Obama releases "harsh treatment" Photos

[drgnbkr]

And the hit's just keep on coming..it is wonderful to see how our leader is working overtime to keep us safe...released to the ACLU no less..that bastion of Americanism!:eek:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/obama-adminis-3.html

[JagFan]

Wonder if he will be as transparent with his documents? And are they going to release all the memos pertaining to the interrogations? I will wait and see how he plays this. Could be very interesting.

[drgnbkr]

Wonder if he will be as transparent with his documents? And are they going to release all the memos pertaining to the interrogations? I will wait and see how he plays this. Could be very interesting.

So far they are releasing only the most damaging files. Nothing released about how well the so-called "harsh treatment" worked. Which by the way Pelosi and the rest knew about. This is why Cheney wants all of the files released. If they are going to blow our entire apparatus and morale at the intelligence services, he believes they should get the whole story out. This becomes a bigger cluster ___ every day.

[JagFan]

So far they are releasing only the most damaging files. Nothing released about how well the so-called "harsh treatment" worked. Which by the way Pelosi and the rest knew about. This is why Cheney wants all of the files released. If they are going to blow our entire apparatus and morale at the intelligence services, he believes they should get the whole story out. This becomes a bigger cluster ___ every day.

Yes they did, except she can't make up her mind if she was in those meetings or not. She is either stupid or thinks we are. I know the answer.

While the media is definitely for Obama there are to many reporters that want the big story and will file freedom of information request and make a big enough stink they will have to release all the memos pertaining to it.

No matter how this turns out our people out in the field will suffer and now terrorist around the world know if caught they get to hold hands and have tea.

Like I said it will be very interesting to see what happens with this.

[KLH75287]

This administration has become a small circus in the first 100 days. I'm guessing we will be at 3 Ring status by the end of the first year, with three more to go.

[tayb]

Good. Let the whole country see the wrong we have done and let us never do it again. Ever.

[drgnbkr]

This administration has become a small circus in the first 100 days. I'm guessing we will be at 3 Ring status by the end of the first year, with three more to go.

As I've said before, if it weren't so scary, it would be hilarious. Obama has no experience whatsoever and it is showing more and more everyday, his supposed expert on foreign affairs, biden is completely clueless and our seasoned agents and their morale are paying the price.

[drgnbkr]

Good. Let the whole country see the wrong we have done and let us never do it again. Ever.

Right....:rolleyes: Those poor terrorists..we're just so mean to them...

[tayb]

Right....:rolleyes: Those poor terrorists..we're just so mean to them...

So you have no problem with torture?

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waterboarding-2-water-boarding-torture-interrogation-above-the-law-blog.jpg

I guess I'm un-American but I don't think torture is right.

[Firebird]

My only question is this...if you really don't mind what happened, then why do you have such a huge problem with releasing information about it and talking about it?

Heading off objection number one at the pass......it's safe to assume that terrorists around the world are already more than aware of the interrogation tactics they might come up against should they fall into enemy hands. Most of them are from countries that (and we should bear this in mind) do far worse...

[the_phoenix612]

So you have no problem with torture?

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waterboarding-2-water-boarding-torture-interrogation-above-the-law-blog.jpg

I guess I'm un-American but I don't think torture is right.

Apparently Sean Hannity said waterboarding was "no big deal", so Keith Olbermann offered him 1000 dollars to the charity of his choice for every second he could withstand it, with the offer to double the total if Hannity admitted he feared for his life.

No word yet from Hannity.

[JagFan]

So you have no problem with torture?

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waterboarding-2-water-boarding-torture-interrogation-above-the-law-blog.jpg

I guess I'm un-American but I don't think torture is right.

I had a close friend put it to me this way. If someone broke into your house and threatened to kill your family and you knew they knew of other people wanting to kill your family what would you do? That is how these agents think of America it is home and American citizens are their family.

No, nobody likes the thought of torture and extreme measures should only be taken very rarely. But when and if all the memos come out I am very interested in seeing what info was produced and how it saved American lives.

Releasing these photos and memos is the lefts way of trying to get Bush and Chaney. The problem is it will blow up in their face if all is released. They need to focus on the problems at hand and quit looking back because the future will bite them if they don't.

Nobody said you are unamerican. It is a difficult issue and we all stuggle with it. I just think Obama is opening a can of worms were nobody wins except the terrorist. Just my opinion.

[pied]

So far they are releasing only the most damaging files. Nothing released about how well the so-called "harsh treatment" worked. Which by the way Pelosi and the rest knew about. This is why Cheney wants all of the files released. If they are going to blow our entire apparatus and morale at the intelligence services, he believes they should get the whole story out. This becomes a bigger cluster ___ every day.

Just to be clear, they are relaeasing what has been requested and the courts have ordered them to. I assume at this point the rest would follow suit if requested. Could be wrong though.

I would be interested in both being released.

[the_phoenix612]

I had a close friend put it to me this way. If someone broke into your house and threatened to kill your family and you knew they knew of other people wanting to kill your family what would you do? That is how these agents think of America it is home and American citizens are their family.

No, nobody likes the thought of torture and extreme measures should only be taken very rarely. But when and if all the memos come out I am very interested in seeing what info was produced and how it saved American lives.

Releasing these photos and memos is the lefts way of trying to get Bush and Chaney. The problem is it will blow up in their face if all is released. They need to focus on the problems at hand and quit looking back because the future will bite them if they don't.

Nobody said you are unamerican. It is a difficult issue and we all stuggle with it. I just think Obama is opening a can of worms were nobody wins except the terrorist. Just my opinion.

The fact that we have rules and we follow them is what makes us the good guys.

The fact that we came together as a global community and said "we will not do these things" is what delineated the Righteous and Wholesome West from the Godless Barbarian East.

[drgnbkr]

Water boarding is not torture. It is used as training for some of our own forces. Beheading people is what you might call an extreme form of torture..that is what we are up against..so no, I have no problem with waterboarding whatsoever. It has been very effective at avoiding a repeat of 9-11 in LA...that is what is important. And I love the Hannity / Olbermann reference..they have as much to do with it as we do...

[pied]

Nobody said you are unamerican. It is a difficult issue and we all stuggle with it. I just think Obama is opening a can of worms were nobody wins except the terrorist. Just my opinion.


I agree and admit that I am conflicted. I have stated this before, but as I grow in my faith I try to ask myself what Jesus would do in these situations.

What do you think? Would Jesus water board?

[JagFan]

The fact that we have rules and we follow them is what makes us the good guys.

The fact that we came together as a global community and said "we will not do these things" is what delineated the Righteous and Wholesome West from the Godless Barbarian East.

Bush did not invent waterboarding. It has been used a long time and if you think differently then maybe these things need to be released.

I am very torn about this whole thing and that is why I am interested in ALL memos being released. Let's see what they say before we decide what is really right and what is really wrong. Because I gotta feeling we do not and may never know the whole story.

[tayb]

I had a close friend put it to me this way. If someone broke into your house and threatened to kill your family and you knew they knew of other people wanting to kill your family what would you do? That is how these agents think of America it is home and American citizens are their family.

No, nobody likes the thought of torture and extreme measures should only be taken very rarely. But when and if all the memos come out I am very interested in seeing what info was produced and how it saved American lives.

Releasing these photos and memos is the lefts way of trying to get Bush and Chaney. The problem is it will blow up in their face if all is released. They need to focus on the problems at hand and quit looking back because the future will bite them if they don't.

Nobody said you are unamerican. It is a difficult issue and we all stuggle with it. I just think Obama is opening a can of worms were nobody wins except the terrorist. Just my opinion.

Here in America you are innocent until proven guilty. You are not guilty until we torture you to the point where you confess. That is not how it works. You do not get to torture. We do not torture. This is not Afghanistan. This is the United States of America. Torture goes against anything and everything this country stands for.

If you don't have a problem with torture happening then you shouldn't have a problem with these photos being released. If torture isn't a big deal then showing everyone in the United States how we are torturing civilians shouldn't be a big deal either.

[Firebird]

Here in America you are innocent until proven guilty. You are not guilty until we torture you to the point where you confess. That is not how it works. You do not get to torture. We do not torture. This is not Afghanistan. This is the United States of America. Torture goes against anything and everything this country stands for.

If you don't have a problem with torture happening then you shouldn't have a problem with these photos being released. If torture isn't a big deal then showing everyone in the United States how we are torturing civilians shouldn't be a big deal either.

If you don't think that waterboarding is torture and you don't mind that the USG does it, then why are you upset that pictures of it will be release? I repeat my question.

[Firebird]

Bush did not invent waterboarding. It has been used a long time and if you think differently then maybe these things need to be released.

I am very torn about this whole thing and that is why I am interested in ALL memos being released. Let's see what they say before we decide what is really right and what is really wrong. Because I gotta feeling we do not and may never know the whole story.

You're absolutely right. Plenty of countries have done it. Some have done it to American soldiers. Our government thought it was torture when it was done to our soldier.

Can't have it both ways. Either those nations did not in fact torture our soldiers, and what they did was in bounds and appropriate given that they were at war with us, or it was not.

[the_phoenix612]

Water boarding is not torture. It is used as training for some of our own forces. Beheading people is what you might call an extreme form of torture..that is what we are up against..so no, I have no problem with waterboarding whatsoever. It has been very effective at avoiding a repeat of 9-11 in LA...that is what is important. And I love the Hannity / Olbermann reference..they have as much to do with it as we do...

No, no it didnt.

The claim is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave up the information after being waterboarded. The only problem is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested in March 2003.

The plot was foiled in February 2002, more than a year before Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested.

Karl Rove cites this memo from 2005 as proof of his claim:
Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

According to the 9/11 commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf), this plot was part of the original plan for 9/11, which involved 10 aircraft instead of 4, and spanned the entire country.

ObL shot that down as too ambitious.


http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/
http://documents.nytimes.com/justice-department-memos-on-interrogation-techniques#p=94
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/143334/071
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf

[drgnbkr]

If you don't think that waterboarding is torture and you don't mind that the USG does it, then why are you upset that pictures of it will be release? I repeat my question.

Because it is not torture, but a means of getting information from people who otherwise want to kill us and our families, we should not destroy our means to obtain such information for political reasons, which is all this is. Wouldn't you rather use harsh techniques and save American lives?

[drgnbkr]

No, no it didnt.

The claim is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave up the information after being waterboarded. The only problem is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested in March 2003.

The plot was foiled in February 2002, more than a year before Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested.

Karl Rove cites this memo from 2005 as proof of his claim:


According to the 9/11 commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf), this plot was part of the original plan for 9/11, which involved 10 aircraft instead of 4, and spanned the entire country.

ObL shot that down as too ambitious.


http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/
http://documents.nytimes.com/justice-department-memos-on-interrogation-techniques#p=94
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/143334/071
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf
Mohammed, after being interrogated, gave up the plans for the "second wave" which was planned for Los Angeles. Fact. Thank God we had the balls to get said info from him, or you would be blaming Bush for what happened to LA.

[Firebird]

Because it is not torture, but a means of getting information from people who otherwise want to kill us and our families, we should not destroy our means to obtain such information for political reasons, which is all this is. Wouldn't you rather use harsh techniques and save American lives?

Do you think the Japanese who used that technique against U.S. airmen that participated in the Doolittle raid were justified in using it to possibly find out information that might have saved their countrymen from future air raids?

As I said, why do you object to showing it to people, if it's not so bad? Would you have problems with releasing photos of other interrogations?

[tayb]

Because it is not torture, but a means of getting information from people who otherwise want to kill us and our families, we should not destroy our means to obtain such information for political reasons, which is all this is. Wouldn't you rather use harsh techniques and save American lives?

No. I would not.

And I really have to LOL at the fact that you don't consider it torture but do consider it a "means to get information." Are you really that scared?

If the "means of getting information" is no big deal I cannot see why you have a problem with the photos being shown to the public.

[drgnbkr]

Do you think the Japanese who used that technique against U.S. airmen that participated in the Doolittle raid were justified in using it to possibly find out information that might have saved their countrymen from future air raids?

As I said, why do you object to showing it to people, if it's not so bad? Would you have problems with releasing photos of other interrogations?

I guess the difference is that I choose wherever possible to consider the damage to our own country that politicization of something like this would do. You do not consider it. This is being released for political reasons. It was done for security reasons. We live in a different age.

[Firebird]

I guess the difference is that I choose wherever possible to consider the damage to our own country that politicization of something like this would do. You do not consider it. This is being released for political reasons. It was done for security reasons. We live in a different age.


You keep refusing to answer my question. Do you believe that the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes for waterboarding U.S. airmen (airmen who were participating in air raids against Japanese cities) were wrongfully convicted?

[tayb]

I guess the difference is that I choose wherever possible to consider the damage to our own country that politicization of something like this would do. You do not consider it. This is being released for political reasons. It was done for security reasons. We live in a different age.

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/watertorturedm_468x404.jpg

This is cool? Alright with you?

[Firebird]

I guess the difference is that I choose wherever possible to consider the damage to our own country that politicization of something like this would do. You do not consider it. This is being released for political reasons. It was done for security reasons. We live in a different age.

Oh, I am pretty sure that ship has sailed long ago......

[CyFallsMom]

Yes they did, except she can't make up her mind if she was in those meetings or not. She is either stupid or thinks we are. I know the answer.

While the media is definitely for Obama there are to many reporters that want the big story and will file freedom of information request and make a big enough stink they will have to release all the memos pertaining to it.

No matter how this turns out our people out in the field will suffer and now terrorist around the world know if caught they get to hold hands and have tea.

Like I said it will be very interesting to see what happens with this.

I agree. I think the Botox has gotten to Pelosi's brain finally. She is a nightmare and not even a decent liar. I think Obama is cutting his own wrists to spite his face but I don't think he can help it. Who truly believes that he is actually running the country? I know I don't. He is the teen idol that we send overseas to speak to the swaying masses. The power of that office has weakened it seems in recent months. I'd rather have a person (man or woman, black, white or brown) in there who will tell the world to shove it!!

Right now, it's a quickly spinning out of control mess.

[drgnbkr]

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/watertorturedm_468x404.jpg

This is cool? Alright with you?

Again, considering that we do it to our own people as training, yes, I'm cool with it. I know people who have had it done to them..do you?

[DragonWatcher]

Water boarding is not torture. It is used as training for some of our own forces. Beheading people is what you might call an extreme form of torture..that is what we are up against..so no, I have no problem with waterboarding whatsoever. It has been very effective at avoiding a repeat of 9-11 in LA...that is what is important. And I love the Hannity / Olbermann reference..they have as much to do with it as we do...

FYI Japanese soldiers waterboarded gi's in the second world war. We killed them for it in military trials because they were TORTURING. In countries where there are laws, laws that we have signed and agreed to btw, we must follow the law. I don't give a rats *** how effective it is, biological weapons are very effective in warfare, it still doesn't change the fact that it's completely immoral

[CyFallsMom]

So you have no problem with torture?

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waterboarding-2-water-boarding-torture-interrogation-above-the-law-blog.jpg

I guess I'm un-American but I don't think torture is right.

One word (or number as the case may be): 9/11

How soon we forget. If they were all tortured to death, I would feel better. My in-laws lost a very close neighbor on 9/11 - these monsters - all of them - need to go and not be given all these rights. How about those poor people who had to decide if they wanted to jump or burn to death. Wow, that wasn't torture. My sister-in-law was walking home with ashes all over her body and she saw that type of thing happening. She'll never forget that. Yes, I have a strong hate for those people (Al Queda, Osama, etc).

[Firebird]

Again, considering that we do it to our own people as training, yes, I'm cool with it. I know people who have had it done to them..do you?
Will you ever answer my question as to whether or not the Japanese who did the same thing to our airmen were wrongly convicted? Or keep ducking it?

[JagFan]

I agree. I think the Botox has gotten to Pelosi's brain finally. She is a nightmare and not even a decent liar. I think Obama is cutting his own wrists to spite his face but I don't think he can help it. Who truly believes that he is actually running the country? I know I don't. He is the teen idol that we send overseas to speak to the swaying masses. The power of that office has weakened it seems in recent months. I'd rather have a person (man or woman, black, white or brown) in there who will tell the world to shove it!!

Right now, it's a quickly spinning out of control mess.

You are correct. I am sad to say.

[drgnbkr]

FYI Japanese soldiers waterboarded gi's in the second world war. We killed them for it in military trials because they were TORTURING. In countries where there are laws, laws that we have signed and agreed to btw, we must follow the law. I don't give a rats *** how effective it is, biological weapons are very effective in warfare, it still doesn't change the fact that it's completely immoral

Again we do it to our own people as training. Times change and these are not the Japanese...although they both got a kick out of beheading people...

[Firebird]

FYI Japanese soldiers waterboarded gi's in the second world war. We killed them for it in military trials because they were TORTURING. In countries where there are laws, laws that we have signed and agreed to btw, we must follow the law. I don't give a rats *** how effective it is, biological weapons are very effective in warfare, it still doesn't change the fact that it's completely immoral


I have asked him now 3 times whether or not those Japanese were wrongly convicted and he won't answer.

[tayb]

One word (or number as the case may be): 9/11

How soon we forget. If they were all tortured to death, I would feel better. My in-laws lost a very close neighbor on 9/11 - these monsters - all of them - need to go and not be given all these rights. How about those poor people who had to decide if they wanted to jump or burn to death. Wow, that wasn't torture. My sister-in-law was walking home with ashes all over her body and she saw that type of thing happening. She'll never forget that. Yes, I have a strong hate for those people (Al Queda, Osama, etc).

Don't try to play the personal card. My uncle worked inside the World Trade Towers but by the grace of god happened not to be there that day. Had he been in the building my feelings would not change a bit. We are the United States of American and we DO NOT TORTURE. The terrorists have won if more people in the United States act as scared and afraid as you do.

And anyone who thinks torture is okay should have no gripe with these photos being released. You don't have a problem with torture you shouldn't have a problem showing it off for everyone to see.

[CyFallsMom]

Mohammed, after being interrogated, gave up the plans for the "second wave" which was planned for Los Angeles. Fact. Thank God we had the balls to get said info from him, or you would be blaming Bush for what happened to LA.


The Sears Tower as well.

They weren't done with us and now they see a new light going on. If something else happens that unimaginable, this administration should suffer a grave fate. They are messing with our security and safety. That's not paranoia, it's the truth. All for political "gains". I call it a very dangerous political "game".

[drgnbkr]

Will you ever answer my question as to whether or not the Japanese who did the same thing to our airmen were wrongly convicted? Or keep ducking it?

Again, I will only say that if we do it to our own people, I'm good with it. If it makes you feel better that we shouldn't so be it. It is all toothpaste that we can't get back in tube now anyway isn't it...Do you feel the country is safe under obama?

[Firebird]

Again we do it to our own people as training. Times change and these are not the Japanese...although they both got a kick out of beheading people...

Will you ever answer my question? Was it wrong for the Japanese to do it to us in 1943? Both America in 2003 and the Japanese in 1943 were facing very real threats from the air at that point in time, threats that they could have gained information about through waterboarding.

[mad_fan]

So you have no problem with torture?

http://goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/waterboarding-2-water-boarding-torture-interrogation-above-the-law-blog.jpg

I guess I'm un-American but I don't think torture is right.

My God...how many died as we (them) did this???

[tayb]

Again, considering that we do it to our own people as training, yes, I'm cool with it. I know people who have had it done to them..do you?

Do you know why we do it to our own people as training?

[pied]

I have asked him now 3 times whether or not those Japanese were wrongly convicted and he won't answer.

I am wondering why no comment to my question.

I agree and admit that I am conflicted. I have stated this before, but as I grow in my faith I try to ask myself what Jesus would do in these situations.

What do you think? Would Jesus water board?

[15Adragon]

Let's make them comfortable and apologize for being evil americans.:rolleyes:

[Firebird]

Again, I will only say that if we do it to our own people, I'm good with it. If it makes you feel better that we shouldn't so be it. It is all toothpaste that we can't get back in tube now anyway isn't it...Do you feel the country is safe under obama?

That is not my question. Since we do it to our own people, you would have to admit that we wrongly convicted the Japanese who did it to our people, no?

Answer the question. It is very simple, a yes or no.

[Firebird]

I am wondering why no comment to my question.

These questions will never get answered. The only answer you will get is that they have no problem that the USG did it after 9/11.

[JagFan]

You're absolutely right. Plenty of countries have done it. Some have done it to American soldiers. Our government thought it was torture when it was done to our soldier.

Can't have it both ways. Either those nations did not in fact torture our soldiers, and what they did was in bounds and appropriate given that they were at war with us, or it was not.

I understand what you are saying. Again I am very very torn on this whole subject. I am against releasing classified documents for political gain to be one more slap in the face by this administration. There are other ways to handle it than what is being done. That is my complaint. It is a witch hunt for Bush and Chaney's heads and this country does not need a witch hunt right now. Are we going to release ALL documents on water boarding. Like going back to Clinton? It is a can of worms that IMO need to be handled by the DOD and congress behind closed doors and not in a witch hunt to appease the people that got Obama into office.

[pied]

Let's make them comfortable and apologize for being evil americans.:rolleyes:

Great point, there are two answers. Make them comfortable or torture them.

[drgnbkr]

Will you ever answer my question? Was it wrong for the Japanese to do it to us in 1943? Both America in 2003 and the Japanese in 1943 were facing very real threats from the air at that point in time, threats that they could have gained information about through waterboarding.

I've answered your question in every way. The waterboarding technique we use is fine as a means of getting info from people who want to kill us.

[CyFallsMom]

Don't try to play the personal card. My uncle worked inside the World Trade Towers but by the grace of god happened not to be there that day. Had he been in the building my feelings would not change a bit. We are the United States of American and we DO NOT TORTURE. The terrorists have won if more people in the United States act as scared and afraid as you do.

And anyone who thinks torture is okay should have no gripe with these photos being released. You don't have a problem with torture you shouldn't have a problem showing it off for everyone to see.

SCARED - I'm not SCARED - I'm MAD AS HELL - AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!! I am pissed - not scared - at what this man and his cronies are trying to do. We have used torture before - just as others have. There is not a "personal card" - I wasn't there on 9/11 but you should hear the stories they tell. My sister is law was scared out of her mind. She thought she was a goner. Those idiots -YES IDIOTS - had an obsession with those buildings going back to at least 1993. THOUSANDS were killed - you think their families aren't tortured to this day! I'm sorry, I am AMERICAN and if torturing these monsters gets information that we need - go for it!

[tayb]

I am wondering why no comment to my question.

9/11, National Security, Terrorists

That is the only answer you will ever get.

[CyFallsMom]

My God...how many died as we (them) did this???


Not enough

[Firebird]

I've answered your question in every way. The waterboarding technique we use is fine as a means of getting info from people who want to kill us.

That is not my question. I will repeat it again:

Were the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes by U.S. military trials for waterboarding U.S. airmen wrongly convicted or not?

[pied]

I understand what you are saying. Again I am very very torn on this whole subject. I am against releasing classified documents for political gain to be one more slap in the face by this administration. There are other ways to handle it than what is being done. That is my complaint. It is a witch hunt for Bush and Chaney's heads and this country does not need a witch hunt right now. Are we going to release ALL documents on water boarding. Like going back to Clinton? It is a can of worms that IMO need to be handled by the DOD and congress behind closed doors and not in a witch hunt to appease the people that got Obama into office.


HAve all pf these documents been requested to be released?

[mad_fan]

I favor this new environment of releasing info on what the last guy did...I just hope we keep it as SOP...

[the_phoenix612]

Mohammed, after being interrogated, gave up the plans for the "second wave" which was planned for Los Angeles. Fact. Thank God we had the balls to get said info from him, or you would be blaming Bush for what happened to LA.

Are you re+arded?

The "Second Wave" attack was planned for late 2002 and canceled in February 2002 when a Southeast Asian country arrested an al Qaeda operative.

KSM had NOTHING to do with stopping Second Wave. He was arrested AFTER it was scheduled to happen.

[tayb]

SCARED - I'm not SCARED - I'm MAD AS HELL - AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!! I am pissed - not scared - at what this man and his cronies are trying to do. We have used torture before - just as others have. There is not a "personal card" - I wasn't there on 9/11 but you should hear the stories they tell. My sister is law was scared out of her mind. She thought she was a goner. Those idiots -YES IDIOTS - had an obsession with those buildings going back to at least 1993. THOUSANDS were killed - you think their families aren't tortured to this day! I'm sorry, I am AMERICAN and if torturing these monsters gets information that we need - go for it!

So what if we torture someone who is not planning something and we get no information.

Whoops? Letter of apology?

[pied]

Not enough

wow

[tayb]

Not enough

So much for innocent until proven guilty! I do hope that this slaps you in the face at some point in your life because Karma is the best way to learn a lesson.

[mad_fan]

Not enough

I was assuming the answer was zero...but your answer works too...:D

[CyFallsMom]

I had a close friend put it to me this way. If someone broke into your house and threatened to kill your family and you knew they knew of other people wanting to kill your family what would you do? That is how these agents think of America it is home and American citizens are their family.

No, nobody likes the thought of torture and extreme measures should only be taken very rarely. But when and if all the memos come out I am very interested in seeing what info was produced and how it saved American lives.

Releasing these photos and memos is the lefts way of trying to get Bush and Chaney. The problem is it will blow up in their face if all is released. They need to focus on the problems at hand and quit looking back because the future will bite them if they don't.

Nobody said you are unamerican. It is a difficult issue and we all stuggle with it. I just think Obama is opening a can of worms were nobody wins except the terrorist. Just my opinion.

Well, now they are saying that they don't know if their backs are being watched. We may see the CIA blow up and out. That would not be good.

These people are monsters - does anyone else not see that? They will kill your kids without blinking and they cut of heads and smile at the same time. I have no respect for them - nothing but vileness they are.

[Dawg Fan]

9/11 never really happened, it was a hoax perpetrated by Bush so we could invade Iraq and Afghanistan and be big brother and spy on everyone here in the US because they were paranoid. Those damn republican war mongers:mad:

I don't know why we go to all the trouble of interrogating prisoners, it is just not nice at all.

[drgnbkr]

Are you re+arded?

The "Second Wave" attack was planned for late 2002 and canceled in February 2002 when a Southeast Asian country arrested an al Qaeda operative.

KSM had NOTHING to do with stopping Second Wave. He was arrested AFTER it was scheduled to happen.

Wow...go untwist for a while and come back when you feel better...

[Firebird]

I would just like all the posters on this thread who believe that waterboarding of terror suspects in order to save lives is OK to answer the following two simple questions. Please do not dissemble and answer them directly:

1. Were the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes because they waterboarded American airmen who bombed Japanese cities wrongfully convicted?

2. If they were not wrongfully convicted, why not?

[drgnbkr]

9/11 never really happened, it was a hoax perpetrated by Bush so we could invade Iraq and Afghanistan and be big brother and spy on everyone here in the US because they were paranoid. Those damn republican war mongers:mad:

I don't know why we go to all the trouble of interrogating prisoners, it is just not nice at all.

Don't forget it was for the oil....:rolleyes:

[CyFallsMom]

I was assuming the answer was zero...but your answer works too...:D


Yeah, I'm pretty sure none actually died but, had they, I wouldn't be bothered. Were they bothered when they cut Daniel Pearl's head off on TV no less. I know it wasn't these guys exactly but it was their radical groups. But, that's okay, I guess.

[tayb]

9/11 never really happened, it was a hoax perpetrated by Bush so we could invade Iraq and Afghanistan and be big brother and spy on everyone here in the US because they were paranoid. Those damn republican war mongers:mad:

I don't know why we go to all the trouble of interrogating prisoners, it is just not nice at all.

So you are cool with the photos being released right? Since you are cool with interrogation you shouldn't mind people seeing what it is really about.

[mad_fan]

So...
A day after being 'waterboarded' the 'victim' can not...
a. breathe
b. eat
c. press his underwear because he's afraid of the ironing board

I'm guessing C...:Music

[Dawg Fan]

So you are cool with the photos being released right? Since you are cool with interrogation you shouldn't mind people seeing what it is really about.

I don't think it is necessary just like I don't think it is right for children to view porn.

[Firebird]

I would just like all the posters on this thread who believe that waterboarding of terror suspects in order to save lives is OK to answer the following two simple questions. Please do not dissemble and answer them directly:

1. Were the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes because they waterboarded American airmen who bombed Japanese cities wrongfully convicted?

2. If they were not wrongfully convicted, why not?

This, again...sigh. I fear I will never actually get an answer. :rolleyes:

[tayb]

I don't think it is necessary just like I don't think it is right for children to view porn.

No children? It's not such a bad thing I thought. Certainly not too graphic for a child to cry when he/she saw it.

[CyFallsMom]

So much for innocent until proven guilty! I do hope that this slaps you in the face at some point in your life because Karma is the best way to learn a lesson.


Nice. I love how some of you call someone names who speaks her opinion - yet, her opinion is not directed at you personally. It is directed at a monstrous sect or a politician. I do still have Freedom of Speech for a bit longer - until he gets rid of that too. If I came on here and said things like this or called Pack ignorant like he did me, you all would go nuts. This won't slap me in the face - I believe in Karma and that is why I know that these people were getting just what they deserved.

They are not Americans by the way and they did not sign the Geneva Conference. All's fair in love and war.

[mad_fan]

This, again...sigh. I fear I will never actually get an answer. :rolleyes:

To what??? I'll give you one...:)

[Dawg Fan]

I would just like all the posters on this thread who believe that waterboarding of terror suspects in order to save lives is OK to answer the following two simple questions. Please do not dissemble and answer them directly:

1. Were the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes because they waterboarded American airmen who bombed Japanese cities wrongfully convicted?

2. If they were not wrongfully convicted, why not?

I know you are going to continue to beat this to death but is what they did in the 40's exactly the same as what they are doing now? Did those Japanese only do waterboarding or was there more that you are not sharing? Was the trial for waterboarding only?

[drgnbkr]

This, again...sigh. I fear I will never actually get an answer. :rolleyes:

Do you want other answers? You've gotten plenty from me..or do you just like whipping a deceased equine?

[Firebird]

Do you want other answers? You've gotten plenty from me..or do you just like whipping a deceased equine?

You didn't answer that question.

[slcdragonfan]

As I've said before, if it weren't so scary, it would be hilarious. Obama has no experience whatsoever and it is showing more and more everyday, his supposed expert on foreign affairs, biden is completely clueless and our seasoned agents and their morale are paying the price.

dragonbkr, I respectfully disagree. In fact, I would say this is the most product first 100 days I have ever seen from an American President. There are mistakes yes, be he is doing quite a bit right with an inherited mess.

[tayb]

Nice. I love how some of you call someone names who speaks her opinion - yet, her opinion is not directed at you personally. It is directed at a monstrous sect or a politician. I do still have Freedom of Speech for a bit longer - until he gets rid of that too. If I came on here and said things like this or called Pack ignorant like he did me, you all would go nuts. This won't slap me in the face - I believe in Karma and that is why I know that these people were getting just what they deserved.

They are not Americans by the way and they did not sign the Geneva Conference. All's fair in love and war.

Could you highlight what name I called you? Please.

Who is he? I hope you are talking of George Bush because he is the one who has green lighted the most significant decrease in civil liberties since the constitution was drafted.

[twcpfan1]

I would just like all the posters on this thread who believe that waterboarding of terror suspects in order to save lives is OK to answer the following two simple questions. Please do not dissemble and answer them directly:

1. Were the Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes because they waterboarded American airmen who bombed Japanese cities wrongfully convicted?

The American Airmen were not terrorists. Japan's actions in WW2 bordered on terrorism. (at the very least, War Crimes). It's not an apples to apples comparison. As far as I'm concerned the Japanese should not even be justified in using mildly harsh language in their interrogation at the time.

2. If they were not wrongfully convicted, why not?


^^

[15Adragon]

dragonbkr, I respectfully disagree. In fact, I would say this is the most product first 100 days I have ever seen from an American President. There are mistakes yes, be he is doing quite a bit right with an inherited mess.

If you enjoy socialism.

[CyFallsMom]

Could you highlight what name I called you? Please.

Who is he? I hope you are talking of George Bush because he is the one who has green lighted the most significant decrease in civil liberties since the constitution was drafted.

HE is your messiah, Obama

It wasn't a name - it was the fact that you insinuate that you hope something bad happens to me.

[tayb]

Do you want other answers? You've gotten plenty from me..or do you just like whipping a deceased equine?

I've seen plenty of beating around the bush but no answers, well at least not from you.

[Firebird]

I know you are going to continue to beat this to death but is what they did in the 40's exactly the same as what they are doing now? Did those Japanese only do waterboarding or was there more that you are not sharing? Was the trial for waterboarding only?

At least one Japanese officer was convicted and sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for the crime of waterboarding alone.

[the_phoenix612]

If you enjoy socialism.

what has he done in the first 100 days that is socialistic?

Not what he MIGHT do, or what has been talked about.

What has he DONE?

[pied]

HE is your messiah, Obama

It wasn't a name - it was the fact that you insinuate that you hope something bad happens to me.

Seems a bit blasphemous to me as a Christian.

[tayb]

HE is your messiah, Obama

It wasn't a name - it was the fact that you insinuate that you hope something bad happens to me.

Nice. I love how some of you call someone names who speaks her opinion

Was that not you?

Was it Bush or Obama who wire tapped US citizens?

Was it Bush or Obama who signed the Patriot Act into law?

Was it Bush or Obama who signed FISA into law?

I never said I wished anything bad to happen. I only said that Karma will come and slap you across the face.

[Dawg Fan]

At least one Japanese officer was convicted and sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for the crime of waterboarding alone.


one? you are basing this on 1 officer. Any chance we could see the transcripts of that trial? The reason I am asking is I am wondering how the Japanese did the waterboarding back in the 40's and did any of our servicemen die resulting from it.

[Firebird]

^^

I expected this answer to come, and while it is certainly a tact you could take, I would add only that it toes the line of the victor getting to determine what constitutes war crimes. McNamara himself admitted that had we lost, plenty of Americans would have been convicted for war crimes for the firebombing of Japanese cities.

Japan was in a declared war with the United States. U.S. forces were bombing Japanese cities, and many, many civilians were dying in those raids. If waterboarding is not torture, why would it have been out of bounds for an opponent in a declared war against us to use that technique?

[Firebird]

one? you are basing this on 1 officer. Any chance we could see the transcripts of that trial? The reason I am asking is I am wondering how the Japanese did the waterboarding back in the 40's and did any of our servicemen die resulting from it.

We'll stick to this case. I don't have the transcripts. The soldier it happened to did not die later testified at the trial. The method was to strap the person down on a downward facing stretcher and then pour small amounts of water over his face and leave him gasping for air.

[CyFallsMom]

Seems a bit blasphemous to me as a Christian.

Don't take things so literally....that is how he appears to some. He isn't actually the Messiah - I know THAT much.

[pied]

Don't take things so literally....that is how he appears to some. He isn't actually the Messiah - I know THAT much.

Why refer to him like that then?

[Dawg Fan]

We'll stick to this case. I don't have the transcripts. The soldier it happened to did not die later testified at the trial. The method was to strap the person down on a downward facing stretcher and then pour small amounts of water over his face and leave him gasping for air.

so this Japanese officer waterboarded 1 US soldier and got 15 years hard labor? That was a bit harsh IMO

[JagFan]

HAve all pf these documents been requested to be released?

I don't know. I know Chaney has requested more memos be released and Obama danced around it.

[Firebird]

so this Japanese officer waterboarded 1 US soldier and got 15 years hard labor? That was a bit harsh IMO

I respect your answer. Let no one accuse you of being inconsistent.

[tayb]

so this Japanese officer waterboarded 1 US soldier and got 15 years hard labor? That was a bit harsh IMO

Exactly. He should have been set free because water boarding isn't bad at all.

[pied]

These questions will never get answered. The only answer you will get is that they have no problem that the USG did it after 9/11.


It seems like many Christians have a harder time with homosexuality than torture.

[CyFallsMom]

Why refer to him like that then?

Oh, I wouldn't be the first. When people pass out in his presence, they don't just see him as an ordinary human. I see him as a kid actually since he's the first president who is younger than me (by 2 years).

I love the Beatles - love them to my very core. But, I've touched Ringo and, yep, I was still conscious afterwards. I find it silly how so many think he is above and beyond all others and has some sort of otherworldy thing about him. He is just a man. Maybe if everyone would remember that and not treat him as such a celebrity, he would get on with the job at hand.

[pied]

Oh, I wouldn't be the first. When people pass out in his presence, they don't just see him as an ordinary human. I see him as a kid actually since he's the first president who is younger than me (by 2 years).

I love the Beatles - love them to my very core. But, I've touched Ringo and, yep, I was still conscious afterwards. I find it silly how so many think he is above and beyond all others and has some sort of otherworldy thing about him. He is just a man. Maybe if everyone would remember that and not treat him as such a celebrity, he would get on with the job at hand.

The majority of Americans believe he has. According to Fox at least.

[twcpfan1]

I expected this answer to come, and while it is certainly a tact you could take, I would add only that it toes the line of the victor getting to determine what constitutes war crimes. McNamara himself admitted that had we lost, plenty of Americans would have been convicted for war crimes for the firebombing of Japanese cities.

Japan was in a declared war with the United States. U.S. forces were bombing Japanese cities, and many, many civilians were dying in those raids. If waterboarding is not torture, why would it have been out of bounds for an opponent in a declared war against us to use that technique?

I was really referring to Japan's actions in countries they occupied in Asia. Very very horrible crimes perpetrated towards civilians including women and children.

And as far as I know, war was not declared before they dropped bombs on Hawaii. It was a sneak attack of the most cowardly nature.

I certainly would not apply the same set of rules to Japan at the time. I liken it to a criminal in the USA whose rights cease to exist after a r*pe or murder.

[mad_fan]

so this Japanese officer waterboarded 1 US soldier and got 15 years hard labor? That was a bit harsh IMO

I'd drive a Mitshubishi...if I wasn't 6'5"...
:rolleyes:

[DragonWatcher]

It seems like many Christians have a harder time with homosexuality than torture.

Damnit you made me spit gatorade on my laptop when reading

[mad_fan]

It seems like many Christians have a harder time with homosexuality than torture.

I do...unless they're a tied up...
:rolleyes:

[Firebird]

I was really referring to Japan's actions in countries they occupied in Asia. Very very horrible crimes perpetrated towards civilians including women and children.

And as far as I know, war was not declared before they dropped bombs on Hawaii. It was a sneak attack of the most cowardly nature.

They certainly did perpetrate many, many horrible war crimes. However, they were not terrorists, especially in the war against the U.S. They were a nation state that went to war, uniforms and all. Sneak attacks are not against the recognize laws of war. There's no law of war out there that says you need to give the other side out there time to get ready to beat you.

There are many against torture, however, and IMHO many Japanese were rightly convicted.

[DragonWatcher]

In all seriousness though pied its because American christians have perfected buffet line christianity. You get to pick only the items you want and have all you can eat, just skip any of that healthy but not so great tasting crap. This seems like a bad monty python skit when some on here rail against homosexuality and have no moral abhorrance to torture. The age we live in I guess.

[JagFan]

This is were I am torn. I was assaulted in college. I fought like hell and the guy will never have children and is permenalty disfigured. Did I torture him? Did the man that came to my aid as I was running and then beat the crap out of the guy did he torture? Did the cop that picked him up and put him in the police car with a little push was that torture? Did the doctor's that took care of him torture when they pushed a little hard on his wounds, is that torture?

If protecting you or your family by any means available. What is torture and where do you draw the line. How is this different than protecting our home land?

Really looking for answers because this not an open and shut case. Where is the line?

[twcpfan1]

They certainly did perpetrate many, many horrible war crimes. However, they were not terrorists, especially in the war against the U.S. They were a nation state that went to war, uniforms and all. Sneak attacks are not against the recognize laws of war. There's no law of war out there that says you need to give the other side out there time to get ready to beat you.

There are many against torture, however, and IMHO many Japanese were rightly convicted.

I edited my earlier post to add that the crimes against humanity that the Japanese committed at the time is comparable to a convicted murderer or r*pist in the USA giving up his rights as a Citizen. The crimes may not have been perpetrated against Americans but as far as I'm concerned they needed to be tried as criminals and not soldiers. Different set of rules.

[DragonWatcher]

I edited my earlier post to add that the crimes against humanity that the Japanese committed at the time is comparable to a convicted murderer or r*pist in the USA giving up his rights as a Citizen. The crimes may not have been perpetrated against Americans but as far as I'm concerned they needed to be tried as criminals and not soldiers. Different set of rules just the same.

I don't see how your helping yourself here... When a convicted rapist/murderer gives up his rights as a citizen he can no longer vote, he's still protected by all the laws and amendments, including the no cruel or unusual punishment...ie torture.

[slcdragonfan]

The management of foreign relations appears to be the most susceptible of abuse, of all the trusts committed to a Government, because they can be concealed or disclosed, or disclosed in such parts & at such times as will best suit particular views; and because the body of the people are less capable of judging & are more under the influence of prejudices, on that branch of their affairs, than of any other. Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions agst. danger real or pretended from abroad.

–James Madison, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 13, 1798 in: Writings of James Madison, p. 588 (Library of America ed. 1999), in: The Letters and Other Writings of James Madison, vol. 2, p. 141 (J. Lippincott ed. 1865).

I believe this is pertinent.

[twcpfan1]

I don't see how your helping yourself here... When a convicted rapist/murderer gives up his rights as a citizen he can no longer vote, he's still protected by all the laws and amendments, including the no cruel or unusual punishment...ie torture.

Well I guess you're right if you really want to get into the finer points. My main point is, there should not be a parallel comparison made between the interrogation methods towards an American soldier and a Japanese soldier at the time. One's a criminal. One is not.

[DragonWatcher]

Well I guess you're right if you really want to get into the finer points. My main point is, there should not be a parallel comparison made between the interrogation methods towards an American soldier and a Japanese soldier at the time. One's a criminal. One is not.

The japanese soldier though committed no crime other than waterboarding. By your logic the vietcong would have been justified torturing every american soldier they captured based on the heinous action of a few during that war.

[the_phoenix612]

I was really referring to Japan's actions in countries they occupied in Asia. Very very horrible crimes perpetrated towards civilians including women and children.

And as far as I know, war was not declared before they dropped bombs on Hawaii. It was a sneak attack of the most cowardly nature.

I certainly would not apply the same set of rules to Japan at the time. I liken it to a criminal in the USA whose rights cease to exist after a r*pe or murder.

Except that criminals still have rights, a concept upheld time and time again by SCOTUS...

[the_phoenix612]

The management of foreign relations appears to be the most susceptible of abuse, of all the trusts committed to a Government, because they can be concealed or disclosed, or disclosed in such parts & at such times as will best suit particular views; and because the body of the people are less capable of judging & are more under the influence of prejudices, on that branch of their affairs, than of any other. Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions agst. danger real or pretended from abroad.

–James Madison, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 13, 1798 in: Writings of James Madison, p. 588 (Library of America ed. 1999), in: The Letters and Other Writings of James Madison, vol. 2, p. 141 (J. Lippincott ed. 1865).

I believe this is pertinent.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
-Benjamin Franklin in An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania

Also pertinent.

[twcpfan1]

The japanese soldier though committed no crime other than waterboarding. By your logic the vietcong would have been justified torturing every american soldier they captured based on the heinous action of a few during that war.

The crimes against humanity that the Japanese committed was from what I understand, much much more widespread than that of the handful of Americans. With the Japanese and the Germans for that matter, it was more policy than the exception. Not a valid comparison.

But perhaps the most grievous injustice however was the way the USA rebuilt these countries after the war and left their allies in SE Asia in ruins. But that's for another conversation and for somebody more qualified to comment on it.

[Dawg Fan]

The crimes against humanity that the Japanese committed was from what I understand, much much more widespread than that of the handful of Americans. With the Japanese and the Germans for that matter, it was more policy than the exception. Not a valid comparison.

But perhaps the most grievous injustice however was the way the USA rebuilt these countries after the war and left their allies in SE Asia in ruins. But that's for another conversation and for somebody more qualified to comment on it.

Don't you know, the Americans are always the bad guys as far as liberals are concerned at least that is what I see when they speak.

[DownSouth]

I don't know. I know Chaney has requested more memos be released and Obama danced around it.


If ever there were a beacon of truth and honesty it would have to be Dick Cheney.:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

Don't you know, the Americans are always the bad guys as far as liberals are concerned at least that is what I see when they speak.

And sometimes Canada...

[mad_fan]

If ever there were a beacon of truth and honesty it would have to be Dick Cheney.:rolleyes:

He can't even ask for the release of memos honestly...:rolleyes:

[DownSouth]

It seems like many Christians have a harder time with homosexuality than torture.


Its because they keep their gayness in the closet while letting their love for torture run free.

[BDB]

Don't you know, the Americans are always the bad guys as far as liberals are concerned at least that is what I see when they speak.

if we're making generalizations...

AAAALL conservatives view hitler as a positive role-model for the moral majority.

[mad_fan]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
-Benjamin Franklin in An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania

Also pertinent.

Classic quote...moving...inspiring...AMERICAN...NOT pertinent...
I gave up no liberties...as a few UN-Americans were tortured...

[BDB]

If ever there were a beacon of truth and honesty it would have to be Dick Cheney.:rolleyes:

lol

[mad_fan]

Its because they keep their gayness in the closet while letting their love for torture run free.

Clinging to their religion and guns???
That's so yesterday...moveon...

[mad_fan]

if we're making generalizations...

AAAALL white-non-jewish conservatives view hitler as a positive role-model for the moral majority.

fi...are you getting lazy...;)

[BDB]

fi...are you getting lazy...;)

lol :rolleyes: hahaha

[DownSouth]

Don't you know, the Americans are always the bad guys as far as liberals are concerned at least that is what I see when they speak.


Therein lies your problem,

Why are you seeing when you should be hearing?

You need to get that, ahem, if I may...looked at.:D

[JMSFan]

Don't try to play the personal card. My uncle worked inside the World Trade Towers but by the grace of god happened not to be there that day. Had he been in the building my feelings would not change a bit. We are the United States of American and we DO NOT TORTURE. The terrorists have won if more people in the United States act as scared and afraid as you do.

And anyone who thinks torture is okay should have no gripe with these photos being released. You don't have a problem with torture you shouldn't have a problem showing it off for everyone to see.

I think you speak with a forked tongue. If your uncle had been in the WTC and had to jump to his death to keep himself from burning, you would feel exactly like CyFallsMom.
Did you have a problem with the terrorists when they released the video of Nick Berg being beheaded? What about when you watched the news footage of people jumping from the skyscrapers windows, and when the towers came down? Did any of that change your feelings or your outlook on them?
A couple of more questions, then I wont ask anything more of you.
Are you going to serve your country in one of the 4 armed services? Or are you just content to sit here, be sympathetic and piss and moan about how mean our interragators were to those poor Al Qaeda members?
The people who serve in our CIA and our military put their a$$e$ in danger out there everyday and night just to keep our land safe, and the best that you give in return is some ranting and raving about how those poor ******** got tortured. You make me sick.

[DragonWatcher]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1893679,00.html?cnn=yes

[slcdragonfan]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
-Benjamin Franklin in An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania

Also pertinent.

most excellent.

[tayb]

I think you speak with a forked tongue. If your uncle had been in the WTC and had to jump to his death to keep himself from burning, you would feel exactly like CyFallsMom.
Did you have a problem with the terrorists when they released the video of Nick Berg being beheaded? What about when you watched the news footage of people jumping from the skyscrapers windows, and when the towers came down? Did any of that change your feelings or your outlook on them?
A couple of more questions, then I wont ask anything more of you.
Are you going to serve your country in one of the 4 armed services? Or are you just content to sit here, be sympathetic and piss and moan about how mean our interragators were to those poor Al Qaeda members?
The people who serve in our CIA and our military put their a$$e$ in danger out there everyday and night just to keep our land safe, and the best that you give in return is some ranting and raving about how those poor ******** got tortured. You make me sick.

No. No I wouldn't. My uncle could have died that day and he feels the exact same way I do. Torturing is wrong. The United States of America does not torture.

Uh. I guess somewhere along the line I must have stated that I had a favorable outlook on terrorists? If you could go ahead and quote me where I said that I'd love to see it. It is in fact possible to not like terrorists and disagree with torture. I know you like to deal in absolutes but I do not.

No. I am not going to enlist in the armed forces. I don't need to be in the armed forces to "piss and moan" about what goes in and around this country. I don't know where you guys that served in the armed forces get this feeling of entitlement that you are somehow better than the people who didn't. Just because you served the country doesn't mean you get to spout off ******** and everyone just has to sit, listen, and agree or that your ridiculous opinions somehow carry more value than anyone else's because I hate to break it to you, they don't. You know good for you. You served the country. That is special and very honorable but on the subject at hand I really don't give a f***.

If I were to enlist in the armed forces the first time I was ordered to torture another human being I would call it quits. Dishonorable discharge, deserter, whatever title you want to put on it. I will not torture another human being. The United States of America is supposed to hold itself to a higher value. We are supposed to be BETTER than the terrorists. Anyone who condones torture and actively defends it makes me sick. You make me sick.

[BDB]

No. No I wouldn't. My uncle could have died that day and he feels the exact same way I do. Torturing is wrong. The United States of America does not torture.

Uh. I guess somewhere along the line I must have stated that I had a favorable outlook on terrorists? If you could go ahead and quote me where I said that I'd love to see it. It is in fact possible to not like terrorists and disagree with torture. I know you like to deal in absolutes but I do not.

No. I am not going to enlist in the armed forces. I don't need to be in the armed forces to "piss and moan" about what goes in and around this country. I don't know where you guys that served in the armed forces get this feeling of entitlement that you are somehow better than the people who didn't. Just because you served the country doesn't mean you get to spout off ******** and everyone just has to sit, listen, and agree or that your ridiculous opinions somehow carry more value than anyone else's because I hate to break it to you, they don't. You know good for you. You served the country. That is special and very honorable but on the subject at hand I really don't give a f***.

If I were to enlist in the armed forces the first time I was ordered to torture another human being I would call it quits. Dishonorable discharge, deserter, whatever title you want to put on it. I will not torture another human being. The United States of America is supposed to hold itself to a higher value. We are supposed to be BETTER than the terrorists. Anyone who condones torture and actively defends it makes me sick. You make me sick.

mf'ing THIIIIIIIIIIIIS!

[Dawg Fan]

No. No I wouldn't. My uncle could have died that day and he feels the exact same way I do. Torturing is wrong. The United States of America does not torture.

Uh. I guess somewhere along the line I must have stated that I had a favorable outlook on terrorists? If you could go ahead and quote me where I said that I'd love to see it. It is in fact possible to not like terrorists and disagree with torture. I know you like to deal in absolutes but I do not.

No. I am not going to enlist in the armed forces. I don't need to be in the armed forces to "piss and moan" about what goes in and around this country. I don't know where you guys that served in the armed forces get this feeling of entitlement that you are somehow better than the people who didn't. Just because you served the country doesn't mean you get to spout off ******** and everyone just has to sit, listen, and agree or that your ridiculous opinions somehow carry more value than anyone else's because I hate to break it to you, they don't. You know good for you. You served the country. That is special and very honorable but on the subject at hand I really don't give a f***.

If I were to enlist in the armed forces the first time I was ordered to torture another human being I would call it quits. Dishonorable discharge, deserter, whatever title you want to put on it. I will not torture another human being. The United States of America is supposed to hold itself to a higher value. We are supposed to be BETTER than the terrorists. Anyone who condones torture and actively defends it makes me sick. You make me sick.

just be sure to thank a veteran for providing you the freedom to be able type this. Oh and by the way, it really gives your argument a lot of clout when you use curse words in your rant. Very impressive and intelligent:notworthy

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

just be sure to thank a veteran for providing you the freedom to be able type this. Oh and by the way, it really gives your argument a lot of clout when you use curse words in your rant. Very impressive and intelligent:notworthy

Umm, I believe JMSFan used a curse word in his, as well. Just saying!

[slorch]

I don't believe in torture, per se, but the enhanced version of interrogation techniques have saved many lives.

I see it as a necessary evil and act of war, just I would not normally shoot someone, but in a war I would before they could shoot me.

FWIW, As a veteran, I don't feel my opinion matters any more than any other American's on this subject. Lots of folks love this country that never served in that capacity. What I do disagree with is putting the enemy's comfort and security ahead of our own.

[mad_fan]

I don't believe in torture, per se, but the enhanced version of interrogation techniques have saved many lives.

I see it as a necessary evil and act of war, just I would not normally shoot someone, but in a war I would before they could shoot me.

FWIW, As a veteran, I don't feel my opinion matters any more than any other American's on this subject. Lots of folks love this country that never served in that capacity. What I do disagree with is putting the enemy's comfort and security ahead of our own.

I respect your position...however as a vet...my opinion is more important than most Americans...
You are probably less likely to be singled out in a government report...

[Dawg Fan]

Umm, I believe JMSFan used a curse word in his, as well. Just saying!

To me it shows weakness when you have to rely on the shock value of a curse word to make your argument. I have done it a few times myself and have regretted it. I find it much more interesting when the arguments don't denigrate into a cursing match. That is why the threads between Mong and Firebird are so entertaining IMO

[JOH]

To me it shows weakness when you have to rely on the shock value of a curse word to make your argument. I have done it a few times myself and have regretted it. I find it much more interesting when the arguments don't denigrate into a cursing match. That is why the threads between Mong and Firebird are so entertaining IMO

Agreed. I tend to curse only when in a facetious mood. :cool:

[BDB]

You know good for you. You served the country. That is special and very honorable but on the subject at hand I really don't give a f***.

.

just be sure to thank a veteran for providing you the freedom to be able type this. Oh and by the way, it really gives your argument a lot of clout when you use curse words in your rant. Very impressive and intelligent:notworthy

i hope that was sarcastic..... cuz he clearly did.

[JOH]

i hope that was sarcastic..... cuz he clearly did.

Rather disrespectfully.

Don't you have some Sudoku puzzles or homework to do?

http://img129.echo.cx/img129/4659/james6nv.jpg

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

To me it shows weakness when you have to rely on the shock value of a curse word to make your argument. I have done it a few times myself and have regretted it. I find it much more interesting when the arguments don't denigrate into a cursing match. That is why the threads between Mong and Firebird are so entertaining IMO

Very well understood! I agree!

[slorch]

I respect your position...however as a vet...my opinion is more important than most Americans...
You are probably less likely to be singled out in a government report...

please use your emoticons so this old man knows if you're joking or not...:cool:

[mad_fan]

please use your emoticons so this old man knows if you're joking or not...:cool:

The absence of said element...is...meaningful...

[slorch]

I respect your position...however as a vet...my opinion is more important than most Americans...
You are probably less likely to be singled out in a government report...

why would your or my opinion on torture somehow be more important than the rest of America?

Did you make a different pledge than I did when you enlisted/ received your commission?

[mad_fan]

why would your or my opinion on torture somehow be more important than the rest of America?

Did you make a different pledge than I did when you enlisted/ received your commission?

I'm not sure on the pledge question...have they changed it since Reagan's time???
There are countless issues where I value my opinion over others'...this issue is no different...:)

[slorch]

I'm not sure on the pledge question...have they changed it since Reagan's time???
There are countless issues where I value my opinion over others'...this issue is no different...:)

On a personal level, sure i tend to at least attempt to qualify the credibility of people's opinions, but politically there are a plethora of uninformed, ignorant opinions that should be disqualified. I'd say our President employs many that are proven failures, yet he seems fully intent upon acting upon them, especially in the socio-economic realm.

All that being said, what about being a veteran makes us more(or less) qualified to comment on the application of torture? Why don't we just get John McCain's answer and run with it?

[pied]

BAck to the topic at hand.

WASHINGTON — The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

That undercuts assertions by former vice president Dick Cheney and other former Bush administration officials that the use of harsh interrogation tactics including waterboarding, which is widely considered torture, was justified because it headed off terrorist attacks.

The risks and effectiveness of waterboarding and other enhanced techniques are at the center of an increasingly heated debate over how thoroughly to investigate the CIA's secret detention and interrogation programs.

"It is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program," Steven G. Bradbury, then the Justice Department's principal deputy assistant attorney general, wrote in a May 30, 2005, memo to CIA General Counsel John Rizzo, one of four released last week by the Obama administration.
.....

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America.




http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

[mad_fan]

On a personal level, sure i tend to at least attempt to qualify the credibility of people's opinions, but politically there are a plethora of uninformed, ignorant opinions that should be disqualified. I'd say our President employs many that are proven failures, yet he seems fully intent upon acting upon them, especially in the socio-economic realm.

All that being said, what about being a veteran makes us more(or less) qualified to comment on the application of torture? Why don't we just get John McCain's answer and run with it?

I think we are done running with John...
If pied and I can agree on what constitues torture...I'd gladly place his opinion as high as mine...on a particular act...

[JagFan]

BAck to the topic at hand.



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

I'll wait until ALL memos pertaining to this are released before passing judgment. I do not like the releasing of only part of the story to appease the far left and to start a witch hunt.

[slorch]

I think we are done running with John...
If pied and I can agree on what constitues torture...I'd gladly place his opinion as high as mine...on a particular act...

but wouldn't McCain know more than just about anyone about torture?


mad_fan= agree with me, and I'll respect your opinion.

ROTFLMAO.

It's like having my father-in-law on here...:D

[pied]

I'll wait until ALL memos pertaining to this are released before passing judgment. I do not like the releasing of only part of the story to appease the far left and to start a witch hunt.

Have you filed a FOIA request yet? Cheney has requested two I believe.

[pied]

I think we are done running with John...
If pied and I can agree on what constitues torture...I'd gladly place his opinion as high as mine...on a particular act...

I really don't know, and am conflicted as I said yesterday.

What do you think Christ considers torture? I probably need to start there I think.

[JagFan]

Have you filed a FOIA request yet? Cheney has requested two I believe.

I would if I knew how.:o But I have e-mailed my congressman and Senators. We will know in about three weeks if they will grant Cheney's request. It is under review.

The country does not want this. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/58_oppose_further_investigation_of_u_s_torture_all egations

I personally think the country does not need this at this time.

[pied]

I would if I knew how.:o But I have e-mailed my congressman and Senators. We will know in about three weeks if they will grant Cheney's request. It is under review.

The country does not want this. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/58_oppose_further_investigation_of_u_s_torture_all egations

I personally think the country does not need this at this time.

Are you using a poll? Who are you, the_phoenix?

Just noticed, you think it should go away, but are asking your congress people to release more and continue it?

[mad_fan]

but wouldn't McCain know more than just about anyone about torture?


mad_fan= agree with me, and I'll respect your opinion.

ROTFLMAO.

It's like having my father-in-law on here...:D

This is not uncommon on the board...:)

[mad_fan]

but wouldn't McCain know more than just about anyone about torture?


mad_fan= agree with me, and I'll respect your opinion.

ROTFLMAO.

It's like having my father-in-law on here...:D

I'd probably like your father-in-law...:D

[mad_fan]

Are you using a poll? Who are you, the_phoenix?

Just noticed, you think it should go away, but are asking your congress people to release more and continue it?

The more I read...the more I favor full disclosure...and an independent investigation...

[mad_fan]

I really don't know, and am conflicted as I said yesterday.

What do you think Christ considers torture? I probably need to start there I think.

That's a fair question...and I'm sure there would be no shortage of opinion here...
Seems to me...we can't debate what we can't define...

[pied]

The more I read...the more I favor full disclosure...and an independent investigation...

Good luck with all that.

Seems like all the CIA/FBI guys have different things to say.

[pied]

That's a fair question...and I'm sure there would be no shortage of opinion here...
Seems to me...we can't debate what we can't define...

Easy to deal with the topic at hand though, would Jesus waterboard?

[JagFan]

Are you using a poll? Who are you, the_phoenix?

Just noticed, you think it should go away, but are asking your congress people to release more and continue it?

If we are going to open this can of worms then tell the whole story by releasing everything. On the other hand we as a nation do not want this. So the Obama administration has a choice. Release everything and let the country be torn even more or let it go.

I would prefer we not go there at all but the door has been opened and I don't know if it can be closed.

I was not the one that said polls were irrelevant. I just said I don't think they tell the whole story on everything. No, not just ones I agree with.

[pied]

If we are going to open this can of worms then tell the whole story by releasing everything. On the other hand we as a nation do not want this. So the Obama administration has a choice. Release everything and let the country be torn even more or let it go.

I would prefer we not go there at all but the door has been opened and I don't know if it can be closed.

I was not the one that said polls were irrelevant. I just said I don't think they tell the whole story on everything. No, not just ones I agree with.

Do you understand that specific documents were requested, judged by the courts to be released, and were released? Other documents have not gone through that process yet.

Do you have an opinion as to whether Jesus would water board?

[JOH]

Do you have an opinion as to whether Jesus would water board?

I don't think Jesus would have to. He would shame them into releasing information. :D

[JagFan]

Do you understand that specific documents were requested, judged by the courts to be released, and were released? Other documents have not gone through that process yet.

Do you have an opinion as to whether Jesus would water board?

Yes, I understand how Obama got them released. Now we wait for the others to go through the same process. I just find it interesting that the two memos Cheney requested that gives a different side were not with the original request. Sounds kind of sneaky to me.

Jesus would not have had to resort to water boarding to get answers from people. He can see their hearts and know the answers.

On the other hand God certainly has helped people win battles during war. And I don't think they drank tea or where made comfortable. So what we need to ask is whether or not water boarding, while yes very uncomfortable was indeed torture or persuasion.

[pied]

I don't think Jesus would have to. He would shame them into releasing information. :D

Kind of like the FBI then.

[BDB]

Kind of like the FBI then.

:notworthy

[JOH]

Kind of like the FBI then.

No.

...and being facetious and coy doesn't make you smart or witty.

[BDB]

No.

...and being facetious and coy doesn't make you smart or witty.

actually it does. just because you don't agree or enjoy the humor doesn't mean it doesn't exist. it's just not your brand.

i found it hilarious, though.

[pied]

Yes, I understand how Obama got them released. Now we wait for the others to go through the same process. I just find it interesting that the two memos Cheney requested that gives a different side were not with the original request. Sounds kind of sneaky to me.

Jesus would not have had to resort to water boarding to get answers from people. He can see their hearts and know the answers.

On the other hand God certainly has helped people win battles during war. And I don't think they drank tea or where made comfortable. So what we need to ask is whether or not water boarding, while yes very uncomfortable was indeed torture or persuasion.

The original request was from the ACLU...

[mad_fan]

Easy to deal with the topic at hand though, would Jesus waterboard?

In 2009...with all the science...and medical professionals in control of stopping it...yes...he would...:)

[pied]

No.

...and being facetious and coy doesn't make you smart or witty.

FBI: Key Sept. 11 Leads Obtained Without Torture

by Dina Temple-Raston

.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103475220&ft=1&f=1003

[mad_fan]

Good luck with all that.

Seems like all the CIA/FBI guys have different things to say.

This sentence is...unclear...

[mad_fan]

.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103475220&ft=1&f=1003

CIA Waterboarding Produced Intel That Stopped Attack on Los Angeles

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=47003

[JagFan]

The original request was from the ACLU...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/24/Obama-convened-torture-memo-debate/UPI-22101240575522/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123975168816518691.html

The request was made by the ACLU but released by Obama. He did have a say in it because they were classified documents.

[JOH]

actually it does. just because you don't agree or enjoy the humor doesn't mean it doesn't exist. it's just not your brand.

i found it hilarious, though.

The comparison was tasteless, and just because you think it wasn't- doesn't mean it isn't. It's not just your brand.

I found it stupid, though.

[the_phoenix612]

CIA Waterboarding Produced Intel That Stopped Attack on Los Angeles

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=47003

I already debunked this.

No, no it didnt.

The claim is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave up the information after being waterboarded. The only problem is that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested in March 2003.

The plot was foiled in February 2002, more than a year before Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested.

Karl Rove cites this memo from 2005 as proof of his claim:


According to the 9/11 commission (http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf), this plot was part of the original plan for 9/11, which involved 10 aircraft instead of 4, and spanned the entire country.

ObL shot that down as too ambitious.


http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/
http://documents.nytimes.com/justice-department-memos-on-interrogation-techniques#p=94
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/143334/071
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_16.pdf

[the_phoenix612]

The comparison was tasteless, and just because you think it wasn't- doesn't mean it isn't. It's not just your brand.

I found it stupid, though.

I think you just need to get the stick out of your *ss and stop taking these discussion so seriously...

[JOH]

I already debunked this.

I think if that were true, you wouldn't have been the first to point it out. :Music Really, there are people smarter and more experienced that pick and comb through this kind of information everyday, and if they didn't catch- their's nothing to catch.

[the_phoenix612]

I think if that were true, you wouldn't have been the first to point it out. :Music Really, there are people smarter and more experienced that pick and comb through this kind of information everyday, and if they didn't catch- their's nothing to catch.

But there's a whole group of people that will put this out regardless of its truth, and those people happen to be the ones YOU listen to...

[JOH]

I think you just need to get the stick out of your *ss and stop taking these discussion so seriously...

Maybe I do. But I like to at least try and have intelligent discussions, and when you throw out a joke on the side or are overwhelmingly coy, I find it annoying.

[JOH]

But there's a whole group of people that will put this out regardless of its truth, and those people happen to be the ones YOU listen to...

You're quick to generalize and assume things. :D Personally, I don't care what you have to do to protect your country. If you want to call it torture, go ahead... if it keeps my side from dying... I'm all for it.

[slorch]

so if the "torturous" methods don't produce results, why are they employed?

just to let off a little steam?

WTF ever...:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

I already debunked this.

You have NO CREDIBILITY...with me...
Go to your other corner of the net...

[mad_fan]

I think you just need to get the stick out of your *ss and stop taking these discussion so seriously...

That's not a stick in yours...is it???:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

But there's a whole group of people that will put this out regardless of its truth, and those people happen to be the ones YOU listen to...

People listen to me...and in your case...I KNOW the truth...;)

[the_phoenix612]

You have NO CREDIBILITY...with me...
Go to your other corner of the net...

So the 9/11 Commission's conclusions mean nothing to you? Because that's what I posted...

[mad_fan]

So the 9/11 Commission's conclusions mean nothing to you? Because that's what I posted...

Let me define NO CREDIBILITY...
I didn't read your f****** post...
Clear...:)

[slorch]

Let me define NO CREDIBILITY...
I didn't read your f****** post...
Clear...:)

and the level of scotch is decreasing rapidly...

[yankee]

let me define no credibility...
I didn't read your f****** post...
Clear...:)

bwahahahahahahaha!!!!

[mad_fan]

and the level of scotch is decreasing rapidly...

You have no idea...
But one of us (pretty-bird or mad)...is going away for a while...:D

[DrEdward]

I don't quite understand just what releasing these photos accomplishes in the way of the interests of the United States. The government has already stated on more than one occasion that indeed waterboarding of terrorists with expected high value information took place. We and the world have know this now for some time. There is no need to prove that such occured via the production of photographs - it is already acknowledged that such did occur. If photos make a more dramatic impact, then surely they will be employed by those seeking additional harm to the U.S. So, again, what does the U.S. gain by making classified material available?

[mad_fan]

I don't quite understand just what releasing these photos accomplishes in the way of the interests of the United States.

Next you'll tell me you don't understand the benefits of gripping and grinning with South American dictators...:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

bwahahahahahahaha!!!!

I feared in would have a typo...and the meaning would get lost...

[DrEdward]

Next you'll tell me you don't understand the benefits of gripping and grinning with South American dictators...:rolleyes:

No, actually I do understand that :mad:, as they seem to share a number of mutual objectives as well as some similar views about the United States. :(

[mad_fan]

No, actually I do understand that :mad:, as they seem to share a number of mutual objectives as well as some similar views about the United States. :(

Announcing the date we'll stop fighting in Iraq???:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

Killing babies for stem cells???

[mad_fan]

Firing the CEO of GM???

[mad_fan]

Tax cuts for the middle-class???
nvm...that's off the table...

[Bobcat81]

I think we should be utilizing certain means to gather information in times of war, and when certain crimes are committed. Torture is a broad term with many degrees of meaning. Some levels may be too harsh.. while others may not be harsh enough. Sometimes keeping peace is not always pretty.. and some sacrifices have to be made. That is why we have things like the death penalty, and prsion, to protect the rest of us who wish to live in peace.

With the way radical Islam wages their war against Jews, Christians, and the west, i think every reasonable means should be used in return to gather info and protect our nation and it's people. We cannot and should not expect that a simple line of questioning & interrogation will produce any type of positive result. Without that "fear" factor in place, we might as well surrender to all things evil.

[slorch]

No, actually I do understand that :mad:, as they seem to share a number of mutual objectives as well as some similar views about the United States. :(

you're wrong.

the country voted for change, and this man will deliver it.

don't believe common sense or any other detractors

[mad_fan]

we might as well surrender to all things evil.

We'll let them know ahead of time the date, time and place...won't we???

[slorch]

I think we should be utilizing certain means to gather information in times of war, and when certain crimes are committed. Torture is a broad term with many degrees of meaning. Some levels may be too harsh.. while others may not be harsh enough. Sometimes keeping peace is not always pretty.. and some sacrifices have to be made. That is why we have things like the death penalty, and prsion, to protect the rest of us who wish to live in peace.

With the way radical Islam wages their war against Jews, Christians, and the west, i think every reasonable means should be used in return to gather info and protect our nation and it's people. We cannot and should not expect that a simple line of questioning & interrogation will produce any type of positive result. Without that "fear" factor in place, we might as well surrender to all things evil.

I'm being sincere here, how do we determine when we're at war?

[mad_fan]

I'm being sincere here, how do we determine when we're at war?

It's like porn...and torture...we can't define it...but we know it when we see it...:)

[Bobcat81]

We'll let them know ahead of time the date, time and place...won't we???

The Declarations are probably well on their way already.. with White House postage

[JMSFan]

You're quick to generalize and assume things. :D Personally, I don't care what you have to do to protect your country. If you want to call it torture, go ahead... if it keeps my side from dying... I'm all for it.

That was the point that I was trying to get across when I went on my rant.

[Bobcat81]

I'm being sincere here, how do we determine when we're at war?

As of Jan, 09, that is a very good question that leaves many scratching their heads. :)

[slorch]

As of Jan, 09, that is a very good question that leaves many scratching their heads. :)

i know the correct answer, but I'm pretty sure the majority in America thinks we are working towards some sort of reconciliation with the world...:rolleyes::Censor::mad:

[JMSFan]

Umm, I believe JMSFan used a curse word in his, as well. Just saying!

Just one curse word, thats all. And it wasnt directed at the poster, it was about the terrorists.

[DrEdward]

you're wrong.

the country voted for change, and this man will deliver it.

don't believe common sense or any other detractors

In what ways am I incorrect here? About 53% of the country voted for some sort of "change." I don't recall Chavez's vote counts, but he was "voted" in as well. He too is delivering change. Both seem to believe that America has at least many things to apologize for in foreign affairs. Both appear to believe that a very strong centralized government is the answer, although Chavez does seem to be a bit more communistic than Obama at the moment, with the later more in favor of private ownership, but government control. Both favor fiscal policies which result in relatively large increase in the share of national product being directed to use by the central government.

You may judge for yourself the widom and consequences of such policies.

[Bobcat81]

i know the correct answer, but I'm pretty sure the majority in America thinks we are working towards some sort of reconciliation with the world...:rolleyes::Censor::mad:

Speaking of which.. Meet your new neighbors,..

Just got wind of a 20.3 million dollar "Migration Assistance" program (H.R. 1388) set in motion by King "Hussein" to help those poor Palestinians from the conflict in Gaza (HAMAS) come to the good ole US of A! :Censor::mad:

Obamasiah is giving what amounts to terrorists a free ride to come make a home in our own back yards!

[slorch]

In what ways am I incorrect here? About 53% of the country voted for some sort of "change." I don't recall Chavez's vote counts, but he was "voted" in as well. He too is delivering change. Both seem to believe that America has at least many things to apologize for in foreign affairs. Both appear to believe that a very strong centralized government is the answer, although Chavez does seem to be a bit more communistic than Obama at the moment, with the later more in favor of private ownership, but government control. Both favor fiscal policies which result in relatively large increase in the share of national product being directed to use by the central government.

You may judge for yourself the widom and consequences of such policies.

You know me better than that...I should have put ole "winky" emoticon on there... sorry.:o

[mad_fan]

Speaking of which.. Meet your new neighbors,..

Just got wind of a 20.3 million dollar "Migration Assistance" program (H.R. 1388) set in motion by King "Hussein" to help those poor Palestinians from the conflict in Gaza (HAMAS) come to the good ole US of A! :Censor::mad:

Obamasiah is giving what amounts to terrorists a free ride to come make a home in our own back yards!

It's a BIG tent...:o

[mad_fan]

You know me better than that...I should have put ole "winky" emoticon on there... sorry.:o

Those help...:rolleyes::D

[DragonWatcher]

Speaking of which.. Meet your new neighbors,..

Just got wind of a 20.3 million dollar "Migration Assistance" program (H.R. 1388) set in motion by King "Hussein" to help those poor Palestinians from the conflict in Gaza (HAMAS) come to the good ole US of A! :Censor::mad:

Obamasiah is giving what amounts to terrorists a free ride to come make a home in our own back yards!

Many of those pore palestinians are exactly that. Educate yourself on one of the worst humanitarian crisis's in the modern world before you go off spouting such idiocy saying they're all terrorists.

[JMSFan]

No. No I wouldn't. My uncle could have died that day and he feels the exact same way I do. Torturing is wrong. The United States of America does not torture.

Uh. I guess somewhere along the line I must have stated that I had a favorable outlook on terrorists? If you could go ahead and quote me where I said that I'd love to see it. It is in fact possible to not like terrorists and disagree with torture. I know you like to deal in absolutes but I do not.

No. I am not going to enlist in the armed forces. I don't need to be in the armed forces to "piss and moan" about what goes in and around this country. I don't know where you guys that served in the armed forces get this feeling of entitlement that you are somehow better than the people who didn't. Just because you served the country doesn't mean you get to spout off ******** and everyone just has to sit, listen, and agree or that your ridiculous opinions somehow carry more value than anyone else's because I hate to break it to you, they don't. You know good for you. You served the country. That is special and very honorable but on the subject at hand I really don't give a f***.

If I were to enlist in the armed forces the first time I was ordered to torture another human being I would call it quits. Dishonorable discharge, deserter, whatever title you want to put on it. I will not torture another human being. The United States of America is supposed to hold itself to a higher value. We are supposed to be BETTER than the terrorists. Anyone who condones torture and actively defends it makes me sick. You make me sick.

They bombed the WTC which killed almost 3000 and injured over 6000. They held Nick Berg captive and videotaped his head being cut off for the world to see.

We waterboarded them to get information.

We are BETTER than the terrorists.

[mad_fan]

Many of those pore palestinians are exactly that. Educate yourself on one of the worst humanitarian crisis's in the modern world before you go off spouting such idiocy saying they're all terrorists.

Pore???
Even my drunk a** never spelt it that way...:notworthy
Welcome to the farmer-mad_fan club...:Music

[DragonWatcher]

Pore???
Even my drunk a** never spelt it that way...:notworthy
Welcome to the farmer-mad_fan club...:Music

Ya I've got to say i usually always spell great when drinking but then again i have no beer tonight so I'm getting rid of my wine reserves...damn that stuuff.

[BDB]

Many of those pore palestinians are exactly that. Educate yourself on one of the worst humanitarian crisis's in the modern world before you go off spouting such idiocy saying they're all terrorists.

but if i want to believe i'm a fish, all i have to say is i'm underwater.....

it's better just to poke fun then be serious. either way you handle it, the outcome is the same... you're still a dirty hippy.

[DragonWatcher]

but if i want to believe i'm a fish, all i have to say is i'm underwater.....

it's better just to poke fun then be serious. either way you handle it, the outcome is the same... you're still a dirty hippy.

a slightly drunk dirty hippy... it's how i live with myself

[BDB]

a slightly drunk dirty hippy... it's how i live with myself

welcome to the club... but i think i'm actually a dirty illegal immigrant (as ive been called in pm's here.

[JOH]

welcome to the club... but i think i'm actually a dirty illegal immigrant (as ive been called in pm's here.

The boat here from Asia was long and hard. But you made it.

You're the worlds greatest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfgHdHfgVyE).

[BDB]

The boat here from Asia was long and hard. But you made it.

You're the worlds greatest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfgHdHfgVyE).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTgw5hbges this, personally, is my jam.

[JMSFan]

welcome to the club... but i think i'm actually a dirty illegal immigrant (as ive been called in pm's here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09yOQrIIuTg&feature=related

[DragonWatcher]

welcome to the club... but i think i'm actually a dirty illegal immigrant (as ive been called in pm's here.

i sunburn if i stay out in the sun too long so im still welcome in teh country no worries

[Bobcat81]

Many of those pore palestinians are exactly that. Educate yourself on one of the worst humanitarian crisis's in the modern world before you go off spouting such idiocy saying they're all terrorists.

Them being poor is not my problem.. nor is it ours. They should have left the Israelis alone and they wouldn't have been bombed out of their homes. We have enough of our own problems here. Why would you support creating more? With members affiliated with HAMAS no doubt? THAT is what i call "Idiocy"! :rolleyes:

[DragonWatcher]

Them being poor is not my problem.. nor is it ours. They should have left the Israelis alone and they wouldn't have been bombed out of their homes. We have enough of our own problems here. Why would you support creating more? With members affiliated with HAMAS no doubt? THAT is what i call "Idiocy"! :rolleyes:

Do you have an @!&%&*! idea how the state of Israel came into being? It certainly wasn't because the palestinian's started s%$# with some jews who just happened to be in the area. It amazes me how so many american's can be completely oblivious to regional history and claim authority on issues arising in that region. Anyone that thinks either side is completely or mostly right on this issue is an idiot.

And on regards to giving aid to these starving and dying palestinians, I'm sure being the expert on militant groups like hamas you know that they arise from regions/groups in chaos like i.e. palestine, somalia. Trying to help palestinians will alleviate the draw that radical militants and terrorists have from the local population.

[JOH]

Them being poor is not my problem.. nor is it ours. They should have left the Israelis alone and they wouldn't have been bombed out of their homes. We have enough of our own problems here. Why would you support creating more? With members affiliated with HAMAS no doubt? THAT is what i call "Idiocy"! :rolleyes:

Obviously you aren't a humanitarian. If the British invaded the US with superior technology and powerful allies, claiming that North America was promised to them by God...would you be okay with them kicking you out? Suppose you do let them kick you out, but beg for a little land to live on...and denied it.

I wouldn't have been too happy. After years and years of fighting, you are given land- proportionally the size of 1/2 a Canada (to North America). Now, the British have drawn a line around your settlement and wall you off from the rest of North America, and require you have a ridiculous amount of paperwork to visit what had been the U.S (and the landmarks therein that carry your culture and heritage). If you try and cross the line illegally- you are either shot or get away, then hauled back if you don't have proper paperwork. Back to your land though, because you already have what you asked for, right? In your country (although, theoretically, you can't call it that- you don't have a official form of government and for other reasons that I might expand on) the law is British, you have British military presence: because the British claim that they never really set borders for your land- its disputed. Well, you live in a place where Americans are oppressed by British soldiers and law (who rule against you when an British citizen is involved...) and you are rather (extremely) poor having no central government or organization at all, living off a basic form of mercantilism where your capital is composed of dirt and camels-...err....I mean, used 1964 VW Beatles'.

The standard of living sucks, the smallest sickness leads to death...all your hospitals blow and couldn't treat a diaper rash. Your people starve because there is no food. Meanwhile, the British prosper, making breakthroughs in science, medicine, and weapons. Some of your peers and fellow citizens (oftentimes in your own family, and family is a big thing in this New America...) are outraged (imagine that), and form terrorist groups that target British citizens and property. Other countries sympathize with America, but in reality hate Americans (Palestinians are almost universally hated or disliked by the Arabic culture as a whole. Whenever they try and make a living else where, they are criticized and given dirty jobs...overall treated as inferiors), but they allow these terrorist groups to travel and operate within their borders (Because they hate the British more. Seriously.).

While you may not agree with these extremists, the media and the Church will label and place you in the same boat as them. And so on, the British retaliate, and don't hold back...often having to be stopped by their pesky allies. Meanwhile, Back in US/Canada, you let your brother and some of his friends stay over - they're extremists, but thats okay, you'll only live another 8 years anyway. Or maybe you don't let him stay, and you're killed by your extremist neighbors. OR maybe you deny him, but he enters anyway...and being a American, you hide him so as not to stain your honor- you never deny a guest. OR maybe he takes your family and threatens to kill them if you don't quarter him. If only they had some kind of Amendment...anywayz...

You're killed for harboring terrorist, and die in a fiery storm of shrapnel and bomb shells. The End.

[85Roughneck]

I agree and admit that I am conflicted. I have stated this before, but as I grow in my faith I try to ask myself what Jesus would do in these situations.

What do you think? Would Jesus water board?

Should we bring our Father into this conversation? We are so far below Him it is indescribable. We, as mankind, do the things we do because we are men and not God Almighty. We think as children. Not as the Father.

Now, my take is this. We should follow the geneva convention rules and not find loopholes to skate around those rules. We're the good guys. We should use our resources to combat the evildoers, terrorists, and enemies that we have with the weaponry we possess. The USA, as a member of the global community, should make sure that we don't go into these battles alone, but with our willing allies that put as much into it as we do. If our allies don't participate with with as much vigor as we then we probably should treat them the same when they are in trouble. However, we should offer aid and asistance to those countries that help us economically and/or are in close proximity to our borders. The rest of the world can do as they please.

IMO, it's high time we, as a country, take care of ourselves first and then go back to being big brother for the rest of the world once we have positioned ourselves to do so effectively and with no chance of failure. The world is very different today than it was 25 years ago, 10 years ago and even 3.1/2 months ago since Obama took office.

We do need to be strong and not weak. We do need to stand tall and strong against the Kim Jong-Ils and Chavez' and OBL's of the world so that other countries can be there for us and we can be there for them.

I'll tell what I think Jesus would do ... With a heavy broken heart He would cry bloody tears and beg His Father to forgive us and spare all mankind His wrath. However, we all know that in the end He will not spare all of us. Some of mankind will go straight to hell.

Personally, I have a feeling that He would pass a more lenient judgement on a guy who performed water boarding as opposed to a guy that cut a non-combatant's head off with a dull sword while they screamed for their lives, but that's just my opinion.

[Firebird]

Many of those pore palestinians are exactly that. Educate yourself on one of the worst humanitarian crisis's in the modern world before you go off spouting such idiocy saying they're all terrorists.

Friday night I smoked a hookah and had a beers with some Palestinians.....at a church related party. Prolly shoulda called DHS though....

[pied]

Should we bring our Father into this conversation? We are so far below Him it is indescribable. We, as mankind, do the things we do because we are men and not God Almighty. We think as children. Not as the Father.


I'll tell what I think Jesus would do ... With a heavy broken heart He would cry bloody tears and beg His Father to forgive us and spare all mankind His wrath. However, we all know that in the end He will not spare all of us. Some of mankind will go straight to hell.

Personally, I have a feeling that He would pass a more lenient judgement on a guy who performed water boarding as opposed to a guy that cut a non-combatant's head off with a dull sword while they screamed for their lives, but that's just my opinion.


Does that apply to gay marriage and abortion as well?

Are you of the opinion that Christ views different sins differently?

[mad_fan]

Friday night I smoked a hookah and had a beers with some Palestinians.....at a church related party. Prolly shoulda called DHS though....

Wallet out when the plate came around???;)

[DragonWatcher]

Friday night I smoked a hookah and had a beers with some Palestinians.....at a church related party. Prolly shoulda called DHS though....

Don't get me started on hookah. I own one and and love it but I've now quit as I started smoking it a little too much.

[Firebird]

Don't get me started on hookah. I own one and and love it but I've now quit as I started smoking it a little too much.

It's always fascinated me how in the rush to support the Israeli Jews...American churches forget about the Palestinian Christians who live there.:(

[drgnbkr]

Does that apply to gay marriage and abortion as well?

Are you of the opinion that Christ views different sins differently?

I would imagine that whoever drug religion into the thread was as off base as dragging the notion of Hamas rockets flying into Israel without a reasonable response. The world is a violent place and if it takes water boarding to protect our population, so be it. I'm sure the Israelis feel the same way about protecting their population from Hamas. It is beyond our knowledge to know what Jesus would have done, but I'm pretty comfortable that on balance the US is probably the most ethical nation on earth.

[mad_fan]

It's always fascinated me how in the rush to support the Israeli Jews...American churches forget about the Palestinian Christians who live there.:(

fascinating...:rolleyes:

[mad_fan]

Does that apply to gay marriage and abortion as well?


The latter won't be an issue for the former...so Jesus can rest easy on that one...

[the_phoenix612]

I would imagine that whoever drug religion into the thread was as off base as dragging the notion of Hamas rockets flying into Israel without a reasonable response. The world is a violent place and if it takes water boarding to protect our population, so be it. I'm sure the Israelis feel the same way about protecting their population from Hamas. It is beyond our knowledge to know what Jesus would have done, but I'm pretty comfortable that on balance the US is probably the most ethical nation on earth.

You have such an unbalanced, unfair, biased opinion, I'm surprised the stacks of bullsh*t all around you haven't suffocated you yet...

[smw358]

You have such an unbalanced, unfair, biased opinion, I'm surprised the stacks of bullsh*t all around you haven't suffocated you yet...

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black...:rolleyes:

[the_phoenix612]

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black...:rolleyes:

He's acting like Israel has ALWAYS been there, and the Palestinians are the invaders:rolleyes:

[JMSFan]

He's acting like Israel has ALWAYS been there, and the Palestinians are the invaders:rolleyes:

But you didnt say that. You said "unbalanced, unfair, biased opinion".... "stacks of bullsh*t all around you".

Then changed it when someone called you out.

[the_phoenix612]

But you didnt say that. You said "unbalanced, unfair, biased opinion".... "stacks of bullsh*t all around you".

Then changed it when someone called you out.

Nothing changed. It just got more specific. I was explaining WHY he is "unbalanced, unfair and biased"

[HUM398]

Apparently Sean Hannity said waterboarding was "no big deal", so Keith Olbermann offered him 1000 dollars to the charity of his choice for every second he could withstand it, with the offer to double the total if Hannity admitted he feared for his life.

No word yet from Hannity.

Ill do it for 100 bucks.....

[DragonWatcher]

It's always fascinated me how in the rush to support the Israeli Jews...American churches forget about the Palestinian Christians who live there.:(

I know, This book should be required reading for every american christian

http://www.amazon.com/We-Belong-Land-Palestinian-Reconciliation/dp/0268019630

Elias Chacour is a great priest and the nonviolent methods of reconciliation he tells through his story is one of the most moving christian testimonials I've ever heard since dr. king.

[Firebird]

When I think about these questions...I ask myself, what would the Gipper think?

Surely he wouldn't have signed a document like this, right?


1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Article 2

1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Article 3

1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

Article 4

1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

[Firebird]

I know, This book should be required reading for every american christian

http://www.amazon.com/We-Belong-Land-Palestinian-Reconciliation/dp/0268019630

Elias Chacour is a great priest and the nonviolent methods of reconciliation he tells through his story is one of the most moving christian testimonials I've ever heard since dr. king.

The only method he needs....is to move...and stop complaining about it....:notworthy

[mad_fan]

I know, This book should be required reading for every american christian

http://www.amazon.com/We-Belong-Land-Palestinian-Reconciliation/dp/0268019630


Probably wouldn't hurt every Palestinian to read it too...

[drgnbkr]

You have such an unbalanced, unfair, biased opinion, I'm surprised the stacks of bullsh*t all around you haven't suffocated you yet...

Thank you! My opinions are rooted in a lot of years on this earth, and if you tried mixing a little logic into your thought process and backed away from your fantasy world of polls and twisted appeasement, you'd have a clearer view of the world. Are you really of the opinion that Israel should just send flowers in response to Hamas' rockets?

[pied]

The latter won't be an issue for the former...so Jesus can rest easy on that one...

Another underrated line. Nicely done.

[pied]

I would imagine that whoever drug religion into the thread was as off base as dragging the notion of Hamas rockets flying into Israel without a reasonable response. The world is a violent place and if it takes water boarding to protect our population, so be it. I'm sure the Israelis feel the same way about protecting their population from Hamas. It is beyond our knowledge to know what Jesus would have done, but I'm pretty comfortable that on balance the US is probably the most ethical nation on earth.


That would be me and I disagree. I think as a Christian it's a valid question, where is Jesus in this situation? Interesting that some seem to want to take him out of certain situations and place him in others.

[drgnbkr]

That would be me and I disagree. I think as a Christian it's a valid question, where is Jesus in this situation? Interesting that some seem to want to take him out of certain situations and place him in others.

My parents always told me we should never discuss politics or religion openly. It seems we are mired deeply in both.

[Firebird]

My parents always told me we should never discuss politics or religion openly. It seems we are mired deeply in both.

Who started this thread, anyway?:mad: