Dallas Jesuit - Facts

[RangerFan]

Dallas Jesuit was in a league (TCIL) that disbanded in 1999. The two private school leagues that were left (TAPPS & SPC) would not let Dallas Jesuit enter because they were considered too large. Dallas Jesuit tried to play an independent schedule for three years while trying hard to get into the UIL (via begging, legislation, and eventually a lawsuit). Eventually, the UIL let Dallas Jesuit in but told them they would have to follow all UIL athletic rules and would have to play in 5A (Dallas Jesuit has about 1,030 boys in grades 9-12 for an enrollment of 2,060, which would make it a large 4A school). Dallas Jesuit has been in the UIl since 2003 in all sports except football (began in UIL in 2004). In football Jesuit has made the playoffs three times in five seasons. Jesuit has won one district title (2004) and has won one playoff game (2004). Jesuit has done average to well in other sports, too. Soccer has had the best chance to win a UIL 5A State Title, but basketball and baseball have made the playoffs several times. Jesuit has had state champions in wrestling and swimming, but no team sport has won a 5A State Title. Jesuit has "feeder schools" that are parochial middle schools, but none of these schools have teams that run a Jesuit offense or defense or have coaches that help at Jesuit. There is no true feeder system, and Jesuit does not hire or fire middle school coaches at any of the parochial schools. Jesuit costs about $12,000 a year to attend. It is true that some Jesuit students get financial aid, but this is based 100% on need. Last time I checked, all public schools are free. And, everyone, public or private, pays for this public education. Jesuit does not recruit athletes. Over 500 boys apply for about 270 spots in 9th grade, and admission is given to those who are the brightest, regardless of their athletic ability. Jesuit is at a severe disadvantage in most sports because the school is more of an academic school. Most boys attending Jesuit live within 10 miles of the school. Some boys live farther away, but most come from parochial schools. Parents send their sons to Jesuit for many different reasons. I sent my sons to Jesuit because I believe it is the best Catholic education in the city and because I believe in a Jesuit education. I hope the teams all do well, but I don't think Jesuit puts winning a state title in football over the overall education and mission of the school. Jesuit's football program is good. They pay their head coach less than all other UIL 5A coaches. His staff has fewer coaches. Their student-athletes have very demanding course loads. And, they play up in classification. These are all disadvantages. To their credit, the folks at jesuit don't make excuses in any sport. If they cheated, recruited, and broke UIl rules, then they would have an unfair advantage. They don't and won't, which makes all of the accusations unfair. Most of the coaches and teams who have played against Jesuit teams in districts have nothing but goof things to say. And, I think Jesuit has only added to an already strong UIL. Hopefully that will only continue.

[rwilleby]

Sympathy? Anyone? Anyone?

[DrEdward]

Dallas Jesuit was in a league (TCIL) that disbanded in 1999. The two private school leagues that were left (TAPPS & SPC) would not let Dallas Jesuit enter because they were considered too large. Dallas Jesuit tried to play an independent schedule for three years while trying hard to get into the UIL (via begging, legislation, and eventually a lawsuit). Eventually, the UIL let Dallas Jesuit in but told them they would have to follow all UIL athletic rules and would have to play in 5A (Dallas Jesuit has about 1,030 boys in grades 9-12 for an enrollment of 2,060, which would make it a large 4A school). Dallas Jesuit has been in the UIl since 2003 in all sports except football (began in UIL in 2004). In football Jesuit has made the playoffs three times in five seasons. Jesuit has won one district title (2004) and has won one playoff game (2004). Jesuit has done average to well in other sports, too. Soccer has had the best chance to win a UIL 5A State Title, but basketball and baseball have made the playoffs several times. Jesuit has had state champions in wrestling and swimming, but no team sport has won a 5A State Title. Jesuit has "feeder schools" that are parochial middle schools, but none of these schools have teams that run a Jesuit offense or defense or have coaches that help at Jesuit. There is no true feeder system, and Jesuit does not hire or fire middle school coaches at any of the parochial schools. Jesuit costs about $12,000 a year to attend. It is true that some Jesuit students get financial aid, but this is based 100% on need. Last time I checked, all public schools are free. And, everyone, public or private, pays for this public education. Jesuit does not recruit athletes. Over 500 boys apply for about 270 spots in 9th grade, and admission is given to those who are the brightest, regardless of their athletic ability. Jesuit is at a severe disadvantage in most sports because the school is more of an academic school. Most boys attending Jesuit live within 10 miles of the school. Some boys live farther away, but most come from parochial schools. Parents send their sons to Jesuit for many different reasons. I sent my sons to Jesuit because I believe it is the best Catholic education in the city and because I believe in a Jesuit education. I hope the teams all do well, but I don't think Jesuit puts winning a state title in football over the overall education and mission of the school. Jesuit's football program is good. They pay their head coach less than all other UIL 5A coaches. His staff has fewer coaches. Their student-athletes have very demanding course loads. And, they play up in classification. These are all disadvantages. To their credit, the folks at jesuit don't make excuses in any sport. If they cheated, recruited, and broke UIl rules, then they would have an unfair advantage. They don't and won't, which makes all of the accusations unfair. Most of the coaches and teams who have played against Jesuit teams in districts have nothing but goof things to say. And, I think Jesuit has only added to an already strong UIL. Hopefully that will only continue.

Those goofy comments are critical. :D I don't believe anyone is criticizing the Jesuit schools per se. However, wonder about some of your statements. Where did you get the information to determine that Dallas Jesuit's football coach is paid less than any 5A coach in the state? Yes, your current size would make them among the very largest 4As in the state, but there are smaller schools which elect to play up in 5A. In addition, Jesuit is not unique in having students with demanding course loads; some public schools also manage to produce some pretty decent student athletes as well.

Most of the comments are not directed at Jesuit, but rather at private schools in general, despite the title of the other thread.

[DrEdward]

Sympathy? Anyone? Anyone?

A bit.

[Canes0177]

Insightful post. Thanks.

[BlackAttack]

Boooooohooooooo.

Life is full of choices. People who send their kids to private schools made a choice. Deal with it.

[SWMHebron]

Boooooohooooooo.

Life is full of choices. People who send their kids to private schools made a choice. Deal with it.

:notworthy

[Trinity Trojan Fan For Li]

It is true that some Jesuit students get financial aid, but this is based 100% on need.

"And there's your sign," to quote Bill Engvall. Whose need and for what purpose?

[Coach J]

Dallas Jesuit was in a league (TCIL) that disbanded in 1999. The two private school leagues that were left (TAPPS & SPC) would not let Dallas Jesuit enter because they were considered too large. Dallas Jesuit tried to play an independent schedule for three years while trying hard to get into the UIL (via begging, legislation, and eventually a lawsuit). Eventually, the UIL let Dallas Jesuit in but told them they would have to follow all UIL athletic rules and would have to play in 5A (Dallas Jesuit has about 1,030 boys in grades 9-12 for an enrollment of 2,060, which would make it a large 4A school). Dallas Jesuit has been in the UIl since 2003 in all sports except football (began in UIL in 2004). In football Jesuit has made the playoffs three times in five seasons. Jesuit has won one district title (2004) and has won one playoff game (2004). Jesuit has done average to well in other sports, too. Soccer has had the best chance to win a UIL 5A State Title, but basketball and baseball have made the playoffs several times. Jesuit has had state champions in wrestling and swimming, but no team sport has won a 5A State Title. Jesuit has "feeder schools" that are parochial middle schools, but none of these schools have teams that run a Jesuit offense or defense or have coaches that help at Jesuit. There is no true feeder system, and Jesuit does not hire or fire middle school coaches at any of the parochial schools. Jesuit costs about $12,000 a year to attend. It is true that some Jesuit students get financial aid, but this is based 100% on need. Last time I checked, all public schools are free. And, everyone, public or private, pays for this public education. Jesuit does not recruit athletes. Over 500 boys apply for about 270 spots in 9th grade, and admission is given to those who are the brightest, regardless of their athletic ability. Jesuit is at a severe disadvantage in most sports because the school is more of an academic school. Most boys attending Jesuit live within 10 miles of the school. Some boys live farther away, but most come from parochial schools. Parents send their sons to Jesuit for many different reasons. I sent my sons to Jesuit because I believe it is the best Catholic education in the city and because I believe in a Jesuit education. I hope the teams all do well, but I don't think Jesuit puts winning a state title in football over the overall education and mission of the school. Jesuit's football program is good. They pay their head coach less than all other UIL 5A coaches. His staff has fewer coaches. Their student-athletes have very demanding course loads. And, they play up in classification. These are all disadvantages. To their credit, the folks at jesuit don't make excuses in any sport. If they cheated, recruited, and broke UIl rules, then they would have an unfair advantage. They don't and won't, which makes all of the accusations unfair. Most of the coaches and teams who have played against Jesuit teams in districts have nothing but goof things to say. And, I think Jesuit has only added to an already strong UIL. Hopefully that will only continue.

How easy would it be to offer "financial aid" to a kid that happens to be a good athlete? And how would anyone know different... Unfortunately, that's the preception.

[Canes0177]

How easy would it be to offer "financial aid" to a kid that happens to be a good athlete? And how would anyone know different... Unfortunately, that's the preception.

Simple economics.

The school has to stay solvent. If they give financial aid to everybody, even those that don't qualify, the school won't be able to meet its financial obligations.

[rwilleby]

Simple economics.

The school has to stay solvent. If they give financial aid to everybody, even those that don't qualify, the school won't be able to meet its financial obligations.

You only need 22...

[Firebird]

You only need 22...

Man, you're really paranoid about this. Is there any evidence that Jesuit has recruited 22 stud football players and given them all financial aid?

[rwilleby]

Man, you're really paranoid about this. Is there any evidence that Jesuit has recruited 22 stud football players and given them all financial aid?

Ha! No, I'm not paranoid... I could really care less as I think the whole thing is funny... They've earned the flak they get, IMO...

I played ball against JES and Bishop Byrne in the 70's and they were just another pre-district school...

But to say recruiting doesn't happen is, well a lie...

[ktCarl]

If you put a kid in private school because they will get a better education, more discipline and better all round experience why is there a need for athletics? I thought a better education was the prime directive for a private school. Why do those in private schools have the need to leave the public schools EXCEPT for sports? They need a league of their own where maybe the private vs public sports programs would be allowed to compete during the public schools' non-District season.

[SLC93]

Simple economics.

The school has to stay solvent. If they give financial aid to everybody, even those that don't qualify, the school won't be able to meet its financial obligations.

12000/yr

x

2000 kids

=

24,000,000 in tuition would be the tuition fund max then subtract financial aid ...... they're doing just fine from a solvency stand point.

[Firebird]

Ha! No, I'm not paranoid... I could really care less as I think the whole thing is funny... They've earned the flak they get, IMO...

I played ball against JES and Bishop Byrne in the 70's and they were just another pre-district school...

But to say recruiting doesn't happen is, well a lie...

To say that public schools don't recruit is, well, a lie. To say that they don't play fast and loose with residency rules is a lie.

[Firebird]

If you put a kid in private school because they will get a better education, more discipline and better all round experience why is there a need for athletics? I thought a better education was the prime directive for a private school. Why do those in private schools have the need to leave the public schools EXCEPT for sports? They need a league of their own where maybe the private vs public sports programs would be allowed to compete during the public schools' non-District season.

I thought that education is the prime directive for any school, including our public schools. In that case, why the hell is anyone worried at all about extracurricluar games.

[pied]

I thought that education is the prime directive for any school, including our public schools. In that case, why the hell is anyone worried at all about extracurricluar games.

Good point, why are private school parents concerned w/getting in the UIL?

[SLC93]

I will grant you that their admission hasn't quite opened Pandora's Box, yet, but it was never about one private tilting the scales or altering the system. The concern would be in all were let in. The UIL is miles ahead of many other governing bodies with regards to their rules and policies but they are simply not set up to maintain the level of guardianship it would require to let them all in. I do not think the privates could ever take over football, like a JC has in Louisianna, but they could easily monopolize basketball and baseball.

[SLC93]

Good point, why are private school parents concerned w/getting in the UIL?

Exposure, creditability and respect ....... parents need their cred, too.:D

[ktCarl]

I thought that education is the prime directive for any school, including our public schools. In that case, why the hell is anyone worried at all about extracurricluar games.

Yes, education SHOULD be the prime directive of both. If anyone is 'worried' about extracurricular games then why have the need to compete with the public schools UIL system?. "Let's pull our kids out of the public school system. We want our kids to have a better education and we just don't think public schools are safe." "But can't we still play baseball with them?" "Sure. We can have our cake and eat it too."
Maybe the public's UIL system should have sued to play the private school institutions.

[rwilleby]

To say that public schools don't recruit is, well, a lie. To say that they don't play fast and loose with residency rules is a lie.

Hmmmm... Let's see... I don't think you'll find ANYPLACE where I said the Publics were innocent in everything SOME of them do and ALL of them are clean...

Who said that?

Sure, you will find where some Publics have been caught and punished... You'll also find where some students move into a school district to go to a specific school (legal BTW)... You might even find some folks bending the rules to get to play at A instead of B...

BUT, to say that the TWO Privates in the UIL do not recruit is at least a 50% lie because the one near me has tried and probably succeeded more than once...

[Firebird]

Hmmmm... Let's see... I don't think you'll find ANYPLACE where I said the Publics were innocent in everything SOME of them do and ALL of them are clean...

Who said that?

Sure, you will find where some Publics have been caught and punished... You'll also find where some students move into a school district to go to a specific school (legal BTW)... You might even find some folks bending the rules to get to play at A instead of B...

BUT, to say that the TWO Privates in the UIL do not recruit is at least a 50% lie because the one near me has tried and probably succeeded more than once...


Give details. No need for names, just details.

Thanks.

[rwilleby]

Give details. No need for names, just details.

Thanks.

Ha! No need for details... I have nothing to prove... I have my own opinion and have stated it based on my personal knowledge... Besides, I don't exactly hide behind a "made-up" name like most folks do... One can choose not to think it happens but that doesn't make it so...

Nice basketball team this year...

[hshs]

Good point, why are private school parents concerned w/getting in the UIL?

Is Dallas Jesuit concerned with getting into the UIL? Last time I checked they were already in.

Bottom line is these two schools are in. There are Positives and Negatives about this, but they are not going anywhere. The UIL wanted to keep them out as badly as anyone on this board and they were unable to do so. Now the UIL has no choice but to treat them like every other school (with the exception of the agreed upon stipulations when they entered).

As for other privates, it will never happen under the current circumstances. To enter UIL at the 5A level would destroy any other private school in the state from there applicant pool up. They are simply not big enough to compete and while recruiting can impact a small sport here or there, no private in the state outside of the Jesuits can survive in Texas 5A sports on the whole. No board for these private schools is going to approve winless seasons for 95% of their sports just for the sake of a recruiting basketball coach (cornerstone) or anything else.

Until some other private school in the state grows tenfold, Public fans can worry about the limited Jesuit annoyance. And since the title of this board is 5A Texas Football, that is very little worrying.

[DrEdward]

To say that public schools don't recruit is, well, a lie. To say that they don't play fast and loose with residency rules is a lie.

This seems quite a sweeping statement. I have no doubt that some public schools have played games with residency requirements, but that doesn't imply that all do so. Likewise, I am sure that some private schools have played recruiting games as well, especially by scholarship offers, but that does not imply that all private schools do so.

The trouble is that it seems easier to catch a public school flirting with residency requirements than it is to catch a private school offering scholarships to lure an athlete. As the inital poster pointed out, some students are provided with those scholarships, so how is any oversight body to tell the difference. Further, one does not not have to sign up twenty-two such students to build the basis of a solid team. However, it is much easier to accomplish this in a basketball program rather than a football program.

[farmerfan]

I will grant you that their admission hasn't quite opened Pandora's Box, yet, but it was never about one private tilting the scales or altering the system. The concern would be in all were let in. The UIL is miles ahead of many other governing bodies with regards to their rules and policies but they are simply not set up to maintain the level of guardianship it would require to let them all in. I do not think the privates could ever take over football, like a JC has in Louisianna, but they could easily monopolize basketball and baseball.

You guys are seriously paranoid over the two Jesuits and while I was a strong proponent on letting them into the UIL, I do not think we have to worry about other schools petitioning to get into the UIL. TAPPS and the SPC are two very strong leagues and the big boys in both leagues are very happy where they are at. Schools such as Trinity Christian Addison, Liberty Christian, Houston Christian, Kelly, Second Baptist, Nolan Catholic, Lynch, Dallas Christian simply have no desire of ever leaving TAPPS. Those wopuld be the schools you would have to worry about but they all have never been in any type of serious trouble to my knowledge for recruiting or anything else. Grace Prep in Arlington simply does not have a strong enough financial bacing without Mike Barbers prision ministry running it so they are out of the equation too. Texas is uniquie and IMO will always stay a public dominated state in regards to its athletics and even academics. I could go off on a private school education but I will choose not to for now.

[pied]

You guys are seriously paranoid over the two Jesuits and while I was a strong proponent on letting them into the UIL, I do not think we have to worry about other schools petitioning to get into the UIL. TAPPS and the SPC are two very strong leagues and the big boys in both leagues are very happy where they are at. Schools such as Trinity Christian Addison, Liberty Christian, Houston Christian, Kelly, Second Baptist, Nolan Catholic, Lynch, Dallas Christian simply have no desire of ever leaving TAPPS. Those wopuld be the schools you would have to worry about but they all have never been in any type of serious trouble to my knowledge for recruiting or anything else. Grace Prep in Arlington simply does not have a strong enough financial bacing without Mike Barbers prision ministry running it so they are out of the equation too. Texas is uniquie and IMO will always stay a public dominated state in regards to its athletics and even academics. I could go off on a private school education but I will choose not to for now.


Liberty is on my watch list as is Prestonwood, John Paul II, and Clay Academy.

[RangerFan]

Trust me, no one at jesuit is crying about unfair things. I wasn't trying to, but perhaps I came across that way. My point was that Jesuit does not have some advantage when it comes to football; rather, they have some disadvantages. Does the coach at your school make less than $80,00? Does he teach in the classroom? Do you have 12 to 13 coaches coaching grades 9-12? Do you have feeder schools that run the same offense and defense and who assist the varsity coaches? Also, I am 100% there are some public school student-athletes taking demanding classes and getting great educations. I'm friends with many of them. But, I also know there are public school athletes not getting much of anything in the classroom. No one at Jesuit takes a weaker course load because they can't. I know public schools have to teach to all levels. Jesuit doesn't, and every football player is doing more than most. I know this because of the many friends we have who have sent there kids to public and private schools. As for financial aid, it is no different at Jesuit than it is at any college. You apply, they look at your income, and they determine what you can afford to pay. Everyone pays something. It isn't based on athletic ability, and you'll just have to trust me on that. I'm not an expert, but some of my dear friends are when it comes to Jesuit Prep. Jesuit has done just fine in football. This past season was tough, but an average Jesuit team played Allen, Wylie, Plano, Plano West, Hebron, and Coppell. Not too many UIL public schools would have done much better. Allen & Wylie proved that, and all of those other schools made the playoffs. Jesuit, which beat Plano East & McKinney Boyd, came one game (Plano West) from making the playoffs, and I though P West was the better team that night.

[aftermath]

No neighborhood boundries,lots of cash and donors, ability to give out scholarships(need based),very desirable place to educate your children??? Of course they are recruiting, who wouldn't. my kids were in pvt. school for years, they always find a place for the stud.letting them in to UIL makes it worse, they will become a factor just as they have in other states.It not paranoia ,its reality. In general our inner-city schools suck,why would someone not take a free ride for their smart,athletic boy? They are recruiting like crazy.

[Firebird]

This seems quite a sweeping statement. I have no doubt that some public schools have played games with residency requirements, but that doesn't imply that all do so. Likewise, I am sure that some private schools have played recruiting games as well, especially by scholarship offers, but that does not imply that all private schools do so.

The trouble is that it seems easier to catch a public school flirting with residency requirements than it is to catch a private school offering scholarships to lure an athlete. As the inital poster pointed out, some students are provided with those scholarships, so how is any oversight body to tell the difference. Further, one does not not have to sign up twenty-two such students to build the basis of a solid team. However, it is much easier to accomplish this in a basketball program rather than a football program.

I think the original statement about private schools was quite sweeping as well. With regards to the second part of your statement, there are some controls in there to help factor in for recruiting and scholarships:

1. A talented prospect would have to sit out one year of varsity sports after transferring in after freshman year. To my mind, that means your chances of recruiting a junior are virtually nil, and sophomore slightly higher but not much (given the importance of junior days and junior recruiting). A super talented freshman might be less of a stretch, but still, the prospect of playing on JV as a sophomore is not a small thing to consider by any stretch.

2. The attendance zones for freshmen. Of course, most freshmen do not play varsity sports, so it may seem like this is not really a control. However, you have to ask yourself if these schools are really out recruiting Jr. High kids. Are Jesuit scouts at area middle school games in the stands, shaking hands with parents? Do talented Jr. High kids regularly disappear for a year then resurface playing varsity at the Jesuit schools? I don't think so, but correct me if I am wrong. Not to mention the simple fact that recruiting 7th and 8th graders has to be one of the biggest crapshoots I have heard of.

Now consider the facts:

The Jesuit schools have not won a state championship in 5A in a team sport. While they have sent kids on to play college sports, they are by no means even near the top talent factories in the state when it comes to getting scholarships. They have won a single district championship and very few playoff games in football. Thus far, the sole team sport that they are enjoying true success at is boys soccer, and even there they haven't won the trophy yet. And they have not yet been sanctioned or slapped for recruiting violations. (Several public schools have in that time frame, though). All the allegations in the end amount to hearsay.

The fury over this in no way matches the reality of what is happening.

[Firebird]

No neighborhood boundries,lots of cash and donors, ability to give out scholarships(need based),very desirable place to educate your children??? Of course they are recruiting, who wouldn't. my kids were in pvt. school for years, they always find a place for the stud.letting them in to UIL makes it worse, they will become a factor just as they have in other states.It not paranoia ,its reality. In general our inner-city schools suck,why would someone not take a free ride for their smart,athletic boy? They are recruiting like crazy.

Who have they recruited and why haven't those efforts translated into success on the field?

[rwilleby]

No neighborhood boundries,lots of cash and donors, ability to give out scholarships(need based),very desirable place to educate your children??? Of course they are recruiting, who wouldn't. my kids were in pvt. school for years, they always find a place for the stud.letting them in to UIL makes it worse, they will become a factor just as they have in other states.It not paranoia ,its reality. In general our inner-city schools suck,why would someone not take a free ride for their smart,athletic boy? They are recruiting like crazy.

You do know you're a "Hater"... :)

But that is logical... But in the scope of things they're not an issue... Unless you're playing them in the basketball finals... Or are in their district and have to compete with them... Kind of like the Alief teams...

[Firebird]

Hmmmm... Let's see... I don't think you'll find ANYPLACE where I said the Publics were innocent in everything SOME of them do and ALL of them are clean...

Who said that?

Sure, you will find where some Publics have been caught and punished... You'll also find where some students move into a school district to go to a specific school (legal BTW)... You might even find some folks bending the rules to get to play at A instead of B...

BUT, to say that the TWO Privates in the UIL do not recruit is at least a 50% lie because the one near me has tried and probably succeeded more than once...


Gotcha. So although we know that there is plenty of cheating going on a public schools, two private schools might and therefore they shouldn't be let in. Makes perfect sense.

[farmerfan]

Liberty is on my watch list as is Prestonwood, John Paul II, and Clay Academy.

I can certinaly understand your reasoning. If I was not familiar with the private schools like I am, I too would have the same concern. I can't speak for John Paul and Prestonwood but I can somewhat for Liberty. As long as the same cast of members is there, they will stay in TAPPS. Even though Coach Bowles retired after this past football season, I believe they did hire from within and if that is the case then they will stay in TAPPS. Football is the dominant sport there and they know their place is in TAPPS. They have a great area to draw kids from and their thought process is more along the lines of maybe they can get the parents of kids who will not start at your FM, Marcus, Carrolls, Kellers, Ryans, Guyers, Argyle and more to look into Liberty. While theat certainly could make for an all-star cast they still would struggle to compete for championships at the 3A level which is where their enrollment would put them. If thye went to 4A then they would not be able to compete unless some major financials came in to spice up the recruiting budget. Their tuition is roughly $12,500 a year and I believe enrollment K-12 is around 1300. Factor in salaries for their staff, budgets for football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, soccer, fine arts and each academic departemt then you would have to see tuition raise significantly and until Liberty or Prestonwood has an academic reputation of ESD or Jesuit or Greenhill then I do not see that happening.
Just my $.02.

[rwilleby]

Gotcha. So although we know that there is plenty of cheating going on a public schools, two private schools might and therefore they shouldn't be let in. Makes perfect sense.

You don't have me... I say if you're cheating you should be penalized... Public/Private I really don't care... You're too smart to act like it doesn't happen in both places and just because one might be harder to catch, well, that doesn't make it right...

I don't like people who cheat... Even if it's only cutting in line... or fiddling with the system in the dark of night... Either way it's wrong...

Frankly I don't care that the Privates are in the UIL and it doesn't matter if I did... I find it humorous... Until someone gets their eye put out, then it's not funny...

[farmerfan]

No neighborhood boundries,lots of cash and donors, ability to give out scholarships(need based),very desirable place to educate your children??? Of course they are recruiting, who wouldn't. my kids were in pvt. school for years, they always find a place for the stud.letting them in to UIL makes it worse, they will become a factor just as they have in other states.It not paranoia ,its reality. In general our inner-city schools suck,why would someone not take a free ride for their smart,athletic boy? They are recruiting like crazy.

So what school is going to petition to join the UIL? Where will thisnew private school who can afford to fund itself, fund teachers, pay coaches, have proper insurance for each kid, have quality equipment, facilities and then dish out enough money for scholies, where will this be?
As far as kids in the inner city, how are thy going to get from Oak Cliff or Balch Springs or the Grove up the Tollway to Jesuit each morning?
What private schools are recruiting like crazy right now that have not been punished by an orginization? I thought if you were kicked out of a league such as TAPPS or punished by them then that would disqualify you from even thinking about joining the UIL.

[GoOwls]

Who have they recruited and why haven't those efforts translated into success on the field?

You make a cake one ingredient at a time......give it time.

[DrEdward]

I think the original statement about private schools was quite sweeping as well. With regards to the second part of your statement, there are some controls in there to help factor in for recruiting and scholarships:

1. A talented prospect would have to sit out one year of varsity sports after transferring in after freshman year. To my mind, that means your chances of recruiting a junior are virtually nil, and sophomore slightly higher but not much (given the importance of junior days and junior recruiting). A super talented freshman might be less of a stretch, but still, the prospect of playing on JV as a sophomore is not a small thing to consider by any stretch.

2. The attendance zones for freshmen. Of course, most freshmen do not play varsity sports, so it may seem like this is not really a control. However, you have to ask yourself if these schools are really out recruiting Jr. High kids. Are Jesuit scouts at area middle school games in the stands, shaking hands with parents? Do talented Jr. High kids regularly disappear for a year then resurface playing varsity at the Jesuit schools? I don't think so, but correct me if I am wrong. Not to mention the simple fact that recruiting 7th and 8th graders has to be one of the biggest crapshoots I have heard of.

Now consider the facts:

The Jesuit schools have not won a state championship in 5A in a team sport. While they have sent kids on to play college sports, they are by no means even near the top talent factories in the state when it comes to getting scholarships. They have won a single district championship and very few playoff games in football. Thus far, the sole team sport that they are enjoying true success at is boys soccer, and even there they haven't won the trophy yet. And they have not yet been sanctioned or slapped for recruiting violations. (Several public schools have in that time frame, though). All the allegations in the end amount to hearsay.

The fury over this in no way matches the reality of what is happening.

I am fairly indifferent about the inclusion of additional private schools in the UIL. Most seem quite content to play in their own league and I have no issues with that either. As I stated earlier in this thread, I don't beleive there have been any issues with Dallas Jesuit. So I am not real sure which opening statment was sweeping; certainly not one of mine.

All I have suggested here is that it is relatively easier for private schools to recruit players via scholarship than it is for the public schools via playing games with residency requirements. That does not suggest that such is rampant in either.

The "fury," such that it is, seems equally matched by those wishing to defend the entry of private schools and those opposed to such.

[DrEdward]

Trust me, no one at jesuit is crying about unfair things. I wasn't trying to, but perhaps I came across that way. My point was that Jesuit does not have some advantage when it comes to football; rather, they have some disadvantages. Does the coach at your school make less than $80,00? Does he teach in the classroom? Do you have 12 to 13 coaches coaching grades 9-12? Do you have feeder schools that run the same offense and defense and who assist the varsity coaches? Also, I am 100% there are some public school student-athletes taking demanding classes and getting great educations. I'm friends with many of them. But, I also know there are public school athletes not getting much of anything in the classroom. No one at Jesuit takes a weaker course load because they can't. I know public schools have to teach to all levels. Jesuit doesn't, and every football player is doing more than most. I know this because of the many friends we have who have sent there kids to public and private schools. As for financial aid, it is no different at Jesuit than it is at any college. You apply, they look at your income, and they determine what you can afford to pay. Everyone pays something. It isn't based on athletic ability, and you'll just have to trust me on that. I'm not an expert, but some of my dear friends are when it comes to Jesuit Prep. Jesuit has done just fine in football. This past season was tough, but an average Jesuit team played Allen, Wylie, Plano, Plano West, Hebron, and Coppell. Not too many UIL public schools would have done much better. Allen & Wylie proved that, and all of those other schools made the playoffs. Jesuit, which beat Plano East & McKinney Boyd, came one game (Plano West) from making the playoffs, and I though P West was the better team that night.

While I can not speak as to the classroom responsibilities for coaches around the state in 5A, there are well over 100 coaches in the 4A and 5A classification making less than $80,000 annually. In more than a few, significantly less than such an annual amount.

[farmerfan]

You make a cake one ingredient at a time......give it time.

That would make sense if either of the Jesuits had a history of doing this but they don't.

[GoOwls]

Yes, education SHOULD be the prime directive of both. If anyone is 'worried' about extracurricular games then why have the need to compete with the public schools UIL system?. "Let's pull our kids out of the public school system. We want our kids to have a better education and we just don't think public schools are safe." "But can't we still play baseball with them?" "Sure. We can have our cake and eat it too." Maybe the public's UIL system should have sued to play the private school institutions.

Bird, ktCarl is right here in his basic logic.

The main reasons for putting your kid in private school is:

1. Education
2. Keeping them sheltered from the public school system.
3. The perception of keeping your kid safe.
4. Keeping them in a situation where thier educational efforts and personal charisma will make connections that will help them get prime job oppotunities after college graduation.
5. Sheltering them from the evil ways of the poor gutter rats at public school.

If you have the cash and the desire, they are noble desires to have for your childrens future.

Then why, oh why, do you petition to have your sweet little rich kid play on the field with the heathen masses in public school...to be such rich, intelligent people, why would they subject their kids to getting physically killed on the field by superior athletes.

I really don't get the logic...or lack thereof.

I'll say this, as much as I crack on Highland Park, at least those rich kids attend public school and compete straight-up with the heathen masses and hold their own and in most cases, excell in all sports....to an extreme.

I give kudos to HP for hanging in with the heathen masses.....I just don't know why Jesuit, or any other private, would want to....to quote Mr. Spock....."It's quite illogical, Captain".

[Firebird]

Bird, ktCarl is right here in his basic logic.

The main reasons for putting your kid in private school is:

1. Education
2. Keeping them sheltered from the public school system.
3. The perception of keeping your kid safe.
4. Keeping them in a situation where thier educational efforts and personal charisma will make connections that will help them get prime job oppotunities after college graduation.
5. Sheltering them from the evil ways of the poor gutter rats at public school.

If you have the cash and the desire, they are noble desires to have for your childrens future.

Then why, oh why, do you petition to have your sweet little rich kid play on the field with the heathen masses in public school...to be such rich, intelligent people, why would they subject their kids to getting physically killed on the field by superior athletes.

I really don't get the logic...or lack thereof.

I'll say this, as much as I crack on Highland Park, at least those rich kids attend public school and compete straight-up with the heathen masses and hold their own and in most cases, excell in all sports....to an extreme.

I give kudos to HP for hanging in with the heathen masses.....I just don't know why Jesuit, or any other private, would want to....to quote Mr. Spock....."It's quite illogical, Captain".


So class warfare, basically. That's why we shouldn't allow people who want to play sports with us to do so.

In any case, the Jesuits had to go to UIL as a last resort.

You should work for the Obama administration.

[pied]

That would make sense if either of the Jesuits had a history of doing this but they don't.

Again, not the Jesuits but parents in general.

I think once you see more private schools in the UIL, you wil see more and more players opting that way. I think now if a parent wants there kid to play at a school they are required to move there. In the future, that boundary will not be there.

Not implicating the Jesuits, but I don't put it past parents to facilitate shenanigans in the name of a state title. Ever hear of the cheerleader mom?

[Firebird]

Again, not the Jesuits but parents in general.

I think once you see more private schools in the UIL, you wil see more and more players opting that way. I think now if a parent wants there kid to play at a school they are required to move there. In the future, that boundary will not be there.

Not implicating the Jesuits, but I don't put it past parents to facilitate shenanigans in the name of a state title. Ever hear of the cheerleader mom?

Agreed, but the chance that people might do something wrong is no reason to refuse them the chance to do things the right way. We know for certain that there has been plenty of cheating by public schools. Most of it probably never goes detected.

I think the real truth is closer to GoOwls post, which is that people in the public schools hate people who send their kids to private schools and want to put a stick in their eye. No problem on that account, except for the fact that they are using the private school parents money and tax dollars to do so.

[farmerfan]

Bird, ktCarl is right here in his basic logic.

The main reasons for putting your kid in private school is:

1. Education
2. Keeping them sheltered from the public school system.
3. The perception of keeping your kid safe.
4. Keeping them in a situation where thier educational efforts and personal charisma will make connections that will help them get prime job oppotunities after college graduation.
5. Sheltering them from the evil ways of the poor gutter rats at public school.

If you have the cash and the desire, they are noble desires to have for your childrens future.

Then why, oh why, do you petition to have your sweet little rich kid play on the field with the heathen masses in public school...to be such rich, intelligent people, why would they subject their kids to getting physically killed on the field by superior athletes.
I really don't get the logic...or lack thereof.

I'll say this, as much as I crack on Highland Park, at least those rich kids attend public school and compete straight-up with the heathen masses and hold their own and in most cases, excell in all sports....to an extreme.

I give kudos to HP for hanging in with the heathen masses.....I just don't know why Jesuit, or any other private, would want to....to quote Mr. Spock....."It's quite illogical, Captain".

Thats a very uninformed statement. I would wager that there are more kids in private schools that come from middle to lower middle class families than do from upper class families. There are plenty of parents who sacrifice like no other to send their children to private school and that means forgoing a new vehicle, or new kitchen or pool or even a new house. Trust me when I say that too, I have seen it first hand.

[farmerfan]

Again, not the Jesuits but parents in general.

I think once you see more private schools in the UIL, you wil see more and more players opting that way. I think now if a parent wants there kid to play at a school they are required to move there. In the future, that boundary will not be there.

Not implicating the Jesuits, but I don't put it past parents to facilitate shenanigans in the name of a state title. Ever hear of the cheerleader mom?

So question,

Do you see something happening to TAPPS or the SPC in the near future that I am not aware of?

[SLC93]

You guys are seriously paranoid over the two Jesuits and while I was a strong proponent on letting them into the UIL, I do not think we have to worry about other schools petitioning to get into the UIL. TAPPS and the SPC are two very strong leagues and the big boys in both leagues are very happy where they are at. Schools such as Trinity Christian Addison, Liberty Christian, Houston Christian, Kelly, Second Baptist, Nolan Catholic, Lynch, Dallas Christian simply have no desire of ever leaving TAPPS. Those wopuld be the schools you would have to worry about but they all have never been in any type of serious trouble to my knowledge for recruiting or anything else. Grace Prep in Arlington simply does not have a strong enough financial bacing without Mike Barbers prision ministry running it so they are out of the equation too. Texas is uniquie and IMO will always stay a public dominated state in regards to its athletics and even academics. I could go off on a private school education but I will choose not to for now.

No, I don't think it's paranoia & I said that very thing regarding Texas, though I believe privates could rise is the two bballs they'll never be a serious threat to football. We're too deep for that.

[GoOwls]

That would make sense if either of the Jesuits had a history of doing this but they don't.

I'm just saying if it does happen, it will take time for the winning mindset to take hold and attract better players, from HP, for example.

[pied]

Agreed, but the chance that people might do something wrong is no reason to refuse them the chance to do things the right way. We know for certain that there has been plenty of cheating by public schools. Most of it probably never goes detected.

I think the real truth is closer to GoOwls post, which is that people in the public schools hate people who send their kids to private schools and want to put a stick in their eye. No problem on that account, except for the fact that they are using the private school parents money and tax dollars to do so.


The only thin that I have seen as the "right way" would be access to public things for taxpayers. Even then I have doubt.

To me someone claiming importance of education loses some credibility with a demand to participate in games(at a perceived higher level )as you put it.

So question,

Do you see something happening to TAPPS or the SPC in the near future that I am not aware of?

Nope. What I see are schools like Cornerstone continuing to petition and sue and eventually the lines will be less and less for admission and rogue schools will develop. Maybe it's Covenant Christian or Faith in Grapevine that hires Dodge when he gets canned in Denton. Do you think there are several families that might get there kids out of SL to go there? Then an RJ WAshington from Colleyville, and HEB isn't far away.

(please note I used Covenant and Faith as examples only)

[GoOwls]

Thats a very uninformed statement. I would wager that there are more kids in private schools that come from middle to lower middle class families than do from upper class families. There are plenty of parents who sacrifice like no other to send their children to private school and that means forgoing a new vehicle, or new kitchen or pool or even a new house. Trust me when I say that too, I have seen it first hand.

If they come from middle and lower class, they are being funded else where...plain and simple....I'm middle class and I couldn't send a kid to Jesuit if I cut satellite, internet, car payment, etc.....heck, I couldn't even get him there and get back to my work and have a way to pick him up......not feasable at all.

I work with a guy who has an only child....he moved to Lake Highalnds to try to shelter his kid....he and his wife sacrifced to send the kid to private school....but as he got to HS age, they could find no way to afford it anymore....and he was the most dedicated parent at getting his kid in private school I've ever seen.....he was almost in tears when he talked to me about his fears of sending his kid to Lake Highland HS.....:eek:

I return to my basic point, the majority of people who have their kid in private school don't want poor kids going there for any reason....that's why their kid isn't in public school....so it makes no sense to me for them to then force the issue about having their protected kid play football against D-1 athletes that could take their head off.....I just don't get the lack of common sense....you put that much care and effort in grooming your kid and then in a freak play he gets paralized by a D-1 freight train.....I just don't get it.

[farmerfan]

I'm just saying if it does happen, it will take time for the winning mindset to take hold and attract better players, from HP, for example.

This statement would be better used had I quoted one of your previous statements, but I am too lazy to do so and elected to quote this one instead.
You make a comment about HP parents not sending their kids to private schools, but who's to say that schools like Jesuit, ESD, Greenhill and St Marks are not infiltrated with HP or University Park kids already?

[farmerfan]

The only thin that I have seen as the "right way" would be access to public things for taxpayers. Even then I have doubt.

To me someone claiming importance of education loses some credibility with a demand to participate in games(at a perceived higher level )as you put it.



Nope. What I see are schools like Cornerstone continuing to petition and sue and eventually the lines will be less and less for admission and rogue schools will develop. Maybe it's Covenant Christian or Faith in Grapevine that hires Dodge when he gets canned in Denton. Do you think there are several families that might get there kids out of SL to go there? Then an RJ WAshington from Colleyville, and HEB isn't far away.

(please note I used Covenant and Faith as examples only)

Cornerstone has no grounds to stand on in its law suit to my knowledge. THey had a league to play in and were kicked out due to rules violations. I believe that right there is enough to not be granted admission into the UIL.
You make an interesting point about Dodge winding up at Faith or Covenenat but whos to say he takes the job, whos to say they can afford him, whos to say the kids follow?
Mike Johnston left Katy and went to Houston Christian and I dont recall them winning a state title in football during his tenure there.

[farmerfan]

If they come from middle and lower class, they are being funded else where...plain and simple....I'm middle class and I couldn't send a kid to Jesuit if I cut satellite, internet, car payment, etc.....heck, I couldn't even get him there and get back to my work and have a way to pick him up......not feasable at all.

I work with a guy who has an only child....he moved to Lake Highalnds to try to shelter his kid....he and his wife sacrifced to send the kid to private school....but as he got to HS age, they could find no way to afford it anymore....and he was the most dedicated parent at getting his kid in private school I've ever seen.....he was almost in tears when he talked to me about his fears of sending his kid to Lake Highland HS.....:eek:

I return to my basic point, the majority of people who have their kid in private school don't want poor kids going there for any reason....that's why their kid isn't in public school....so it makes no sense to me for them to then force the issue about having their protected kid play football against D-1 athletes that could take their head off.....I just don't get the lack of common sense....you put that much care and effort in grooming your kid and then in a freak play he gets paralized by a D-1 freight train.....I just don't get it.

I understand your argument and agree with it a lot in regards to sending kids to private schools but wanting to somehow compete with publics. Yes it is a double standard. Where I have a problem is with your words, you are putting a label on parents and kids of private school that is uninformed and stupid. You are soundling like a liberal in that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist by saying anybody who goes to private school is a elite snob who wants to be sheltered. That is simply not the case and you shoud be ashamed of yourself for even thinking that wayl.

[Firebird]

The only thin that I have seen as the "right way" would be access to public things for taxpayers. Even then I have doubt.

To me someone claiming importance of education loses some credibility with a demand to participate in games(at a perceived higher level )as you put it.



Nope. What I see are schools like Cornerstone continuing to petition and sue and eventually the lines will be less and less for admission and rogue schools will develop. Maybe it's Covenant Christian or Faith in Grapevine that hires Dodge when he gets canned in Denton. Do you think there are several families that might get there kids out of SL to go there? Then an RJ WAshington from Colleyville, and HEB isn't far away.

(please note I used Covenant and Faith as examples only)

By "right way" I meant allowing them a chance to compete without violating rules.

And again, you are ignoring that the "demand" only arose after the door was slammed on the Jesuits' face at every league they tried to enter.

Sorry, but the arguments that simply because a school is private they shouldn't be allowed to play in a league funded with public money is nonsense. They aren't causing the league to incur any extra expenses and in fact are net contributors, because the parents essentially pay membership fees twice-- once via property taxes for the public school they would be going to (which then pays dues to the UIL) and a second time through the private school membership fees which come out of tuition. They aren't asking to use public school facilities (except when they are a visiting team) or funds dedicated to public schools to finance their programs. They're agreeing to abide by more stringent regulations. All they are asking for is the right to play.

The arguments against allowing them in boil down to unproven allegations over recruiting (a practice that happens already at public schools) and simple class hate over the fact that the parents of those kids for whatever reason think a private school is a better choice for their family. Both are overridden by the simple fact that the UIL is funded with taxpayer dollars and thus all taxpayer should have equal access. As I've said before, if the public schools don't like it, then the UIL should either refuse public school funding or allow people without kids in the public system to not fund the system.

The class warfare arguments go both ways. You are happy to take these people's money and use it to fund your league, but not willing to let them play in it.

[pied]

Cornerstone has no grounds to stand on in its law suit to my knowledge. THey had a league to play in and were kicked out due to rules violations. I believe that right there is enough to not be granted admission into the UIL.
You make an interesting point about Dodge winding up at Faith or Covenenat but whos to say he takes the job, whos to say they can afford him, whos to say the kids follow?
Mike Johnston left Katy and went to Houston Christian and I dont recall them winning a state title in football during his tenure there.

Houston Christian wasn't in the UIL.

I think there are many parents who would prefer or are indifferent of private over public, but choose public because that is where the better coaching and competition is(perceived or real).

[Canes0177]

If you put a kid in private school because they will get a better education, more discipline and better all round experience why is there a need for athletics? I thought a better education was the prime directive for a private school. Why do those in private schools have the need to leave the public schools EXCEPT for sports? They need a league of their own where maybe the private vs public sports programs would be allowed to compete during the public schools' non-District season.

There's some sound logic. If you're interested in a good education you shouldn't at all be interested in athletic competition.

LOL.

[farmerfan]

Houston Christian wasn't in the UIL.

I think there are many parents who would prefer or are indifferent of private over public, but choose public because that is where the better coaching and competition is(perceived or real).

So in your example, if Covenant or Faith were to land Dodge then they would petition to be in the UIL?
I guess I ask because before Johnston arrived at HC they were in TAPPS and stayed in TAPPS upon his arrival and he has success at a level just below what Dodge has had.

[pied]

So in your example, if Covenant or Faith were to land Dodge then they would petition to be in the UIL?
I guess I ask because before Johnston arrived at HC they were in TAPPS and stayed in TAPPS upon his arrival and he has success at a level just below what Dodge has had.


Nope, I am suggesting that there will be more privates in the UIL. At some point I have little doubt that some will make a big hire, and a parent of some struggling kid, will think that is the best place for them. See Michael Irvin.

I think that the schools will petitionto be in the UIL prior to them hiring a high profile coach.

[Firebird]

Nope, I am suggesting that there will be more privates in the UIL. At some point I have little doubt that some will make a big hire, and a parent of some struggling kid, will think that is the best place for them. See Michael Irvin.

I think that the schools will petitionto be in the UIL prior to them hiring a high profile coach.

So parents of struggling kids never move them to other public schools? And they will be willing to see their superstar miss a year of varsity athletics?

[pied]

So parents of struggling kids never move them to other public schools? And they will be willing to see their superstar miss a year of varsity athletics?

Yes and maybe.

Ask the California guys who Sponge Bob is.

[GoOwls]

This statement would be better used had I quoted one of your previous statements, but I am too lazy to do so and elected to quote this one instead.
You make a comment about HP parents not sending their kids to private schools, but who's to say that schools like Jesuit, ESD, Greenhill and St Marks are not infiltrated with HP or University Park kids already?

Undoubtedly they are infiltrated by them already, but probably, no offense intended, by the nerds.

The jocks will chose to stay at HP for the promise of success and a chance at state titles every year...the ones who realize they will never start at HP will go to the privates......it will take time for Jesuit to build enough of a history to convince HP studs to go there for the athletics.

[Firebird]

Undoubtedly they are infiltrated by them already, but probably, no offense intended, by the nerds.

The jocks will chose to stay at HP for the promise of success and a chance at state titles every year...the ones who realize they will never start at HP will go to the privates......it will take time for Jesuit to build enough of a history to convince HP studs to go there for the athletics.

How does HP do in academic UIL vs. Dallas Jesuit?

[GoOwls]

I understand your argument and agree with it a lot in regards to sending kids to private schools but wanting to somehow compete with publics. Yes it is a double standard. Where I have a problem is with your words, you are putting a label on parents and kids of private school that is uninformed and stupid. You are soundling like a liberal in that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist by saying anybody who goes to private school is a elite snob who wants to be sheltered. That is simply not the case and you shoud be ashamed of yourself for even thinking that wayl.

Perception is reality.

I see the kids on my business route who's parents send them to privates and see how they act and react to others.....I see how the parents react to me and others....it's a generalization....I'm sure there are plenty of fine people with kids in private school.....I think that the parents and administrators who press for the type of stuff we are talking about here are the type of people I'm generalizing about.

[pied]

Posted on the other thread. To GoOwls point:

Kenny Cooper played at Jesuit before going to Manchester United and now FC Dallas. He set the standard.

"(Cooper) definitely set a standard and that's when all the good players starting showing up at Jesuit, I think, to follow in his footsteps," says Trey Rayfield, a junior.

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090331_ac_jesuit.8c2a4816.html

[GoOwls]

How does HP do in academic UIL vs. Dallas Jesuit?

Who knows, but on the field, it almost a HP slam....I mean...really....:o

Again, perception is reality.

[gunnyman]

Trust me, no one at jesuit is crying about unfair things. I wasn't trying to, but perhaps I came across that way. My point was that Jesuit does not have some advantage when it comes to football; rather, they have some disadvantages. Does the coach at your school make less than $80,00? Does he teach in the classroom? Do you have 12 to 13 coaches coaching grades 9-12? Do you have feeder schools that run the same offense and defense and who assist the varsity coaches? Also, I am 100% there are some public school student-athletes taking demanding classes and getting great educations. I'm friends with many of them. But, I also know there are public school athletes not getting much of anything in the classroom. No one at Jesuit takes a weaker course load because they can't. I know public schools have to teach to all levels. Jesuit doesn't, and every football player is doing more than most. I know this because of the many friends we have who have sent there kids to public and private schools. As for financial aid, it is no different at Jesuit than it is at any college. You apply, they look at your income, and they determine what you can afford to pay. Everyone pays something. It isn't based on athletic ability, and you'll just have to trust me on that. I'm not an expert, but some of my dear friends are when it comes to Jesuit Prep. Jesuit has done just fine in football. This past season was tough, but an average Jesuit team played Allen, Wylie, Plano, Plano West, Hebron, and Coppell. Not too many UIL public schools would have done much better. Allen & Wylie proved that, and all of those other schools made the playoffs. Jesuit, which beat Plano East & McKinney Boyd, came one game (Plano West) from making the playoffs, and I though P West was the better team that night.

Hey Ranger Fan,

Answer these questions:

How much finaincial aid does Jesuit give out each year?

How many "part time coaches" does Jesuit have?

Does the athletic director of Jesuit own sport plexes where youth teams play wearing Jesuit tshirts in basketball and other sports? How is that not a conflict of interest.

Are you sure that Jesuit takes only the "smartest kids" or do alumni, wealthy families , good athletes get moved up the list of acceptances.
Are you sure that no one at Jesuit takes a weaker load?

From how many different zip codes does Jesuit students come from.

You make some good points but forgive me if I don't cry just yet

[Jacob McCandles]

just to add a little fuel to the fire ... the issue is back before the Leg.

http://www.kristv.com/global/story.asp?s=10077660


AUSTIN, Texas -- After years of being defeated in courtrooms and the state Capitol, some Texas private schools are still trying to get into the league for public school sports and academic competition.


A bill before the Texas Senate would force the University Interscholastic League to accept private schools for district play, but a new twist is that it would create separate championships.

What hasn't changed is the fierce opposition from public schools. They argue private schools recruit a select student body and would not be subject to state laws such as "no-pass, no play" academic requirements.

If allowed in, private schools would be subject to steroid testing, which covers athletes participating in leagues sanctioned by the UIL.

Sen. Dan Patrick, a Republican from Houston, is sponsoring the bill. He says families who pay property taxes that support public schools should be allowed to compete not only in sports, but the UIL's prestigious academic competitions as well.

"To me, this is all about fairness," Patrick said Thursday before a hearing on the bill in the Senate Education Committee. The panel left the bill pending without a vote.

Several similar bills in recent years have been defeated and legal challenges have failed. A few years ago, the UIL allowed two large Jesuit schools in Dallas and Houston to join when their private school association deemed them too large to play against many small private schools.

Public schools now worry that expanding the pool could tilt the field of competition toward private schools that can be more selective in their student body, whether it be athletics or academics.

"Private schools must recruit to exist," said D.W. Rutledge, executive director of the Texas High School Coaches Association, which has about 20,000 members.

Strake Jesuit in Houston, which was allowed to join UIL four years ago, had the top-ranked team in Class 5A boys' basketball last season and reached the state tournament for the first time. The Crusaders lost in the state semifinal. Strake Jesuit officials have said they do not recruit for athletics.

Patrick said the bill would allow the UIL to set rules against recruiting students for athletic purposes. He suggested public schools are scared of competition and compared the exclusion of private schools to segregation.

"This reminds me of all the white schools not wanting to play against black schools," Patrick said. "Heaven forbid!"

Among those supporting the bill at Thursday's hearing was televangelist John Hagee, head of the Cornerstone megachurch in San Antonio and its private school, Cornerstone Christian. The school has spent several years pursuing legislative and legal actions to get into the UIL.

Texas is one of three states with separate athletic championships for public and private schools. The UIL has about 1,300 members. The Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools, or TAPPS, has about 250 members.

UIL officials said only three schools, Cornerstone Christian and the Jesuit schools, have ever asked to join UIL, and predicted many private schools would rather stay in TAPPS.

Bill McGee, head master of the Hill Country Christian School of Austin, said private schools just want the choice to compete in UIL, not just in sports but in other activities such as music and arts competitions. Hill Country Christian School plays football, basketball, baseball and volleyball.

"What we're asking is for the opportunity to have choice to compete," McGee said.

___

The UIL private schools bill is SB1831.

[pied]

From the oddly posted article.

Bill McGee, head master of the Hill Country Christian School of Austin, said private schools just want the choice to compete in UIL, not just in sports but in other activities such as music and arts competitions. Hill Country Christian School plays football, basketball, baseball and volleyball.

"What we're asking is for the opportunity to have choice to compete," McGee said.

So we know that only three have applied but there appears to be more that would like to have the choice. hmmmmm

[GoOwls]

From the oddly posted article.



So we know that only three have applied but there appears to be more that would like to have the choice. hmmmmm

They say if you see one cockroach in your house, there are 500 in the walls you don't see....;)

[RangerFan]

Answers to questions (those I can answer):

1 I don't know how much in financial aid is given each year at Jesuit, but I've been told between 20-25% of the student body receives some FA. I do know FA is determined on financial need only, and every boy getting a tuition break has to work 100 hours a year in a program called Work Grant. My best friend in the 70's was on work grant and fulfilled his obligation working at Jesuit in the summer. Anyone who can get into Jesuit can attend, even if they can't afford the tuition. Not everyone at Jesuit is rich. To me, Highland Park is a private school. Those parents pay millions to live in a school district. Their "tuition: is the cost of their home. If you are spending $50,000 on a Jesuit education and living in a $400,000 home, you are saving money over the parents going to HP for free who spend over a million dollars to live in "the bubble."
2 I don't know how many part time coaches coach at Jesuit. I do know the football team had one PT Freshman Coach last season, and I do know the head coach is trying to hire two part-time coaches for next season. he has to this because it is very hard to get a football coach/teacher hired at Jesuit, another disadvantage for the sports programs.
3 I don't know Jesuit's Athletic DirectorD. I do know he is an investor in a sports complex in Richardson. I don't know if they have kids running around wearing Jesuit shirts in this complex. I wear my old ratty Jesuit tee shirts all the time, but I don't consider that recruiting.
4 Jesuit's admisiions is based on 7th and 8th grades, a test all 8th graders must take, and rec's from teachers. Jesuit does admit to trying to admit as many deserving legacies (son or brother of a jesuit student or grad), Catholics, students attending parochial schools, and minorities. In my opinion, most of the minorities Jesuit lets in are more academic types than athletic types, very much the same as the white kids being admitted.
5 There are no slow tracks, remedial classes, or other types of softer courses offered at Jesuit. Whether you are taking all AP/Honors classes or the regular classes offered, they are all very demanding. Now, some teachers are easier than others, but every kid is being pushed in college prep type classes.
6 No clue about zip codes. Over 80% of Jesuit's student body comes from one of the many parochial schools in Dallas. Some of these are far away from Jesuit. I am 100% certain Jesuit has more zip codes than any public school, but I don't think this is an advantage unless Jesuit is recruiting athletes.
7 No on needs to cry for Jesuit. Jesuit is very happy to be part of a great league. They will continue to everythign they can to be a good member in the UIL, and they will follow UIL rules as well or even better than all other UIL schools.

FYI: I sent my sons to Jesuit because I went there and loved it, because I believe strongly in a Catholic, Jesuit education, because I found a way to pay for it, and because my public school option was not a strong school. I could have moved to a suburb and gone to a better suburban school. I could have hoped for the best at WT White, our neighborhood school. But, I thought Jesuit was the right choice.

Jesuit's soccer program has been very, very good for many years. Whether TCIL or UIL, the soccer program has always been good. Soccer, in my opinion, is about club, select players who play year round. Most of these kids come from money or are poor enough to get free rides on club teams. The schools that tend to dominate in soccer are wealthier, suburban schools. Jesuit has always had solid soccer programs, and this year's squad is just like the power house teams from the 7-0's, 80's, & 90's.

There are HP parents who send their kids to Jesuit. I bet most are Catholics and believe in the Catholic education. No one should come to jesuit for a sport alone. The school is about a great education, a great chance to grow in one's faith, and about the opportunity to participate in many sports at a high level. Jesuit's best team right now is the soccer team. Our two best athletes are a golfer and a swimmer. Three boys signed to play 1A football. That is a very high number. One is a kicker, and the other two are OL. All three came from parochial schools, and all three paid full tuition for all four years. Another football player will play at Cornell. Two others will walk-on at 1A schools. And, I think one or two others will play at D3 schools. No one was recruited for football or any other sport.

[Fleeman93]

Cornerstone has no grounds to stand on in its law suit to my knowledge. THey had a league to play in and were kicked out due to rules violations. I believe that right there is enough to not be granted admission into the UIL.
You make an interesting point about Dodge winding up at Faith or Covenenat but whos to say he takes the job, whos to say they can afford him, whos to say the kids follow?
Mike Johnston left Katy and went to Houston Christian and I dont recall them winning a state title in football during his tenure there.


Does this mean the UIL will have the right to kick out the jesuits IF they have rules violations?

[Fleeman93]

"Private schools must recruit to exist," said D.W. Rutledge, executive director of the Texas High School Coaches Association, which has about 20,000 members.


Interesting to me that a very well respected coach in the state of Texas has the OPINION listed above. I know of another very well respected coach in Texas that has said he KNOWS the privates will recruite for athletic purposes sooner or later.

[farmerfan]

Does this mean the UIL will have the right to kick out the jesuits IF they have rules violations?

I think they very well could be.

[farmerfan]

"Private schools must recruit to exist," said D.W. Rutledge, executive director of the Texas High School Coaches Association, which has about 20,000 members.


Interesting to me that a very well respected coach in the state of Texas has the OPINION listed above. I know of another very well respected coach in Texas that has said he KNOWS the privates will recruite for athletic purposes sooner or later.

Whats funny to me is that is the exact coach that pulled some strings of sorts to land one of the better running backs to play in the last 20 years in Jarod Douglas. The hypocrisy there is really too funny.

[farmerfan]

Perception is reality.

I see the kids on my business route who's parents send them to privates and see how they act and react to others.....I see how the parents react to me and others....it's a generalization....I'm sure there are plenty of fine people with kids in private school.....I think that the parents and administrators who press for the type of stuff we are talking about here are the type of people I'm generalizing about.

So you're labeling all private school kids and parents that way :rolleyes:

It seems to me that you have a problem with class warfare or something. As I said, go walk the halls of schools like Liberty Christian, Garland Christian, Dallas Christian, First Baptist Academy, Nolan Catholic and more and you will find that there are far more who come from middle class to lower middle class families that attend school there. I guess my perception is reality then since the private school I went too had a higher percentage of kids who went to college than the public school I did.
Wait college is bad too I guess.

[Fleeman93]

I think they very well could be.


Fair enough, that is all I would request. The right to kick the jesuits out of a league they screwed their way into if they screw said league is all I can ask for. Honestly I am not even saying kick them out of the league but just ban them from all post season play for say 4 years.

[Fleeman93]

Whats funny to me is that is the exact coach that pulled some strings of sorts to land one of the better running backs to play in the last 20 years in Jarod Douglas. The hypocrisy there is really too funny.

I honestly don't know what happened with that situation but if something illegal occured then he and his team should have been penalized.

[svhorns]

I honestly don't know what happened with that situation but if something illegal occured then he and his team should have been penalized.
From what I read... He lived in Kirby which is part of Judson ISD. Some allegations were brought forward... nothing ever happened. There are some rumblings about Aaron Green and where he lives or lived going on... but it's pretty far fetched. Whenever a RB like Green or Douglas come around it seems to raise some eyebrows... I just think Madison and Judson have a pretty heated rivalry.

[Fleeman93]

I think they very well could be.

Again, that is all I am asking for. How about this, first violation for a private they lose the right to compete in post season play for all sports for 1 year, second violation is a 4 year ban in all sports, and the third violation is the curb treatment???

[Fleeman93]

From what I read... He lived in Kirby which is part of Judson ISD. Some allegations were brought forward... nothing ever happened. There are some rumblings about Aaron Green and where he lives or lived going on... but it's pretty far fetched. Whenever a RB like Green or Douglas come around it seems to raise some eyebrows... I just think Madison and Judson have a pretty heated rivalry.

So you are closer to the situation and seem to believe nothing happened and Farmer is implying something did. Interesting.

[farmerfan]

From what I read... He lived in Kirby which is part of Judson ISD. Some allegations were brought forward... nothing ever happened. There are some rumblings about Aaron Green and where he lives or lived going on... but it's pretty far fetched. Whenever a RB like Green or Douglas come around it seems to raise some eyebrows... I just think Madison and Judson have a pretty heated rivalry.

I heard, this coming from a Judson grad in 91 who was a JV coach at the school I went to that Douglas came over to Judson either freshman or sophomore year and his mother had a job in the Judson ISD, after his graduation she was employed elsewhere. I was also told that DW was not saint in those regards in other players and what not, this is purely second hand information and obviously have nothing to back it up with, buit like the privates, all we have is guesses in this situation. I know I have seen others on this board and elsewhere who have implied similar in regards to Judson and Douglas.

[farmerfan]

So you are closer to the situation and seem to believe nothing happened and Farmer is implying something did. Interesting.

I am going on what I have read and heard and I do believe that SV is doing the same. He lived nowhere near SV or SA when the whold Douglas thing happend.

[farmerfan]

Again, that is all I am asking for. How about this, first violation for a private they lose the right to compete in post season play for all sports for 1 year, second violation is a 4 year ban in all sports, and the third violation is the curb treatment???

I say dont even give them 3 chances. They know the rules and the consequences with both, they know they operate differently than public schools so I say first time offense then kick their *** out.

[vtwinwilly]

Again, that is all I am asking for. How about this, first violation for a private they lose the right to compete in post season play for all sports for 1 year, second violation is a 4 year ban in all sports, and the third violation is the curb treatment???
Mr. Fleeman93, you and I have disagreed on a lot, but I think we've found a point we can agree on.

What you propose seems fair to me.;)

[Fleeman93]

I am going on what I have read and heard and I do believe that SV is doing the same. He lived nowhere near SV or SA when the whold Douglas thing happend.

I respect that.

[Fleeman93]

I say dont even give them 3 chances. They know the rules and the consequences with both, they know they operate differently than public schools so I say first time offense then kick their *** out.

Sold. I will take one program for each of the jesuits please.

[Fleeman93]

Mr. Fleeman93, you and I have disagreed on a lot, but I think we've found a point we can agree on.

What you propose seems fair to me.;)

I take it all back. Farmer has a better plan that makes more sense.

[ftballin11]

Cornerstone has no grounds to stand on in its law suit to my knowledge. THey had a league to play in and were kicked out due to rules violations. I believe that right there is enough to not be granted admission into the UIL.
You make an interesting point about Dodge winding up at Faith or Covenenat but whos to say he takes the job, whos to say they can afford him, whos to say the kids follow?
Mike Johnston left Katy and went to Houston Christian and I dont recall them winning a state title in football during his tenure there.


It took him 15 years at Katy.

[BlackAttack]

I think there is some confusion about what would constitute recruiting. If a kid's parents move into another school's district for whatever reason, so what? That's their business, whether it be a public or private school. The problem I have is the fact that the privates can offer financial aid. Eliminate scholarships and I have no problems with the private schools competing in the UIL.

[SWMHebron]

I was at a drill team fund raiser this year. It was in the HS cafeteria. I bid on and won 2 silent auction items. I way overbid. Mine has graduated so silent auctions are actually less expensive than writing all those checks to the drill team, and paying food and lodging to go to contests and I didn't have to do any fundraising. I bid less than $200 total. I was a Big Shot.

One of the dads had been invited to a Jesuit fundraiser where 2 people bid $25,000 each to have dinner with some Jesuit higher up. And they got wine.

[Firebird]

I was at a drill team fund raiser this year. It was in the HS cafeteria. I bid on and won 2 silent auction items. I way overbid. Mine has graduated so silent auctions are actually less expensive than writing all those checks to the drill team, and paying food and lodging to go to contests and I didn't have to do any fundraising. I bid less than $200 total. I was a Big Shot.

One of the dads had been invited to a Jesuit fundraiser where 2 people bid $25,000 each to have dinner with some Jesuit higher up. And they got wine.

This means they must be cheating!!!!!!

In all seriousness, this is relevant how? There are quite a few public schools crammed full of rich people that will pay through the nose for activities.

[farmerfan]

It took him 15 years at Katy.

Okay.
I'm not sure I am following you ehre but to each his own.
Pied made a point about Dodge and I counter acted his with the Johnston case at HC. It took Dodge around 10 years as a coach to win a title.

[SWMHebron]

This means they must be cheating!!!!!!

In all seriousness, this is relevant how? There are quite a few public schools crammed full of rich people that will pay through the nose for activities.

<$200.

$25,000 x 2

That doesn't indicate cheating and wasn't meant to. It does show the difference between those in public and private.

[Firebird]

<$200.

$25,000 x 2

That doesn't indicate cheating and wasn't meant to. It does show the difference between those in public and private.

I think that at least as large a difference exists between Highland Park and Rio Grande City. I want HP kicked out of the UIL because we just can't compete with that sort of money and support.

[Firebird]

I was at a drill team fund raiser this year. It was in the HS cafeteria. I bid on and won 2 silent auction items. I way overbid. Mine has graduated so silent auctions are actually less expensive than writing all those checks to the drill team, and paying food and lodging to go to contests and I didn't have to do any fundraising. I bid less than $200 total. I was a Big Shot.

One of the dads had been invited to a Jesuit fundraiser where 2 people bid $25,000 each to have dinner with some Jesuit higher up. And they got wine.

By the way, you don't mention if the Jesuit fundraiser was for drill team or a general fundraiser. Because the Jesuits actually undercharge everyone for their education and offer substantial need based aid. The type of fundraiser you are talking about could very well have been their annual drive to raise operating funds for the entire school for the next year. You have to do things like that when you don't raise funds via threat of jail.

[farmerfan]

<$200.

$25,000 x 2

That doesn't indicate cheating and wasn't meant to. It does show the difference between those in public and private.

There are some families over in the Wellington, Wichita Creek and Bridlewood areas of Flower Mound that will give a nice sum of money to the boosters of those schools. Go look at the baseball field at FM, a few families were able to donate enough money to fix that place up real nice. I know of stories about Marcus HS too back before FM when those same families from the same areas along with Highland Shores were giving a nice chunk of change to either the booster clubs. Its not just strictly limited to private school families.

[wizenbud]

From what I read... He lived in Kirby which is part of Judson ISD. Some allegations were brought forward... nothing ever happened. There are some rumblings about Aaron Green and where he lives or lived going on... but it's pretty far fetched. Whenever a RB like Green or Douglas come around it seems to raise some eyebrows... I just think Madison and Judson have a pretty heated rivalry.


Sorry..... you missed this one.

Douglas lived in the SCUCISD.(Schertz,Cibolo,Unversal City) He was living in Schertz and set to goto Schertz Clemens. Then late his 8th grade year, JISD offered his mother a job and help with housing to change schools before his freshman year. Judson was slapped on the wrist and Douglas was not allowed to play Varsity his freshman year. There is a UIL rule named after Douglas.

That happened where my wife went to school. Huge news in Schertz at the time.

[farmerfan]

Sorry..... you missed this one.

Douglas lived in the SCUCISD.(Schertz,Cibolo,Unversal City) He was living in Schertz and set to goto Schertz Clemens. Then late his 8th grade year, JISD offered his mother a job and help with housing to change schools before his freshman year. Judson was slapped on the wrist and Douglas was not allowed to play Varsity his freshman year. There is a UIL rule named after Douglas.

That happened where my wife went to school. Huge news in Schertz at the time.

Thats basicly what I have heard too, like I said, this was from a JV coach at the HS I attended in Denton.
I guess it is pretty ironic that D.W would make the comments he did about the nature of private schools surviving but he benefitted from something that could be seen as recruiting to the outsider with one of the greatest players to ever wear a Rocket uniform. Interesting to say the least if that is what indeed did happen.

[GoOwls]

So you're labeling all private school kids and parents that way :rolleyes:

It seems to me that you have a problem with class warfare or something. As I said, go walk the halls of schools like Liberty Christian, Garland Christian, Dallas Christian, First Baptist Academy, Nolan Catholic and more and you will find that there are far more who come from middle class to lower middle class families that attend school there. I guess my perception is reality then since the private school I went too had a higher percentage of kids who went to college than the public school I did.
Wait college is bad too I guess.

Garland Christian is cheap-o, by comparison.....we even had our g-daughter in there for pre-K, but it just got too expensive, even for us, and with the added fees for daycare after school since we both work to even have the chance to send her there, it was running us $600 a month, not counting gas, lunches, and missed overtime due to a very strict pick-up time from their daycare.

Farmer, we weren't talking about the smaller privates....we were talking about the Jesuits of the world....the "destination" private schools of the wealthy....you should know me better than that.

I know many people, middle class people, who have their kids in the smaller private schools...and they make sever sacrifices for it.....but those people and those schools aren't what this discussion is about.

I'm talking about the kids on the business route that go to St.Marks and Jesuit....those people have cash, major cash, and the ablity to cater to the desires of the school and the kids' needs......I still don't understand the desire to mingle with the heathens by THIS group...not the Garland Christians of the world.

[farmerfan]

Garland Christian is cheap-o, by comparison.....we even had our g-daughter in there for pre-K, but it just got too expensive, even for us, and with the added fees for daycare after school since we both work to even have the chance to send her there, it was running us $600 a month, not counting gas, lunches, and missed overtime due to a very strict pick-up time from their daycare.

Farmer, we weren't talking about the smaller privates....we were talking about the Jesuits of the world....the "destination" private schools of the wealthy....you should know me better than that.

I know many people, middle class people, who have their kids in the smaller private schools...and they make sever sacrifices for it.....but those people and those schools aren't what this discussion is about.

I'm talking about the kids on the business route that go to St.Marks and Jesuit....those people have cash, major cash, and the ablity to cater to the desires of the school and the kids' needs......I still don't understand the desire to mingle with the heathens by THIS group...not the Garland Christians of the world.

Well their Catholic so by definition of some of our protestant posters on this board, they're already heathens to begin with. They're just looking to continue to battle with their fellow heathen brothers.
For every St Marks though you will have about 10 Garland Christian type of schools.
Liberty Christian is attempting to become top notch. Since I graduated from there in 2000 tuition has risen over 100% to around $12,000 a year. Prestonwood is around the same and in comparison, Jesuit is around there too. You have a few that hit the 20 K mark and those are your St Marks and Greenhills and ESD's but there aren't too many more. In general, most of your catholic schools have average tuition for a private school in this area.

[wizenbud]

Sorry..... you missed this one.

Douglas lived in the SCUCISD.(Schertz,Cibolo,Unversal City) He was living in Schertz and set to goto Schertz Clemens. Then late his 8th grade year, JISD offered his mother a job and help with housing to change schools before his freshman year. Judson was slapped on the wrist and Douglas was not allowed to play Varsity his freshman year. There is a UIL rule named after Douglas.

That happened where my wife went to school. Huge news in Schertz at the time.

I should clarify:

In 1990, a District 26-5A Executive Committee put the Rockets' football program on a one-year probation after finding that Freshman Jerod Douglas had been recruited away from Schertz Clemens. Coach (at the time) Robert Lehnhoff of Clemens also filed with the UIL.

*I believe, though I could be wrong, the rule of sitting out 1 yr after some transfers was nicknamed the "Douglas" rule. But, I haven't been able to find the news report online yet. I'll keep trying though to get the story straight.

[pied]

Posted on the other thread. To GoOwls point:

Kenny Cooper played at Jesuit before going to Manchester United and now FC Dallas. He set the standard.

"(Cooper) definitely set a standard and that's when all the good players starting showing up at Jesuit, I think, to follow in his footsteps," says Trey Rayfield, a junior.

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090331_ac_jesuit.8c2a4816.html


Just bringing this tidbit back to the discussion.

By the way, Jesuit beat Marcus 2-1. bummer

[slcdragonfan]

Answers to questions (those I can answer):

... Anyone who can get into Jesuit can attend ...
....There are no slow tracks, remedial classes, or other types of softer courses offered at Jesuit...


...so you are telling me that the Jesuit schools only educate those who are gifted, talented, etc. If my kid happens to have ADD, autism, Asperger's, etc, tough luck, yes? But of course, since you are private, you can discriminate. or perhaps be discriminating? In fact, because the resources are limited, you HAVE to discriminate, correct? Public schools are required to support their WHOLE population, not the select chosen few. What is the racial balance of the Jesuits by the way?

In other words, privates are claiming victimhood and discrimination because they are not allowed in the UIL, yet BY THEIR VERY NATURE they discriminate. pot, meet kettle.

I just love how everyone is a victim nowadays. (see the article and Dan Patrick comparing the privates to racial inequality:eek: what?) Why not?

[RangerFan]

There are a few private schools in the area that are designed for students who have achieved in academics. Some of these include St. Mark's, Cistercian, Jesuit, Greenhill, and few others. There are also private schools that cater to children with LD's and with ADD. There are a few students with LD's & ADD at Jesuit, but they have been able to overcome any problems they have and are able to take the same courses as everyone else. Unlike public schools and some private schools, who have to teach everyone, some private schools focus on those who are stronger academically.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no poor person attends HP or SL Carroll. No black person attends HP. If you are going to attack Jesuit for discriminating against students who aren't able to handle the demanding course load, be ready to defend those schools that discrimate by their location alone.

Jesuit is not a perfect school. No school is. They are what they say they are. If having all smart kids gives them an unfair advantage in football, then that is not fair. If having kids from lots of zip codes and having kids receiving some financial aid (remember, public schools are free and all taxpapers pay for public schools) gives Jesuit an unfair advantage, then I guess I'm wrong.

The folks and schools that complain the most about Jesuit and recruiting and cheating are, in my opinion, the folks who are at schools that either have or who still cheat and recruit. I am thankful the UIL let Jesuit into their league. I know they didn't want to. But, I don't think Dallas jesuit will ever cause a problem or break a rule. I hope I'm right.

[JagFan]

If the Private schools have to follow the same rules that the public schools do then why is there a problem.

At Flower Mound Nick Stephens move from one neighborhood to another (Marcus to FM) and had to play JV his Junior year because of the transfer rules. Same with Jacob Morris. He had to play JV football and baseball at Coppell his Junior year because of transfer rules. Morris' parents appealed as far as they could and the UIL did not budge on it's stance of this rule.

It seems to me that the UIL is very proactive on this kind of thing in regards to recruiting and transfers. I really don't see why there is such an uproar.

[Firebird]

...so you are telling me that the Jesuit schools only educate those who are gifted, talented, etc. If my kid happens to have ADD, autism, Asperger's, etc, tough luck, yes? But of course, since you are private, you can discriminate. or perhaps be discriminating? In fact, because the resources are limited, you HAVE to discriminate, correct? Public schools are required to support their WHOLE population, not the select chosen few. What is the racial balance of the Jesuits by the way?

In other words, privates are claiming victimhood and discrimination because they are not allowed in the UIL, yet BY THEIR VERY NATURE they discriminate. pot, meet kettle.

I just love how everyone is a victim nowadays. (see the article and Dan Patrick comparing the privates to racial inequality:eek: what?) Why not?


Strake is 39% minority and Dallas is 26%. They do not give ethnic breakdowns. Regardless, seems to me that the lunchroom at either place is much more diverse ethnically than at a place like Southlake or HP.......;)

With regards to remedial or soft courses, I would argue that there exist magnet public schools in many, many districts across the state that do not serve children who need remedial education. So there are public schools that do not serve "everyone." I cannot see how that would affect the competitive balance on the athletic field. In fact, it might hurt, as there are probably lots of very good student athletes that are enrolled in less strenous degree programs who would be unable to make the cut at Jesuit.

[Firebird]

I must say, however, that I am probably very biased in this debate as I believe that parents should be able to transfer their children to any school within their district for whatever reason without any sort of penalty. I also believe they should be able to transfer them out of district without penalty, but with a few added steps to ensure that the funding for their child is propertly redirected from their home district to their district of choice. The school system badly needs more competition, especially for good students, not less.

[pied]

I must say, however, that I am probably very biased in this debate as I believe that parents should be able to transfer their children to any school within their district for whatever reason without any sort of penalty. I also believe they should be able to transfer them out of district without penalty, but with a few added steps to ensure that the funding for their child is propertly redirected from their home district to their district of choice. The school system badly needs more competition, especially for good students, not less.

I am biased. I send my kid to private school and don't see a compelling reason to have privaet schools in the UIL.

I also think there are many families that keep their kids in public schools because of the extra curricular options, and think football is a big one. How do you think that having fewer kids, whose parents are involved might be good for the benefit of the public schools?

[JagFan]

I must say, however, that I am probably very biased in this debate as I believe that parents should be able to transfer their children to any school within their district for whatever reason without any sort of penalty. I also believe they should be able to transfer them out of district without penalty, but with a few added steps to ensure that the funding for their child is propertly redirected from their home district to their district of choice. The school system badly needs more competition, especially for good students, not less.

I agree with you in theory. The rules of transfers in the athletic area came about because of need. I was told that without the transfer rules coaches would be recruiting and that is not good. I would like to think I could move for whatever reason I wanted and my child not be penalized. If you can prove the move was not for athletic reasons then it will not affect them. If the move is determined to be for athletic reasons then they must sit out of varsity play for a year. Right or wrong those are the rules and if all schools in the UIL play by them then there should be no problems.

[Firebird]

I agree with you in theory. The rules of transfers in the athletic area came about because of need. I was told that without the transfer rules coaches would be recruiting and that is not good. I would like to think I could move for whatever reason I wanted and my child not be penalized. If you can prove the move was not for athletic reasons then it will not affect them. If the move is determined to be for athletic reasons then they must sit out of varsity play for a year. Right or wrong those are the rules and if all schools in the UIL play by them then there should be no problems.

It doesn't bother me if it is for athletic reasons. Parents should be able to factor in everything a school offers in deciding which is best for their kids. Recruiting would happen. Everyone would be able to do it. The losers would simply need to get better.

I also think that parents shouldn't have to move to transfer into a same district school, at the very least. Attendance zones arbitrarily lock people into certain schools and are often drawn with an eye towards the political. Your tax dollars support all the schools in a district, you should be able to choose which of 'em you want to attend. The ones that are in high demand and get bigger should get more funds channeled to them as a reward for doing well.

[slcdragonfan]

There are a few private schools in the area that are designed for students who have achieved in academics. Some of these include St. Mark's, Cistercian, Jesuit, Greenhill, and few others. There are also private schools that cater to children with LD's and with ADD. There are a few students with LD's & ADD at Jesuit, but they have been able to overcome any problems they have and are able to take the same courses as everyone else. Unlike public schools and some private schools, who have to teach everyone, some private schools focus on those who are stronger academically.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no poor person attends HP or SL Carroll. No black person attends HP. If you are going to attack Jesuit for discriminating against students who aren't able to handle the demanding course load, be ready to defend those schools that discrimate by their location alone.

Jesuit is not a perfect school. No school is. They are what they say they are. If having all smart kids gives them an unfair advantage in football, then that is not fair. If having kids from lots of zip codes and having kids receiving some financial aid (remember, public schools are free and all taxpapers pay for public schools) gives Jesuit an unfair advantage, then I guess I'm wrong.

The folks and schools that complain the most about Jesuit and recruiting and cheating are, in my opinion, the folks who are at schools that either have or who still cheat and recruit. I am thankful the UIL let Jesuit into their league. I know they didn't want to. But, I don't think Dallas jesuit will ever cause a problem or break a rule. I hope I'm right.

Define poor? In fact, you are wrong. Have you ever been to Southlake? It started as a quiet rural community and still retains that in some areas, albeit getting more limited each day. Not every house in this area is expensive. But we don't have apartments, so I guess we do discriminate against apartment-dwellers.

I am discriminated against as a Norwegian-American in that I am not able to qualify for the 8A program to get contracts with the Federal government without the formal bid process. I guess I can now claim victimhood as well, hooray!

I personally don't give a hoot one way or the other regarding the Jesuits themselves, My point is, Dan Patrick is claiming discrimination and victimhood for the poor alienated private schools. That is incredible. What's next?

Somehow, an elite group of select kids has found a way to be a 'faction' and discriminated against.

[owlfan 1]

So you're labeling all private school kids and parents that way :rolleyes:

It seems to me that you have a problem with class warfare or something. As I said, go walk the halls of schools like Liberty Christian, Garland Christian, Dallas Christian, First Baptist Academy, Nolan Catholic and more and you will find that there are far more who come from middle class to lower middle class families that attend school there. I guess my perception is reality then since the private school I went too had a higher percentage of kids who went to college than the public school I did.
Wait college is bad too I guess.

Far be it from me to debate the greatness of GoOwls, but on this, my friend is a little off base. I am a youth minister in Garland, and have been for the past 18 years. During that time I have worked with kids who attended Dallas Christian, Rockwall Heritage, Garland Christian, First Baptist Academy, Richardson Canyon Creek, and others. Please trust me when I say these were kids from families who were definitely middle class. These families made sacrifices to send their kids to these schools. In a couple of cases, they were single parent households. If you go to most private Christian schools in the DFW area (with notable exceptions) you will find that students span the spectrum of economic ranges. It cannot be argued that people with greater resources can send their students to private schools more easily, but all private school kids are not from privileged families...

[slcdragonfan]

It doesn't bother me if it is for athletic reasons. Parents should be able to factor in everything a school offers in deciding which is best for their kids. Recruiting would happen. Everyone would be able to do it. The losers would simply need to get better.

I also think that parents shouldn't have to move to transfer into a same district school, at the very least. Attendance zones arbitrarily lock people into certain schools and are often drawn with an eye towards the political. Your tax dollars support all the schools in a district, you should be able to choose which of 'em you want to attend. The ones that are in high demand and get bigger should get more funds channeled to them as a reward for doing well.

But then, wouldn't the 'losers' be discriminated against? :rolleyes: Don't the folks who don't have the 'opportunity' to move their kids, or send them to a private school, or they aren't 'gifted' enough to go to a magnet school, or there is no transportation to the 'better' school, get discriminated against?

Here is my point, stated clearly: I resent the privates using 'discrimination' as a weapon to get what they want. I just don't see it.

[BlackAttack]

Far be it from me to debate the greatness of GoOwls, but on this, my friend is a little off base. I am a youth minister in Garland, and have been for the past 18 years. During that time I have worked with kids who attended Dallas Christian, Rockwall Heritage, Garland Christian, First Baptist Academy, Richardson Canyon Creek, and others. Please trust me when I say these were kids from families who were definitely middle class. These families made sacrifices to send their kids to these schools. In a couple of cases, they were single parent households. If you go to most private Christian schools in the DFW area (with notable exceptions) you will find that students span the spectrum of economic ranges. It cannot be argued that people with greater resources can send their students to private schools more easily, but all private school kids are not from privileged families...


That's fine and dandy, and I applaud the parent's efforts. What does this have to do with them playing in the UIL? Absolutely nothing.

[JagFan]

It doesn't bother me if it is for athletic reasons. Parents should be able to factor in everything a school offers in deciding which is best for their kids. Recruiting would happen. Everyone would be able to do it. The losers would simply need to get better.

I also think that parents shouldn't have to move to transfer into a same district school, at the very least. Attendance zones arbitrarily lock people into certain schools and are often drawn with an eye towards the political in mind. Your tax dollars support all the schools in a district, you should be able to choose which of 'em you want to attend. The ones that are in high demand and get bigger should get more funds channeled to them as a reward for doing well.

I agree but unfortunately the rules were needed. If I remember correctly recruiting was getting out of hand and causing all sorts of problems. So the UIL put in the rules. I felt for Jacob Morris in that he is a tremendous athlete that started as a sophomore in both football and baseball. He had to step down to JV his Junior year at Coppell. He is now a senior that has committed to Arizona State to play baseball. He did not play football this year. As far as Nick Stephens he went on to start as a Senior and is now playing for Tennessee.

I understand the need for the rules but I do not like them. My main point is that if all the schools follow the same rules then the privates should be allowed to compete.

[pied]

I agree but unfortunately the rules were needed. If I remember correctly recruiting was getting out of hand and causing all sorts of problems. So the UIL put in the rules. I felt for Jacob Morris in that he is a tremendous athlete that started as a sophomore in both football and baseball. He had to step down to JV his Junior year at Coppell. He is now a senior that has committed to Arizona State to play baseball. He did not play football this year. As far as Nick Stephens he went on to start as a Senior and is now playing for Tennessee.

I understand the need for the rules but I do not like them. My main point is that if all the schools follow the same rules then the privates should be allowed to compete.


Straight up screw job by the LISD netwok on that one.

[JagFan]

Straight up screw job by the LISD netwok on that one.

Which one or both? There are all sorts of rumors that flew around about Morris. The person punished was the child. He had to play JV, his life long friends here in FM criticized him and felt he let them down. It was a bad situation all the way around. Lots of emotions. I know the family and I don't know all of story but I do know that it was Jacob that paid the price. Sad really. As far as Stephens, he ended up OK.

Parents should be able to move where they want and when they want without penalty for their child. On the other hand I do understand the rule.

[pied]

Which one or both? There are all sorts of rumors that flew around about Morris. The person punished was the child. He had to play JV, his life long friends here in FM criticized him and felt he let them down. It was a bad situation all the way around. Lots of emotions. I know the family and I don't know all of story but I do know that it was Jacob that paid the price. Sad really. As far as Stephens, he ended up OK.

Parents should be able to move where they want and when they want without penalty for their child. On the other hand I do understand the rule.

For Morris.

[SWMHebron]

Straight up screw job by the LISD netwok on that one.

While I certainly feel for him the rules were in place and clearly spelled out.

His parents tried to circumvent them and it backfired.

[JagFan]

For Morris.

True. Facts are that his parents are divorced and his Mom and Stepdad bought a house in Coppell and he moved in with them. Dad is still in FM. The UIL determined that the move was for athletic reasons. What was said and proven in the hearings is unknown and only rumors are still heard. Only the parents and Jacob know the truth and they have moved on. Little brother Morris played at FM on JV as a freshman and all is good as far as I know. He is on the O line. Great kid and athlete.

[JagFan]

While I certainly feel for him the rules were in place and clearly spelled out.

His parents tried to circumvent them and it backfired.

Some do say they bought the house in Coppell so Jacob could play baseball for Coppell. I don't know the whole story but the UIL was unmoving in their findings.

[owlfan 1]

That's fine and dandy, and I applaud the parent's efforts. What does this have to do with them playing in the UIL? Absolutely nothing.

No, it doesnt, but my post was in response to another - are you the content police?

For your info, I believe that the system we have is fine. The Jesuits are an exception because of their size and because the private school leagues didnt want them. The rest of the private schools should remain in the Tapps league. I hope the courts keep blocking those who want to move into the UIL from doing so.

[Firebird]

Which one or both? There are all sorts of rumors that flew around about Morris. The person punished was the child. He had to play JV, his life long friends here in FM criticized him and felt he let them down. It was a bad situation all the way around. Lots of emotions. I know the family and I don't know all of story but I do know that it was Jacob that paid the price. Sad really. As far as Stephens, he ended up OK.

Parents should be able to move where they want and when they want without penalty for their child. On the other hand I do understand the rule.

I don't. If after sitting down with a coach and the athlete, the parents believe it is in the best interest of the family to move a student to play sports elsewhere, let them do it. Why not? Because it "isn't fair" to the poor kiddos back at their home school who now might not win? Cry me a river. Let those kids move, too, if they care that much about being on a good sports team.

How is it that we have come to value a "level playing field" over the rights of parents to decide where they think their children will do best.

[pied]

Some do say they bought the house in Coppell so Jacob could play baseball for Coppell. I don't know the whole story but the UIL was unmoving in their findings.

FYI-at the time Flower Mound was #1 in baseball, Coppell #3.

It was not the UIL, but the 6-5A executive board made up of four LISD schools, three Carrollton schools and Coppell. The results were not surprising.

[JagFan]

I don't. If after sitting down with a coach and the athlete, the parents believe it is in the best interest of the family to move a student to play sports elsewhere, let them do it. Why not? Because it "isn't fair" to the poor kiddos back at their home school who now might not win? Cry me a river. Let those kids move, too, if they care that much about being on a good sports team.

How is it that we have come to value a "level playing field" over the rights of parents to decide where they think their children will do best.

The part I understand is that it stops the coaches from going out to find those players. If a family is moving I think the UIL should and do take it on a case by case basis.

It has nothing to do with being fair to kids left behind. If you are referring to Morris friends that was my point in how he suffered, not the friends. I felt for him on that very much.

[JagFan]

FYI-at the time Flower Mound was #1 in baseball, Coppell #3.

It was not the UIL, but the 6-5A executive board made up of four LISD schools, three Carrollton schools and Coppell. The results were not surprising.

The district was the first hearing. His parents took it to Austin twice. Both times the UIL board upheld the districts findings. I am fully aware that FM was #1 at the time. I was stating that that was the rumor, they were not happy with the FM coach and or coaches and wanted to move him.

[pied]

The district was the first hearing. His parents took it to Austin twice. Both times the UIL board upheld the districts findings. I am fully aware that FM was #1 at the time. I was stating that that was the rumor, they were not happy with the FM coach and or coaches and wanted to move him.


Don't know if the UIL would ever over turn an Executive Board's decision.

A soph starting pitcher for a top ranked state team typically wants to transfer because of differences with coaches(please read sarcasm).

[E-Vol-ution]

Loose lips sink ships.....better believe someone produced notarized testimony regarding prior dialogue of the planned move and why with one of the principals.
The district was the first hearing. His parents took it to Austin twice. Both times the UIL board upheld the districts findings. I am fully aware that FM was #1 at the time. I was stating that that was the rumor, they were not happy with the FM coach and or coaches and wanted to move him.

[JagFan]

Don't know if the UIL would ever over turn an Executive Board's decision.

A soph starting pitcher for a top ranked state team typically wants to transfer because of differences with coaches(please read sarcasm).

I could go on and on about the rumors. I do think it is sad that Jacob was the one to suffer. Again the facts are that parents are divorced Mom and step dad bought a house in Coppell dad is still in FM. Jacob was moved in the middle of baseball season. That is all I know for a fact. For whatever reason the district board and the UIL thought it was for athletic reasons. Nobody but the parents and Jacob know the truth and they have moved on. I have heard all the rumors for and against the Morris move. The only thing I do know is that the parents did what they thought best for their child at the time for whatever reason.

Back to my original point is that the UIL takes this rule seriously and if the privates have to follow them too then they should play in the UIL.

[JagFan]

Loose lips sink ships.....better believe someone produced notarized testimony regarding prior dialogue of the planned move and why with one of the principals.

Very well could have. Nobody but the people at the hearings know what was presented. I just felt for the kid.

[GoOwls]

Far be it from me to debate the greatness of GoOwls, but on this, my friend is a little off base. I am a youth minister in Garland, and have been for the past 18 years. During that time I have worked with kids who attended Dallas Christian, Rockwall Heritage, Garland Christian, First Baptist Academy, Richardson Canyon Creek, and others. Please trust me when I say these were kids from families who were definitely middle class. These families made sacrifices to send their kids to these schools. In a couple of cases, they were single parent households. If you go to most private Christian schools in the DFW area (with notable exceptions) you will find that students span the spectrum of economic ranges. It cannot be argued that people with greater resources can send their students to private schools more easily, but all private school kids are not from privileged families...

Hey Owlfan, go back and check post #100 on this thread, I clairified that we tried GCA for our g-daughter and couldn't afford it/schedule transportation. I was referring to the high end, "destination" private schools that cater to the wealthy....not the middle class oriented, "run-of-the-mill" private schools...schools that I have much respect for, in general.

[owlfan 1]

Hey Owlfan, go back and check post #100 on this thread, I clairified that we tried GCA for our g-daughter and couldn't afford it/schedule transportation. I was referring to the high end, "destination" private schools that cater to the wealthy....not the middle class oriented, "run-of-the-mill" private schools...schools that I have much respect for, in general.


saw that - just wanted to make sure we don't paint all private school students with the same broad brush... carry on... :)

[GoOwls]

saw that - just wanted to make sure we don't paint all private school students with the same broad brush... carry on... :)

Nah, the kids at GCA were mostly kids from middle class to high-middle class homes.....parents who had to sacrifice to get their kids in there.....we just had too many bills from raising 6 kids of our own to afford it....didn't see too many Beamers and Escalades sitting in the line to drop off and pick up the kids....;)

[LH fan]

I can't officially speak for Dallas Jesuit's recruiting or not when it pertains to football, but I can say that they won't bend their morals or discipline standards to keep a good athlete in the school. I have first hand knowledge of this as a direct family member of mine, who was the best or second-best football player at the school was booted from Jesuit before his Senior year for disciplinary reasons.

Now, I can say that they recruited the hell out of me and constantly tried to convince me to enroll there to play basketball while my family member was attending Jesuit, but that stopped when he was kicked out. I chose to stay in public school though, because I had more fun playing the schedule of teams that we were playing at the time which included all of the RISD, DISD and Plano teams every year.

[slcdragonfan]

I can't officially speak for Dallas Jesuit's recruiting or not when it pertains to football, but I can say that they won't bend their morals or discipline standards to keep a good athlete in the school. I have first hand knowledge of this as a direct family member of mine, who was the best or second-best football player at the school was booted from Jesuit before his Senior year for disciplinary reasons.

Now, I can say that they recruited the hell out of me and constantly tried to convince me to enroll there to play basketball while my family member was attending Jesuit, but that stopped when he was kicked out. I chose to stay in public school though, because I had more fun playing the schedule of teams that we were playing at the time which included all of the RISD, DISD and Plano teams every year.

Was financial aid involved? Also, if they had been playing those schools, would you have gone there? Why or why not?

[farmerfan]

I am biased. I send my kid to private school and don't see a compelling reason to have privaet schools in the UIL.

I also think there are many families that keep their kids in public schools because of the extra curricular options, and think football is a big one. How do you think that having fewer kids, whose parents are involved might be good for the benefit of the public schools?

I second that.
I attended private school and felt then as I do now that it is better for each to have their own league to participate in. I dont think you will see the TAPPS powers petition to join the UIL but am with your thoughts on if they do what could happen. I come from one of the very best overall schools in TAPPS too and I hope they stay in TAPPS.
Let me add though that during my junior year I had some public school parents from both Marcus, Lewisville and Celina try real hard to get my mom to enroll me in those schools. The parents who did from Marcus and Celina were members of the football booster club and the parent from Celina was a client of my uncle who works and lives in Stonebridge Ranch in McKinney. Just thought I would add that :)

[LH fan]

Was financial aid involved? Also, if they had been playing those schools, would you have gone there? Why or why not?

No, financial aid wouldn't have been involved as we probably wouldn't have qualified for aid on a need basis. My family member didn't qualify, although I don't know how it would have been with 2 of us there.

Secondly, I didn't ever really consider it, because (and I hope this doesn't sound bad, but I am being honest here), I liked playing hoops with black kids and there just weren't any brothers at Jesuit on the bball team. Practice is where you get better, and practicing every day against athletic, tough black kids at LH made me a much better ball player. Because of this, I gained the confidence that I could go into any gym in DFW and show no fear on the court whether I was playing against Plano, SOC or Dunbar. We actually played the kids from Jesuit in a tourney and stomped the hell out of them as they were soft and scared of us from the moment both teams stepped on the court.

And third, Lake Highlands was loaded with really hot, diverse girls of all races. I couldn't possibly give that up. Jesuit is an all-boys private school...that just didn't sound like a good time to me.

[slcdragonfan]

No, financial aid wouldn't have been involved as we probably wouldn't have qualified for aid on a need basis. My family member didn't qualify, although I don't know how it would have been with 2 of us there.

Secondly, I didn't ever really consider it, because (and I hope this doesn't sound bad, but I am being honest here), I liked playing hoops with black kids and there just weren't any brothers at Jesuit on the bball team. Practice is where you get better, and practicing every day against athletic, tough black kids at LH made me a much better ball player. Because of this, I gained the confidence that I could go into any gym in DFW and show no fear on the court whether I was playing against Plano, SOC or Dunbar. We actually played the kids from Jesuit in a tourney and stomped the hell out of them as they were soft and scared of us from the moment both teams stepped on the court.

And third, Lake Highlands was loaded with really hot, diverse girls of all races. I couldn't possibly give that up. Jesuit is an all-boys private school...that just didn't sound like a good time to me.

I like your style. Honest and forthright, just out there with it.

[Canes0177]

We don't have any of those problems at Aquinas. We have plenty of black athletes and plenty of attractive girls.

[farmerfan]

We don't have any of those problems at Aquinas. We have plenty of black athletes and plenty of attractive girls.

There's a such thing as a black catholic? ;):D

[SWMHebron]

I second that.
I attended private school and felt then as I do now that it is better for each to have their own league to participate in. I dont think you will see the TAPPS powers petition to join the UIL but am with your thoughts on if they do what could happen. I come from one of the very best overall schools in TAPPS too and I hope they stay in TAPPS.
Let me add though that during my junior year I had some public school parents from both Marcus, Lewisville and Celina try real hard to get my mom to enroll me in those schools. The parents who did from Marcus and Celina were members of the football booster club and the parent from Celina was a client of my uncle who works and lives in Stonebridge Ranch in McKinney. Just thought I would add that :)

Parents, not coaches or school officials. That doesn't count as official recruiting.

[Firebird]

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin......:rolleyes:

[farmerfan]

Parents, not coaches or school officials. That doesn't count as official recruiting.

Thank you captain obvious for pointing out what I said. Yes I am aware that they were parents and not coaches. However who's to say that the coaches didn't puit the parents up to it, I mean afterall they were in the booster club and had direct contact with the football coaches.
That being said, how many priavte school coaches or school officials are you aware of that have contacted athletes? Why is it that this whole recuting thing just seems to be limited to private schools?

[SWMHebron]

Thank you captain obvious for pointing out what I said. Yes I am aware that they were parents and not coaches. However who's to say that the coaches didn't puit the parents up to it, I mean afterall they were in the booster club and had direct contact with the football coaches.
That being said, how many priavte school coaches or school officials are you aware of that have contacted athletes? Why is it that this whole recuting thing just seems to be limited to private schools?

You're welcome.

I am well aware the coaches may have put the parents up to it, just as I am aware they may not have. I am well aware the potential for recruiting exists in public as well as private settings.

I think privates get the most attention because of the ability to offer financial aid, and the fact that the family doesn't have to move. As has been well discussed with public schools you have to attend the one where you live. If you want to go to a different one you have to move. If you choose to go to a private school it doesn't matter where you live as long as someone can get you there.

[Firebird]

You're welcome.

I am well aware the coaches may have put the parents up to it, just as I am aware they may not have. I am well aware the potential for recruiting exists in public as well as private settings.

I think privates get the most attention because of the ability to offer financial aid, and the fact that the family doesn't have to move. As has been well discussed with public schools you have to attend the one where you live. If you want to go to a different one you have to move. If you choose to go to a private school it doesn't matter where you live as long as someone can get you there.

Funny how that works, considering that thus far only public schools have been slapped for recruiting violations.....

[SWMHebron]

Funny how that works, considering that thus far only public schools have been slapped for recruiting violations.....

I was talking perception, not reality. I know there was some stuff going on a year or so ago with Carrollton Christian and their girls basketball team as far as recruiting accusations. I think they ended up forfeiting several games and their coach got in trouble. Not sure if he ended up suspended or fired.

[pied]

Funny how that works, considering that thus far only public schools have been slapped for recruiting violations.....

Really?

The Carrollton Christian players were declared ineligible Jan. 25 after TAPPS said the school violated an inducement rule prohibiting the arrangement of tuition payment for student-athletes.

The program was placed on probation through the 2008-09 season. Carrollton Christian filed an appeal, and parents of the players called on the Irving branch of the NAACP for assistance. Following TAPPS' denial of the appeal last Monday, the parents contacted attorneys Michael Sorrell and Will Marsaw. They secured a temporary restraining order Wednesday that ruled the players could participate in the playoffs.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/highschools/basketball/stories/021106dnspotapps.14ad37ae.html

[pied]

I was talking perception, not reality. I know there was some stuff going on a year or so ago with Carrollton Christian and their girls basketball team as far as recruiting accusations. I think they ended up forfeiting several games and their coach got in trouble. Not sure if he ended up suspended or fired.

We remembered the same thing. FYI-this was a school that we looked at. Very nice facility for a private school.

[farmerfan]

You're welcome.

I am well aware the coaches may have put the parents up to it, just as I am aware they may not have. I am well aware the potential for recruiting exists in public as well as private settings.

I think privates get the most attention because of the ability to offer financial aid, and the fact that the family doesn't have to move. As has been well discussed with public schools you have to attend the one where you live. If you want to go to a different one you have to move. If you choose to go to a private school it doesn't matter where you live as long as someone can get you there.

Who's to say they didn't though. I mean one of the schools was the same school that got in trouble just a year or two later for the whole Robert Timmons fiasco.
Except you have to sit out a year if that pivate school is in the UIL, the same that public school kids do.

[Firebird]

Really?



http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/highschools/basketball/stories/021106dnspotapps.14ad37ae.html

In UIL. I should have been more clear in the OP.

[pied]

In UIL. I should have been more clear in the OP.

Again, I don't think most of us on here think the schools in the UIL are the potential issue. Probably some think they do, but until proven otherwise I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Now you do have their soccer players stating the good players started to show up after Cooper went through. Not a good statement, and not really certain how else to take it other than face value.

Good soccer players decided to attend Jesuit for athletic reasons.

[SWMHebron]

We remembered the same thing. FYI-this was a school that we looked at. Very nice facility for a private school.

I live in Carrollton and have known several kids that went to CCA. One of them was a good friend of my daughter that went specifically to play basketball. I can't say she was officially recruited by the school, but the basketball program was the main consideration as to where she would go.

[E-Vol-ution]

One of the Mansfield ISD (won't say which one) assistant football coaches told my wife he'd start my son as a sophomore if we sent him there.
I live in Carrollton and have known several kids that went to CCA. One of them was a good friend of my daughter that went specifically to play basketball. I can't say she was officially recruited by the school, but the basketball program was the main consideration as to where she would go.

[JagDad07]

One of the Mansfield ISD (won't say which one) assistant football coaches told my wife he'd start my son as a sophomore if we sent him there.
Give me a freakin' break.

[BlackAttack]

Funny how that works, considering that thus far only public schools have been slapped for recruiting violations.....

Could that be because the vast majority of private schools, in their PRIVATE leagues, allow recruiting? Therefore there is no rule to violate. The two privates in the UIL haven't been in the UIL long enough to make a case study. Just give them time.

[farmerfan]

Could that be because the vast majority of private schools, in their PRIVATE leagues, allow recruiting? Therefore there is no rule to violate. The two privates in the UIL haven't been in the UIL long enough to make a case study. Just give them time.

Wrong.
There is a rule in TAPPS that does not allow this one bit.
See Arlington Grace Prep and former coach Mike Barbers suspension from TAPPS.

[E-Vol-ution]

She laughed at him.
Give me a freakin' break.

[E-Vol-ution]

By the way...you'll recognize him. He's the guy that if you kick off to him will always get past midfield.;)

Give me a freakin' break.

[BlackAttack]

Wrong.
There is a rule in TAPPS that does not allow this one bit.
See Arlington Grace Prep and former coach Mike Barbers suspension from TAPPS.

Private schools don't advertise for students and offer selected students financial aid?

[Magellan]

Man, you're really paranoid about this. Is there any evidence that Jesuit has recruited 22 stud football players and given them all financial aid?

How was the other post "paranoid"? He seemed to just be making a statement.

And there are two sides to the idea that Jesuit recruits:
(1) The kids who are getting aid to help them afford Jesuit aren't going to say anything (don't bite the hand that feeds you).
(2) The schools that miraculously lose their stud 7th and 8th graders that were in their feeder pattern would be raising cain.

Oh yeah, and regarding the comment in the original post about hiring and firing coaches in their feeder pattern, that can only really happen in small districts where the football coach is the district athletic director. Probably 90+% of 5A schools are in districts where there are 2+ HSs (thus, the campus AD isn't running the distict's athletic department). The majority of football coaches would love to have their MS coaches implementing the system from 6th Grade Boys PE, but it's just tough when you have kids going to different HSs.
In other words, there are more situations like Spring (where there are kids zoned from 6 MSs to 3 HS (and a couple of the MSs have land that feeds to all three HS campuses).

[farmerfan]

Private schools don't advertise for students and offer selected students financial aid?

Private schools take ads out that recognize their school but no they do not do it for solely athletic reasons. Its just like cities that use their school district and quality of schools to attract families wanting to move in. Whats the difference there?
As for financial aid it is offered to everybody who applies for it on a need basis. Its not as easy to get as you may think. However I fail to see where financial aid falls into the line of recruiting :confused:

[Canes0177]

Private schools don't advertise for students and offer selected students financial aid?

Financial aid is available to every student and only after they've applied and been accepted.

[NHB06]

Upset Alert: Plano 1 Jesuit 0. Plano goes to state.

[NBC_43]

Upset Alert: Plano 1 Jesuit 0. Plano goes to state.

Heard about that......that's heartbreaking for the boys, especially since it came in penalty kicks. If there was ever a year to go to state, this was it.

[NHB06]

Heard about that......that's heartbreaking for the boys, especially since it came in penalty kicks. If there was ever a year to go to state, this was it.

Both teams were evenly matched. Could have gone either way. Unfortunately, someone's season had to come to an end.

[nomomojo]

Upset Alert: Plano 1 Jesuit 0. Plano goes to state.

What the ? Did you just post something about soccer? I remember you telling me this was a football board and the other sports don't count.

[DrEdward]

What the ? Did you just post something about soccer? I remember you telling me this was a football board and the other sports don't count.

He obviously posted about 5A futbol. :rolleyes:

[gunnyman]

Ha! No, I'm not paranoid... I could really care less as I think the whole thing is funny... They've earned the flak they get, IMO...

I played ball against JES and Bishop Byrne in the 70's and they were just another pre-district school...

But to say recruiting doesn't happen is, well a lie...
Surely you'll admit public school's recruit?

[The Lone Ranger]

Even though this is an old thread, I figured I'd respond to a couple of these and clear up any misconceptions.

How does HP do in academic UIL vs. Dallas Jesuit?
HP competes in 4A, and Jesuit in 5A, so it's very difficult to compare. I do know academic UIL is very, very difficult for Jesuit because they are competing against coed teams, while Jesuit is all boys. This means that Jesuit's 1030 students is at a minimum of a 1000 student smaller athlete pool, and Plano East has about 4500 more student-athletes to choose from.

Academic UIL really isn't emphasized at Jesuit. Kids can choose to to go the meet, and a few do each year, but they aren't really competing for team titles.

Now, I can say that they recruited the hell out of me and constantly tried to convince me to enroll there to play basketball while my family member was attending Jesuit, but that stopped when he was kicked out. I chose to stay in public school though, because I had more fun playing the schedule of teams that we were playing at the time which included all of the RISD, DISD and Plano teams every year.

Who on earth are you referring to as "they?" If "they" refers to students, parents, alumni, or friends of Jesuit, there is nothing against UIL rules about that. Kids can encourage you to go to school at Jesuit if they want to, and the UIL can't stop that.

If you're alleging that a coach or employee recruited you to Jesuit, that's a serious accusation. However, if it occured before 2003, there's still nothing wrong with it as Jesuit wasn't a UIL member. I don't believe for a second for that to be the case, but if it was, it's wasn't against the rules. If the incident you're alleging happend after 2003, and it actually happened, that's a serious problem and something that deserves to be investigated. Even as a Jesuit alumnus, I don't want to see the school recruit--I want to see Jesuit follow the rules and be successful.

I don't know every coach at Jesuit, but I do know that those I do know have the integrity not to violate UIL rules. Those that lack that integrity would soon find themselves jobless.

The bottom line is that Jesuit takes its UIL membership very seriously, and REALLY doesn't want to lose it through any boneheaded moves.

Good soccer players decided to attend Jesuit for athletic reasons.
And there is nothing wrong with that if the coaching staff and administration aren't recruiting them. Success does encourage kids to come to the school, and the strong academics don't hurt at all. However, one thing to keep in mind is that the VAST majority of soccer players, as well as all other athletes, have attended the diocesan school system for grade school. These kids are in Jesuit's natural feeder pattern and almost certainly would have gone to the school even if they'd been bad at soccer.

I can't speak for John Paul and Prestonwood but I can somewhat for Liberty.
JPII and Prestonwood may have some desire to be in the UIL, but it definitely ain't at the 5A level. If you seriously think that either of these schools is itching to compete against PISD schools who are 10 times as large as they are, then you might want to seek counseling. JPII can't even beat TAPPS schools--they aren't that delusional.

[bowiedawgs01]

When my sister was in 8th grade, the coach at a public high school west of Austin (won't name names) asked my parents to move out to his area so she could be on his varsity team. My parents weren't interested and she ended up going to Bowie. But the coach was a very good one and had some good teams back then.

And to be clear, it wasn't Westlake. Fans of the school in question probably don't read this board.

[pied]

And there is nothing wrong with that if the coaching staff and administration aren't recruiting them. Success does encourage kids to come to the school, and the strong academics don't hurt at all. However, one thing to keep in mind is that the VAST majority of soccer players, as well as all other athletes, have attended the diocesan school system for grade school. These kids are in Jesuit's natural feeder pattern and almost certainly would have gone to the school even if they'd been bad at soccer.
.


Actually there is something very wrong with it. It's against the rules.

Eligibility for Athletic Contests


meet all the requirements above,
are less than 19 years old on September 1 preceding the contest or have been granted eligibility based on a disability that delayed their education by at least one year,
live with their parents inside the school district attendance zone their first year of attendance (see your school administrator for exceptions),
have not moved or changed schools for athletic purposes,
were eligible according to the fifteen day rule and the residence rule prior to district certification.


http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/eligibility.html

Seems pretty clear that if students are transferring in because of the success of the soccer program that would be for athletic reasons.

Proving that could be complicated, but it certainly violates the rule. Not certain why you would know about that.

[The Lone Ranger]

Actually there is something very wrong with it. It's against the rules.



http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/eligibility.html

Seems pretty clear that if students are transferring in because of the success of the soccer program that would be for athletic reasons.

Proving that could be complicated, but it certainly violates the rule. Not certain why you would know about that.

Yes, neither of which happens, because the students are not coming to Jesuit just for athletic reasons, first of all, and second of all are not transferring but are entering as freshmen. If, after freshman year, a student transfers solely for the purpose of joining Jesuit's soccer team, that's a violation.

If sports is the primary reason a student comes to Jesuit, that is against UIL rules. I can guarantee you that none of these students come to Jesuit, because if all they are interested in is soccer, they won't meet Jesuit's standards for admission.

Secondly, there are kids who move into public school districts for sports reasons all the time, and they don't get in trouble because they have other reasons. You can't hold Jesuit to a different standard than schools like SLC, who have well-off kids moving into the district to play Dragon football all the time.

[pied]

Yes, neither of which happens, because the students are not coming to Jesuit just for athletic reasons, first of all.

First, that's not what you stated, and you quoted me.


Originally Posted by pied
Good soccer players decided to attend Jesuit for athletic reasons.
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger
And there is nothing wrong with that if the coaching staff and administration aren't recruiting them. Success does encourage kids to come to the school, and the strong academics don't hurt at all. However, one thing to keep in mind is that the VAST majority of soccer players, as well as all other athletes, have attended the diocesan school system for grade school. These kids are in Jesuit's natural feeder pattern and almost certainly would have gone to the school even if they'd been bad at soccer.

and second of all are not transferring but are entering as freshmen. If, after freshman year, a student transfers solely for the purpose of joining Jesuit's soccer team, that's a violation.


You may be correct. Are you stating that all members of the Jesuit soccer team are 4 year students at JC? Could be the case, but I think that there is a gray area. Would a transfer rule apply to someone who stated he chose Jesuit because of athletics, since there is no residence requirement.

Hard to buy the vast majority comment given the comment by the soccer player regarding the way they started coming to Jesuit after Cooper.

Kenny Cooper played at Jesuit before going to Manchester United and now FC Dallas. He set the standard.

"(Cooper) definitely set a standard and that's when all the good players starting showing up at Jesuit, I think, to follow in his footsteps," says Trey Rayfield, a junior.

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090331_ac_jesuit.8c2a4816.html



Secondly, there are kids who move into public school districts for sports reasons all the time, and they don't get in trouble because they have other reasons. You can't hold Jesuit to a different standard than schools like SLC, who have well-off kids moving into the district to play Dragon football all the time.

I think that would be thirdly, but whatever. Another valid point. There is a key difference and a debatable one and that is the issue of residence. It is difficult to prevent cheating and recruiting and one thing that makes it a bit easier is the residency requirement. When you have a school w/none, then you have to judge every case based on intent and that is more difficult to do than to show that you live on a certain street. Not foolproof, but much easier.

[worster70]

Was over @ jesuit last week... are there any plans to renovate Haggar Stadium ? I watched a game there in 1971 and it looks to be untouched since (except for the turf) it looks to be smaller than the DISD Stadiums.

How do the 8-5a Schools get in there ? I am thinking specifically of the Allen Band.