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LPanther
10-12-2005, 06:58 PM
Coach quits after being told to end prayers

EAST BRUNSWICK, N.J. (AP) - A veteran central New Jersey high school football coach has resigned after being told by school officials he could no longer lead his team in pregame prayer.

East Brunswick coach Marcus Borden was told last Friday by Schools Superintendent Jo Ann Magistro that some parents had complained about prayers Borden initiated at pregame meals and before the games.
After being told he would have to stop leading or taking part in the prayers, Borden stepped down from his position, just hours before his team's 21-0 loss to Sayreville that evening.

"I'm very disappointed," Borden said in an interview with News 12 New Jersey Tuesday. "Do I feel we were violating someone's rights? I don't think so."

But East Brunswick school officials think differently. According to school officials, the prayers violated the separation between church and state in public schools.

A spokeswoman for the district, Trish LaDuca, said students have the right to pray on school property during school events, but the prayer must be initiated by the students; otherwise it violates the law.

"A representative of the school district cannot constitutionally initiate prayer, encourage it or lead it," LaDuca told the Home News Tribune of East Brunswick. "Representatives of the school cannot participate in the student-initiated prayer."

During the television interview, aired Tuesday, Borden said what he was doing was not uncommon, and coaches across the state lead similar prayers as part of sporting events.

"I'm not out preaching, I'm not a preacher," said Borden, who has led the football program for 23 years. He has a 116-100-1 career record, and his team won the Central Jersey Group IV championship in 2004.

He is the founder of the Snapple Bowl, a charity all-star football game that has raised more than $150,000 for physically and mentally impaired children.

His resignation has divided the school community, with many students and parents supporting the coach.

On Saturday, a group of more than 50 members of the football team and some of their parents traveled to Borden's home and asked the coach to return.

Nancy Halupka, president of the school's football booster club, said she sympathizes with Borden and said the prayer tradition started long before he arrived at the school.

But school officials, who emphasized that they did not force Borden to resign, said some students felt uncomfortable with the prayer and their concerns should be treated with respect.

Magistro, the district's superintendent, said Borden's resignation won't become official until the school board meets on Oct. 20. She said the former coach can rescind his resignation at any time before the meeting, something Borden said was not likely.

"I believe that I made the right decision," said Borden, a Catholic. "I believe I made a decision based on principle. I believe that's who I am."

Borden could not immediately be reached for comment by The Associated Press Tuesday evening. There is no telephone listing in his name.

green wave
10-12-2005, 07:04 PM
there's alot of place that have stop the pre game prayer saying it violates the separation of church and state. but there will be alot to answer for come judgement day

pack98
10-12-2005, 07:06 PM
It is a sad day what Amarica has come to and over prayer and everything. I am glad the coach resigned from his post. It is those kids who lost a role model. and people always want to complain about there kids watching tv and trying to be like the stars and when the should be looking up to the coaches the teachers there family and this guy did nothing wrong after all. OUR MONEY SAYS IN GOD WE TRUST OVER IT!!!! dont like it well move out of America then.

I know as a former panther we always prayed after practice and before games and after games we all say the lords prayer and have been doing for a while.


GO PANTHERS LETS GET KLEIN.

JC73
10-12-2005, 07:10 PM
this country is in trouble

gritty52
10-12-2005, 07:15 PM
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

green wave
10-12-2005, 07:16 PM
i second that

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 07:45 PM
I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!

stevefoxsc
10-12-2005, 07:50 PM
ill say the same thing i said on yappi. Wasn't this country made on the foundation of christian beliefs if you don't wana pray just leave thats what they do at temple high they ask please step aside if you do not wana join in prayer

dragonfootballfan
10-12-2005, 07:50 PM
he should not be allowed to lead a team in prayer. religion is a personal choice and a coach which is a person in power should not be allowed to force his beliefs upon a group of impressionable kids.

dragonfootballfan
10-12-2005, 07:51 PM
ill say the same thing i said on yappi. Wasn't this country made on the foundation of christian beliefs if you don't wana pray just leave thats what they do at temple high they ask please step aside if you do not wana join in prayer
why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

stevefoxsc
10-12-2005, 08:06 PM
why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:10 PM
why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

Exactly!

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:18 PM
so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us

No one is keeping you from your right to pray....and you know that! You seem offended in the fact that there are millions of human beings in this world who choose not to acknowledge religion...let alone pray in public schools.

And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!

dragonfootballfan
10-12-2005, 08:26 PM
so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us
the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:28 PM
the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

Well said!

dragonfootballfan
10-12-2005, 08:31 PM
Well said!
I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:33 PM
I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one

Ya......drop your sh** and run!!!!! :D

FootballJunkie
10-12-2005, 08:36 PM
RELIGION can pit brother against brother can't get involved in this one :D

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:37 PM
RELIGION can pit brother against brother can't get involved in this one :D

You said it......I'm out the door with you!!

TheDawghouse
10-12-2005, 08:39 PM
Wow, so now being an atheist is the correct thing to do? We pray before and after every practice and every game. One of our players leads the team, and we all follow through, nobody "gets up and leaves".

dragonfootballfan
10-12-2005, 08:40 PM
You said it......I'm out the door with you!!
me too. I said my piece. bye

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:44 PM
Wow, so now being an atheist is the correct thing to do? We pray before and after every practice and every game. One of our players leads the team, and we all follow through, nobody "gets up and leaves".

I'm stepping back in the door to answer your reply....

Yes, I guess, being an atheist is the right thing...because it's as close to being an American as you can get. You have the freedom of religion....if you want to pray, PRAY....if I, as a player, don't want to....I don't have to.

You're not right, just because you're Christian.(Or Religious, period!)

stevefoxsc
10-12-2005, 08:44 PM
the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.


it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way, all it ses is he would do pregame prayer's and some of the student's were offended by it, probably kid's just lookin for attention like that canadian guy who turns his back during the american anthem, now if student's had did it there would be no crime.

I know ive said this country was founded on christian beliefes over and over and we gave people right to bare arm's choose to believe or not we gave people there right's, but then they wana take away are christian foundation in this country, i mean the money says in god we trust, we when pledge are alligance we say one nation under god, " one Nation under God,
These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)". Sorta sad to see what people went through and struggle to create then to only taken away now, the way i see it we should have our right's but like the muslims and other relgiious group who step out during the pledge of alligance should give athiest there right to avoid prayer not take it away from us.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:45 PM
me too. I said my piece. bye

I'm done, as well.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-12-2005, 08:50 PM
it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way

Stepping back in, again, to answer your reply...


Having group prayer is forcing, unless he says, "If you guys want to individually pray, do so, if not, lets get ready to play!"

The option, and or right, to refuse public prayer needs to be available. And you guys may not know how difficult it is to be the odd man out...while the other 70 players are wanting to go through with the prayer!

You're seperating a team, even though your intentions are not to. And that one player shouldn't have to be in that situation in the first place...

hence, religion is personal, between you and your God!

Standing On Tradition KT
10-12-2005, 08:51 PM
it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way

It's dumb how this country is fallen apart........taking "under God" out of the Pledge......When I played football we prayed in Jr. High before a game and in high school we prayed everyday after practice and no1 ever had a problem with it........Just amazes me how this nation is starting to turn out.

LPanther
10-12-2005, 09:05 PM
Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.

bubbacoach
10-12-2005, 09:08 PM
I pray with my team at the end of every practice and after every game. i do not think that believing in God and thanking him for what he has done for us is a bad thing. The day they tell me to stop I will move on. The problem with society today is we are all worried about being PC. If you choose not to believe that is your choice. You are choosing your ultimate destiny. If more kids had God in their life or a good role model showing them the Christian way to live, we would have a better world. It is all these lost souls that are tearing society down. And if they are upset that I believe in GOD and pray with my team then they can .........

CLFalcon2006
10-12-2005, 09:34 PM
Political Corectness will be the death of this country.

I'm more angry at how 1 or 2 guys can run this country just by causing a fuss. Since 1951, when "under God" was placed in the pledge it hasn't caused trouble. Then 1 guy who has nothing better to do causes a ruckus and because everyone is afriad of being unPC we let this 1 guy change a harmless system (Guarntee you he went home the next day and said "thank GOD I won"). This countiry has lost the majority of its fighting spirit, GOD help us if we get into a major war where we need a draft.

Shoot2thrill
10-12-2005, 09:38 PM
I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!

After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(

BigArab
10-12-2005, 09:46 PM
I would have to say he had good intentions, but you have to follow the law. I also agree that players were probably just doing it for attention. If they followed the proper channels, they would've gone to him first and talked to him about it. If he refused to change his mind, then I think the next step would be to tell a parent. I know even down here in the Bible-belt, many coaches don't hang around for the prayer. They leave it up to the players. Even back in the day when I played, there would be a short coach-lead semi-devotional; mainly "think of your team tonight" type of devotional, then the coaches would leave the room and a player would lead the prayer. This was a democracy when it came to this though. The players were in unison in their decision to pray before games.

But either way, I respect him for believing strongly enough to leave the school, but he should've followed the law of this land (another of God's commands).

SVite
10-12-2005, 09:52 PM
I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!


Well you cant see the air that keeps you alive either,so...it`s not there,i dont care if you tell me that the air is there, i cant believe the air is there, i cant see it.

For God (our Father SOOOOOOOOOO Loved the world (unsaved humans)That He sent His only Son,not to condemn it,but to save it (from eternal death).

SeguinMatadors
10-12-2005, 09:56 PM
After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(

Amen to that.

PACKMAN
10-12-2005, 10:02 PM
According to "ThEgReAtOnE" ..... "And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!"


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !!

SeguinMatadors
10-12-2005, 10:04 PM
And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion![/FONT]


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !![/QUOTE]

LMAO.

PACKMAN
10-12-2005, 10:12 PM
I pray with my team at the end of every practice and after every game. i do not think that believing in God and thanking him for what he has done for us is a bad thing. The day they tell me to stop I will move on. The problem with society today is we are all worried about being PC. If you choose not to believe that is your choice. You are choosing your ultimate destiny. If more kids had God in their life or a good role model showing them the Christian way to live, we would have a better world. It is all these lost souls that are tearing society down. And if they are upset that I believe in GOD and pray with my team then they can .........


Stand tall and proud "bubbacoach". Remember ................ one door may close, but another will surely be opened. High school sports needs more role models such as yourself ! We are not the minority yet !

BigArab
10-12-2005, 10:22 PM
According to "ThEgReAtOnE" ..... "And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!"


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !!

Hey, he has as much a right not to believe in God, as you have the right to believe. Please, when it comes to religion, lets just not talk about it on this forum. If you want to do that, go to some other website. We're all united in the love of football.

rangerpride
10-13-2005, 12:53 AM
It's amazing how the wording in the Constitution has been twisted and taken out of context over the years.

I guarantee when our founding fathers came up with the idea of "separation of church and state" they did NOT intend it to mean no church related doctrines or wording can be associated with any government funded agency.

It you actually STUDY and read the constitution and the Declaration of Independence it's quite clear this provision was included as a way to insure that the government could never enforce ONE NATIONAL religion upon Americans. Remember, many people left Great Britain to escape the "National Religion" of the Roman Catholic church. They wanted to make sure everyone had the opportnuity to worship the way they wanted to worship. They did not intenf for us to go so far as to say you can't post teh Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or say "Under God" in a pledge of Allegiance to our nation's flag, because it might make a small number of people "uncomfortable."

Heaven forbid we make anyone feel uncomfortable. It's impossible to go through life without ever offending someone or making them feel uncomfortable. I don't drink, but I am around a lot of people that do drink. When they are all drinking and trying to get me to join in it makes me feel uncomfortable. Does that mean no one should be allowed to drink around me because I feel pressured to "fit in" and join them??? Of course not!!! I may stand out, but that's a choice I make.

It's the same for a non-Christian on a football team that is praying before a game. So what if they feel uncomfortable? No one is forcing EVERY KID to say the Lord's Prayer, or to even bow their heads. I seriously doubt there is a "watchdog coach" going around slapping kids they see who don't have their heads bowed or don't move their lips while others are praying. If you are an atheist, use that time instead to focus "your positive energy" to prepare for the game.

This PC crap of "if it offended anyone, no one should be allowed to do it anymore" is becoming the downfall of our country. It's making us a wimpy society that will eventually destroy itself. Morals have gone down the toilet too. The next thing you know we'll be like the Romans where wild drunken orgies will be the social norm. Those of us who stayed awake in history class know what the end result was for the Romans. The rest of you should wake up see what's going on around you. Ask yourself... who had higher moral standards: today's society or society in the 1700's when this country was founded?

bubbacoach
10-13-2005, 07:22 AM
It's amazing how the wording in the Constitution has been twisted and taken out of context over the years.

I guarantee when our founding fathers came up with the idea of "separation of church and state" they did NOT intend it to mean no church related doctrines or wording can be associated with any government funded agency.

It you actually STUDY and read the constitution and the Declaration of Independence it's quite clear this provision was included as a way to insure that the government could never enforce ONE NATIONAL religion upon Americans. Remember, many people left Great Britain to escape the "National Religion" of the Roman Catholic church. They wanted to make sure everyone had the opportnuity to worship the way they wanted to worship. They did not intenf for us to go so far as to say you can't post teh Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or say "Under God" in a pledge of Allegiance to our nation's flag, because it might make a small number of people "uncomfortable."

Heaven forbid we make anyone feel uncomfortable. It's impossible to go through life without ever offending someone or making them feel uncomfortable. I don't drink, but I am around a lot of people that do drink. When they are all drinking and trying to get me to join in it makes me feel uncomfortable. Does that mean no one should be allowed to drink around me because I feel pressured to "fit in" and join them??? Of course not!!! I may stand out, but that's a choice I make.

It's the same for a non-Christian on a football team that is praying before a game. So what if they feel uncomfortable? No one is forcing EVERY KID to say the Lord's Prayer, or to even bow their heads. I seriously doubt there is a "watchdog coach" going around slapping kids they see who don't have their heads bowed or don't move their lips while others are praying. If you are an atheist, use that time instead to focus "your positive energy" to prepare for the game.

This PC crap of "if it offended anyone, no one should be allowed to do it anymore" is becoming the downfall of our country. It's making us a wimpy society that will eventually destroy itself. Morals have gone down the toilet too. The next thing you know we'll be like the Romans where wild drunken orgies will be the social norm. Those of us who stayed awake in history class know what the end result was for the Romans. The rest of you should wake up see what's going on around you. Ask yourself... who had higher moral standards: today's society or society in the 1700's when this country was founded?
The society we live in is a society that is greedy, it does have morals that are slipping away, it is getting worse. If you people, who do not believe in prayer at school would just take a second and look at our society as a whole right now, you would see it heading in the wrong direction. In my study of Ecclesiates (the wisest, richest man that ever lived) I have learned that chasing all monetary happiness in the world is futile. He talks about having all the women he could ever want, he talks about ruling all the land he wanted, he talked about having all the booze he wanted, he talked about owning thousands of horses, having 100's of slaves, but none of this made him happy until he realized it was all meaningless without GOD. Once he accepted the fact that GOD is a powerful being he found happiness. He understood that regardless of what you accomplish or what you earn that you will return to the earth with exactly what you brought into it. Everything you accomplish everything you achieve will be forgotten within 100 years of your death. So, Why do we do it? There are the obvious reasons to provide shelter, to provide food, to provide substinence for our family. Other than that we want to be the wealthiest, the best looking, the most popular for selfish reasons. These things will never make you happy. The more money you make, the more money you want to make. Being caught up in physical beauty, yea, lets all go get cosmetic surgery. Like all the happy people in Hollywood at their drug rehab centers. If you accept and believe that their is a master plan for all of us. It will make your life much easier. And remember this "THE GREAT ONE", there is only one truly great one and it is not you. It is GOD!!!!!!

TigerV1
10-13-2005, 07:39 AM
No one is keeping you from your right to pray....and you know that! You seem offended in the fact that there are millions of human beings in this world who choose not to acknowledge religion...let alone pray in public schools.

And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!


Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?

BigArab
10-13-2005, 08:05 AM
As much as I hate to jump back into this one, I have to burst some bubbles. Am I a Christian? Yes. Do I think this country's moral standards have gone down the tube? Yes. Should we allow someone to break the law just because we agree with his stance? Absolutely not.

First of all, history lesson: The people came here to escape the Church of England (the Protestant Church). Secondly, truth be told, most of the founding fathers were diest. They believed in a higher power, but they thought he just spun the world in motion like a spinning top and they were all (basically) alone on the planet. One of those grievances talked about in the Declaration of Independence is taxation without respresentation (some of that going to the Church of England, which they came to this country to get away from.) Did they want freedom of religion in this country? YES! But not to make Christianity the state religion. That would've been following suit with what England was doing.

Now with that said, while it is upsetting to the coach, and to a lot of you, it is FEDERAL LAW that he, in a public position, cannot lead students in prayer. While he may feel he is doing the right thing by resigning, he's going against scripture where it says that we must follow the laws of our government, even if we feel they are not right. God has given them power to govern these people.

I am certain this is all within His divine plan, and something good will come out of this either way. Nothing happens on this planet without God's consent or previous knowledge. And quit trying to crucify The Great One. If you forget all other verses, remember "Justice is mine, sayeth the Lord."

GARLAND99
10-13-2005, 08:59 AM
This country was founded on the basis of Christian beliefs. This country was once GREAT because of our Christian ways of doing things. Every building in Washington DC has some sort of Religious markings on it or in it. MONEY...The most prized possession to many of the people in this country says "IN GOD WE TRUST". But yet we say that the Church and State should be seperate. What a joke.

The problem is this. OUR country has become one in which the person or group that complains the most and the loudest gets their way. The problem with that is obvious. The unfortunate thing is that their aren't enough Christian organizations that are stepping up and competing with these other complaining groups. I mean it's rediculous. 3 or 4 years ago a state had to take off the little saying from their car license plates because it made referance to GOD. Do the same people that complained about that still use OUR MONEY??? I hope not, but then again it wouldn't benefit them to stop using money.

Joseph Stalin (Czar of Russia) once said that the United States would collapse from with-in. Looks like he knew what he was talking about.

toonman
10-13-2005, 09:06 AM
Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.

pack0808
10-13-2005, 09:06 AM
Political Corectness will be the death of this country.

I'm more angry at how 1 or 2 guys can run this country just by causing a fuss. Since 1951, when "under God" was placed in the pledge it hasn't caused trouble. Then 1 guy who has nothing better to do causes a ruckus and because everyone is afriad of being unPC we let this 1 guy change a harmless system (Guarntee you he went home the next day and said "thank GOD I won"). This countiry has lost the majority of its fighting spirit, GOD help us if we get into a major war where we need a draft.


Amen!! I have this argument too many times in here and i am not wanting to get into it again. My stance is clear and it is clear to the vast majority of Americans. Scary what a few activist can do?? Either way i am not going there again. I am done!!

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:13 AM
I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!
I prayed that God will make himself known to you. I haven't seen him, but I have been guided by Him in my daily life. The Holy Spirit guides us and we all have a still small spirit inside us that talks to us.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:15 AM
I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one
And that's a good thing!

LPFAN
10-13-2005, 09:15 AM
Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.
It is very simple. If you don't want to see anything that is written about this topic all you have to do is SKIP THIS THREAD. There are alot of threads on here that I have no interest in even if they are one of the newest ones. So I just don't read them. It is not that hard to do. But I guess you will be one of the ones that will say even discussing the topic makes you uncomfortable so it should be banned huh. It is crazy because I think a lot of the clueless members on here post ridiculous comments on here and I don't like it (makes me feel uncomfortable...lol) but I will not go and try to have them banned just because I don't like their way of doing things.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:17 AM
I'll be the last person to say we need to force those who don't want to pray to pray, but what we've done in this country is a crime. We've taken away the free exercise of prayer all in the name of not offending people. I still say the people should be allowed to leave to not hear prayer vs. not allowing it.

LPFAN
10-13-2005, 09:21 AM
Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.
And in case you didn't read the beginning of the thread it did have to do with Football and Prayer. In case you haven't been around football for long there has been Prayer at football games for a long time all around the country. I know it has been around East Texas for a long time.

JC73
10-13-2005, 09:22 AM
The thing about this argument is that in the end, it will be settled.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:22 AM
It's dumb how this country is fallen apart........taking "under God" out of the Pledge......When I played football we prayed in Jr. High before a game and in high school we prayed everyday after practice and no1 ever had a problem with it........Just amazes me how this nation is starting to turn out.
There has always been an element of rebellion in the U.S. who didn't want to live according to the Bible and a lot of them moved west in the 1800's. The big thing is the socialist/communist movement that started in the 1800's. It's the forerunner of our CURRENT political system and actions and has shaped our education system. The Soviet Union knew how to take down our society, but they were too stupid to see the same thing is what ruined them.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:26 AM
After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(
You'll never win him over with comments like that. Those who don't believe will never believe if not shown love. There is a difference between love and acceptance and ignoring sin, but you must always be mindful to love a person and not like their actions only.

Kingwolf
10-13-2005, 09:26 AM
don't agree with the deist theory big arab...i have seen too many documents signed by those founding fathers who mentioned Christ as well as other sources(have seen many of these in my graduate studies)....otherwise you are pretty sound....the Chuch of England was definitely the culprit as well as the Catholic church for other parts of Europe....

the pledge of allegiance, if you are unaware, was changed as much as a reference to God as to the spread of communism...remember McCarthy???

Arab the argument about following the law of the government is true, however if you read a little further it also clarifies as long as that does not go against scripture.......


Now my view, in our country he does NOT have the right to force his beliefs on anyone, it should have been handled in a better way...by doing so it could cost the school district millions, ie lawsuits...As far as the coach goes, I agree the man has a right to quit on his principles...

and let THEGREATONE believe as he wishes, don't dog him for it...one of my friends is an agnostic, and it is his choice...many dont except religion b/c of the way people have acted in its name as TGO has argued...

Great one, what i will say is this, there is a man named Lee Stroebel who was an atheist who wrote several books on some of the very arguments you brought up, ie science or past behaviors...check him out or i will gladly send them to you.........

the other remark about the bible not being true, i have had classes on Koine Greek that the new testament was written in and will hopefully soon start Hebrew for the old testament...I have also had classes on the history of these two texts (from unbiased standpoint) as well as archeaology on the NT and you would really be suprised how unchanged these documents really are from the original manuscripts that have been found..........

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:29 AM
The society we live in is a society that is greedy, it does have morals that are slipping away, it is getting worse. If you people, who do not believe in prayer at school would just take a second and look at our society as a whole right now, you would see it heading in the wrong direction. In my study of Ecclesiates (the wisest, richest man that ever lived) I have learned that chasing all monetary happiness in the world is futile. He talks about having all the women he could ever want, he talks about ruling all the land he wanted, he talked about having all the booze he wanted, he talked about owning thousands of horses, having 100's of slaves, but none of this made him happy until he realized it was all meaningless without GOD. Once he accepted the fact that GOD is a powerful being he found happiness. He understood that regardless of what you accomplish or what you earn that you will return to the earth with exactly what you brought into it. Everything you accomplish everything you achieve will be forgotten within 100 years of your death. So, Why do we do it? There are the obvious reasons to provide shelter, to provide food, to provide substinence for our family. Other than that we want to be the wealthiest, the best looking, the most popular for selfish reasons. These things will never make you happy. The more money you make, the more money you want to make. Being caught up in physical beauty, yea, lets all go get cosmetic surgery. Like all the happy people in Hollywood at their drug rehab centers. If you accept and believe that their is a master plan for all of us. It will make your life much easier. And remember this "THE GREAT ONE", there is only one truly great one and it is not you. It is GOD!!!!!!
Solomon lost everything because he lost his first love with God. He married all those other women and they turned his love away from God. His blessings went with it. Life is much smoother when you allow God to be in control.

pack0808
10-13-2005, 09:33 AM
don't agree with the deist theory big arab...i have seen too many documents signed by those founding fathers who mentioned Christ as well as other sources(have seen many of these in my graduate studies)....otherwise you are pretty sound....the Chuch of England was definitely the culprit as well as the Catholic church for other parts of Europe....

the pledge of allegiance, if you are unaware, was changed as much as a reference to God as to the spread of communism...remember McCarthy???

Arab the argument about following the law of the government is true, however if you read a little further it also clarifies as long as that does not go against scripture.......


Now my view, in our country he does NOT have the right to force his beliefs on anyone, it should have been handled in a better way...by doing so it could cost the school district millions, ie lawsuits...As far as the coach goes, I agree the man has a right to quit on his principles...

and let THEGREATONE believe as he wishes, don't dog him for it...one of my friends is an agnostic, and it is his choice...many dont except religion b/c of the way people have acted in its name as TGO has argued...

Great one, what i will say is this, there is a man named Lee Stroebel who was an atheist who wrote several books on some of the very arguments you brought up, ie science or past behaviors...check him out or i will gladly send them to you.........

the other remark about the bible not being true, i have had classes on Koine Greek that the new testament was written in and will hopefully soon start Hebrew for the old testament...I have also had classes on the history of these two texts (from unbiased standpoint) as well as archeaology on the NT and you would really be suprised how unchanged these documents really are from the original manuscripts that have been found..........


I have read a Lee Stroebel book. Great stuff! Talk about going by only facts. That book will surprise you with factual research that really makes you think!! :eek:

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:33 AM
Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?
No, because there are very few athiests out there. We are created with the knowledge that a supreme being (God) exists. Most people who say they're athiests know God exists, but they say there is no God because they're mad at God for some reason. That's why they attack God. You don't need to attack something you don't think exists.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 09:36 AM
This country was founded on the basis of Christian beliefs. This country was once GREAT because of our Christian ways of doing things. Every building in Washington DC has some sort of Religious markings on it or in it. MONEY...The most prized possession to many of the people in this country says "IN GOD WE TRUST". But yet we say that the Church and State should be seperate. What a joke.

The problem is this. OUR country has become one in which the person or group that complains the most and the loudest gets their way. The problem with that is obvious. The unfortunate thing is that their aren't enough Christian organizations that are stepping up and competing with these other complaining groups. I mean it's rediculous. 3 or 4 years ago a state had to take off the little saying from their car license plates because it made referance to GOD. Do the same people that complained about that still use OUR MONEY??? I hope not, but then again it wouldn't benefit them to stop using money.

Joseph Stalin (Czar of Russia) once said that the United States would collapse from with-in. Looks like he knew what he was talking about.
Yeah, they knew it would collapse and the USSR said they were going to do it. They published 43 Soviet goals for the U.S. in the Congressional Record in 1963 and they pulled them off. You used to be able to find the goals on Mancow's website.

Fleeman93
10-13-2005, 09:44 AM
You can't blame the district for making the decision that they did based on the coach or coaches leading in prayer. Right or wrong I would have to guess that the district was simply looking out for the best intrest of the district. Lawsuits could have cost the district millions and that wouldn't be good for anyone. The team can still have team prayer anytime they want.

SVite
10-13-2005, 09:45 AM
Seperate prayer from school.lets see who started schools in this country?Could it be the christians?Who started hospitals in this country?could it be the christians?Both of these instuitions,have gotten out of control.The atheist took prayer, and the word of Jesus (bible)out of the school in the early 60`s.You go back and do a study of how the school systems have changed for the worse since the 60`s.They took the bible out,and brought in the weapons,and drugs,and took the authority of the teachers and flushed it.If you think that evil,and sin was higher in sodom,and gamorah than it is in todays towns,your wrong.We`re like thousands of times more evil ,than the 2 cities that God wiped off the face of the earth.Scientist have found brimstone all over where those 2 cities used to be.Stone that is not found any where else on this earth.We are all made eternal,eternal death,or eternal life.It`s worth seeking the truth.

We all buy insurances of all kinds,to bail us out.Is it stupid to search for the Real life insurance,the eternal life.

BigArab
10-13-2005, 09:55 AM
First of all, Stalin was not a Czar. Second of all, while many founding fathers were Protestant or Calvinist, many were Deist as well. I promise you. Deist reject "revelations" in favor of reason. Many of these guys thought they were too intelligent to believe in God giving you divine revelations.

But, while you are correct about not following law that goes against the law of God, they aren't asking him to not practice religion; they're telling him that he can't make others practice it. I know I know...it probably wasn't his intention to force anything, but this is the law.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 10:01 AM
First of all, Stalin was not a Czar. Second of all, while many founding fathers were Protestant or Calvinist, many were Deist as well. I promise you. Deist reject "revelations" in favor of reason. Many of these guys thought they were too intelligent to believe in God giving you divine revelations.

But, while you are correct about not following law that goes against the law of God, they aren't asking him to not practice religion; they're telling him that he can't make others practice it. I know I know...it probably wasn't his intention to force anything, but this is the law.
We had people like Alexander Hamilton who didn't appear to be in lockstep with God. Others like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson weren't completely card carrying Bible thumpers even though they read the Bible and believed in God.

BigArab
10-13-2005, 10:06 AM
We had people like Alexander Hamilton who didn't appear to be in lockstep with God. Others like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson weren't completely card carrying Bible thumpers even though they read the Bible and believed in God.

Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Payne, and George Washington were "undefined" deists. At this time, deism wasn't necessarily defined, but most of these men rejected Godly revelations in favor for their own intelligence and reason.

Albert Einstein was a deist.

Bottom line...Let's talk about some football!

toonman
10-13-2005, 11:42 AM
I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.

Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.

EastTexasDad
10-13-2005, 11:44 AM
Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.

You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 11:48 AM
You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.
Come on, don't say that.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 11:52 AM
Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.
He is a just God. He gave us free will to love him when he created us. He also said there is consequences for our sins. Things do happen as a consequence for our sins, but a lot of these world events happen to draw us closer to the end time. Tragedy also brings us closer to God and humbles us if we react the right way. Because you don't serve God, His ways are foreign to you. That's not the best way, but I understand it and pray that you'll understand one day by having a loving relationship with your creator.

BigArab
10-13-2005, 12:03 PM
You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.

It is also punishment because of the likes of you. Lest you forget, we are all fallible creatures. Any sin you commit compared to any sin an atheist commits is equal in the eyes of the Lord.

EastTexasDad
10-13-2005, 12:07 PM
It is also punishment because of the likes of you. Lest you forget, we are all fallible creatures. Any sin you commit compared to any sin an atheist commits is equal in the eyes of the Lord.

Perhaps you are right but in the end non-believers will not be forgiven for their sins and will burn in the lake of fire. While those who believe and ask for forgiveness will find their place next to the right hand. WHICH WILL YOU BE??

BigArab
10-13-2005, 12:09 PM
Perhaps you are right but in the end non-believers will not be forgiven for their sins and will burn in the lake of fire. While those who believe and ask for forgiveness will find their place next to the right hand. WHICH WILL YOU BE??

This is true, but atheist cannot come to Father except through the Son, and how will they believe in the Son when you get in their face and say "THE TSUNAMI IS BECAUSE OF YOU, HEATHEN!! REPENT!!" That isn't loving, it sure as heck isn't Christ-like, and it is completely false to blame punishment for sin in this life on non-believers.

toonman
10-13-2005, 12:11 PM
You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.
I have not killed a person in the name of god. I accept all christian values; honor thy father and thy mother, do not commit adultery, do not steal etc, but because I do not believe in your god, this makes me a bad person. I know many many people who go to church, declare themselves as followers of god, and yet are dishonest, lie, steal and even kill. I am honest with my views, I respect the rights of others, I respect the law - yet what is wrong with the world, you say, is because of hard working, honest people like me, who do not share the belief of creationism. If you represent the believers of this world, then yes we do have a problem in the world today. The problem of the world today is forcing the concept of creationism and a god on others. I do not spend my day trying to convince others of my view, all you believers should do the same – accept that people do have a different view to you and your view may not be the correct one, just as my view may not be the correct one. Anyway, I am happy person, I enjoy life to the full and I like nothing better than ‘Friday Night Football’

EastTexasDad
10-13-2005, 12:13 PM
This is true, but atheist cannot come to Father except through the Son, and how will they believe in the Son when you get in their face and say "THE TSUNAMI IS BECAUSE OF YOU, HEATHEN!! REPENT!!" That isn't loving, it sure as heck isn't Christ-like, and it is completely false to blame punishment for sin in this life on non-believers.


Truth is the truth. I see you forget Noah. Was the world not destroyed due to the wickedness of man??

BigArab
10-13-2005, 12:18 PM
Truth is the truth. I see you forget Noah. Was the world not destroyed due to the wickedness of man??

Is that to say that Noah was the only Godly person left?

Regardless, that was back before Christ, where favor with God was found in how good you were and how many animal sacrifices you made.

Bottom line, we are all crap. You cannot blame natural disaster or any punishment on everyone else excluding yourself. Yes, man in general is wicked nowadays, but I am no better than the man sitting on death row for murder.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 12:21 PM
I appreciate all the people who state Christian beliefs on here. You are to be commended for your enthusiasm, but there is a thing called wisdom and some of you aren't using it. I've been trying to police this thread because you're doing more harm than good. Jesus loved people and met them at their need. After that, he would tell them, "Go and sin no more." He would've never reached them if he came to them condemning them for their sins. You have to show love in your words.

The Lone Ranger
10-13-2005, 12:36 PM
Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Payne, and George Washington were "undefined" deists. At this time, deism wasn't necessarily defined, but most of these men rejected Godly revelations in favor for their own intelligence and reason.

One of our country's founding father's (Thomas Jefferson) wrote a version of the Gospel without any reference to miracles or a God. It just had what he believed was a great moral system to live by. Check it out here (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/).

The freedom to express a religion or not to express one is what our country was founded on. It was also founded on a belief in living a moral and ethical life...but the US Constitution doesn't say ANYTHING about accepting Jesus before burning in hell. In fact, only 3 of the Commandments are law: Don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness in a court of law.

It's official policy in Texas' public schools to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance and a minute of silence. Students are free to recite or not recite the Pledge or parts of the pledge, but must maintain a reverent atmosphere. Students are also allowed to pray or meditate during the moment of silence. They also have the option NOT to do so.

This is how it should be in public schools: a moment of silence. No required Evangelical prayer, no required nothing except for reverence.

And by the way, our Country's motto has been "E Plurubus Unum" since 1787. That's what's great about America...we can all come together in our differences to be one America (unless they are political or religious differences in recent times...those are divisive). "In God We Trust" was added in 1954 to "protect us from the Godless Commie Heathens." This isn't a problem any more. It shouldn't have ever been added to the Pledge, but it should be removed because it is un-American...divisive to the people.

What ever happened to "One Nation, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all"?

Christianity is a lot like Communism...it works well in theory, but then the leaders and proletariats of the group change the original ideas to fit their agenda. I really doubt that any loving, forgiving, caring God would send his son to save Earth, but only those people who profess faith in his greatness. Didn't Jesus preach AGAINST hypocrisy, not for it?

lonny23
10-13-2005, 12:40 PM
One of our country's founding father's (Thomas Jefferson) wrote a version of the Gospel without any reference to miracles or a God. It just had what he believed was a great moral system to live by. Check it out here (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/).

The freedom to express a religion or not to express one is what our country was founded on. It was also founded on a belief in living a moral and ethical life...but the US Constitution doesn't say ANYTHING about accepting Jesus before burning in hell. In fact, only 3 of the Commandments are law: Don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness in a court of law.

It's official policy in Texas' public schools to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance and a minute of silence. Students are free to recite or not recite the Pledge or parts of the pledge, but must maintain a reverent atmosphere. Students are also allowed to pray or meditate during the moment of silence. They also have the option NOT to do so.

This is how it should be in public schools: a moment of silence. No required Evangelical prayer, no required nothing except for reverence.

And by the way, our Country's motto has been "E Plurubus Unum" since 1787. That's what's great about America...we can all come together in our differences to be one America (unless they are political or religious differences in recent times...those are divisive). "In God We Trust" was added in 1954 to "protect us from the Godless Commie Heathens." This isn't a problem any more. It shouldn't have ever been added to the Pledge, but it should be removed because it is un-American...divisive to the people.

What ever happened to "One Nation, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all"?

Christianity is a lot like Communism...it works well in theory, but then the leaders and proletariats of the group change the original ideas to fit their agenda. I really doubt that any loving, forgiving, caring God would send his son to save Earth, but only those people who profess faith in his greatness. Didn't Jesus preach AGAINST hypocrisy, not for it?
Yep, he sent His son to die on a cross. That's real love. He died for all of us whether we believe in him, love him, or accept him. We're humans and the good in religion is always threatened by man's actions. That doesn't make it any less relevant or necessary.

raidercheerdad
10-13-2005, 01:18 PM
the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!

Butch Fifield
10-13-2005, 01:29 PM
I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes.

So, are these organized prayers, or are you able to do this on your own? Without having someone in authority organizing a prayer for you, you are still able to pray aren't you?

lonny23
10-13-2005, 01:39 PM
I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!
Your goal is great, but your reaction is not productive. I'm going to tell you the same thing I'm telling everybody else. Please listen to what I say, because you'll be a much more effective witness because of it. Please lose the upset words because God is challenged. It hurts him to be rejected, but it comes with free will. Have patience that you can make a difference over time. It's not a short-term battle or war. The enemy comes against us to be obstacles to non-believers to keep them away from God. He also places doubt in the minds of non-believers to question and not believe what we say.

dragonfootballfan
10-13-2005, 02:39 PM
I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!
I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.

lonny23
10-13-2005, 03:30 PM
I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.
I hope nothing else stirs you up. Please understand that a lot of the people who post here are zealous in their belief, but haven't figured out how to properly express their beliefs. I'll make it clear what I think, but I'm also cognizant to not condemn others for not feeling the same way.

raidercheerdad
10-13-2005, 03:52 PM
I hope nothing else stirs you up. Please understand that a lot of the people who post here are zealous in their belief, but haven't figured out how to properly express their beliefs. I'll make it clear what I think, but I'm also cognizant to not condemn others for not feeling the same way.

So as not to be misquoted and misunderstood, I'll let the Holy Bible speak for itself. Either Jesus was crazy or He was who He said He IS.

John 14:6-7

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Redneckn
10-13-2005, 04:45 PM
I just want to know why it is that all these f-ing communists want to try and change this country. If you dont like what America is or where it came from, go away. This country was founded on Christianity, you are free to not choose that. But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us. Just go to some other country that doesnt believe in God. Might I suggest Iraq?

Butch Fifield
10-13-2005, 06:55 PM
But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us.

Nobody is forcing non-beliefs on your kids. Praying is a private, personal thing that is between you and your God. Every kid can and has the right to pray in the locker room, or on the sideline, or in the huddle. He can sit there for a minute or whatever it takes to pray. He does not need the government (school) to tell him to pray.

If parents want their children to pray, they need to teach their children how to pray and make sure they pray. We surely don't need the government telling us how and when to do this. It is none of their business.

jrp83
10-13-2005, 07:34 PM
When I was in high school, I participated in a number of sports. The coaches always prayed before and after every event. It's a shame that the actions of a few have an affect on so many. Most people welcome prayer. The few that don't are getting things changed to fit their beliefs. The problem is that the "few" are well organized and the "many" are not. I think the students that don't care for prayer should leave the room, that way they can't be offended. What about the rights of the students who do want to pray? Why should 1 or 2 students have the right to enforce their beliefs. Again, it's ashame.

Butch Fifield
10-13-2005, 07:40 PM
What about the rights of the students who do want to pray? Why should 1 or 2 students have the right to enforce their beliefs. Again, it's ashame.

who exactly is stopping these kids from praying?

Hdshrinker
10-13-2005, 07:47 PM
Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?


The great one is simply spouting rhetoric that he has heard....you can't blame a kid for repeating what he has heard all his life...... I knew a kid like this once.... turned out to be a pretty good fellow when he grew up. Joined the navy, became a responsible citizen of this imperilist (sp) nation.....

SVite
10-13-2005, 08:03 PM
I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.

The difference between the muderer,that MADE the Savior his lord,and the man that had wonderful works,without the savoir,is GRACE (unmerited favor).In the old covenant,after the fall of man through adam,God made away to get sin off of you,through the sacrificial blood of a lamb.This was only good till you sinned again.So there was a bunch of sacrafices on behalf of the high priest,that God had set up through the tribe of the Levites.You took that blood and put it on the door post of your home.So when the angel of death came over your home he would Passover,and you would be saved.if you didnt have the blood of the lamb on your doorpost,then the angel of death would devour you(death).This went on for like 4 thousand years.God sent His son to be the lamb once and for all,which was prophisied in just about every book in the old covenant(old testiment),over 3 thousand years before He came.When Jesus did the will of His Father,and gave himself as sacrafice,he is the eternal atonment (Lambs blood) for sin.

If you recieve the savior (Jesus)the eternal lamb of God the Father,then His shed blood covers your sin,and the angel of death in no way can take you,because Jesus died your death on the cross,He took your place,my place.If you dont have Jesus as your Lord,by default you were born to the god of this earth satan.Because satan stole the dominion given to our great,great great etc. grandfather Adam.The new covenant written in the blood of Jesus,is the will of Jesus.Someone has to die for a will to take place,Jesus died,and gave us to be Heirs,to His Father,and if Heirs,then sons,and daughters.I could go on ,and on.He Loves so much,that He sent His only Son,to cover the sins of every one.It cost Jesus Great pain,on the cross,but it`s free to us,by simply asking "Jesus I make you my Lord,and Savior.It`s that easy!!God the Father is Holy (set apart from sin)He cannot have sin in His presence.Jesus is the bridge to the Father.And when we lose this sinful flesh,then we will be sin free,and be able to go to the throne of God in Heaven,and see the real life,He intended for us all along.You dont have to clean up to recieve Jesus as Lord,He`ll clean you up,with the Holy spirit.Find out for your self,what have you got to lose,you have everything to gain.He Loves,and expects us to seek this knowledge.This is the meat of the gospel (good news)this is`nt milk.But,when you become christian (in Christ)(the annointed one)you first drink the milk,then,the meat will come as you are growing up in Jesus.Sorry so long :)

baylordad
10-13-2005, 08:20 PM
I just want to know why it is that all these f-ing communists want to try and change this country. If you dont like what America is or where it came from, go away. This country was founded on Christianity, you are free to not choose that. But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us. Just go to some other country that doesnt believe in God. Might I suggest Iraq?
Amen Brother!!

Lee05
10-13-2005, 09:06 PM
i didn't know this was church service, but whatever. as for america being founded by christian ideals, maybe you should take a history lesson. george washington, thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton were not christian, they held philosophy above any sort of organized religion. as for "in god we trust" on our money, it wasn't enacted until 1955 by eisenhower. i'm not christian but i have looked into every religion and many many different schools of philosophic thought. what i fail to understand is why you think this country was founded on christianity? it's a proven FACT that it is not true, and i even gave you some of the most inspirational american icons as proof. where my problem comes in is the fact that most christians refuse to look at facts and are so caught up in their own ideals that just dismiss everything that they don't agree with, i'm sorry if you don't agree with it but it's the truth. america was founded on religious freedom so as to not be persecuted by your fellow people for what you believe, NOT CHRISTIANITY. easttxdad is the stereotypical east texas baptist, so don't pay him much mind, because they're usually the most hypocritical of all of them.

as for the coach he shouldn't have done that, and it was extremely selfish of him to choose stepping down when it came between his quitting or just choosing not to say a pregame prayer.

DiamondJ2
10-13-2005, 10:29 PM
I always beleived in the majority rules in a democratic society, but as I grow older I realize that is not true. The NJ coach was forcing his beliefs on others. What about the few players that are forcing their beliefs on the majority? I understand the law which came about because of the few (minority) who cried the loudest. The arguement about church vs state will always be present, just like who's the best: SLC, Longview, Lufkin, etc. By the way, right now, SLC is still the best, but, wait, I'm sorry, please don't read that statement, I don't want to force my beliefs on any of you.

BigArab
10-13-2005, 10:32 PM
I always beleived in the majority rules in a democratic society, but as I grow older I realize that is not true. The NJ coach was forcing his beliefs on others. What about the few players that are forcing their beliefs on the majority? I understand the law which came about because of the few (minority) who cried the loudest. The arguement about church vs state will always be present, just like who's the best: SLC, Longview, Lufkin, etc. By the way, right now, SLC is still the best, but, wait, I'm sorry, please don't read that statement, I don't want to force my beliefs on any of you.
LIES!! ;)

lonny23
10-14-2005, 07:32 AM
So as not to be misquoted and misunderstood, I'll let the Holy Bible speak for itself. Either Jesus was crazy or He was who He said He IS.

John 14:6-7

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
There is one way and you have no arguments from me there. All I'm saying is that we can share what we know with others, but the time has to be right and their heart needs to be prepared for it. I've seen a lot of people driven away from God because of what somebody said in an earnest effort to help. Just read how some people here react to some comments.

Please believe me on this one, because God puts people in my path who doubt his existence. They're a different breed of person and it takes various methods to reach them for the Lord.

lonny23
10-14-2005, 07:38 AM
The difference between the muderer,that MADE the Savior his lord,and the man that had wonderful works,without the savoir,is GRACE (unmerited favor).In the old covenant,after the fall of man through adam,God made away to get sin off of you,through the sacrificial blood of a lamb.This was only good till you sinned again.So there was a bunch of sacrafices on behalf of the high priest,that God had set up through the tribe of the Levites.You took that blood and put it on the door post of your home.So when the angel of death came over your home he would Passover,and you would be saved.if you didnt have the blood of the lamb on your doorpost,then the angel of death would devour you(death).This went on for like 4 thousand years.God sent His son to be the lamb once and for all,which was prophisied in just about every book in the old covenant(old testiment),over 3 thousand years before He came.When Jesus did the will of His Father,and gave himself as sacrafice,he is the eternal atonment (Lambs blood) for sin.

If you recieve the savior (Jesus)the eternal lamb of God the Father,then His shed blood covers your sin,and the angel of death in no way can take you,because Jesus died your death on the cross,He took your place,my place.If you dont have Jesus as your Lord,by default you were born to the god of this earth satan.Because satan stole the dominion given to our great,great great etc. grandfather Adam.The new covenant written in the blood of Jesus,is the will of Jesus.Someone has to die for a will to take place,Jesus died,and gave us to be Heirs,to His Father,and if Heirs,then sons,and daughters.I could go on ,and on.He Loves so much,that He sent His only Son,to cover the sins of every one.It cost Jesus Great pain,on the cross,but it`s free to us,by simply asking "Jesus I make you my Lord,and Savior.It`s that easy!!God the Father is Holy (set apart from sin)He cannot have sin in His presence.Jesus is the bridge to the Father.And when we lose this sinful flesh,then we will be sin free,and be able to go to the throne of God in Heaven,and see the real life,He intended for us all along.You dont have to clean up to recieve Jesus as Lord,He`ll clean you up,with the Holy spirit.Find out for your self,what have you got to lose,you have everything to gain.He Loves,and expects us to seek this knowledge.This is the meat of the gospel (good news)this is`nt milk.But,when you become christian (in Christ)(the annointed one)you first drink the milk,then,the meat will come as you are growing up in Jesus.Sorry so long :)
That's a very good post. You told the truth and didn't let emotions get in the way of what you said. I can't tell you how important it is to stay calm when discussing spiritual matters. People will give scenarios and ask questions, divert your attention and a lot of other stuff that the enemy tries to throw in your way. If you love them through the questions, you can reach them. We can't take it personally when somebody says something because they are spiritually blinded.

lonny23
10-14-2005, 07:40 AM
Amen Brother!!
You guys don't need to say that stuff. Please don't incite more problems in this thread.

lonny23
10-14-2005, 07:43 AM
i didn't know this was church service, but whatever. as for america being founded by christian ideals, maybe you should take a history lesson. george washington, thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton were not christian, they held philosophy above any sort of organized religion. as for "in god we trust" on our money, it wasn't enacted until 1955 by eisenhower. i'm not christian but i have looked into every religion and many many different schools of philosophic thought. what i fail to understand is why you think this country was founded on christianity? it's a proven FACT that it is not true, and i even gave you some of the most inspirational american icons as proof. where my problem comes in is the fact that most christians refuse to look at facts and are so caught up in their own ideals that just dismiss everything that they don't agree with, i'm sorry if you don't agree with it but it's the truth. america was founded on religious freedom so as to not be persecuted by your fellow people for what you believe, NOT CHRISTIANITY. easttxdad is the stereotypical east texas baptist, so don't pay him much mind, because they're usually the most hypocritical of all of them.

as for the coach he shouldn't have done that, and it was extremely selfish of him to choose stepping down when it came between his quitting or just choosing not to say a pregame prayer.
I'll give you that Alexander Hamilton had a lot of stuff that was outside of organized religion, but George Washington has a lot of quotes that indicate he believed in the God of the Bible. Over 90% of the guys who signed the Declaration of Independence went to church. James Madison was most definitely a churchgoer. Our most hallowed documents were crafted from the Bible.

The Lone Ranger
10-15-2005, 12:18 AM
Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!

The Lone Ranger
10-15-2005, 12:25 AM
The great one is simply spouting rhetoric that he has heard....you can't blame a kid for repeating what he has heard all his life...... I knew a kid like this once.... turned out to be a pretty good fellow when he grew up. Joined the navy, became a responsible citizen of this imperilist (sp) nation.....

You could say the same thing about Christians...

Most people have religion as a child, but become disenchanted as they grow older. It's pretty doubtful that he was raised as an atheist/agnostic/non-"Christian."

This board will be fine until people start quoting Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell...let's at least keep THEM out of it.

lonny23
10-16-2005, 06:01 PM
Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!
Thanks for the words. No, I don't say stuff like that because I know it doesn't work. It just makes people mad. I wish everybody knew that.

rangerpride
10-20-2005, 11:47 PM
Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!

Here's some interesting statements and quotes from our "founding fathers"...
Here's the Link (http://www.christianparents.com/lrconst.htm)

The First Amendment was clearly understood and explained by the man who wrote it and the man who first applied it as law. Fisher Ames wrote the First Amendment. He also wrote that the Bible should always remain the principle text book in America's classrooms. "

The Constitution of the United States of America was penned by the man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. That man, Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, was also the most active member of the Constitutional Convention. He spoke 173 times. He also advocated that "education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Hmmm.... so if the other 3% were "deist" as you say, that doesn't make a majority. In today's society, that 3% gets its way because (as stated earlier) that 3% is more organized and barks louder than the 97% percent group. So if 3% are offended by the actions of the 97%, the government no longer allows the 97% to practice their religion??? So much for "majority rules..."

I am VERY offended when people smoke around me... why doesn't the government say smokers can only smoke in the privacy of their own homes??? It offends me and makes me uncomfortable (not to mention the health hazards of 2nd hand smoke) yet the government will ban prayer before a football game because non-believers feel "pressured" to pray???

Political correctness at its finest... :mad:

Stallion Fan
10-21-2005, 12:29 AM
The thing about this argument is that in the end, it will be settled.

Ditto!

bleedgreen
10-21-2005, 01:43 AM
I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.
boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! thegreatone and dragonfootballfan---both of you need to be taken out back to the woodshed and have the crap kicked out of you from sunrise to sunset!! i just hope you two athiests are right on your beliefs or it's going to get really, really, really HOT when it's all said and done!!(and i believe in the latter!) my goodness, i can't believe what i'm hearing??? just like LPanther stated: who do you think created this world, and the universe, stars, planets, the sun, the moon??? what, evolution?? some turtles crawled up from the ocean to start life?? who the hell created the oceans and mountains geniuses??? aliens from another planet?? you guys are so cracked up that it's pathetic!! wouldn't be a bit surprised if some misfortune came your way pretty soon, or a lightning bolt--which ever comes first, just remember your statements on this board....i will say one thing to you both---don't ever attend a Lobo game...our players run to the endzone before EVERY game, take off their helmets, drop to their knees, and give thanks to the Almighty...as well as, taking off helmets, dropping to their knees, and praying for the injured during the game---that's class, brother!! if you were to even make a sound during those times, your heads would be rolling into the parking lot...your posts disgust me to the fullest!!!!!..........LPanther---one classy post, my friend...we all have our differences over things from time to time on this site, but i'm definitely with you on this!!!

bleedgreen
10-21-2005, 02:21 AM
toonman...you should be called toolman!! your quick to start naming off the disasters of late, BUT(and this is a stretch)if you read the Bible, you would know that we are in the "end of times" at this very moment.....9/11, wars, earthquakes, the never-ending hurricanes, diseases(AIDS--no cure..coincedence??--i think not)......ever heard of the book of Revelation?? how about the anti-Christ?? this was all foretold in Revelation..thing is, people didn't heed the warnings..now, that this is all happening, everyone is blaming God---how stupid can you really be?? how about Sodom and Gamorrah?? you are living in the present day Sodom and Gamorrah whether you accept it or not...did you think that Jesus would stand by and let us get away with everything that we want to?? you may think that you are getting away with things, and that everything is fine in that "happy go lucky" life of yours, but it will all come around and slap you dead in your mouth 10 fold...everything hidden will come into the light, you can bet on that..i'm living proof of it and my mind will NEVER be influenced any different or change... Satan is the ruler of this messed up planet of ours...why do you question God about these disasters?? why not question satan who has come on this earth to lie, kill, and destroy what God has created......it's obviously already working with you 4 guys on here who have spouted off your athiests beliefs...that's what satan is good at--telling lies to the weak-minded who will believe him...i guess it's 4 down and alot to go for your kind....hope you see the "Light" before it's too late....but, you probably won't...............

hornfan713
10-21-2005, 03:02 AM
I think that, regardless of what anyone believes, the coach should not have been involved. However, I think that there is a very reasonable compromise - have a player lead the prayer with a reading about competition, a prayer for a safe game or simply a moment of silence. As long as the players are allowed to do it themselves, anyone who doesn't want to won't feel as forced to pray like they might if the coach was leading.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-21-2005, 07:47 AM
boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! thegreatone and dragonfootballfan---both of you need to be taken out back to the woodshed and have the crap kicked out of you from sunrise to sunset!! i just hope you two athiests are right on your beliefs or it's going to get really, really, really HOT when it's all said and done!!(and i believe in the latter!) my goodness, i can't believe what i'm hearing??? just like LPanther stated: who do you think created this world, and the universe, stars, planets, the sun, the moon??? what, evolution?? some turtles crawled up from the ocean to start life?? who the hell created the oceans and mountains geniuses??? aliens from another planet?? you guys are so cracked up that it's pathetic!! wouldn't be a bit surprised if some misfortune came your way pretty soon, or a lightning bolt--which ever comes first, just remember your statements on this board....i will say one thing to you both---don't ever attend a Lobo game...our players run to the endzone before EVERY game, take off their helmets, drop to their knees, and give thanks to the Almighty...as well as, taking off helmets, dropping to their knees, and praying for the injured during the game---that's class, brother!! if you were to even make a sound during those times, your heads would be rolling into the parking lot...your posts disgust me to the fullest!!!!!..........LPanther---one classy post, my friend...we all have our differences over things from time to time on this site, but i'm definitely with you on this!!!

You're, unfortunately, the reason religion is more dangerous, IMO, than good. Because of your personal belief, you stand on pedestal and condem me and others for not believing the same as you.

If there is a God, he/she or it would of been smart enough to see this coming....and if he/she or it cared they would of made an appearance, by now.

(Uh...a real appearance! I believe it was the Son of Sam who said God was a dog, and it told him to kill. Was he wrong for his belief?)

toonman
10-21-2005, 08:08 AM
toonman...you should be called toolman!! your quick to start naming off the disasters of late, BUT(and this is a stretch)if you read the Bible, you would know that we are in the "end of times" at this very moment.....9/11, wars, earthquakes, the never-ending hurricanes, diseases(AIDS--no cure..coincedence??--i think not)......ever heard of the book of Revelation?? how about the anti-Christ?? this was all foretold in Revelation..thing is, people didn't heed the warnings..now, that this is all happening, everyone is blaming God---how stupid can you really be?? how about Sodom and Gamorrah?? you are living in the present day Sodom and Gamorrah whether you accept it or not...did you think that Jesus would stand by and let us get away with everything that we want to?? you may think that you are getting away with things, and that everything is fine in that "happy go lucky" life of yours, but it will all come around and slap you dead in your mouth 10 fold...everything hidden will come into the light, you can bet on that..i'm living proof of it and my mind will NEVER be influenced any different or change... Satan is the ruler of this messed up planet of ours...why do you question God about these disasters?? why not question satan who has come on this earth to lie, kill, and destroy what God has created......it's obviously already working with you 4 guys on here who have spouted off your athiests beliefs...that's what satan is good at--telling lies to the weak-minded who will believe him...i guess it's 4 down and alot to go for your kind....hope you see the "Light" before it's too late....but, you probably won't...............

Thank you for your enlightenment and I respect your vastly superior knowledge. With your great knowledge perhaps you could answer the following questions for me.

1). Where is heaven – we have sent space vehicles for billions of miles into space and no sign of heaven.

2). Where is hell, we know is not down below; as that just leads to the earth’s core.

3). How come not one soul has been found in any human autopsy.

4). If there is a heaven, do people continue to grow old or are they stuck in the time they died. If they continue to grow old, how will I recognize them? Is a baby who died 10 years ago now 10 years old?

5). If someone said that god had appeared to them, no one would believe and they would be labeled as being insane.

6). The bible was written when everyone thought the earth was flat. We know how wrong that theory was. How come the bible is now taken as fact?

7). Who has the right creator; christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists – you all cannot be right and if there was one creator, would not the creator have every person on earth of the same religious persuasion.

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

9). If the world was created, how come we are still evolving.

10). How come there were no dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark

Once I have the answers, I may able to make the rationale decision to believe in your christian god, or should that be the muslim god, or should that be the hindu god, or should that be buddist god. I wonder which is god, if any at all.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-21-2005, 08:51 AM
Thank you for your enlightenment and I respect your vastly superior knowledge. With your great knowledge perhaps you could answer the following questions for me.

1). Where is heaven – we have sent space vehicles for billions of miles into space and no sign of heaven.

2). Where is hell, we know is not down below; as that just leads to the earth’s core.

3). How come not one soul has been found in any human autopsy.

4). If there is a heaven, do people continue to grow old or are they stuck in the time they died. If they continue to grow old, how will I recognize them? Is a baby who died 10 years ago now 10 years old?

5). If someone said that god had appeared to them, no one would believe and they would be labeled as being insane.

6). The bible was written when everyone thought the earth was flat. We know how wrong that theory was. How come the bible is now taken as fact?

7). Who has the right creator; christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists – you all cannot be right and if there was one creator, would not the creator have every person on earth of the same religious persuasion.

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

9). If the world was created, how come we are still evolving.

10). How come there were no dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark

Once I have the answers, I may able to make the rationale decision to believe in your christian god, or should that be the muslim god, or should that be the hindu god, or should that be buddist god. I wonder which is god, if any at all.

I truly agree with #8...

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

...just look at the wars (Holy Wars, etc..), the mass suicides (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...), the mass murders (Holocaust, etc...), serial killings (Son of Sam, Zodiac, etc...), family murders (John List, etc..)! They all had religious beliefs that drove them.....were they wrong, because they didn't believe the same as you?!

Religion is a very powerful weapon, IMO, if used incorrectly! Then again, whats the correct way to use it?! All these cults and odd beliefs...it all seems creepy, at times! Also, if God is so wise, why doesn't he/she or it just appear and save us?! I know, I know....you guys will say, "WAIT, HE'S COMING BACK!"...

Well, it's a little late for those millions who died in the Holocaust, etc..!

Again, IMO!

Something else....I don't walk around telling people if they don't believe the same as I, they'll burn the blue flame! That's absolutely wrong....I mean really...WHO IN THE HE** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

toonman
10-21-2005, 09:03 AM
I truly agree with #8...

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

...just look at the wars (Holy Wars, etc..), the mass suicides (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...), the mass murders (Holocaust, etc...), serial killings (Son of Sam, Zodiac, etc...), family murders (John List, etc..)! They all had religious beliefs that drove them.....are they wrong, because they don't believe the same as you?!

Religion is a very powerful weapon, IMO, if used incorrectly! Then again, whats the correct way to use it?! All these cults and odd beliefs...it all seems creepy, at times! Also, if God is so wise, why doesn't he/she or it just appear and save us?! I know, I know....you guys will say, "WAIT, HE'S COMING BACK!"...

Well, it's a little late for those millions who died in the Holocaust, etc..!

Again, IMO!

Something else....I don't walk around telling people if they don't believe the same as I, they'll burn the blue flame! That's absolutely wrong....I mean really...WHO IN THE HE** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

I must agree. From what I have read in this thread, the believers in god are persons who are name calling, telling others they are stupid, using abusive language etc. Should not the so-called Christians be more compassionate, tolerate of a fellow human being, rather than wishing death or some other terrible event. I believe it this kind of religious fanaticism that we Americans are quick to condemn in the Middle East. Just because a person does not share your religious view, this is not an excuse to not treat that person with the compassion and understanding, that your church is teaching you.

Sloth
10-21-2005, 09:15 AM
Greatone the sad thing is your right. I consider myself a strong Christian but yes people using their religion to excuse their behavior is very sad to me. The Bible says that on the judgement day their will be a lot of people who think they are christians who will be very surprised. As a matter of fact I am sorry to say the majority of people who attend church and call themselves christian will find themselves in hell. (this includes some of the people who have posted on this link. As a matter of fact these so called Christians have done more to damage Gods message to the world than any athiest could ever dream of. The problem is they try to confuse the world's standards with that of true Christianity and the two do not mix. It is like oil and water they do not
I would love to get into a discussion on whether or not God exists and why I believe He does reveal himself to us everyday and why bad things do happen in this world but this forum is not the place and I hate typing. Who knows maybe someday we can hook up and have a good discussion. I would enjoy that.

LoneStarProud
10-21-2005, 09:22 AM
It's been going on since the begining of time and it will not get settled here. No doubt this subject stirs folks to the very core of their being. I would ask all of you who so passionately share your belief, be it "pro" or "con", that you avoid personal attacks if someone doesn't share your thoughts. Your all entitled to your beliefs. Free will is a good thing. As we all go through our own journey here on this earth I hope that your circumstances and experiences lead you closer to the truth. I think we all would agree that there has to be "a" truth in all this.

ktchamp97
10-21-2005, 09:32 AM
It's been going on since the begining of time and it will not get settled here. No doubt this subject stirs folks to the very core of their being. I would ask all of you who so passionately share your belief, be it "pro" or "con", that you avoid personal attacks if someone doesn't share your thoughts. Your all entitled to your beliefs.

I couldn't possibly have said it better. On that note...

Continue the discussion, but if I see people continuing to condemn others for their beliefs, I'll have to shut this one down. Most of y'all have done fine...those who haven't know who they are...

bleedgreen
10-21-2005, 02:04 PM
we are not meant to know all of the answers...if we did know all of the answers, then we would be God, right?? it's really simple guys----Faith...that just about sums it up....without faith or hope in this cruel world, what do we have....i just hope that you guys have "chosen" wisely, for your sakes.........sad thing is, i'm probably surrounded by your kind of people everyday and just don't know it---makes me nausiated just thinking about it!....i'm through with this topic..have to be before i get banned...been on here too long to lose the priviledge over a few athiests....no thank you.................

RyanRaiderDad
10-21-2005, 02:39 PM
Political Corectness will be the death of this country.

I'm more angry at how 1 or 2 guys can run this country just by causing a fuss.

It is truly frustrating how tolerance is being forced down our throats on a daily basis.... Tolerance, that is, for everything but Christianity. As I have screamed at many a HS football games.. "CALL IT BOTH WAYS"!!! I agree with tolerance, but let's have it all around. Anyone who has done any study in American History can plainly see that our Founding Fathers did not intend the wording in the Constitution to be interpreted the way that it has been in these particular cases... I'm glad that coach stuck to his guns!!!

ThEgReAtOnE
10-21-2005, 02:39 PM
we are not meant to know all of the answers...if we did know all of the answers, then we would be God, right?? it's really simple guys----Faith...that just about sums it up....without faith or hope in this cruel world, what do we have....i just hope that you guys have "chosen" wisely, for your sakes.........sad thing is, i'm probably surrounded by your kind of people everyday and just don't know it---makes me nausiated just thinking about it!....i'm through with this topic..have to be before i get banned...been on here too long to lose the priviledge over a few athiests....no thank you.................

I'm glad you're through with this topic....now you and your faith can go on your marry way! BTW, to know there are so many, in this world, that will fight, kill and die for their belief of/in Religion, is truly disturbing!

Look at the Middle East....are they wrong for dying and killing for their faith? If you believe they are....who are you to judge their beliefs? What gives you the right?....Your faith?

There will never be a right or wrong....only those who believe what they want to believe!

(Just think of all the death and misery faith and belief have caused, in the name of, whosever, God! And that God is so great and wise and powerful, that he/she or it knew this would happen....and yet, in all of his/her or its power and LOVE, did nothing to stop it!)

bleedgreen
10-21-2005, 07:37 PM
I'm glad you're through with this topic....now you and your faith can go on your marry way! BTW, to know there are so many, in this world, that will fight, kill and die for their belief of/in Religion, is truly disturbing!

Look at the Middle East....are they wrong for dying and killing for their faith? If you believe they are....who are you to judge their beliefs? What gives you the right?....Your faith?

There will never be a right or wrong....only those who believe what they want to believe!

(Just think of all the death and misery faith and belief have caused, in the name of, whosever, God! And that God is so great and wise and powerful, that he/she or it knew this would happen....and yet, in all of his/her or its power and LOVE, did nothing to stop it!)nope--your dead wrong...i'm not going anywhere...but, if i decide to, you can believe that i will take my faith with me on my "marry"(which you misspelled, dummy!--try "merry")way....tell you what you can do, mr. spelling bee champion, you, your athiest friends, and your athiest beliefs can go and jump off a reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaallllllyyyyyyy high cliff......don't worry---you'll be experiencing that one day, anyway.........you can double-talk all that you want to get your sick and twisted views across...only a few feeble-minded people will listen---i won't..................

LoneStarProud
10-23-2005, 02:03 AM
Just curious. This is directed to "thegreatone". I don't know you from Adam (no pun intended), but obviously something or someone has caused you to believe so stedfast that christians, religions, faith, the bible are all a bunch of hogwash. I don't disagree that there have been way too many that do not represent their faith very well. Unfortunately that will never change. I would however like to respectfully challenge you to continue to ponder the questions that you have asked others on this board. I ask this with no disrespect for your beliefs at all. You are and always will be entitled to your own opinion just as I am. Since you don't know me I realize I don't have any credibility with you and that's o.k, but I'm going to ask you a favor anyway.
Ask God if He is real. Ask if He exists. Give it some time. If He doesn't reveale Himself to you, what have you got to lose....Okay stop rolling your eyes and
just try it. At least you can say you entertained the validity of it all (if you haven't already done so).

lonny23
10-23-2005, 03:05 AM
Here's some interesting statements and quotes from our "founding fathers"...
Here's the Link (http://www.christianparents.com/lrconst.htm)

The First Amendment was clearly understood and explained by the man who wrote it and the man who first applied it as law. Fisher Ames wrote the First Amendment. He also wrote that the Bible should always remain the principle text book in America's classrooms. "

The Constitution of the United States of America was penned by the man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. That man, Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, was also the most active member of the Constitutional Convention. He spoke 173 times. He also advocated that "education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Hmmm.... so if the other 3% were "deist" as you say, that doesn't make a majority. In today's society, that 3% gets its way because (as stated earlier) that 3% is more organized and barks louder than the 97% percent group. So if 3% are offended by the actions of the 97%, the government no longer allows the 97% to practice their religion??? So much for "majority rules..."

I am VERY offended when people smoke around me... why doesn't the government say smokers can only smoke in the privacy of their own homes??? It offends me and makes me uncomfortable (not to mention the health hazards of 2nd hand smoke) yet the government will ban prayer before a football game because non-believers feel "pressured" to pray???

Political correctness at its finest... :mad:
Boy, you're right on that one. Carman has a song that says 52 of the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence were active members in their church. The song is, "We Need God In America Again."

lonny23
10-23-2005, 03:09 AM
boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! thegreatone and dragonfootballfan---both of you need to be taken out back to the woodshed and have the crap kicked out of you from sunrise to sunset!! i just hope you two athiests are right on your beliefs or it's going to get really, really, really HOT when it's all said and done!!(and i believe in the latter!) my goodness, i can't believe what i'm hearing??? just like LPanther stated: who do you think created this world, and the universe, stars, planets, the sun, the moon??? what, evolution?? some turtles crawled up from the ocean to start life?? who the hell created the oceans and mountains geniuses??? aliens from another planet?? you guys are so cracked up that it's pathetic!! wouldn't be a bit surprised if some misfortune came your way pretty soon, or a lightning bolt--which ever comes first, just remember your statements on this board....i will say one thing to you both---don't ever attend a Lobo game...our players run to the endzone before EVERY game, take off their helmets, drop to their knees, and give thanks to the Almighty...as well as, taking off helmets, dropping to their knees, and praying for the injured during the game---that's class, brother!! if you were to even make a sound during those times, your heads would be rolling into the parking lot...your posts disgust me to the fullest!!!!!..........LPanther---one classy post, my friend...we all have our differences over things from time to time on this site, but i'm definitely with you on this!!!
Hey, Bleed I'm all for you. Can you do me a favor and not come on so strong? What you believe is right, but it's not going to make them change their mind if you talk like that.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 03:12 AM
toonman...you should be called toolman!! your quick to start naming off the disasters of late, BUT(and this is a stretch)if you read the Bible, you would know that we are in the "end of times" at this very moment.....9/11, wars, earthquakes, the never-ending hurricanes, diseases(AIDS--no cure..coincedence??--i think not)......ever heard of the book of Revelation?? how about the anti-Christ?? this was all foretold in Revelation..thing is, people didn't heed the warnings..now, that this is all happening, everyone is blaming God---how stupid can you really be?? how about Sodom and Gamorrah?? you are living in the present day Sodom and Gamorrah whether you accept it or not...did you think that Jesus would stand by and let us get away with everything that we want to?? you may think that you are getting away with things, and that everything is fine in that "happy go lucky" life of yours, but it will all come around and slap you dead in your mouth 10 fold...everything hidden will come into the light, you can bet on that..i'm living proof of it and my mind will NEVER be influenced any different or change... Satan is the ruler of this messed up planet of ours...why do you question God about these disasters?? why not question satan who has come on this earth to lie, kill, and destroy what God has created......it's obviously already working with you 4 guys on here who have spouted off your athiests beliefs...that's what satan is good at--telling lies to the weak-minded who will believe him...i guess it's 4 down and alot to go for your kind....hope you see the "Light" before it's too late....but, you probably won't...............
Bleed, you have to tell people the truth and talk to them in love. God never gives up on us coming back to him or for the first time. Don't forget how much he loved the prodigal son.

Too many people want to eliminate God from their lives, but blame him for everything they don't like. He is a merciful and just God and most people can't understand his dual nature.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 03:16 AM
You're, unfortunately, the reason religion is more dangerous, IMO, than good. Because of your personal belief, you stand on pedestal and condem me and others for not believing the same as you.

If there is a God, he/she or it would of been smart enough to see this coming....and if he/she or it cared they would of made an appearance, by now.

(Uh...a real appearance! I believe it was the Son of Sam who said God was a dog, and it told him to kill. Was he wrong for his belief?)
God is in this thread and I pray that you read the words I've said. I'm not emotional about this and want to show you the love you need. I obviously disagree with your views, but I'm not going to harshly condemn you for your views. I only pray that your hardened heart be healed so that you can come BACK to God. I truly believe that you had a relationship with God in the past, but something happened to harden your heart.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 03:44 AM
I was answering the 10 questions and it reverted back to my previous post. I'll answer again.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:29 AM
1). Where is heaven – we have sent space vehicles for billions of miles into space and no sign of heaven. It's above us. We are physical beings and can't comprehend spiritual matters in this body. God created layers when he made earth and we can't reach heaven without being dead. The people at the Tower of Babel were in rebellion and tried to reach God on their own. He confused their language and scattred them across the earth.

2). Where is hell, we know is not down below; as that just leads to the earth’s core. Hell is in the center of the earth. People that have died and come back to life said they went down to the center of the earth. You have to be dead to reach hell. The core of the earth is very hot and plenty big enough for the different legs of hell. Hell is a place of torment for those who don't accept Jesus as their savior. God does not want anybody to go to hell and he sent his son, Jesus, to die as a sacrifice for us to avoid hell, but he's just and will send us to hell because of our sins if they are left unforgiven.

3). How come not one soul has been found in any human autopsy. A soul is spiritual matter. We can't see the wind, but it does exist. God wants us to have faith and we can't see everything. If we could see everything, we wouldn't need faith. You have faith every day when you start your car and that your keys to the office and house still work. You have faith that the moon will come up, just like the sun.

4). If there is a heaven, do people continue to grow old or are they stuck in the time they died. If they continue to grow old, how will I recognize them? Is a baby who died 10 years ago now 10 years old? Age is not an issue in heaven or hell. We live for eternity, but I don't know what our spiritual bodies look like. We don't have the same bodies in heaven as we do on earth. Our flesh on this earth does not accompany us to eternity.

5). If someone said that god had appeared to them, no one would believe and they would be labeled as being insane. God has appeared in person on several occasions. He has not done it very often and His face shines so bright that we can't look because of the brightness of his glory. Moses only saw God's backside. God speaks to some people in an audible voice like Paul on the Damascus Road. Most of the time, he uses the Holy Spirit to speak to us in a still small voice. That's how I hear from God besides the Bible and from others.

6). The bible was written when everyone thought the earth was flat. We know how wrong that theory was. How come the bible is now taken as fact? The Bible gave clues that the earth was round. I wish I could remember where they are, but that's what drove the astronomers to sail the earth. The clues were there all along. It's just like the Bible says that the earh was divided in the days of Peleg. That means the Bible acknowledges that the continents drifted apart from one another. Science and the Bible really work with one another and more people are finding that out. They are not opposed to one another.

7). Who has the right creator; christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists – you all cannot be right and if there was one creator, would not the creator have every person on earth of the same religious persuasion. It's the God of the Bible. All the other religions are distractors to take one's focus away from the true God. For everything God does, Satan is there to create a counterfeit copy to deceive us. He even goes as far as the antichrist and false prophet to mimic God and Jesus. This world is a battle of opposing spiritual sides. Once you can see the struggle, you'll understand the reasoin behind what is said and done. Satan does not want us to worship God. He wants us to worship false gods and that can be Buddha, Confuscius, being an athiest, or setting ourselves up as our own God. We do that a lot and don't even realize it.

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means. That's because Satan comes against God's word to corrupt it. Religion has been used for a lot of bad purposes for power and money. That does not take away from the true Word that God has given us to live by. I'm a Christian, but Satan comes against me to trip me up and to fall. He doesn't want me to live my life for God and more importantly try to reach others. He brings distractions. Life is a spiritual battle and I have to fight Satan every day. Christians aren't perfect. We sin and fall short of the glory of God. Please forgive us. Some people are fake and don't have a true relationship with God and please don't let that be your viewpoint of Christianity and religion. God created us with a free will which means we can sin against Him even though that's not what He desires. We are sinful and rebellious by nature and that's why the Bible says we have to die to our fleshly nature daily.

9). If the world was created, how come we are still evolving. God created within our genetics the ability to adapt to different climates and environments. We have different DNA and that makes for different body types. Our body types are suited for certain climates. What hasn't happened is we never went from being a frog to a cow to a human, etc. We were created to live as man and woman and populate the earth (with more Lonny's)! :D

10). How come there were no dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark. Dinosaurs weren't around 6,000 years ago when God created Adam. The Bible only covers the last 6,000 years of creation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Adam was the first person EVER created. The Bible does not talk about the dinosaurs, but that's not a Biblical statement that they didn't exist in the past. Satan was an angel and was kicked out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels before Adam was ever created. Satan was the father of the earth when Adam was created. It's very well possible he destroyed the earth with other humans and the dinosaurs in his anger. Satan hates creation and man. He tried to stop God redemptive plan of sending Jesus to die for our sins on numerous occasions. He comes to steal, kill, and destroy. All we know is that God created the heaven and earth and it then tells us the earth was without form and void. That could be because Satan destroyed it and God created it again with Adam 6,000 years ago. Jesus had to come to earth because Adam sinned. He had to be born of a virgin because sin is passed from the father to the son. He had to be born without sin to die on a cross as an unblemished sacrifce, just like the high priest always offered up once a year in the tabernacle and temple in the Old Testament. Science and the Bible work together. You can believe both.

Once I have the answers, I may able to make the rationale decision to believe in your christian god, or should that be the muslim god, or should that be the hindu god, or should that be buddist god. I wonder which is god, if any at all.

If you have any more questions, please ask.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:40 AM
I truly agree with #8...

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

...just look at the wars (Holy Wars, etc..), the mass suicides (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...), the mass murders (Holocaust, etc...), serial killings (Son of Sam, Zodiac, etc...), family murders (John List, etc..)! They all had religious beliefs that drove them.....were they wrong, because they didn't believe the same as you?!

Religion is a very powerful weapon, IMO, if used incorrectly! Then again, whats the correct way to use it?! All these cults and odd beliefs...it all seems creepy, at times! Also, if God is so wise, why doesn't he/she or it just appear and save us?! I know, I know....you guys will say, "WAIT, HE'S COMING BACK!"...

Well, it's a little late for those millions who died in the Holocaust, etc..!

Again, IMO!

Something else....I don't walk around telling people if they don't believe the same as I, they'll burn the blue flame! That's absolutely wrong....I mean really...WHO IN THE HE** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
It's a shame many people have died that way. Believe me, those actions were not done according to the Bible. Man can deceive us and that's why we must keep our focus on God. He has to guide and lead us. God has a plan for the earth that he set in motion from the outset of the world.

We don't understand his timing, but He has everything under control. Many things have been prophesied and they must come to pass before Jesus returns. I know it sometimes look like God must not exist because of tragedies, but he's always there. If we develop a relationship with Him, He will do likewise and fellowship with us.

I wish everybody could feel the peace that I have in knowing I have a heavenly Father. You don't have to be rich or famous to be happy. If you look at famous people, they have miserable lives because they try to buy peace and happiness and can't do it. You can only get that peace with a loving relationship with our heavenly Father.

No amount of money or success will bring peace and we see the fruits of that daily. That's why you can sometimes see poor people that are happy and don't have anything we consider to be valuable on earth. They rely on the Lord and He comforts them. They have treasures laid up in heaven and know what their future holds for them. I don't worry about the future, because I know the Lord has a plan and purpose for me on earth and I pray to accomplish His will. I'll die when He can't use me on earth anymore. Many times we do like the Children of Israel in the Bible and call on the Lord when we have problems and forget Him in the good times. He wants to be our savior 365 or 366 days a year.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:43 AM
I must agree. From what I have read in this thread, the believers in god are persons who are name calling, telling others they are stupid, using abusive language etc. Should not the so-called Christians be more compassionate, tolerate of a fellow human being, rather than wishing death or some other terrible event. I believe it this kind of religious fanaticism that we Americans are quick to condemn in the Middle East. Just because a person does not share your religious view, this is not an excuse to not treat that person with the compassion and understanding, that your church is teaching you.
You're 100% right in your assessment. Compassion and wisdom come in time if you'll let the Lord lead you in that manner.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:47 AM
Greatone the sad thing is your right. I consider myself a strong Christian but yes people using their religion to excuse their behavior is very sad to me. The Bible says that on the judgement day their will be a lot of people who think they are christians who will be very surprised. As a matter of fact I am sorry to say the majority of people who attend church and call themselves christian will find themselves in hell. (this includes some of the people who have posted on this link. As a matter of fact these so called Christians have done more to damage Gods message to the world than any athiest could ever dream of. The problem is they try to confuse the world's standards with that of true Christianity and the two do not mix. It is like oil and water they do not
I would love to get into a discussion on whether or not God exists and why I believe He does reveal himself to us everyday and why bad things do happen in this world but this forum is not the place and I hate typing. Who knows maybe someday we can hook up and have a good discussion. I would enjoy that.
Sloth, please feel free to share. I thought this thread might get locked a long time ago, but that's not the case. We have a good opportunity to be a good witness and I'm trying every chance I get.

Your assessment of churchgoers is correct. I'm not one to throw stones, because I also sin, but my words have been directed at those who don't believe in God and those who need a closer walk with the Lord. I'm not perfect in that area and I also fall short.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:49 AM
I couldn't possibly have said it better. On that note...

Continue the discussion, but if I see people continuing to condemn others for their beliefs, I'll have to shut this one down. Most of y'all have done fine...those who haven't know who they are...
I really appreciate the fact that you haven't shut it down so far. Thanks.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 04:59 AM
we are not meant to know all of the answers...if we did know all of the answers, then we would be God, right?? it's really simple guys----Faith...that just about sums it up....without faith or hope in this cruel world, what do we have....i just hope that you guys have "chosen" wisely, for your sakes.........sad thing is, i'm probably surrounded by your kind of people everyday and just don't know it---makes me nausiated just thinking about it!....i'm through with this topic..have to be before i get banned...been on here too long to lose the priviledge over a few athiests....no thank you.................
Bleed, those around you who do not share your belief in God are potential people to share your faith with when the Lord leads you and the opportunity presents itself. Remember, Jesus hung out with the tax collectors and prostitutes. They needed love and forgiveness of their sins and He provided it. Let your light shine. If you believe salvation is the greatest gift God could ever give to you, you'll want to share it with others and spread the "Good News". God places people in our paths to be a witness to and we have to be attuned to what the Holy Spirit says to us. Sometimes He tells me to share the gospel with somebody else. I'm ashamed that I've grieved the Holy Spirit and missed some opportunities.

The hardened religious establishment couldn't understand Jesus because they were so harsh and prideful. It's a shame that many churches look on the outside and shun people for not having the right look. Not all churches are like that and I had a friend in San Antonio that was the drummer in a Christian band and looked nothing like a stereotypical Christian.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 05:04 AM
It is truly frustrating how tolerance is being forced down our throats on a daily basis.... Tolerance, that is, for everything but Christianity. As I have screamed at many a HS football games.. "CALL IT BOTH WAYS"!!! I agree with tolerance, but let's have it all around. Anyone who has done any study in American History can plainly see that our Founding Fathers did not intend the wording in the Constitution to be interpreted the way that it has been in these particular cases... I'm glad that coach stuck to his guns!!!
The founding fathers didn't want a country free of religion. They wanted a country without the establishment of a national religion. There's a big difference there.

There's also a fine line between obeying the laws of the land and sharing our Christian beliefs. We are subject to God's laws and man's laws and sometimes we're out of line with what we do in the name of religion.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 05:07 AM
I'm glad you're through with this topic....now you and your faith can go on your marry way! BTW, to know there are so many, in this world, that will fight, kill and die for their belief of/in Religion, is truly disturbing!

Look at the Middle East....are they wrong for dying and killing for their faith? If you believe they are....who are you to judge their beliefs? What gives you the right?....Your faith?

There will never be a right or wrong....only those who believe what they want to believe!

(Just think of all the death and misery faith and belief have caused, in the name of, whosever, God! And that God is so great and wise and powerful, that he/she or it knew this would happen....and yet, in all of his/her or its power and LOVE, did nothing to stop it!)
The true measure of love is obeying without being forced to obey. Bad things happen as a consequence for sins, but they also happen to further God's plan for earth. I'm nobody to question why God does things like He does.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 05:09 AM
nope--your dead wrong...i'm not going anywhere...but, if i decide to, you can believe that i will take my faith with me on my "marry"(which you misspelled, dummy!--try "merry")way....tell you what you can do, mr. spelling bee champion, you, your athiest friends, and your athiest beliefs can go and jump off a reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaallllllyyyyyyy high cliff......don't worry---you'll be experiencing that one day, anyway.........you can double-talk all that you want to get your sick and twisted views across...only a few feeble-minded people will listen---i won't..................
I wish you would listen to me. I'm trying to help you out. This might be the best thread we've ever had on this forum and you're trying your best to ruin it.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 05:22 AM
Just curious. This is directed to "thegreatone". I don't know you from Adam (no pun intended), but obviously something or someone has caused you to believe so stedfast that christians, religions, faith, the bible are all a bunch of hogwash. I don't disagree that there have been way too many that do not represent their faith very well. Unfortunately that will never change. I would however like to respectfully challenge you to continue to ponder the questions that you have asked others on this board. I ask this with no disrespect for your beliefs at all. You are and always will be entitled to your own opinion just as I am. Since you don't know me I realize I don't have any credibility with you and that's o.k, but I'm going to ask you a favor anyway.
Ask God if He is real. Ask if He exists. Give it some time. If He doesn't reveale Himself to you, what have you got to lose....Okay stop rolling your eyes and
just try it. At least you can say you entertained the validity of it all (if you haven't already done so).
God has revealed Himself to ThEgReAtOnE. Something happened in the past that turned him against God. Because of what happened, it's easier to rationalize that God doesn't exist than it is to understand God's methods, which we don't always understand. He has not always been a worshipper of the environment or set himself up as his own god.

I worked with a guy who had 666 tattooed on his ear. He started living a life in rebellion to God because he got mad at God. He went to church all the time growing up and had a good Christian friend that died. It didn't seem fair to him and instead of asking for understanding of the situation and accepting God's will, he let Satan tempt him and make him bitter. His rationale was that God must not exist because the God he was taught about was loving and would never do that. We have people on this board that believe the same lie.

Satan has tried that trick continuously throughout time. He doesn't have new tricks and keeps using the same old tricks to take our focus and love away from God. He does whatever he needs to do to take away the loving relationship and fellowship.

We are flesh and blood and God is a spiritual being. His ways are not our ways and his knowledge far exceeds our human capabilities. He cares for us and knows the # of hairs on our head (mine is a little easier than some! :D ). He will give us wisdom and understanding if we ask, but not all things are for us to know. That's where faith comes back in.

implacable44
10-23-2005, 09:17 AM
what a pointless conversation. - discussing religion and the validity or falsehood of it. Religion or lack thereof, is personal and albeit difficult to explain or express because of it's very personal nature. You dont have a picture of you and the Lord to show someone, there is no written correspondence - rather it is all feelings and thoughts - there are of course visual realizations (babies, nature) and miracles on a daily basis. Man has believed in a higher power since the beginning of time. God is real if you believe it or not. The great one and toonman and others propose preposterous questions that cannot be answered and comment on the fact that we are still evolving ? - Where how are we evolving ? physically I mean - How is man still evolving and why are there still apes and monkeys ? were they too stupid to evolve? when will they evolve ? How come if I put wood, nails, glue, bricks, wires, cement, water etc all one a spot of vacant land I cant return and find a house ? THose types of questions you ask can be directed both ways. IF you choose to believe there is a God then that is your foundation and your belief system and if you don't well then that becomes your foundation.

True there are more wars and deaths in the name of God than any other reason in history - or so those who are doing the killing proclaim. war is a necessary evil because of the nature of man - it has nothing to do with God - it is the greed, jealousy, envy, spite, disdain and ethnocentricity of men who hide those ill feelings by proclaiming the war is for God. DOn't be confused.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 09:24 AM
what a pointless conversation. - discussing religion and the validity or falsehood of it. Religion or lack thereof, is personal and albeit difficult to explain or express because of it's very personal nature. You dont have a picture of you and the Lord to show someone, there is no written correspondence - rather it is all feelings and thoughts - there are of course visual realizations (babies, nature) and miracles on a daily basis. Man has believed in a higher power since the beginning of time. God is real if you believe it or not. The great one and toonman and others propose preposterous questions that cannot be answered and comment on the fact that we are still evolving ? - Where how are we evolving ? physically I mean - How is man still evolving and why are there still apes and monkeys ? were they too stupid to evolve? when will they evolve ? How come if I put wood, nails, glue, bricks, wires, cement, water etc all one a spot of vacant land I cant return and find a house ? THose types of questions you ask can be directed both ways. IF you choose to believe there is a God then that is your foundation and your belief system and if you don't well then that becomes your foundation.

True there are more wars and deaths in the name of God than any other reason in history - or so those who are doing the killing proclaim. war is a necessary evil because of the nature of man - it has nothing to do with God - it is the greed, jealousy, envy, spite, disdain and ethnocentricity of men who hide those ill feelings by proclaiming the war is for God. DOn't be confused.
We do stuff to ourselves. God doesn't tempt us and we act out of our sinful nature.

implacable44
10-23-2005, 09:26 AM
that is what i said lonny - maybe it was a little too complicated for you to get that -- hence the evil nature of man comments - etc.. i didnt blame anything on God

lonny23
10-23-2005, 09:28 AM
that is what i said lonny - maybe it was a little too complicated for you to get that -- hence the evil nature of man comments - etc.. i didnt blame anything on God
If you read what I've said in this thread, you'll know it's not too complicated for me! :D

Drake
10-23-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure WHY the coach is being admired here. From the article posted, he abandoned his team 3 hours before kick-off when there were other alternatives that would have been better.

Why not allow a team member to lead the prayer (instead of the coach) and ask anyone that might be offended to either ignore it or leave the room?

It seems the coach put himself and his fight before the team. While its a noble cause, surely he didn't believe his resignation would change school policy or settled interpretation of the Constitution in the 3 HOURS until game time?

I believe he'll get what he wants out of this, a lot of notoriety and probably some TV time over the next week or so... I'm not sure how that or not having him for the games helps the team though.

bleedgreen
10-23-2005, 01:46 PM
what a pointless conversation. - discussing religion and the validity or falsehood of it. Religion or lack thereof, is personal and albeit difficult to explain or express because of it's very personal nature. You dont have a picture of you and the Lord to show someone, there is no written correspondence - rather it is all feelings and thoughts - there are of course visual realizations (babies, nature) and miracles on a daily basis. Man has believed in a higher power since the beginning of time. God is real if you believe it or not. The great one and toonman and others propose preposterous questions that cannot be answered and comment on the fact that we are still evolving ? - Where how are we evolving ? physically I mean - How is man still evolving and why are there still apes and monkeys ? were they too stupid to evolve? when will they evolve ? How come if I put wood, nails, glue, bricks, wires, cement, water etc all one a spot of vacant land I cant return and find a house ? THose types of questions you ask can be directed both ways. IF you choose to believe there is a God then that is your foundation and your belief system and if you don't well then that becomes your foundation.

True there are more wars and deaths in the name of God than any other reason in history - or so those who are doing the killing proclaim. war is a necessary evil because of the nature of man - it has nothing to do with God - it is the greed, jealousy, envy, spite, disdain and ethnocentricity of men who hide those ill feelings by proclaiming the war is for God. DOn't be confused.
good point, implacable---i can appreciate that point of view.......Lonny----i apologize about my "anger" directed at those atheists in my earlier posts....wasn't the "right" way to approach that situation at all.....i can admit that i have somewhat of a quick temper..something that i have been trying to work on over the years--never said that i was perfect in any means....i am a sinner as well, but i KNOW who my Savior is and i repent for my wrong-doings throughout the day, everyday......i gave my life over on September 24, 2000....i'm still a little "new" at this and sometimes i can only react the way that i did earlier---i know i need practice in that area....i do respect and appreciate your views on Christianity...i'll look at you in a different light, now...........i apologize to everyone else, as well---even the atheists.......i believe i'll just stick to following my Lobos and talking strictly football from here on out..........

ThEgReAtOnE
10-23-2005, 04:09 PM
good point, implacable---i can appreciate that point of view.......Lonny----i apologize about my "anger" directed at those atheists in my earlier posts....wasn't the "right" way to approach that situation at all.....i can admit that i have somewhat of a quick temper..something that i have been trying to work on over the years--never said that i was perfect in any means....i am a sinner as well, but i KNOW who my Savior is and i repent for my wrong-doings throughout the day, everyday......i gave my life over on September 24, 2000....i'm still a little "new" at this and sometimes i can only react the way that i did earlier---i know i need practice in that area....i do respect and appreciate your views on Christianity...i'll look at you in a different light, now...........i apologize to everyone else, as well---even the atheists.......i believe i'll just stick to following my Lobos and talking strictly football from here on out..........

bleedgreen,
I could care less about you, your "God" and your religion...I don't know you, and I could care less to! [yawning] The whole "spelling bee champ" quote is a perfect reason why what you have to say is meaningless, PERIOD! I don't like to play these kinds of games! Fact is I believe religion is something man conceived in order to take the blame and responsibility of life off of their hands. It's about being so afraid of death, that you must create the notion of a higher being in order to sleep at night!

It's the most convenient excuse!! And it's, almost, sad!!

What would your opinion of your religion be if "God" said, "Here are the Ten Commandments....follow them, or you will burn in hell.......and NO, I won't send my only son to Earth to die for the sins I KNOW YOU'LL COMMITT!!!"...?

You could still believe in God.....but if you committ a sin....you burn!! There is no repent!! There is no, "Sorry God, didn't mean to cheat on her...again!!" [wink]

I bet you'd be a freakin' Buddhist, instead!!!

IT'S CONVENIENT TO BE A CHRISTIAN......because you have a religion that serves your purpose, not vice-versa!!

Sorry, it's just too easy, that way!!

implacable44
10-23-2005, 08:35 PM
bleedgreen,
I could care less about you, your "God" and your religion...I don't know you, and I could care less to! [yawning] The whole "spelling bee champ" quote is a perfect reason why what you have to say is meaningless, PERIOD! I don't like to play these kinds of games! Fact is I believe religion is something man conceived in order to take the blame and responsibility of life off of their hands. It's about being so afraid of death, that you must create the notion of a higher being in order to sleep at night!

It's the most convenient excuse!! And it's, almost, sad!!

What would your opinion of your religion be if "God" said, "Here are the Ten Commandments....follow them, or you will burn in hell.......and NO, I'm sending my only child to Earth to die for the sins I KNOW YOU'LL COMMITT!!!"...?

You could still believe in God.....but if you committ a sin....you burn!! There is no repent!! There is no, "Sorry God, didn't mean to cheat on her...again!!" [wink]

I bet you'd be a freakin' Buddhist, instead!!!

IT'S CONVENIENT TO BE A CHRISTIAN......because you have a religion that serves your purpose, not vice-versa!!

Sorry, it's just too easy, that way!!


see here is the problem bleed green - this man apologized and tried to move forward but you persist. Dude it is easier to be an atheist than anything - eat drink and be merry and ask stupid questions that nobody has the answer to. Think what you want about religion but once you publicize those thoughts and degrade the millions of faithful people in the world who believe in a God or a higher power - don't come on the message board whining about people putting you down for you belief in ....... nothing. Man up and take it. dont cry. The majority of the world believes in God and believe me it is not because it is easier -- it is much easier to be an atheist or agnostic than being faithful. One would supposed that atheists live guilt free ( which I believe to be impossible) because they dont commit sins because they dont believe in those things. Have you ever wondered why you feel bad when you lie, or steal or cheat etc? where does that feeling come from ? just a thought ...

Probably again -- pointless to discusss this issue. I have talked with many an atheist in my time and generally the conversation is intelligent and peaceful but here an apology was offered and you chose to continue - so i say again - don't be whining about the faithful who kill and attack the unfaithful while you do the same thing. you can't really hold them to a higher standard because if it is to be an even and level playing field with a fellow like you - then we have to stoop down to your morals and values.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 08:46 PM
bleedgreen,
I could care less about you, your "God" and your religion...I don't know you, and I could care less to! [yawning] The whole "spelling bee champ" quote is a perfect reason why what you have to say is meaningless, PERIOD! I don't like to play these kinds of games! Fact is I believe religion is something man conceived in order to take the blame and responsibility of life off of their hands. It's about being so afraid of death, that you must create the notion of a higher being in order to sleep at night!

It's the most convenient excuse!! And it's, almost, sad!!

What would your opinion of your religion be if "God" said, "Here are the Ten Commandments....follow them, or you will burn in hell.......and NO, I'm sending my only child to Earth to die for the sins I KNOW YOU'LL COMMITT!!!"...?

You could still believe in God.....but if you committ a sin....you burn!! There is no repent!! There is no, "Sorry God, didn't mean to cheat on her...again!!" [wink]

I bet you'd be a freakin' Buddhist, instead!!!

IT'S CONVENIENT TO BE A CHRISTIAN......because you have a religion that serves your purpose, not vice-versa!!

Sorry, it's just too easy, that way!!
It's a lot easier to not be a Christian. Not cussing, getting mad, and sinning in general is a lot harder to not do. If I didn't feel like I needed to avoid that stuff, I'd be fighting the guys over here, drinking cheap alcohol, and trying to jump the bones of our commercial airline ticketing woman.

lonny23
10-23-2005, 08:48 PM
good point, implacable---i can appreciate that point of view.......Lonny----i apologize about my "anger" directed at those atheists in my earlier posts....wasn't the "right" way to approach that situation at all.....i can admit that i have somewhat of a quick temper..something that i have been trying to work on over the years--never said that i was perfect in any means....i am a sinner as well, but i KNOW who my Savior is and i repent for my wrong-doings throughout the day, everyday......i gave my life over on September 24, 2000....i'm still a little "new" at this and sometimes i can only react the way that i did earlier---i know i need practice in that area....i do respect and appreciate your views on Christianity...i'll look at you in a different light, now...........i apologize to everyone else, as well---even the atheists.......i believe i'll just stick to following my Lobos and talking strictly football from here on out..........
Thanks Bleed. Don't be too hard on yourself.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-23-2005, 09:59 PM
see here is the problem bleed green - this man apologized and tried to move forward but you persist. Dude it is easier to be an atheist than anything - eat drink and be merry and ask stupid questions that nobody has the answer to. Think what you want about religion but once you publicize those thoughts and degrade the millions of faithful people in the world who believe in a God or a higher power - don't come on the message board whining about people putting you down for you belief in ....... nothing. Man up and take it. dont cry. The majority of the world believes in God and believe me it is not because it is easier -- it is much easier to be an atheist or agnostic than being faithful. One would supposed that atheists live guilt free ( which I believe to be impossible) because they dont commit sins because they dont believe in those things. Have you ever wondered why you feel bad when you lie, or steal or cheat etc? where does that feeling come from ? just a thought ...

Probably again -- pointless to discusss this issue. I have talked with many an atheist in my time and generally the conversation is intelligent and peaceful but here an apology was offered and you chose to continue - so i say again - don't be whining about the faithful who kill and attack the unfaithful while you do the same thing. you can't really hold them to a higher standard because if it is to be an even and level playing field with a fellow like you - then we have to stoop down to your morals and values.

First off...I don't feel bad when I lie or steal or cheat! I think many of us feel guilt of reason or guilt by consequence...what ever consequence, is up to you!

Second....I don't cry! Period! :cool:

Third.....you and your fellow attacked me! I explained my belief in non-believing and like most Christian's I've met you guys started with the threats of "you'll burn in the lake of fire"..."you have no morals"...etc! I don't take very well to threats, face to face, but when it comes to message boards I could honestly care less. I usually just yawn....like I'm doing now! [yawning] :p

Fourth....you guys bore me with your constant pursuit of destructive criticism. I respect lonny for his compassion and understanding, but you and your "little" friends seem like jerks....Christian or not! :D

Quite simply..I don't believe in you or your belief! You've shown me every reason to not join your fellow! You seem weak, young of mind.....and Christianity seems to be the best place for someone as scared as you. You can't except life is just LIFE. You can't except if there is true punishment for sins, everyone of us would be in that "lake of fire"...including you! You can't except there are people out there who aren't as weak as you, so you must try and destroy them mentally, or emotionally. You can't except that someday you, just like me and everyone, will die....and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE there is no Heaven, there is no Hell, there is no God....there is no afterlife!

It's, perhaps, your lack of exceptance that drives you to pray everynight...go to church, feel bad when you lie, cheat or steal! It's your lack of exceptance that allows you to condem others who question your religion!

Sorry....you just can't win this conversation! [yawning again] And you've done nothing to convince otherwise! ;)

Redneckn
10-24-2005, 11:44 AM
I love these conversations... They really kind of make me laff a little. Mainly because everybody seems to have an answer and the other will always have a comeback for it.
I used to ask a lot of those questions about God that nobody can really answer with any certainty. Then I had a fella (online) tell me this: "If I live my life as a Christian and I die and I was wrong, I've not really lost anything. If you live your life as you do and you die and you were wrong, you will have lost EVERYthing."
Since then, I've been kinda different about the whole situation. There are questions I've had since a child concerning God that I've demanded answers to. Once I finally figured out what faith is really all about, I've grown up enough to know that sometimes, the answers won't matter anyway. If I am unable to comprehend it, what does it matter if I know or not? It's like calculas. I dont understand it and never will. I would like to kind of know something about it I guess. But for now, I dont know anything about it. I dont even know if I've spelled it right. But I have complete faith that the answer is 2.
I dont pray to God to let the sun rise in the morning. I have faith that it will. Instead, I pray to God to let me wake in the morning to see the sun.

It's all a matter of faith.

And for those that like say that Christianity is for weak minded people and all that hoopla. I've been right there in your shoes. Quit b-sing yourself and face life. When you tell yourself and everyone else that you arent that weak and stupid, all that really is is you trying to convince yourself.

Ok. I'm done now. :D

implacable44
10-24-2005, 11:58 AM
First off...I don't feel bad when I lie or steal or cheat! I think many of us feel guilt of reason or guilt by consequence...what ever consequence, is up to you!

Second....I don't cry! Period! :cool:

Third.....you and your fellow attacked me! I explained my belief in non-believing and like most Christian's I've met you guys started with the threats of "you'll burn in the lake of fire"..."you have no morals"...etc! I don't take very well to threats, face to face, but when it comes to message boards I could honestly care less. I usually just yawn....like I'm doing now! [yawning] :p

Fourth....you guys bore me with your constant pursuit of destructive criticism. I respect lonny for his compassion and understanding, but you and your "little" friends seem like jerks....Christian or not! :D

Quite simply..I don't believe in you or your belief! You've shown me every reason to not join your fellow! You seem weak, young of mind.....and Christianity seems to be the best place for someone as scared as you. You can't except life is just LIFE. You can't except if there is true punishment for sins, everyone of us would be in that "lake of fire"...including you! You can't except there are people out there who aren't as weak as you, so you must try and destroy them mentally, or emotionally. You can't except that someday you, just like me and everyone, will die....and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE there is no Heaven, there is no Hell, there is no God....there is no afterlife!

It's, perhaps, your lack of exceptance that drives you to pray everynight...go to church, feel bad when you lie, cheat or steal! It's your lack of exceptance that allows you to condem others who question your religion!

Sorry....you just can't win this conversation! [yawning again] And you've done nothing to convince otherwise! ;)

skippy -

first of all, I was not included in any of this conversation and my only post or comment was how silly it was to have this debate. Which is why I didn't address any topics or subjects except that you refused to accept an apology and move on , for my part I did not threaten anyone - least of all you nor did I mention hell, fire and brimstone etc. Know who you are talking to before you vomit stupidity out of your pie hole.

As far as you joining this or that "fellow" I could care less. You are free to live your life the way you see fit within the confines of the law as am I. When we die, then we will find out what happens and one of us will have huge regrets. Who can say which is right ?
As far as me being "scared" or "weak" ( I will not address your theological comments because it is pointless to debate such knowledge with the clueless and ignorant.) I am neither scared nor weak and I do not intend to win any conversation as my post to you was directed at your inability ( which some could conisder weakness and immature) to accept an apology and move on with your life. A wise man once wrote that you project your personal fallacies onto others - so I must assume that you a weak minded scared little boy who has no purpose in life and wanders aimlessly - for all I know you still live at home with mummy in the converted garage and always will. But if you choose to direct comments at me in the future make sure they are factual and accurate and do not lump me in with others as a whole.

Not sure what you think you are gReAt at but I vote that it isn't for literacy, intellect or logic. If I was you, I would be more cognissant of a higher power because it is apparent that you do not want to rely on your own talents ( or lack of) to have a successful life.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-24-2005, 12:38 PM
This was not a helpful post!

implacable44
10-24-2005, 12:47 PM
you truly are as shallow and ignorant as the day is long. I am not attempting to win any conversation - especially with the iGnorAnt One because you have far more stupidity weapons at your disposal than i do. As I have stated previously - I don't care if you believe or not - what you believe in or how you believe - that is irrelevant to me. I was just amazed that you could be such a small, weak-minded and shallow person that somebody would apologize to you for letting your conversation with him get out of hand that you would reply with more insults. - That is truly weak and indicative of your lack of character. I regret ever having come in contact with a person of your dispicable nature - and again this has nothing to do with being Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, or Atheist - rather being a poor, weak, shallow and irrelevant person such as you see in the mirror everyday.

Butch Fifield
10-24-2005, 12:51 PM
"If I live my life as a Christian and I die and I was wrong, I've not really lost anything. If you live your life as you do and you die and you were wrong, you will have lost EVERYthing."

That is a horrible reason to "believe" in God. "In case" their is one? That is not faith. That is not believing.

Faith & belief come from the heart. You have to believe in your heart. It is not something you can fake "in case" he exists. You have to actually believe he exists.

As a non believer, something has to happen to me for me to believe in God. That something has not happened yet. There is no way that I am going to just start going to church one day "just in case". That would be so disingenious.

stevefoxsc
10-24-2005, 12:57 PM
sigh no one is going to force you to believe if you don't want, you don't believe good for you let me guess i dont believe in him cause ive never seen him, ive never seen air but i do believe it exsist. If your atheist good for you go on about your life you sit here an post about it but if you don't care don't post.

ktchamp97
10-24-2005, 12:57 PM
Guys and gals,
The personal attacks will stop now. If you must have a little internet battle another poster specifically, do it through PM's...there's no need to do so publicly.

I've let this thread continue because there is some good conversation going on and good points being made all around. Feel free to continue, but do it without belittling others for their beliefs...if you find that's too difficult, do it through private messages or don't respond at all.

Feel free to respond to individuals, but don't attack them...it's not that much to ask. It is possible to state opinions, disagree, and do so with respect.

What do you gain by being an internet tough guy anyway? Nobody will think you're "cool" or anything like that. Plus, all it does is clutter up our board with useless drivel that serves no purpose other than to piss people off and that's not why we have this message board.

Thank you.

Drake
10-24-2005, 12:59 PM
Butch, I don't think he was saying he pretends to be a Christian in case there is a God. I think he's more or less saying that by having faith in God and leading a Christian life he risks nothing because living a Christian life is very fulfilling anyway.

stevefoxsc
10-24-2005, 01:05 PM
can i nominate this for toppic of the year its breaking records! its coming close to beating my high school bands thread from last year

Butch Fifield
10-24-2005, 01:08 PM
Butch, I don't think he was saying he pretends to be a Christian in case there is a God. I think he's more or less saying that by having faith in God and leading a Christian life he risks nothing because living a Christian life is very fulfilling anyway.

I can buy that. But alot of people do think that the "just in case" is a good reason to believe in God.

I just don't think being a Christian is a choice. You either believe in your heart or you don't. I can not make a choice to be a Christian without first believing. Something has to cause me to believe. "Just in case" there is a God is not a reason to believe. "Wishing there is a Heaven" is not a reason to believe. Who wouldn't wish there was a Heaven? It is a great concept. Who wants to rot in the ground for the rest of eternity? I would love to believe in all that, but God has make me believe. So far, apparently he doesn't care if I believe or not.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 01:14 PM
I love these conversations... They really kind of make me laff a little. Mainly because everybody seems to have an answer and the other will always have a comeback for it.
I used to ask a lot of those questions about God that nobody can really answer with any certainty. Then I had a fella (online) tell me this: "If I live my life as a Christian and I die and I was wrong, I've not really lost anything. If you live your life as you do and you die and you were wrong, you will have lost EVERYthing."
Since then, I've been kinda different about the whole situation. There are questions I've had since a child concerning God that I've demanded answers to. Once I finally figured out what faith is really all about, I've grown up enough to know that sometimes, the answers won't matter anyway. If I am unable to comprehend it, what does it matter if I know or not? It's like calculas. I dont understand it and never will. I would like to kind of know something about it I guess. But for now, I dont know anything about it. I dont even know if I've spelled it right. But I have complete faith that the answer is 2.
I dont pray to God to let the sun rise in the morning. I have faith that it will. Instead, I pray to God to let me wake in the morning to see the sun.

It's all a matter of faith.

And for those that like say that Christianity is for weak minded people and all that hoopla. I've been right there in your shoes. Quit b-sing yourself and face life. When you tell yourself and everyone else that you arent that weak and stupid, all that really is is you trying to convince yourself.

Ok. I'm done now. :D
I use that analogy with the wasted life with people, too.

Drake
10-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Well, its a very touchy subject and I'm involved in too many touchy subjects on this board as it is... As goofy as this sounds perhaps its best to just say its a God given right for each individual to deal with spirituality as they best see fit and leave it at that...

lonny23
10-24-2005, 01:23 PM
That is a horrible reason to "believe" in God. "In case" their is one? That is not faith. That is not believing.

Faith & belief come from the heart. You have to believe in your heart. It is not something you can fake "in case" he exists. You have to actually believe he exists.

As a non believer, something has to happen to me for me to believe in God. That something has not happened yet. There is no way that I am going to just start going to church one day "just in case". That would be so disingenious.
That is a well-spoken post. Getting somebody to think about the fact they may be wrong about there not being a heaven or hell is a method to open the door to talk to them about Christianity, but the person has to want to make the lifestyle change because they believe that's the right thing to do.

I pray that the something for you to believe does happen.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 01:25 PM
I love these conversations... They really kind of make me laff a little. Mainly because everybody seems to have an answer and the other will always have a comeback for it.
I used to ask a lot of those questions about God that nobody can really answer with any certainty. Then I had a fella (online) tell me this: "If I live my life as a Christian and I die and I was wrong, I've not really lost anything. If you live your life as you do and you die and you were wrong, you will have lost EVERYthing."
Since then, I've been kinda different about the whole situation. There are questions I've had since a child concerning God that I've demanded answers to. Once I finally figured out what faith is really all about, I've grown up enough to know that sometimes, the answers won't matter anyway. If I am unable to comprehend it, what does it matter if I know or not? It's like calculas. I dont understand it and never will. I would like to kind of know something about it I guess. But for now, I dont know anything about it. I dont even know if I've spelled it right. But I have complete faith that the answer is 2.
I dont pray to God to let the sun rise in the morning. I have faith that it will. Instead, I pray to God to let me wake in the morning to see the sun.

It's all a matter of faith.

And for those that like say that Christianity is for weak minded people and all that hoopla. I've been right there in your shoes. Quit b-sing yourself and face life. When you tell yourself and everyone else that you arent that weak and stupid, all that really is is you trying to convince yourself.

Ok. I'm done now. :D
You're right, we have to have faith. That's why God doesn't give us all the answers. Even if he did give us all the answers, we wouldn't always know why they're the answers.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-24-2005, 02:31 PM
implacable44,
Clear out your your private messages...I've got a PM I'm sending you!
But it can't send it until you clear out the other messages!

implacable44
10-24-2005, 02:35 PM
sure

LPanther
10-24-2005, 02:52 PM
Guys and gals,
I've let this thread continue because there is some good conversation going on and good points being made all around. Feel free to continue, but do it without belittling others for their beliefs...if you find that's too difficult, do it through private messages or don't respond at all.

ktchamp97,
Frankly I expected that this thread might get shut down early in it's existence. Nothing seems to get people riled up as much as religion and politics. I expected that some strong opinions would be expressed on this topic, but I do agree that there is no place on this or any other thread for personal attacks. I appreciate the discussion being allowed to continue, especially since the original topic is relevant to HS football.

implacable44
10-24-2005, 02:57 PM
The great one and I took out conversation to PM long before a comment was posted by Katy97. somebody called somebody weak and then somebody else dropped itiot or stupid in response to scared - and etc and we both recognized the importance to remove that discussion from the board and carry it on through PMs.

ThEgReAtOnE
10-24-2005, 02:57 PM
ktchamp97,
Frankly I expected that this thread might get shut down early in it's existence. Nothing seems to get people riled up as much as religion and politics. I expected that some strong opinions would be expressed on this topic, but I do agree that there is no place on this or any other thread for personal attacks. I appreciate the discussion being allowed to continue, especially since the original topic is relevant to HS football.


I second that!

I would like to apologize to anyone and everyone I may have offended within this thread. (i.e...bleedgreen, implacable44, etc..) I hope my comments are not taken too deeply and we can move forward, within this forum, with an open discussion, that may help guide the lost, the analytical and the faithful.

Thanx,
OnE

Fleeman93
10-24-2005, 04:08 PM
Did Jesus and Mary Magdalen ever get busy?

bleedgreen
10-24-2005, 04:46 PM
are you serious??????? goodness gracious, i'm staying away from that one.....

Fleeman93
10-24-2005, 05:31 PM
I think that is a fair question. Is there any proof in the Bible that says yes or no?

Redneckn
10-24-2005, 08:13 PM
Did Jesus and Mary Magdalen ever get busy?


I think it's a fair question as well. That's what kicks butt about being human. Your mind can wonder and you can question things.

I've heard arguements from both sides that made really good sense. As for me, I guess I've wondered that was well. It really holds nothing for my own personal faith. It's the same as my old question of: Who were the inhabitants of Nod? We know from the Bible that there were entities of some form there because it states that Caine took a wife from Nod. I've not ever been able to get a good solid answer from anyone on that one. But I feel like there were the fallen angels and/or Gods first attempts of "human" like beings. I think the "gaints" mentioned in the Bible were the offspring of these beings.. I think their bloodlines probably continue to run today. And by that, I mean genetically. That helps to explain certain things.. Like why almost all really fat people have the same facial features..DownsSydrome has a same basic likeness that could be explained that way as well.

And before anybody says otherwise, I'm not picking on anyone. I have a niece with downs that is wonderful. And I'm kinda pudgey..

lonny23
10-24-2005, 08:30 PM
First off...I don't feel bad when I lie or steal or cheat! I think many of us feel guilt of reason or guilt by consequence...what ever consequence, is up to you!

Second....I don't cry! Period! :cool:

Third.....you and your fellow attacked me! I explained my belief in non-believing and like most Christian's I've met you guys started with the threats of "you'll burn in the lake of fire"..."you have no morals"...etc! I don't take very well to threats, face to face, but when it comes to message boards I could honestly care less. I usually just yawn....like I'm doing now! [yawning] :p

Fourth....you guys bore me with your constant pursuit of destructive criticism. I respect lonny for his compassion and understanding, but you and your "little" friends seem like jerks....Christian or not! :D

Quite simply..I don't believe in you or your belief! You've shown me every reason to not join your fellow! You seem weak, young of mind.....and Christianity seems to be the best place for someone as scared as you. You can't except life is just LIFE. You can't except if there is true punishment for sins, everyone of us would be in that "lake of fire"...including you! You can't except there are people out there who aren't as weak as you, so you must try and destroy them mentally, or emotionally. You can't except that someday you, just like me and everyone, will die....and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE there is no Heaven, there is no Hell, there is no God....there is no afterlife!

It's, perhaps, your lack of exceptance that drives you to pray everynight...go to church, feel bad when you lie, cheat or steal! It's your lack of exceptance that allows you to condem others who question your religion!

Sorry....you just can't win this conversation! [yawning again] And you've done nothing to convince otherwise! ;)
There's a reason some of us can't accept that there is no God. We've seen too much stuff to think otherwise. I like to ask questions and study stuff and can really seem cynical sometimes. I'm a numbers guy and look at probabilities and all kinds of stuff like that. It's not luck that I get a lot of prayers answered and I'm praying for specific stuff when I pray. If I'm running late and need a place to stay open, I'll get those prayers answered most of the time. If I really need it to stop raining, it happens most of the time. I don't advocate just praying for selfish desires because I'm not a believer in praying for lustful desires.

There's a certain place for praying for the desires of your heart, but God is not a sugar daddy. He wants us to pray for others, but He also wants us to be specific and tell Him our desires and needs. He knows what we want and need, but He still requires us to ask and have faith that we'll receive.

The Holy Spirit is my guide and comforter. I trust in Him and God makes my paths straight because of it. When I sin, I lose fellowship with God and see the immediate results. Many times it's been the difference between waking up on time and waking up late. Good health and household items that don't break are all blessings from God. Many times I've seen the Lord let something not go according to plan so that I have to pray and He makes the situation right. He is a just God and wants to be worshipped and deserves to be worshipped. He loves us and wants us to do the same.

We don't always have the answers why He does things a certain way, but we have to have faith that hHe is in control, knows what He is doing, and the kingdom of God will be helped because of it. Satan is the ruler of the earth until he's locked up in the lake of fire. He is responsible for the bad things in the world. God created us with a free will so that we might prove we love Him. Love is not making somebody worship you. He has to allow certain things to happen in this world to bring people back into right worship with Him, but He also has to allow things to happen as part of end-time events that we're moving towards.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 08:38 PM
you truly are as shallow and ignorant as the day is long. I am not attempting to win any conversation - especially with the iGnorAnt One because you have far more stupidity weapons at your disposal than i do. As I have stated previously - I don't care if you believe or not - what you believe in or how you believe - that is irrelevant to me. I was just amazed that you could be such a small, weak-minded and shallow person that somebody would apologize to you for letting your conversation with him get out of hand that you would reply with more insults. - That is truly weak and indicative of your lack of character. I regret ever having come in contact with a person of your dispicable nature - and again this has nothing to do with being Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, or Atheist - rather being a poor, weak, shallow and irrelevant person such as you see in the mirror everyday.
You have to love individuals before you can ever reach them for God. They have to see the light of love in You. They hate God and Jesus because they haven't come into fellowship with them YET. Keep praying that these individuals will come to know the Lord and realize what true peace and love is. Yes, it hurts God and Jesus to be blasphemed, but they keep loving us and giving us chances to love them. They ask that we do the same for the lost.

It's all a spiritual battle. God speaks through us, but Satan comes against them with doubt and unbelief. He wants them to get angry and throw out insults and be blasphemous. They serve Satan and you can't expect good works to come from it. Those who serve God are expected to show the fruits of it in their lives. You must show love towards the lost no matter how hard it seems to be. Jesus said, 'They will hate you because of Me, but they hated Me first."

lonny23
10-24-2005, 08:40 PM
can i nominate this for toppic of the year its breaking records! its coming close to beating my high school bands thread from last year
I'm going to vote it's the best thread we've ever had on here.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 08:54 PM
I can buy that. But alot of people do think that the "just in case" is a good reason to believe in God.

I just don't think being a Christian is a choice. You either believe in your heart or you don't. I can not make a choice to be a Christian without first believing. Something has to cause me to believe. "Just in case" there is a God is not a reason to believe. "Wishing there is a Heaven" is not a reason to believe. Who wouldn't wish there was a Heaven? It is a great concept. Who wants to rot in the ground for the rest of eternity? I would love to believe in all that, but God has make me believe. So far, apparently he doesn't care if I believe or not.
Butch, God is going to give you a reason to believe. You're right, you do have to believe. I still believe because God has made himself known to me. The hard part is you have to believe before God acts in your life like He has in mine. It all started with an act of faith a long time ago.

I prayed that God will make more attempts to make Himself known to you. You will have a spiritual battle in your mind. God talks, but Satan always tries to make you doubt, ask more questions, and be skeptical. At some point, you'll have to reach the point where you say, "This is what I believe. I can't see and understand everything, but I'm going to put my trust in God. I'm going to accept Jesus as my savior and confess my sins." At that time, God will come into fellowship with you and if you serve Him, He'll really make himself known to you and there's nothing in this world that will make you change your mind. It's like Monty Hall on "Let's Make a Deal." You have to pick curtain #3 before you see what's back there.

clemensbuff
10-24-2005, 09:05 PM
Butch, God is going to give you a reason to believe. You're right, you do have to believe. I still believe because God has made himself known to me. The hard part is you have to believe before God acts in your life like He has in mine. It all started with an act of faith a long time ago.

I prayed that God will make more attempts to make Himself known to you. You will have a spiritual battle in your mind. God talks, but Satan always tries to make you doubt, ask more questions, and be skeptical. At some point, you'll have to reach the point where you say, "This is what I believe. I can't see and understand everything, but I'm going to put my trust in God. I'm going to accept Jesus as my savior and confess my sins." At that time, God will come into fellowship with you and if you serve Him, He'll really make himself known to you and there's nothing in this world that will make you change your mind. It's like Monty Hall on "Let's Make a Deal." You have to pick curtain #3 before you see what's back there.

Holy Mackeral Lonny. If I didn't know better I'd say you are a minister in the AF! LOL Seriously, you are exactly right and I know that it is sometimes really hard to beleive that 'God wouldn't let this happen to me'. But I guess my favorite saying is HE will not give you any more than you can handle! When I think things are bad for me, I usually don't have to look very far to see someone that is a whole lot less fortunate than me!

If I could just get you to come over to SC's sideline, you would be perfect in my eyes! LOL Once again, another GREAT POST!

lonny23
10-24-2005, 09:06 PM
Did Jesus and Mary Magdalen ever get busy?
No. Jesus died on the cross as a sinless man. He never got married and did not have any offspring. Getting it on with Mary would've been adultery and would've made Jesus a sinner. The whole reason He was born a virgin birth without a natural father was to be the only other person besides Adam and Eve, who were created humans, that was born without sin. Jesus was placed in Mary's womb and the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. I can't explain how it happened, but that's the story. I can't explain many of the things of the spiritual realm, but I will know one day when I get to heaven.

Jesus was a man and he had all the same temptations we have and faced. Satan came against Him with greed, lust, anger, pride and everything. Jesus had a great following and I can promise you he had plenty of chances to commit adultery. The difference is He didn't commit adultery. The sacrificial lamb in the Old Testament that was slain for the sins of the Jews had to be spotless and without blemish. Jesus replaced that lamb when He died on the cross and the Lamb of God on the cross was without sin. He took on the sins of the world when He was on that cross and because of that, His Father in heaven who we call God, had to turn His face away from His son because he couldn't look upon sin. Jesus died for 3 days and went to hell to take back the keys of death, hell, and the grave. He died so all that believe on Him might have eternity in heaven. He is our bridge to the Father.

Fleeman93
10-24-2005, 09:09 PM
I'm going to stay away from this one, less what I already have said.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 09:13 PM
I think it's a fair question as well. That's what kicks butt about being human. Your mind can wonder and you can question things.

I've heard arguements from both sides that made really good sense. As for me, I guess I've wondered that was well. It really holds nothing for my own personal faith. It's the same as my old question of: Who were the inhabitants of Nod? We know from the Bible that there were entities of some form there because it states that Caine took a wife from Nod. I've not ever been able to get a good solid answer from anyone on that one. But I feel like there were the fallen angels and/or Gods first attempts of "human" like beings. I think the "gaints" mentioned in the Bible were the offspring of these beings.. I think their bloodlines probably continue to run today. And by that, I mean genetically. That helps to explain certain things.. Like why almost all really fat people have the same facial features..DownsSydrome has a same basic likeness that could be explained that way as well.

And before anybody says otherwise, I'm not picking on anyone. I have a niece with downs that is wonderful. And I'm kinda pudgey..
I see you put pudgy in small letters! :p

The bloodlines of fallen angels with humans did happen before the flood. It was Satans attempt to keep God from using Jesus in the New Testament.

I pretty much always thought Cain got married to one of his relatives since His family started the current run of humans on earth. I have no proof. The Bible doesn't tell us if God created other people besides Adam and Eve. All we know is those 2 were the forerunners of what would become the nation of Israel. I once tracked a thread of my family tree all the way back to Adam. It was something like 160 generations ago. Once I got to Noah and his 3 sons, I knew I'd get to Adam.

lonny23
10-24-2005, 09:23 PM
Holy Mackeral Lonny. If I didn't know better I'd say you are a minister in the AF! LOL Seriously, you are exactly right and I know that it is sometimes really hard to beleive that 'God wouldn't let this happen to me'. But I guess my favorite saying is HE will not give you any more than you can handle! When I think things are bad for me, I usually don't have to look very far to see someone that is a whole lot less fortunate than me!

If I could just get you to come over to SC's sideline, you would be perfect in my eyes! LOL Once again, another GREAT POST!
You know, I really do like Clemens. I can't like them as much as Judson because that would be hypocritical. They're next to Judson and a lot of the Randolph people live there. Hey, I like the Clemens colors more than Judson's colors, but I can't like the team more. I hope Randall Reese gets to play more since Henry got hurt.

So far, God has always used me in the field. I don't pastor a church, but I've preached and done Bible studies. Mostly, I just talk to the people I know and meet. Many people wait for the lost to come to church to minister to them. We have to do like Jesus and go to the lost. The Pharisees couldn't understand why Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes but He did because they needed Him and were lost. He showed them love and made them want to love Him. We still have Pharisees that judge how a person coming to church looks and they get real harsh about a person's sins. I'll be the last person to try to minimize sins, but you have to understand that the lost aren't convicted of their sins as much as we are because they aren't in a right relationship with God. We have to call sin for what it is and that's sin, but we can't get emotional and judgmental in condemning a person's sins.

Redneckn
10-24-2005, 11:06 PM
I see you put pudgy in small letters! :p

The bloodlines of fallen angels with humans did happen before the flood. It was Satans attempt to keep God from using Jesus in the New Testament.

I pretty much always thought Cain got married to one of his relatives since His family started the current run of humans on earth. I have no proof. The Bible doesn't tell us if God created other people besides Adam and Eve. All we know is those 2 were the forerunners of what would become the nation of Israel. I once tracked a thread of my family tree all the way back to Adam. It was something like 160 generations ago. Once I got to Noah and his 3 sons, I knew I'd get to Adam.


And I thought I was kool when I traced my lines back to 1250(ish) on me moms side and 1530 on me dads side..

lonny23
10-24-2005, 11:21 PM
And I thought I was kool when I traced my lines back to 1250(ish) on me moms side and 1530 on me dads side..
It wasn't my direct line with my last name, but it was a takeoff thread on one of my ancestors. My relatives came from England around 1720, but some of the family tree lived in a castle in Scotland for about 300 years from the 1200's to the 1500's. They were descendents of King Bruce of Scotland, who was defeated by William Wallace, like in the Braveheart movies. Anyway, Brutus was the descendent of a bunch of Kings of Scotland, Spain, and a bunch of other places that are no longer countries. I was able to trace from him back to Adam.

Redneckn
10-24-2005, 11:44 PM
That kool.. Me moms line goes back to William the Conqueror, but I've not been able to fully trace it back that far just yet.
Me pops people were WilliamWallace types as well. We've always been stupid rednecks..


I'm afraid we're hijacking this thread.. crap. :o

lonny23
10-24-2005, 11:51 PM
That kool.. Me moms line goes back to William the Conqueror, but I've not been able to fully trace it back that far just yet.
Me pops people were WilliamWallace types as well. We've always been stupid rednecks..


I'm afraid we're hijacking this thread.. crap. :o
It's like the Hatfields and McCoys. My people fought your people 700 years ago!

Redneckn
10-25-2005, 12:11 AM
It's like the Hatfields and McCoys. My people fought your people 700 years ago!

It's really quite interesting.. My mom and dads people fought each other back in the days of WilliamWallace, in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and I look more like moms people, my brother like my dads people, and he and I dont get along.. go figure that..

lonny23
10-25-2005, 01:22 AM
This thread has been closed twice, but it needed to stay open until we really got off topic! :D

Let the conversation continue.

zippy
10-25-2005, 01:36 AM
Can someone tell me of a school that does not say the lords prayer in the locker room prior to taking the field? I know SLC does it, I have seen pictures. SV does it, as well as several teams they have played this year. When I was playing, we did it and after I graduated, it was not allowed, but they still did it. If a kid didnt want to participate, he didnt say the prayer. Simple as that. Why such a big deal recently? 100 year go by, and no its a big deal. People have been buying coffee for 100's of years, and one day someone is too stupid to realize the **** is accaully hot and will burn you, so they sue and win millions. Any resemblence here I wonder. Either that or they just want to cause problems. People are really getting on my nerves, and I am glad I am not involved in the governement today, cause I would go insane with some of this BS. If you dont believe in GOD, dont pray. Simple as that.

lonny23
10-25-2005, 04:30 AM
Can someone tell me of a school that does not say the lords prayer in the locker room prior to taking the field? I know SLC does it, I have seen pictures. SV does it, as well as several teams they have played this year. When I was playing, we did it and after I graduated, it was not allowed, but they still did it. If a kid didnt want to participate, he didnt say the prayer. Simple as that. Why such a big deal recently? 100 year go by, and no its a big deal. People have been buying coffee for 100's of years, and one day someone is too stupid to realize the **** is accaully hot and will burn you, so they sue and win millions. Any resemblence here I wonder. Either that or they just want to cause problems. People are really getting on my nerves, and I am glad I am not involved in the governement today, cause I would go insane with some of this BS. If you dont believe in GOD, dont pray. Simple as that.
I heard there's an orange team that's coached by the antichrist. I don't think he does the Lord's Prayer. At least that's what I heard! ;)

You know I'd do the same thing if I hated God. If you hate God, you should want to work against God. Here's the problem. There is a higher % of people that hate God who do something about it than the % of people who claim to love God, who try to further His work. One side does a better job working than the other side and that's why we're in the situation we're in now.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 07:46 AM
Wasn't it Mary Magdalene that sat next to Jesus during the last supper?

lonny23
10-25-2005, 08:41 AM
Wasn't it Mary Magdalene that sat next to Jesus during the last supper?
That was John the Revelator. Judas dipped in the same dish as Jesus, so he couldn't have been too far away. The only people that are mentioned at The Last Supper were the 12 disciples. The Bible says nothing about anybody else. The first 3 gospels all say Jesus ate with the 12 disciples.

That might've been in the movie, "The Last Temptation of Christ", but I never saw the movie. There was a book not too long ago that has been considered blasphemous of Christ, also.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 09:29 AM
Didn't Mary Magdalene write the Fourth Gospel which is know as the Gospel of John?

lonny23
10-25-2005, 11:38 AM
Didn't Mary Magdalene write the Fourth Gospel which is know as the Gospel of John?
No, the person that Jesus loved (John) wrote the 4th Gospel. Funny thing is he also wrote 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John. You wouldn't necessarily know he wrote Revelation, though.

If Mary had written John, she would've said John, not the disciple that Jesus loved. Jesus didn't have any women disciples. Women followed Him, but weren't one of the 12 disciples.

George Carlin's story is funny, but there isn't a Red the Apostle either! :D

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 11:59 AM
You should research what scholars are accepting now. You are in the dark. I would have to assume that it is because you have no desire to come out of it.

biggest buff fan
10-25-2005, 12:16 PM
Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.


This is Gods way of saying to us we better clean up our acts and just maybe he is trying to weed out people like you. I really can't believe what I am reading....How very sad......that is what is wrong with our world.

implacable44
10-25-2005, 12:35 PM
Didn't Mary Magdalene write the Fourth Gospel which is know as the Gospel of John?

as opposed to you- being the enlightened one i assume ?

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 12:46 PM
Fair enough Implacable, attack me for what a lot of scholars are starting to think / prove. I didn't say that I was the enlightened one or that I was one of the scholars that think this. Do a little research and save the attacks.

implacable44
10-25-2005, 12:48 PM
Fair enough Implacable, attack me for what a lot of scholars are starting to think / prove. I didn't say that I was the enlightened one or that I was one of the scholars that think this. Do a little research and save the attacks.

I am not attacking you Fleeman - I was posing a question. How can he be in the dark but you are the enlighted one because some "expert" or "scholar" claims that x or y is correct? - tell me where to research this information and I will research it.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 01:01 PM
If you care to know then you can and will find what you are looking for. Try searching some of these though:

Mary Magdalene
Gnostic
Gospel of John
Beloved Disciple

implacable44
10-25-2005, 01:06 PM
If you care to know then you can and will find what you are looking for. Try searching some of these though:

Mary Magdalene
Gnostic
Gospel of John
Beloved Disciple


sounds to me like somebody puts a little too much faith into the DaVincci code- I will look these up and see what they say - and see about the source.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 01:22 PM
I have never read the Davinci Code, nor do I know anything about it. I just have my doubts about certain things and those doubts were derived from research and logic.

implacable44
10-25-2005, 01:25 PM
all right - so based on this search - and I dont know which source you lay claim to or believe in but there are several different papers written claiming to find MM as the author of the 4th gospel and the beloved disciple but then there are others who refute that citing quotes from the bible about "him" etc when referring to the "beloved"

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 01:31 PM
If you continue to read into it then you will find the reason that the Bible says what it does. Be patient Daniel son!

lonny23
10-25-2005, 02:36 PM
You should research what scholars are accepting now. You are in the dark. I would have to assume that it is because you have no desire to come out of it.
I've already seen the light. I don't worry about what the scholars and theologins think. Many of them have minds that cause them to question the basis of their Christian walk. I'm all for education but also realize how Satan has infiltrated and corrupted our education system. That's a key battleground for him. If he gets the schools and colleges, he gets the next generation of Americans. Our views and lifestyles are primarily set in place by time you get out of high school, but especially college.

lonny23
10-25-2005, 02:41 PM
This is Gods way of saying to us we better clean up our acts and just maybe he is trying to weed out people like you. I really can't believe what I am reading....How very sad......that is what is wrong with our world.
God doesn't try to weed people out. He allows tragedy to come the way of certain places and to certain people because of their sins, but he mostly allows things to happen to further his plan for His Kingdom. He doesn't just lash out at people for sinning or we'd all be dead. God is merciful and keeps giving people chances to accept salvation and serve Him.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 02:42 PM
As I said, you are in the dark and have no desire to educate yourself. Think about this one Lonny. What if parts of the Bible were wrong? How would you know? How would your Christian teachers know? How would their teachers know. If you gave Green Eggs and Ham by Dr Seus as a child and he never saw real eggs and ham then he might just think they are supposed to be green.

implacable44
10-25-2005, 02:50 PM
As I said, you are in the dark and have no desire to educate yourself. Think about this one Lonny. What if parts of the Bible were wrong? How would you know? How would your Christian teachers know? How would their teachers know. If you gave Green Eggs and Ham by Dr Seus as a child and he never saw real eggs and ham then he might just think they are supposed to be green.

I am not buying any of this stuff I am reading - that is to say specifically I am not feeling it - You can debate this all day - everyday as most people do - some of the links on the search lead to message boards with very involved conversations about this topic - in a nutshell the wonderful world of "what if" is full of confusion, opinion ( some self-serving- some genuine) and in my mind utter chaos. Your relationship with Diety ( higher power) is purely personal and has the majority of it's foundation through feelings and thoughts - personal revelations if you will. This conversation about Mary being the beloved and green eggs - although entertaining has no basis in fact - as soem could say the same about the Bible and religion in general. In a nutshell I know what I feel and I know what my heart tells me -- I know what I believe. Logic or science etc does not trump belief or faith in my mind.

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 02:59 PM
Does someone that has never been introduced to the Bible or religion have the chance to feel that same thing that you speak of even though they don't know it exsists.

implacable44
10-25-2005, 03:09 PM
Sure - I believe they do. but that is my belief. I dont think you need to read the bible to carry on a conversation with Diety and feel a response. IMO

Fleeman93
10-25-2005, 03:16 PM
But if you were never introduced to the Diety then how do you know to communicate with him?

implacable44
10-25-2005, 03:20 PM
But if you were never introduced to the Diety then how do you know to communicate with him?

How do you communicate with anything ? trial and error I guess. I mean imagine the first conversation between the Christopher Columbus and the Indians?

SLCDad
10-25-2005, 04:14 PM
But if you were never introduced to the Diety then how do you know to communicate with him?Perhaps I could suggest that a person go behind closed doors (or anywhere else where they could be alone) and talk to God. Be honest. Be humble. And then listen to your heart. Be persistent but patient.

There are some things that can get in the way of hearing God (anger, hate, alcohol, deliberate sin, etc.). Talking to God is more successful if these things are taken care of first (if possible). Then a person is in a better position and is more sensitive to understand when God is speaking back. That's how I see it.

lonny23
10-25-2005, 10:24 PM
As I said, you are in the dark and have no desire to educate yourself. Think about this one Lonny. What if parts of the Bible were wrong? How would you know? How would your Christian teachers know? How would their teachers know. If you gave Green Eggs and Ham by Dr Seus as a child and he never saw real eggs and ham then he might just think they are supposed to be green.
I know the stuff is real because I get my prayers answered. I ask for specific stuff, too. It's very obvious to me that God is in control of my life, because luck and chance stuff only go so far. The hard part is you can't see what I see because you don't live the life I live. If you were in my shoes, you'd know I'm telling you the truth because you would experience the same things. You don't have my experience and that's why you question the things of the Bible. I know they're true because I've seen them proven over and over. All of us that go to church are at different levels and some here might have experiences that I haven't had yet.

lonny23
10-25-2005, 10:30 PM
Does someone that has never been introduced to the Bible or religion have the chance to feel that same thing that you speak of even though they don't know it exsists.
To an extent, yes, but not completely. You can be aware that there is a creator of the earth, but you never know the love of Jesus or the guidance of the Holy Spirit without being exposed to the Bible.

lonny23
10-25-2005, 10:32 PM
But if you were never introduced to the Diety then how do you know to communicate with him?
It's pretty much inate in everybody to think that something created this world and that there is a higher power.

flyerstorockets
10-25-2005, 10:48 PM
I understand the positon of those that want to keep the separation of church and state on the issue of prayer in the schools. I am a Christian so it's fine for me to have prayer in the schools but in our country, we have to be fair to those people of different faiths. If we are going to allow 'Christian prayer' we then have to be sensitive to those that want to publically display their forms of prayer, even if it includes bashing the God that I love so much. I am very fortunate to have 3 boys that pray with their football teams before and after every practice and game. Those that choose not to participate in prayer, go their own way.

lonny23
10-26-2005, 02:33 AM
I understand the positon of those that want to keep the separation of church and state on the issue of prayer in the schools. I am a Christian so it's fine for me to have prayer in the schools but in our country, we have to be fair to those people of different faiths. If we are going to allow 'Christian prayer' we then have to be sensitive to those that want to publically display their forms of prayer, even if it includes bashing the God that I love so much. I am very fortunate to have 3 boys that pray with their football teams before and after every practice and game. Those that choose not to participate in prayer, go their own way.
I agree with you on that. Military chaplains have to open their doors to all forms of religion. That mean Wiccans, Buddhists, and Muslims.