft to me and if he appears soft to me you can just imagine what the terrorists think of him. Kim Jong Il and Ahmedinejad are going to test your boy Obama and he will fail ... IMHO.

obviously bush was soft, too. they tessted him 9 months into his first year of his first term. and the same works for the financial crisis. if the repub's hadn't dropped us into the deficit with a war (which, btw, was the first to lose money in the US), there wouldn't have to be a surplus which might or might not lead to debt.

it's a full circle.

[BDB]

Could you give some examples???
Were there motivations OTHER THAN moving jobs overseas???
Was it to equalize taxes???
Was it reaching out to these 3rd world countries???
Or was this just the usual Yard BS???

cuz i'm busy, i'll take the anti-obama stance and NOT prove my point.


sucks, huh?

[mad_fan]

cuz i'm busy, i'll take the anti-obama stance and NOT prove my point.


sucks, huh?

Sucks??? No...
Expected??? Well...:rolleyes:

[Dawg Fan]

cuz i'm busy, i'll take the anti-obama stance and NOT prove my point.


sucks, huh?

you got nothing and you know it. You are taking the I love Obama stance and stick your head in the sand and hope everything works out because he promised change

[BDB]

you got nothing and you know it. You are taking the I love Obama stance and stick your head in the sand and hope everything works out because he promised change

writing a website, learning Unix command prompts for an exam on thursday, and trying to finish making a song using Fruity Loops XL 8. if i post anything this week, it's gonna be off memory. i'm not gonna waste time looking up information.

i just find it funny that even though i haven't said whether i BELIEVE in obama's stance, and only flip the issue to where it involves bush, i always become an obama lover.

using that logic am i, also, a clinton lover?

[yankee]

is part of this bill is going to force energy companies to meet new energy and emission standards?

if so, we can assume that's going to cost millions and millions (maybe more?) for companies to update their standards?

and if that is true, we as customers can expect higher prices in the future, correct?

if this all is true......then i'm all for spending more money in this current economy. :rolleyes:

if what i said is not true, help me out and clear some stuff up for me. kthnx.

[Dawg Fan]

writing a website, learning Unix command prompts for an exam on thursday, and trying to finish making a song using Fruity Loops XL 8. if i post anything this week, it's gonna be off memory. i'm not gonna waste time looking up information.

i just find it funny that even though i haven't said whether i BELIEVE in obama's stance, and only flip the issue to where it involves bush, i always become an obama lover.

using that logic am i, also, a clinton lover?

absolutely!

[BDB]

absolutely!

rhetorical question. of course the answer was yes...

[Dawg Fan]

rhetorical question. of course the answer was yes...

good....since we got that cleared up, you better get back to studying for that exam

[BDB]

good....since we got that cleared up, you better get back to studying for that exam

brain hurts. i'm working on fruity loops, now. i really starting to hate any operating system that isn't mac.... as sad as that makes me feel.

[EagleDude73]

writing a website, learning Unix command prompts for an exam on thursday, and trying to finish making a song using Fruity Loops XL 8. if i post anything this week, it's gonna be off memory. i'm not gonna waste time looking up information.

i just find it funny that even though i haven't said whether i BELIEVE in obama's stance, and only flip the issue to where it involves bush, i always become an obama lover.

using that logic am i, also, a clinton lover?

I just typed 'rm' for your quote

?

[BDB]

I just typed 'rm' for your quote

......

[the_phoenix612]

challenging terrorists to "bring it on" and a nuclear arms race with a world power..... seems like more of a threat then rebates for mobile homes and energy efficiency for houses for sale.

how dare we encourage efficiency?

This is America, dammit, and if JMS wants to pollute our atmosphere and kill his future grandchildren, he can!

[GoOwls]

Here's a copy of the bill's text. I can't find this new regulation on page 98 (which talks about standards for electricity generating units), nor, in a quick skim, can I find it in Title II (Building Efficiency), which begins on page 320. GoOwls, perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out the source of your information:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

Maybe it was page 98 of the 300 pages they slipped in just hours before it was voted on...who knows....I heard it openly talked about for a full half hour on a national radio show the other night.....not Rush....

I tell you what, you go find it and tell all the congressmen who voted for it and never read it because Puke-losi had a vote on it in less than 48 hours, just like the stimulus bill and just like the health care bill is slated to be voted on...tell them where it is so they can be informed when America writes their pink slips for them in a year and a half.

I knew all the left wingers would creep out for thie one, but I must admit, you are all strangely quiet on this bill....I too would like for Bird or phoenix or the excuser/appeaser pied to outline all the goodies on this bill that will make America better for all Americans and save money in a budget crisis, while not bankrupting our government or the people who must live with this bill, of all demographics and economic strata.

Please, enlighten us idiots.

[Firebird]

Maybe it was page 98 of the 300 pages they slipped in just hours before it was voted on...who knows....I heard it openly talked about for a full half hour on a national radio show the other night.....not Rush....

I tell you what, you go find it and tell all the congressmen who voted for it and never read it because Puke-losi had a vote on it in less than 48 hours, just like the stimulus bill and just like the health care bill is slated to be voted on...tell them where it is so they can be informed when America writes their pink slips for them in a year and a half.

Here it is, have at it and let me know where it is. (Hint, not page 98)

http://www.rules.house.gov/111/SpecialRules/hr2998/waxman1_hr2998_111.pdf

[GoOwls]

Here it is, have at it and let me know where it is. (Hint, not page 98)

http://www.rules.house.gov/111/SpecialRules/hr2998/waxman1_hr2998_111.pdf

You challenged my report...you find it...I gotta go make money to pay taxes to fund this thing for all of you....all 850+ billion of it...and counting.

Including the stimulus and the proposed healthcare won't that be over 3 trillion of debt racked up this year by the Obamessiah and his "Keystone Cops Congress"? ;)

And just think, the year isn't even half over yet.....:eek:

OBAMESSIAH--------CHANGE YOUR GRANDKIDS CAN PAY FOR.

[15Adragon]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/07/01/no_climate_debate_yes_there_is/


“Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket . . . because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, natural gas, you name it . . . Whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money, and they will pass that [cost] on to consumers.’’



In the same interview, Obama suggested that his energy policy would require the ruin of the coal industry (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/02/obama-well-bankrupt-any-new-coal-plants/). “If somebody wants to build a coal-fired plant, they can,’’ he told the Chronicle. “It’s just that it will bankrupt them, because they are going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.’’


We have how much coal in this country? Crazy. The ObamaCarter Administration will bankrupt US.


No debate? The debate over global warming is more robust than it has been in years, and not only in America. “In April, the Polish Academy of Sciences published a document challenging man-made global warming,’’ Kimberly Strassel noted in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html) the other day. “In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy wants to tap Claude Allegre to lead the country’s new ministry of industry and innovation. Twenty years ago Allegre was among the first to trill about man-made global warming, but the geochemist has since recanted . . . Norway’s Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the ‘new religion.’ ’’


No debate just like their view of public school system. Just crank out some more clones. Think? Challenge? Stretch? Discipline? Why? No, it is doctrine that they deem most important.

[slcdragonfan]

brain hurts. i'm working on fruity loops, now. i really starting to hate any operating system that isn't mac.... as sad as that makes me feel.

I teethed on AT&T Unix. vi is your friend...;)

[BDB]

I teethed on AT&T Unix. vi is your friend...;)

UNIX HAS NO FRIENDS!!!! :mad:

i'm a digital artist, i needed a technical elective for my degree plan, and blindly followed my department head's advice to take this class. i forgot he is the type of designer to use mathematical equations on a project. i, incase you can't tell, am not.

[JMSFan]

Could you give some examples???
Were there motivations OTHER THAN moving jobs overseas???
Was it to equalize taxes???
Was it reaching out to these 3rd world countries???
Or was this just the usual Yard BS???

in a nutshell.

[JMSFan]

how dare we encourage efficiency?

This is America, dammit, and if JMS wants to pollute our atmosphere and kill his future grandchildren, he can!

I just want to work everyday, come home and drink a cold beer with my wife out on our back porch.
Leave me out of this.

[BDB]

in a nutshell.

from one of the yards top artists ;)

[JMSFan]

from one of the yards top artists ;)

just trying to fit in. :cool:

[BDB]

just trying to fit in. :cool:

lmao!

[CyFallsMom]

so your scared of a President that had the nads to tell those ******** that blew up the twin towers "bring it on!" ... at least he didn't tell you that under his plan he would put your children's children's children in debt up to their necks and promise to you that your electric bill would sky rocket under his energy bill. :rolleyes:

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

He was more transparent than Obama and that's saying a lot!

As for the retrofitting and such - don't fall for that. If it smells like a rat, it is a rat. They will have more authority to require us to make changes as they see fit upon the sale of a home - new or used. This is cause the price of houses to skyrocket and leave many folks out of reach of homeownership. I do agree to the statement on the mobile homes but I wouldn't put it past this government to take those over as well.

[pied]

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

He was more transparent than Obama and that's saying a lot!

As for the retrofitting and such - don't fall for that. If it smells like a rat, it is a rat. They will have more authority to require us to make changes as they see fit upon the sale of a home - new or used. This is cause the price of houses to skyrocket and leave many folks out of reach of homeownership. I do agree to the statement on the mobile homes but I wouldn't put it past this government to take those over as well.


Not that this story is accurate, nor if it is that I support it, but rising home prices is not an unwelcome point at the moment.

[CyFallsMom]

you got nothing and you know it. You are taking the I love Obama stance and stick your head in the sand and hope everything works out because he promised change

And change is what he's giving us - the exact change that many of us who don't drink Kool-Aid so much were expecting and do not deserve. If some of the Obamaites would open their ears and listen to some of his campaign rhetoric, it's crazy. For example, Obama jumping all over McCain on taxing health care and just WHAT is he proposing to do if it so hits his desk - taxing health care!! Maybe it's his ignorance on many issues or something but, either way, he is backing down on many promises. If I had voted for him, I would be pissed. But that sand around the head does wonders sometimes.

[CyFallsMom]

Not that this story is accurate, nor if it is that I support it, but rising home prices is not an unwelcome point at the moment.

If you are selling it isn't - if you are buying, not a good thing. It does help the economy though so I will give it that.

[JMSFan]

Not that this story is accurate, nor if it is that I support it, but rising home prices is not an unwelcome point at the moment.

No questions? Im impressed.

[pied]

No questions? Im impressed.

great

[JMSFan]

And change is what he's giving us - the exact change that many of us who don't drink Kool-Aid so much were expecting and do not deserve. If some of the Obamaites would open their ears and listen to some of his campaign rhetoric, it's crazy. For example, Obama jumping all over McCain on taxing health care and just WHAT is he proposing to do if it so hits his desk - taxing health care!! Maybe it's his ignorance on many issues or something but, either way, he is backing down on many promises. If I had voted for him, I would be pissed. But that sand around the head does wonders sometimes.

If those who voted for him couldnt see it during his campaign, then I doubt they ever will.

[pied]

If you are selling it isn't - if you are buying, not a good thing. It does help the economy though so I will give it that.


Good analysis. Buy low sell high.

[CyFallsMom]

Good analysis. Buy low sell high.

Hey, you brought it up!!;). I know it's simple but true. But I do understand your point that any move upward is a jolt to the economy. As someone who will be trying to sell in a couple of years, not good news for us. We have a brand new roof and A/C - both up to standards. All of our windows are 25 years old and the govt would force us to change them out. Do you know what that would cost? And don't think they won't. Now is not the time to be naive or gullible when it comes to this administration.

[Firebird]

Hey, you brought it up!!;). I know it's simple but true. But I do understand your point that any move upward is a jolt to the economy. As someone who will be trying to sell in a couple of years, not good news for us. We have a brand new roof and A/C - both up to standards. All of our windows are 25 years old and the govt would force us to change them out. Do you know what that would cost? And don't think they won't. Now is not the time to be naive or gullible when it comes to this administration.

GoOwls said so on the internets, so it's true.

[pied]

Hey, you brought it up!!;). I know it's simple but true. But I do understand your point that any move upward is a jolt to the economy. As someone who will be trying to sell in a couple of years, not good news for us. We have a brand new roof and A/C - both up to standards. All of our windows are 25 years old and the govt would force us to change them out. Do you know what that would cost? And don't think they won't. Now is not the time to be naive or gullible when it comes to this administration.

If you're forced to do it(not saying you will be), you will not be alone. I believe that there will be many companies more than willing to put in the windows/whatever prior to listing your home. You would likely be able to finance the purchase, and the company would wait until your home sells. Not all unlike the thousands of roofing companies that do your roof, for no out of pocket expense to the homeowner and are paid by the insurance company.

[Firebird]

For knuckleheads that still believe GoOwls and the internets, an article from the national association of realtors congratulating themselves on getting key amendments inserted into the final version of the bill, including:

The bill, re-numbered H.R. 2998, includes NAR-supported provisions which were championed by Rep. Perlmutter (D-CO) that exempt existing homes and buildings from the bill's energy labeling program.

Not saying it's a good bill, but take a deep breath, exhale, and stop worrying about the window police.

http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/connect/48e82f004eaaa5d895c5ffb684cb314f/government_affairs_clean_energy_leg_analysis.pdf?M OD=AJPERES&CACHEID=48e82f004eaaa5d895c5ffb684cb314f

[pied]

Did they read page 98?

[15Adragon]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDc3OWI1NjJjYWZmNmE4NjQ4Y2ZlNDMxNzgyYmI5ZDI=


Even if Waxman-Markey were perfectly formulated, it would reduce global surface temperatures by only one-tenth of 1 degree Celsius in 100 years. That’s a negligible difference, purchased at a great price. The watered-down version is still so threatening to energy-intensive industries that it mandates tariffs on goods from countries that refuse to hamstring themselves so foolishly.



Nice free trade provisions.


Democrats resorted to any expedient to pass Waxman-Markey as a long-term play: Get the bureaucratic structure in place, then work through regulators, the courts, and legislation to tighten the screws later. For them, that’s the ultimate promise of the Offsets Integrity Advisory Board, the Carbon Market Oversight Interagency Working Group, the International Reserve Allowance Program, and all the rest of the vast regulatory machinery engendered by the bill.

President Barack Obama called it an “extraordinary first step.” Extraordinary indeed.


ObamaCarter Administration is on a roll. Apartments will start looking nice. No need for new homes because nobody will be able to afford them. Heck there will be so much red tape that it will be impossible to understand if you are compliant with every regulatory agency. I got it we'll let the gov build our houses and communities because they are the only ones that can make sure that it is done right and of course they always have our best interest at heart. ;)

[15Adragon]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/07/01/no_climate_debate_yes_there_is/

BTW, this is still political and has very little to do with science.


“Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket . . . because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, natural gas, you name it . . . Whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money, and they will pass that [cost] on to consumers.’’

ObamaCarter could care less what happens in the real world. The power is within their grasp...


No debate? The debate over global warming is more robust than it has been in years, and not only in America. “In April, the Polish Academy of Sciences published a document challenging man-made global warming,’’ Kimberly Strassel noted in The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html) the other day. “In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy wants to tap Claude Allegre to lead the country’s new ministry of industry and innovation. Twenty years ago Allegre was among the first to trill about man-made global warming, but the geochemist has since recanted . . . Norway’s Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the ‘new religion.’ ’’


They don't want to dicsuss it just force legislation, costs and ultimately less freedom. That is it. The sheep willingly follow. Amazing.

[dragonpants]

Not that this story is accurate, nor if it is that I support it, but rising home prices is not an unwelcome point at the moment.

Until you try to sell yours and your 3000 sq ft plus home that may be retrofitted up do code sits on the market for months and months because the buyer cannot afford the new "skyrocketed" electric bill to cool your beautiful home in the summer in Texas, also with the rising home price that will keep your buyer away is the usurious property taxes that accompany a nice home with a big mortgage, you will start to see people downsizing, they will no choice. In the hot summer months there are times I am paying 600-800 a month to cool my home, that is well insulated, kept at 76 downstairs and 78 upstairs etc etc what will that cost be now????????????? Define skyrocket even conservatively 750-1000? I would buy a smaller home, it would be a factor.

[pied]

Until you try to sell yours and your 3000 sq ft plus home that may be retrofitted up do code sits on the market for months and months because the buyer cannot afford the new "skyrocketed" electric bill to cool your beautiful home in the summer in Texas, also with the rising home price that will keep your buyer away is the usurious property taxes that accompany a nice home with a big mortgage, you will start to see people downsizing, they will no choice. In the hot summer months there are times I am paying 600-800 a month to cool my home, that is well insulated, kept at 76 downstairs and 78 upstairs etc etc what will that cost be now????????????? Define skyrocket even conservatively 750-1000? I would buy a smaller home, it would be a factor.


If home prices continue to go down, adding upgrades will not be the biggest worry you would have. In any case, unless your home is not yet contructed, per Firebird's link, upgrading would not appear to be an issue.

The bill, re-numbered H.R. 2998, includes NAR-supported provisions which were championed by Rep. Perlmutter (D-CO) that exempt existing homes and buildings from the bill's energy labeling program.

[dragonpants]

If home prices continue to go down, adding upgrades will not be the biggest worry you would have. In any case, unless your home is not yet contructed, per Firebird's link, upgrading would not appear to be an issue.

Fortunately homes in our area are still appreciating although at a slower pace but even taking away the upgrading portion it is still going to be incredibly expensive to heat and cool a larger home and that will keep people away.

[pied]

Fortunately homes in our area are still appreciating although at a slower pace but even taking away the upgrading portion it is still going to be incredibly expensive to heat and cool a larger home and that will keep people away.

I would suggest that $600-$800/month is incredibly expensive for a 3,000 suqare foot home.

[Firebird]

I think that pants' point is that it will be harder to sell a home without the retrofit because of rising costs, or it will be expensive to upgrade a home with the retrofit to make it more affordable. Either way, the bill is likely to make houses not up to the new standards less valuable when an owner wants to sell. I think this is a legit worry for homeowners. But this works both ways--- buyers can choose to save up front by spending less on a non-retro fit house, or they can pay more up front over the long haul by buying one that has been brought up to code.

I do wonder about the actual overall impact on house values. I would assume that most people who live in the new developments with these bigger homes all have houses roughly comparable in terms of energy efficiency. Most of the homes in these developments were built at about the same time and are pretty much cookie cutter. You drive through the big gated communities, there just isn't much difference in terms of building technique and quality between the houses. Barring all of your neighbors deciding at the same time to spring for the retrofit, it's unlikely your house will lose much value relative to the other houses around you.

What it might do is make springing for a new home slightly more attractive. And, after developments with the new standards are widespread, make the newer houses more attractive than pre-code houses.

Not saying this is good legislation, just trying to cut through the hysteria to see actual impacts.

[dragonpants]

I would suggest that $600-$800/month is incredibly expensive for a 3,000 suqare foot home.

is only a couple of months but is always over 200. I was using 3000 as an example my home is a little bigger and two stories.

[pied]

is only a couple of months but is always over 200. I was using 3000 as an example my home is a little bigger and two stories.

My house is slightly under that, three stories, and has windows the entire west facing side of the house(quasi A-frame). My electric bill was $188 last month.

[pied]

Most of the homes in these developments were built at about the same time and are pretty much cookie cutter. You drive through the big gated communities, there just isn't much difference in terms of building technique and quality between the houses. Barring all of your neighbors deciding at the same time to spring for the retrofit, it's unlikely your house will lose much value relative to the other houses around you.


That is my basic point. Newer, more energy efficient homes might sell at a premium, but by and large existing houses are what they are.

[liveball]

So now its another crisis from conservatives.
Obama is holding you to what you said you wanted when gas was $4.50 a gallon and everyone was crying green. If you are selling your house, do the insulation AND the AC and whatever energy effecient things you can afford. You will get a tax credit and you will save yourself from the hypocracy of your leaders. Is it the easy thing to do? No. Neither is chemotherapy but you do what you have to to stay alive.
Pathetic.

[slcdragonfan]

is only a couple of months but is always over 200. I was using 3000 as an example my home is a little bigger and two stories.

We all know that isn't about the size of your house, its where its located. :)

[slcdragonfan]

My house is slightly under that, three stories, and has windows the entire west facing side of the house(quasi A-frame). My electric bill was $188 last month.

What, are you in a well or a missile silo???

[slcdragonfan]

Fortunately homes in our area are still appreciating although at a slower pace but even taking away the upgrading portion it is still going to be incredibly expensive to heat and cool a larger home and that will keep people away.

Just got an appraisal to mod my loan; boy, am I happy! IF I believed the appraisal my home has increased in value by >25% from the last appraisal about 2 years ago.

God Bless Southlake.;)

[pied]

What, are you in a well or a missile silo???

Not quite, but my house is built into a hill, giving me a quasi basement. 16" ICF all the way around, the foundation if you will. The HVAC for the bottome two floors, is in the corner, so almost all underground. Makes a BIG difference when your AC unit is in 75 degree or so comfort as opposed to a 150 degree attic. Like I said the remainder is a quasi A-frame, with spray foam insulation, all the way up the walls and roof. The roof was built w/a ridge vent and radiant barrier roofing. The third story is cooled/heated with the unit in the attic. Still gets hot up there, but it's reduced quite a bit.

Very tall windows(double paned-gas filled) that run the entire west side, but also have black out blinds that are down most afternoons. My septic is aerobic one which waters some of the lawn, and we don't have access to gas, so run on propane currently. Lots of trees as well help shade the home.

[JMSFan]

I would suggest that $600-$800/month is incredibly expensive for a 3,000 suqare foot home.

Really? Our home is right at 1800 sq. ft. and our June elec. bill was $308.00.

[slcdragonfan]

Not quite, but my house is built into a hill, giving me a quasi basement. 16" ICF all the way around, the foundation if you will. The HVAC for the bottome two floors, is in the corner, so almost all underground. Makes a BIG difference when your AC unit is in 75 degree or so comfort as opposed to a 150 degree attic. Like I said the remainder is a quasi A-frame, with spray foam insulation, all the way up the walls and roof. The roof was built w/a ridge vent and radiant barrier roofing. The third story is cooled/heated with the unit in the attic. Still gets hot up there, but it's reduced quite a bit.

Very tall windows(double paned-gas filled) that run the entire west side, but also have black out blinds that are down most afternoons. My septic is aerobic one which waters some of the lawn, and we don't have access to gas, so run on propane currently. Lots of trees as well help shade the home.

Wow. What area do you live in? I figured it had to be somewhat underground. I like the aerobic septic as well.

[GoOwls]

For knuckleheads that still believe GoOwls and the internets, an article from the national association of realtors congratulating themselves on getting key amendments inserted into the final version of the bill, including:



Not saying it's a good bill, but take a deep breath, exhale, and stop worrying about the window police.

http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/connect/48e82f004eaaa5d895c5ffb684cb314f/government_affairs_clean_energy_leg_analysis.pdf?M OD=AJPERES&CACHEID=48e82f004eaaa5d895c5ffb684cb314f

3 trillion dollars of debt and counting.........nice work, if you can get it.....;)

[GoOwls]

I would suggest that $600-$800/month is incredibly expensive for a 3,000 suqare foot home.

Since I service 400 homes a day, let me guarante you that there are more people than you know who pay $600 a month in the summer for electric in homes less than 2000 Sq. Ft........it's no stretch to see $800 in a 3000 footer.

[GoOwls]

So now its another crisis from conservatives.
Obama is holding you to what you said you wanted when gas was $4.50 a gallon and everyone was crying green. If you are selling your house, do the insulation AND the AC and whatever energy effecient things you can afford. You will get a tax credit and you will save yourself from the hypocracy of your leaders. Is it the easy thing to do? No. Neither is chemotherapy but you do what you have to to stay alive.
Pathetic.

Nice first post....welcome to the board.

[JagFan]

I skimmed the bill and could not find it. But yesterday on CNN and Fox they were talking about it. Juan was asking someone from the WH about it and their response was it saves money and conserves energy for houses to be up to date. So it may not be in the bill but people sure are talking like it is.

Maybe they don't know it is not in the bill because once again nobody read it:eek:

[BDB]

So now its another crisis from conservatives.
Obama is holding you to what you said you wanted when gas was $4.50 a gallon and everyone was crying green. If you are selling your house, do the insulation AND the AC and whatever energy effecient things you can afford. You will get a tax credit and you will save yourself from the hypocracy of your leaders. Is it the easy thing to do? No. Neither is chemotherapy but you do what you have to to stay alive.
Pathetic.

but bush was president then.... that's why it would have worked.

[RedRage00]

Since I service 400 homes a day, let me guarante you that there are more people than you know who pay $600 a month in the summer for electric in homes less than 2000 Sq. Ft........it's no stretch to see $800 in a 3000 footer.

Tmi

[BDB]

Tmi

if the wife gets the milkman, does the husband get the mailman? :confused:

[pied]

Since I service 400 homes a day, let me guarante you that there are more people than you know who pay $600 a month in the summer for electric in homes less than 2000 Sq. Ft........it's no stretch to see $800 in a 3000 footer.

perhaps they need more insulation.

[slcdragonfan]

perhaps they need more insulation.

like the price of gasoline, high electric bills will modify behavior. When people go to buy houses, they will once again (I used to do this) ask to see a years worth of electric bills, and that will enter into the purchasing decision.

[stevefoxsc]

Kim Jong Il and Ahmedinejad are going to test your boy Obama and he will fail ... IMHO.

It doesn't matter what president you have that fact of the matter is north korea genuinely hates America, they want nothing more than a war with us in any way possible.

As far as testing 3½ wholesome years.

[pied]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/07/01/no_climate_debate_yes_there_is/

BTW, this is still political and has very little to do with science.

ObamaCarter could care less what happens in the real world. The power is within their grasp...



They don't want to dicsuss it just force legislation, costs and ultimately less freedom. That is it. The sheep willingly follow. Amazing.


Who knows what to believe.


ExxonMobil continuing to fund climate sceptic groups, records show

Records show ExxonMobil gave hundreds of thousands of pounds to lobby groups that have published 'misleading and inaccurate information' about climate change

The world's largest oil company is continuing to fund lobby groups that question the reality of global warming, despite a public pledge to cut support for such climate change denial, a new analysis shows.

Company records show that ExxonMobil handed over hundreds of thousands of pounds to such lobby groups in 2008. These include the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) in Dallas, Texas, which received $75,000 (£45,500), and the Heritage Foundation in Washington DC, which received $50,000.

According to Bob Ward, policy and communications director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment, at the London School of Economics, both the NCPA and the Heritage Foundation have published "misleading and inaccurate information about climate change."

On its website, the NCPA says: "NCPA scholars believe that while the causes and consequences of the earth's current warming trend is [sic] still unknown, the cost of actions to substantially reduce CO2 emissions would be quite high and result in economic decline, accelerated environmental destruction, and do little or nothing to prevent global warming regardless of its cause."





http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/01/exxon-mobil-climate-change-sceptics-funding

[slcdragonfan]

Who knows what to believe.





http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/01/exxon-mobil-climate-change-sceptics-funding

...there it is in a nutshell....
The question is, what is easier to believe, that the "global warmingites" are trying to overcome the world and tax us to death for nefarious purposes, or ExxonMobile is plying the airwaves to benefit their bottom line?

Again, I am not saying "those bad old oil companies" I am saying they are spending dollars to influence public opinion.

[15Adragon]

...there it is in a nutshell....
The question is, what is easier to believe, that the "global warmingites" are trying to overcome the world and tax us to death for nefarious purposes, or ExxonMobile is plying the airwaves to benefit their bottom line?

Again, I am not saying "those bad old oil companies" I am saying they are spending dollars to influence public opinion.

Just like I said last week. We are to assume that public money used for influence is pure? No motives? Come on.

Again, they had the scientists corralled for a while on this now they are fleeing the GW band wagon in droves. We can cut and paste all day and I think we will not change our positions on this one. I would like to to see open and vigorous debate on this before imposing all the garbage that the Obama administration and House Dems want to implement.

It will not be much longer before all of this is put in a Obama Economy thread. I actually thought about it, but I will give him a little longer. But for right now the news is getting worse by the day. With my wife and kids were out of town last w/e, I watched some of the "talking heads" on the economy and the Dems were clinging to the positive news on consumer confidence. Essentially that was all they had to offer. Well, the news on consumer confidence tanked this week along with jobs, etc...

Pretty soon this all will be viewed as one big mess. I hope not, but it is certainly headed in that direction.

[drgnbkr]

Just like I said last week. We are to assume that public money used for influence is pure? No motives? Come on.

Again, they had the scientists corralled for a while on this now they are fleeing the GW band wagon in droves. We can cut and paste all day and I think we will not change our positions on this one. I would like to to see open and vigorous debate on this before imposing all the garbage that the Obama administration and House Dems want to implement.

It will not be much longer before all of this is put in a Obama Economy thread. I actually thought about it, but I will give him a little longer. But for right now the news is getting worse by the day. With my wife and kids were out of town last w/e, I watched some of the "talking heads" on the economy and the Dems were clinging to the positive news on consumer confidence. Essentially that was all they had to offer. Well, the news on consumer confidence tanked this week along with jobs, etc...

Pretty soon this all will be viewed as one big mess. I hope not, but it is certainly headed in that direction.

I don't think we had almost 10% unemployment under W..I may have missed it, but I don't think so.:D...He became a big spender, and far too moderate for the 2nd half of the 2nd term, but were we better off? Hell yes! You're right, we are going to need an Obama Economy Thread because he is butchering this deal...

[DrEdward]

Evidently, the provision in question is known as REEP - Retrofit for Energy and Environmental Performance - and is indeed contained in the Senate version of the legislation. However, I have not tried to look it up.

[GoOwls]

if the wife gets the milkman, does the husband get the mailman? :confused:

If so, I guess you want to be a mailman now, huh?.....You could go clubing with Red.....:D

[GoOwls]

perhaps they need more insulation.

You just got a job....why don't you offer to pay for it for them then, wise guy.

[GoOwls]

Evidently, the provision in question is known as REEP - Retrofit for Energy and Environmental Performance - and is indeed contained in the Senate version of the legislation. However, I have not tried to look it up.

As usual, we can depend on DrEdward to be the one with some brains around here and talk with facts and not their heart or pride.

You pinkos just go ahead and make excuses....let's see how you jabber when the bills hit the fan.....:eek:

The Obamessiah....first in our hearts, and the first hand in our pocketbooks.

[cougmantx]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030144618.htm

[cougmantx]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030144618.htm


Sorry, just relized this was a double post.

[yankee]

...

[JMSFan]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030144618.htm


Sorry, just relized this was propaganda.

fify

[Dawg Fan]

fify

rotflmao!!!

[drgnbkr]

fify

:notworthy I'm trying to figure out what is making it (the earth) cooler for the past 8-10 years? They are going to have to get off of the "warming" train here pretty soon....No telling what they will come up with then.

[slcdragonfan]

:notworthy I'm trying to figure out what is making it (the earth) cooler for the past 8-10 years? They are going to have to get off of the "warming" train here pretty soon....No telling what they will come up with then.

...sunspots...
causes injuries too....:ninja:

[yankee]

:notworthy I'm trying to figure out what is making it (the earth) cooler for the past 8-10 years? They are going to have to get off of the "warming" train here pretty soon....No telling what they will come up with then.

you'd think with all the hot air the libs have blown over this global warming issue that the earth would be warming...:rolleyes:

[drgnbkr]

...sunspots...
causes injuries too....:ninja:

And football losses...:p

[15Adragon]

you'd think with all the hot air the libs have blown over this global warming issue that the earth would be warming...:rolleyes:

Does Al Gore come to mind?

[JagFan]

:notworthy I'm trying to figure out what is making it (the earth) cooler for the past 8-10 years? They are going to have to get off of the "warming" train here pretty soon....No telling what they will come up with then.

Back to the ice age that they said was happening back in the 60 and 70. They will alternate every 40 years between the two. Ice age and then back to global warming.

[pied]

Back to the ice age that they said was happening back in the 60 and 70. They will alternate every 40 years between the two. Ice age and then back to global warming.

You may be 100% accurate, I was young but recall the ice age talk in the 70's. That being said, I think that we should not stop seeking to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, building more efficient energy sources, and polluting the environment much less than we are today.

[chhspantherfan]

You may be 100% accurate, I was young but recall the ice age talk in the 70's. That being said, I think that we should not stop seeking to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, building more efficient energy sources, and polluting the environment much less than we are today.

see Dept of Energy thread;)

[JagFan]

You may be 100% accurate, I was young but recall the ice age talk in the 70's. That being said, I think that we should not stop seeking to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, building more efficient energy sources, and polluting the environment much less than we are today.

I have not seen anyone post that we should not try to achieve those things. It is how we go about that is different.

I am in full support of alternative means of energy. I have a son studying that in school.

[Firebird]

Evidently, the provision in question is known as REEP - Retrofit for Energy and Environmental Performance - and is indeed contained in the Senate version of the legislation. However, I have not tried to look it up.

Dr. Edward--

I alread discussed the REEP on this bill specifically the concerns raised by GoOwls about labeling and mandated retrofitting. Here is the realtor's association article that explains the concessions they won in the House bill specifically designed to address these issues:

http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/conne...c5ffb684cb314f

[RedRage00]

If so, I guess you want to be a mailman now, huh?.....You could go clubing with Red.....:D

I just saw this. Ugh.

[pied]

see Dept of Energy thread;)

I've seen the thread, and it simply outlines the problems. No one seems to have any solutions, but a lot have a lot of complaints. When solutions are put out there, people start yelling about Al Gore and calling people Socialists.

yipee

[RedRage00]

I've seen the thread, and it simply outlines the problems. No one seems to have any solutions, but a lot have a lot of complaints. When solutions are put out there, people start yelling about Al Gore and calling people Socialists.
yipee

Just another day in The Yard.

[drgnbkr]

I've seen the thread, and it simply outlines the problems. No one seems to have any solutions, but a lot have a lot of complaints. When solutions are put out there, people start yelling about Al Gore and calling people Socialists.

yipee

The problem is that when there is no consensus that there is a problem (warming) and people want to fix that problem in ways that impact everyone in a negative way, you end up in a box with confusing paths out of said box. I don't know of a soul who is in favor of trashing the planet, but I do know a few people who are so full of inaccurate info as to be scary. I don't really have an answer, but to just start making radical changes that effect our way of life based on opinions that have no real consensus in fact, seems a bit whacky. And I'll yell about gore long and loudly because he has an agenda to enrich himself on the backs of others, by raising a red herring called global warming.

[15Adragon]

I've seen the thread, and it simply outlines the problems. No one seems to have any solutions, but a lot have a lot of complaints. When solutions are put out there, people start yelling about Al Gore and calling people Socialists.

yipee

This has already been decided by the Empty Gas Can Administration, Congress and the NYTimes. We desperately need CAP and TAX policies so we can first systematically shutdown energy production, large industries, manufacturing and all hope of a future. Then we will figure out what to do next while taxing the heck out of anyone left producing. Sounds like a solid plan. :rolleyes:

[CoveMom]

:notworthy I'm trying to figure out what is making it (the earth) cooler for the past 8-10 years? They are going to have to get off of the "warming" train here pretty soon....No telling what they will come up with then.

Pick One (they'd all be about as right as the science at this point):


A. It's an Al Qaeda Plot

B. Al Gore needs more money to pay his Carbon Trading Bills

C. It's a Communist Plot

D. Soylent Green is People, It's People!!!!!

[JagFan]

I've seen the thread, and it simply outlines the problems. No one seems to have any solutions, but a lot have a lot of complaints. When solutions are put out there, people start yelling about Al Gore and calling people Socialists.

yipee

I think it is a two way street in that area.

[pied]

The problem is that when there is no consensus that there is a problem (warming) and people want to fix that problem in ways that impact everyone in a negative way, you end up in a box with confusing paths out of said box. I don't know of a soul who is in favor of trashing the planet, but I do know a few people who are so full of inaccurate info as to be scary. I don't really have an answer, but to just start making radical changes that effect our way of life based on opinions that have no real consensus in fact, seems a bit whacky. And I'll yell about gore long and loudly because he has an agenda to enrich himself on the backs of others, by raising a red herring called global warming.


That's why I focus on the facts. Oil is a limited resource. If we do not figure a way to wean our selves off it we are setting ourselves up for disaster, in the long run. In the short run, we are not in charge of the supply and it can hurt us economically or in our security, since many of the countries that do control the supply may not like us very much. Even if they did, we saw what financial speculation did to us with $4+/gallon gas.

Not polluting, only makes sense. You don't **** in the water you drink.

Note I said nothing about global warming myth or otherwise.

[15Adragon]

The guys pushing this garbage have no credible plan or solution. We abandoned nuclear power because we were scared of everything. We are running from cows, people, oil, drilling, etc... They are not in favor of REAL debate, and REAL solutions, just put our tools away and hope for magic.

[Firebird]

That's why I focus on the facts. Oil is a limited resource. If we do not figure a way to wean our selves off it we are setting ourselves up for disaster, in the long run. In the short run, we are not in charge of the supply and it can hurt us economically or in our security, since many of the countries that do control the supply may not like us very much. Even if they did, we saw what financial speculation did to us with $4+/gallon gas.

Not polluting, only makes sense. You don't **** in the water you drink.

Note I said nothing about global warming myth or otherwise.

Drill here, drill now. We have more than enough oil for forever to run all the SUVs we want we just need to stop China from taking it all.

[drgnbkr]

That's why I focus on the facts. Oil is a limited resource. If we do not figure a way to wean our selves off it we are setting ourselves up for disaster, in the long run. In the short run, we are not in charge of the supply and it can hurt us economically or in our security, since many of the countries that do control the supply may not like us very much. Even if they did, we saw what financial speculation did to us with $4+/gallon gas.

Not polluting, only makes sense. You don't **** in the water you drink.

Note I said nothing about global warming myth or otherwise.

We build the cleanest Nuclear Power plants in the world yet ours are 30 years old and no new ones are being built???? We burn coal as cleanly as it can be done to produce electricity, yet obama wants to bankrupt the coal industry, one of our most plentiful resources??? Who exactly wants to wean us off of oil? Sounds good but in practice, it ain't happening, especially through this bill.

[slcdragonfan]

The problem is that when there is no consensus that there is a problem (warming) and people want to fix that problem in ways that impact everyone in a negative way, you end up in a box with confusing paths out of said box. I don't know of a soul who is in favor of trashing the planet, but I do know a few people who are so full of inaccurate info as to be scary. I don't really have an answer, but to just start making radical changes that effect our way of life based on opinions that have no real consensus in fact, seems a bit whacky. And I'll yell about gore long and loudly because he has an agenda to enrich himself on the backs of others, by raising a red herring called global warming.

better start yelling at Newt as well. ;)

[pied]

We build the cleanest Nuclear Power plants in the world yet ours are 30 years old and no new ones are being built???? We burn coal as cleanly as it can be done to produce electricity, yet obama wants to bankrupt the coal industry, one of our most plentiful resources??? Who exactly wants to wean us off of oil? Sounds good but in practice, it ain't happening, especially through this bill.

Good points, foget it, where can I get a Hummer?

Yes I know how that comes across

[drgnbkr]

Good points, foget it, where can I get a Hummer?

Yes I know how that comes across

You better get one quick!:D I passed a dealership in Roundrock yesterday and they had about 10 on the lot...I think they may be headed to the Smithsonian, along with a lot of other things we take for granted.

[drgnbkr]

better start yelling at Newt as well. ;)

I'll chalk Newt's confusion up to political expediency, gores is all about greed.

[15Adragon]

I hate to be practical here but I will anyway. California could go a long way to cleaning up their budget mess by drilling offshore. There is a lot of oil sitting off the coast of Calif. They could even put a provision in place that states that reducing the dependence on this source of revenue is directly tied to the ability of the elected officials to balance the budget going forward. So if the citizens of Calif want to reduce the need for drilling for the oil then make the tough budget cuts to balance your budget so you do not need the extra revenue. You can't get your budget in line then you will need the revenue from the oil. Makes too much sense I'm sure.

[slcdragonfan]

I hate to be practical here but I will anyway. California could go a long way to cleaning up their budget mess by drilling offshore. There is a lot of oil sitting off the coast of Calif. They could even put a provision in place that states that reducing the dependence on this source of revenue is directly tied to the ability of the elected officials to balance the budget going forward. So if the citizens of Calif want to reduce the need for drilling for the oil then make the tough budget cuts to balance your budget so you do not need the extra revenue. You can't get your budget in line then you will need the revenue from the oil. Makes too much sense I'm sure.

NIMBY in full play there. Like Cape Cod (where they don't want wind turbines to spoil the view). Of course, if you recall the PEMEX mess in the Gulf, perhaps it is understandable to a point. I would say drill though, if I were a legislator.

[chhspantherfan]

drill here, drill now. We have more than enough oil for forever to run all the suvs we want we just need to stop china from taking it all.

nuke em

[dragonsdaddy]

I hate to be practical here but I will anyway. California could go a long way to cleaning up their budget mess by drilling offshore. There is a lot of oil sitting off the coast of Calif. They could even put a provision in place that states that reducing the dependence on this source of revenue is directly tied to the ability of the elected officials to balance the budget going forward. So if the citizens of Calif want to reduce the need for drilling for the oil then make the tough budget cuts to balance your budget so you do not need the extra revenue. You can't get your budget in line then you will need the revenue from the oil. Makes too much sense I'm sure.

they would prefer to be subsidized by everyone else as they slip into bankruptsy. at least they won't have anything to mess up those beautiful sunsets.

[slorch]

Good points, foget it, where can I get a Hummer?

Yes I know how that comes across

Lindsay Lohan's place?

[Firebird]

nuke em

Yeah, totally.

[ktCarl]

That's why I focus on the facts. Oil is a limited resource. If we do not figure a way to wean our selves off it we are setting ourselves up for disaster, in the long run. In the short run, we are not in charge of the supply and it can hurt us economically or in our security, since many of the countries that do control the supply may not like us very much. Even if they did, we saw what financial speculation did to us with $4+/gallon gas.

Not polluting, only makes sense. You don't **** in the water you drink.

Note I said nothing about global warming myth or otherwise.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

:D

[JagFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

:D

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy Well said

[15Adragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

:D

:Music:eek::)

[Fleeman93]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

:D

The man was/is damn good! Have no problem saying I would take his entertainment over Jacksons any day of the week. Carlin was never accused of being a pedophile was he?

[drgnbkr]

Lindsay Lohan's place?

:p

[Dawg Fan]

Carlin has a way of explaining things in a very funny and thought provoking way....his humor will be missed

[pied]

My house is slightly under that, three stories, and has windows the entire west facing side of the house(quasi A-frame). My electric bill was $188 last month.

$254 for hotter than hell June.

[pied]

Also, filled up my car for the first time since 6/18 and got 38.43 mpg on that last tank. My highest mpg since buying the car.

[dragonsdaddy]

Also, filled up my car for the first time since 6/18 and got 38.43 mpg on that last tank. My highest mpg since buying the car.

that's not bad. also must be nice to work from your well-insulated home. your significant digits tells us something about you too, methinks.

[pied]

that's not bad. also must be nice to work from your well-insulated home. your significant digits tells us something about you too, methinks.

Live in Flower Mound, work five, sometimes six days a week in Irving. I have been out of town a bit since the last fill up so that contributed. Filled up three times in June and twice in May. Not certain what digits you are talking about though.

[dragonsdaddy]

Live in Flower Mound, work five, sometimes six days a week in Irving. I have been out of town a bit since the last fill up so that contributed. Filled up three times in June and twice in May. Not certain what digits you are talking about though.

computing a mpg to the hunredth of a mile???? there are too many variables to be that accurate, imo.

[pied]

computing a mpg to the hunredth of a mile???? there are too many variables to be that accurate, imo.

I know it's not 100% accurate, I have every receipt except the one from between fill-ups on 12/31/07 and 1/24/08. I cerated a spreadsheet and track it. Basically miles since last fill up divided by the gallons needed to fill up. I try and fill up at the same tank each time and do so in the AM, to get consistent data. Simply plug the date, ending mileage, gallons of fas and $/gallon in and I get the number.

Is it accurate to the hundredth of a mile? Likely not, is it pretty close? For me it is close enough.

Also interesting to see the rise and fall of gas prices.

For the last five tanks, I have averaged 37.23 mp, 34.47mpg since buying the car.

[15Adragon]

Also, filled up my car for the first time since 6/18 and got 38.43 mpg on that last tank. My highest mpg since buying the car.

That is twice what my wife and kids got on a trip to Atlanta last week in the SUV. :eek:

Gas is down under 2.20 a gallon. That is good news! :D

[dragonsdaddy]

That is twice what my wife and kids got on a trip to Atlanta last week in the SUV. :eek:

Gas is down under 2.20 a gallon. That is good news! :D

2.14 with a kroger card on macarthur in irving.

[pied]

2.14 with a kroger card on macarthur in irving.

$2.319 at the Exxon in Flower Mound. It was around $2.50 in New Mexico.

[15Adragon]

$2.319 at the Exxon in Flower Mound. It was around $2.50 in New Mexico.

We were in NM in June and they had the 86 and 88 octane gas but not 87...

[JOH]

$2.05 at a Texaco in spring. :cool:

[pied]

We were in NM in June and they had the 86 and 88 octane gas but not 87...

It was a rental, so I got the cheapest they had, didn't bother looking at the octane.

[mad_fan]

$254 for hotter than hell June.

$110* in the mad household...in San Angelo...;)
*-included $50 loyalty discount from the billing company...

[15Adragon]

$2.05 at a Texaco in spring. :cool:

2.22 at the SL Costco.

[pied]

Not quite, but my house is built into a hill, giving me a quasi basement. 16" ICF all the way around, the foundation if you will. The HVAC for the bottome two floors, is in the corner, so almost all underground. Makes a BIG difference when your AC unit is in 75 degree or so comfort as opposed to a 150 degree attic. Like I said the remainder is a quasi A-frame, with spray foam insulation, all the way up the walls and roof. The roof was built w/a ridge vent and radiant barrier roofing. The third story is cooled/heated with the unit in the attic. Still gets hot up there, but it's reduced quite a bit.

Very tall windows(double paned-gas filled) that run the entire west side, but also have black out blinds that are down most afternoons. My septic is aerobic one which waters some of the lawn, and we don't have access to gas, so run on propane currently. Lots of trees as well help shade the home.

One thing I thin helps is that on my main floor the AC vents are on the ground. I can keep it warmer, but still have the cold air blowing on my feet. I understand that most homes aren't built like that, but I am lucky in that aspect.

Curious as to what this month's bill might be.

[GoOwls]

computing a mpg to the hunredth of a mile???? there are too many variables to be that accurate, imo.

OCD tendencies, methinks.....;)

[b756561]

For the last five tanks, I have averaged 37.23 mp, 34.47mpg since buying the car.

Better than what I get. Since buying it, my BMW has only averaged 24.7mpg. That is quite a bit less than what you get, what do you drive? On the other hand, my old Chevelle gets about 5 gallons to the mile. :D

[pied]

Better than what I get. Since buying it, my BMW has only averaged 24.7mpg. That is quite a bit less than what you get, what do you drive? On the other hand, my old Chevelle gets about 5 gallons to the mile. :D

I traded my TL for a Honda Fit almot two years ago. Filled up again yesterday, 37.55 for the previous tank. Paid $2.18/gallon. Average for the last five tanks is 37.37 and 34.52 since I've purchased the car.

[pied]

I hate to be practical here but I will anyway. California could go a long way to cleaning up their budget mess by drilling offshore. There is a lot of oil sitting off the coast of Calif. They could even put a provision in place that states that reducing the dependence on this source of revenue is directly tied to the ability of the elected officials to balance the budget going forward. So if the citizens of Calif want to reduce the need for drilling for the oil then make the tough budget cuts to balance your budget so you do not need the extra revenue. You can't get your budget in line then you will need the revenue from the oil. Makes too much sense I'm sure.


The deal to close California's $26 billion budget deficit included a plan to drill for offshore oil, drawing allegations that the fiscal crisis was used for a backroom deal following rejection of the idea by state regulators earlier this year.

Democrats agreed to Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's request to expand drilling from an existing platform off Santa Barbara to generate a one-time $100 million advance royalty payment this fiscal year and an estimated $1.8 billion in royalties over 14 years.

It would be the first new offshore oil drilling on state lands in four decades since a blowout on a platform off Santa Barbara coated miles of ocean and shoreline and galvanized opposition.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/32078689

[15Adragon]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/32078689

Amazing. :D

[drgnbkr]

Amazing. :D

California gets a blinding flash of the obvious! Good for them!

[15Adragon]

Warning: Cut and Paste attack. ;)

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=104031&cat=12

The Science and Public Policy Institute (http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/) announces the publication of Climate Money, a study (http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/originals/climate_money.html) by Joanne Nova revealing that the federal Government has a near-monopsony on climate science funding. This distorts the science towards self-serving alarmism. Key findings:

Ø The US Government has spent more than $79 billion of taxpayers’ money since 1989 on policies related to climate change, including science and technology research, administration, propaganda campaigns, foreign aid, and tax breaks. Most of this spending was unnecessary.

Ø Despite the billions wasted, audits of the science are left to unpaid volunteers. A dedicated but largely uncoordinated grassroots movement of scientists has sprung up around the globe to test the integrity of “global warming” theory and to compete with a lavishly-funded, highly-organized climate monopsony. Major errors have been exposed again and again.

Ø Carbon trading worldwide reached $126 billion in 2008. Banks, which profit most, are calling for more. Experts are predicting the carbon market will reach $2 - $10 trillion in the near future. Hot air will soon be the largest single commodity traded on global exchanges.

Ø Meanwhile, in a distracting sideshow, Exxon-Mobil Corp is repeatedly attacked for paying just $23 million to skeptics—less than a thousandth of what the US government spends on alarmists, and less than one five-thousandth of the value of carbon trading in 2008 alone.

Ø The large expenditure designed to prove the non-existent connection between carbon and climate has created a powerful alliance of self-serving vested interests.

Ø By pouring so much money into pushing a single, scientifically-baseless agenda, the Government has created not an unbiased investigation but a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ø Sound science cannot easily survive the vice-like grip of politics and finance.

[pied]

Brilliant analysis.


My favorite:

Ø The US Government has spent more than $79 billion of taxpayers’ money since 1989 on policies related to climate change, including science and technology research, administration, propaganda campaigns, foreign aid, and tax breaks. Most of this spending was unnecessary.

If you say so.....