Thougts on when an enrollment is too large?

[farmerfan]

Ok, I hope this does not turn into a Plano-Garland or farmer-Allen pissing match. That said. When should districts consider building another HS or is letting your enrollment get up into the 4500-5700 range healthy?
We know of the mega schools in Allen, Plano, East, West, Skyline and some Houston ones as well. Is it right to let the schools just keep getting bigger and bigger or should they cap enrollment at say 3500 or something around that range.

[twcpfan1]

Ok, I hope this does not turn into a Plano-Garland or farmer-Allen pissing match. That said. When should districts consider building another HS or is letting your enrollment get up into the 4500-5700 range healthy?
We know of the mega schools in Allen, Plano, East, West, Skyline and some Houston ones as well. Is it right to let the schools just keep getting bigger and bigger or should they cap enrollment at say 3500 or something around that range.

From a quality education POV, 2500 - 3000 would be a good cap

[farmerfan]

From a quality education POV, 2500 - 3000 would be a good cap

I would be interested in reading some studies that have been done on this. I am sure somebody has been granted some research funds for such a study.

[Fleeman93]

1,000 or 10,000 it just depends on if the kids can get a good quality education.

[twcpfan1]

1,000 or 10,000 it just depends on if the kids can get a good quality education.

Part of getting a good HS education is a tight knit student body. Hard to achieve that with 7000 - 10000 kids. They'll be a miniature fish in a large ocean soon enough when they get to College.

[CCHS77]

From a quality education POV, 2500 - 3000 would be a good cap

Frisco ISD would disagree with your numbers. They have vowed to manage explosive growth with 4A sized High Schools only. (Looks like that would be from about 1500 to 1700)

I say let the taxpayers decide. As much as it insults "our" sense of right and wrong, it's the individual ISD's cross to bear.

My $.02

[odessapermian.com]

I don't think the enrollment is an issue if you have the room and the staff to teach them.

Permian has around 2150 students and as far as I can recall that is about as many kids as they can cram in the campus.

[twcpfan1]

Frisco ISD would disagree with your numbers. They have vowed to manage explosive growth with 4A sized High Schools only. (Looks like that would be from about 1500 to 1700)

I say let the taxpayers decide. As much as it insults "our" sense of right and wrong, it's the individual ISD's cross to bear.

My $.02




Let's be reasonable here. We still want to be able to play football in the highest classification :D

At some point football deserves some consideration :D

[DrEdward]

I would be interested in reading some studies that have been done on this. I am sure somebody has been granted some research funds for such a study.

There is a rather extensive body of literature available on the topic of school size and academic achievement. I haven't looked at it recently, but did a pretty extensive review of the literature and the application to the Carroll ISD when we were going through the two high school debate back around 2000. If you would like a copy of it, I will be delighted to provide it for you. I think I have a copy of it in pdf format, but I would have to go find it. Otherwise, it is a hard copy.

Most of the literature on school size and acdemic performance has been done in large cities or in areas with economically challenged populations. The findings from these studies is generally that smaller schools are preferred to larger ones. The studies suggest, as I recall, that the optimal size high school is somewhere around what would be 3A size in Texas. There is, however, a very important caveat on that finding. It is also the case empirically that where the community is relatively affluent, the size limitations are no where near as important. Not unimportant, just not nearly as much of a constraint as exist in areas with other sociodemographic characteristics.

[farmerfan]

There is a rather extensive body of literature available on the topic of school size and academic achievement. I haven't looked at it recently, but did a pretty extensive review of the literature and the application to the Carroll ISD when we were going through the two high school debate back around 2000. If you would like a copy of it, I will be delighted to provide it for you. I think I have a copy of it in pdf format, but I would have to go find it. Otherwise, it is a hard copy.

Most of the literature on school size and acdemic performance has been done in large cities or in areas with economically challenged populations. The findings from these studies is generally that smaller schools are preferred to larger ones. The studies suggest, as I recall, that the optimal size high school is somewhere around what would be 3A size in Texas. There is, however, a very important caveat on that finding. It is also the case empirically that where the community is relatively affluent, the size limitations are no where near as important. Not unimportant, just not nearly as much of a constraint as exist in areas with other sociodemographic characteristics.

That would be an interesting read. I would love a copy.

[tjw]

Here's a LINK (http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pi/hs/schoolsize.html) about this and for large size schools like Allen where the city has decided on one school and built the school to support this. Allen is really like 6 smaller High Schools with 6 houses of about 800 students each. As the article states this gives the academic benefits of smaller schools while maintaining one school and town spirit. Not saying its the best or if Allen can maintain this? Allen is about 90% built out so do not see it changing and do believe they are looking at a new house as enrollment increases.

[twcpfan1]

Here's a LINK (http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pi/hs/schoolsize.html) about this and for large size schools like Allen where the city has decided on one school and built the school to support this. Allen is really like 6 smaller High Schools with 6 houses of about 800 students each. As the article states this gives the academic benefits of smaller schools while maintaining one school and town spirit. Not saying its the best or if Allen can maintain this? Allen is about 90% built out so do not see it changing and do believe they are looking at a new house as enrollment increases.

That should be a UIL violation. It's recruiting from 5 other schools :D

[tjw]

That should be a UIL violation. It's recruiting from 5 other schools :D

How else does a 3A school win a 5A state championship? :D

[EaglePower]

Allen is really like 6 smaller High Schools with 6 houses of about 800 students each.
While it is true there are 6 houses with about 800 students each, i'm not so sure it's like six small high schools. They are basically just offices for admin purposes, disciplinary(house principal), attendance because the school is so large it can't have 1 office tend to all the kids. Basically your just split up between houses by last name, you all get same classes, nothing is different than 1 large high school.

I also believe Plano and PESH run this system too? or something similar

[twcpfan1]

Farmer, since you put this topic on the main board, I will steer the discussion towards football. Not sure there's a real advantage to school size at the 5a level. If you're 5a, you have enough kids to pick from even with the minimum to make the cutoff. It still boils down to what your coaching staff is able to do with the available talent. Then of course there's the community support which arguably Katy and Carroll have the best of. They're enrolment is small in relative terms

[DrEdward]

Here's a LINK (http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pi/hs/schoolsize.html) about this and for large size schools like Allen where the city has decided on one school and built the school to support this. Allen is really like 6 smaller High Schools with 6 houses of about 800 students each. As the article states this gives the academic benefits of smaller schools while maintaining one school and town spirit. Not saying its the best or if Allen can maintain this? Allen is about 90% built out so do not see it changing and do believe they are looking at a new house as enrollment increases.

This link confirms the findings I attempted to summarize above. The optimal size high school being around 900 students. The school within a school concept which Allen utilizes has been around for some years, but is still debated as to its effectiveness. As tjw's link points out, research is still underway evaluating this concept. I have found it to be a bit clunky, but Allen and others are at liberty to organize their school as they see fit.

One of the finding that is important I think, is the number of students in one location. Several schools around have split campuses, either 9-10/11-12 or a separate 9th grade center. (I think the latter has a lot to be said for it, but that depends upon the total size of the student body. By splitting the student body into separate locations, one can emulate the smaller sized high school arrangement and the student/teacher relationships which accompany the smaller size. The UIL can then be happy to still count the enrollment for classification purposes as 9-12, as they do today.

[alleneagle4]

i love having such a large hs
i still believe i am receiving a quality education
even though the halls are extremely crowded.... its fun to walk from one end of our main hallway to the other in passing periods.... and realize just how many people there are

plus it keeps things more competitive... where as if you wanted...
you could drive down the road two miles and go to Lovejoy HS and make any team or group you wanted.... but rarely win anything......other than their state volleyball title that was won with products of the allen system

[DrEdward]

That would be an interesting read. I would love a copy.

I will look for a copy of it tomorrow and the pdf as well. Will let you know when I find it.

[farmerfan]

i love having such a large hs
i still believe i am receiving a quality education
even though the halls are extremely crowded.... its fun to walk from one end of our main hallway to the other in passing periods.... and realize just how many people there are

plus it keeps things more competitive... where as if you wanted...
you could drive down the road two miles and go to Lovejoy HS and make any team or group you wanted.... but never win anything

That's a pretty cheap and inaccurate shot at Lovejoy. I believe in their short history as a HS they have already won a state championship in a sport and done quite well in others.

[farmerfan]

Farmer, since you put this topic on the main board, I will steer the discussion towards football. Not sure there's a real advantage to school size at the 5a level. If you're 5a, you have enough kids to pick from even with the minimum to make the cutoff. It still boils down to what your coaching staff is able to do with the available talent. Then of course there's the community support which arguably Katy and Carroll have the best of. They're enrolment is small in relative terms

This was not in any way an attempt to say because one has a bigger enrollment they are better than others. We have had that debate on here before. I was just curious in the overall makeup of different districts and what determines why they go the path they do. I have spent a lot of time up in McKinney, Frisco, Plano and Allen the past few weeks and it dawned on me today as I drove by Shepton HS and Plano West Senior High in Plano tha when do these things become too big. I figured it would get the most feedback on the mainboard as opposed to being hijacked on the yard.

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

I have mixed feelings about a cap on enrollment. But it sure is nice to see the community pride that only having one school brings. All the highschool students are afforded the same academic opportunities is a pro, but unless you are a stud you might not see playing time in some sports. I think it should be up to the tax payers decide. I dont want to seem to be riding the fence here but there are good things about both. One thing it could solve by capping would there would be no need for the UIL to have 2 divisions in 5a.

[62tiger]

I had around 525 in my class at Westchester in '82. What I liked about it was the sense that you knew most in your class. Or at least you felt like you did. As far as sports and other activities.......I would think a lot of kids would get left out in a school of 4 to 5k.

Just my thoughts

[DrEdward]

I had around 525 in my class at Westchester in '82. What I liked about it was the sense that you knew most in your class. Or at least you felt like you did. As far as sports and other activities.......I would think a lot of kids would get left out in a school of 4 to 5k.

Just my thoughts

Indeed. It also is one of the psychological rationales for smaller sized schools, not just in sports, but in other events as well. That is what Allen is trying to get around with their "school within a school." However, that concept certainly does not apply to their UIL activities.

[alleneagle4]

here's a downside.................

graduation is going to take FOREVER and be SO BORING!

eventually, we're gonna have to have it at JerryWorld cause we can't fit anywhere else, haha jk

[Red Raider Rick]

Westchester Class of '79 here...

Fort Bend is at the other end of the spectrum with 10 HS and still adding on. A couple schools are already at 4A levels and freshman football is down to one team at several schools. Hard to compete.

If you manage the growth by building HS so close the the 4A threshold, education may be better, but the real problem is maintaining all those campuses once the neighborhood grays. The Spring Branch district has never recovered athletically from the early 80's when the boom went bust. The district ended up closing 2 HS, (Westchester and Spring Branch) and still has a couple schools at 4A levels.

I would think design should allow for 3500 max, but still function effeciently at 2500-3000. Instead, we seem to keep building to satisfy special interest and developers at a heavy expense to the taxpayer, education and athletics.

Hightower represented us well this year, but if there were only 7-8 FBISD HS, from strictly a football perspective, we would be a force top to bottom. I suppose at the expense of education??? I don't know.

[dragonsdaddy]

From a quality education POV, 2500 - 3000 would be a good cap
from whose belly button did you glean this opinion?

[katyfan52]

From a quality education POV, 2500 - 3000 would be a good cap
That sounds about right. From what I've read, beyond that there can be a tendency for it to become warehousing.

[twcpfan1]

from whose belly button did you glean this opinion?

Mine. TWCP is roughly that size. But of course if you'd rather scan the www for someone else's research and be prepared to accept it as Gospel Truth because they say it is, that's fine too. Of course, a smaller, well funded school with less number of students per quality teacher would probably mean a better quality education. But, I'd much rather my kid was in a 5a school if that's ok with you. Much more fun for the kids from a sports/fine arts perspective.

[Eagle1986]

That's a pretty cheap and inaccurate shot at Lovejoy. I believe in their short history as a HS they have already won a state championship in a sport and done quite well in others.

Ditto on the cheap shot, Lovejoy Highschool has only been around for three years and I think they've done quite well. I do agree with some of his first statements, my daughters have so much more opportunity with the size of the
school and the amount of courses they can choose from. It's just crazy what they offer in Allen from when I went to school there.:eek:

[slcdragonfan]

This link confirms the findings I attempted to summarize above. The optimal size high school being around 900 students. The school within a school concept which Allen utilizes has been around for some years, but is still debated as to its effectiveness. As tjw's link points out, research is still underway evaluating this concept. I have found it to be a bit clunky, but Allen and others are at liberty to organize their school as they see fit.

One of the finding that is important I think, is the number of students in one location. Several schools around have split campuses, either 9-10/11-12 or a separate 9th grade center. (I think the latter has a lot to be said for it, but that depends upon the total size of the student body. By splitting the student body into separate locations, one can emulate the smaller sized high school arrangement and the student/teacher relationships which accompany the smaller size. The UIL can then be happy to still count the enrollment for classification purposes as 9-12, as they do today.

I initially was not happy with the split as my kids had to travel between schools to attend advanced courses while in 9-10 and back. However, as I have experienced it, I prefer it. First, it keeps senior boys away from frosh/soph girls! ;) With two daughters, I liked that. But in general, I believe there is less of the bullying/hazing that you would see with seniors and freshmen together. Summary? I am a believer in a separate 9th or 9th/10th location. I believe it is also good to somehow keep the 6th graders separate from the 7th/8th; that is a brutal time for kids (or can be).

[NHB06]

The voters in each city should decide on how the school system is to be organized to meet the needs of the community. There are pro's and con's to each system of organization whether big or small. The senior high's in the Plano ISD system are run similar to small community colleges. Therefore, the majority of students are "college ready" upon graduation. On the downside, the schools can be very large and impersonal to some students who fail to get involved in school activities and can't find their niche (ie athletics, band, academics, student organizations).

[farmerfan]

I had around 525 in my class at Westchester in '82. What I liked about it was the sense that you knew most in your class. Or at least you felt like you did. As far as sports and other activities.......I would think a lot of kids would get left out in a school of 4 to 5k.

Just my thoughts

I had 52 in my class and just a tad over 300 in my entire High School. The same classes at Marcus and Lewisville were roughly 700 and 900 when I was a senior (2000). I honestly feel like the LISD is probably getting too big with its high schools too they will have 3 over 3000 this next go around and Hebron will probably be around 2700. It seems that over the last 10 years with LHS getting bigger and bigger that their academic achievements have dropped off too. But Marcus and FM both have excelled in theirs. Go figure :confused: If I had half a brain, I would love to do some kind of study just on the districts in DFW alone. The collin county area could be a prime example with McKinney and Frisco opting to go the smaller route while Plano and Allen do the opposite.

[NHB06]

I had 52 in my class and just a tad over 300 in my entire High School. The same classes at Marcus and Lewisville were roughly 700 and 900 when I was a senior (2000). I honestly feel like the LISD is probably getting too big with its high schools too they will have 3 over 3000 this next go around and Hebron will probably be around 2700. It seems that over the last 10 years with LHS getting bigger and bigger that their academic achievements have dropped off too. But Marcus and FM both have excelled in theirs. Go figure :confused: If I had half a brain, I would love to do some kind of study just on the districts in DFW alone. The collin county area could be a prime example with McKinney and Frisco opting to go the smaller route while Plano and Allen do the opposite.

From another perspective, I had 1350 in my graduating class at Plano. When I went to UT Austin for my undergraduate degree, I was extremely well prepared to deal with huge freshman classes and an extremely large campus environment.

[62tiger]

Lets use Baseball and Basketball as examples......

4000+ students means some kids that might be able to make and play at a school of 2500 +/- could and will not get the chance to.

Same with Drama, debate, etc.......

[DrEdward]

I had 52 in my class and just a tad over 300 in my entire High School. The same classes at Marcus and Lewisville were roughly 700 and 900 when I was a senior (2000). I honestly feel like the LISD is probably getting too big with its high schools too they will have 3 over 3000 this next go around and Hebron will probably be around 2700. It seems that over the last 10 years with LHS getting bigger and bigger that their academic achievements have dropped off too. But Marcus and FM both have excelled in theirs. Go figure :confused: If I had half a brain, I would love to do some kind of study just on the districts in DFW alone. The collin county area could be a prime example with McKinney and Frisco opting to go the smaller route while Plano and Allen do the opposite.

LISD is something of a borderline case. LHS would likely be better off being a smaller school, if you believe the statistical results in the literature. At least they would be more likely to benefit from a size reduction relative to Flower Mound or Marcus. But then, Marcus seems to have already made the decision to go to a 9th grade center arrangement.

[JagFan]

LISD is something of a borderline case. LHS would likely be better off being a smaller school, if you believe the statistical results in the literature. At least they would be more likely to benefit from a size reduction relative to Flower Mound or Marcus. But then, Marcus seems to have already made the decision to go to a 9th grade center arrangement.

Within the next couple of years. Marcus, Hebron and FM will all have a 9th grade campus. Which IMO is a good thing. I can't remember where I read it but I believe LHS will have a 9/10 center and then a 11/12.

[farmerfan]

LISD is something of a borderline case. LHS would likely be better off being a smaller school, if you believe the statistical results in the literature. At least they would be more likely to benefit from a size reduction relative to Flower Mound or Marcus. But then, Marcus seems to have already made the decision to go to a 9th grade center arrangement.

Without reading the literature I would agree with that statement just on the history I know of LHS first hand. I think LHS was at its best during the late 80's into the late 90's when it was around the 2200-2700 enrollment range. I am speaking both academically, athletically and in its fine arts.

[PirateParent2011]

Wylie ISD looked at the various ways districts in the state expand their HS campuses and then had public "town hall" meetings to get input from citizens as to what they would like to see. The board then voted to go with the majority and have multiple 4 year high schools. While many, including myself, hate to see the "One Town-One School' concept go (for many reasons) ultimately it will be better for the kids (more opportunities, smaller class sizes, etc.)

[85Roughneck]

I had around 525 in my class at Westchester in '82. What I liked about it was the sense that you knew most in your class. Or at least you felt like you did. As far as sports and other activities.......I would think a lot of kids would get left out in a school of 4 to 5k.

Just my thoughts

Columbia class of '86 here ...

my class graduated 191. Not sure what the total enrollment was but I remember we barely made 4A by like maybe 15 students or so. I could be wrong but I think we only had 950 students in grades 9-12 ... something like that ... hey, it's been 23 years ... I'm sure one of you guys can look back in the records somewhere and see what the enrollment was for 4A in 1985-86 ... anyway, I can honestly say that I knew every single one of my fellow seniors by their whole name. In my day we went up to 6th grade in Brazoria and then went to West Colmubia for 7-12 so in 7th grade you got to meet a whole new town full of new students. There were a handful of kids I went to all 14 years of school with (14 years includes nursery school and kindergarten) and others that I only knew for the last 6 years. Our classes were small, never more than 25 or so I'm sure for basics like English or History. Some of my classes had as few as 15 students. I know Columbia does not have a stellar academic record even in Brazoria County, but I always thought school was what you made it on an individual basis. What you put in you got back out. If you went to class and applied yourself you got a pretty good foundation for college. I did OK I believe in high school ... graduated in the top 10% (18th/191). I thought then as I think now that a smaller school has advantages over large school because of the closer student to teacher ratio. There's a lot to be said for being able to know everyone in your class as well. It was more secure. You knew who the troublemakers were because there weren't that many. I also believe thagt is is easier to manage 25 kids at a time instead of 50 or more in one classroom. In short, I would rather my kids went to a smaller 5A campus.

[Magellan]

Many consider enrollment too large when it gets above about 2500. If a district is growing, once a school hits 3000, most consider that to be the time to build the next one because of sheer math- if the district is growing 5 a year, when the 5 year cycle of: plan, bond, build, staff, open (each taking about a year with overlap occurring), you're ready for another HS when it's ready to open its doors to students.

Research says you want small learning communities, but even the "tower" idea that is so popular now only works to create those tangibly small commununities when you have true "school within a school" where you only leave your "tower" for lunch.

But, unless you're a district so awash with money that even after "Robin Hood" you still have plenty left over, you make these decisions based on the financial side of things before you get C&I involved.

On the north side of Houston, most districts are about 1-1.5 HS behind. When you look at the Humble, Spring-Klein, and Cypress areas of town, each district has schools bursting at the seams just waiting for a new HS. In Spring, they are about 1 HS behind. In Klein, they have the bond approved for another school, but it's 5 years away due to the current economy. In Cy-Fair, they have 8 full HSs, 2 that are opening now, and 2 that are approved and in the works.

All districts are trying to keep their schools at/around 2800-3000 on campus because the economics of it just work out the best. They'd love to keep it to 800-1000 kids to be able to build great relationships between students and faculty, but a school with 1000 kids makes the logistics of providing all the necessary services and programs too difficult (let alone some of the AP electives like Physics II, Euro History, Microeconomics, etc.).

[The King]

I think about 1000 is a good nimber for a high school, large enough to be competitive and small enough to know your whole class. Also small enough to have a higher % of student involvement.

The most important thing to learn in high school is to get involved in whats goin on and to stay involved.

[dragonsdaddy]

Mine. TWCP is roughly that size. But of course if you'd rather scan the www for someone else's research and be prepared to accept it as Gospel Truth because they say it is, that's fine too. Of course, a smaller, well funded school with less number of students per quality teacher would probably mean a better quality education. But, I'd much rather my kid was in a 5a school if that's ok with you. Much more fun for the kids from a sports/fine arts perspective.

i try to decrease the factuality of my pronouncements with an imo. i'm just sayin.

[twcpfan1]

i try to decrease the factuality of my pronouncements with an imo. i'm just sayin.

Well in this particular case, I'd have thought every post would either be your own or somebody else's opinion. Still opinions nonetheless. Even research material where they might throw numbers at you. Who's to say that it's relevant data to everybody? If I recall, the numbers I 'pronounced' would be a good cap. Never said it 'is' a good cap.

[BandidoNB]

I think enrollments being too large is a bit subjective also. A lot of what makes a school successful or struggling is based on socio-economics and community involvement. And its also up to the communities to decide what they want for their schools.

Boerne ISD is a good example of a school district that is anti-5A and prefers 4A and 3A sized schools. While New Braunfels ISD has NBHS just reaching 5A numbers again, but has no desire to split its HS.

Then there is indecisive school districts like Schertz-Cibolo-Universal City ISD who want to have 4A sized schools, but have Steele busting at the seams waiting in the wings to go 5A while Clemens is hundreds of students undercapacity :D

[TheScout]

Well if anyone on here thinks that the 5A school has an advantage over a 1A school then consider this. This enrollment of Plano or PESH or allen in comparison to SLC, Trinity or Katy it is like putting a 5a school against a 1A school. Somewhere in the range of 2500 kids difference.

There is def. an advantage being able to choose from more kids in Plano,PESH, allen; But so far SLC, Katy and Trinity as a whole have racked up more titles

[bigdaddydog]

Well if anyone on here thinks that the 5A school has an advantage over a 1A school then consider this. This enrollment of Plano or PESH or allen in comparison to SLC, Trinity or Katy it is like putting a 5a school against a 1A school. Somewhere in the range of 2500 kids difference.

There is def. an advantage being able to choose from more kids in Plano,PESH, allen; But so far SLC, Katy and Trinity as a whole have racked up more titles

I agree with you that there can be a real and statistical advantage with larger schools. The advantage I would argue is not linear as a function of total size. I would assert that if the percentage size difference between to schools is held constant and the overrall size of the two schools increased from 1A on up to the upper limits of 5A, the advantage would be diluted or reduced.

There are so many variables that come into play when looking at the success of programs.


~

[PirateParent2011]

I agree with you that there can be a real and statistical advantage with larger schools. The advantage I would argue is not linear as a function of total size. I would assert that if the percentage size difference between to schools is held constant and the overrall size of the two schools increased from 1A on up to the upper limits of 5A, the advantage would be diluted or reduced.

There are so many variables that come into play when looking at the success of programs.


~

Agreed...look at the success Wylie had this past season and we are one of the smallest schools in 8-5A.

[grayowl60]

Agreed...look at the success Wylie had this past season and we are one of the smallest schools in 8-5A.
I noticed the judgement by some posters from your nieghbors to the West that Wylie NEEDS to build some more schools and stay small. They have made that determination.;):cool:

[PirateParent2011]

I noticed the judgement by some posters from your nieghbors to the West that Wylie NEEDS to build some more schools and stay small. They have made that determination.;):cool:

Yep! :D

Would it not be something if Wylie was to win district in 2009 (possibly our last year in 5A for quite some time)?

[bigdaddydog]

I noticed the judgement by some posters from your nieghbors to the West that Wylie NEEDS to build some more schools and stay small. They have made that determination.;):cool:

Yeah, well Wylie doesn't need to build more schools. But that is what the community wants and that is what they will get. By the next re-alignment the new school will be open and fully stocked with kids. Then both Wylie schools can worry about whoopin up on them dress wearing, fruity smellin, debutante marrying Park City boys...! ;):D


~

[PirateParent2011]

Yeah, well Wylie doesn't need to build more schools. But that is what the community wants and that is what they will get. By the next re-alignment the new school will be open and fully stocked with kids. Then both Wylie schools can worry about whoopin up on them dress wearing, fruity smellin, debutante marrying Park City boys...! ;):D


~

Yes sir! I love 5A ball but since it is inevitable that we will fall back down to 4A I relish the thought of taking on HP once again...we owe them some beat downs!

[grayowl60]

Yeah, well Wylie doesn't need to build more schools. But that is what the community wants and that is what they will get. By the next re-alignment the new school will be open and fully stocked with kids. Then both Wylie schools can worry about whoopin up on them dress wearing, fruity smellin, debutante marrying Park City boys...! ;):D


~
So.. you think they should NOT build, just keep one school and grow to 4000. 5000, maybe 6000 students? Thats a lot of kids to choose 50 to 60 football players from. AND they all play dirty:eek:

[dragonsdaddy]

sounds to me like he is saying it should be left up to the individual school districts. my graduating class at plano was 254, by far the largest ever, so what do i know? i'm betting that there are plenty of individual students from the largest schools in the state who will do fine competing against individuals from the smallest schools(and vice versa). these are called studies of one. So.. you think they should NOT build, just keep one school and grow to 4000. 5000, maybe 6000 students? Thats a lot of kids to choose 50 to 60 football players from. AND they all play dirty:eek:

[Wypirates03]

Yes sir! I love 5A ball but since it is inevitable that we will fall back down to 4A I relish the thought of taking on HP once again...we owe them some beat downs!

Yeah... about 12 or so. :D

[bigdaddydog]

Yeah... about 12 or so. :D

Ah Grasshopper, a journey toward 12 beatdowns begins with the first one.

I will be eagerly watching. :D


~

[Magellan]

Within the next couple of years. Marcus, Hebron and FM will all have a 9th grade campus. Which IMO is a good thing. I can't remember where I read it but I believe LHS will have a 9/10 center and then a 11/12.

The 9th Grade Campus idea is fine, in theory, but it makes 9th Grade students feel like they aren't really a part of the school- even if they participate in extra-curriculars... and the kids who are in extra-curriculars are the ones who are the most a part of the school community regardless of where they came from. It just delays the real transition to HS, and in my opinion, delays the maturing process.

[smw358]

After about 2500....it is all about coaching. I would take a great coach with 2500 enrollment than an idiot with 5000....;)

[farmerfan]

After about 2500....it is all about coaching. I would take a great coach with 2500 enrollment than an idiot with 5000....;)

Football was a very small part of why I presented this question or thought. I think the proof has been provided that once you reach a certain enrollment that it is all about coaching, see the Katys, Carrolls, Lufkins and Longviews.
I was just curious in regards to the overall HS experience.

[smw358]

Football was a very small part of why I presented this question or thought. I think the proof has been provided that once you reach a certain enrollment that it is all about coaching, see the Katys, Carrolls, Lufkins and Longviews.
I was just curious in regards to the overall HS experience.

Oh! Well then, my experience at Katy with a graduating class of 140 was great! Knew everyone. I think back then in 74 we had approx 450 students. Boy how things have changed! My kids went to Klein Oak. They still really only new about 150 to 200 people really close. I think no matter what size the school, kids surround themselves with about that number.

[GoOwls]

I promise to not make this a Garland vs. Plano/Allen/etc. thread.

My problem with the Mega-schools is the kids....

Forget the whole GISD and it's 7 high schools, just focus on Garland High.

My numbers may be wrong, but I believe that we had 250 kids in the varsity, junior varsity, and freshman programs last year.....give or take 40 or so.

When I see Garland take the field against Mega-schools, the varsity team size is about the same, but the school enrolement is 2 to 3 times less than the Mega-school.

What this tells me is that there are kids getting left out of varsity athletics at the Mega-schools. Kids get to the varsity level and say, "well, I'm not good enough to make the varisty here, so I'll just quit and do something else".

Plano has a larger population than Garland, but the schools are Plano 3 and Garland 7.

I wonder how many kids are playing at the varsity level in the Garland ISD as opposed to Plano....I bet there are many, many more in Garland than Plano....and it is a crying shame that kids have to give up football just because the ISD wants the quality of the team to be better as opposed to student participation being maxed out.

I don't care about the competiton thing.....we'd play Plano if they had 20,000 kids in the school, I just feel sorry for the kids that get left out.

[bigdaddydog]

I promise to not make this a Garland vs. Plano/Allen/etc. thread.

My problem with the Mega-schools is the kids....

Forget the whole GISD and it's 7 high schools, just focus on Garland High.

My numbers may be wrong, but I believe that we had 250 kids in the varsity, junior varsity, and freshman programs last year.....give or take 40 or so.

When I see Garland take the field against Mega-schools, the varsity team size is about the same, but the school enrolement is 2 to 3 times less than the Mega-school.

What this tells me is that there are kids getting left out of varsity athletics at the Mega-schools. Kids get to the varsity level and say, "well, I'm not good enough to make the varisty here, so I'll just quit and do something else".

Plano has a larger population than Garland, but the schools are Plano 3 and Garland 7.

I wonder how many kids are playing at the varsity level in the Garland ISD as opposed to Plano....I bet there are many, many more in Garland than Plano....and it is a crying shame that kids have to give up football just because the ISD wants the quality of the team to be better as opposed to student participation being maxed out.

I don't care about the competiton thing.....we'd play Plano if they had 20,000 kids in the school, I just feel sorry for the kids that get left out.


I appreciate your points on the mega school vs a smaller school. For my first kid the mega school was Great. for my youngest I don't think it would have been such a great experience.

Compare extracurricular, Football to Band. While Football is much like you describe, Allen has about a 11-12% student body participation in band (Instruments, Color guard, drill teams) Performers on the field. I don't see many if any other schools regardless of size matching that percentage of participation.

If your points about football are to ring true then I would expect that the varsity roster at Allen is going to be filled with kids that could start for just about any smaller 5A school. Right? That is not the case in Allen. The talent pool is not so deep with 4800+ students that we fill out a 70 player varsity roster with "starters".

The thing I appreciate about our one campus town is that there is a deeper and more diverse opportunity for kids that can't make the varsity squad than there is at most smaller schools. Allen has the community college on campus with college level courses available to the high school kids. A class that would not make at a smaller school has a much better chance of making at a larger school like Allen HS.

The other part of having a single school is that it is less expensive for the district than having two schools. There are many functions that do not have to be duplicated.

Looking at Allen vs Plano(s) Allen is 9th grade Freshman center separate from the 10th - 12th grade high school. Where as Plano has High Schools 9th -10th and then Senior High schools 11th - 12th. So even though two of the three Plano schools have larger enrollment than Allen, we will always have ~1000 more kids on our Sr. campus than Plano does.

Conclusion for me is that it is just different. Overall not better or worse, just different.



~

[grayowl60]

I promise to not make this a Garland vs. Plano/Allen/etc. thread.

My problem with the Mega-schools is the kids....

Forget the whole GISD and it's 7 high schools, just focus on Garland High.

My numbers may be wrong, but I believe that we had 250 kids in the varsity, junior varsity, and freshman programs last year.....give or take 40 or so.

When I see Garland take the field against Mega-schools, the varsity team size is about the same, but the school enrolement is 2 to 3 times less than the Mega-school.

What this tells me is that there are kids getting left out of varsity athletics at the Mega-schools. Kids get to the varsity level and say, "well, I'm not good enough to make the varisty here, so I'll just quit and do something else".

Plano has a larger population than Garland, but the schools are Plano 3 and Garland 7.

I wonder how many kids are playing at the varsity level in the Garland ISD as opposed to Plano....I bet there are many, many more in Garland than Plano....and it is a crying shame that kids have to give up football just because the ISD wants the quality of the team to be better as opposed to student participation being maxed out.

I don't care about the competiton thing.....we'd play Plano if they had 20,000 kids in the school, I just feel sorry for the kids that get left out.
And the same goes for every activity. Debate, one act play, band etc. There is a REASON that districts keep the schools small! But "they" will throw up academics:notworthy. Of course academics has more to do with social/ economic conditions than school size.

[dragonpants]

While it is true there are 6 houses with about 800 students each, i'm not so sure it's like six small high schools. They are basically just offices for admin purposes, disciplinary(house principal), attendance because the school is so large it can't have 1 office tend to all the kids. Basically your just split up between houses by last name, you all get same classes, nothing is different than 1 large high school.

I also believe Plano and PESH run this system too? or something similar

I like our model, intermediate schools, middle schools and dividing the high school into a high school and senior high school 9th and 10th in one building and 11th and 12th in the other.

Of course our total enrollment is half or less than Allen but it makes it manageable and you get the benefits from a large enrollment and from smaller school sizes.

[DrEdward]

I appreciate your points on the mega school vs a smaller school. For my first kid the mega school was Great. for my youngest I don't think it would have been such a great experience.

Compare extracurricular, Football to Band. While Football is much like you describe, Allen has about a 11-12% student body participation in band (Instruments, Color guard, drill teams) Performers on the field. I don't see many if any other schools regardless of size matching that percentage of participation......

~

Allen has a good number of the demographics required to make a larger school work.

But there are indeed other schools that both match and exceed the participation rate in band that Allen enjoys. Carroll has a band of about 450 kids, I think if one includes the flag corp. If the drill team is added in, then the band/drill team combination exceeds 500 easily. Smaller than Allen's in absolute size (as are a number of entire schools around the state), but larger in percentage terms. With Carroll having a student enrollment in 9 - 12 of about 2,500, that would put the participation rate of band/drill team at approximately 20% of the students compared to Allen's 12%.

But again, it is the sociodemogrphic characteristics of the school which largely accounts for such particpation rates.

[bigdaddydog]

Allen has a good number of the demographics required to make a larger school work.

But there are indeed other schools that both match and exceed the participation rate in band that Allen enjoys. Carroll has a band of about 450 kids, I think if one includes the flag corp. If the drill team is added in, then the band/drill team combination exceeds 500 easily. Smaller than Allen's in absolute size (as are a number of entire schools around the state), but larger in percentage terms. With Carroll having a student enrollment in 9 - 12 of about 2,500, that would put the participation rate of band/drill team at approximately 20% of the students compared to Allen's 12%.

But again, it is the sociodemogrphic characteristics of the school which largely accounts for such particpation rates.

I don't recall saying there weren't schools that matched or exceeded what Allen has going on with the band.

But let's look at participation. I don't recall ever seeing Carroll March 450 kids in any of the competitions or during the playoffs. Just like I don't remember ever seeing Berkner (a very large band) march 350 during competitions.

I agree with you on the sociodemographic effects on participation. I also think it is the attitude of the administration along with the abilities of the folks leading a given program. Plano West as an example should have all the Sociodemographic juice to have great numbers but they don't. That can only mean one thing...

So when is enrollment too large?


~

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

I like our model, intermediate schools, middle schools and dividing the high school into a high school and senior high school 9th and 10th in one building and 11th and 12th in the other.

Of course our total enrollment is half or less than Allen but it makes it manageable and you get the benefits from a large enrollment and from smaller school sizes.


The Plano way!!

[slcdragonfan]

One area where a larger enrollment/school district can make a difference is in marginal programs such as orchestra. Not much need for the marching orchestra, so it has to stand on its own. Do Allen/Plano have an orchestra? per school or per district? Other marginal programs might also have enough students/funds to exist as well.

In the Pasadena school district, we did not have enough kids to make an orchestra per school, but we did have a district orchestra.

I recognize this is not exactly an enrollment/school question, but I am curious as to any programs that the larger schools might have that smaller ones might not.

[Eagle1986]

One area where a larger enrollment/school district can make a difference is in marginal programs such as orchestra. Not much need for the marching orchestra, so it has to stand on its own. Do Allen/Plano have an orchestra? per school or per district? Other marginal programs might also have enough students/funds to exist as well.

In the Pasadena school district, we did not have enough kids to make an orchestra per school, but we did have a district orchestra.

I recognize this is not exactly an enrollment/school question, but I am curious as to any programs that the larger schools might have that smaller ones might not.

My daughter was in orchestra 7th, 8th and 9th grade years.

http://www.allenorchestra.org/

[alleneagle4]

first of all...... the enrollment number posted for Plano ISD and Allen HS..... are ALL of the schools
as in...... when they say Allen HS has 4XXX number of students..... that is NOT just AHS..... thats AHS AND LFC.....

same with plano

when they say Plano East has 5XXX..... thats PESH & CLARK
(same with Plano and Plano West)


My freshman year (2005-2006), Allen HS had SEVEN full sized football teams

freshmen had a little over 200+ kids in football
they divided everyone into two even teams........ called WHITE and BLUE team......
then they divided each of those into a Better and Worse team, called A and B
so there was a WHITE A (my team), WHITE B, BLUE A, AND BLUE B

then there were 2 JV teams (still are) JVI (better) and JV2 (worse) (those were made up of only sophomores and juniors)

and varsity of course

now i believe there are only 3 freshmen teams A, B, and C

[PirateFan]

That would be an interesting read. I would love a copy.
anymore copys left :)

[PirateFan]

Wylie ISD looked at the various ways districts in the state expand their HS campuses and then had public "town hall" meetings to get input from citizens as to what they would like to see. The board then voted to go with the majority and have multiple 4 year high schools. While many, including myself, hate to see the "One Town-One School' concept go (for many reasons) ultimately it will be better for the kids (more opportunities, smaller class sizes, etc.)


what he said!!

[PirateFan]

first of all...... the enrollment number posted for Plano ISD and Allen HS..... are ALL of the schools
as in...... when they say Allen HS has 4XXX number of students..... that is NOT just AHS..... thats AHS AND LFC.....

same with plano

when they say Plano East has 5XXX..... thats PESH & CLARK
(same with Plano and Plano West)


My freshman year (2005-2006), Allen HS had SEVEN full sized football teams

freshmen had a little over 200+ kids in football
they divided everyone into two even teams........ called WHITE and BLUE team......
then they divided each of those into a Better and Worse team, called A and B
so there was a WHITE A (my team), WHITE B, BLUE A, AND BLUE B

then there were 2 JV teams (still are) JVI (better) and JV2 (worse) (those were made up of only sophomores and juniors)

and varsity of course

now i believe there are only 3 freshmen teams A, B, and C

i think 2500 cap would serve both academics and sports
the division of the kids would serve them too

[TexasRR]

first of all...... the enrollment number posted for Plano ISD and Allen HS..... are ALL of the schools
as in...... when they say Allen HS has 4XXX number of students..... that is NOT just AHS..... thats AHS AND LFC.....

same with plano

when they say Plano East has 5XXX..... thats PESH & CLARK
(same with Plano and Plano West)


My freshman year (2005-2006), Allen HS had SEVEN full sized football teams

freshmen had a little over 200+ kids in football
they divided everyone into two even teams........ called WHITE and BLUE team......
then they divided each of those into a Better and Worse team, called A and B
so there was a WHITE A (my team), WHITE B, BLUE A, AND BLUE B

then there were 2 JV teams (still are) JVI (better) and JV2 (worse) (those were made up of only sophomores and juniors)

and varsity of course

now i believe there are only 3 freshmen teams A, B, and C

Thanks for that #4. That's a very large number of kids being given an opportunity to be involved in athletics - and that's talking only football.

Because of that, and the excellent academic opportunities afforded at Allen High School (which I belive are second to none), along with high performance overall and college readiness, I feel like AHS has it going on!

It may not work for all communities, but it's working here in Allen, IMO.

[DrEdward]

anymore copys left :)

The pdf files were not where I thought they were. However, I can have a copy made of the paper and mail it to you should you be interested. If there is sufficient demand, I can have a new pdf file made and e-mail that out as well.

[DrEdward]

first of all...... the enrollment number posted for Plano ISD and Allen HS..... are ALL of the schools
as in...... when they say Allen HS has 4XXX number of students..... that is NOT just AHS..... thats AHS AND LFC.....

same with plano

when they say Plano East has 5XXX..... thats PESH & CLARK
(same with Plano and Plano West)


My freshman year (2005-2006), Allen HS had SEVEN full sized football teams

freshmen had a little over 200+ kids in football
they divided everyone into two even teams........ called WHITE and BLUE team......
then they divided each of those into a Better and Worse team, called A and B
so there was a WHITE A (my team), WHITE B, BLUE A, AND BLUE B

then there were 2 JV teams (still are) JVI (better) and JV2 (worse) (those were made up of only sophomores and juniors)

and varsity of course

now i believe there are only 3 freshmen teams A, B, and C

The UIL enrollment numbers are for grades 9 - 12 at each school. If all students are not located on the same campus, as is the case for many schools, then the count is based on the feeder schools as well.

[DrEdward]

In case anyone still might be interested, I did manage to find a copy of the paper I referenced earlier. If you would care to do your own background reading, the following is a moderately complete list of the literature on the subject of academic performance and school size up to circa 2000.

Kathleen Cotton, "School Size, School Climate, and Student Performance," School Improvement Research Series, No. 20, Northwest Regional Educational Laboratory, September, 1997.

Daviant T. Williams, "The Dimensions of Education: Recent Research on School Size," Working Paper Series, Clemson University, Strom Thurmond Institute of Government and Public Affairs, December, 1990.

T. Sergiovanni, "Organizations or Communities? Changing the Metaphor Changes the Theory," Educational Administrative Quarterly 30(2), pp214-226, 1994.

D. Meier, The Power of Their Ideas: Lessons for America from a Small School in Harlem. Boston: Beacon Press, 1995.

C. Howley, "Dumbing Down by Sizing Up," School Administrator 54(9) pp 24-30, 1997.

R. Riley, "Schools as Centers of Community," speech delivered to the annual meeting of the American Institute of Architects, Washington, D.C., October, 1999.

National Association of Secondary School Principals and the Carneigie Foundation, Breaking Ranks: Changing an American Institution, Reston, Va. 1996.

V. Lee and J. Smith, "High School Size: Which Works Best and For Whom?," Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, Vol. 19, No.3, pp 205-227, 1996.

Craig Howley, Marty Strange, and Robert Bickel, "Research About School Size and School Performance in Impoverished Communities," ERIC Clearinghouse on Rural Education and Small Schools, EDO-RC-00-10, December, 2000.

S.A. Melnick, M.R. Shibles, R.K. Gable, and V.A. Grzymkowski, "A Comparative Study of the Relationships Between School District Size and Selected Indicators of Educational Quality," Connecticut Association of School Administrators, Small Rural Schools Committee, ERIC Digest 305 215, February, 1986.

S.J. Caldas, "Reexamination of Input and Process Factor Effects of Public School Achievement," Journal of Educational Research, Vol. 86, No. 4, pp 206-214, March/April, 1987.

Michael Klonsky, "Small Schools: The Numbers Tell a Story. A Review of the Research and Current Experiences," ERIC Digest, 386 517, University of Illinois, College of Education, 1995.

Mary Anne Raywid, "The Subschools/Small Schools Movement - Taking Stock, Center on Organization and Restructuring of Schools," December, 1995.

G. Cawelti, "Restructuring Large High Schools to Personalize Learning for All," ERS Spectrum, Vol. 11, No. 3 (Summer, 1993) pp 17-21.

S.A. Boloz and C. Blessing, "Walking on Sacred Ground: A Navajo School-Within-a-School Model," ERIC Digest 253-313, 1994.

A.M. Burke, "Making a Big School Smaller: The School Within-a-School Arrangement for Middle Level Schools," ERIC Digest 303 890, 1987.

R. Eichenstein, Project Achieve, Part I: Qualitative Findings 1993-94. Office of Educational Research, New York City Board of Education, August, 1994.

J.T. Fouts, "A School Within A School: Evaluation Results of the First Year of a Restructuring Effort, Kent-Meridan High School," ERIC Digest 370 195, January 1994.

M.F. Goldberg, "What’s Happening in...Shoreham-Wading River High School?" Phi Delta Kappan, Vol. 64 no. 2, October, 1982.

R. Gordon,"The School Within a School Program: Preventing Failure and Dropout Among At-Risk Students," ERS Spectrum, Vol 11, No. 1, Winter, 1993, pp 27-30.

D.U. Levine and J.K. Sherk, "Effective Implementation of a Comprehension Improvement Approach in Secondary Schools," Center for the Study of Metropolitan Problems in Education, University of Missouri, ERIC Digest 327 830 May, 1990.

M.N. Nickle, F.C. Flynt, S.D. Poynter, and J.A. Rees, Jr.., "Does It Make a Difference if You Change the Structure? School-Within-A-School," Phi Delta Kappan, Vol. 72, No. 2, October, 1990, pp148-152.

G. Robinson-Lewis, "Summative Evaluation of the School-Within-A-School (SWAS) Program: 1988-1989, 1989-1990, 1990-1991." ERIC Digest 346 203, Kansas City School District, August, 1991.

J. Welsh and E. McKenna, "SWAS: School Within-A-School. A Middle Level Dropout Intervention Program," ERIC Digest 302-919, North Kingstown Public Schools, November, 1988.

[svrangerfan]

When Carroll and Allen do build a second high school they will probably send the girls to one school and the boys to the other. Surprised Judson did not do it.

[DrEdward]

When Carroll and Allen do build a second high school they will probably send the girls to one school and the boys to the other. Surprised Judson did not do it.

Don't think Carroll will ever attain a size that will necessitate a second four year school. Our high school campus consists of about 1300 and our 11-12 campus about 1200. Pretty nicely sized and decidedly co-ed. While Carroll will get some additional growth, it will not be anything near what the past has been in moving from 3A to 5a so rapidly. About the only thing which could significantly alter this is if the City of Southlake allows large apartment complex developments to occur. That does not seem likely.

But it would be interesting if Carroll or any other school went to schools segregated by gender. Would the UIL require each such school to double its enrollment count like is done for the Jesuits? My guess is yes.

[alleneagle4]

When Carroll and Allen do build a second high school they will probably send the girls to one school and the boys to the other. Surprised Judson did not do it.

except that would be completely rediculous.........................?

and Allen ISD Superintendent earlier this year said that he will NEVER build another HS in allen, no matter how big it gets

[farmerfan]

except that would be completely rediculous.........................?

and Allen ISD Superintendent earlier this year said that he will NEVER build another HS in allen, no matter how big it gets

It's the Plano way baby.:D

[TexasRR]

except that would be completely rediculous.........................?

and Allen ISD Superintendent earlier this year said that he will NEVER build another HS in allen, no matter how big it gets

That's really only half accurate. Administration has said there are no plans on building another high school...that's true. But they have a pretty good idea of how big AISD will get because Allen is nearing build-out as far as residential development goes. They feel confident that Allen High School will be able to serve the needs of Allen.

[bigdaddydog]

It's the Plano way baby.:D

Is it me or does Farmer seem to have an inordinately unhealthy fixation with South Allen?? :confused: :D

In fact Allen is planning to open a facility that will cater to the students more interested in non collegiate career and Technology pursuits as opposed to any new "High Schools".

Cheers,


~

[Maroondog]

Is it me or does Farmer seem to have an inordinately unhealthy fixation with South Allen?? :confused: :D

In fact Allen is planning to open a facility that will cater to the students more interested in non collegiate career and Technology pursuits as opposed to any new "High Schools".

Cheers,


~

I've been telling you all along that Farmboy is a true fan of Plano. :D

[dragonsdaddy]

I've been telling you all along that Farmboy is a true fan of Plano sales. :D

fify

[farmerfan]

Is it me or does Farmer seem to have an inordinately unhealthy fixation with South Allen?? :confused: :D

In fact Allen is planning to open a facility that will cater to the students more interested in non collegiate career and Technology pursuits as opposed to any new "High Schools".

Cheers,


~

I love Plano and Allen now. Where have you been the past few weeks. I have seen the light. If I get a deal I am currently working in Allen next week I plan on buying an Allen t-shirt. Go Collin County :notworthy

[farmerfan]

I've been telling you all along that Farmboy is a true fan of Plano. :D

Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo

I'm torn on who to cheer for next year.
I'll take any bribes or inticements you are willing to offer for me to lend my support to the better shade of Maroon ;)

[bigdaddydog]

I love Plano and Allen now. Where have you been the past few weeks. I have seen the light. If I get a deal I am currently working in Allen next week I plan on buying an Allen t-shirt. Go Collin County :notworthy

OMG! It's worse than I thought... The whole cup of Kool Aide was gone!!

OK, so good luck with this deal. I can't picture a Fighting Farmer wearing a different shade of Maroon, so I'll make you a deal you can't refuse on a PCC t-Shirt.

It beats the heck out of the "I Moved to Plano for the Mystique and All I Got Was This Crumby T-Shirt" T-Shirt!! :D


~

[farmerfan]

OMG! It's worse than I thought... The whole cup of Kool Aide was gone!!

OK, so good luck with this deal. I can't picture a Fighting Farmer wearing a different shade of Maroon, so I'll make you a deal you can't refuse on a PCC t-Shirt.

It beats the heck out of the "I Moved to Plano for the Mystique and All I Got Was This Crumby T-Shirt" T-Shirt!! :D


~

Thanks for the luck. It would be a nice size deal and a good check on my part if I can get it.
Had you been in the proposal presentation earlier this week you would have either thrown up or laughed your :Censor: off. I had to play the game with the people and they were all supporters of Allen HS. You would have thought I was the biggest Allen fan alive the way we were talking. Factor in how I brought up the 3 straight wins over Plano and they loved it. My boss was laughing the whole time when we went to lunch afterwards ;)
If I get this deal I will wear a PCC shirt and post it for all to see on the board :D

[bigdaddydog]

Thanks for the luck. It would be a nice size deal and a good check on my part if I can get it.
Had you been in the proposal presentation earlier this week you would have either thrown up or laughed your :Censor: off. I had to play the game with the people and they were all supporters of Allen HS. You would have thought I was the biggest Allen fan alive the way we were talking. Factor in how I brought up the 3 straight wins over Plano and they loved it. My boss was laughing the whole time when we went to lunch afterwards ;)
If I get this deal I will wear a PCC shirt and post it for all to see on the board :D

Wow, that is classic sales 101!!:notworthy You really are a Master Bass Kisser!!

Send me a PM and let me know more about what you are sellin.

Cheers,

P.S. I'm all out of the "small" sized PCC shirts ;)


~

[farmerfan]

Wow, that is classic sales 101!!:notworthy You really are a Master Bass Kisser!!

Send me a PM and let me know more about what you are sellin.

Cheers,

P.S. I'm all out of the "small" sized PCC shirts ;)


~

Now, how I do I know I can trust you? ;)
I tell you what I sell then you go warn all the business's in Allen to stay away from me and what not by directing them to this website to show them my old ignorant ways ;)

[bigdaddydog]

Now, how I do I know I can trust you? ;)
I tell you what I sell then you go warn all the business's in Allen to stay away from me and what not by directing them to this website to show them my old ignorant ways ;)

Oh, now I am hurt!! :( You must have me confused with "tjw".

That is why I said PM me. If you don't think that true Allen fans read the boards here and would find out anyway, well then you are only kidding yourself. Besides, I know there is a part of you way deep down inside that takes pleasure in Allen beating Plano three years running... :D

Not that you have read all 1800+ of my posts here, but I will stand behind the character revealed by them. So unless you are selling mobile home tires/wheels, I am not sure why Allen / Plano are such fertile ground for you.

Simple curiosity on my part.

We here in Allen save our diabolicality for the football season. :cool:

Cheers,


~

[PirateParent2011]

Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo

I'm torn on who to cheer for next year.
I'll take any bribes or inticements you are willing to offer for me to lend my support to the better shade of Maroon ;)

Hey Farmer,

Could you be enticed to support the Wylie version of Maroon? Looks better with the black unis don't you think? :D

http://www.5atexasfootball.com/forum/vB/picture.php?albumid=78&pictureid=504

[farmerfan]

Hey Farmer,

Could you be enticed to support the Wylie version of Maroon? Looks better with the black unis don't you think? :D

http://www.5atexasfootball.com/forum/vB/picture.php?albumid=78&pictureid=504

Wylie plays dirty.
I do not lend my support to dirty teams:rolleyes:;)

[PirateParent2011]

Wylie plays dirty.
I do not lend my support to dirty teams:rolleyes:;)


Touché! :D

[Maroondog]

Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo
Plaaanoo

I'm torn on who to cheer for next year.
I'll take any bribes or inticements you are willing to offer for me to lend my support to the better shade of Maroon ;)

Does my families' vodka distillery pique any interest? :D

[Maroondog]

Wow, that is classic sales 101!!:notworthy You really are a Master Bass Kisser!!

Send me a PM and let me know more about what you are sellin.

Cheers,

P.S. I'm all out of the "small" sized PCC shirts ;)


~

PCC is now lame. The Eagles have landed on a bigger perch. Everyone knows you now. I think the red, white and blue is a very suitable color scheme for that bullseye you now wear. :D

[bigdaddydog]

PCC is now lame. The Eagles have landed on a bigger perch. Everyone knows you now. I think the red, white and blue is a very suitable color scheme for that bullseye you now wear. :D

No, All three teams losing to the Eagles three years in a row is lame. There is only one way to break the curse. One of you must defeat us next season.

Bullseye, great idea for another T-Shirt. Thanks, :D


~

[Maroondog]

No, All three teams losing to the Eagles three years in a row is lame. There is only one way to break the curse. One of you must defeat us next season.

Bullseye, great idea for another T-Shirt. Thanks, :D


~

Yeah, you're right. Not sure if we'll have the guns to pull it off this year. Maybe the beast from the East or the beautiful people can pull it off.

When you do the shirts, make sure that target is REAL big. :)

[farmerfan]

I'm still torn on who to root for this next year?
Allen or South Allen?
Plano or North Plano?

Please help. I have plenty of maroon so that's one advantage for Plano.

But I also have plenty of Navy and Red in my closet so there's an advantage for Allen.

This is tough. :confused:

[TexasRR]

I'm still torn on who to root for this next year?
Allen or South Allen?
Plano or North Plano?

Please help. I have plenty of maroon so that's one advantage for Plano.

But I also have plenty of Navy and Red in my closet so there's an advantage for Allen.

This is tough. :confused:

You love your country, right? So do the patriotic thing and root for the red, white and blue wearing Allen Eagles. :D

[Dynastybegan86]

I'm still torn on who to root for this next year?
Allen or South Allen?
Plano or North Plano?

Please help. I have plenty of maroon so that's one advantage for Plano.

But I also have plenty of Navy and Red in my closet so there's an advantage for Allen.

This is tough. :confused:

It's really simple my good fan, KATY!!!!

:D:cool:

[grayowl60]

I'm still torn on who to root for this next year?
Allen or South Allen?
Plano or North Plano?

Please help. I have plenty of maroon so that's one advantage for Plano.

But I also have plenty of Navy and Red in my closet so there's an advantage for Allen.

This is tough. :confused:

In that district there is one school that has been accused of playing dirty, of being trailer trash and "wt", thier "need" for more schools has been discussed, and they surprised the state experts last year. For me there is one team in 8-5A to root for. WIDE AWAKE WYLIE!!!!:notworthy

[Dynastybegan86]

In that district there is one school that has been accused of playing dirty, of being trailer trash and "wt", thier "need" for more schools has been discussed, and they surprised the state experts last year. For me there is one team in 8-5A to root for. WIDE AWAKE WYLIE!!!!:notworthy

No, there is only one team to root for in Texas and that team is Katy!:notworthy

[farmerfan]

It's really simple my good fan, KATY!!!!

:D:cool:

Tell the fine people in Katy to buy something from me and I just may do that.
Until then my loaylties are now tied to the greatness that is Collin County. Where everything is the envy of all and the lifestyle is clean and pure.

[bigdaddydog]

nm

[bigdaddydog]

Tell the fine people in Katy to buy something from me and I just may do that.
Until then my loaylties are now tied to the greatness that is Collin County. Where everything is the envy of all and the lifestyle is clean and pure.

OMG It sure is gettin deep in here!! There's a flood a commin!!! :D

I am glad to see that you are prepared for the flood with your High Water Pants in this recent Sales Publicity shot of Farmer.

You clean up pretty nice!! ;)


http://www.morrisseymagic.com/hall/NERD.jpg
FARMERFAN Publicity Photograph

You gotta ask yourself, who would not want to buy from this man?


~

[farmerfan]

OMG It sure is gettin deep in here!! There's a flood a commin!!! :D

I am glad to see that you are prepared for the flood with your High Water Pants in this recent Sales Publicity shot of Farmer.

You clean up pretty nice!! ;)


http://www.morrisseymagic.com/hall/NERD.jpg
FARMERFAN Publicity Photograph

You gotta ask yourself, who would not want to buy from this man?


~

Where's the pocket protector?
Gosh you would think we could get some kind of accuracy in here.
;)

[Dynastybegan86]

Tell the fine people in Katy to buy something from me and I just may do that.
Until then my loaylties are now tied to the greatness that is Collin County. Where everything is the envy of all and the lifestyle is clean and pure.

What are you shovelling...err um, selling?

[DrEdward]

This thread turned ugly and sideways. :rolleyes:

[Pearland1]

If you want a real education go to Strake Jesuit Prep School in Houston. Only 800 students and stay away from public schools. End of story.

[ktCarl]

If you want a real education go to Strake Jesuit Prep School in Houston. Only 800 students and stay away from public schools. End of story.

And it's in a nice part of town.

[dragonsdaddy]

OMG It sure is gettin deep in here!! There's a flood a commin!!! :D

I am glad to see that you are prepared for the flood with your High Water Pants in this recent Sales Publicity shot of Farmer.

You clean up pretty nice!! ;)


http://www.morrisseymagic.com/hall/NERD.jpg
FARMERFAN Publicity Photograph

You gotta ask yourself, who would not want to buy from this man?


~
so far, the only cc floods are of the wind variety. i was surprised to find no damage to the property/possessions this am. i'd bet we had 50+mph gust for several hours last night.