Class 5A Divison I and II

[petion2000]

What's the deal with the two divisions systems, and can someone enlighten me as to why there are 2 divisions in 1 Class? To me, it doesn't make any sense to have two 5A States champions. Wouldn't it make more sense to create a 6A Class?

[THS PRINZ]

The thing I've heard for years is no 6a is because of travel.......they (UIL)
have a rubberband theory ...a given amount of area that you must stay within....some dist are long and skinny and some are real close together ...hence the word rubberband....Allen, the Planos, Trinity, Martin would be a good dist....I like the short travel to Grapevine and Colleyville better.....

[DrEdward]

What's the deal with the two divisions systems, and can someone enlighten me as to why there are 2 divisions in 1 Class? To me, it doesn't make any sense to have two 5A States champions. Wouldn't it make more sense to create a 6A Class?

Even if 6A were to be a solution to Class 5A (it's not), then one still has the same issue to deal with in 4A, 3A, 2A, etc. So if one wants to deal with said problem on a consistent basis, then one ends up with 10 classes plus six man.

[SLC]

Welcome to every year around here. This gets discussed ad nauseum amongst us fans here on a yearly basis, including all the way down to 1A and 6 man ball.

The basic idea of the split was this. The UIL didn't want to have schools of a bigger enrollment playing schools of a smaller enrollment in the playoffs.

Example - Plano East with an enrollment of 5852 students playing Dallas Jesuit with an enrollment of 2058 students. A difference of 3000 students...basically the equvilent of 2 Dallas Jesuits in respect to enrollment.

Ok, so the UIL in their wisdom said basically that what we were seeing (all the way down through the classifications) was the higher enrollment schools dominate due to having a larger amount of kids to choose from. They wanted a way to make it fair to have like or similar enrollment schools playing each other, like we have with seperation of 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A and 5A. Ok fine..Their thought process was a good one, as it had been through the years, when they created new classes at different times in our history. What made this time different was that they created a class within a class, rather than just creating a new class all together. Where the other classes they created through the years played the like size schools through the entire season (with exception of non-district games) , this new creation had teams of the different sizes in 5A playing each other through the season, but spliting them up in the playoffs.

Pretty much if you close your eyes and picture the 2 state champions, what you are seeing is (for illustration purposes only) a 5A champion and a 6A champion . Katy being the 5A champion and Allen being the 6A champion. In reality we have Katy as the D2 champion and Allen as the D1 champion. And we have this setup all the way down to 6 man. In Texas we crown 12 state champions per season. There are 2 classes within a classification all the way down to 6 man. So you have this...

6 man- small
6 man- big
1A- small
1A-big
2A- small
2A- big
3A- small
3A-big
4A-small
4A-big
5A-small
5A-big


What they (UIL) should have done was create a 6A and shift the schools in the same way they had done throughout the history of the state and it would then shift the classes all they way down through the classifications. After the good idea they had, they followed that up with a bad outcome or result...Thus the 2 champs. Now in creating a 6A you would have some teams still having to matchup against some of the bigger schools, its unavoidable, but you wouldn't have two schools the size I showed above playing each other..it would be a school more like the 3000 range and up.


Also bear in mind that the result the UIL came to followed what they wanted to have remain, which was, they liked the 2 teams from each district format and that was for each class...Ok well, in splitting up the class there by virtually making a 6A, they also kept the same setup with 2 teams from each enrollment group (A's) going to the playoffs..well because this occurs only at playoff time and the district includes higher enrollment and lower enrollment teams, then you have 4 teams from each district going to the playoffs...It wouldn't be as exaggerated if they were split up into classifications like a 6A. Then it would be just 2 teams from each district in 5A going to the playoffs and the same for 6A, 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A and 6 man. Thus 64 teams instead of 128 would be going to the playoffs. Basically it would be the same, except fully seperate of each other.

[KT2000]

Pretty much if you close your eyes and picture the 2 state champions, what you are seeing is (for illustration purposes only) a 5A champion and a 6A champion.

What they (UIL) should have done was create a 6A and shift the schools in the same way they had done throughout the history of the state and it would then shift the classes all they way down through the classifications. After the good idea they had, they followed that up with a bad outcome or result...Thus the 2 champs. Now in creating a 6A you would have some teams still having to matchup against some of the bigger schools, its unavoidable, but you wouldn't have two schools the size I showed above playing each other..it would be a school more like the 3000 range and up.

Technically, yes and no to your first paragraph. It could be seen in that manner, but there have been years when the Division 1 champion has actually been smaller than the Division 2 champion as well as years when there's been very little difference between the two.

The problem the UIL runs into when it comes to shifting the classes is that there aren't enough schools who would qualify for 6A in the rural parts of the state. This would create districts that included teams from the RGV with those from San Antonio and/or Corpus Christi. You'd have a similar problem with the West Texas and on a lesser scale with East Texas. Travel would be a bigger issue than it already is for some.

At most, a Class 6A would have 16 districts total. Class 5A would take on smaller schools as a result of shifting the enrollments to accommodate a higher class.

[SLC]

Technically, yes and no to your first paragraph. It could be seen in that manner, but there have been years when the Division 1 champion has actually been smaller than the Division 2 champion as well as years when there's been very little difference between the two.

The problem the UIL runs into when it comes to shifting the classes is that there aren't enough schools who would qualify for 6A in the rural parts of the state. This would create districts that included teams from the RGV with those from San Antonio and/or Corpus Christi. You'd have a similar problem with the West Texas and on a lesser scale with East Texas. Travel would be a bigger issue than it already is for some.

At most, a Class 6A would have 16 districts total. Class 5A would take on smaller schools as a result of shifting the enrollments to accommodate a higher class.


True, which came about as a result of having all the sizes mixed together in districts. They just take the best 4 teams, not the best 2 from each size within the district..If they were split into 6A and 5A, then you would have that seperation with the 2 6A teams being bigger than its 5A counterpart from the same number district.


And I always said that in my opinion I'd rather have one chamipion in each class, than being concerned with how many districts are in a given classification. a 16 district 6A classification would be fine if it were that way as would a 20 district 5A or a 22 district 4A...the number of districts in a given class wouldn't matter much if you are crowning one champ in it.

[DrEdward]

Technically, yes and no to your first paragraph. It could be seen in that manner, but there have been years when the Division 1 champion has actually been smaller than the Division 2 champion as well as years when there's been very little difference between the two.

The problem the UIL runs into when it comes to shifting the classes is that there aren't enough schools who would qualify for 6A in the rural parts of the state. This would create districts that included teams from the RGV with those from San Antonio and/or Corpus Christi. You'd have a similar problem with the West Texas and on a lesser scale with East Texas. Travel would be a bigger issue than it already is for some.

At most, a Class 6A would have 16 districts total. Class 5A would take on smaller schools as a result of shifting the enrollments to accommodate a higher class.

True, but not only do these issues arise, the fundamental problem that 6A is meant to address - relative size of schools competiing against each other is not really solved either.

In order to get a sufficient number of schools into a Class 6A, the school size would have to reach down to the 2400 student size or so. That is not all that much larger than the current minimum size for a 5A school. That would still mean that a school consisting of about 2400 students will be playing a school consisting of 5,000 plus students. The fundamental problem here is the town-size nature of the largest schools in Texas, particulalry those in areas such as Plano and Allen. Houston has a few as well.

[SLC]

True, but not only do these issues arise, the fundamental problem that 6A is meant to address - relative size of schools competiing against each other is not really solved either.

In order to get a sufficient number of schools into a Class 6A, the school size would have to reach down to the 2400 student size or so. That is not all that much larger than the current minimum size for a 5A school. That would still mean that a school consisting of about 2400 students will be playing a school consisting of 5,000 plus students. The fundamental problem here is the town-size nature of the largest schools in Texas, particulalry those in areas such as Plano and Allen. Houston has a few as well.



Well thats all going to depend on what people would view as a sufficient number of schools. It would all be relative to the number of districts created to encompass whatever number of schools fall into a created window of enrollment size. I think they could dip down to the 2900-3000 range and create a 6A...considering while doing this that the range would also be adjusted for 4A, 3A, 2A and so on...you would have the larger 4A's moving up to 5A and so on down the line. Your still going to have the really large schools such as the Plano's and Allen's competing with smaller enrollments..its just unavoidable because there are less than 10 I believe that are in that range of enrollment...And you wouldn't have a 5-10 team classification just to avoid them playing with the other size schools. What it would do is put a larger amount of schools in the 3000 and up range from competing with the 2000 range schools.


I dont think there is a perfect answer, but I do know if they think that all in all its not a big issue having the schools in mixed districts, then I feel like it should also not be a problem going back to having just 2 teams from each district making the playoffs regardless of size and then only crowing 1 champion.

[mojotrain]

As enrollment numbers now exist, if there was a 6-A classification then Odessa High and Permian High would be playing in a district made up of D/FW schools. Perhaps the only two schools west of D/FW with large enough numbers to play 6-A.

[THS PRINZ]

Having been a part of this for years (an insider)....it's travel...travel ...travel

[DrEdward]

By my count, if 3,000 were to be used as a cutoff for a 6A, there would be a total of 57 schools currently with that size enrollment. That would still result in a huge spread in the range of student size from 3000 to 5852 at the top currently. It is also clear that 57 teams is no where near enough to fill out 16 distircts. If one were to decrease the cut off to 2,900 students, only an additional 13 schools would be added to the list of a 6A, still no where near enough to fill out anywhere near 16 districts. Plus a simple look at what might be Region 1-6A with eight teams would stretch from El Paso to Lewisville if the 3,000 cut-offf figure were employed. Not exactly an efficient traveling arrangement.

[DrEdward]

As enrollment numbers now exist, if there was a 6-A classification then Odessa High and Permian High would be playing in a district made up of D/FW schools. Perhaps the only two schools west of D/FW with large enough numbers to play 6-A.

If we were to utilize a cutoff of 3,000 for 6A, then El Paso Franklin and Midland would join you in that classification before you hit the metroplex schools. Dropping down to 2,900, you would also pick up San Angelp Central befor making the jump to the metroplex. But in either case, you're correct, any 6A district larger than five schools for you guys would necessarily involve at least Arlington schools.

[CyFallsMom]

Believe me, we ask ourselves the same question sometimes. It used to be that only the district champ went to the playoffs and there was one bonafide champ. But, there were FAR less schools then too. Then, in my opinion, two things happened. Fun Fair Positive bullcrap and the many districts' desire to make money. That is only my opinion and I'm going back to when they first split into divisions. Since then, there have been tons of new schools opening and so two teams makes perfect sense. It's the FOUR teams out of each district that I don't understand. They split them up into two divisions by size of the schools. I would love to see Division 6A and then put the smaller schools in 5A.

BTW - are you from Hempstead or Temple? You have both down under your name. My daughter lives in Wantagh and goes to NCC over in Hempstead. She works in Westbury so she's all over Nassau! Hubby is from Syosset.

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

Hey lets put a cap on a number of students you can have before UIL makes you build another. ;)Thats about as smart as making the split when the playoffs start. If the smaller schools are good enough to play the larger in the regular season then why not in playoffs. I.E. Wylie stood toe to toe in regular season with Allen and Plano. Went all the way to the finals and played a team that some would say could beat Allen or play them to a tight game. I dont think making another division is the answer, like posted by someone else earlier, too much traveling for the west.

[SLC]

Hey lets put a cap on a number of students you can have before UIL makes you build another. ;)Thats about as smart as making the split when the playoffs start. If the smaller schools are good enough to play the larger in the regular season then why not in playoffs. I.E. Wylie stood toe to toe in regular season with Allen and Plano. Went all the way to the finals and played a team that some would say could beat Allen or play them to a tight game. I dont think making another division is the answer, like posted by someone else earlier, too much traveling for the west.


I would agree to what you're saying here. Teams like Carroll, Katy, Wylie, and many many others have shown they can compete with any size school in the state. The process, it would seem anyway, is that they need to take only two teams from a district, regardless if that means two big schools or two little schools or one big and one little qualify, then thats what we should have. then we can go back to having one state champion.

[E-Vol-ution]

Freeport in the house!
Believe me, we ask ourselves the same question sometimes. It used to be that only the district champ went to the playoffs and there was one bonafide champ. But, there were FAR less schools then too. Then, in my opinion, two things happened. Fun Fair Positive bullcrap and the many districts' desire to make money. That is only my opinion and I'm going back to when they first split into divisions. Since then, there have been tons of new schools opening and so two teams makes perfect sense. It's the FOUR teams out of each district that I don't understand. They split them up into two divisions by size of the schools. I would love to see Division 6A and then put the smaller schools in 5A.

BTW - are you from Hempstead or Temple? You have both down under your name. My daughter lives in Wantagh and goes to NCC over in Hempstead. She works in Westbury so she's all over Nassau! Hubby is from Syosset.

[dada]

Some one who has time....go ahead and take the numbers and tell us what 6A
Districts would look like if there was a 6A. I think the KT's did something like that a few years ago.

[BlakeJ]

Do any of you have a couple tylenol for the headache you just gave me?? :o

[CyFallsMom]

Freeport in the house!


Very near Wantagh! Any Suffolk County out there? In-Laws are in Port Jeff and sister in law is in Nesconset. There are some beautiful towns up there - that's for sure.

I mentioned 5atexasfootball when I was up there in October (even wore my shirt in Manhattan) - I was wondering if anybody would be checking the site out from LI.

[E-Vol-ution]

A lot of LI folks are down here.
A few guys visit this site that I know of. There are plenty of guys who check out hs games across the country and keep tabs on hot spots.Very near Wantagh! Any Suffolk County out there? In-Laws are in Port Jeff and sister in law is in Nesconset. There are some beautiful towns up there - that's for sure.

I mentioned 5atexasfootball when I was up there in October (even wore my shirt in Manhattan) - I was wondering if anybody would be checking the site out from LI.

[slcdragonfan]

Worked in LI for 5 years, commuting back and forth. Stayed in New Hyde Park, Great Neck, Garden City and worked in Lake Success. I enjoyed it except for the traffic. Great food...:notworthy

[E-Vol-ution]

Great food and nice views.
Worked in LI for 5 years, commuting back and forth. Stayed in New Hyde Park, Great Neck, Garden City and worked in Lake Success. I enjoyed it except for the traffic. Great food...:notworthy

[CyFallsMom]

Worked in LI for 5 years, commuting back and forth. Stayed in New Hyde Park, Great Neck, Garden City and worked in Lake Success. I enjoyed it except for the traffic. Great food...:notworthy

Very good ethnic food there and restaurants on every corner almost. I love the diners too. When we went in October, we hit 4 different diners in the same 2 square mile radius around Wantagh/Bellemore! :). And the BAGELS!! Nothing like them anywhere else. I can't believe I hijacked this thread so quickly;)

[DrEdward]

Some one who has time....go ahead and take the numbers and tell us what 6A
Districts would look like if there was a 6A. I think the KT's did something like that a few years ago.

Using what parameters for 6A? Over 3,000? At least 6 teams per district? How many districts - 8, 16?

I don't mind taking a shot at it, but let's try to get some agreement up front on the basics.

[dada]

Using what parameters for 6A? Over 3,000? At least 6 teams per district? How many districts - 8, 16?

I don't mind taking a shot at it, but let's try to get some agreement up front on the basics.

Let's say 6A is 2800 and above(are there enough schools over 3k?)

[DrEdward]

Let's say 6A is 2800 and above(are there enough schools over 3k?)

Well shoot. I have the schools over 2,900, but will have to go back and look at 2,800 and above. I suspect there are lots in the 2,800 range. Be back later.

[dada]

Well shoot. I have the schools over 2,900, but will have to go back and look at 2,800 and above. I suspect there are lots in the 2,800 range. Be back later.

2,900 is good...go with that

[smw358]

What's the deal with the two divisions systems, and can someone enlighten me as to why there are 2 divisions in 1 Class? To me, it doesn't make any sense to have two 5A States champions. Wouldn't it make more sense to create a 6A Class?

It's kinda like my daughters cheerleading squad. I went to the competition and was amazed that they were "National Champions." A few minutes later another team was National Champions. I went out into the lobby and saw another team that was National Champions. I came back to the award ceremony and everyone was on the stage getting ribbons. I then realized that the awards ie...trophy companies, the photography companies, the sponsors of the event were all getting lots of money. I think the 2 divisions in the same class in football must work the same way. It doesn't make sense any other way. :rolleyes:

[dada]

wow...this IS time consuming...don't think I can finish it today.

So far I have:
1-6A:
EP Americas
EP El Dorado
EP Franklin
EP Socorro


2-6A:
Midland
Midland Lee
Odessa
Permian
San Angelo Central

3-6A:
Arlington
Arlington Bowie
Arlington Houston
Arlington Lamar
Arlington Martin


4-6A:
Trinity Justin NW
Keller
Keller Central
Coppell



1 5A:
EP Bel Air
EP Coronado
EP Eastwood
Ep hanks
Ep Montwood


2-5A:
Amarillo
Amarillo Tas
Lubbock
Lubbock Coranado
Lubbock Montery

3-5A:
Abilene
Burleson
FW Haltom
FW Paschal
N. Crowley
Richland

4-5A:
Weatherford
Mansfield
Mans. Summit
Colly. Heratige
Grapevine
Hurst Bell

[KT2000]

2,900 is good...go with that

The geography gets jacked up.

The following schools would qualify with enrollments near or above 3,000. Throw in Victoria Memorial as well.

Del Rio
Laredo United

Donna
La Joya
Brownsville Hanna

There's also an imbalance of schools in central Texas and none from Texarkana to Orange across East Texas. Geographically, it's unworkable.

[dada]

The geography gets jacked up.

The following schools would qualify with enrollments near or above 3,000. Throw in Victoria Memorial as well.

Del Rio
Laredo United

Donna
La Joya
Brownsville Hanna

There's also an imbalance of schools in central Texas and none from Texarkana to Orange across East Texas. Geographically, it's unworkable.

I tried it with 6A being 2800+ and it gave me a headache...I don't even feel like working anymore...ready to go home.

[E-Vol-ution]

What's weird is we are identical in 3-6A while leaving out Mansfield and Summit. Thought they had a larger enrollment than Sam Houston but...oh well...
wow...this IS time consuming...don't think I can finish it today.

So far I have:
1-6A:
EP Americas
EP El Dorado
EP Franklin
EP Socorro


2-6A:
Midland
Midland Lee
Odessa
Permian
San Angelo Central

3-6A:
Arlington
Arlington Bowie
Arlington Houston
Arlington Lamar
Arlington Martin


4-6A:
Trinity Justin NW
Keller
Keller Central
Coppell



1 5A:
EP Bel Air
EP Coronado
EP Eastwood
Ep hanks
Ep Montwood


2-5A:
Amarillo
Amarillo Tas
Lubbock
Lubbock Coranado
Lubbock Montery

3-5A:
Abilene
Burleson
FW Haltom
FW Paschal
N. Crowley
Richland

4-5A:
Weatherford
Mansfield
Mans. Summit
Colly. Heratige
Grapevine
Hurst Bell

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

I would agree to what you're saying here. Teams like Carroll, Katy, Wylie, and many many others have shown they can compete with any size school in the state. The process, it would seem anyway, is that they need to take only two teams from a district, regardless if that means two big schools or two little schools or one big and one little qualify, then thats what we should have. then we can go back to having one state champion.
Maybe 4 teams still make the playoffs, but you must win your district to move on. 1-4 and2-3 winners play for district championship and move on. I know the current system allows district teams not to face each other until later. But if you both survive you will have to face each other to win the region, so what is the difference there. I would dare to say there would be as many teams below the 2500 enrollment by the time you got down to 16 teams. Probably the same number of champions over the span of 10 years.

[SLC]

Maybe 4 teams still make the playoffs, but you must win your district to move on. 1-4 and2-3 winners play for district championship and move on. I know the current system allows district teams not to face each other until later. But if you both survive you will have to face each other to win the region, so what is the difference there. I would dare to say there would be as many teams below the 2500 enrollment by the time you got down to 16 teams. Probably the same number of champions over the span of 10 years.


Yea, I'm just personally not a fan of taking 4 teams. 2 per district is plenty, then you get only district champs and runner ups in the playoffs. For me the district is won through the regular season, not in a playoff format. If you finish 4th you should not still be able to play for the district title.

[DrEdward]

Current Distribution of Schools in 5A by Enrollment

Under 2100....................14
2100 - 2200...................28
2200 - 2300...................21
2300 - 2400...................23
2400 - 2500...................23
2500 - 2600...................14
2600 - 2700...................18
2700 - 2800...................13
2800 - 2900...................16
2900 - 3000...................13
3000 - 4000...................47
4000 - 5000....................7
Over 5000.......................3

Aside from the somewhat ugly geographic distribution issues associated with the creation of a 6A, the distribution indicates that to reach any reasonable mass for a 6A in terms of the number of schools, one must move the cut off down to the area around 2600. Using schools larger than 2600 students would provide for 117 schools in 6A, leaving 123 in 5A, assuming that no current 4A schools are moved up.

To get 16 districts made up of 6A schools, that implies an average of just over 7 such schools per district which would be clunky at best, so we will end up with mostly 8 team districts and some 6 team districts. (I'll give you a list of the schools later tonight or tomorrow.)

The issue with respect to 6A is to be really gain all that much by simply moving the dividing line for the largest classification to 2600 from just below 2100 currently? Of course, this would also compress 5A to be approximately between 2100 and 2600, a much more compact spread than would be the 6A range.

[SLC]

Current Distribution of Schools in 5A by Enrollment

Under 2100....................14
2100 - 2200...................28
2200 - 2300...................21
2300 - 2400...................23
2400 - 2500...................23
2500 - 2600...................14
2600 - 2700...................18
2700 - 2800...................13
2800 - 2900...................16
2900 - 3000...................13
3000 - 4000...................47
4000 - 5000....................7
Over 5000.......................3

Aside from the somewhat ugly geographic distribution issues associated with the creation of a 6A, the distribution indicates that to reach any reasonable mass for a 6A in terms of the number of schools, one must move the cut off down to the area around 2600. Using schools larger than 2600 students would provide for 117 schools in 6A, leaving 123 in 5A, assuming that no current 4A schools are moved up.

To get 16 districts made up of 6A schools, that implies an average of just over 7 such schools per district which would be clunky at best, so we will end up with mostly 8 team districts and some 6 team districts. (I'll give you a list of the schools later tonight or tomorrow.)

The issue with respect to 6A is to be really gain all that much by simply moving the dividing line for the largest classification to 2600 from just below 2100 currently? Of course, this would also compress 5A to be approximately between 2100 and 2600, a much more compact spread than would be the 6A range.


I would think that all the current classifications (12) would need to be adjusted so that we end up with 7 classes...or at least including 1-5A and if they want they can have 2 champs in 6 man, as maybe most are only concerned with 11 man football. That would give us 6 classes, cause I cant make any sense of having a 5A and a 6A and still having 2 champs in the 1-4A or 6 man-4A.

I'm certainly not asking you to look at all of the classes, I'm just thinking a loud that all the numbers would need to be adjusted to bring us to a workable 6 classes.

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

Yea, I'm just personally not a fan of taking 4 teams. 2 per district is plenty, then you get only district champs and runner ups in the playoffs. For me the district is won through the regular season, not in a playoff format. If you finish 4th you should not still be able to play for the district title.
I agree that only two should go, but there is more money due to more venues being used and that seems to be one of the factors the UIL wants and has 4 teams going. I know sometimes only taking 2 teams will potentially keep a team out that could go deep i.e. Wylie was a third seed. But I am a big proponent of regular season games meaning more. Plus, removing one round of playoffs would help other sports i.e. basketball. And to win a state championship you have to play more games than they play at the next level, or least the big boys.

[DrEdward]

I would think that all the current classifications (12) would need to be adjusted so that we end up with 7 classes...or at least including 1-5A and if they want they can have 2 champs in 6 man, as maybe most are only concerned with 11 man football. That would give us 6 classes, cause I cant make any sense of having a 5A and a 6A and still having 2 champs in the 1-4A or 6 man-4A.

I'm certainly not asking you to look at all of the classes, I'm just thinking a loud that all the numbers would need to be adjusted to bring us to a workable 6 classes.

I would agree, but what is the objective here? To get schools more in line by size of enrollment or simply to have one champion per classification. If the former, then given the distribution by enrollment, it is quite difficult to achieve. There is simply too much of a spread between the largest schools and the balance of the state to ever really achieve anything approaching parity in the largest classification.

Given the geographic/travel concerns, if the objective is simply to have one champion per classification, then, just leave the current classifications and districts much as they are today. Simply don't do this D-I/D-II nonsense. One could simply go back to only district champions moving on to the playoffs or even the top two teams, if one were so-inclined. Creating more classifications really doesn't solve much of anything.

[SLC]

I would agree, but what is the objective here? To get schools more in line by size of enrollment or simply to have one champion per classification. If the former, then given the distribution by enrollment, it is quite difficult to achieve. There is simply too much of a spread between the largest schools and the balance of the state to ever really achieve anything approaching parity in the largest classification.

Given the geographic/travel concerns, if the objective is simply to have one champion per classification, then, just leave the current classifications and districts much as they are today. Simply don't do this D-I/D-II nonsense. One could simply go back to only district champions moving on to the playoffs or even the top two teams, if one were so-inclined. Creating more classifications really doesn't solve much of anything.



I completely agree Doc...I think whats led us on this hoorah and what inevitabally leads us on it each season is to have a unified champion. With the belief that we are indeed the best state in terms of our high school football, there is only one thing that seems to keep us from being able to fully set ourselves aside from the pack and thats the horible way in which we crown 2 champs per class. I have stated many times that the UIL on one hand had a good thought in mind in wanting to create a fair playing field as far as enrollment is concerned, then on the other hand they reached an ill concieved conclusion on how to achieve the idea. And also it would seem that when they decided to take on the current set up in 1990 that what solution could be applied at that time doesn't apply today. There is evidence each year that schools in the 2100-3000 range can compete and compete very well with the larger schools and it also appears to be the case in the other sports as well. My knowledge of the lower classifications on how they are fairing in the same scenario tells me that its the same with them as well.


I would be much happier with 2 teams qualifying for the playoffs from each district and ending the season with 1 title winner and I think most everyone else would as well. This would obviously mean less money for the schools and the UIL though and I'm not sure they would be ok with that, in fact I completely doubt they would, but then again we are talking about entities that cant see the ludacris and laughable nature of having 12 state champions either.

[DrEdward]

While SLC and I have agreed that creating a new 6A classification doesn't really do much, here is the list of schools by size of enrollment from 2600 students up to the largest in Plano East. This would yield the largest 117 schools in Texas currently.

2600 -2700

El Paso Montwood
L.D. Bell
Garland
Mesquite
Tyler Lee
Round Rock
Katy
Katy Mayde Creek
Pasadena Memorial
Clear Brook
San Antonio O’Connor
San Antonio Warren
La Joya Palmview
Mission Sheryland
Rio Grande City
Edinburg
Brownsville Pace
San Benito


2700 - 2800

Irving
Irving Nimitz
Wylie
Tomball
Katy Cinco Ranch
Katy Taylor
Ft. Bend Hightower
Austin Bowie
San Antonio MacArthur
San Antonio Jay
San Antonio Clark
Harlingen

2800 - 2900

El Paso Americans
El Paso El Dorado
El Paso Socorro
Midland Lee
Irving MacArthur
Richardson Berkner
Desoto
Spring Dekaney
Round Rock McNeil
Katy - Morton Ranch
Houston Westside
Alvin
Clute Brazoswood
San Antonio Roosevelt
San Antonio Taft
San Antonio Southwest

2900 - 3000

San Angelo Central
Arlington Bowie
Arlington Sam Houston
Arlington Lamar
Trinity
Keller
Keller Central
Coppell
Flower Mound
Flower Mound Marcus
Conroe
Georgetown
Churchill


3000 - 4000

El Paso Franklin
Midland
Odessa
Odessa Permian
Arlington
Arlington Martin
Justin Northwest
Lewisville
Duncanville
South Grand Prarie
Bryan
Klein
Klein Collins
Klein Forrest
Klein Oak
Spring
Spring Westfield
The Woodlands
Houston Cy Creek
Houston Cy Fair
Houston Cy Falls
Cy Ridge
Cy Springs
Jersey Village
Langham Creek
Round Rock Stoney Point
Houston Aldine
Houston Eisnhower
Houston MacArthur
Atascocita
Kingwood
Bellaire
Houston Lamar
Deer Park
Dobie
Pearland
Clear Lake
Clear Creek
Madison
Judson
Victoria Memorial
San Antonio Stevens
Del Rio
Laredo United
Donna
La Joya
Hanna


4000 - 5000

Allen
Plano West
Cypress Woods
Alief Elsik
Alief Hastings
Houston Nimitz
Galena Park North Shore


Over 5000

Plano
Plano East
Dallas Skyline

[Redhoss]

While SLC and I have agreed that creating a new 6A classification doesn't really do much, here is the list of schools by size of enrollment from 2600 students up to the largest in Plano East. This would yield the largest 117 schools in Texas currently.

2600 -2700

El Paso Montwood
L.D. Bell
Garland
Mesquite
Tyler Lee
Round Rock
Katy
Katy Mayde Creek
Pasadena Memorial
Clear Brook
San Antonio O’Connor
San Antonio Warren
La Joya Palmview
Mission Sheryland
Rio Grande City
Edinburg
Brownsville Pace
San Benito


2700 - 2800

Irving
Irving Nimitz
Wylie
Tomball
Katy Cinco Ranch
Katy Taylor
Ft. Bend Hightower
Austin Bowie
San Antonio MacArthur
San Antonio Jay
San Antonio Clark
Harlingen

2800 - 2900

El Paso Americans
El Paso El Dorado
El Paso Socorro
Midland Lee
Irving MacArthur
Richardson Berkner
Desoto
Spring Dekaney
Round Rock McNeil
Katy - Morton Ranch
Houston Westside
Alvin
Clute Brazoswood
San Antonio Roosevelt
San Antonio Taft
San Antonio Southwest

2900 - 3000

San Angelo Central
Arlington Bowie
Arlington Sam Houston
Arlington Lamar
Trinity
Keller
Keller Central
Coppell
Flower Mound
Flower Mound Marcus
Conroe
Georgetown
Churchill


3000 - 4000

El Paso Franklin
Midland
Odessa
Odessa Permian
Arlington
Arlington Martin
Justin Northwest
Lewisville
Duncanville
South Grand Prarie
Bryan
Klein
Klein Collins
Klein Forrest
Klein Oak
Spring
Spring Westfield
The Woodlands
Houston Cy Creek
Houston Cy Fair
Houston Cy Falls
Cy Ridge
Cy Springs
Jersey Village
Langham Creek
Round Rock Stoney Point
Houston Aldine
Houston Eisnhower
Houston MacArthur
Atascocita
Kingwood
Bellaire
Houston Lamar
Deer Park
Dobie
Pearland
Clear Lake
Clear Creek
Madison
Judson
Victoria Memorial
San Antonio Stevens
Del Rio
Laredo United
Donna
La Joya
Hanna


4000 - 5000

Allen
Plano West
Cypress Woods
Alief Elsik
Alief Hastings
Houston Nimitz
Galena Park North Shore


Over 5000

Plano
Plano East
Dallas Skyline


That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.

[SLC]

That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.

The goal isnt parity...the goal is one state champion, instead of this two state champion crap.

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.
I dont think it is feasible to force ISDs to build merely from a monetary standpoint. Sounds good though. Anything to get one state champion would sound good to me.

[85Roughneck]

The goal isnt parity...the goal is one state champion, instead of this two state champion crap.

I think we all need to consider some facts about the great state of Texas when it comes to our high school football and this age old discussion of "two state champions in 5A".

Fact #1 Texas is a great state. (no brag, just fact ;))
Fact #2 Texas is arguably the best state for high school football (again ... just fact :D)
Fact #3 Texas is the largest state in the contiguous 48, bar none. (who sang "I can see miles and miles of Texas"?)
Fact #4 D1 is made up of larger 5A schools and D2 is made up of smaller 5A schools

I wouldn't go so far as to say we have two state champs in 5A football because we don't. We have a 5AD1 champ and a 5AD2 champ. Each on their own, D1 and D2, is a seperate class once the playoffs start.

What's in a name really, fellas? Either we call it 10A down to 1A or we call in 5AD1 down to 1AD2 (and then of course the 6 man teams would be included.)

Question: Has a D2 champ ever been larger in enrollment than a D1 champ or is this even possible?

The way the UIL has it set up keeps many parents and students from having to travel to far to participate. The financial burden would be too much otherwise. Furthermore, the current setup does allow for more kids to be involved. I'm fortunate that my son plays for the Tigers and my boy and I are even more fortunate that he played for the Tigers in '07 as a junior and also in '08 as a senior. No parent could ask for more than that.

I will concede this ... this is always a very enlightening, educational, and enjoyable discussion. I'm glad to be in this chat with the rest of you. I always walk away having learned somethin from the likes of KT, SLC, and the Doc. Thanks!

[mojotrain]

That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.

OK redhoss I appoint you to force ECISD to build another school and then you can finance it. Look at it the other way. Have every other D2 school shut down, and combine. No finance needed.

On the other foot if the UIL would bail us out then they would control us and they could tell us what to do. Oh, thats already being done it just not UIL.

[DrEdward]

I think we all need to consider some facts about the great state of Texas when it comes to our high school football and this age old discussion of "two state champions in 5A".

Fact #1 Texas is a great state. (no brag, just fact ;))
Fact #2 Texas is arguably the best state for high school football (again ... just fact :D)
Fact #3 Texas is the largest state in the contiguous 48, bar none. (who sang "I can see miles and miles of Texas"?)
Fact #4 D1 is made up of larger 5A schools and D2 is made up of smaller 5A schools

I wouldn't go so far as to say we have two state champs in 5A football because we don't. We have a 5AD1 champ and a 5AD2 champ. Each on their own, D1 and D2, is a seperate class once the playoffs start.

What's in a name really, fellas? Either we call it 10A down to 1A or we call in 5AD1 down to 1AD2 (and then of course the 6 man teams would be included.)

Question: Has a D2 champ ever been larger in enrollment than a D1 champ or is this even possible?

The way the UIL has it set up keeps many parents and students from having to travel to far to participate. The financial burden would be too much otherwise. Furthermore, the current setup does allow for more kids to be involved. I'm fortunate that my son plays for the Tigers and my boy and I are even more fortunate that he played for the Tigers in '07 as a junior and also in '08 as a senior. No parent could ask for more than that.

I will concede this ... this is always a very enlightening, educational, and enjoyable discussion. I'm glad to be in this chat with the rest of you. I always walk away having learned somethin from the likes of KT, SLC, and the Doc. Thanks!

Indeed, it is possible, as the participants are determined by how they finish in their respective districts. Of course, it has also happened in practice that the eventual D1 champion was smaller in enrollment than the D2 champion - Carroll was the smaller school playing for the D1 title the same year that Cedar Hill won the D2 title.

[SLC]

I think we all need to consider some facts about the great state of Texas when it comes to our high school football and this age old discussion of "two state champions in 5A".

Fact #1 Texas is a great state. (no brag, just fact ;))
Fact #2 Texas is arguably the best state for high school football (again ... just fact :D)
Fact #3 Texas is the largest state in the contiguous 48, bar none. (who sang "I can see miles and miles of Texas"?)
Fact #4 D1 is made up of larger 5A schools and D2 is made up of smaller 5A schools

I wouldn't go so far as to say we have two state champs in 5A football because we don't. We have a 5AD1 champ and a 5AD2 champ. Each on their own, D1 and D2, is a seperate class once the playoffs start.

What's in a name really, fellas? Either we call it 10A down to 1A or we call in 5AD1 down to 1AD2 (and then of course the 6 man teams would be included.)

Question: Has a D2 champ ever been larger in enrollment than a D1 champ or is this even possible?

The way the UIL has it set up keeps many parents and students from having to travel to far to participate. The financial burden would be too much otherwise. Furthermore, the current setup does allow for more kids to be involved. I'm fortunate that my son plays for the Tigers and my boy and I are even more fortunate that he played for the Tigers in '07 as a junior and also in '08 as a senior. No parent could ask for more than that.

I will concede this ... this is always a very enlightening, educational, and enjoyable discussion. I'm glad to be in this chat with the rest of you. I always walk away having learned somethin from the likes of KT, SLC, and the Doc. Thanks!


Well first...Yes, this state plays the best football regardless of having 12 state champions. I dont think we are saying any different really. What some of us are saying is two things really....

1. We really have no need for a seperation of sizes within a class. (Its obviously understandable to seperate 1A from 5A, 2A from 4A and so on)

2. If the real need is there to seperate the D1-D2 thing, then if the numbers are workable (which by all counts they are not) then it should be done in order to achieve having a single champion in each class.


As far as #1 goes- Once upon a time there was a need for changes to be made to the classes every so often due to the rapidly changing enrollment sizes. It has been shown with results well documented, that schools today are able to compete with others regardless if they are smaller or others are just bigger. Read: it has been several years since Plano has won a title, which means they are being beat before the title games occur and they arent losing to schools with anywhere near the enrollment numbers that they themselves enjoy. Let it be JUST 5A and take only 2 teams per district, regardless of what size they are.

As far as #2 goes- If we are going to seperate them by size in the playoffs, then it only makes since to create another class and let all the teams play in a class with teams of like size ( the less than 10 that have the really high numbers will always be with teams who's schools enjoy lessor enrollment numbers..its absolutely unavoidable) Read: these same really big schools are not winning the title every year..creating a monopoly...It just isn't happening like that at all. All the other teams in 5A are competing quite well against each other...pre district proves that as well as district games against larger teams than they are...If that is the case, then it absolutey flys in the face of the origional intent of the creating of the odd system at all.


The idea isnt that the name sucks....its that we crown 2 champs in one class.....after the teams in the class have been told they will play everyone in district, but are suddenly shelterd from the bigger schools once the playoffs begin...Thats a problem that even the excuse machine UIL cant explain without looking absolutely ridiculus.


I dont know if the D2 champ has been larger than the D1 champ, but it is certainly possible for it to occur....and its directly possible because of the 4 teams per district advancing rule...They take the 4 best records and those teams advance, they then take the 2 biggest and split from the 2 smallest..in every district they do this. In a 6 team district #4 could be the largest team advancing and they would be D1...another district could have 10 teams and the 4 best records advance and their #3 could be one of the smallest to advance and would be D2.. In this example the #4 from the 6 team district is Marcus and #3 from the 10 team district is Midland...Midlands enrollment is higher than is Marcus and Marcus could win the D1 title and Midland could win the D2 title.


The issue with travel in regards to a 6A is a problem and could be avoided by keeping 5A, but only taking 2 teams per district to give us the 1 champ per class. The issue with more kids getting to participate with the current setup is a plus, but shouldn't be a hinderence in avoiding handing out an extra trophy for the entire sake of keeping teams apart in the playoffs, when they've been playing those teams for 10 weeks to begin with.

[Exwildcat79]

That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.

This may have been mentioned. I have not read all the post. The Odessa schools ( OHS and Permian ) are 10 - 12 grades only. Freshman are still housed at the JH level. Not many HS are still structured this way. So, to make the numbers make sense and be able to compare to other schools, the numbers for each HS also include the 9th graders at each feeder school. The numbers also include other students not housed at the campus (Alt. Ed, Career Center, etc.) All this is said to show the HS in Odessa do not have 3000 - 4000 students to draw from on campus. It is closer to 2300 - 2500, but the UIL uses these other students to compare apples to apples.

[Redhoss]

The goal isnt parity...the goal is one state champion, instead of this two state champion crap.

I understand that. My point was, if you achieve the parity the UIL thinks is lacking, then you don't need TWO Divisions and the result is ONE Champion. Sorry I didn't splain myself better. :D

[Redhoss]

OK redhoss I appoint you to force ECISD to build another school and then you can finance it. Look at it the other way. Have every other D2 school shut down, and combine. No finance needed.

On the other foot if the UIL would bail us out then they would control us and they could tell us what to do. Oh, thats already being done it just not UIL.

I really know how to draw you out Train. I'll get right on it. :D

Actually you can't combine two d2 schools either. You don't have room for both in either school.

I'm sure the UIL can get some of the stimulus to make it happen. :rolleyes:

I expected this would stir up a lot of different thinking and it's all just talk anyway. We know the UIL isn't capable of doing it by past action.

[Redhoss]

This may have been mentioned. I have not read all the post. The Odessa schools ( OHS and Permian ) are 10 - 12 grades only. Freshman are still housed at the JH level. Not many HS are still structured this way. So, to make the numbers make sense and be able to compare to other schools, the numbers for each HS also include the 9th graders at each feeder school. The numbers also include other students not housed at the campus (Alt. Ed, Career Center, etc.) All this is said to show the HS in Odessa do not have 3000 - 4000 students to draw from on campus. It is closer to 2300 - 2500, but the UIL uses these other students to compare apples to apples.

I knew using the Odessa schools in my example wasn't going to be apples to apples but I threw them in so as not to offend anyone. :D

It's good that you have pointed this out once again.

[CCHS77]

This may have been mentioned. I have not read all the post. The Odessa schools ( OHS and Permian ) are 10 - 12 grades only. Freshman are still housed at the JH level. Not many HS are still structured this way. So, to make the numbers make sense and be able to compare to other schools, the numbers for each HS also include the 9th graders at each feeder school. The numbers also include other students not housed at the campus (Alt. Ed, Career Center, etc.) All this is said to show the HS in Odessa do not have 3000 - 4000 students to draw from on campus. It is closer to 2300 - 2500, but the UIL uses these other students to compare apples to apples.


Regardless of where (within a specific ISD) 9th, 10th or 11th grade kids are housed, they are counted towards the enrollment. As you pointed out, its done to make the comparisons equal.

But you still have those students to "draw from" as they are eligible for varsity competition. Maybe your ISD chooses not to use them (either from a talent level, maturity level, complexities of including them because of distances between facilities, etc.) but they are included for a reason.

[Exwildcat79]

Regardless of where (within a specific ISD) 9th, 10th or 11th grade kids are housed, they are counted towards the enrollment. As you pointed out, its done to make the comparisons equal.

But you still have those students to "draw from" as they are eligible for varsity competition. Maybe your ISD chooses not to use them (either from a talent level, maturity level, complexities of including them because of distances between facilities, etc.) but they are included for a reason.

The 9th graders are not eligible for varsity in all sports. The only ones they are eligible for are ones not offered at the JH level (baseball in ECISD comes to mind). I apologize if this has been brought up previously.

[CCHS77]

The 9th graders are not eligible for varsity in all sports. The only ones they are eligible for are ones not offered at the JH level (baseball in ECISD comes to mind). I apologize if this has been brought up previously.

Your 9th graders are eligible, according to the UIL. So to say they may not be, is a local choice.

BTW, my Wheaties are fine. Thanks!

[Exwildcat79]

Your 9th graders are eligible, according to the UIL. So to say they may not be, is a local choice.

BTW, my Wheaties are fine. Thanks!

Glad to hear it. Tried to correct but not fast enough. I had your reply confused with another poster. My apologies.:o

[NHB06]

That's a lot of good work on your part.

I'm thinking if our goal is to reach something near parity, why not set a maximum size for schools. For example, force Plano and the Odessa schools to build other schools and draw new boundaries limiting the schools to approx. 3000 students.

Plano has been this way since the 70's. The Plano community chose to keep the enrollment high at the senior high level. Why should the state force us to change? It is our school system. We have a right to design our schools however we want in order to meet the needs of the community.

[Redhoss]

Plano has been this way since the 70's. The Plano community chose to keep the enrollment high at the senior high level. Why should the state force us to change? It is our school system. We have a right to design our schools however we want in order to meet the needs of the community.

You are also a minute part of the bigger picture and aren't free from the rules that govern us all.
I'm not defending the UIL, I'm just saying that it might help to make the enrollments more even, thereby eliminating the need for two divisions.

[SLC]

You are also a minute part of the bigger picture and aren't free from the rules that govern us all.
I'm not defending the UIL, I'm just saying that it might help to make the enrollments more even, thereby eliminating the need for two divisions.



I'm doubting there is any longer a need to have the two divisions based off results of smaller schools playing the 10 or so really big schools. We live in an age of actual proof being used as a measuring stick...The actual proof is there..on the scoreboard and in the record books.

[NHB06]

You are also a minute part of the bigger picture and aren't free from the rules that govern us all.
I'm not defending the UIL, I'm just saying that it might help to make the enrollments more even, thereby eliminating the need for two divisions.

There is no state rule that mandates a specific enrollment cap. Therefore, the Plano ISD is free to structure the school system according to the needs of the community and wishes of the voters.

[Redhoss]

I'm doubting there is any longer a need to have the two divisions based off results of smaller schools playing the 10 or so really big schools. We live in an age of actual proof being used as a measuring stick...The actual proof is there..on the scoreboard and in the record books.

While I don't disagree, you'll have to convince the UIL and that's not going to happen. :mad:

[NHB06]

While I don't disagree, you'll have to convince the UIL and that's not going to happen. :mad:

Personally, I've never understood the need for a Div I and II. When a team like Allen with 4k+ students can easily go Div I or II in any given year, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Division II?

[SLC]

Personally, I've never understood the need for a Div I and II. When a team like Allen with 4k+ students can easily go Div I or II in any given year, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Division II?


It does...and its that way throughout the state...though the underlying issue with the UIL is whether teams can compete fairly in the playoffs with these bigger schools...I say the answer is on the scoreboard if they care to look.

Also, one thing with Allen...they really only stand the chance for D2 because of the district they are in...If they were in almost any other district, they would go D1 everytime they qualified for the playoffs.

[NHB06]

It does...and its that way throughout the state...though the underlying issue with the UIL is whether teams can compete fairly in the playoffs with these bigger schools...I say the answer is on the scoreboard if they care to look.

Also, one thing with Allen...they really only stand the chance for D2 because of the district they are in...If they were in almost any other district, they would go D1 everytime they qualified for the playoffs.

Plano West is in a similar situation. West has 4k+ students and will never go into DI since Plano, East, and Allen all have larger enrollments.

[PermianFan]

...though the underlying issue with the UIL is whether teams can compete fairly in the playoffs with these bigger schools...

I truly believe that was never a real issue for the UIL. It was only an excuse to have more teams in postseason football games (and therefore more money). You'll notice that they implemented it as soon as they could in the lower classifications, where the difference in student populations was considerably smaller. It was a fraud, but they got what they wanted.

The funny thing is the UIL is autonomous. They can do whatever they wish. I suppose it was just better PR to tell the masses that they were doing it for "fairness".

[Bill4par]

Plano West is in a similar situation. West has 4k+ students and will never go into DI since Plano, East, and Allen all have larger enrollments

In this District, Plano East is the key. If they have a good season, Allen always will go DII. It would be interesting to see PESH #'s the last 4 yrs to see if their population is still growing or declining?

[NHB06]

Plano West is in a similar situation. West has 4k+ students and will never go into DI since Plano, East, and Allen all have larger enrollments

In this District, Plano East is the key. If they have a good season, Allen always will go DII. It would be interesting to see PESH #'s the last 4 yrs to see if their population is still growing or declining?



The numbers at Plano East have increased over the last 4 years because of the growth in Murphy, NE Richardson, and Parker- which all feed to East.

[DrEdward]

I truly believe that was never a real issue for the UIL. It was only an excuse to have more teams in postseason football games (and therefore more money). You'll notice that they implemented it as soon as they could in the lower classifications, where the difference in student populations was considerably smaller. It was a fraud, but they got what they wanted.

The funny thing is the UIL is autonomous. They can do whatever they wish. I suppose it was just better PR to tell the masses that they were doing it for "fairness".

While I would agree with the argument that larger student populations allows a school a greater choice among potential players and hence a great chance of success, the relationship is hardly a linear one. If this were no the case, then there is no real justification for separation among any of the As. So, the UIL is justified in making some attempt at classification according to size. However, having done that, 1A - 5A, the creation of this D1/D2 is as you suggest, simply a way to have more teams in the playoffs, which just happens to make lots more money for the UIL.

By the way, isn't the UIL created and hosted by the University of Texas?

[PermianFan]

While I would agree with the argument that larger student populations allows a school a greater choice among potential players and hence a great chance of success, the relationship is hardly a linear one. If this were no the case, then there is no real justification for separation among any of the As. So, the UIL is justified in making some attempt at classification according to size. However, having done that, 1A - 5A, the creation of this D1/D2 is as you suggest, simply a way to have more teams in the playoffs, which just happens to make lots more money for the UIL.

By the way, isn't the UIL created and hosted by the University of Texas?

Back in the early 90's there was a commission empowered to investigate or study the way the UIL operated. They held public hearings around the state of Texas, including here in Odessa at UTPB. I still have a copy of their final report around here somewhere, but it would take a lot of unpacking to find it. As best I can recall, the UIL got it's funding from the Permanent University Fund, which had (and has) a value in the billions. When the commission tried to find out who the UIL reported to, who had the responsibility for overseeing them, they were told in effect that the few millions the UIL received were so insignificant in a fund worth billions that it wasn't worth the effort to regulate it. Apparently there was no official body the UIL reported to. While the UIL probably keeps track of the money, there doesn't appear to be anyone they have to clear any of their decisions through. That is why I said they are autonomous.

It's been almost 15 years, and I am paraphrasing a report I haven't looked at in years, so maybe things have changed. But I doubt it.

[DrEdward]

Back in the early 90's there was a commission empowered to investigate or study the way the UIL operated. They held public hearings around the state of Texas, including here in Odessa at UTPB. I still have a copy of their final report around here somewhere, but it would take a lot of unpacking to find it. As best I can recall, the UIL got it's funding from the Permanent University Fund, which had (and has) a value in the billions. When the commission tried to find out who the UIL reported to, who had the responsibility for overseeing them, they were told in effect that the few millions the UIL received were so insignificant in a fund worth billions that it wasn't worth the effort to regulate it. Apparently there was no official body the UIL reported to. While the UIL probably keeps track of the money, there doesn't appear to be anyone they have to clear any of their decisions through. That is why I said they are autonomous.

It's been almost 15 years, and I am paraphrasing a report I haven't looked at in years, so maybe things have changed. But I doubt it.

Don't make the effort to unpack and search. I answered my own question. The UIL was indeed created by the University of Texas at Austin. As a matter of fact, today, the League operates as part of the University of Texas, under the auspices of the Vice President for Diversity & Community Engagement (http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/). So it would seem that we have UT to ultimately blame for this D1/D2 thing. :rolleyes:

[85Roughneck]

I truly believe that was never a real issue for the UIL. It was only an excuse to have more teams in postseason football games (and therefore more money). You'll notice that they implemented it as soon as they could in the lower classifications, where the difference in student populations was considerably smaller. It was a fraud, but they got what they wanted.

The funny thing is the UIL is autonomous. They can do whatever they wish. I suppose it was just better PR to tell the masses that they were doing it for "fairness".

I agree and as always ... FOLLOW THE MONEY :mad:

[85Roughneck]

Don't make the effort to unpack and search. I answered my own question. The UIL was indeed created by the University of Texas at Austin. As a matter of fact, today, the League operates as part of the University of Texas, under the auspices of the Vice President for Diversity & Community Engagement (http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/). So it would seem that we have UT to ultimately blame for this D1/D2 thing. :rolleyes:

No joke Doc? The UIL is run by UT? Holy crap! All this time I thought the UIL was a state government organization. Are you telling me that my taxes go to school districts and scholastic sports that are run by a private university? :eek:

[CCHS77]

No joke Doc? The UIL is run by UT? Holy crap! All this time I thought the UIL was a state government organization. Are you telling me that my taxes go to school districts and scholastic sports that are run by a private university? :eek:

You think UT is a private university?

[85Roughneck]

You think UT is a private university?

straigten me out on that thought, please. Is UT governed by our state government or do they have a board of regents (or something like that) that calls the shots?

[CCHS77]

straigten me out on that thought, please. Is UT governed by our state government or do they have a board of regents (or something like that) that calls the shots?

Is Deer Park HS governed by our state government or do they have a school board (or something like that) that calls the shots?

[DrEdward]

straigten me out on that thought, please. Is UT governed by our state government or do they have a board of regents (or something like that) that calls the shots?

UT is a public university, funded in large part by the taxpayers of the State of Texas -> us. The University of Texas Syatem is goverened by a Board of Regents appointed by the Govenor of the State. But this makes some of the practices of the UIL a bit more questionable when one figures out that the UIL employees are essentially state employees.

[Redhoss]

Personally, I've never understood the need for a Div I and II. When a team like Allen with 4k+ students can easily go Div I or II in any given year, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Division II?

It does to me. :notworthy

[Redhoss]

UT is a public university, funded in large part by the taxpayers of the State of Texas -> us. The University of Texas Syatem is goverened by a Board of Regents appointed by the Govenor of the State. But this makes some of the practices of the UIL a bit more questionable when one figures out that the UIL employees are essentially state employees.

I'm getting a headache now. No end in sight and even though I'm a Horn fan, I do not condone this one iota. :mad:

[DrEdward]

I'm getting a headache now. No end in sight and even though I'm a Horn fan, I do not condone this one iota. :mad:

I didn't intend this to be a shot at the Horns, I was more curious as to the organization of the UIL. I'm with you on this and I have a number of areas of disagreement with the UIL. (Of course, it evidently doesn't overly concern them any more than my disagreements with the new administration in DC or the Congress bother them. :rolleyes: )

[ALLENFANDINGO5]

The UIL creates 2 divisions in order to increase the odds of similar school sizes to compete in the playoffs. Could it be said they think larger schools are better than smaller schools. It is safe to say most of us believe that enrollment size does not determine skill level. IMO the UIL covered their butts by choosing to split in the playoffs. Teams out west wont have to travel as much during regular season, like they would with a new classification. All the while, the underlying reason is to have more teams equates to more money. If I were smarter and had more time I would like to find out what the difference in money for them would be 1 division vs. 2. But without any research it stands to reason that the amount is doubled.:D

[SLC]

The UIL creates 2 divisions in order to increase the odds of similar school sizes to compete in the playoffs. Could it be said they think larger schools are better than smaller schools. It is safe to say most of us believe that enrollment size does not determine skill level. IMO the UIL covered their butts by choosing to split in the playoffs. Teams out west wont have to travel as much during regular season, like they would with a new classification. All the while, the underlying reason is to have more teams equates to more money. If I were smarter and had more time I would like to find out what the difference in money for them would be 1 division vs. 2. But without any research it stands to reason that the amount is doubled.:D


Again it must be said that whatever the UIL thought at the time they changed to taking 4 teams and then splitting them at playoff time, isnt likely needed any longer...that belief is obviously backed up by the results over the years of the record of smaller schools vs bigger schools.


Also, on the money issue...the UIL is indeed making more off there being more teams, thus more games...I think they have for awile now gotten 15% of gate reciepts from all games played.

[85Roughneck]

Is Deer Park HS governed by our state government or do they have a school board (or something like that) that calls the shots?

Are you just being sarcastic or are you just without knowledge of the topic? :confused: ... anyway, whatever ...

Of course, Deer Park schools have board members just like every other school district in the state of Texas and those board members call the shots until they are ousted by election. My question was about UT, one of many universities in Texas. I'm still not sure how one would know which universities or colleges are public or private. I'm guessing if they are public then they receive funding from the state which comes from taxpayers, and if they are private then they receive they're funding from the private sector like corporations, hospitals, or churches. I don't think you can tell if they are public or private by the name of the school so that's why I asked.

Now that DrEdwards has been kind enough to answer my question I can understand the situation better. (Thanks Doc :notworthy)

Since I now know UT is state funded I can deduce that they are controlled by the state so then I can further deduce that the UIL is under some amount of state control and not run by the private sector. Since the UIL is run by the state for the most part then citizens like us have a voice in the matter.

sooooooooooo ...

What can we do as citizens to change the current D2 / D2 system to something that is more acceptable to us all?

[SLC]

Are you just being sarcastic or are you just without knowledge of the topic? :confused: ... anyway, whatever ...

Of course, Deer Park schools have board members just like every other school district in the state of Texas and those board members call the shots until they are ousted by election. My question was about UT, one of many universities in Texas. I'm still not sure how one would know which universities or colleges are public or private. I'm guessing if they are public then they receive funding from the state which comes from taxpayers, and if they are private then they receive they're funding from the private sector like corporations, hospitals, or churches. I don't think you can tell if they are public or private by the name of the school so that's why I asked.

Now that DrEdwards has been kind enough to answer my question I can understand the situation better. (Thanks Doc :notworthy)

Since I now know UT is state funded I can deduce that they are controlled by the state so then I can further deduce that the UIL is under some amount of state control and not run by the private sector. Since the UIL is run by the state for the most part then citizens like us have a voice in the matter.

sooooooooooo ...

What can we do as citizens to change the current D2 / D2 system to something that is more acceptable to us all?

The current system could only be changed if approved by the UIL Legislative Council, which in this case is run by 20 elected officials (school superintendents) and 8 appointed officials (again usually school superintendents).

The proposed change would have to be brought before them and they would then consider it, refine it, and prepare it for full council action. All schools would then be notified of proposed change. They would then hold a public hearing on the proposal. Then following the public hearing the council/commitee would then make a recomendation on the proposal. It would then be placed on a ballot for vote and either approve or reject it.

It would seem the best option would be for each individual school be contacted and the battle fought through them, as they represent their constituents (the parents, citizens, tax payers) and the school is represented by the regional superintendent. Also the public hearing would be further place for voices to be heard, but that hearing would only take place if the matter is before the council to begin with.

The matter itself can be brought forth to the council by anyone.

[PermianFan]

Here in Ector County the school superintendent is appointed by the school board. Are they elected elsewhere?

[SLC]

Here in Ector County the school superintendent is appointed by the school board. Are they elected elsewhere?



No. In most cases, that I am aware of anyway, the school district superintendent is appointed by the school board. The cases we are speaking of deals with the UIL (governing athority over Interscholastic activities competition in Texas) and the oversight comittees and legislature.