What's the deal with upperclass Suburbia?

[Dragon20]

It seems like all the Great teams now are from upperclass areas in the suburbs i.e. Katy, Smithson Valley, Highland Park, Southlake, Stephenville - not really suburb, but upperclass.

[Dragon20]

Another thing about it is these are mostly predominantly white teams in a time when the black athlete is supposed to rein as king?

[stinger]

This thread should be removed....We do NOT need to discuss anything about class levels. This is football...not a personal class distinction thread.

[Ailani]

It seems like all the Great teams now are from upperclass areas in the suburbs i.e. Katy, Smithson Valley, Highland Park, Southlake, Stephenville - not really suburb, but upperclass.

Hmmm...no offense to Stephenville, but I don't think its exactly in the Highland Park, Katy economic bracket. Unless theres another Stephenville that I don't know about.

[stinger]

Dragon 20...go home, I hear your mother calling. There is no need to have a discussion about class, race, etc

[Sakatha]

Hmmm...no offense to Stephenville, but I don't think its exactly in the Highland Park, Katy economic bracket. Unless theres another Stephenville that I don't know about.

Add Ennis to that too.. And Marshall...

~DnM

p.s. While Marshall did get pwned, they are still a top 5 4A team

[Tut]

Katy High is very diversified. Thought I'd get this in before the thread is closed.

[bullrock]

I don't know where everybody gets the idea that Katy is in the same economic class as SCL and Highland Park. For that matter, there is very few in the HP class. But Katy looks like a very average community to me. Nothing to write home about. I'm sure they have pockets that would rival some of the SLC stuff as I'm positive they have pockets that would rival inner city Houston. But to stereotype Katy as upper class??? I guess I'm a lot better off than I realize. :confused:

[bubbacoach]

Don't forget all the upper middle class white neighborhoods around CONVERSE JUDSON!

[High Lonesome]

There are some highschools in the KatyISD that would be considered upper middle class, but I doubt that Katy would be one of them. KHS is about as diversified as it gets in suburbia(monetarily speaking)

[Miss Kitty]

People who put is in that group have obviously never visited out little town. You have to be from Katy to really understand how diversified we are. Oh don't get me wrong, we are upperclass in my opinion. But the class comes from our traditions, spirit, community pride, and heart, but not from our pocketbooks.

But thanks for thinking so. Like Bullrock said, I always felt blessed, but I must be even better off than I thought I was.

[PlanoNative]

White suburbs ---> money ---> facilities & coaching ---> wins.

Yes, there is "Robin Hood".. but white suburbia still can fork over the big $$ for athletics (through fundraising and the like) that inner city / rural cannot.

My purpose is not to offend anyone but those are the facts. We can debate equity / class somewhere else.

[CyFallsMom]

I think that someone here needs to visit Katy before making these assumptions. Yes, Cinco Ranch and Taylor are in some higher income areas but Katy High is located in the town proper of Katy, Texas - a small Texas railroad town that just happens to be surrounded by a lot of growth and affluence. Nevertheless, that town has managed to keep its identity as a small town and you don't see a lot of hoity toity mansions in the town - very middle class America there (love the Rice festival by the way). I have met a lot of the people out there this year, especially since my husband went to teach in Katy and we met some at the games and they are very nice, humble, proud people but not arrogant or upper crusty at all. I know it seems weird for a Cy Falls person to be saying this but we out in the Cypress Falls area are cut from the same type mold so I know what they are about, even though the only "town" we have is Cypress and it's not much of a town anymore:( More of a suburb now.

[bullrock]

I didn't know we were talking about Converse, bubba. :rolleyes:

[dragonfootballfan]

I think you are missing the best team in Texas and the best team in the Nation. Longview is not an upperclass suburban town.:D :D :D

[Dragon20]

Lets not forget Southlake is the same way, 10 years ago SLC was nothing more than an old 3A farm town outside of Grapevine. Change is fast and seemingly overwhelming, but occasionally you still see some of the same old crowd who sat in the stands 10, 15, 20 years ago. Regardless the tradition and standards run rich in these programs. Children grow up going to Nov. games and occasionally a Dec. game or a few. When the kids reach the age of Varsity, pride becomes over them they are known as football players to communities run by the football program.

[implacable44]

Don't forget all the upper middle class white neighborhoods around CONVERSE JUDSON!


surely ye jest - there are no upper middle class neighborhoods around Judson.

[Miss Kitty]

Thanks CyFallsMom. I couldn't have described it better myself. And I live there. LOL

[Miss Kitty]

Lets not forget Southlake is the same way, 10 years ago SLC was nothing more than an old 3A farm town outside of Grapevine. Change is fast and seemingly overwhelming, but occasionally you still see some of the same old crowd who sat in the stands 10, 15, 20 years ago. Regardless the tradition and standards run rich in these programs. Children grow up going to Nov. games and occasionally a Dec. game or a few. When the kids reach the age of Varsity, pride becomes over them they are known as football players to communities run by the football program.


You are right, they are both good programs. I guess the difference I see in your statement is that we don't "occasionally" see the same old crowd who sat in our stands 10, 15, 20 years ago. You always see the same old crowd who has been sitting in our stands 10, 15, 20, years ago and beyond. Multiple generations of Tigers.

[bullrock]

I think that was a dart meant for me implac.

[JRocketMan]

surely ye jest - there are no upper middle class neighborhoods around Judson.

I guess you havent been here in awhile.

[backthepack]

Ever heard of Lufkin, Texas? Not quite upperclass if you ask me

[ktchamp97]

Katy is not "upper" class and not in the same league as HP and SLC. Upper-middle, maybe, but Katy is definitely middle class.

I don't think the success of suburban schools is directly related to the income of the community, but, rather, it's a reflection of the administration's commitment to athletics. There are affluent suburban schools which don't have great administrative support for athletics, and, usually, they don't do as well. There are also lower-income communities whose administrations choose to make athletics a priority and they, in turn, end up with great coaches and great facilities.

The success is much more related to community support, not community income.

[AZTiger]

I think that someone here needs to visit Katy before making these assumptions. Yes, Cinco Ranch and Taylor are in some higher income areas but Katy High is located in the town proper of Katy, Texas - a small Texas railroad town that just happens to be surrounded by a lot of growth and affluence. Nevertheless, that town has managed to keep its identity as a small town and you don't see a lot of hoity toity mansions in the town - very middle class America there (love the Rice festival by the way). I have met a lot of the people out there this year, especially since my husband went to teach in Katy and we met some at the games and they are very nice, humble, proud people but not arrogant or upper crusty at all.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for posting this. You took the words right out of my mouth. I grew up and lived in old town Katy my whole life until I moved to Phoenix. That's exactly how it is.

[lonny23]

Katy is not "upper" class and not in the same league as HP and SLC. Upper-middle, maybe, but Katy is definitely middle class.

I don't think the success of suburban schools is directly related to the income of the community, but, rather, it's a reflection of the administration's commitment to athletics. There are affluent suburban schools which don't have great administrative support for athletics, and, usually, they don't do as well. There are also lower-income communities whose administrations choose to make athletics a priority and they, in turn, end up with great coaches and great facilities.

The success is much more related to community support, not community income.
I don't agree with the money thing. Highland Park just won their first title since 1957.

[implacable44]

I guess you havent been here in awhile.

oh really - i go home at least twice a year cowboy - why don't you point me to these affluent neighborhoods within the Judson ISD ? Live Oak ? Windcrest? Schertz? Olympia ? Coronado ? Westlake ?

[Dragon20]

I don't agree with the money thing. Highland Park just won their first title since 1957.

Lonny,
Highland parks record does not make them great?
11-4A Highland Park (672-238-27) and winning 73.16% of there games?
Almost 700 wins "For Crying Out Loud"

[badger95]

You're always going to have different teams from different backgrounds do well.

Judson, Lufkin, Copperas Cove, North Shore and the like are all teams with a depth of athletes, good coaching, great facilities, and a commitment to winning.

Teams like Smithson Valley, Southlake Carroll, Westlake, The Woodlands, and the like are all schools with kids who have a very high expectation for success, good coaching, great facilities, a committment to winning, and parental support (both financial and caring).

[UT66]

Cy Falls Mom has it right on. Those who classify Katy with SLC and HP have no idea what they are talking about. There are schools in the Katy school district that better match the SLC and HP area base, but it aint KHS!

[rich_pack]

I guess now the lower budget teams should just call it quits now since SLC has more money than the others now. Guess we should start a rich high school league so they can keep from playing lower class kids.

[rwilleby]

This is a stupid thread... Written to divide... The football field is the same length no matter your economic status...

[Down n' Out]

Katy High is very diversified. Thought I'd get this in before the thread is closed.
That's not true...Katy has more white kids by percentage than any High School in the Katy area. Cinco is very close.

[LoneRocket]

oh really - i go home at least twice a year cowboy - why don't you point me to these affluent neighborhoods within the Judson ISD ? Live Oak ? Windcrest? Schertz? Olympia ? Coronado ? Westlake ?
Mission Hills?

[Down n' Out]

Stats from KISD: Taylor - 77% White
Cinco - 76.1
Katy - 72.6
Mayde Creek - 48.1
Morton Ranch - 45.9
Seven Lakes - N/A
So much for diversity...

[High Lonesome]

Stats from KISD: Taylor - 77% White
Cinco - 76.1
Katy - 72.6
Mayde Creek - 48.1
Morton Ranch - 45.9
Seven Lakes - N/A
So much for diversity...

I think that they were refering to diversity in income brackets

[Tut]

I think that they were refering to diversity in income brackets
You have that right Lonesome. I should have worded it better.:o

[Winston]

Well, I sure hope most folks from SLC have more class than to have to be abusive to others to feel a sense of worth - but hats off to Breeze for voicing his honest opinion instead of trying to win a popularity contest on the board. If the SLC team really did rain on the Lufkin band's parade, I hope it was a minority of their constituency that willingly condoned it - just like I hope the annual posts on this board touting the greatness of that community in terms of per capita income, etc. etc. are only coming from a minority of that population. People (non-dysfunctional ones) shouldn't have to diminish others to feel a sense of worth. That's why I think a lot of posts on this particular issue can't be truly representative of the SLC community, which I'm sure is classier than that.

No real need for a new post here, which is why I'm bringing back one from last week found in another thread.

[Winston]

Well, maybe there is a need for another post after all. To answer the original question, "What's the deal with upperclass suburbia?" - Maybe the deal is that there is more of a concentration of corporate pushers there to whom sticking a status symbol in somebody's face means more than common decency, sportsmanship, or anything else - which is why they drive their kids to overachieve. I just hope there are no hidden problems with steroids or cocaine in these communities as a result of this type of thing. Just trying to answer the question here.

[dragonbuck]

How do you explain Trinity's success??? This is a stupid thread.

[THEsouthlakeCARROLL]

Agreed... I mean what exactly does this have to do with success? Trinity, Lufkin, and from what the Katy posters are saying... Katy... Not to mention that SLC some average earners aswell... myself being one of them

[WildcatFan]

This is by far the stupidest thread by far. Here are the facts.

Unless you live in Highland Park or Tanglewood in Houston all the rest of us in Texas are either Nuvo Riche wannabee's who are leveraged in debt like 99.8% of the rest of America or dirt poor.

As far as football the game is about heart and skill. Money didn't win the State Championship for HP and it certainly won't for SLC.

Trinity is a fine example, I know that area and I would hardly call it an upperclass suburbia. Most folks are hard working families trying to make it and it all came down to a great group of kids who had the heart and desire to win. (Period)

As far as the race thing well debate it if you wish I don't think it matters and as I have said before if race was the sole reason for dominance in football Dallas Carter would be playing tomorrow not SLC.

[THEsouthlakeCARROLL]

And thats the end of that chapter, Well Said

[Winston]

I guess these guys aren't the same ones that filled up that thread with posts extolling the greatness of Plano and Southlake in terms of per capita income, educational superiority, etc. a couple weeks ago. Like I say, I believe most people from there just have to be classier than that. The posters that make it a holiday ritual on this board to enlighten the readers about their socioeconomic superiority, directly or indirectly, can't be truly representing their communities.

[WildcatFan]

I guess these guys aren't the same ones that filled up that thread with posts extolling the greatness of Plano and Southlake in terms of per capita income, educational superiority, etc. a couple weeks ago. Like I say, I believe most people from there just have to be classier than that. The posters that make it a holiday ritual on this board to enlighten the readers about their socioeconomic superiority, directly or indirectly, just can't truly represent those communities.

Well as a resident of Plano I can tell you that vast majority of Planoittes do not consider ourselves living in the lap of luxury with silver spoons.

I think people have developed a perception that we are all millionairs, and unless you live in pockets of the Westside with Troy Aikman, Deion Sanders etc, most of us are all middleclass folks trying to make it a bit better than we had it.

I think the complaint you get from Plano folks is on the Robin Hood deal as we have to ship out a boatload of money into a system, which from our perspective is unfair.

I don't think anyone from plano preaches economic superiority,as as far as acedemic superiority well the numbers speak for themselves, what can I say we have real smart kids who have parents that are very involved with their longterm success.

[Winston]

I don't think anyone from plano preaches economic superiority,as as far as acedemic superiority well the numbers speak for themselves, what can I say we have real smart kids who have parents that are very involved with their longterm success.


Nothing wrong with that, as long as the reason for it does not have to do with the parents having to tell everyone about that longterm success to make it real for them.

[WildcatFan]

Nothing wrong with that, as long as the reason for it does not have to do with the parents having to tell everyone about that longterm success to make it real for them.

Well I would agree with that of course you always have overdriven parents in every crowd.

Plano/Dallas are very similiar to Austin and Roundrock, once you get north of 183 and Mopac there is a different mindset.

I think this is due to the bubbles we live in that have less to do with money and more to do with security. Most plano folks work in the corp and tech sectors and when layoffs hit or daddys job was sent to Bangalore India there is a sense that we want more for our kids than we have inn terms of not being obsolete. The surest way to get there is to be ahead of the curve not for the treasure that comes with it but more out of we want our kids to have better skills and smarts to mitigate those situations.

Perhaps its wishful thinking and I know some of the parents around here are a bit overdriven.

I unlike my kids did not grow up here in Plano I spent my rearing years in eastern Tarrant County East Fort Worth to be exact and the hopes of my mother was that I wasn't in Huntsville doing 30 years.

Now that I am succuessful, at least based on where I came from, I want better for my kids but not to the point that they are jaded.

[CLFalcon2006]

Economics has very little to do with HS ball. Sure some schools can afford better equipment than others but when it all comes down to it thats maybe 3% of what its all about. Clear Lake is an upper middle class suburb community and our uscces has varied greatly since we were built in 73. For the longest time Lake was just plain bad. We've had our moments of greatness. In the early 90's we had good teams and we've had mixed sucess in the Aduddel era sometimes having bad teams (2-8 this year) and great teams (04 state semis).

Its all about atheletes and the community in high school football. Last year Lake had some of the finest athletes in the state, this year while we still have great athletes some just don't match up to what the other schools threw at us. A team that isn't really supported by a community usually isn't a team at all. How proud must those Katy and SLC players be when they see their stands packed with more fans than some college teams. How sad must some schools players be when when the run out onto the field and see all of 20 people there. A community that supports a team really helps the mindset of players and can really give them a major boost in the mental aspect of football. I know that last year we actually saw the Clear Lake area respond as an entire community when the team was doing so good and the players were thrilled that we managed to pack our stands at rice and the alamodome. I also know that when the stands were thin as this years dismal season went on it didn't help the players already weakened mindset.

The last thing is that only very very few communities are complelety 100% wealthy (like every kid in the school is loaded). Most schools have different areas. Katy has some rich areas but also has some areas where there are just regular people, same thing with Lake, and same thing with most other areas.

[FeeltheHaka]

This is an entertaining thread! We can look at Permian from the past and gain some insight, but it is more recent times that the Nuvo riche have poured money into their athletic programs. These monies are coming directly from the parents. Take a look at some of the shoulder pads and helmets on the Southlake's players. I know the superintendent of Southlake, and I can tell you that the district would not pay for those shoulder pads, and helmets. Those shoulder pads and helmets are custom made. Now for Southlake's facilities, they actually make a little money on them by renting them out. They are not making a profit, but helping to pay for them. It is more recent times that the nuvo riche have been using their schools football program as a societal badge. Now having lived in Plano for a while (4 yrs. ago,) and my wife teaching at one of the schools, I can tell you that Plano parents pour an immense amount of money into their football program. A few years ago, Plano did have alot of money. The downfall of Telecomm. put a little bit of a damper into this. Nevertheless, there is still alot of money in Plano. The school district in Plano used robin hood to scare even more money out of the parents in Plano. It was actually quite funny and effective. It is also one of the reasons we moved back to the mid-cities. Another thing to look at is the use of monies to lure good coaches, and the coaches own children growing up in a nice community. Now I also used to live in The Woodlands when I was much younger, when The Woodlands high school used to be Conroe high school, and then McCullough high school. When I lived there, Katy was in the boonies, and so was The Woodlands. Katy, The Woodlands, Plano, Southlake experienced exponentialy rapid growth, and an influx of nuvo riche money over the last 10 years. The nuvo riche place a high value on the high school sports (football in particular,) and we can see how these programs excelled. The nuvo riche believe that sports are a good way to teach young people competitiveness, leadership, teamwork etc. I tend to agree with this, except that one must learn how to rise above this without the money. There are some life skills one needs to learn without the support of others. I think in the next few years, we will see a more leveling of the playing field, in that the knowledge gained from the richer programs are spreading to the rest. Trinity is an example. I can tell you that we have implemented so much of Southlake's ideas and innovations into our program, it is not even funny. I don't think this thread is meant to divide, but give the facts.

[AZTiger]

paragraphs are your friend ;)

[FeeltheHaka]

paragraphs are your friend ;)

If that was towards me, Point taken. Quite funny actually! I read this after posting it, and even my eyes were tired.

[AZTiger]

I also think this is a good thread.

At Katy things are just "different." It is NOT a filthy rich place. Cinco Ranch is filthy rich. Katy still is a small town. Inside the city limits, where the high school is, it's still got that little town feel.

We were just blessed with a fantastic coach in Mike Johnston who sold an entire community on rallying around a group of 16, 17, and 18 year olds every weekend each fall. Many of the coaches still there have been there a looooong time, and now former players from the Johnston regime are coming back to coach, and you come full circle. It's a cycle that will never end.

Winning breeds winning.

[gritty52]

For once a thread yaw can't rag on Trinity. Come on I know one of yaw knotheads want to bring Trinity in on this! A champion in a broke town like Euless. A championship can't be won these days unless you have the million$ budgets like some of yaw have. Trinity just had a lucky year with exceptional players. Still say if Nance was in SLC or other big buck towns he would have been the 5A poy. Still would like to know what Trinity has done to yaw to be so hated on here????? Congrats SLC and appreciate yaw keeping one of the 5A trophies in the metroplex.

[t00 playa]

White suburbs ---> money ---> facilities & coaching ---> wins.

Yes, there is "Robin Hood".. but white suburbia still can fork over the big $$ for athletics (through fundraising and the like) that inner city / rural cannot.

My purpose is not to offend anyone but those are the facts. We can debate equity / class somewhere else.


i agree with this... kids have better opportunities, better training, diets, etc when they come from money....numerous camps, weight facilties, programs, etc... they all lead to success....however.. there are exceptions to the rule.... but more often than not... this will be the case.... especially in the innercities.... for example.. i dont think the inner city HISD schools will ever make it back..... with the exception of maybe lamar and westside...:eek:

[bubbacoach]

Mission Hills?
Do not forget Sunrise!!

[bullrock]

Don't forget Century Oaks either.

[drgnbkr]

This is a capitalistic system we live in so there will always be those with more than others...there are advantages to having more than less, but I still insist that football, as opposed to say golf or tennis, is a game that requires that you knock the snot ought of the other guy before he knocks it out of you.

[dragonsdaddy]

the helmets and pads are standard issue. don't know where you are getting your info, but there's nothing special about them. many parents buy the helmet after the season as a memento, so there is a big turnover every year.
does money play a role? of course. probably the biggest is in the kids ability to work out and train at their leisure, in the spring and summer, and attend football camps. unfortunately most of the collegiate camps are recruiting tools and don't teach enough to merit the time and expense. along that line, the best bang for your buck for anyone desiring to get their young receivers and qbs really valuable training, seek out the hardin-simmons camp every summer. best in the area except maybe todd dodge's.

[KT2000]

I was going to lock this right off the bat, but I think people need to be able to discuss topics like this without jumping down each others' throats.

Money can definitely help. I think that's obvious. It's definitely not the only thing. Community support, coaching, tradition and talent pool all go before it in my opinion.

[AHS Mustangs]

I think money has some to do with it, in the fact that they can have better facilities and such. But, look at Aldine ISD. Three of the four high schools have played in the state championship and the area around the schools is not upper class and in some cases not even middle class. The difference with Aldine ISD is that it makes a lot of money off the businesses that are in its boundaries. As far as community support, that is also a key. Aldine and IKE have big followings, though Aldine's has slacked in the past couple of years. But teams suchs as Northbrook in Spring Branch ISD or Smiley and Forest Brook in North Forest ISD, they have like 10 people come to their games. I can remember when Smiley was in 21-5a with the Aldine schools, and one season there was 1 person on their side, and that is no joke. Other than the band, and the drill team, which probably totalled all of 20 together, there was only one man on their side. It is sad, but it is reality that some teams don't have the support that others do.

[CyFallsMom]

I can remember when Smiley was in 21-5a with the Aldine schools, and one season there was 1 person on their side, and that is no joke. Other than the band, and the drill team, which probably totalled all of 20 together, there was only one man on their side. It is sad, but it is reality that some teams don't have the support that others do.

I remember the last year that Spring Branch was opened - I don't remember who we were playing but it was raining horribly. We had 3 people on our side - THREE total - the band and Brigade didn't even go. Those 3 were me and two of my friends from high school. I had been out of high school for 7 years at that point. That was one of two victories for us that year. Then a few weeks later, we played the final game of our history against Memorial - it was standing room only. I didn't sit in the stands much though. The coach, at the urging of my husband who was on the staff, let me go to the locker room and listen to the pregame speech and then I stood on the sidelines until the 4th qtr. - that was our second win!

[Dragon20]

The reason I started this is because I don't see the inner-city teams anymore deep in the play off picture i.e. Dallas schools, Houston Schools, Ft. Worth Schools, El Paso Schools, Austin School minus Westlake which is on the Skirts, and San Antonio Schools? Where are the teams from these area I do see Dallas Carter sometimes in the playoffs but where is every one else?

[CLFalcon2006]

The reason I started this is because I don't see the inner-city teams anymore deep in the play off picture i.e. Dallas schools, Houston Schools, Ft. Worth Schools, El Paso Schools, Austin School minus Westlake which is on the Skirts, and San Antonio Schools? Where are the teams from these area I do see Dallas Carter sometimes in the playoffs but where is every one else?

Theres a good number that have dropped down to 4A, like Yates and BT Washington for example in Houston. There stil competitive, just not on the 5A stage.

[Drake]

I don't see it as much an economic/race issue as I do a civic pride issue... The schools that ask for and encourage parent and community participation in school extra-curriculars seem to have more success in those endeavors...

North Shore's athletic program is as good as any in the state and it doesn't fit the supposition in the title of this thread at all. However, their parents are certainly involved and the community prides itself on it's winning traditions.

Some would argue that expectations of the community creates too much pressure on a high school participant, setting them up for a great fall... But there is no doubt the expectations also places a certain responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the players and many respond by working even harder to meet them... When you get that happening every year, you will eventually have what Katy, North Shore, SLC, and a few others have... A top Texas program...

[AHS Mustangs]

But there is no doubt the expectations also places a certain responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the players and many respond by working even harder to meet them... When you get that happening every year, you will eventually have what Katy, North Shore, SLC, and a few others have... A top Texas program...

I can remember in the early 90s when North Shore would loose to us 69-7 or 56-0, they still had good fan support. That is what it is about, with good support, you can become good, but you can also fail. The difference is that programs that fail, pick up and move on, with the fans, and become good again. Instead of the fans dropping off when the team is having a down year or period, that is harder to come back from.

[KTBTyler]

I believe upper class is a technically wrong term. Even upper middle. It's just middle class. My dad once explained to me the classifications for each group... and I can't remember them at the moment... sorry. but I distinctly remember him saying that even the higher up areas in Katy (cinco ranch... etc) aren't upper middle.

Well here's definitions I found online:
The middle class refers to people neither at the top nor bottom of a social hierarchy. In today's usage, the term is often applied to people who have a degree of economic independence, but not a great deal of social influence or power in their society. For example, in the United States, a small-business owner who owns her own home and cleans it herself would generally be described as "middle class". This would be in contrast to a lower-class person who relies upon the good graces of an employer and landlord, as well as to an upper-class person who can live off investments. There are many things that define middle class such as financial, behavioural and historic grounds. In the US it is predominantly finance that determines the social hierarchy.

The term upper class refers to a group of people at the top of a social hierarchy. Often members of an upper class do not have to work for a living as they are supported by earned or inherited investments. Members of an upper class often have power over other people as employers or landlords, or sometimes as members of a government. The term "upper class" has had a complex range of meanings and usages, and in the 21st century many people are uncomfortable with it as a term and as a concept. In many traditional societies, membership of the upper class was hard or even impossible to acquire by any means other than being born into it. Nowadays a high income can be enough on its own for a person to be considered upper class in some countries, especially United States (in fact, most of the richest people in the United States were born into the middle class). Other factors such as attitudes, tastes, education, occupation and accents are often relevant.

So unless people from KATY and other places are inheriting great fortunes or have people working for them to make money for them, then I would believe they are middle class ;).

[Drake]

I can remember in the early 90s when North Shore would loose to us 69-7 or 56-0, they still had good fan support. That is what it is about, with good support, you can become good, but you can also fail. The difference is that programs that fail, pick up and move on, with the fans, and become good again. Instead of the fans dropping off when the team is having a down year or period, that is harder to come back from.Agreed. But I meant more than just showing up to the games. Stuff like encouraging all the kids to participate, making sure kids get to offseason workouts, reminding them why their program excels, etc, etc...

North Shore is not exactly the same as it was back in the 90's... The school district has committed to athletic excellence with great facilities and expectations are much higher in the community than they once were... The great teams they've fielded certainly has a trickle down effect on the kids coming up AND the parents of talented individuals in the area. A lot of great young athletes move into the North Shore, SLC, and Katy attendance zones in junior high so they can be part of the tradition... My point is, winning breeds winning... Expect to see the same teams on top most of the time...

[bullrock]

In the last 25 years I would say Judson has been sliding down the economic scale but they haven't fallen off too much on the field. You can expect to see them late in the playoffs most years. Look at the playoff brackets after 3 games for the last 5 years in both divisions. Notice a pattern? It seems the same teams get there most of the time. What does that tell you? Now look at the percieved advantages/disadvantages you would expect from a monetary standpoint. It doesn't seem to matter. It's the same teams playing in these games. It's called "The Program". I can tell you at Judson most of the parents do not have the time or money to send their kids to off-season camps or make sure they get to summer work-outs. The fact is, a lot of these kids work during the summer and have little time for it. There are exceptons of course, but that is not the rule here. The coaching staff and the program are what makes the difference.

[Pearland1]

Northbrook is 1-100 in the last 10 years so something like that do you blame them for not going out there? They are one of the worst or the worst football program in Texas. Its sad the their own district does not care about them everything goes to pump up Memorial.

[PurpleNation]

Yes you can notcie that SLC is mostly white and we hear the stories how they have their on personal trainers. I dont think race or money has anythiing to do with winning. Lufkin I woudnt say completly ghetto but some has an indoor pratcie facility an instant replay sreen and the team in mostly black. Becuase they are Black you expect them to win moor and reign king(?). Football is football I dont care if you have a roster with nothing but Orange people on it if they can play they can play. SLC might be a rich white team but lat time I checked money doesnt win you football games. The heart and desire of a champion does and thats why SLC has 3 rings in 4 years.


Lufkin Ready for 06 (Reloaded)

[Drake]

Northbrook is 1-100 in the last 10 years so something like that do you blame them for not going out there? They are one of the worst or the worst football program in Texas. Its sad the their own district does not care about them everything goes to pump up Memorial.Know nothing about Northbrook but I'll bet if you were to contrast them to SLC you'd find that SLC more kids come out for football at SLC, more parents are involved in the program and booster club at SLC, more kids move into SLC's attendance zone to play at SLC (kids may move AWAY from Northbrook) there are more unofficial team workouts at SLC, the facilities are better at SLC, the coaches are higher paid at SLC... I can go on and on... Like I said, winning breeds winning and losing can be contagious too...

But I laugh at people that think their elite programs are a result of some sort of higher ethos (for instance more "heart and desire") without admitting or appreciating that they have so many other tangible advantages...

[pack0808]

Look at Bellaire. They are a horrible football program and they have all kinds of money. They have a GREAT ( greatest in history) baseball program though. Money is just a slight factor.

[KT44BG]

I've heard that Katy has more minority than the stereotypical upper class suburbia people. I am willing to believe it. The suburban kids and a few of the others are the only ones who have the heart to go all the way through the Katy football program, the rest fall out and don't care about it, therefore it appears as we are an all-white team.

[AZTiger]

I've heard that Katy has more minority than the stereotypical upper class suburbia people. I am willing to believe it. The suburban kids and a few of the others are the only ones who have the heart to go all the way through the Katy football program, the rest fall out and don't care about it, therefore it appears as we are an all-white team.

kind of like some of the Nawlins kids huh? Heard they didn't like the discipline of the program.

[drgnbkr]

Know nothing about Northbrook but I'll bet if you were to contrast them to SLC you'd find that SLC more kids come out for football at SLC, more parents are involved in the program and booster club at SLC, more kids move into SLC's attendance zone to play at SLC (kids may move AWAY from Northbrook) there are more unofficial team workouts at SLC, the facilities are better at SLC, the coaches are higher paid at SLC... I can go on and on... Like I said, winning breeds winning and losing can be contagious too...

But I laugh at people that think their elite programs are a result of some sort of higher ethos (for instance more "heart and desire") without admitting or appreciating that they have so many other tangible advantages...
If you are referring to Carroll here..you are off a bit..I moved here in 92, in the middle of our first back to back Championships to go with 88. The town was about 7,500 good folks, most with acreage, and horses, cows. The team was made up of a lot of kids who were also on the rodeo team...tuff because they had to be. As most suburban towns do, Southlake grew, from 1 stoplight to 30,000 residents. The large homesites were developed and the income grew, but the winning tradition, that Coach Dodge is still protecting, was created by a bunch of well coached, tough, proud kids. All traits I think you'd find in a lot of the states winningest programs...so laugh all you want

[Drake]

I've heard that Katy has more minority than the stereotypical upper class suburbia people. I am willing to believe it. The suburban kids and a few of the others are the only ones who have the heart to go all the way through the Katy football program, the rest fall out and don't care about it, therefore it appears as we are an all-white team.Would some Katy backer explain to me what this person is trying to say and if it's the typical thinking in Katy?

[Drake]

If you are referring to Carroll here..you are off a bit..I moved here in 92, in the middle of our first back to back Championships to go with 88. The town was about 7,500 good folks, most with acreage, and horses, cows. The team was made up of a lot of kids who were also on the rodeo team...tuff because they had to be. As most suburban towns do, Southlake grew, from 1 stoplight to 30,000 residents. The large homesites were developed and the income grew, but the winning tradition, that Coach Dodge is still protecting, was created by a bunch of well coached, tough, proud kids. All traits I think you'd find in a lot of the states winningest programs...so laugh all you wantCarroll? Who is she? Oh, you mean the town? I said "I laugh at people that think their elite programs are a result of some sort of higher ethos (for instance more "heart and desire") without admitting or appreciating that they have so many other tangible advantages...", not towns... And I wasn't talking about anyone or group in particular...

But I read into many posts here (so I assume it's prevelant) a certain arrogance from the fans of elite programs that their accomplishments are a direct result of something intangible like a greater desire to work hard or that special something that doesn't allow them to quit when the chips are down... I think it's BS.

You win because all those years ago your community COMMITTED to winning which meant committing the time and money as adults. Football is the most expensive and time consuming sport for parents. Some communities may want to do what you've done, but just can't do the same for their kids... Doesn't mean their kids are any less capable or willing... Once you started winning the talent came and will keep coming...

But its arrogant to believe the kids at SLC or Katy (2 most successful programs) are somehow tougher, prouder, whatever... That's BS. Most of the kids at SLC and Katy know its BS too... Those same guys that played for state-finalists Katy know that if they take a basketball across the highway then all of a sudden its Elsik that has a, what did you call it, "well-coached team with tough, proud kids" kicking their *****...

There are a handful of football programs in the state that want to win bad enough that they'll commit the resources it takes to get and stay on top... Seems like to me the football fans of those teams should feel lucky and blessed, and not sneer at those that can't or choose not to spend the money it takes to do the same...

[dragonfootballfan]

Carroll? Who is she? Oh, you mean the town? I said "I laugh at people that think their elite programs are a result of some sort of higher ethos (for instance more "heart and desire") without admitting or appreciating that they have so many other tangible advantages...", not towns... And I wasn't talking about anyone or group in particular...

But I read into many posts here (so I assume it's prevelant) a certain arrogance from the fans of elite programs that their accomplishments are a direct result of something intangible like a greater desire to work hard or that special something that doesn't allow them to quit when the chips are down... I think it's BS.

You win because all those years ago your community COMMITTED to winning which meant committing the time and money as adults. Football is the most expensive and time consuming sport for parents. Some communities may want to do what you've done, but just can't do the same for their kids... Doesn't mean their kids are any less capable or willing... Once you started winning the talent came and will keep coming...

But its arrogant to believe the kids at SLC or Katy (2 most successful programs) are somehow tougher, prouder, whatever... That's BS. Most of the kids at SLC and Katy know its BS too... Those same guys that played for state-finalists Katy know that if they take a basketball across the highway then all of a sudden its Elsik that has a, what did you call it, "well-coached team with tough, proud kids" kicking their *****...

There are a handful of football programs in the state that want to win bad enough that they'll commit the resources it takes to get and stay on top... Seems like to me the football fans of those teams should feel lucky and blessed, and not sneer at those that can't or choose not to spend the money it takes to do the same...
So you are saying everybody tries just as hard to win as everybody else? I definitely do not agree

[Drake]

So you are saying everybody tries just as hard to win as everybody else? I definitely do not agreeNo, almost saying the opposite. Put it this way: If you wanted to build a program like SLC's, where would you start? Anywhere that would be would require someone to spend a lot of time and money, whether it's parents, coaches, school districts, etc.

What I'm saying is, most don't have the resources or have them but do not earmark them for football... That DOESN'T mean the kids in those communities are less willing to work for something etc., just don't get the opportunity.

[dragonfootballfan]

No, almost saying the opposite. Put it this way: If you wanted to build a program like SLC's, where would you start? Anywhere that would be would require someone to spend a lot of time and money, whether it's parents, coaches, school districts, etc.

What I'm saying is, most don't have the resources or have them but do not earmark them for football... That DOESN'T mean the kids in those communities are less willing to work for something etc., just don't get the opportunity.
So why is a school like Coppell which has a small tradition, but has arguably the best facilities in the state still shuffling in mediocrity?

[drgnbkr]

No, almost saying the opposite. Put it this way: If you wanted to build a program like SLC's, where would you start? Anywhere that would be would require someone to spend a lot of time and money, whether it's parents, coaches, school districts, etc.

What I'm saying is, most don't have the resources or have them but do not earmark them for football... That DOESN'T mean the kids in those communities are less willing to work for something etc., just don't get the opportunity.

You are an intelligent guy, but you are way off on this one..I've had 2 Carroll grads with a 3rd on the way & I guess you'd have to spend some time in Southlake to get it..but then, maybe we dont want to share it with you...;)

[Drake]

You are an intelligent guy, but you are way off on this one..I've had 2 Carroll grads with a 3rd on the way & I guess you'd have to spend some time in Southlake to get it..but then, maybe we dont want to share it with you...;)Maybe I don't get it, but... I'm willing to bet SLC is good in baseball and golf too... Developing lots of good players in these sports requires parent encouragement, participation, and money beginning at a young age. If kids are afforded such, they develop and excel, if they're not, they don't. Has nothing to do with their pride or toughness.

Basketball doesn't require much in the way of any of that, just a neighborhood hoop. Because time and money aren't so important to developing basketball skills, I'm also willing to bet SLC doesn't standout in this sport, at least not to the extent its football program does...

I'm not taking ANYTHING away from what SLC has accomplished... Just saying it has more to do with your economic advantages than it does your breeding.

[Drake]

So why is a school like Coppell which has a small tradition, but has arguably the best facilities in the state still shuffling in mediocrity?Coppell? I don't know anything about them. I thought they were pretty good?

If they have the facilities, spend the money on the coaching, encourage kids to suit up in the third grade, etc etc, then they'll probably get there... Don't you think? Or do you too believe its something in the water (like peroxide) in Southlake? ;)

[drgnbkr]

Maybe I don't get it, but... I'm willing to bet SLC is good in baseball and golf too... Developing lots of good players in these sports requires parent encouragement, participation, and money beginning at a young age. If kids are afforded such, they develop and excel, if they're not, they don't. Has nothing to do with their pride or toughness.

Basketball doesn't require much in the way of any of that, just a neighborhood hoop. Because time and money aren't so important to developing basketball skills, I'm also willing to bet SLC doesn't standout in this sport, at least not to the extent its football program does...

I'm not taking ANYTHING away from what SLC has accomplished... Just saying it has more to do with your economic advantages than it does your breeding.

Carroll has state titles in almost every sport, including basketball, but we are talking about football. Sure it helps to have resources, but I don't think a kid in Lufkin or Katy gives a flip if the kid across from him is from a wealthy area, other than to maybe motivate him more....what matters is who plays tougher, better, and more as a team..thats football

[dragonfootballfan]

Coppell? I don't know anything about them. I thought they were pretty good?

If they have the facilities, spend the money on the coaching, encourage kids to suit up in the third grade, etc etc, then they'll probably get there... Don't you think? Or do you too believe its something in the water (like peroxide) in Southlake? ;)
Coppell not made the playoffs the last two years, despite having one of the states top runningback talents. They have spent money on all of those things, but something is missing and it is not money.

[Drake]

Carroll has state titles in almost every sport, including basketball, but we are talking about football. Sure it helps to have resources, but I don't think a kid in Lufkin or Katy gives a flip if the kid across from him is from a wealthy area, other than to maybe motivate him more....what matters is who plays tougher, better, and more as a team..thats footballExactly! And neither do the kids at any other school care if you're from a wealthy area. That's my point.

But when a kid, say at Haltom, is out sloshing around in the mud trying to practice while there upcoming opponent is in a state-of-the-art indoor facility and he knows that all their best players moved to the SLC attendance zone in jr. high to have a chance at the playoffs, I have a problem with you telling him he loses because he just wasn't tough or proud enough...

[Chazzz]

As a new poster, I fully expect that my thoughts on this subect will come under heavy scrutiny. But I ain't gonna let that stop me! I will gladly accept constructive criticism, and differing viewpoints and opinions.

The way I see it, many variables MUST work cohesively for a program like SLC has put together the last few years to remain so very successful.

Money (resources), alone, will not win championships.
Community Pride, alone, will not win championships.
Coaching, alone, will not win championships.
Athleticism, alone, will not win championships.
Facilities, alone, will not win championships.
Desire to win, alone, will not win championships.
Perfect Strategy, alone, will not win championships.
Genetics, alone, will not win championships.
Work Ethic, alone, will not win championships.

Allow me to conclude my opinion on this matter with the following:

SLC has been blessed and fortunate to have many affluent residents who have WORKED very hard to acheive their status in society. They parent/teach these kids "excellence in all you do" from birth, and expect to acheive their goals, both personal and professional.

The young men playing SLC football are under EXTREME pressure to win, and are very highly regarded in the community, and are "celebrities."

Take equal parts of money, pride, coaching, athleticism, facilites, desire, strategy, genetics, work ethic, pressure and community expectations...you end up with something very special. Southlake has that something special at the moment.

And Southlake isn't alone, as many fine programs have a nice recipe of the above ingredients for success.

My .02 -- thanks for listening.
Love this board!

CHZ

[Drake]

As a new poster, I fully expect that my thoughts on this subect will come under heavy scrutiny. But I ain't gonna let that stop me! I will gladly accept constructive criticism, and differing viewpoints and opinions.

The way I see it, many variables MUST work cohesively for a program like SLC has put together the last few years to remain so very successful.

Money (resources), alone, will not win championships.
Community Pride, alone, will not win championships.
Coaching, alone, will not win championships.
Athleticism, alone, will not win championships.
Facilities, alone, will not win championships.
Desire to win, alone, will not win championships.
Perfect Strategy, alone, will not win championships.
Genetics, alone, will not win championships.
Work Ethic, alone, will not win championships.

Allow me to conclude my opinion on this matter with the following:

SLC has been blessed and fortunate to have many affluent residents who have WORKED very hard to acheive their status in society. They parent/teach these kids "excellence in all you do" from birth, and expect to acheive their goals, both personal and professional.

The young men playing SLC football are under EXTREME pressure to win, and are very highly regarded in the community, and are "celebrities."

Take equal parts of money, pride, coaching, athleticism, facilites, desire, strategy, genetics, work ethic, pressure and community expectations...you end up with something very special. Southlake has that something special at the moment.

And Southlake isn't alone, as many fine programs have a nice recipe of the above ingredients for success.

My .02 -- thanks for listening.
Love this board!

CHZI agree with all of that. Many of the ingredients you mention are created by or require one of the others to be present:

I think they come in this order:

Money -> facilities -> good coaching -> perfect strategy -> winning -> better athletes (genetics) -> community pride -> desire to win -> work ethic...

It's GREAT! Again, I only have a problem with those that believe they win because their kids have more character than the kids from poorer schools (that don't have the main ingredient) or schools with different priorities...

[drgnbkr]

As a new poster, I fully expect that my thoughts on this subect will come under heavy scrutiny. But I ain't gonna let that stop me! I will gladly accept constructive criticism, and differing viewpoints and opinions.

The way I see it, many variables MUST work cohesively for a program like SLC has put together the last few years to remain so very successful.

Money (resources), alone, will not win championships.
Community Pride, alone, will not win championships.
Coaching, alone, will not win championships.
Athleticism, alone, will not win championships.
Facilities, alone, will not win championships.
Desire to win, alone, will not win championships.
Perfect Strategy, alone, will not win championships.
Genetics, alone, will not win championships.
Work Ethic, alone, will not win championships.

Allow me to conclude my opinion on this matter with the following:

SLC has been blessed and fortunate to have many affluent residents who have WORKED very hard to acheive their status in society. They parent/teach these kids "excellence in all you do" from birth, and expect to acheive their goals, both personal and professional.

The young men playing SLC football are under EXTREME pressure to win, and are very highly regarded in the community, and are "celebrities."

Take equal parts of money, pride, coaching, athleticism, facilites, desire, strategy, genetics, work ethic, pressure and community expectations...you end up with something very special. Southlake has that something special at the moment.

And Southlake isn't alone, as many fine programs have a nice recipe of the above ingredients for success.

My .02 -- thanks for listening.
Love this board!

CHZ

Very well put chz..I have been in the restaurant biz for most of my life & people ask me why places like Pappadeaux are so popular..I tell them to go to their favorite place & make a list of all the little things that they like..then go to Pappadeaux or another extremely busy place & make a list of all the things they like..the list at Pappadeaux will be longer...hence success or quality is made up of a lot of little things that when combined make an exponentially big thing...as the list you compiled attests..

[Chazzz]

I agree with all of that. Many of the ingredients you mention are created by or require one of the others to be present:

I think they come in this order:

Money -> facilities -> good coaching -> perfect strategy -> winning -> better athletes (genetics) -> community pride -> desire to win -> work ethic

I like the way you think, and cannot disagree with the order you propose.

chz

[Chazzz]

Very well put chz..I have been in the restaurant biz for most of my life & people ask me why places like Pappadeaux are so popular..I tell them to go to their favorite place & make a list of all the little things that they like..then go to Pappadeaux or another extremely busy place & make a list of all the things they like..the list at Pappadeaux will be longer...hence success or quality is made up of a lot of little things that when combined make an exponentially big thing...as the list you compiled attests..

Food for thought drgnbkr...food for thought!
You expressed the "exponential" theory better than I ever could, and you are "DEAD ON." Thanks for the insight...

chz

[AZTiger]

Drake, you're way, WAY off.

Prime example, Judson. There are a lot of schools, the Aldine ones in particular, where I can't point the finger as to why there's been such a decline. I think its less to do with money and more to do with a general apathy high school sports in general. Look across the US, interest in high school sports is in decline, especially football. Now, Texas it's different, but about 10% of the programs in Texas get 90% of the attention.

I just refuse to believe that money is always the driving factor. I spent 4 years (1994-1997) in the Katy program, and I can go round and round with you about what the driving factors were to our success, and have nice locker rooms, great facilities, and the like had little to do with it.

[drgnbkr]

Drake, you're way, WAY off.

Prime example, Judson. There are a lot of schools, the Aldine ones in particular, where I can't point the finger as to why there's been such a decline. I think its less to do with money and more to do with a general apathy high school sports in general. Look across the US, interest in high school sports is in decline, especially football. Now, Texas it's different, but about 10% of the programs in Texas get 90% of the attention.

I just refuse to believe that money is always the driving factor. I spent 4 years (1994-1997) in the Katy program, and I can go round and round with you about what the driving factors were to our success, and have nice locker rooms, great facilities, and the like had little to do with it.

Right on my desert Katy brother!..It is hard to quantify, but the mystique that surrounds the good programs can't be puchased, or looked up in any book, and it takes a long time on the stove to simmer...

[dragons08]

Very well put chz..I have been in the restaurant biz for most of my life & people ask me why places like Pappadeaux are so popular..I tell them to go to their favorite place & make a list of all the little things that they like..then go to Pappadeaux or another extremely busy place & make a list of all the things they like..the list at Pappadeaux will be longer...hence success or quality is made up of a lot of little things that when combined make an exponentially big thing...as the list you compiled attests..
pappadeaux? say what?

[Chazzz]

pappadeaux? say what?

Is Mr. "Sax Swinger" feeling a little hungry? Go getcha some...we'll wait! LOL! :D

[drgnbkr]

pappadeaux? say what?

C'mon, you know what Pappadeaux & Pappasitas are don't you? They are part of a chain out of Houston started by a Greek family named Pappas..they have made very much money for a very long time! We have several of each here in the DFW area...I could have used Cheescake Factory, Ruths Chris...whatever

[AZTiger]

damn double post

[AZTiger]

For example, and ktchamp can attest to this, we moved into our new fieldhouse halfway through our 1997 championship season. Yeah it was new, but still NOTHING compared to what any of the brand new schools have or what teams like McKinney has. Where did we spend our entire junior season and first half of the senior season...in the OLD JUNIOR HIGH LOCKER ROOM! Before that? The original field house from the 60s.

I'm not gonna turn a deaf ear and pretend that financial backing isn't there now, but you can start a winning tradition without it.

Drake you said this was the hierarchy...
Money -> facilities -> good coaching -> perfect strategy -> winning -> better athletes (genetics) -> community pride -> desire to win -> work ethic...

You have no clue. It's the exact opposite and you know it.

When Coach Johnston took over Katy in the early 80s, we were garbage, literally everyone's homecoming. We'd lose to teams 2 classifications below us. BUT, the Friday night games were still THE thing to do in town, so people attended.

Johnston brought a committment to winning and an unmatched work ethic. You flip your hierarchy around, and that's where Katy is now and how they got there.

[Sicemhorns09]

To prove that socio-economics does not inherently help athletic programs... look at the 2003 DI State Title game between The Woodlands and North Shore... It is simple... on the field, it is about who wants it more... the drive of the students determines the outcome of the game. Granted, money does help to an extent, it is not the deciding factor. At The Woodlands we have a rich history in Golf, CC, and Baseball... the reason... the athletes expect to win every year and they want to go out and win for the pride of the town and the school.

[dragons08]

C'mon, you know what Pappadeaux & Pappasitas are don't you? They are part of a chain out of Houston started by a Greek family named Pappas..they have made very much money for a very long time! We have several of each here in the DFW area...I could have used Cheescake Factory, Ruths Chris...whatever
never been there, where is one located in southlake?

[Chazzz]

Drake you said this was the hierarchy...
Money -> facilities -> good coaching -> perfect strategy -> winning -> better athletes (genetics) -> community pride -> desire to win -> work ethic...

You have no clue. It's the exact opposite and you know it.

And now...I scratch my head and ponder. It could go the other way. Can I take both sides and just kind of "bow out gracefully?" Thought not!

Good stuff guys!

chz

[AZTiger]

and to answer one of Drake's questions about what KT44BG said earlier...and to what Drake is complaining about when people said their team has more character.

Hate to break it to ya hoss, but it's true. I've seen some great, GREAT athletes drop from the program because they couldn't hack it, I've seen a captain, quit and walk off the field before the first game of the year because he couldn't take a little coaching (needless to say he was enrolled in another high school before the week was over). I've seen schools with spectacular athletes, have those same spectacular athletes quit on their team and coaches, and then lay on the field and cry like a baby after a playoff loss, and not make an effort to be a man and congratulate the other team (sound familiar Drake...it should, first round of the playoffs ring a bell).

Now, tell me those kids I described have the same amount of character as the kids at Katy, SLC, Lufkin, or any of the other top programs. They don't, and it's not close.

It takes a special kid to committ his entire four years of high school to maintaining himself to be an upstanding student and disciplined athlete. Not everyone has it. THAT, my friend, is heart and character.

[AZTiger]

and i'm on a roll tonight, i can't be stopped ;)

[slcgrad]

So why is a school like Coppell which has a small tradition, but has arguably the best facilities in the state still shuffling in mediocrity?

shuffling in mediocrity? They placed 6th in 5a in the Lonestar cup last year. Most of the Lonestar cup is sports. Thier football program is the only one shuffling in mediocrity.

[dragonfootballfan]

shuffling in mediocrity? They placed 6th in 5a in the Lonestar cup last year. Most of the Lonestar cup is sports. Thier football program is the only one shuffling in mediocrity.
Are we talking about football?

[dragonfootballfan]

I know we are talking about Texas football, but the biggest example of why money is not important iin high school football can be found in Concord, California. There De La Salle High School posted the best winning streak maybe in any sport. I remember hearing that when their coach took over there were no facilities and he was the only coach. He encouraged students to bring in anything heavy from home in order to form a make shift weight room. If you look at Strake's priorities not should this team not be a champion, but they should not be competitive

[AZTiger]

I'm pretty sure Long Beach Poly isnt a real wealthy school either.

[slcgrad]

Are we talking about football?

Fair enough but the question of whether there is a positive correlation between money and facilities and success of programs exists. In Coppell's case it appears that it does.

[drgnbkr]

And now...I scratch my head and ponder. It could go the other way. Can I take both sides and just kind of "bow out gracefully?" Thought not!

Good stuff guys!

chz

Your right..it could go the other way, but in Southlake it absolutely went the opposite way....& it sounds similar in Katy..I can't help but find it interesting that a private shool guy is coming up with all of this...I assume he is?

[dragonfootballfan]

Fair enough but the question of whether there is a positive correlation between money and facilities and success of programs exists. In Coppell's case it appears that it does.
Go back and look at the first post. It implies that we are talking about just football. Other sports are different.

[drgnbkr]

never been there, where is one located in southlake?

There is a Pappadeaux in Bedford at Central & 183..right accross from Pennington..nearest Pappasitas is probably either in Arlington, in front of six flags or Stemmons & Loop 12..they have a Pappasitas, Pappadeaux, Pappas BBQ, Pappas Brothers Steak House...just overrun with Pappasstuf!

[AZTiger]

the best is Pappa's Seafood House

[drgnbkr]

the best is Pappa's Seafood House

Yeah..it's great! They have the touch of gold...

[AZTiger]

Yeah..it's great! They have the touch of gold...

no no no, that's me!

okay, this is going way off track, back on topic

StrakeDrake YOU'RE WRONG!

[Tut]

Your right..it could go the other way, but in Southlake it absolutely went the opposite way....& it sounds similar in Katy..I can't help but find it interesting that a private shool guy is coming up with all of this...I assume he is?

StrakeDrake is an expert on everything. You won't win an argument because he always has a comeback. Yes, Strake Jesuit is a private school which has been in UIL for two years.

[AZTiger]

StrakeDrake is an expert on everything. You won't win an argument because he always has a comeback. Yes, Strake Jesuit is a private school which has been in UIL for two years.


B.S., he's not winning this one. No way did Katy get good because of money.

[Tut]

B.S., he's not winning this one. No way did Katy get good because of money.
Good luck AZ. I know that your order of priorities is right, but Drake will find something to prove himself correct. (real or imagined)

[drgnbkr]

B.S., he's not winning this one. No way did Katy get good because of money.

Again, Carroll has been good for a long time...Our QB in 92 rode bulls..think he was'nt tough? 5'9" 160# & would run right over ya!....:eek:

[AZTiger]

funny how both our schools have the country/farm town rep

[drgnbkr]

Stephenville still has it..they are tough! Lot of schools like that...Texas HS Football...gotta love it!

[rangerpride]

B.S., he's not winning this one. No way did Katy get good because of money.
Same goes for SV. When I attended SV, we had several top athletes in middle school that eventually "transferred" to New Braunfels or New Braunfels-Canyon so they could play for winning teams in sports like football.

People are saying winning leads to more winning; well the same can be said for losing. In the case of SV in the 80's & early 90's, losing led to more losing. SV had NEVER been to the playoffs EVER in any classification until Coach Hill arrived. His first year, the team went 1-9. That team was stripped of athletic talent. Many of the top athletes from that senior class had transferred to other schools or quit football to play basketball or soccer, because they were tired of 1-9 and 2-8 seasons.

The next year, SV sneaks into the playoffs for the first year ever (with crappy facilities and lesser talent,) and next thing you know everyone wants to play football again from the 10th & 11th graders on down to the 6 year olds.

YMCA and Pop Warner football leagues began to EXPLODE in the community, whereas soccer and baseball were the dominant sports for ages 12 & under in the pre-Larry Hill days. These youth leagues began running Coach Hill's offense and defense and now we have the well oiled machine that is SV consistently winning every year. Even in so called "rebuilding" years, like 2004, SV makes deep playoff runs.

Now, obviously SV is better off economically than they were when I attended, but money and/or facilities are definitely not the reason for their success. The new field house, the practice fields, and eventually the turf, (the stadium is still considered one of the crappiest in 5A) all came AFTER a few years of winning seasons. I believe student work ethic, parents pushing their kids to excel, great coaching, a strong CONSISTENT training program from age 10-18 in the art of football (through YMCA/Pop Warner. Jr High, etc.) and then ATHLETIC TALENT are the key factors to the success of a program (in that order). Money and facilities do help, but they do not play as big of a role as some would like you to believe.

[AZTiger]

coaching + work ethic ---> winning ----> community support ------> traditons ------> better facilities and/or money

[CLFalcon2006]

I can prove that money isn't everything and that it is nothing more than just another factor...

Clear Lake experinced success in the early 90's and 2000's. Among those teams was a state championship contender in 2004. I've been in the facilities for all Lake athletics (except girls, theres laws against that now). The weights and work out equipment used in 2004 were mostly dated to the 80's and some have even been around since the schools founding in 1973. It was some of the worst equipment ever. There were articles in the chronicle and local papers about rats and vermin problems in the locker rooms. The conditions were absolutley deplorable. After the state semi final run in 2004, all the locker rooms and equipment were updated. We have these really nice weights and machines now and they were used by the team for the 05 season, the same season were we went 2-8. It would seem that money isn't everything.

As for StrakeDrakes order of winning i would have to put it like this

1. Coaching- A bad coach can kill a team in HS, college, and the pro's. They are the men that help shape or continue a tradition. They build ethics, straqtegy, which in turn leads to winning and community support. Coaches are always the kingpin of sports.

2. Desire- Without a desire to win you have nothing. If you go out onto a field with a lackluster attitude, your gonna play lack luster. One of the reasons Katy and SLC kids play so good is because they Desire to win.

3. Strategy- Offenisve and defensive schemes can make teams into winners. Lake used to run a spread offense and now and since 03 we've run the option heres how things have turned out

Preoption Rush Yds Pass Yds Rush TD's Pass TD's Win-Loss
2001 1211 978 7 5 2-8
2002 998 1668 3 16 5-5

Postoption
2003 2654 364 33 4 9-2
2004 3013 398 39 3 13-2
2005 3145 366 27 4 2-8

Even though we had a 2-8 record in 05, we still lead 24-5A in offense. It also brings me to my next point...

4. Atheletes- Without them we don't have sports. Good atheletes do make a team. In 03 and 04 we had damn good, experinced players. In 05 we had a bunch of inexperinced guys and some of them just didn't have the talent and skill that last years players had.

5. Community Support- If you've ever played NCAA football then you know just how big a factor the crowd and can be. A team will be more willing to play and work hard for a community that shows up to its games, and supports it. Katy, SLC, Judson, SV, all those top notch programs bring THOUSANDS of supporters with them wehre ever they go. The players have to be pumped to play for their town.

6. Ethics- Hard work is key in any sport. You have to come to practice, listen to the coaches, admit your mistakes. A lack of ethics from even just one player can break a team, just ask Terell Owens and the Eagles.

7. Winning Tradition- A winning tadition doesn't guarantee wins. All teams have bad years. A winning tradition jsut means that maybe a few players might move to your area to be part of a traditon. Not to metion your current players are willing to oush themselves a little further to live up to the greatness of the past. No one wants to be remembered as "that one bad team".

8. Facilites and Money- Facilites and money do help. They do not guarantee wins. We got new facilites this year and we go 2-8. Galveston Ball went 8-2 (regardless of an inneligble player) and they don't have the facilites that SLC or other schools have. Same goes for Yates who is year and year out a power weather they play in 5A or 4A. Money helps but it doesn't guarantee anything.

Thank you to everyone for keeping a thread that could spiral out of control clean. Lets keep this up.

[CLFalcon2006]

I like Pappas

Just thought i'd let yall know that...

[Tut]

coaching + work ethic ---> winning ----> community support ------> traditons ------> better facilities and/or money
The middle three might be in no particular order. I've heard that Katy had support before. Maybe you can enlighten me as I just started closely following the Tigers in 1998 when my oldest daughter started high school.

[AZTiger]

1. Coaching- A bad coach can kill a team in HS, college, and the pro's. They are the men that help shape or continue a tradition. They build ethics, straqtegy, which in turn leads to winning and community support. Coaches are always the kingpin of sports.

I know what Drake's response will be, and it's that money buys good coaches.

Well, there are a LOT of upstart coaches, guys who want to be like the Todd Dodges and the Mike Johnstons and the Larry Hills of the world. It takes a lot of balls to take less money and go to a losing program and bring it back. However, there are still some out that there can and will do it, and KUDOS to those guys.

[AZTiger]

The middle three might be in no particular order. I've heard that Katy had support before. Maybe you can enlighten me as I just started closely following the Tigers in 1998 when my oldest daughter started high school.

Well, to tell you the truth, I actually called me mom tonight and asked her "hey when we sucked in the late 70s and early 80s did people still go to the games?"

she said "well yeah, it was the only show in town"

[CLFalcon2006]

Same goes for SV. When I attended SV, we had several top athletes in middle school that eventually "transferred" to New Braunfels or New Braunfels-Canyon so they could play for winning teams in sports like football.

People are saying winning leads to more winning; well the same can be said for losing. In the case of SV in the 80's & early 90's, losing led to more losing. SV had NEVER been to the playoffs EVER in any classification until Coach Hill arrived. His first year, the team went 1-9. That team was stripped of athletic talent. Many of the top athletes from that senior class had transferred to other schools or quit football to play basketball or soccer, because they were tired of 1-9 and 2-8 seasons.

The next year, SV sneaks into the playoffs for the first year ever (with crappy facilities and lesser talent,) and next thing you know everyone wants to play football again from the 10th & 11th graders on down to the 6 year olds.

YMCA and Pop Warner football leagues began to EXPLODE in the community, whereas soccer and baseball were the dominant sports for ages 12 & under in the pre-Larry Hill days. These youth leagues began running Coach Hill's offense and defense and now we have the well oiled machine that is SV consistently winning every year. Even in so called "rebuilding" years, like 2004, SV makes deep playoff runs.

Now, obviously SV is better off economically than they were when I attended, but money and/or facilities are definitely not the reason for their success. The new field house, the practice fields, and eventually the turf, (the stadium is still considered one of the crappiest in 5A) all came AFTER a few years of winning seasons. I believe student work ethic, parents pushing their kids to excel, great coaching, a strong CONSISTENT training program from age 10-18 in the art of football (through YMCA/Pop Warner. Jr High, etc.) and then ATHLETIC TALENT are the key factors to the success of a program (in that order). Money and facilities do help, but they do not play as big of a role as some would like you to believe.

Your right ranger (I just agreed with a SV person:eek: ) one good run can make a team. Pearland was a cellar deweler for years, they had a few playoff apperances and all the kids grew up wanting to be oilers. Now the full potential for that programs is being reached. Coach Heath is a great coach, they all have the desire to win (read the northshore v pearland threads if you want to question that). They have good strategy and great atheletes. Their community has done a great job of supporting them (read those NS v pearland threads again). Their ethics are superb and they have built up a nice little tradition. They have good facilites, nothing great but their good.

We've also seen an increase in pre-high school football interest. Every HS game is crowded with little kids still in pads and jersey's from the games they just finished. The junior high fields are twice as crowded than i remember them. All of this is a result of those 2 good season we had in 03 and 04.

[CLFalcon2006]

Well, to tell you the truth, I actually called me mom tonight and asked her "hey when we sucked in the late 70s and early 80s did people still go to the games?"

she said "well yeah, it was the only show in town"

You'll find a whole lot more community support in smaller towns like Longview, Lufkin, etc. Euless, SLC, and Katy might be suburbs now but they used to be small towns themselves. Community support comes in 2 ways. A it has always been there like in the previouslyt mentioned towns. B It is built through mulitple winning seasons and great programs, Like North Shore and Yates.

[Chazzz]

Thank you to everyone for keeping a thread that could spiral out of control clean. Lets keep this up.

Nice post.

[Drake]

Sorry, was off shopping... Notice that the thread turned into another attack on me personally because certain individuals are obstinately intolerant of opinions that differ from theirs... Oh well...

I have not seen any argument that has convinced me that there is something inherently better about the kids that play at the dominant schools other than they get more and better players than most of the other schools for any number of reasons, most of which can be traced to money... One person brought up North Shore... Well, North Shore may not have the resources that SLC has, but they certainly apply the resources they have towards athletics, particulary North Shore football (some of the nicest facilities in the area) and the same goes for Katy.

I'm sure there are exceptions and a few have been pointed out. But why is anyone offended by my opinion? The teams that win every year do so because it a high priority and they do what it takes to stay on top, including spend the money... Whats wrong with that?

[AZTiger]

I'm sure there are exceptions and a few have been pointed out. But why is anyone offended by my opinion? The teams that win every year do so because it a high priority and they do what it takes to stay on top, including spend the money... Whats wrong with that?

Okay this I can't really disagree with, but it's only NOW that the money is being spent.

This personal attacks are in jest, really.

I have not seen any argument that has convinced me that there is something inherently better about the kids that play at the dominant schools other than they get more and better players than most of the other schools for any number of reasons, most of which can be traced to money...

See, again, you're showing your ignorance. Kids growing up watching these successful teams don't say "I wanna be a Katy Tiger when I grow up" because they have money, because kids that age don't even know what money can do for a program.

Let me ask you a question, do you have kids at Strake? If they didn't go there where would they be going to school? I'm just gonna take a SWAG (scientifically wild assed guess) that you don't really have any experience with these successful programs other than what you read on this board? I would love to invite you to spend a day with Coach Joseph or Coach Johnston, or any of the SLC old timers who've been there since the 80s, and let you tell them your beliefs, because I guarantee they'd laugh in your face.

The kids at these schools ARE better than those at the other programs because of the values their coaches have instilled in them. I feel that I myself am a better person for playing in the Katy football program, and if ktchamp97 would crawl out of his hole here and back me up ;) you'd see that we all feel the same way. I spoke with a captain from the 2003 team last night, and we were talking about football, and he said to me "man, i'm so proud to be a part of the katy family."

Man.....pull your head out....MONEY CAN NOT BUY THAT!!!!!!!!!

[Drake]

Same goes for SV. When I attended SV, we had several top athletes in middle school that eventually "transferred" to New Braunfels or New Braunfels-Canyon so they could play for winning teams in sports like football. Right! They transferred to play in programs that were more committed to winning.

People are saying winning leads to more winning; well the same can be said for losing. In the case of SV in the 80's & early 90's, losing led to more losing. SV had NEVER been to the playoffs EVER in any classification until Coach Hill arrived. His first year, the team went 1-9. That team was stripped of athletic talent. Many of the top athletes from that senior class had transferred to other schools or quit football to play basketball or soccer, because they were tired of 1-9 and 2-8 seasons. Right! SV made a commitment to improving by spending the money to hire a better coach.

The next year, SV sneaks into the playoffs for the first year ever (with crappy facilities and lesser talent,) and next thing you know everyone wants to play football again from the 10th & 11th graders on down to the 6 year olds. Right! Because of the commitment the community responds by making football a priority in the community.

YMCA and Pop Warner football leagues began to EXPLODE in the community, whereas soccer and baseball were the dominant sports for ages 12 & under in the pre-Larry Hill days. These youth leagues began running Coach Hill's offense and defense and now we have the well oiled machine that is SV consistently winning every year. Even in so called "rebuilding" years, like 2004, SV makes deep playoff runs. Right! The parents decided the time and costs (uniforms, helmets and pads aint cheap) were worth it because football became much more important.

Now, obviously SV is better off economically than they were when I attended, but money and/or facilities are definitely not the reason for their success. The new field house, the practice fields, and eventually the turf, (the stadium is still considered one of the crappiest in 5A) all came AFTER a few years of winning seasons. I believe student work ethic, parents pushing their kids to excel, great coaching, a strong CONSISTENT training program from age 10-18 in the art of football (through YMCA/Pop Warner. Jr High, etc.) and then ATHLETIC TALENT are the key factors to the success of a program (in that order). Money and facilities do help, but they do not play as big of a role as some would like you to believe.Right! All these things are important to a winning program, thats why everyone in the community is okay with all the time and money spent on all the things you mention.
Thanks for helping me out Ranger...

[Drake]

I feel that I myself am a better person for playing in the Katy football program, and if ktchamp97 would crawl out of his hole here and back me up ;) you'd see that we all feel the same way.Do you feel you are a better person than you would have been had you played somewhere else, or if you had not played at all?

[rwilleby]

The teams that win every year do so because it a high priority and they do what it takes to stay on top, including spend the money... Whats wrong with that?
I copied this from the Katy board... Read this and you might see what many of us in Katy see...

"There is a little 4th grade boy that our family met a few years ago when my better half was still coaching youth football. This little boy befriended my hubby and daughter (who was also on the team) and they have remained close to this day. Now this little boy does not live in the Katy attendance zone, but due to his love of football, attended his first Katy game vs. Cinco last year. Well, it was love at first sight. Needless to say we get these phone calls during the year..." coach can I go to the game," or if we know that it will be a really good one we call, and off he comes with us.

Well, this past Sat. was no different... and off we all went, ready for the usual Katy experience. Of corse, the running joke is that he is not going to go to his high school, he is going to go to Katy...(well, we adults know that his parents can not move and that he will go to another kisd highschool, just as his siblings have), but we listen to the chatter, amazed at the plottings and plannings of a 10 year old... trying to figure a way to be in the correct attendance zone by the time his 8th grade year comes around. It amazes us, how such a young boy could have such a great love of a team.

Well, as the game progressed, and when things looked darkest... this little boy would scream at the top of his lungs, "we are still in this, we can still win this". Of course, all the adults around him would exchange those "knowing glances". We knew that the point difference was a problem... we knew that time was against us... but this little boy kept telling me, we are still in this, we can still win!

Well, in the last miraclous 3 minutes of our now famous comeback... this little boy kept screaming "KEEP TRYING... KEEP GOING... WE CAN DO IT!" as if he was willing this team to finish on top. And when they did... he kept telling my daughter, "that will be me someday.... that will be me someday!!! I AM A KATY TIGER, AND THAT WILL BE ME SOMEDAY!!!"

It was at that moment that we witnessed that "IT" that so many people on this board talk about. What is IT, what does Katy have, what is IT? It is the love of team, the love of community, the love of brother. It was in that moment that we saw those men in red on the field as the 10 year old little boys that they once were, watching those before them saying "that will be me one day". It was sheer passion, pride and determination that willed those boys on the field on sat., to overcome what to most, was unsermountable odds, and we saw the spark of that tiger flame, in the eyes of that little boy in the stands that afternoon."

That Sir, is not about money... But it is PRICELESS...

[AZTiger]

Do you feel you are a better person than you would have been had you played somewhere else, or if you had not played at all?

yes, absolutely.

[Drake]

yes, absolutely.LOL Which one?

[AZTiger]

LOL Which one?

yes, absolutely as in...

yes, no doubt genius ;)

[Drake]

AZ... Why is it that recruiters give way more football scholarships to kids from Yates or Madison than they give to Katy players?

Wanna know? Because they know that once they give them what you got, they'll be much better football players than you are... Those things include the best coaches, the best equipment, and the best facilities... all of which can be bought.

[Drake]

yes, absolutely as in...

yes, no doubt genius ;)I gave you two choices... "Yes" wasn't a clear answer...

[AZTiger]

I gave you two choices... "Yes" wasn't a clear answer...

c'mon....you're smarter than that you've gotta be

yes to both

[AZTiger]

AZ... Why is it that recruiters give way more football scholarships to kids from Yates or Madison than they give to Katy players?

Wanna know? Because they know that once they give them what you got, they'll be much better football players than you are... Those things include the best coaches, the best equipment, and the best facilities... all of which can be bought.

hey Oh Ignorant one, did it every occur to you we don't have the athletes those schools have?

No, that wouldn't help your argument, of course you wouldnt consider it.

[dragonfootballfan]

So all of those examples of teams winning without money, nor the teams losing with money, have not shown that money is not the primary asset to forming a winning team?

[AZTiger]

and by the way drake, i'm not going away. you may drive some others to just quit with you, but you're so wrong with this that i'm not stopping

[Drake]

and by the way drake, i'm not going away. you may drive some others to just quit with you, but you're so wrong with this that i'm not stoppingshow me

[AZTiger]

show me

we have been, all night, you just refuse to accept it. we've answered every one of your little "myths" with fact

[AZTiger]

again, i bring a oh-so-important part of a previous post you conviniently ignored...

Let me ask you a question, do you have kids at Strake? If they didn't go there where would they be going to school? I'm just gonna take a SWAG (scientifically wild assed guess) that you don't really have any experience with these successful programs other than what you read on this board? I would love to invite you to spend a day with Coach Joseph or Coach Johnston, or any of the SLC old timers who've been there since the 80s, and let you tell them your beliefs, because I guarantee they'd laugh in your face.

[Drake]

AZ... Why is it that Cinco excels so much in track and field? Is it heart and desire and something about those people that they WILL themselves to run faster and jump higher? Or is it a commitment including money, that affords them top flight coaching facilities to attract the better T&F athletes in the area to try and go there?

[AZTiger]

i can't answer that. track coaching probably matters the least out of any sport in high school. you're either fast or you're not.

Hey you're fast, take the baton from that guy and run faster than the guy next to you.

bad example....you got anymore?

[AZTiger]

and cinco was blessed with several kids who had been there since the beginning, no move ins. those seniors last year had been there since the beginning. they just happened to be REALLY fast guys.

last i checked there are some REALLY poor schools who do really well at track, but you don't see the fastest kids from The Woodlands or Kingwood moving to Forest Brook now do you?

[Drake]

AZ... Why is it that Katy doesn't end up in the finals in baseball or basketball every year? Aren't they drinking the same water as the football players? Perhaps the same emphasis on winning is NOT put on these programs... In fact, I know it's not as I attended a Katy varsity basketball game Monday... You guys had about 14 people there not including players...

[dragonfootballfan]

AZ... Why is it that Cinco excels so much in track and field? Is it heart and desire and something about those people that they WILL themselves to run faster and jump higher? Or is it a commitment including money, that affords them top flight coaching facilities to attract the better T&F athletes in the area to try and go there?
I thought that this discussion was about football, not track and field. Those sports are incredibly different.

[dragonfootballfan]

AZ... Why is it that Katy doesn't end up in the finals in baseball or basketball every year? Aren't they drinking the same water as the football players? Perhaps the same emphasis on winning is NOT put on these programs... In fact, I know it's not as I attended a Katy varsity basketball game Monday... You guys had about 14 people there not including players...
basketball and baseball are not football

[rwilleby]

AZ... Why is it that Katy doesn't end up in the finals in baseball or basketball every year? Aren't they drinking the same water as the football players? Perhaps the same emphasis on winning is NOT put on these programs... In fact, I know it's not as I attended a Katy varsity basketball game Monday... You guys had about 14 people there not including players...
Why do you have such a dislike for Katy?

[KatyTigerDad0407]

and by the way drake, i'm not going away. you may drive some others to just quit with you, but you're so wrong with this that i'm not stoppingWhere is Fleeman93? Strake, AZTiger wears no blinders when it comes to Katy. He is the most impartial Katy poster on the board. He sounds very convicted in his beliefs. I don't think you can take away his high school expierience as it has definitely shaped him into who he is today.

[AZTiger]

AZ... Why is it that Katy doesn't end up in the finals in baseball or basketball every year? Aren't they drinking the same water as the football players? Perhaps the same emphasis on winning is NOT put on these programs... In fact, I know it's not as I attended a Katy varsity basketball game Monday... You guys had about 14 people there not including players...

we were good in basketball for a 5 year period from 94 to 98, that the only time we've been blessed with incredibly good basketball players, including one that was a starter at Virginia. we had a coach who now coaches at westfield, and they are a top basketball program, so we've had good coaches in the past here, but he was also here when we had our most talented team.

and stick to the topic, we're talking football, no? if you wanna discuss other sports, take it to the appropriate forum or go talk to your Strake chronies about it.

[AZTiger]

Where is Fleeman93? Strake, AZTiger wears no blinders when it comes to Katy. He is the most impartial Katy poster on the board. He sounds very convicted in his beliefs. I don't think you can take away his high school expierience as it has definitely shaped him into who he is today.

thanks, and i know when ktchamp gets here in the morning, the support will just increase.

[Drake]

The point is... You get where you want to be with money, whether its hiring the right coach, buying 3rd graders $200 worth of football equipment, updating the weightroom, taking off work early to coach your sons Pop Warner team, whatever... Someone is paying for it...

I'm willing to bet Coach Joseph and Coach Dodge are in the upper echelon of salaries and perks in the state... Don't you think having more to spend on a coach is an advantage?

[CLFalcon2006]

it costs money to do track? Running is free, and the baton might cost all of $3.

[CLFalcon2006]

Strake and AZ, lets keep this clean I'm surprised a thread on class differences has gotten this far in the first place. Don't get something with so many good opinions and information locked up because of this old Strake v Katy rivalry from mid-season.

[AZTiger]

Don't you think having more to spend on a coach is an advantage?

sure, it CAN

Like I said earlier, around the state, young coaches with those same beliefs of strong work ethics and accountability will take a job for less money and build up a struggling program by building it around work ethic and community support, not the ol' greenbacks.

[AZTiger]

Strake and AZ, lets keep this clean I'm surprised a thread on class differences has gotten this far in the first place. Don't get something with so many good opinions and information locked up because of this old Strake v Katy rivalry from mid-season.

It's not going there. I actually used to like StrakeDrake, and he used to like us, when we were showing up in masses to support the Crusaders in their playoff games. But ever since they lost its been "hate Katy" all over again.

And for that midseason thing, I hated the fact that so many katy fans were crying about the venue. that was embarassing.

its clean, and this is good discussion, just something i'm passionate about.

[Drake]

we were good in basketball for a 5 year period from 94 to 98, that the only time we've been blessed with incredibly good basketball players, including one that was a starter at Virginia. we had a coach who now coaches at westfield, and they are a top basketball program, so we've had good coaches in the past here, but he was also here when we had our most talented team.

and stick to the topic, we're talking football, no? if you wanna discuss other sports, take it to the appropriate forum or go talk to your Strake chronies about it.I'm using other sports to make a point... If Katy kids have the heart of champions, then why don't they win in other sports?

KatyDad... I'm not doubting how proud he is of his time at Katy or that the experience had a great positive influence on him... And although I'm using Katy as an example alot, I'm not attacking them at all, just the opposite... Just trying to say that Katy, like North Shore with their 'stangs and many other programs in the state, identifies itself as a community through their high school football program and because of it they dedicate lots of resources to achieve and/or maintain the excellence... I see nothing wrong with it at all... Just don't want anyone trying to BS me into thinking its some mystical aura that's there, but can't be explained....

[dragonfootballfan]

I'm willing to bet Coach Joseph and Coach Dodge are in the upper echelon of salaries and perks in the state... Don't you think having more to spend on a coach is an advantage?
up until this year Coach Dodge was one of the lowest paid coaches in the Metroplex. I know he recently got a raise, but I don't know how much he makes now.

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Strake and AZ, lets keep this clean I'm surprised a thread on class differences has gotten this far in the first place. Don't get something with so many good opinions and information locked up because of this old Strake v Katy rivalry from mid-season. This thead is not going there. Both Strake and AZ are soundly convicted in their arguements and have not regressed in making their points.

[dragonfootballfan]

I'm using other sports to make a point... If Katy kids have the heart of champions, then why don't they win in other sports?


Football is different than those sports, because it requires much more players. In football there are 22 starters add in special teamers and scout teamers and you have more than 40 contributors. Not all 40 can be extremely talented and that is where the heart, desire, etc come into play. In all of the sports that you mentioned if you have a small group of talented individuals they can become that team.

[Drake]

Strake and AZ, lets keep this clean I'm surprised a thread on class differences has gotten this far in the first place. Don't get something with so many good opinions and information locked up because of this old Strake v Katy rivalry from mid-season.Huh? He hasn't mentioned Strake Jesuit and I'm only using Katy and North Shore because they're the only elite programs I know anything about... Has nothing to do with Strake v Katy... Has to do with his opinion (which I respect) vs. mine and/or anyone else's that wants to join in...

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Huh? He hasn't mentioned Strake Jesuit and I'm only using Katy and North Shore because they're the only elite programs I know anything about... Has nothing to do with Strake v Katy... Has to do with his opinion (which I respect) vs. mine and/or anyone else's that wants to join in...I got your back on that one Strake. Already took care of it.

[dragonfootballfan]

Huh? He hasn't mentioned Strake Jesuit and I'm only using Katy and North Shore because they're the only elite programs I know anything about... Has nothing to do with Strake v Katy... Has to do with his opinion (which I respect) vs. mine and/or anyone else's that wants to join in...
you only know about these two elite programs. Maybe you should find out about more of them before you say that all elite programs must have money to get to that level

[AZTiger]

Just don't want anyone trying to BS me into thinking its some mystical aura that's there, but can't be explained....

well, you'll just have to take our word for it that it's not BS. I hate to quote the old A&M saying "from the inside you can't explain it, from the outside you can't understand it"....but that's the best way to describe it.

I'll tell you why I'm so passionate against the whole "money made your team what it is" thing....we're not that kind of community, at all. You talk about resources for football and all that, well, it's not like the football has brand new stuff and the other sports are using 1960's equipment. My senior year we had a new field house, new basketball gym, new girls sports locker rooms, EVERYTHING. It wasn't JUST football. You picked out basketball, but check baseball, softball, soccer....all successful programs, and have been for a long time. Katy's been successful in softball since it's introduction to UIL sports in the early 90s.

Again, I've got to go back to this....when those guys are sweatin their ***** off in the mat room in February and March, yelling at each other to go just a bit further, make themselves better, Donald Trump can't even buy that. At Katy the idea has always been that to be the best you're gonna need just a bit more than the guy across from you, shinier pads or a nicer locker doesn't help you make that game saving tackle or that block that springs the big run.

[Drake]

you only know about these two elite programs. Maybe you should find out about more of them before you say that all elite programs must have money to get to that levelSince I only know a few elite programs, why don't you tell me which of the other elite programs DOESN'T have a well paid coaching staff, ISN'T well supported by the community with very organized youth leagues, active booster clubs, parents that miss work, and good facilities... Since all these things attract the best players, which elite program is doing it all without these advantages? If you know any, it aint many...

[AZTiger]

Since I only know a few elite programs, why don't you tell me which of the other elite programs DOESN'T have a well paid coachin staff, ISN'T well supported by the community with very organized youth leagues, active booster clubs, parents that miss work, and good facilities... Since all these things attract the best players, which elite program is doing it all without these advantages? If you know any, it aint many...

okay, but go back to what your original stance was....and that was that money is the start of all this. if you'd look at my first few posts after you posted your little money ---> etc... thing, you'd see that's all i was arguing.

of course the programs that have been winning have that now... you just had the reasons why out of order

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Strake, you went out to watch the FB Clements vs Fb Marshall at Hall stadium right? I would venture to say that is big time money invested over there. While already having Mercer stadium, 205a went out and built that mammouth. They have invested a ton in football. Where are the power houses in 205a? Also, as far as Katy goes, my God, they have to be one of the poorest schools in KISD. Not to say they are bad off, but they are still small town compared to the likes of the other Monsters in the district.

[Drake]

AZ... Katy, SLC, North Shore, etc win because they have great coaches and they have the largest talent pools... Simple as that... You may say, well Katy didn't have that many D1 players and thats true, but when you get 150-200 out for football with each freshman class, you have a deep talent pool... All I'm saying is (getting tired)... It takes a community commitment (that includes lots of time and money) to build that kind of program... I think its great that you guys have it... I grew up in Baytown and we had it in the 70's, now we don't...

Its my opinion that it takes a commitment of resources to win like the elite programs have and that there shouldn't be a feeling of superiority just because some communities can't or won't make that commitment. Just be thankful yours does since you love football so much...

[AZTiger]

well, all I was tryin to say is, it didn't start like that. it started by a committment from our coaches.

I'll leave with this quote from Coach Johnston, and I think when you read it you'll understand why I feel that myself and other Katy players are better people for sticking to it for 4 years...

"In this day and time, it is easy to look out for No. 1, but if you do that, then only you and maybe your immediate family are happy for you. Sports is more than just winning. Sure, you want to win, but this is a tool to teach young men how to become leaders -- good husbands and good fathers. If you're going to be a good husband and father, then you have to learn how to put somebody before you. That's what we teach. When we're all working towards the same goal, then the individual success will take care of itself. That's why we play so many kids. They're all important to us."

and I'm out, work comes a calling tomorrow.

[Drake]

Dad... I've seen the katy youth leagues... There's thousands of kids playing and they all have NFL uniforms, expensive helmets and pads, great fields, etc... Now THAT is a time (time IS money) and money commitment by the community to Katy football... I'd venture to guess that you won't see similar in many places, including the FB feeder communities...

[AZTiger]

Dad... I've seen the katy youth leagues... There's thousands of kids playing and they all have NFL uniforms, expensive helmets and pads, great fields, etc... Now THAT is a time (time IS money) and money commitment by the community to Katy football... I'd venture to guess that you won't see similar in many places, including the FB feeder communities...

yes, BUT, keep in mind, all those kids don't go to Katy HS, they are spread throughout the entire district

(damn it, I told myself I'm going to bed)

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Its my opinion that it takes a commitment of resources to win like the elite programs have and that there shouldn't be a feeling of superiority just because some communities can't or won't make that commitment. Just be thankful yours does since you love football so much...I agree with everything you say in this quote. There are people that do feel superior and that is ashamed. But it is not the whole community. Most of us feel really blessed because our children get to participate in the success. But you are right. Some of us could use a big dose of humility.

[Drake]

yes, BUT, keep in mind, all those kids don't go to Katy HS, they are spread throughout the entire district

(damn it, I told myself I'm going to bed)No, just the good ones do... ;)

Anyway, I guess we've beat this one to death, but its been enlightening for me... As always, you Katy and SLC guys make excellent points... Katy has a great program, so does SLC and many others... Certainly there is a bit of envy as I am a big hs football fan too... But I mean no disrespect because your teams deserve nothing but admiration...

[AZTiger]

No, just the good ones do... ;)

Anyway, I guess we've beat this one to death, but its been enlightening for me... As always, you Katy and SLC guys make excellent points... Katy has a great program, so does SLC and many others... Certainly there is a bit of envy as I am a big hs football fan too... But I mean no disrespect because your teams deserve nothing but admiration...

you never did answer my question as to whether you had kids at strake, and where would they have gone if they didnt go there?

and thanks for your kind words....and acceptance of defeat ;) (sorry, for some strange reason i'm on a power kick tonight)

[Drake]

you never did answer my question as to whether you had kids at strake, and where would they have gone if they didnt go there?

and thanks for your kind words....and acceptance of defeat ;) (sorry, for some strange reason I'm on a power kick tonight)Yeah, have a sophomore at Strake Jesuit... He attended one semester at Baytown Lee before tranfering to SJ.

[AZTiger]

oh, good job gettin him outta there, Coach Olin is a dickhead :)

[Drake]

oh, good job gettin him outta there, Coach Olin is a dickhead :)I just think he's misunderstood...lol

[AZTiger]

ha ha ha ha, now THATS funny