Do the euros have it right when it comes to sports?

[pied]

I am a huge HS/college sports fan, but wonder sometimes if the euros, and for tha matter the South Americans. They don't really have school teams. It's all about the club. Each town/city may have one or more. No complaints about recruiting, everyone is paid or recruited or something.

At the professional level, there is no whining about big market small market, the top league is made up of a certain number of teams. If you are in the bottom three, you go down the next season(relegated). You likely lose a ton of advertising revenue, better do better the following season.

There are some towns/cities/clubs that are happy to compete in the third/fourth division. I imagine there are plenty of people who have their loyalties to the lower division team and highest division team.

In addition, you have a season that the best team overall wins the title, not just the hottest team. You also have a playoff going on at the same time. What might something like that look like? What if the NFL expanded to 40 teams, with two divisions of twenty each? The NBA? MLB? Easiest to see would be the NBA. Eliminate the age requirement and you're almost there.

Thoughts?

[stevefoxsc]

its a good bad thing in some ways

[BDB]

this should get good.

[ChanSHS]

Many of those European teams are in huge debt too, but nobody mentions that.

[slorch]

I am a huge HS/college sports fan, but wonder sometimes if the euros, and for tha matter the South Americans. They don't really have school teams. It's all about the club. Each town/city may have one or more. No complaints about recruiting, everyone is paid or recruited or something.

At the professional level, there is no whining about big market small market, the top league is made up of a certain number of teams. If you are in the bottom three, you go down the next season(relegated). You likely lose a ton of advertising revenue, better do better the following season.

There are some towns/cities/clubs that are happy to compete in the third/fourth division. I imagine there are plenty of people who have their loyalties to the lower division team and highest division team.

In addition, you have a season that the best team overall wins the title, not just the hottest team. You also have a playoff going on at the same time. What might something like that look like? What if the NFL expanded to 40 teams, with two divisions of twenty each? The NBA? MLB? Easiest to see would be the NBA. Eliminate the age requirement and you're almost there.

Thoughts?

No they flop all the time and whine like scalded pigs...

they also don't play football that's worth a damn.

[twcpfan1]

I am a huge HS/college sports fan, but wonder sometimes if the euros, and for tha matter the South Americans. They don't really have school teams. It's all about the club. Each town/city may have one or more. No complaints about recruiting, everyone is paid or recruited or something.

At the professional level, there is no whining about big market small market, the top league is made up of a certain number of teams. If you are in the bottom three, you go down the next season(relegated). You likely lose a ton of advertising revenue, better do better the following season.

There are some towns/cities/clubs that are happy to compete in the third/fourth division. I imagine there are plenty of people who have their loyalties to the lower division team and highest division team.

In addition, you have a season that the best team overall wins the title, not just the hottest team. You also have a playoff going on at the same time. What might something like that look like? What if the NFL expanded to 40 teams, with two divisions of twenty each? The NBA? MLB? Easiest to see would be the NBA. Eliminate the age requirement and you're almost there.

Thoughts?

Your first paragraph pretty much kills the European argument. No school teams is why sports suck at every level in Europe under the pro major league. If your entire system is based on the betterment of pro sports, you've already failed.

[pied]

Your first paragraph pretty much kills the European argument. No school teams is why sports suck at every level in Europe under the pro major league. If your entire system is based on the betterment of pro sports, you've already failed.

Not a bad point and one that I would not like. It's not hard to imagine that some of te bigger schools would be some of the bigger sports clubs. They a;ready have the infrastructure for several sports, a following, and lots of money. Stop the draft right now and how long before Texas, let's say could be competitive in Basketball or Football?

[JagFan]

I do not want to be like Europe. We are America.

[slorch]

I do not want to be like Europe. We are America.

please forward to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington, DC, USA!

[pied]

I do not want to be like Europe. We are America.

Interesting. So in Europe you compete in the top league because you are the best team. You develop the players you want to are are held accountable for it. If you win, great. If not you are relegated.

In America, the leadership establishes that a new team will be there. We force all the other teams to give them players, we cap the amount you can pay, we cap the age you can sign a player, if you are not competitive and don't earn a lot of money, don't fret the system is designed to share revenue to keep you afloat.

It seems when it comes to sports, we would rather be like the things we don't like about Europe.

[slorch]

Interesting. So in Europe you compete in the top league because you are the best team. You develop the players you want to are are held accountable for it. If you win, great. If not you are relegated.

In America, the leadership establishes that a new team will be there. We force all the other teams to give them players, we cap the amount you can pay, we cap the age you can sign a player, if you are not competitive and don't earn a lot of money, don't fret the system is designed to share revenue to keep you afloat.

It seems when it comes to sports, we would rather be like the things we don't like about Europe.

Any of our 3 major leagues in dire financial straits?

thought so...

[pied]

Any of our 3 major leagues in dire financial straits?

thought so...

This really isn't about finances, but I do know that several of the teams are in trouble. I imagine all sports/entertainment options are a bit down at this point.

[mad_fan]

I do not want to be like Europe. We are America.

I don't know...the club mentality might make us fans behave more like the Euro and South American fans...that'd be a plus...right???

[pied]

You mean having passionate fans that care about their team as opposed to guys there on the corporate dime looking to close a sale?

Could be a plus.

[mad_fan]

You mean having passionate fans that care about their team as opposed to guys there on the corporate dime looking to close a sale?

Could be a plus.

Fires...riots...beatings...I'm talking true FANS...unlike we have here...

[twcpfan1]

Not a bad point and one that I would not like. It's not hard to imagine that some of te bigger schools would be some of the bigger sports clubs. They a;ready have the infrastructure for several sports, a following, and lots of money. Stop the draft right now and how long before Texas, let's say could be competitive in Basketball or Football?

Yes you are correct. But I do believe that if they compete as clubs and not as schools, they can bring in any athlete they want. They do not have to be enrolled at that school. In Europe and Australia, certain high schools are essentially farm teams for the pros. You should see the recruiting that go on at the HS level. As well as the influence the pro clubs have on how the schools' football programs are run. Something tacky and sleazy about that to me.

[pied]

Yes you are correct. But I do believe that if they compete as clubs and not as schools, they can bring in any athlete they want. They do not have to be enrolled at that school. In Europe and Australia, certain high schools are essentially farm teams for the pros. You should see the recruiting that go on at the HS level. As well as the influence the pro clubs have on how the schools' football programs are run. Something tacky and sleazy about that to me.

Most clubs have farm teams starting at a very young age that are not real HS's, simply sports teams. They go to school, but they represent the team not the school. Some sports do this already, and some are very close. Look at softball, volleyball,basketball, adn soccer. The club or AAU teams are more important than the HS's for ettnig scholarships in most cases.

FC Dallas is one of several MLS team with a development squad. They compete with other select soccer teams, but unlike their counterparts they do not charge a fee and are free to the team members. They are not allowed to compete for anyone else, however including their HS team.

[15Adragon]

i do not want to be like europe. We are america.

this.

[JagFan]

please forward to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington, DC, USA!

I have, they are not listening.

[JagFan]

Interesting. So in Europe you compete in the top league because you are the best team. You develop the players you want to are are held accountable for it. If you win, great. If not you are relegated.

In America, the leadership establishes that a new team will be there. We force all the other teams to give them players, we cap the amount you can pay, we cap the age you can sign a player, if you are not competitive and don't earn a lot of money, don't fret the system is designed to share revenue to keep you afloat.

It seems when it comes to sports, we would rather be like the things we don't like about Europe.

In America each team plays by the same rules. I like how our sports system is set up. Except the BCS.

[pied]

In America each team plays by the same rules. I like how our sports system is set up. Except the BCS.

So you like your sports socialist.

[pied]

Here’s a scenario to consider. Assume we relegate the bottom four teams in the NBA to the college ranks and promote the top four college teams.

The bottom six of the NBA:


Minnesota 24-58
Memphis 24-58

OK City 23-59
Washington 19-63
LA Clippers 19-63
Sacramento 17-69

You would have had a battle for the last spot with OKC/Minn/Memphis.

The top four of the NCAA(ranked):

Louisville
Memphis
North Carolina
Pittsburgh

You would have the NBA Memphis team going down and the Memphis college team moving up. Kind of funny.

In the meantime, you could have a season long tournament with all the NCAA teams and NBA teams, similar it the FA Cup etc.

[KT2000]

no they flop all the time and whine like scalded pigs...

nba

[Firebird]

The major downside to the European model is that there is not a very high level of organized youth sports unless you are one of the few that are good enough/can afford to play on the sponsored club teams. Not every school has sports teams that are essentially free to play on once you hit seventh grade. That being said, I don't think it's sleazy at all-- everything is above ground and those young athletes that show special talent are funneled into the club level teams, while those that don't are steered into other directions for their lives. It's a different mentality. Many Europeans are befuddled at the American desire to have all kids, even the ones that show no real talent for sport, play on a highly organized and highly competitive team. Just like we find it strange that they don't want their kids to have that experience even if the kid isn't really a great talent.

That being said, there is a MUCH higher level of sports culture at the unoffical level in Europe, even with the youth but especially with adults and young adults. Intramural and amateur sports clubs at universities are often quite developed, and kids are outside playing sports all the time even if they aren't in uniform. There isn't quite the obsession with regimintation and organization, the attitude is that unless you are shooting for making a career of sports, there's no reason to take a game very seriously. I honestly don't see a qualitative difference between the two, although I do wish that there in the states the sandlot baseball game was not a thing of the past.

With regards to pro sports, I am always in favor of markets and competition....there is no more socialist organization in America than the NFL....:D

[KT2000]

The American structure is completely unique, and that has both postives and negatives. The world structure in soccer varies from place to place. I like the variety. I definitely think there are things the US leagues could take from the major soccer leagues in Europe, just as there are many things they can learn from us.

High level ownership is a relatively new phenomena in the soccer world. Soccer has only recently exploded in the corporate sense. This decade has completely changed the game with the huge cash infusion into the game. They are experiencing what the major American sports did in the 80s.

When I was growing up there was no such thing as digital cable, the WWW was a foreign concept, and there was very little exposure to any of the non-American sports save for hockey outside of the Olympics.

Soccer, being the world sport it is, has exploded right along with globalization.

As a kid, I played little league baseball like most other kids because that was our culture at the time. I wanted to play football but wasn't allowed until later. Obviously, the culture in other places is different. For most of the world, soccer is it.

I've been turned off from the major American sports to a certain degree because of the corporate influence. It's lost its charm. The major European leagues are starting to experience this, especially the English league, but the club roots still remain in the respective communities. Because of the way the drafts, free agency, moves etc. works in this country; it is much harder to strongly identify with the local team. You don't have the homegrown aspect that you will find in major European clubs. Competing for your country actually means something in soccer and that is also very appealing to me. It has become a side show here. There is nothing cool about representing your country in major American sports and that is a total shame.

[JagFan]

So you like your sports socialist.

:rolleyes: Repeat, I do not want to be like Europe. Does the US need to make some changes yes. But we can do that without Europe.

[KT2000]

:rolleyes: Repeat, I do not want to be like Europe. Does the US need to make some changes yes. But we can do that without Europe.

They absolutely wipe the floor with us in the area of patriotism these days. Who would have guessed that 20 years ago?

[JagFan]

They absolutely wipe the floor with us in the area of patriotism these days. Who would have guessed that 20 years ago?

Not me.

[KT2000]

Not me.

Remember when things like this used to happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvpxVE_kQXg

That's the kind of passion I miss in major American sports, but I see it in others beyond our borders. I know everybody won't like the same sport, but this is the kind of thing I look for. The passion and sense of community. The feeling that you are a part of something bigger than yourself. I no longer get that from major American sports. College sports are as close as it gets to that level of passion any more.

[pied]

One of the coolest sporting experiences I have had was watching the US vs. Mexico at the Cotton Bowl. That includes many Texas-ou games, and the Rose Bowls vs. Michigan and USC. Not necessarily better, but different.

[cajun]

I don't watch enough "Euro" sports or even care enough about "Euro" sports to have an opinion...

LSU keep me pretty busy....:cool:

[JagFan]

Remember when things like this used to happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvpxVE_kQXg

That's the kind of passion I miss in major American sports, but I see it in others beyond our borders. I know everybody won't like the same sport, but this is the kind of thing I look for. The passion and sense of community. The feeling that you are a part of something bigger than yourself. I no longer get that from major American sports. College sports are as close as it gets to that level of passion any more.

Or after 9/11 and President Bush was speaking to the nation and the fans at a hockey game made them delay the game so they could watch. Or after 9/11 when the sports teams went back to playing and the American Flag was everywhere. I wish we could have that passion all the time. On Memorial Day only about a 1/4 of the houses in my neighborhood flew a flag.

[pied]

JagFan, what are your objections, besides that the system is from Europe? Do you not like the idea that teams may fall into a different league if they do not win enough?

[JagFan]

JagFan, what are your objections, besides that the system is from Europe? Do you not like the idea that teams may fall into a different league if they do not win enough?

They don't really have school teams. Your quote.

I am not happy that a family of four can no longer go to a professional sporting event without taking out a second mortage. And college sports are quickly catching up to that. I love the high school sports. I do not want that changed.

[Maroondog]

I don't want to do anything like the Euros do, but beyond that, what level of competition do you want to see?

The talent level in pro sports here is about as diluted as I'd want , given the prices of tickets and attending games.

[cajun]

Do you not like the idea that teams may fall into a different league if they do not win enough?

A Losers League?...How can this be good?

[Firebird]

A Losers League?...How can this be good?

It's actually more like a minor league, except that the teams can move back and forth. If a minor league club gets good enough and a major league team gets bad enough, they can switch places. If nothing else it would teach JJ and Al Davis a lesson about meddling in things they know nothing about.

[pied]

I don't watch enough "Euro" sports or even care enough about "Euro" sports to have an opinion...

LSU keep me pretty busy....:cool:

LSU could be like Texas. Big succesful school with lots of $$ and support. Basically all the sports would be a free for all and the best teams play in the best leagues.

There is no draft. You recruit and pay the players you want to play for you. Typically there is some local flavor to the team, although you certainly would want to get some of the best players from other areas or countries. You get a points for a win, or tie and the team at the end of the seaon with the most points is champ. During the season, all the teams of a certain size and larger are playing a knock out type tournament. Cool to win one, even better to win both.

[pied]

A Losers League?...How can this be good?

Great question. In most countries almost every town has a team. Some of the smaller towns and I assume many are happy to compete in the fourth division. Much like your divisions in HS football. LA seems to fit well. There are many small private schools happy to play small schools. Some like ECA, for example has the ability and desire to play at the top level.



***************************this was post 7,000********************************

[pied]

From Wikipedia:

The Football League, established in 1888 by Aston Villa director William McGregor, was the first professional football league in the world. Since its founding, however, many other leagues have been founded in England. Over the years there has been an increasing effort to link all these leagues together in a Pyramidal structure allowing promotion and relegation between different levels. The primary motivation for this drive is to maintain the possibility that any club in England may dream of one day rising to the very top, no matter what status they currently hold. In a study made by FIFA in 2006 there are around 40,000 clubs registered with the FA, which is 11,000 more than any other country, the closest being the Brazilian Football Confederation who have 29,000 registered clubs. Even without taking relative population into account, England has more football clubs than any other country in the world.

[cajun]

It's actually more like a minor league, except that the teams can move back and forth. If a minor league club gets good enough and a major league team gets bad enough, they can switch places. If nothing else it would teach JJ and Al Davis a lesson about meddling in things they know nothing about.

So, if I am an All-Star (whatever sports we are talking about, no clue) and my team sucks I get sent to the minors...Maybe they don't have All Stars in "euro", I dunno..

Yeah, I like that.. (lol)

[pied]

So, if I am an All-Star (whatever sports we are talking about, no clue) and my team sucks I get sent to the minors...Maybe they don't have All Stars in "euro", I dunno..

Yeah, I like that.. (lol)

I am not an expert, but when a team is relegated they lose a lot of $$, and they have to shed payroll. It may be that a contract is written that if a team falls below, the player can leave.

[cajun]

I am not an expert, but when a team is relegated they lose a lot of $$, and they have to shed payroll. It may be that a contract is written that if a team falls below, the player can leave.

So, maybe all the good players go to the good teams and make them even better while the teams that lose get worse and shipped to the LL (Loser League)....How do the "losers" ever get back to the winners league...They almost broke on top of it...:D

I might have to pay better attention to the euro's ways of things, I'd pull for all the losers to make it back!!

[Firebird]

So, maybe all the good players go to the good teams and make them even better while the teams that lose get worse and shipped to the LL (Loser League)....How do the "losers" ever get back to the winners league...They almost broke on top of it...:D

I might have to pay better attention to the euro's ways of things, I'd pull for all the losers to make it back!!

That's generally how it works. What is strange is that we here in America appear to like a system better that has no real punishment for losers other than the loss of the trophy (revenue sharing) and wealth redistribution and affirmative action for loser ball clubs (the draft).

[slorch]

If I could change one thing in American sports it would be to either remove "amateur" status of college athletes or make the NFL and NBA grow a sack and have their own minor leagues.

i love college football, but you cannot convince me kids aren't getting paid under the table or benefitting some way when they pick a certain school. There is too much money floating around and too many folks that willing to spend it in order to have bragging rights.

Other than that, I love how the NFL is ran. I don't like the recent advancement of guaranteed money, as there is nothing worse than watching a slacker die on the vine in the NBA after getting that huge contract. i recognize the risk for the players, especially in football, so I guess I can live with the guaranteed contracts, but I sure did like the old days when a coach would a cut a guy in a heartbeat if they didn't perform.

I just don't like the wink/ nod system when college football/ basketball and so-called "rules violations" come up. You're kidding yourself if you think your school isn't cheating, even if indirectly, if they are competitive in a major conference. Silence is acceptance. They accept a lot of activities...we as fans are guilty of looking the other way too.

[stevefoxsc]

I do not want to be like Europe. We are America.

pst i dont know if you know this, but european standards have surpassed a lot of american ones...


In essence its kinda like saying i dont want to live in a house i want to live in a mud hut.

Were not the same america we were years ago...

[cajun]

That's generally how it works. What is strange is that we here in America appear to like a system better that has no real punishment for losers other than the loss of the trophy (revenue sharing) and wealth redistribution and affirmative action for loser ball clubs (the draft).

Why should the losers be punished at all, I don't get it...If it weren't for the losers there wouldn't any winners....

Do we want leagues where everyone is 8-8?...

Losers (USA) do have options though and from I've read here losers don't have very many in "euro"-you get busted to a loser's league, lose your best players and money on top of it ...Man!

[JagFan]

pst i dont know if you know this, but european standards have surpassed a lot of american ones...


In essence its kinda like saying i dont want to live in a house i want to live in a mud hut.
Were not the same america we were years ago...

No it is not. It is saying that I am tired of people saying we need to be more like Europe. I don't. If you want to be like Europe then move there.

[JagFan]

pst i dont know if you know this, but european standards have surpassed a lot of american ones...

In essence its kinda like saying i dont want to live in a house i want to live in a mud hut.

Were not the same america we were years ago...

In what?

[Firebird]

In what?

Infant mortality....

[pied]

Why should the losers be punished at all, I don't get it...If it weren't for the losers there wouldn't any winners....

Do we want leagues where everyone is 8-8?...

Losers (USA) do have options though and from I've read here losers don't have very many in "euro"-you get busted to a loser's league, lose your best players and money on top of it ...Man!

Looking at the EPL, the top laegue in England, the top 5 were:

Manchester United 28-6-4
Liverpool 25-11-2
Chelsea 25-8-5
Arsenal 20-12-6
Everton 17-12-9


The bottom 5:

Sunderland 9-9-20
Hull City 8-11-19
Newacstle United 7-13-18
Middlesbrough 7-11-20
West Bromwich Albion 8-8-22

Meanwhile, the Wolverhampton Wanderers, Birmingham, adn Burnley will be replacing the bottom three.

If the "losers" lose players, guess who may pick them up? In addition, the etams relegated caould be right back up if they are succesful.

[cajun]

Looking at the EPL, the top laegue in England, the top 5 were:

Manchester United 28-6-4
Liverpool 25-11-2
Chelsea 25-8-5
Arsenal 20-12-6
Everton 17-12-9


The bottom 5:

Sunderland 9-9-20
Hull City 8-11-19
Newacstle United 7-13-18
Middlesbrough 7-11-20
West Bromwich Albion 8-8-22

Meanwhile, the Wolverhampton Wanderers, Birmingham, adn Burnley will be replacing the bottom three.

If the "losers" lose players, guess who may pick them up? In addition, the etams relegated caould be right back up if they are succesful.

Detroit Lions-cya!

Bye Bye Chiefs and Rams too!...Been fun knowing you...(lol)

[slorch]

Infant mortality....

a nation that supports abortion has no concern there...

[pied]

Fires...riots...beatings...I'm talking true FANS...unlike we have here...

'Angry' Man Utd fan kills four in bus attack

(CNN) -- A man "angered" by Manchester United's defeat to Barcelona in the final of the Champions League killed four people when he drove a minibus into a crowd celebrating the Spanish side's victory, police in Nigeria have told CNN.

Ten people were also injured in the incident in the town of Ogbo, where the driver was subsequently arrested, a Port Harcourt Police spokesperson said.

"He was displaying his anger at his team losing the match. The driver had passed the crowd then made a U-turn and ran into them," spokesperson Rita Inomey-Abbey said.

Both Manchester United and Barcelona have a large fan base across the African continent, with millions tuning in to watch European football on a weekly basis.

Meanwhile, more than 100 people were arrested in Barcelona city center in the early hours of Thursday morning following the Catalan team's 2-0 victory in Rome in the final of Europe's top club
Police arrested 119 young people after violence flared at a special celebration party in Place de Catalunya near the Las Ramblas thoroughfare, while 238 people suffered minor injuries.

City officials estimated the damage at up to 100,000 euros ($140,000) as the youths attacked police with bottles and damaged shops, parks and public utilities such as lamp-posts.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/05/28/nigeria.death.united.barcelona/index.html

Interestingthat the incident was in Nigeria, not Spain/England/Italy.

[pied]

Bringing this thread up from WAY back. Kind of as a tangent from firebird's "first soccer game" thread.

On the radio this AM they were talking about teams potenatilly moving, Minnesota Vikings/Sacramento Kings/someone else. Promotion/relegation would appear to solve that problem as well.

Thoughts?

[slorch]

nba

Euro influence is substantial...at least on the flopping part.