Another Katy - Carroll Thread - Pick the Weakest Finals Team This Decade

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Katy 2000 - (Katy 35 - Tyler John Tyler 20)
Carroll 2002 - (Southlake Carroll 45 - Smithson Valley 14)
Katy 2003 - (Katy 16 - Southlake Carroll 15)
Carroll 2003 - (Katy 16 - Southlake Carroll 15)
Carroll 2004 - (Southlake Carroll 27 - Smithson Valley 24)
Carroll 2005 - (Southlake Carroll 34 - Katy 20)
Katy 2005 - (Southlake Carroll 34 - Katy 20)
Carroll 2006 - (Southlake Carroll 43 - A. Westlake 29)
Katy 2007 - (Katy 28 - Pflugerville 7)
Katy 2008 - (Katy 17 - Wylie 3)

Hard to pick the weakest one. I think the 05' Tiger team was one of Katy's best teams ever. The just happened to run into unquestionably the best football team Carroll ever put on the field IMO.

One could argue the 03' Carroll team was the weakest, but IMO it was one of the greatest finals games ever. Northshore that year was superior IMO. One could also argue that the 08' Tiger team was the weakest, but what they did to Wylie was incredible. Let the debate begin. Poll coming shortly.

[Tigerjag]

What?

[Bass]

How about comparing the best of each as well?

Katy 2007 vs. Carroll 2005

Katy 2000 vs. Carroll 2006

Katy 2005 vs. Carroll 2002

Katy 2003 vs. Carroll 2003

Katy 2008 vs. Carroll 2004

[ktCarl]

You're fired from starting threads.

[katyfan52]

You're fired from starting threads.
:D:laugh:D

[dragonpants]

How about comparing the best of each as well?

Katy 2007 vs. Carroll 2005

Katy 2000 vs. Carroll 2006

Katy 2005 vs. Carroll 2002

Katy 2003 vs. Carroll 2003

Katy 2008 vs. Carroll 2004

Carroll '05 was by far the best team of these, while the 2002 Carroll team was the most special.

[DrEdward]

Since he asks for the weakest "team" in the finals, not the pair, the scores would indicate that it was either Pflugerville or Wylie. :D Certainly Katy and Carroll would seem to be off the hook in this discussion.

[KatyTigerDad0407]

Since he asks for the weakest "team" in the finals, not the pair, the scores would indicate that it was either Pflugerville or Wylie. :D Certainly Katy and Carroll would seem to be off the hook in this discussion.Maybe I should rephrase it as 'Least Best'. I know you are kidding. I want the poll to be between Katy and Carroll, not their opponents.

[KatyTigerDad0407]

You're fired from starting threads.How long is my sentence? I'll go a few weeks or longer, but not indefinitely.:D

[SLC]

I cant speak for Katy people, but from the standpoint of Carroll teams this decade it would stand to reason that our 2003 team was the weakest (if you want to call it that) and by far the strongest..or best was 2005. And in terms of Katy/Carroll teams as a whole, that 2005 Carroll team is the best in this decade of any team and possibly ever.

[Mong Hu]

If you go strictly based on record this years Katy team would have to get the vote for weakest finals team out of that group. I think simple record is the easiest way to go when answering that question. The most recent Katy team however is difficult due to the fact that they seemed to take on a different life as the season wore on. Holding any team to 3 points in the State finals is an amazing achievement and certainly speaks volumes of the teams defense. The last time that a team was held to that kind of point total was in 98 when Midland Lee blanked SA MacArthur. The year before Longview was held to only 3 by Katy. It just doesn't seem to happen that often.

[crunked9]

I cant speak for Katy people, but from the standpoint of Carroll teams this decade it would stand to reason that our 2003 team was the weakest (if you want to call it that) and by far the strongest..or best was 2005. And in terms of Katy/Carroll teams as a whole, that 2005 Carroll team is the best in this decade of any team and possibly ever.

'03 team was the "weakest" of SLC's teams.

'02,'05,'06,'04 well just pick your favorite!

[15Adragon]

Since he asks for the weakest "team" in the finals, not the pair, the scores would indicate that it was either Pflugerville or Wylie. :D Certainly Katy and Carroll would seem to be off the hook in this discussion.

I would put the '02 Smithson Valley team in the mix as well.

[SLC93]

I would put the '02 Smithson Valley team in the mix as well.


Agreed. Or were the 02 Dragons that good?

[15Adragon]

Agreed. Or were the 02 Dragons that good?

You could argue both positions. That is what is a little confusing about this thread.

[SLC]

'03 team was the "weakest" of SLC's teams.

'02,'05,'06,'04 well just pick your favorite!


Well you certainly could pick your favorite, but for me there isnt just one.. As far as best though, there isnt any doubt in my mind that the '05 team is one of the best in this states storied history. And I personally put them first.

[CyFallsMom]

Is there any way to just start another board on here for just Katy and SLC threads:rolleyes:.

Oh well, it is the offseason - guess boredom has completely set in at this point....it's a LONG way to August:D

[SLC93]

Katy 2000 - (Katy 35 - Tyler John Tyler 20)
Carroll 2002 - (Southlake Carroll 45 - Smithson Valley 14)
Katy 2003 - (Katy 16 - Southlake Carroll 15)
Carroll 2003 - (Katy 16 - Southlake Carroll 15)
Carroll 2004 - (Southlake Carroll 27 - Smithson Valley 24)
Carroll 2005 - (Southlake Carroll 34 - Katy 20)
Katy 2005 - (Southlake Carroll 34 - Katy 20)
Carroll 2006 - (Southlake Carroll 43 - A. Westlake 29)
Katy 2007 - (Katy 28 - Pflugerville 7)
Katy 2008 - (Katy 17 - Wylie 3)

Hard to pick the weakest one. I think the 05' Tiger team was one of Katy's best teams ever. The just happened to run into unquestionably the best football team Carroll ever put on the field IMO.

One could argue the 03' Carroll team was the weakest, but IMO it was one of the greatest finals games ever. Northshore that year was superior IMO. One could also argue that the 08' Tiger team was the weakest, but what they did to Wylie was incredible. Let the debate begin. Poll coming shortly.





I think that's watering down the meaning of incredible. A 17-3 final against a team making it's first real run in ages does not strike me as incredible. It seems to be more consistent with the way 08 Katy won games, imo.

[SLC93]

I remember being so upset at that 03 squad. We had never lost a title game on the gridiron until that one. As time goes by I've decided they may be the most undervalued team to have ever played for Carroll. 15-1 is nothing to sneeze at, especially when it's attached to a one point loss to a program like Katy. For the sake of this convoluted arguement, I would say they must be the weakest but it's all relative. How many of those kids were right back there in 04 hiosting that trophy?

[ftballin11]

I remember being so upset at that 03 squad. We had never lost a title game on the gridiron until that one. As time goes by I've decided they may be the most undervalued team to have ever played for Carroll. 15-1 is nothing to sneeze at, especially when it's attached to a one point loss to a program like Katy. For the sake of this convoluted arguement, I would say they must be the weakest but it's all relative. How many of those kids were right back there in 04 hiosting that trophy?

If i remember correctly The first time that the 03' team did not go into half time with a lead was the state game. I think they were better than Carroll Faithful give them credit for. They just lost to a Katy team that peaked at the right time.

[15Adragon]

If i remember correctly The first time that the 03' team did not go into half time with a lead was the state game. I think they were better than Carroll Faithful give them credit for. They just lost to a Katy team that peaked at the right time.

I agree. My memory is that this was a great football team! I am really struggling to assign the "Weakest" label to any of the teams in this list (especially Katy or SL). These were all very accomplished teams.

Katy - don't read this next sentence. SL should have won that game in '03. ;)

[SLC93]

If i remember correctly The first time that the 03' team did not go into half time with a lead was the state game. I think they were better than Carroll Faithful give them credit for. They just lost to a Katy team that peaked at the right time.

That team was full of young talent that had played so far above expectations I think the let down was felt deeper than usual. They more than did their part in protecting the tradition. Katy played their best game of the year at the right time and Carroll failed to capitalize on some opportunities. Like it or not, that game is probably the best title game 5A has fielded. At the very least it's in the top 3.

[KT2000]

That team was full of young talent that had played so far above expectations I think the let down was felt deeper than usual. They more than did their part in protecting the tradition. Katy played their best game of the year at the right time and Carroll failed to capitalize on some opportunities. Like it or not, that game is probably the best title game 5A has fielded. At the very least it's in the top 3.

1. 02 Judson-Midland
2. 03 Katy-Carroll
3. 04 Carroll-SV
4. 01 Lufkin-Westlake

[KT2000]

That team was full of young talent that had played so far above expectations I think the let down was felt deeper than usual.

I certainly didn't think Carroll would repeat the previous season's feat. I forget where we started the Dragons that year in the rankings. It turns out that 4A team wasn't a one hit wonder. :)

[dragonsdaddy]

I certainly didn't think Carroll would repeat the previous season's feat. I forget where we started the Dragons that year in the rankings. It turns out that 4A team wasn't a one hit wonder. :)i
i guess going 5 for 5 with 4 hrs and a triple to start a career in 5a isn't too shabby, now that you mention it.

[SLC93]

1. 02 Judson-Midland
2. 03 Katy-Carroll
3. 04 Carroll-SV
4. 01 Lufkin-Westlake

I'm biased but that's close to what would have. I'd put the 2 Carroll contests 1/2, though.

[SLC93]

I certainly didn't think Carroll would repeat the previous season's feat. I forget where we started the Dragons that year in the rankings. It turns out that 4A team wasn't a one hit wonder. :)

The ability to step up. I've always thought that was the most overlooked aspect of the 03 squad. They were the first kids in the 5A era to have to meet a standard. Those kids lost a ton from the previous season's championship squad that nobody saw coming. Did they ever come out an answer the bell, though. Taking a 16 game win streak, which we've had a few of, to a 31 game streak is remarkable under the best of circumstances. With all the talent that had to be replaced for that to occur in 03, I think it transcended past remarkable into the stuff of legends.

[crunked9]

The ability to step up. I've always thought that was the most overlooked aspect of the 03 squad. They were the first kids in the 5A era to have to meet a standard. Those kids lost a ton from the previous season's championship squad that nobody saw coming. Did they ever come out an asert bell, though. Taking a 16 game win streak, which we've had a few of, to a 31 game streak is remarkable under the best of circumstances. With all the talent that had to be replaced for that to occur in 03, I think it transcended past remarkable into the stuff of legends.

I agree, what the '03 team was amazing! They lost a QB, 3 WR's, 2 OL, the D line, 2 LB's and all the DB's

This is a very good example of what 6 extra games the year before can do for the younger guys!

[farmerfan]

That team was full of young talent that had played so far above expectations I think the let down was felt deeper than usual. They more than did their part in protecting the tradition. Katy played their best game of the year at the right time and Carroll failed to capitalize on some opportunities. Like it or not, that game is probably the best title game 5A has fielded. At the very least it's in the top 3.

Best title game I have ever seen was the 93 Lewisville-Aldine Mac game.
Those two teams went back and forth all day. Aldine Mac scored with 3:19 left and takes a 37-36 lead. Lewisville down with 1 TO starts its drive at their own 29. This is a option based run first punt second team. They convert a huge 4th down on the drive as well as convert a huge 2nd and long by virtue of the pass to set them up with a first an goal from the 9. Lewisville scores with 19 secs left to take a 43-37 lead. Mac takes the kickoff and had it not been for the angle that Zeb Cornist had would ahve returned it for the win. Cornist tackles Mister Johnson at the Lewisville 35 and the Farmers sack Odell James on the final play of the game for the win.

Judson-Duncanville in 98 would also rank up in the top title games ever played.
The 03 and 04 title games with Carroll would certainly rank up there but IMO and it truly is coming from a unbiased viewpoint, no title game could match the fireworks and total excitement of what the 93 5A Division 2 title game had.

[farmerfan]

The ability to step up. I've always thought that was the most overlooked aspect of the 03 squad. They were the first kids in the 5A era to have to meet a standard. Those kids lost a ton from the previous season's championship squad that nobody saw coming. Did they ever come out an asert bell, though. Taking a 16 game win streak, which we've had a few of, to a 31 game streak is remarkable under the best of circumstances. With all the talent that had to be replaced for that to occur in 03, I think it transcended past remarkable into the stuff of legends.

The 03 team is special to me because they started a 4 year streak that became my favorite week of the Texas state playoffs. The annual *** beating of North Plano. My disdain for North Plano probably began that night. :notworthy

[farmerfan]

SLC and I have spoke about this in regards to Carroll before and yes the 03 team based on the last game would be regarded as the "worst" of the bunch. However, there are many programs across the state that would love to say the best team in their history did what that Carroll team did. I still remember Dave Campbell picking The Colony to win the district that year over Carroll. Truly hilarious.

As far as the best I saw, the 05 Carroll team would definitely be the best. That team was just loaded and overcame the biggest obsticle I thought they would be faced with which was finding something to replace what I liked to call the Luna Factor. Factor in the slate of teams the 05 team had to go through on their incredible playoff run then they will forever be regarded as one of the best teams to ever play football in this state.
I really liked the 2000 Katy team with I believe Jared Kaspar and Jamal(sp) Branch. That teams was awesome on all sides of the ball.

[SLC]

If i remember correctly The first time that the 03' team did not go into half time with a lead was the state game. I think they were better than Carroll Faithful give them credit for. They just lost to a Katy team that peaked at the right time.


Uhhhhhh...Better than Carroll faithful give them credit for???????....Ha, obviously you dont know how we view that team...If we have 7 titles, they are #8 in terms of teams..in our storied history...and no Carroll people say any different.

[SLC]

Best title game I have ever seen was the 93 Lewisville-Aldine Mac game.
Those two teams went back and forth all day. Aldine Mac scored with 3:19 left and takes a 37-36 lead. Lewisville down with 1 TO starts its drive at their own 29. This is a option based run first punt second team. They convert a huge 4th down on the drive as well as convert a huge 2nd and long by virtue of the pass to set them up with a first an goal from the 9. Lewisville scores with 19 secs left to take a 43-37 lead. Mac takes the kickoff and had it not been for the angle that Zeb Cornist had would ahve returned it for the win. Cornist tackles Mister Johnson at the Lewisville 35 and the Farmers sack Odell James on the final play of the game for the win.

Judson-Duncanville in 98 would also rank up in the top title games ever played.
The 03 and 04 title games with Carroll would certainly rank up there but IMO and it truly is coming from a unbiased viewpoint, no title game could match the fireworks and total excitement of what the 93 5A Division 2 title game had.



Yea, as far as title games go, the best I witnessed would go as follows...Few people on this bord had the opportunities that you and I had with watching several final games and I am able to remove my bias for my team and state what I really think in terms of best finals.

1. Lewisville/Aldine MacArthur '93
2. Marshall/Judson '90
3. Judson/Permian '95
4. Katy/Carroll '03
5. Judson/D' Ville 98



Thats my top 5...I could go further to create a top 10...But those five games had all the sparks you would want from a final game...all five were awesome in there own way..with, for me, obviously '03 being the most heart breaking...and for obvious reasons.

[DrEdward]

SLC and I have spoke about this in regards to Carroll before and yes the 03 team based on the last game would be regarded as the "worst" of the bunch. However, there are many programs across the state that would love to say the best team in their history did what that Carroll team did. I still remember Dave Campbell picking The Colony to win the district that year over Carroll. Truly hilarious.

As far as the best I saw, the 05 Carroll team would definitely be the best. That team was just loaded and overcame the biggest obsticle I thought they would be faced with which was finding something to replace what I liked to call the Luna Factor. Factor in the slate of teams the 05 team had to go through on their incredible playoff run then they will forever be regarded as one of the best teams to ever play football in this state.
I really liked the 2000 Katy team with I believe Jared Kaspar and Jamal(sp) Branch. That teams was awesome on all sides of the ball.

See above. ^

[ftballin11]

I agree. My memory is that this was a great football team! I am really struggling to assign the "Weakest" label to any of the teams in this list (especially Katy or SL). These were all very accomplished teams.

Katy - don't read this next sentence. SL should have won that game in '03. ;)

No way Carroll should have won that game. Go back and look at the Box scores, Katy dominated that game. Katy missed out on alot of opportunities. SLC manged one drive and one big play the whole game. Other than that Katy's Defense completely shut them down.

[Pool Man]

Is there any way to just start another board on here for just Katy and SLC threads:rolleyes:.

Oh well, it is the offseason - guess boredom has completely set in at this point....it's a LONG way to August:D


Hah! That's funny. Maybe we should just start CHAMPIONS ONLY board. It could be like a club where all us fans could go and reflect, congratulate each other and even run our mouths without having to worry about getting called on the carpet for it. A state ring gets you in the door, but there is a two drink minimum.

[drgnbkr]

No way Carroll should have won that game. Go back and look at the Box scores, Katy dominated that game. Katy missed out on alot of opportunities. SLC manged one drive and one big play the whole game. Other than that Katy's Defense completely shut them down.

Don't rekindle that crap...Katy won..enjoy it. You are delusional.

[15Adragon]

No way Carroll should have won that game. Go back and look at the Box scores, Katy dominated that game. Katy missed out on alot of opportunities. SLC manged one drive and one big play the whole game. Other than that Katy's Defense completely shut them down.

I know what I saw. I'll leave it at that. :p

[KT2000]

No way Carroll should have won that game. Go back and look at the Box scores, Katy dominated that game. Katy missed out on alot of opportunities. SLC manged one drive and one big play the whole game. Other than that Katy's Defense completely shut them down.

Neither team dominated. The momentum shifted back and forth over the four quarters. Carroll started on the front foot, and then Katy got into the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Carroll made a nice adjustment in the 4th quarter by running Daniel and Luna. They should have done more of that to offset the pressure Katy was bringing.

The best thing Katy did in the game was take care of the football. Katy didn't make the costly mistake, and that's ultimately why they were able to win the game. The game came down to execution. Katy executed when they had to and Carroll did not. Both teams had their chances.

[slcdragonfan]

I agree. My memory is that this was a great football team! I am really struggling to assign the "Weakest" label to any of the teams in this list (especially Katy or SL). These were all very accomplished teams.

Katy - don't read this next sentence. SL should have won that game in '03. ;)

Thus why I haven't voted...

[KT2000]

Thus why I haven't voted...

I think the premise of the thread, while probably innocent in intent, is unfair. Both programs are extraordinarily lucky to have such a discussion. There's no such thing as a weak champion.

[slcdragonfan]

I think the premise of the thread, while probably innocent in intent, is unfair. Both programs are extraordinarily lucky to have such a discussion. There's no such thing as a weak champion.

It seems to be about disappointment in the final result. I love watching both these teams. In the end, I can't say who was the weakest. Each overcame unique obstacles. In some ways, the team that might seem the weakest due to record, etc. may be the strongest because of their ability to continue through challenge. In that respect, Katy 2008 deserves special attention because they continued to believe and execute when many had them written off.

And yes, very glad that we can be part of a discussion like this.

[JagFan]

From someone that is still looking to get past the first round in the playoffs for the first time I cannot say that Katy or SLC ever has had a week team. Their programs are solid year in and year out. Granted some years are better than others but I can not say they have ever had a weak team.

[SLC]

Thus why I haven't voted...

Same here. I have them as my 8th best team in Carrroll history, but I cant truthfully call the "weak"...I just cant bring myself to do it.

[SLC]

From someone that is still looking to get past the first round in the playoffs for the first time I cannot say that Katy or SLC ever has had a week team. Their programs are solid year in and year out. Granted some years are better than others but I can not say they have ever had a weak team.



For both programs it would have been several years ago when that could have been said.

[JagFan]

For both programs it would have been several years ago when that could have been said.

True. Both are very blessed and storied programs. They do not field weak teams. I can only hope that we have a strong team for one year and build on that. Both schools should be thankful and I think you are.

[SLC93]

Best title game I have ever seen was the 93 Lewisville-Aldine Mac game.
Those two teams went back and forth all day. Aldine Mac scored with 3:19 left and takes a 37-36 lead. Lewisville down with 1 TO starts its drive at their own 29. This is a option based run first punt second team. They convert a huge 4th down on the drive as well as convert a huge 2nd and long by virtue of the pass to set them up with a first an goal from the 9. Lewisville scores with 19 secs left to take a 43-37 lead. Mac takes the kickoff and had it not been for the angle that Zeb Cornist had would ahve returned it for the win. Cornist tackles Mister Johnson at the Lewisville 35 and the Farmers sack Odell James on the final play of the game for the win.

Judson-Duncanville in 98 would also rank up in the top title games ever played.
The 03 and 04 title games with Carroll would certainly rank up there but IMO and it truly is coming from a unbiased viewpoint, no title game could match the fireworks and total excitement of what the 93 5A Division 2 title game had.

That Farmer game was insane and Odell was a beast! I can't lie, I thought they had y'all.

[SLC93]

Uhhhhhh...Better than Carroll faithful give them credit for???????....Ha, obviously you dont know how we view that team...If we have 7 titles, they are #8 in terms of teams..in our storied history...and no Carroll people say any different.

I put 'em at a respectful 9. 8 would be the only other undefeated team in school history, the 1991 Carroll Dragons. That junior laden team finished 14-0-1 and lost on penetrations in the semi's. 03 went a round deeper but we were never outscored. 1 point makes all the difference in the world. If we had 1 more point in 91 and we had given up 1 less point in 03, Carroll would be sitting on 9 titles right now.:mad::D

[SLC93]

Yea, as far as title games go, the best I witnessed would go as follows...Few people on this bord had the opportunities that you and I had with watching several final games and I am able to remove my bias for my team and state what I really think in terms of best finals.

1. Lewisville/Aldine MacArthur '93
2. Marshall/Judson '90
3. Judson/Permian '95
4. Katy/Carroll '03
5. Judson/D' Ville 98



Thats my top 5...I could go further to create a top 10...But those five games had all the sparks you would want from a final game...all five were awesome in there own way..with, for me, obviously '03 being the most heart breaking...and for obvious reasons.

Excellent list but the 04 game has to be on it. A kick sailing through the uprights as time expires to win the title is soooooo storybook it demands inclusion, imo.

[SLC93]

Thus why I haven't voted...

I haven't, and won't, either.

[SLC93]

Same here. I have them as my 8th best team in Carrroll history, but I cant truthfully call the "weak"...I just cant bring myself to do it.

9th:D

[SLC]

Excellent list but the 04 game has to be on it. A kick sailing through the uprights as time expires to win the title is soooooo storybook it demands inclusion, imo.


Absolutely, they would be my number 6 game...I tried to be unbiased when remembering the games I attended, though I could have easily placed that '04 game in my top 5, no doubt about it. It's crazy that Judson has been involved in so many close hard fought great games..You could throw in the '07 Judson/Trinity game as well....I guess one thing to note is Judson is a very tough out when beating them.

[SLC]

9th:D


The '91 team was very good, I just feel that going 15-1 and playing in the title game and coming up short by 1 point makes them the 8th best ever..Keeping in mind its the 8th season in which Carroll has won at least 15 games.

[15Adragon]

The '91 team was very good, I just feel that going 15-1 and playing in the title game and coming up short by 1 point makes them the 8th best ever..Keeping in mind its the 8th season in which Carroll has won at least 15 games.

We lost a tie game!! Doc, that sentence doesn't even make sense.

Did we lose on possessions crossing the 20 or did it go to first downs? I can't remember... Too much talk about BBQ has me distracted.

[SLC93]

We lost a tie game!! Doc, that sentence doesn't even make sense.

Did we lose on possessions crossing the 20 or did it go to first downs? I can't remember... Too much talk about BBQ has me distracted.

We lost on penetrations, by one. That Burnet team was so one sided it was a disgrace. Their defense was lights out but that offense was horrid. They literally played to tie during that playoff run and advanced 3 times as a result of tie breakers.

[SLC93]

The '91 team was very good, I just feel that going 15-1 and playing in the title game and coming up short by 1 point makes them the 8th best ever..Keeping in mind its the 8th season in which Carroll has won at least 15 games.

91 = undefeated
03 = defeated

91 > 03 :D

[SLC]

We lost a tie game!! Doc, that sentence doesn't even make sense.

Did we lose on possessions crossing the 20 or did it go to first downs? I can't remember... Too much talk about BBQ has me distracted.


They lost on penetrations..and several teams reflect those as losses..Not us..its shown as a 14-0-1 record.

[ftballin11]

Neither team dominated. The momentum shifted back and forth over the four quarters. Carroll started on the front foot, and then Katy got into the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Carroll made a nice adjustment in the 4th quarter by running Daniel and Luna. They should have done more of that to offset the pressure Katy was bringing.

The best thing Katy did in the game was take care of the football. Katy didn't make the costly mistake, and that's ultimately why they were able to win the game. The game came down to execution. Katy executed when they had to and Carroll did not. Both teams had their chances.

I agree on that drive Daniel made a great scramble on a broken play, on a 3 and 20. He allowed that second scoring drive to happen. I will say Daniel is the second best HS QB I have seen in person.

But if you look at the amount of times Katy drove the entire field only to come up empty handed was amazing. The first half Katy did not execute. If they would have finished off the drives they had early. They could have opened up a comfortable lead. I think it was the coaches that failed to execute in the first half.

But your right about not turning the ball over. I dont think that team turned it over the entire playoffs.

[SLC]

We lost on penetrations, by one. That Burnet team was so one sided it was a disgrace. Their defense was lights out but that offense was horrid. They literally played to tie during that playoff run and advanced 3 times as a result of tie breakers.

Beat me to it. Yea, they were pitiful on offense..Carroll would have won the title if they would have gotten past Burnet, though I believe we lost that by 2points not 1..I could be wrong but I thout it was 3-1.

What makes it worse is they lost the final 7-0..Carroll would have played much better with Groesbeck, though they had a great defense as well. I feel like we would have beat them regardless.

[SLC]

91 = undefeated
03 = defeated

91 > 03 :D


I hear ya..and I really have no problem with either being regarded as 8th or 9th best..Its hard to argue with an undefeated team at all...other than the defeated one played in the title game. I could go either way with it. Again, personally I dont have heartburn with '91 being mentioned over '03.

[SLC93]

Beat me to it. Yea, they were pitiful on offense..Carroll would have won the title if they would have gotten past Burnet, though I believe we lost that by 2points not 1..I could be wrong but I thout it was 3-1.

What makes it worse is they lost the final 7-0..Carroll would have played much better with Groesbeck, though they had a great defense as well. I feel like we would have beat them regardless.

Might have be 3-1. I lived a little too much life since that night. :D

[SLC93]

I hear ya..and I really have no problem with either being regarded as 8th or 9th best..Its hard to argue with an undefeated team at all...other than the defeated one played in the title game. I could go either way with it. Again, personally I dont have heartburn with '91 being mentioned over '03.

I'm only being a homer's homer cuz 91 was my guys. I love the 03 team and they get treated like the red headed step child, sometimes, which is entirely unfair.

[SLC93]

Other than that Katy's Defense completely shut them down.


But if you look at the amount of times Katy drove the entire field only to come up empty handed was amazing.

That would be a strong indicator of superior, red zone defense by Carroll. You cannot claim one team shut the other down because of their defense and then illustrate how the other team did the same to you but blame it on offensive execution. That game was a war, period.

[dragonpants]

[QUOTE=ftballin11;1107909]I agree on that drive Daniel made a great scramble on a broken play, on a 3 and 20. He allowed that second scoring drive to happen. I will say Daniel is the second best HS QB I have seen in person.

But if you look at the amount of times Katy drove the entire field only to come up empty handed was amazing. The first half Katy did not execute. If they would have finished off the drives they had early. They could have opened up a comfortable lead. I think it was the coaches that failed to execute in the first half.

But your right about not turning the ball over. I dont think that team turned it over the entire playoffs.[/QUOTE

Who was the best?

[ftballin11]

[QUOTE=ftballin11;1107909]I agree on that drive Daniel made a great scramble on a broken play, on a 3 and 20. He allowed that second scoring drive to happen. I will say Daniel is the second best HS QB I have seen in person.

But if you look at the amount of times Katy drove the entire field only to come up empty handed was amazing. The first half Katy did not execute. If they would have finished off the drives they had early. They could have opened up a comfortable lead. I think it was the coaches that failed to execute in the first half.

But your right about not turning the ball over. I dont think that team turned it over the entire playoffs.[/QUOTE

Who was the best?

Vince Young. Got to see him play against Katy 3x. The guy was a man among boys.

[ftballin11]

That would be a strong indicator of superior, red zone defense by Carroll. You cannot claim one team shut the other down because of their defense and then illustrate how the other team did the same to you but blame it on offensive execution. That game was a war, period.

Yes i agree. I just think that going for it on forth instead of taking a field goal, and not getting the field goal before were very big. I think the coaching staff mismanaged that part. But id be interested to see what the run down of stats were. I know SLC had the long 80 yard pass on the first drive, but other than that they really had to work for every yard.

[DrEdward]

Neither team dominated. The momentum shifted back and forth over the four quarters. Carroll started on the front foot, and then Katy got into the game in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Carroll made a nice adjustment in the 4th quarter by running Daniel and Luna. They should have done more of that to offset the pressure Katy was bringing.

The best thing Katy did in the game was take care of the football. Katy didn't make the costly mistake, and that's ultimately why they were able to win the game. The game came down to execution. Katy executed when they had to and Carroll did not. Both teams had their chances.

This, :Censor:. (Way to go last night Wake!!)

[SLC93]

The '91 team was very good, I just feel that going 15-1 and playing in the title game and coming up short by 1 point makes them the 8th best ever..Keeping in mind its the 8th season in which Carroll has won at least 15 games.

After further review, I've decided to recant but for my own reasons. The best 14 win team in school history was, by far, the 1987 edition of the Dragons. They would have easily beaten every 3A version of Carroll other than 88 & 92 and they would have given those two all they could handle.

[15Adragon]

After further review, I've decided to recant but for my own reasons. The best 14 win team in school history was, by far, the 1987 edition of the Dragons. They would have easily beaten every 3A version of Carroll other than 88 & 92 and they would have given those two all they could handle.

They were good, but do you think they would have beaten the '93 team? I'm not sure about that one.

[SLC93]

They were good, but do you think they would have beaten the '93 team? I'm not sure about that one.

I love the 93 team because they just decided to win state and willed their way to it. They were far less talented than the 92 squad and had little depth because the junior class, as a whole, on that team was the weakest in 7-8 years. The seniors on that squad made that happen and I have sooo much respect for them for that. Having said all of that, that 87 team featured all the kids that would win the title in 88 plus a very good senior class of their own. The best starting backfield in our history was on that team, imo. Uldrich, Walker and Blanchard were all juniors and would star again in 88. The difference maker was Mike Riedel, the best fullback to ever play at Carroll. Many of our younger posters will snicker because they don't even know what a fullback is. I'll tell you he was a devastating blocker and a 1000 yard rusher. I believe that the only reason that team slipped up in the semi's was because McGregor played out of their minds and we had never been that far before. They laid the ground for all the great Dragon teams to come, imo.

[15Adragon]

I love the 93 team because they just decided to win state and willed their way to it. They were far less talented than the 92 squad and had little depth because the junior class, as a whole, on that team was the weakest in 7-8 years. The seniors on that squad made that happen and I have sooo much respect for them for that. Having said all of that, that 87 team featured all the kids that would win the title in 88 plus a very good senior class of their own. The best starting backfield in our history was on that team, imo. Uldrich, Walker and Blanchard were all juniors and would star again in 88. The difference maker was Mike Riedel, the best fullback to ever play at Carroll. Many of our younger posters will snicker because they don't even know what a fullback is. I'll tell you he was a devastating blocker and a 1000 yard rusher. I believe that the only reason that team slipped up in the semi's was because McGregor played out of their minds and we had never been that far before. They laid the ground for all the great Dragon teams to come, imo.

Yes, they were good. There were a lot of 2-way players. Blanchard played DE, Walker was a safety and I can't remember where Uldrich played on D - I want to say LB.

Jumping ahead... I remember Dane played 2-ways and ran KO and punts back. You did not leave to go and get popcorn when we were returning punts and kickoffs. Ahhmmm, I don't remember ever seeing a "fair catch" in the 92-93 seasons. This could be that I choose to remember it this way. We played the return game as an offensive opportunity. (hint: It would do us some good to revisit this strategy). :ninja:

[crunked9]

Yes, they were good. There were a lot of 2-way players. Blanchard played DE, Walker was a safety and I can't remember where Uldrich played on D - I want to say LB.

Jumping ahead... I remember Dane played 2-ways and ran KO and punts back. You did not leave to go and get popcorn when we were returning punts and kickoffs. Ahhmmm, I don't remember ever seeing a "fair catch" in the 92-93 seasons. This could be that I choose to remember it this way. We played the return game as an offensive opportunity. (hint: It would do us some good to revisit this strategy). :ninja:

Ok, here it is...... SLC and it's punt returning, this decade.

Before 2000, which is also the year of Kyle Brown, rumor has it that Dodge made the punt return fair catch every punt. No matter the situation.

When Kyle Brown came along he let him return them..... pretty good idea!
Then he allow the next two returners to do the same, Sellari and Mckay.

Then no more. I guess Wasson shares the same ideas. If you don't have a play maker back there, just have them fair catch.

[15Adragon]

Ok, here it is...... SLC and it's punt returning, this decade.

Before 2000, which is also the year of Kyle Brown, rumor has it that Dodge made the punt return fair catch every punt. No matter the situation.

When Kyle Brown came along he let him return them..... pretty good idea!
Then he allow the next two returners to do the same, Sellari and Mckay.

Then no more. I guess Wasson shares the same ideas. If you don't have a play maker back there, just have them fair catch.

Thanks for the background. I think I do suffer from selective memory on this. I do remember Dane, Kyle, Sellari, and McKay and their punt returns. They were all fun to watch. I think Kyle would catch the punts in traffic at full speed. That was crazy to watch. That guy was fearless (all of you were for that matter). Yes, I think this is something the coaches decide and not the players. When you are the heavy favorite you don't need any help from the return teams just get us the ball back, but it is still fun to watch.

[crunked9]

Thanks for the background. I think I do suffer from selective memory on this. I do remember Dane, Kyle, Sellari, and McKay and their punt returns. They were all fun to watch. I think Kyle would catch the punts in traffic at full speed. That was crazy to watch. That guy was fearless (all of you were for that matter). Yes, I think this is something the coaches decide and not the players. When you are the heavy favorite you don't need any help from the return teams just get us the ball back, but it is still fun to watch.

My thought is, if you are going to fair catch it no matter what, for what ever reason. You should atleast go for a full out block. But when you dont do anything on a return, that is not a good plan.

I also think that special teams are the biggest game changers. Example Florida, when the block a punt, pat, or field goal, they win 92% of the time.

[SLC93]

Ok, here it is...... SLC and it's punt returning, this decade.

Before 2000, which is also the year of Kyle Brown, rumor has it that Dodge made the punt return fair catch every punt. No matter the situation.

When Kyle Brown came along he let him return them..... pretty good idea!
Then he allow the next two returners to do the same, Sellari and Mckay.

Then no more. I guess Wasson shares the same ideas. If you don't have a play maker back there, just have them fair catch.

I hear ya but it's a little hard to believe, with all the talent that has come through this program, we don't have a playmaker to put in that slot.

[SLC93]

My thought is, if you are going to fair catch it no matter what, for what ever reason. You should atleast go for a full out block. But when you dont do anything on a return, that is not a good plan.

I also think that special teams are the biggest game changers. Example Florida, when the block a punt, pat, or field goal, they win 92% of the time.

Agreed.

[KT2000]

I remember at halftime of the 2005 game I was thinking whether or not Carroll would score 40+. The Tigers didn't look prepared in the first half and were lucky it was only 17-3. The third quarter was a different story (Will Thompson) and then the Dragons regained control in the fourth.

I didn't get a very good vibe of Katy in the lead up to that game because of the two previous weeks. Injury wise, Katy limped to the finish line. Andy Dalton broke a finger on his passing hand early in the quarterfinal against Cy Falls and played through it until he addressed it with surgery in the off-season. Katy was just as beat up on defense. The three most experienced players in the secondary after Thompson were all injured. Two of them played hurt in the title game, and the other was out the entire playoffs.

Carroll exploited that weakness to full effect in the title game. The Tigers had a couple of sophomores undergo trial by fire in that game. Most of McElroy's success came on vertical routes. Smiter had a huge game running down the hashes. Katy actually didn't do that poorly against the underneath stuff. The tackling on Newton was very poor, but that's what happens when you're forced to make plays in space against talented people.

What surprised me most about Carroll's 05 team was their defense. They were very strong up front and didn't budge. The Tigers could not run the football. Katy didn't have a spectacular run offense that year, but Carroll was easily the best run defense the Tigers had seen.

[crunked9]

I hear ya but it's a little hard to believe, with all the talent that has come through this program, we don't have a playmaker to put in that slot.

Well, here is what I think, the players today are too fine tuned. They learn how to play reciever. They learn that, thats it. And in my opinion they are becoming robots of the system. As a reciever your job the to catch as pass and get open. Anything after that is gravy.

Now, look back to before 2000. We ran the option running game. As a RB you better be able to make a quick move on a LB or D line men or your going to get popped. You learned how to make a move with the ball and make a play. Which is all returning a punt is.

In my opinion, the kids are pushed into being robots of the system. They need to learn to be athletes before they become receivers.

They are also taught to run North and South. NEVER SIDE TO SIDE!! They then become afraid of making something happen!

[15Adragon]

Well, here is what I think, the players today are too fine tuned. They learn how to play reciever. They learn that, thats it. And in my opinion they are becoming robots of the system. As a reciever your job the to catch as pass and get open. Anything after that is gravy.

Now, look back to before 2000. We ran the option running game. As a RB you better be able to make a quick move on a LB or D line men or your going to get popped. You learned how to make a move with the ball and make a play. Which is all returning a punt is.

In my opinion, the kids are pushed into being robots of the system. They need to learn to be athletes before they become receivers.

They are also taught to run North and South. NEVER SIDE TO SIDE!! They then become afraid of making something happen!

+1

They way it looks from the stands is that we are playing tight. I have commented on that a few times this season. A RB/WR gets loose in the secondary and they start covering the ball up with both hands. A little cautious or a sound play. We could go either way. It is good to understand and make a few minor adjustments to the process / systems and move on. I think you are spot on with this post. I'm not smart enough to know the remedy cuz the system has brought us a lot of wins and good times.

[SLC93]

Well, here is what I think, the players today are too fine tuned. They learn how to play reciever. They learn that, thats it. And in my opinion they are becoming robots of the system. As a reciever your job the to catch as pass and get open. Anything after that is gravy.

Now, look back to before 2000. We ran the option running game. As a RB you better be able to make a quick move on a LB or D line men or your going to get popped. You learned how to make a move with the ball and make a play. Which is all returning a punt is.

In my opinion, the kids are pushed into being robots of the system. They need to learn to be athletes before they become receivers.

They are also taught to run North and South. NEVER SIDE TO SIDE!! They then become afraid of making something happen!


Funny that you went that way with your analysis. I was thinking something very similar when I responded last. I agree with all of that and o not feel it diminishes the difficulty of fielding a punt cleanly. I came from the time when we all played multiple positions and many were two way starters. At some point, playing ball is just playing ball. It's not all that different than it was in the backyard when you tried not to get laid out into the oak tree. I do worry sometimes, especially at a program like Carroll, if our kids enjoy the game as much as they should.

[62tiger]

Katy did a lot of Fair catching this year. Retirners are harder to find than people know. Does not have to be the fastest kid....but must have great instincts.

Crunked,

Your analogy is why I think DB's make better returners.

[SLC]

After further review, I've decided to recant but for my own reasons. The best 14 win team in school history was, by far, the 1987 edition of the Dragons. They would have easily beaten every 3A version of Carroll other than 88 & 92 and they would have given those two all they could handle.



It was a very good team, but I dont think I could say they would have beaten 3 state title teams...They were handled pretty well against McGregor in the semis and McGregor had very little for that '87 Cuero team that was hardly scored on during that playoff run. I guess its open to each persons opinion and the beauty of having so many great teams, even those that didnt play for or win the title, is truly awesome.

[slcdragonfan]

I hear ya but it's a little hard to believe, with all the talent that has come through this program, we don't have a playmaker to put in that slot.

Anybody remember the first KO return of the season last year? Pretty good soph coughed up the ball. Just sayin'....

[crunked9]

Anybody remember the first KO return of the season last year? Pretty good soph coughed up the ball. Just sayin'....

Does anyone remember the last time SLC returned a kickoff for a TD???

[crunked9]

The reason I think I was a good punt returner was the fact that for 3 year 7,8,9th grade I was a halfback running the wishbone option. I was 120 lbs.(maybe) and couldn't run a 5 year old over. But I learned to move! If they can't touch you, they can't tackle you! Then Dodge came along and running a route was like running with the ball. Just make a move!

Which of course carried over to punt returning.

[15Adragon]

Anybody remember the first KO return of the season last year? Pretty good soph coughed up the ball. Just sayin'....

Good point. Here is the counter to that. It was 120 on the field that day and he was a Soph in his first varsity game. He had obviously shown something in practice to be put in that position. So why don't you put him back in there the next week? If you believe in the kid then give him a chance. It is not like we were thinking the Arl game at home was going to be close. If he earned the spot then stick with him! Several weeks later we saw what he could do.

[15Adragon]

Does anyone remember the last time SLC returned a kickoff for a TD???

Fall '97 Dane ran one back against UT in Austin. Saw that one on TV. Oh, that wasn't SL that was a Dragon at least. No I can't.

[SLC]

Well, here is what I think, the players today are too fine tuned. They learn how to play reciever. They learn that, thats it. And in my opinion they are becoming robots of the system. As a reciever your job the to catch as pass and get open. Anything after that is gravy.

Now, look back to before 2000. We ran the option running game. As a RB you better be able to make a quick move on a LB or D line men or your going to get popped. You learned how to make a move with the ball and make a play. Which is all returning a punt is.

In my opinion, the kids are pushed into being robots of the system. They need to learn to be athletes before they become receivers.

They are also taught to run North and South. NEVER SIDE TO SIDE!! They then become afraid of making something happen!


Pretty damn spot on in my opinion. Todays skill players, especially in a system like Carroll's, are all position specialists. They all learn to play one spot and are taught to excell at that position and at times the big game changing things like returning punts can go without the proper work and practice, and without those things occuring they are not run properly..ie position, angles, ball in the proper hand and others..And some coaches really coach that way and I believe TD was one of the coaches who prefered to focus on offense and defense, rather than spending time on punt returns..it took time away from practicing on the offensive schemes..there were times even with puntiing itself that TD would rather go for a fourth down, than punt the ball..and times when he did the same with field goals..he felt the offense was his best tool...and few can hardly blame him for that way of thinking, other than it affected time spent perfecting the art of the return game.

Its amazing how many coaches take that very same approach nowadays, its never lost on me how the old style or running style coaches seem to always be the coaches who like the return gaqmes and some of the spread teams do alot of fair catches.. I hope we are not seeing a time when the return game will dissappear all together...and then we look back in 20 years and say wow, where did the huddle and punt returns go.

[slcdragonfan]

Good point. Here is the counter to that. It was 120 on the field that day and he was a Soph in his first varsity game. He had obviously shown something in practice to be put in that position. So why don't you put him back in there the next week? If you believe in the kid then give him a chance. It is not like we were thinking the Arl game at home was going to be close. If he earned the spot then stick with him! Several weeks later we saw what he could do.

True...All True. And he did get a chance later as you say. But it doesn't always work out, it is a gamble, and it can lose the game for you.

Of course field position can also lose the game for you. { thinking of Coppell.... }

[15Adragon]

True...All True. And he did get a chance later as you say. But it doesn't always work out, it is a gamble, and it can lose the game for you.

Of course field position can also lose the game for you. { thinking of Coppell.... }

Coppell we fumbled a KO on about the ten yard line. It was a different player, but I would give credit to Coppell on that one. It was a monster hit. The guy was unblocked and it was a decleater if I am remembering it correctly.

[slcdragonfan]

Coppell we fumbled a KO on about the ten yard line. It was a different player, but I would give credit to Coppell on that one. It was a monster hit. The guy was unblocked and it was a decleater if I am remembering it correctly.

I think you are correct. Was it the Hebron game then?

[SLC93]

It was a very good team, but I dont think I could say they would have beaten 3 state title teams...They were handled pretty well against McGregor in the semis and McGregor had very little for that '87 Cuero team that was hardly scored on during that playoff run. I guess its open to each persons opinion and the beauty of having so many great teams, even those that didnt play for or win the title, is truly awesome.

Didn't say they would have beaten 3 title teams. They would have beaten the 93 squad, of that I have no doubt. The other two, they could have hung with but would have fell to.

[crunked9]

Good point. Here is the counter to that. It was 120 on the field that day and he was a Soph in his first varsity game. He had obviously shown something in practice to be put in that position. So why don't you put him back in there the next week? If you believe in the kid then give him a chance. It is not like we were thinking the Arl game at home was going to be close. If he earned the spot then stick with him! Several weeks later we saw what he could do.

The first time I touched the ball on varsity I returned a punt for a TD. It was 2001 first game of the year, at Wichita Falls, the team that had beat SLC the year before in the PO's.

Ballers make it happen!

But I agree, one play, especially the first of the year, should not make you lose your spot and such

[crunked9]

Pretty damn spot on in my opinion. Todays skill players, especially in a system like Carroll's, are all position specialists. They all learn to play one spot and are taught to excell at that position and at times the big game changing things like returning punts can go without the proper work and practice, and without those things occuring they are not run properly..ie position, angles, ball in the proper hand and others..And some coaches really coach that way and I believe TD was one of the coaches who prefered to focus on offense and defense, rather than spending time on punt returns..it took time away from practicing on the offensive schemes..there were times even with puntiing itself that TD would rather go for a fourth down, than punt the ball..and times when he did the same with field goals..he felt the offense was his best tool...and few can hardly blame him for that way of thinking, other than it affected time spent perfecting the art of the return game.

Its amazing how many coaches take that very same approach nowadays, its never lost on me how the old style or running style coaches seem to always be the coaches who like the return gaqmes and some of the spread teams do alot of fair catches.. I hope we are not seeing a time when the return game will dissappear all together...and then we look back in 20 years and say wow, where did the huddle and punt returns go.

This also holds true for kids being one sport speciallist!

I believe that each sport helps different type skills, which help other sports. It will also help a kid not get burnt out.

[SLC]

Didn't say they would have beaten 3 title teams. They would have beaten the 93 squad, of that I have no doubt. The other two, they could have hung with but would have fell to.

Oh I know you didn't say that and honestly you may be right, you were here and played on those older teams, I only had the beauty of being a fan of HSF and knowing the teams around the state and the good fortune of seeing alot of them play...I'm just always causious of comparing a one loss team or a team the fell short of a title game to teams that won the title.. and its also difficult weighing one year to another.. But again you very well may be right, as you were intimantly involved with those teams.

[SLC]

This also holds true for kids being one sport speciallist!

I believe that each sport helps different type skills, which help other sports. It will also help a kid not get burnt out.


Absolutely agree. I dont get why alot of coaches prefer you dont play other sports though, it was especially true when my son played soccer...the coaches didn't want him anywhere near the football field or the basketball courts.

[kttxboy1254]

haha this is just an SLC thread! how about instead of picking the weakest lets pick the strongest on the list! ill say katy def. 07' SLC 05'.

[dragonsdaddy]

haha this is just an SLC thread! how about instead of picking the weakest lets pick the strongest on the list! ill say katy def. 07' SLC 05'.

hi jack. how are you?

[slcdragonfan]

haha this is just an SLC thread! how about instead of picking the weakest lets pick the strongest on the list! ill say katy def. 07' SLC 05'.

Kittybox, you are full of........litter?:D

I saw the '07 team in the state game (strong second half), my Dad saw the '07 team against Pasadena. Good balance, great team. But no, wouldn't happen.

[SLC93]

haha this is just an SLC thread! how about instead of picking the weakest lets pick the strongest on the list! ill say katy def. 07' SLC 05'.

05 Carroll by 14

[drgnbkr]

05 Carroll by 14

07 Carroll would have beaten 07 Katy had Riley stayed upright...no doubt. 05 would have for sure.

[SLC]

haha this is just an SLC thread! how about instead of picking the weakest lets pick the strongest on the list! ill say katy def. 07' SLC 05'.


SO you want to compare a very good '07 Katy team, to an '05 Carroll team that is regarded by some as the best single season team ever?...No sale.

[SLC]

07 Carroll would have beaten 07 Katy had Riley stayed upright...no doubt. 05 would have for sure.


No doubt in my mind that the '07 Carroll team would have won the title if RD hadn't of gone down.

[KatyTigerDad0407]

I regard the 05' Carroll as one of the best teams Carroll ever put on the field. I'm have no opinion on the 07' Carroll team as I was too caught up in the 07' Tigers and Carroll was out. I still believe the 05' Carroll team was the best.

There is a healthy debate among Katy fans between the 00' Tigers and the 07' Tigers as to which was the better team. I personally didn't see the 00' Tigers play, but I have been in love with the Tigers since the 02' season.

I have often used Calpreps to project match ups between teams from different years. Calpreps does not allow you to go back to the year 00'. Calpreps has often been wrong on its projections.

Calpreps projected 03' Carroll to beat 03' Katy. It was wrong. Several other times this season it was wrong. It also projects 07' Katy to beat 05' Carroll. I'm not saying it is wrong or right, just interesting.

On another note, It is off season and the board isn't as busy. I started this thread just for debate. I should not have used the word 'weakest'. I apologize for that. Maybe the term 'least best' would have been more appropriate.

[Fleeman93]

No doubt in my mind that the '07 Carroll team would have won the title if RD hadn't of gone down.

No doubt in my mind Katy would have beat Carroll in 05' had Dalton not broke his hand. Man that is easy to do and no one can prove me wrong. Nice!

[Dynastybegan86]

Wylie was the weakest or "least best" team out of any of the finals teams listed.

Is that what your asking? I mean they only scored 3 points against Katy! Katy who never plays anyone except for patsies. :ninja:

[Fleeman93]

Wylie was the weakest or "least best" team out of any of the finals teams listed.

Is that what your asking? I mean they only scored 3 points against Katy! Katy who never plays anyone except for patsies. :ninja:


Your logic doesn't fly. If Wylie was a patsie then Allen would have been a patsie or at least close to a patsie and no one seems to think that.

:rolleyes:

[Dynastybegan86]

Your logic doesn't fly. If Wylie was a patsie then Allen would have been a patsie or at least close to a patsie and no one seems to think that.

:rolleyes:

Then they are in denial! My logic flys! Sometimes it's just too fast for them to see!:notworthy

[mojo4life]

No doubt in my mind that the '07 Carroll team would have won the title if RD hadn't of gone down.

I have to agree with you 100% they were on there way to thumping Abilene and fate took over...(note)I'm saying this and I wanted Abilene to beat you guys........I also think you would of beat Katy this year if you were healthy ;you beat a cinco ranch team pretty darn good, that beat Katy..
That being said health is part of the game and Katy got it done.......

[SLC93]

07 Carroll would have beaten 07 Katy had Riley stayed upright...no doubt. 05 would have for sure.

No doubt in my mind that the '07 Carroll team would have won the title if RD hadn't of gone down.

+ me. They were finally getting some health and peaking at the right time. That Abiline game was well on it's way to being an 05 repeat. The game would have been a great one but 07 Carroll, if healthy, beats 07 Katy.

[SLC93]

I have to agree with you 100% they were on there way to thumping Abilene and fate took over...(note)I'm saying this and I wanted Abilene to beat you guys........I also think you would of beat Katy this year if you were healthy ;you beat a cinco ranch team pretty darn good, that beat Katy..
That being said health is part of the game and Katy got it done.......

1) Thank god, for Abiline, that injuries are part of the game. No team benefitted from that fact in 07 more than the Eagles.
2) Like they always do. (except in 05 :D)

[SLC93]

Your logic doesn't fly. If Wylie was a patsie then Allen would have been a patsie or at least close to a patsie and no one seems to think that.

:rolleyes:

Quote matters not. Just wanted to recognize that wicked avatar. Nice.:cool:

[drgnbkr]

No doubt in my mind Katy would have beat Carroll in 05' had Dalton not broke his hand. Man that is easy to do and no one can prove me wrong. Nice!

The 05 Dragons proved you wrong on the field, where it mattered. An injury to his non-throwing hand doesn't really fly...sorry. We can argue all day on here about what if's, 05 was about what was.

[SLC93]

The 05 Dragons proved you wrong on the field, where it mattered. An injury to his non-throwing hand doesn't really fly...sorry. We can argue all day on here about what if's, 05 was about what was.

Oh, we can argue alot longer than that. This 05 v 07 thing is already working on it's second year. Were it not for the what ifs .....................:D

[Fleeman93]

The 05 Dragons proved you wrong on the field, where it mattered. An injury to his non-throwing hand doesn't really fly...sorry. We can argue all day on here about what if's, 05 was about what was.

In post #77 our resident guru and Katy fan suggests that it was on his throwing hand. Most likely without the injury to Dalton he doesn't throw 4 picks in that game (look up his INT stats on the season) and it would have made a huge difference. Would Katy have won the the game, I have no idea. I do know it would have been a much much closer game.

[SLC]

No doubt in my mind Katy would have beat Carroll in 05' had Dalton not broke his hand. Man that is easy to do and no one can prove me wrong. Nice!


Here's what Carroll lost when Riley went down in 2007.

3500 yds and 39 tds passing
800 yds and 13 tds rushing
A member of the 2008 45th annual Parade All American High School Team
2007 EA Sports first team All American
2007 Gatorade Player of the Year
Co 2007 TSWA 5A Offensive Player of the Year
2007 5A All State Player
2007 District 5-5A MVP
2007 DMN Offensive Player of the Year
2007 FWST Offensive Player of the Year

Andy Dalton played in his game with an injured non throwing hand.

We know Andy was beaten on the field in a game in which he played well enough to win. 2007 Carroll was unable to prove they could beat Katy due to an injury that required major surgery to the best player in the state, let alone on his own team. While no proof to back up my feelings on it, there is little doubt in my mind that had Riley not have gotten injured, that Carroll would have won their 5th title in 6 years.

[crunked9]

'02 SLC would beat any of those other teams

JUST THE FACTS!

I know you will all talk about the numbers and this and that but the '02 team had it all. And the fact is no other team on there would be able to stop the
'02 offense.

Also, the '02 had the best secondary! No doubt about that! Which would mean that the other SLC teams on there would have a harder time throwing the ball.

[KT2000]

I would like to see 02 Carroll vs. 05 Carroll. The Katy equivalent of that would be 00 Katy vs. 07 Katy.

[crunked9]

I would like to see 02 Carroll vs. 05 Carroll. The Katy equivalent of that would be 00 Katy vs. 07 Katy.

Get them together.

'02 SLC vs '05 SLC
'00 Katy vs '07 Katy

Winners Play each other!

[Dynastybegan86]

All you greenheads, that think with Riley healthy you would have beaten Katy in 2007, are smoking some wacky cracky. Folks, there wasn't a team in Texas that could've beaten Katy in 2007, oh wait, none did! I love the banter and debate, but 2007 Katy smokes any SC team this decade, with exception of the '05 team. That game would have been a battle, Katy would have pulled it out imo. There is no doubt in my mind that SC deserves its accolades and respect, but Katy does as well. Since 2001 our records are practical identical. Katy has 2 more regular season losses than SC in this time frame. So all the chest thumpin and bumpin is fun to read, until someone knocks the wind out of themselves, then it's not so fun anymore. *%cough#@*cough, excuse me.:cool:

[crunked9]

All you greenheads, that think with Riley healthy you would have beaten Katy in 2007, are smoking some wacky cracky. Folks, there wasn't a team in Texas that could've beaten Katy in 2007, oh wait, none did! I love the banter and debate, but 2007 Katy smokes any SC team this decade, with exception of the '05 team. That game would have been a battle, Katy would have pulled it out imo. There is no doubt in my mind that SC deserves its accolades and respect, but Katy does as well. Since 2001 our records are practical identical. Katy has 2 more regular season losses than SC in this time frame. So all the chest thumpin and bumpin is fun to read, until someone knocks the wind out of themselves, then it's not so fun anymore. *%cough#@*cough, excuse me.:cool:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The the best teams in this decade and possible in recent history are SLC '05, SLC '02, and North Sore '03.

Not saying thet SLC '07 would have beaten Katy '07 with dodge. I dont really know.

But to say that Katy '07 smokes any SLC team from this decade is the dumbest statement every!

[drgnbkr]

All you greenheads, that think with Riley healthy you would have beaten Katy in 2007, are smoking some wacky cracky. Folks, there wasn't a team in Texas that could've beaten Katy in 2007, oh wait, none did! I love the banter and debate, but 2007 Katy smokes any SC team this decade, with exception of the '05 team. That game would have been a battle, Katy would have pulled it out imo. There is no doubt in my mind that SC deserves its accolades and respect, but Katy does as well. Since 2001 our records are practical identical. Katy has 2 more regular season losses than SC in this time frame. So all the chest thumpin and bumpin is fun to read, until someone knocks the wind out of themselves, then it's not so fun anymore. *%cough#@*cough, excuse me.:cool:

The wacky weed is effecting your judgement...smokes any team? Get real:rolleyes:

[15Adragon]

'02 SLC would beat any of those other teams

JUST THE FACTS!

I know you will all talk about the numbers and this and that but the '02 team had it all. And the fact is no other team on there would be able to stop the
'02 offense.

Also, the '02 had the best secondary! No doubt about that! Which would mean that the other SLC teams on there would have a harder time throwing the ball.

It is hard to argue against this post. The '02 team was incredible. They had a 7 foot (well maybe 6-7, but looked 7 foot againast some of those corners) WR with great hands who was impossible to cover in the red zone. They had very athletic slot rec.'s and a very athletic and accurate QB and a future pro baseball player as a RB. That O was special.

The '05 team was special cuz of the difficulty of PO schedule and the way the pounded everyone and the stats they put up. They were tough too.

[crunked9]

It is hard to argue against this post. The '02 team was incredible. They had a 7 foot (well maybe 6-7, but looked 7 foot againast some of those corners) WR with great hands who was impossible to cover in the red zone. They had very athletic slot rec.'s and a very athletic and accurate QB and a future pro baseball player as a RB. That O was special.

The '05 team was special cuz of the difficulty of PO schedule and the way the pounded everyone and the stats they put up. They were tough too.

I agree, They had a very difficult PO. And they did dominate.

Just across the board. I don't see any team matching up with the '02 WR's

[Dynastybegan86]

The wacky weed is effecting your judgement...smokes any team? Get real:rolleyes:

Not any team, SC! It's wacky cracky, the weed is for Cinco....nm. Don't they teach y'all to read in SC? I am real, dog!

[Dynastybegan86]

is the dumbest statement every!

Uh, no I think you've got me on the dumbest statement thing:eek:

***please note that this qoute is not doctored or enhanced***

[crunked9]

Uh, no I think you've got me on the dumbest statement thing:eek:

***please note that this qoute is not doctored or enhanced***

oh no I messed up typing

[E-Vol-ution]

I really don't see '07 Katy beating '07 Trinity..........just my opinion.All you greenheads, that think with Riley healthy you would have beaten Katy in 2007, are smoking some wacky cracky. Folks, there wasn't a team in Texas that could've beaten Katy in 2007, oh wait, none did! I love the banter and debate, but 2007 Katy smokes any SC team this decade, with exception of the '05 team. That game would have been a battle, Katy would have pulled it out imo. There is no doubt in my mind that SC deserves its accolades and respect, but Katy does as well. Since 2001 our records are practical identical. Katy has 2 more regular season losses than SC in this time frame. So all the chest thumpin and bumpin is fun to read, until someone knocks the wind out of themselves, then it's not so fun anymore. *%cough#@*cough, excuse me.:cool:

[SLC]

All you greenheads, that think with Riley healthy you would have beaten Katy in 2007, are smoking some wacky cracky. Folks, there wasn't a team in Texas that could've beaten Katy in 2007, oh wait, none did! I love the banter and debate, but 2007 Katy smokes any SC team this decade, with exception of the '05 team. That game would have been a battle, Katy would have pulled it out imo. There is no doubt in my mind that SC deserves its accolades and respect, but Katy does as well. Since 2001 our records are practical identical. Katy has 2 more regular season losses than SC in this time frame. So all the chest thumpin and bumpin is fun to read, until someone knocks the wind out of themselves, then it's not so fun anymore. *%cough#@*cough, excuse me.:cool:


First...no way.


Ok, that '07 Katy team was very good, but they played no ranked opponents that season and didn't exactly kill in the title game against Pflugy.

They scored 701 points..gave up 132 points and had 4 shutouts.

They played teams with a combined record of 111-72.


'05 Carroll

Played and beat the #6 team, #5 team, and #4 team and against those ranked opponents beat them by a total of 132-48.

Also they scored 764 points...gave up 256 points and had 4 shutouts, 1 was against the #6 team in the state..beating them 52-0.

They played teams with a combined record of 120-65.




I think '05 Carroll would beat '07 Katy by 2 tds.

[KT2000]

I think '05 Carroll would beat '07 Katy by 2 tds.

Assuming both teams were full strength and at their best, I wouldn't call it more than 7 points in either team's favor. I scribbled some of the match-ups down on paper during lunch here for fun and my mouth watered.

Katy had a very balanced offense in 05, but it was balanced to greater effect in 07 due to the running game improvement. I also favor the 07 team defensively. They were more experienced at linebacker and had better playmaking types across the board. Katy had a few playmakers on defense in 05, but the 07 defense had them at every position. The 07 Katy team had the best special teams I'd seen on a Tiger team since 03. Most importantly, the 07 team took very good care of the football and weren't as turnover prone.

If you are judging the 07 team based only on what you saw against Pflguerville, I can understand your stance. Katy was sleep walking offensively in the first half. The third quarter was more indicative of the team's play for most of that season. Teams usually don't play their best in championship games due to the longevity of the season. Of course, teams usually peak before the 16th game.

[KatyTigerDad0407]

How blessed are the girls that they can argue over 10 finals teams in only 9 years? Each having only one loss. No doubt Katy has a ton of respect for Carroll and we wore with great pride the fact we were the only 5a team to put a loss on ya'll for quite a long time.

[crunked9]

Assuming both teams were full strength and at their best, I wouldn't call it more than 7 points in either team's favor. I scribbled some of the match-ups down on paper during lunch here for fun and my mouth watered.

Katy had a very balanced offense in 05, but it was balanced to greater effect in 07 due to the running game improvement. I also favor the 07 team defensively. They were more experienced at linebacker and had better playmaking types across the board. Katy had a few playmakers on defense in 05, but the 07 defense had them at every position. The 07 Katy team had the best special teams I'd seen on a Tiger team since 03. Most importantly, the 07 team took very good care of the football and weren't as turnover prone.

If you are judging the 07 team based only on what you saw against Pflguerville, I can understand your stance. Katy was sleep walking offensively in the first half. The third quarter was more indicative of the team's play for most of that season. Teams usually don't play their best in championship games due to the longevity of the season. Of course, teams usually peak before the 16th game.

The great ones play great in the biggest game!!

SLC '02! 510 passing yards(Most in a state championship game), 3 Wr's with a TD and 100 yards.

[KT2000]

The great ones play great in the biggest game!!

SLC '02! 510 passing yards(Most in a state championship game), 3 Wr's with a TD and 100 yards.

Yep, great performances like that are usually the exception in championship games.

[Mong Hu]

I rated the state finals teams in the following order starting at the bottom since the title of the thread is pick the weakest.

10) SLC 03
9) SLC 04
8) Katy 03
7) Katy 08
6) Katy 05
5) SLC 05
4) SLC 02
3) SLC 06
2) Katy 00
1) Katy 07

I don't think that you can use offensive numbers alone to determine the greatness of the team. I think you have to look at defensive numbers as well. SLC puts up big offensive numbers every year and very rarely does Katy touch those kind of numbers (2007 being the rare exception, 00 was close). Like wise on the defensive side of the ball Katy has the advantage over SLC (with the 06 championship team being the exception in this case). In order to develop the above list I basically looked at margin of victory. The Katy 07 team scored 5.31 points for every point it allowed while the Katy 00 team scored 4.97 for every point allowed. SLC version 2.6 put up 3.96 for every point allowed. The entire list would look as follows

K 07 5.31
K 00 4.97
S 06 3.96
S 02 3.14
S 05 2.98*
K 05 3.13
K 08 2.62
K 03 2.31
S 04 2.24
S 03 2.13

*Note S 05 is ranked above K 05 because S 05 beat K 05 in head to head competition.

I realize that this comparison only uses one criteria and is thus limited. I realize that it does not take into account strength of schedule (which no doubt all you SLC guys have been thinking about since reading the earlier parts of this post) but it is still one way of answering the question using data.

I do think that it becomes harder to argue the dominance of the 05 SLC team over the 07 Katy team given the above comparison but no doubt the argument will still be made.

[SLC]

I rated the state finals teams in the following order starting at the bottom since the title of the thread is pick the weakest.

10) SLC 03
9) SLC 04
8) Katy 03
7) Katy 08
6) Katy 05
5) SLC 05
4) SLC 02
3) SLC 06
2) Katy 00
1) Katy 07

I don't think that you can use offensive numbers alone to determine the greatness of the team. I think you have to look at defensive numbers as well. SLC puts up big offensive numbers every year and very rarely does Katy touch those kind of numbers (2007 being the rare exception, 00 was close). Like wise on the defensive side of the ball Katy has the advantage over SLC (with the 06 championship team being the exception in this case). In order to develop the above list I basically looked at margin of victory. The Katy 07 team scored 5.31 points for every point it allowed while the Katy 00 team scored 4.97 for every point allowed. SLC version 2.6 put up 3.96 for every point allowed. The entire list would look as follows

K 07 5.31
K 00 4.97
S 06 3.96
S 02 3.14
S 05 2.98*
K 05 3.13
K 08 2.62
K 03 2.31
S 04 2.24
S 03 2.13

*Note S 05 is ranked above K 05 because S 05 beat K 05 in head to head competition.

I realize that this comparison only uses one criteria and is thus limited. I realize that it does not take into account strength of schedule (which no doubt all you SLC guys have been thinking about since reading the earlier parts of this post) but it is still one way of answering the question using data.

I do think that it becomes harder to argue the dominance of the 05 SLC team over the 07 Katy team given the above comparison but no doubt the argument will still be made.


Funny you place a '07 and '00 team over an '05 Carroll team that had a tougher sos based on win/loss and Carroll played and beat state ranked opponents and the others did not.

I will have to find the WOS thread that shows the "05 Carroll team had the second toughest road to the title ever...in the history of this state.

And further..Not one educated soul that I have ever spoken to has listed any Katy team among the best ever in the history of HSF in this state..Let alone say any of their teams were the best this decade in comparison to a single season, but many say the '05 Carroll team might just be the best ever...in the history of HSF in Texas.

What you have there Mong is just homer talk.

[Dynastybegan86]

oh no I messed up typing

:laugh yes you did, but that's ok. I should have used a smiley.:D

[Dynastybegan86]

First...no way.


Ok, that '07 Katy team was very good, but they played no ranked opponents that season and didn't exactly kill in the title game against Pflugy.

They scored 701 points..gave up 132 points and had 4 shutouts.

They played teams with a combined record of 111-72.


'05 Carroll

Played and beat the #6 team, #5 team, and #4 team and against those ranked opponents beat them by a total of 132-48.

Also they scored 764 points...gave up 256 points and had 4 shutouts, 1 was against the #6 team in the state..beating them 52-0.

They played teams with a combined record of 120-65.




I think '05 Carroll would beat '07 Katy by 2 tds.

It's all about match-ups. This hypothetical game would have been a close one, as I stated. Katy and SC know each other very well. The '05 SC team did beat the '05 Katy team by 14, the '07 team was a better team than the '05 team. JMO.

As for the Pflugerville game, if you saw it, you know Katy took their foot off the gas after the fumbled punt recovery. A seasoned fan, as yourself, would know this to be true.

[15Adragon]

*Note S 05 is ranked above K 05 because S 05 beat K 05 in head to head competition.




After further review, I did find something in that post that I could agree with. :p

[Dynastybegan86]

I really don't see '07 Katy beating '07 Trinity..........just my opinion.

Would have liked to have seen that game, you're entitled to your opinion, no arguments. I'll just disgree with it and say I really don't see '07 Trinity beating '07 Katy.

[Dynastybegan86]

what you have there mong is just homer talk.

pot!!;)

[SLC]

It's all about match-ups. This hypothetical game would have been a close one, as I stated. Katy and SC know each other very well. The '05 SC team did beat the '05 Katy team by 14, the '07 team was a better team than the '05 team. JMO.

As for the Pflugerville game, if you saw it, you know Katy took their foot off the gas after the fumbled punt recovery. A seasoned fan, as yourself, would know this to be true.

As a seasoned fan who watched on TV, had the benefit of replay...I saw a Katy team that didnt look real good...and if not for a flukey td at the end of the first half, I believe the outcome may have been different.


You can spin it however you like..Nobody and I mean nobody regards Katy as having the best single season team ever..They do for the '05 Carroll team.

[crunked9]

As a seasoned fan who watched on TV, had the benefit of replay...I saw a Katy team that didnt look real good...and if not for a flukey td at the end of the first half, I believe the outcome may have been different.


You can spin it however you like..Nobody and I mean nobody regards Katy as having the best single season team ever..They do for the '05 Carroll team.

You mean '02 ;)

But I agree no one thinks that Katy has a team that sits higher that SLC's '05 or '02 or for that matter '06

[ftballin11]

As a seasoned fan who watched on TV, had the benefit of replay...I saw a Katy team that didnt look real good...and if not for a flukey td at the end of the first half, I believe the outcome may have been different.


You can spin it however you like..Nobody and I mean nobody regards Katy as having the best single season team ever..They do for the '05 Carroll team.

This thread is dumb, Slc is gunna say they are better, and Katy is gunna say they are better.

How can you say that 07' cant be in the running for best team ever. Nobody got within double digits of that team.

I personally think the 00' Katy is the greatest ever. But hey its fun. I just dont wanna see people saying others peoples opinions are dumb when there is no way of finding out.

All I can say is I cant wait for next year.

[Mong Hu]

Funny you place a '07 and '00 team over an '05 Carroll team that had a tougher sos based on win/loss and Carroll played and beat state ranked opponents and the others did not.

I will have to find the WOS thread that shows the "05 Carroll team had the second toughest road to the title ever...in the history of this state.

And further..Not one educated soul that I have ever spoken to has listed any Katy team among the best ever in the history of HSF in this state..Let alone say any of their teams were the best this decade in comparison to a single season, but many say the '05 Carroll team might just be the best ever...in the history of HSF in Texas.

What you have there Mong is just homer talk.


SLC,


I acknowledged the limitations of my own comparison and stated that it was based on a single criteria that attempted to measure both offensive and defensive strength of the teams in question (ie margin of victory). Further I stated that SOS was not taken into account in this comparison. I believe at least that would disqualify the post from the label "homer talk".

I have simply offered a piece of information which is in contradiction to your stated conclusions. I believe that simply stating that they played through a tougher road to the finals (which I am sure is true. My own conclusions were drawn from information that came from WOS's most recent offerings. I've said it before and I'll say it again that guy is awesome.) and is thus the better team is doing the same thing that I have done, using one criteria from which to draw your conclusions.

In regards to speaking with people about the best teams ever I have heard people on this board (not just from Katy) speak of the 07 team with very high regard. I am sure that you would retort that you said educated people but I would suggest that there are people on this board who in fact are educated about the game of football and in particular the game of football in Texas (yourself being included in that number).

You will also notice that in my post I placed 06 and 02 Carroll teams over the 05 team. Again it is using only one criteria but given that comparison that is where the teams fall. Not trying to be a homer just trying to let the numbers do the talking not my own personal feelings.

For my last response to your post I would draw attention to a response made by to you by Dyanstybegan86. You stated that 05 Carroll would beat 07 Katy by 2 TD's. Dynasty retorted by pointing out that 2 TD's was the margin of victory in the 05 championship game vs. the 05 Katy team and to use your own line of thinking I have not heard many educated fans claim that the 05 Katy team was as good as the 07 team. Please keep in mind that just because educated people believe something to be true that does not make it so. At one time the most educated people in Europe believed the Earth to be flat and one person stood and said wait a minute that might not be so and thus the world as they understood it changed.

[Mong Hu]

You mean '02 ;)

But I agree no one thinks that Katy has a team that sits higher that SLC's '05 or '02 or for that matter '06

I can think of a whole host of people who would put Katy's 07 and 00 team ahead of one or two of those teams. I think what you mean to say is that you can't think of anyone in North Texas who would put any Katy team above any of those three SLC teams.:)

[Mong Hu]

As a seasoned fan who watched on TV, had the benefit of replay...I saw a Katy team that didnt look real good...and if not for a flukey td at the end of the first half, I believe the outcome may have been different.


You can spin it however you like..Nobody and I mean nobody regards Katy as having the best single season team ever..They do for the '05 Carroll team.

I am sure that the 05 Carroll team was spectacular, all the Carroll teams are amazing. But I also feel that teams that put up gaudy point totals get a lot of attention. People notice offense. By virtue of the type of offense they play Carroll is going to put up crazy numbers on offense. I have seen and been a part of losing teams that could put up offensive numbers that beat or were at least comparable to Katy's. (Averageing 37 points per game and over 300 yards of passing per game running the spread offense of Carroll. Yeah we didn't play a lick of defense that year so frustrating. I was the O-line coach) Offensive numbers, which have been referenced on this thread in support of Carroll's case, are flashy and often times misleading. As I have tried to point out I think Katy is a better defensive football team than Carroll. Defense is not flashy and doesn't garner the attention from fans and press alike that Offense does. I think, as I am sure you and many educated observers do, defense plays as an important a role if not a more important role as offense on any great team. I am not trying to make the point that Carroll's 05 team might not have been great, please don't misunderstand me, I think Carroll has a powerful argument to make every claim that is made on this board including being the greatest team in Texas HSF history. I am simply trying to point out that there are arguments to be made, that perhaps your arguments could be wrong despite being strong arguments.

[TrojanHorse03]

I am sure that the 05 Carroll team was spectacular, all the Carroll teams are amazing. But I also feel that teams that put up gaudy point totals get a lot of attention. People notice offense. By virtue of the type of offense they play Carroll is going to put up crazy numbers on offense. I have seen and been a part of losing teams that could put up offensive numbers that beat or were at least comparable to Katy's. (Averageing 37 points per game and over 300 yards of passing per game running the spread offense of Carroll. Yeah we didn't play a lick of defense that year so frustrating. I was the O-line coach) Offensive numbers, which have been referenced on this thread in support of Carroll's case, are flashy and often times misleading. As I have tried to point out I think Katy is a better defensive football team than Carroll. Defense is not flashy and doesn't garner the attention from fans and press alike that Offense does. I think, as I am sure you and many educated observers do, defense plays as an important a role if not a more important role as offense on any great team. I am not trying to make the point that Carroll's 05 team might not have been great, please don't misunderstand me, I think Carroll has a powerful argument to make every claim that is made on this board including being the greatest team in Texas HSF history. I am simply trying to point out that there are arguments to be made, that perhaps your arguments could be despite being strong arguments.

Talk about a surprise...a Katy fan forgetting the real reason those Southlake teams are so highly regarded even among non-Carroll fans being...they beat nearly every state championship contender in Texas 5A SV, Lufkin, Abilene, Plano, Permian, Allen, Trinity, and even the next level, other worldly, magical defense of Katy(in a game that wasn't as close as the final score) on their road to 49 straight :eek::eek:! Nearly every state championship contender worthy of discussion on boards like this one got beat by Carroll with out them even dropping one game in 3 years....even Katy. I guess all those team's defenses weren't as good as Carroll's in the 1 place it counts, the scoreboard instead of the various season stats. I'm thinking and maybe neutral fans agree with me that maybe just maybe Carroll's defense was as good as anybody's in 2002, 2004-2006 and that how quickly and often their offense scored and their elite level competition kept them from matching Katy's stats. If we could actually do a poll of non-Carroll and non-Katy fans that actually adhered to that guideline :rolleyes:, I'm sure most would be more impressed by Carroll's defense getting the job done against the likes of those teams in those years than the defensive statistics of those Katy teams.

[Mong Hu]

Talk about a surprise...a Katy fan forgetting the real reason those Southlake teams are so highly regarded even among non-Carroll fans being...they beat nearly every state championship contender in Texas 5A SV, Lufkin, Abilene, Plano, Permian, Allen, Trinity, and even the next level, other worldly, magical defense of Katy(in a game that wasn't as close as the final score) on their road to 49 straight :eek::eek:! Nearly every state championship contender worthy of discussion on boards like this one got beat by Carroll with out them even dropping one game in 3 years....even Katy. I guess all those team's defenses weren't as good as Carroll's in the 1 place it counts, the scoreboard instead of the various season stats. I'm thinking and maybe neutral fans agree with me that maybe just maybe Carroll's defense was as good as anybody's in 2002, 2004-2006 and that how quickly and often their offense scored and their elite level competition kept them from matching Katy's stats. If we could actually do a poll of non-Carroll and non-Katy fans that actually adhered to that guideline :rolleyes:, I'm sure most would be more impressed by Carroll's defense getting the job done against the likes of those teams in those years than the defensive statistics of those Katy teams.

Trojanhorse03,

I believe that every year there are 64 contenders for the state title and I believe that both SLC and Katy have proven themselves to be the best of the 64 on 4 occasions each over the past decade. You say that Carroll has beaten every state contender worthy of discussion on this board, as if the contenders that Katy beat where not worthy of discussion on this board. You are insinuating, as many have, that somehow the Carroll wins and Championships are more impressive because, lets face it Carroll plays the superior competition of Region I week in and week out. You stated further that SLC beat every state contender even Katy. I believe that I can say the same about Katy. Katy has beaten every state contender even SLC. Your signature line states respect everybody, I do not believe that you respect the competition in Region III or IV. You view it as inferior. In fact in your post you state that the elite competition that SLC faced kept them from matching Katy's stats as if Katy's competition were so far inferior to SLC's. That is demeaning and not respectful of your opponents.

Thank you for your acknowledgment of the mythic status of the Katy defense. Especially high praise coming from someone in Northern Texas:rolleyes:. I will state again my claim that Katy is a stonger defensive team year in and year out than SLC (just as I believe that SLC is a stronger offsensive team year in and year out than Katy). I will try to go about supporting my belief in another way that may be more palatable to you. If you look at programs such as Converse Judson, Katy, SLC, Permian, and Plano (All programs which have 5 or more State Championship appearances in the largest classification since 1970) and compare their defensive efforts you will find some interesting comparisons. Between those 5 programs they have appeared in the state championship game 37 times. Of those 37 appearances those five programs have held their opponents to one score or less only 7 times. Converse Judson has managed that feat only one time in nine attempts when they beat ET 52-0 in 92. Permian also has accomplished this, like Judson, only one time in nine games. Plano has done it twice and Katy has done it three times. SLC has never managed to hold a state opponent to 1 score or less in a State Championship game in 5A (I did not look up 4A records). Further if you believe, as you seem to, that Region I and II are so far superior then SLC has failed to hold the inferior contenders of Region III and IV to one score or less in five attempts while Katy has held the far superior Region I and II competition to one score or less three times. A feat unequaled by any program in Texas over the last 38 years. So yes I feel that I am making a good argument when I say Katy's defense is a step above that of SLC. Katy's defense has gotten the job done in the State Championship game more effectively than SLC's.

Your signature reads Respect Everyone (I believe if you read my posts again my praise for SLC is apparent I stated clearly that they have strong arguments for every claim they make on this board including being the best Texas HFB team ever), Fear No One (I do not. Region I plays ball just like everyone else in the State I bet those boys up their even put their pants on one leg at a time and take a dump everyday just like you and I), and Have Fun (I do think these discussions are fun so if I ever seem a bit snippy please pay no attention to it I am having fun. I love a good argument.)

[Dynastybegan86]

Let's chew some fat, shall we......?

Since 2003
Katy has 3 Championships and 4 appearances, winning back-to-back in 07 and 08.
SC has 3 Cahmpionships and 4 appearances, winning back-to-back-to-back in 04,05, and 06.

Katy has a record of 84-8 in this span, .913
SC has a record of 82-6 in this span, .931

In the play-offs:
Katy is 29-3 in this span, .910
SC is 27-3 in this span, .900
They are tied 1-1 in head-to-head championship games
Katy is 2-1 against R1 teams in the title game and 1-0 against R2 teams in this span
SC is 1-1 against R3 teams and 2-0 against R4 teams in this span
Katy has out scored it's opponents 81-59 in title games (20ppg, 15papg)
SC has out scored it's opponents 119-89 in title games (30ppg, 22papg)

Katy played a Florida team and won.
SC played a Florida team and lost.

Don't talk with your mouth full!

[SLC]

This thread is dumb, Slc is gunna say they are better, and Katy is gunna say they are better.

How can you say that 07' cant be in the running for best team ever. Nobody got within double digits of that team.
I personally think the 00' Katy is the greatest ever. But hey its fun. I just dont wanna see people saying others peoples opinions are dumb when there is no way of finding out.

All I can say is I cant wait for next year.

Based fully off of the week in week out teams that Katy plays against, hey no fault of Katys, they play who is on the schedule and thats all they can do, but to be regarded as the best ever you need to have played against the best there is and Katy, just like North Shore, has not had to do that.

[85Roughneck]

There is no way in hell or on any other planet in any other solar system in this universe that I would ever think the '07 KATY team was the weakest team this decade or any other. (I would kindly ask the admins to move my vote to the '08 Katy team.)

Clearly I pushed the wrong button. My vote would have gone to the '08 Katy team as the weakest. However, in this poll the weakest team is still a pretty bad a$$ team. '08 Katy had great defense that would have held there own with any SLC team in this decade or any other ... IMHO.

PS ... CKE and SVHORNS have got to be kidding with their votes ... I know both you guys are very good at kidding.

[SLC]

SLC,


I acknowledged the limitations of my own comparison and stated that it was based on a single criteria that attempted to measure both offensive and defensive strength of the teams in question (ie margin of victory). Further I stated that SOS was not taken into account in this comparison. I believe at least that would disqualify the post from the label "homer talk".

I have simply offered a piece of information which is in contradiction to your stated conclusions. I believe that simply stating that they played through a tougher road to the finals (which I am sure is true. My own conclusions were drawn from information that came from WOS's most recent offerings. I've said it before and I'll say it again that guy is awesome.) and is thus the better team is doing the same thing that I have done, using one criteria from which to draw your conclusions.

In regards to speaking with people about the best teams ever I have heard people on this board (not just from Katy) speak of the 07 team with very high regard. I am sure that you would retort that you said educated people but I would suggest that there are people on this board who in fact are educated about the game of football and in particular the game of football in Texas (yourself being included in that number).

You will also notice that in my post I placed 06 and 02 Carroll teams over the 05 team. Again it is using only one criteria but given that comparison that is where the teams fall. Not trying to be a homer just trying to let the numbers do the talking not my own personal feelings.

For my last response to your post I would draw attention to a response made by to you by Dyanstybegan86. You stated that 05 Carroll would beat 07 Katy by 2 TD's. Dynasty retorted by pointing out that 2 TD's was the margin of victory in the 05 championship game vs. the 05 Katy team and to use your own line of thinking I have not heard many educated fans claim that the 05 Katy team was as good as the 07 team. Please keep in mind that just because educated people believe something to be true that does not make it so. At one time the most educated people in Europe believed the Earth to be flat and one person stood and said wait a minute that might not be so and thus the world as they understood it changed.


OK, so then using your criteria in your previous breakdown in getting the list you came up with it cant be labeled homerisms for that reason, I suppose just one way of making the arguement work in favor of the team you support. For me, I look at the total picture when trying to make the claim of which could be the best ever single season team and in that I look at overall strength of teams in a givin district or region or area..and base it with full results in mind. The DFW people will always claim their area and regions are tougher than that of the Houston area and with good reason, look at all the state titles and state appearances from the DFW. Its all backed up by proven results..sorry, but it is just fact that outside of Katy there is a big dropoff of teams that have dominated in this state..We play teams all season that have either played for titles, won titles or they have played teams that have done both of those.

There is always people from the Houston area that get their feelings hurt when talking about the strength of football in comparison to that thats played in North Texas...Its just facts that are rsults from the field of play that are woven over time..Maybe in 20 years we will look back and see the tide had turned and the results were more in favor of the Houston area, but at least for now, thats just not the case.


It ultimately doesn't matter what point differentials were, only that the differential was enough for the scoreboard to reflect that you had more points at the end of the game. Is it impressive to beat a team by a certain margin? Yes, of course it is. Is it impressive to hold a team to a touchdown or less? Yes, of course it is. But the underlying question to both of those is, who did you do that against?...in other words..what was the level of competition that you played to either A. beat them by a wide margin..or B. hold them to a low output...or C. beat them outright. While I would love to do all 3 of those against the very best teams, I would place more stock of just beating the very best there is, than I would putting up crazy numbers against lower competition.

That Carroll team in 2005 is regarded as one of the best ever because of who they played and beat in 6 straight games in the playoffs that season.

RD 1- Irving Mac Arthur who was 2nd place in district and their only loss was to Trinity who was the D1 state champion that season. They were 9-1 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 27 points.

RD 2- Allen who was 2nd place in district and their only losses were to Irving Mac Arthur and district champion Plano. They were 9-2 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 30 points.

RD 3- Abilene who was district champions and ranked #6 in the state. They were 12-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 52 points.

RD 4- Plano who was district champions. They were 13-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 10 points.

RD 5- Lufkin who was district champions and ranked #4 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 18 points.

RD 6- Katy who was district champions and ranked #5 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 14 points.



As you can see there were 3 losses total in all 6 teams we played and all 3 losses involved other teams on this list. One of the 3 losses was to the other state champion in 2005.And one of the 3 losses was to the team who lost to the other state champion in 2005. Derive from any of it what you want to, but this is the reason that the 2005 Carroll team is regarded as one of, if not the best ever team in the state of Texas.

[SLC]

There is no way in hell or on any other planet in any other solar system in this universe that I would ever think the '07 KATY team was the weakest team this decade or any other. (I would kindly ask the admins to move my vote to the '08 Katy team.)

Clearly I pushed the wrong button. My vote would have gone to the '08 Katy team as the weakest. However, in this poll the weakest team is still a pretty bad a$$ team. '08 Katy had great defense that would have held there own with any SLC team in this decade or any other ... IMHO.

PS ... CKE and SVHORNS have got to be kidding with their votes ... I know both you guys are very good at kidding.

Hey brother, I think the entire question with the way the poll is set up is what is confusing to people. I believe some are picking the weakest finals team, not by looking at just Katy and Carroll, but by looking at all the teams involved in the games..My guess would be that CKE and SVHorns picked not the '07 Katy team, but the '07 Pflugerville team as the weakest.

[85Roughneck]

Based fully off of the week in week out teams that Katy plays against, hey no fault of Katys, they play who is on the schedule and thats all they can do, but to be regarded as the best ever you need to have played against the best there is and Katy, just like North Shore, has not had to do that.

SLC, as usual you have a good point here ... however, if you pluck SLC and Katy out of there areas and put them out in the desert somewhere for a decade and let them play heads up for ten years straight I would suggest they are still even. The only advantage I give to Katy is that they make more with less. That is to say the Katy coaches deal with a bit less of a talent pool in the Katy area than SLC deals with in their area. Houston is so close to Katy which means the talent is more spread out. It seems to me that the talent in the SLC area is more dense which is backed up by all the success of the many schools in SLC's district and nearby districts.

IMHO ... this thread is really without warrant. We're talking about two very good programs here each with mountains of tradition. It's all good!

[85Roughneck]

Hey brother, I think the entire question with the way the poll is set up is what is confusing to people. I believe some are picking the weakest finals team, not by looking at just Katy and Carroll, but by looking at all the teams involved in the games..My guess would be that CKE and SVHorns picked not the '07 Katy team, but the '07 Pflugerville team as the weakest.

Ahhhhhhhhh ... I see ... I bet you're right. cool, thanks for the clarification.

[SLC]

I am sure that the 05 Carroll team was spectacular, all the Carroll teams are amazing. But I also feel that teams that put up gaudy point totals get a lot of attention. People notice offense. By virtue of the type of offense they play Carroll is going to put up crazy numbers on offense. I have seen and been a part of losing teams that could put up offensive numbers that beat or were at least comparable to Katy's. (Averageing 37 points per game and over 300 yards of passing per game running the spread offense of Carroll. Yeah we didn't play a lick of defense that year so frustrating. I was the O-line coach) Offensive numbers, which have been referenced on this thread in support of Carroll's case, are flashy and often times misleading. As I have tried to point out I think Katy is a better defensive football team than Carroll. Defense is not flashy and doesn't garner the attention from fans and press alike that Offense does. I think, as I am sure you and many educated observers do, defense plays as an important a role if not a more important role as offense on any great team. I am not trying to make the point that Carroll's 05 team might not have been great, please don't misunderstand me, I think Carroll has a powerful argument to make every claim that is made on this board including being the greatest team in Texas HSF history. I am simply trying to point out that there are arguments to be made, that perhaps your arguments could be wrong despite being strong arguments.


Again Mong, I am less concerned with the point total achieved or the point total allowed, and place far more stock in the one single question..Who did you play and beat?..How good were the teams that you put up crazy numbers against?...Thats the questions that have to be answered before you can be mentioned as the best ever.

[85Roughneck]

OK, so then using your criteria in your previous breakdown in getting the list you came up with it cant be labeled homerisms for that reason, I suppose just one way of making the arguement work in favor of the team you support. For me, I look at the total picture when trying to make the claim of which could be the best ever single season team and in that I look at overall strength of teams in a givin district or region or area..and base it with full results in mind. The DFW people will always claim their area and regions are tougher than that of the Houston area and with good reason, look at all the state titles and state appearances from the DFW. Its all backed up by proven results..sorry, but it is just fact that outside of Katy there is a big dropoff of teams that have dominated in this state..We play teams all season that have either played for titles, won titles or they have played teams that have done both of those.

There is always people from the Houston area that get their feelings hurt when talking about the strength of football in comparison to that thats played in North Texas...Its just facts that are rsults from the field of play that are woven over time..Maybe in 20 years we will look back and see the tide had turned and the results were more in favor of the Houston area, but at least for now, thats just not the case.


It ultimately doesn't matter what point differentials were, only that the differential was enough for the scoreboard to reflect that you had more points at the end of the game. Is it impressive to beat a team by a certain margin? Yes, of course it is. Is it impressive to hold a team to a touchdown or less? Yes, of course it is. But the underlying question to both of those is, who did you do that against?...in other words..what was the level of competition that you played to either A. beat them by a wide margin..or B. hold them to a low output...or C. beat them outright. While I would love to do all 3 of those against the very best teams, I would place more stock of just beating the very best there is, than I would putting up crazy numbers against lower competition.

That Carroll team in 2005 is regarded as one of the best ever because of who they played and beat in 6 straight games in the playoffs that season.

RD 1- Irving Mac Arthur who was 2nd place in district and their only loss was to Trinity who was the D1 state champion that season. They were 9-1 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 27 points.

RD 2- Allen who was 2nd place in district and their only losses were to Irving Mac Arthur and district champion Plano. They were 9-2 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 30 points.

RD 3- Abilene who was district champions and ranked #6 in the state. They were 12-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 52 points.

RD 4- Plano who was district champions. They were 13-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 10 points.

RD 5- Lufkin who was district champions and ranked #4 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 18 points.

RD 6- Katy who was district champions and ranked #5 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 14 points.



As you can see there were 3 losses total in all 6 teams we played and all 3 losses involved other teams on this list. One of the 3 losses was to the other state champion in 2005.And one of the 3 losses was to the team who lost to the other state champion in 2005. Derive from any of it what you want to, but this is the reason that the 2005 Carroll team is regarded as one of, if not the best ever team in the state of Texas.

nice posts ... I say posts in plural because both SLC and Mong Hu make good points.

I would love to pluck Katy (and all it's attributes as they stand and have stood) out of Katy and put it right dab smack in the middle of the DF Dub. Maaaaaaannnn, that would some crazy good football right there, huh?

[SLC]

Trojanhorse03,

I believe that every year there are 64 contenders for the state title and I believe that both SLC and Katy have proven themselves to be the best of the 64 on 4 occasions each over the past decade. You say that Carroll has beaten every state contender worthy of discussion on this board, as if the contenders that Katy beat where not worthy of discussion on this board. You are insinuating, as many have, that somehow the Carroll wins and Championships are more impressive because, lets face it Carroll plays the superior competition of Region I week in and week out. You stated further that SLC beat every state contender even Katy. I believe that I can say the same about Katy. Katy has beaten every state contender even SLC. Your signature line states respect everybody, I do not believe that you respect the competition in Region III or IV. You view it as inferior. In fact in your post you state that the elite competition that SLC faced kept them from matching Katy's stats as if Katy's competition were so far inferior to SLC's. That is demeaning and not respectful of your opponents.

Thank you for your acknowledgment of the mythic status of the Katy defense. Especially high praise coming from someone in Northern Texas:rolleyes:. I will state again my claim that Katy is a stonger defensive team year in and year out than SLC (just as I believe that SLC is a stronger offsensive team year in and year out than Katy). I will try to go about supporting my belief in another way that may be more palatable to you. If you look at programs such as Converse Judson, Katy, SLC, Permian, and Plano (All programs which have 5 or more State Championship appearances in the largest classification since 1970) and compare their defensive efforts you will find some interesting comparisons. Between those 5 programs they have appeared in the state championship game 37 times. Of those 37 appearances those five programs have held their opponents to one score or less only 7 times. Converse Judson has managed that feat only one time in nine attempts when they beat ET 52-0 in 92. Permian also has accomplished this, like Judson, only one time in nine games. Plano has done it twice and Katy has done it three times. SLC has never managed to hold a state opponent to 1 score or less in a State Championship game in 5A (I did not look up 4A records). Further if you believe, as you seem to, that Region I and II are so far superior then SLC has failed to hold the inferior contenders of Region III and IV to one score or less in five attempts while Katy has held the far superior Region I and II competition to one score or less three times. A feat unequaled by any program in Texas over the last 38 years. So yes I feel that I am making a good argument when I say Katy's defense is a step above that of SLC. Katy's defense has gotten the job done in the State Championship game more effectively than SLC's.

Your signature reads Respect Everyone (I believe if you read my posts again my praise for SLC is apparent I stated clearly that they have strong arguments for every claim they make on this board including being the best Texas HFB team ever), Fear No One (I do not. Region I plays ball just like everyone else in the State I bet those boys up their even put their pants on one leg at a time and take a dump everyday just like you and I), and Have Fun (I do think these discussions are fun so if I ever seem a bit snippy please pay no attention to it I am having fun. I love a good argument.)


Listen, I and others in the DFW have stated and will continue to state that the better competion on a weekly basis is in the DFW and North Texas. Its not disrespectful to state the obvious..For whatever reason, the Houston area and lower half of Texas has not been good overall..I dont know the reason for this, as there is very good talent down in the southern parts of Texas and without question there is outstanding coaching there as well, but the overall results backup the fact that North Texas and the DFW in particular play the best football in this state. And it is the same in the other classifications as well. I find it somewhat funny that people always want to say that your not respecting the other teams from across the state if you say that they play weaker overall competition than teams in the DFW and North Texas do. No need to get your feelings hurt about it..The tide may turn over the next 10, 20 years who knows..But you should be getting more hurt over the results, than you should someone stating the obvious.

[SLC]

nice posts ... I say posts in plural because both SLC and Mong Hu make good points.

I would love to pluck Katy (and all it's attributes as they stand and have stood) out of Katy and put it right dab smack in the middle of the DF Dub. Maaaaaaannnn, that would some crazy good football right there, huh?


Dude, if you took Katy out of Houston and put them in the DFW...We (meaning the DFW area) would never lose..We would play for every title every season..also consider that the Houston area would have nothing left at that point. Also having another great program like Katy has, in the DFW would mean that it would only make all the teams that played Katy on a weekly basis that much better and it would ultimately make Katy much better as well (not that they need that at all). I would only make one request if that were to occur and that would be that Katy and Carroll not be in the same district and that we not play each other in non-district games...that way we could still have their games only occur if the 2 met in the playoffs.

[Fleeman93]

I really don't see '07 Katy beating '07 Trinity..........just my opinion.

We have been over this 100 times but, you think Trinity 07 would have beat probably the best Katy team ever while the same Trinity team struggled to beat a Judson team that was nowhere in the same league as Katy? Makes sense.

[85Roughneck]

Dude, if you took Katy out of Houston and put them in the DFW...We (meaning the DFW area) would never lose..We would play for every title every season..also consider that the Houston area would have nothing left at that point. Also having another great program like Katy has, in the DFW would mean that it would only make all the teams that played Katy on a weekly basis that much better and it would ultimately make Katy much better as well (not that they need that at all). I would only make one request if that were to occur and that would be that Katy and Carroll not be in the same district and that we not play each other in non-district games...that way we could still have their games only occur if the 2 met in the playoffs.

AGREED !!! ... man, that would make for some great high school football. While we're fantasizing ... let's just go ahead and pluck Permian and Judson and Trinity and NothShore and Plano and ..... oh well, you know the rest better than me. Wow, that would be cool, but it's pretty cool the way it is. Thanks for all your insite and info, SLC. Same to Mong Hu and others on this site. :notworthy

[Fleeman93]

As a seasoned fan who watched on TV, had the benefit of replay...I saw a Katy team that didnt look real good...and if not for a flukey td at the end of the first half, I believe the outcome may have been different.


You can spin it however you like..Nobody and I mean nobody regards Katy as having the best single season team ever..They do for the '05 Carroll team.

You are exactly right. Katy didn't look good in the first half, played good Katy football for 3/4 of the the third quarter and shut it down the rest of the game. Oh and Katy won the game by 21. Take what you saw in the third quarter and multiply that by 4 and you have what Katy 07 was capable of in a full game of football.

[crunked9]

Are people really talking about a teams D???

Really!! Does anyone really care about that!!

NO!!!!!!!

Its all about the O!

Come on people!

Chicks dig the long ball, not the the bunt coverage!

And chicks dig the guys who score! Not a guy who grabs other guys!!

[SLC]

Let's chew some fat, shall we......?

Since 2003
Katy has 3 Championships and 4 appearances, winning back-to-back in 07 and 08.
SC has 3 Cahmpionships and 4 appearances, winning back-to-back-to-back in 04,05, and 06.

Katy has a record of 84-8 in this span, .913
SC has a record of 82-6 in this span, .931

In the play-offs:
Katy is 29-3 in this span, .910
SC is 27-3 in this span, .900
They are tied 1-1 in head-to-head championship games
Katy is 2-1 against R1 teams in the title game and 1-0 against R2 teams in this span
SC is 1-1 against R3 teams and 2-0 against R4 teams in this span
Katy has out scored it's opponents 81-59 in title games (20ppg, 15papg)
SC has out scored it's opponents 119-89 in title games (30ppg, 22papg)

Katy played a Florida team and won.
SC played a Florida team and lost.

Don't talk with your mouth full!


Cool. Good stuff there, its stating the obvious of what all of of already knew, but still good stuff none the less. Not sure why you went with '03 as your starting point though, but ok I'll play along.

Lets add in the fact that Carroll played against teams in that span with overall better records and played more ranked opponents.

Also its stating the obvious, but in the 2 head to head matchups Carroll has the point differential in those 2 games which would be +13.

And you may be 1-0 vs Florida, but Carroll played the #1 team in the nation and that team won the state title as well. Also why just include Florida in the comparison against OOS teams..Cause Carroll also beat Evangel Christian Academy in 2006.

I never talk with my mouth full after chewing on fat, mostly because I cant stand the fat, I go straight for the prime cut...less fat to deal with.

[E-Vol-ution]

Yep...makes sense. We're talking different style ball clubs, and that Trinity team had very good run defense. I also think that Trinity team would have beaten the '07 SLC team.
You say this has been gone over 100 times as if it's tiring.......we're talking thousands of times with the SLC/ Katy stuff. You guys need to stop sniffing yourselves so much. There were other champions and you didn't beat them that year to say you were the best. How about a little humble pie?
We have been over this 100 times but, you think Trinity 07 would have beat probably the best Katy team ever while the same Trinity team struggled to beat a Judson team that was nowhere in the same league as Katy? Makes sense.

[Fleeman93]

Yep...makes sense. We're talking different style ball clubs, and that Trinity team had very good run defense. I also think that Trinity team would have beaten the '07 SLC team.
You say this has been gone over 100 times as if it's tiring.......we're talking thousands of times with the SLC/ Katy stuff. You guys need to stop sniffing yourselves so much. There were other champions and you didn't beat them that year to say you were the best. How about a little humble pie?

Correct me if I am wrong but you were the one, in this thread, that said Trinity 07 could beat Katy 07 with nothing to back it up but an unimpressive effort against a good Judson team. I have no problem opening the Katy 07 Vs Trinity 07 can of worms.

[E-Vol-ution]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Trinity '07 was nationally ranked higher than either of those teams. Dean was a beast, but Trinity had a defense well suited for that type team. SLC was good but gave up points and would have lost in a battle of the trenches. All anyone can do in fact is speculate as none of these fine teams played each other...and you really cannot detract from Judson.........they were an experienced team when it came to being so deep in contention that time of year. Trinity was not and still won with bright eyes.................(as in new to championship games).
I'm not detracting from those Katy and SLC teams.......(before you tender guys get offended). We are all just speculating. Some much more than others with pomp as the motivating factor.
Correct me if I am wrong but you were the one, in this thread, that said Trinity 07 could beat Katy 07 with nothing to back it up but an unimpressive effort against a good Judson team. I have no problem opening the Katy 07 Vs Trinity 07 can of worms.

[62tiger]

This is OFFICIALLY the stupidest thread in the history of threads!

[slcdragonfan]

Regarding defense:

Carroll in those years would get WAAAYYY ahead of teams. That meant in trash time they were able to score points, get yards, etc. that otherwise would not have been scored or totalled. So no, I don't concede even the best defense theory.:D

[SLC]

This is OFFICIALLY the stupidest thread in the history of threads!


Hmmmm, methinks you never read a d-trian thread.

[Dynastybegan86]

Cool. Good stuff there, its stating the obvious of what all of of already knew, but still good stuff none the less. Not sure why you went with '03 as your starting point though, but ok I'll play along. This was the first year the two teams played each other, it makes since to begin here.

Lets add in the fact that Carroll played against teams in that span with overall better records and played more ranked opponents. How many more?
Also its stating the obvious, but in the 2 head to head matchups Carroll has the point differential in those 2 games which would be +13. True, but SC is still 1-1 against Katy. So what?
And you may be 1-0 vs Florida, but Carroll played the #1 team in the nation and that team won the state title as well. Also why just include Florida in the comparison against OOS teams..Cause Carroll also beat Evangel Christian Academy in 2006. #1 in the nation? Pft! Mythical poll!
I never talk with my mouth full after chewing on fat, mostly because I cant stand the fat, I go straight for the prime cut...less fat to deal with. We agree on something!!

Bolded above ^

Thanks for "playing along"

[62tiger]

Hmmmm, methinks you never read a d-trian thread.


Good point!

[SLC]

Bolded above ^

Thanks for "playing along"


Since 2003 Katy has played 6 ranked opponents and has a record of 3-3.

Carroll has played 11 ranked opponents and has a record of 9-2.

[Mong Hu]

Are people really talking about a teams D???

Really!! Does anyone really care about that!!

NO!!!!!!!

Its all about the O!

Come on people!

Chicks dig the long ball, not the the bunt coverage!

And chicks dig the guys who score! Not a guy who grabs other guys!!

Thanks for proving my point crunked.:D

[Dynastybegan86]

Since 2003 Katy has played 6 ranked opponents and has a record of 3-3.

Carroll has played 11 ranked opponents and has a record of 9-2.

KT2000 needs to chime in here, I think you're wrong. Katy played GPNS, FMM, Cy-Bay, Cinco, SV, and Wylie in 2008, all ranked. TWHS was ranked later in the year, not when we played them. Without a hurricane, we would have played BWB, also ranked, means nothing because we didn't play but.... That's just 2008.

[SLC]

KT2000 needs to chime in here, I think you're wrong. Katy played GPNS, FMM, Cy-Bay, Cinco, SV, and Wylie in 2008, all ranked. TWHS was ranked later in the year, not when we played them. Without a hurricane, we would have played BWB, also ranked, means nothing because we didn't play but.... That's just 2008.



When using rankings, I use the only fair way to do it and thats by using the final AP polls....the reason I say "fair" is because when we are comparing a team from say 2002 or 1995 then of course sites such as this one dont have those rankings for someone to look at. The final AP polls can be looked at for every season dating back to 1957. It wouldnt make since to use this sites polls for this season, but use another for 2003. If I were comparing 2 teams just from this season then I could use this site, so I use the AP as that is the only consistant way to do it. In the case of an OOS opponent I use the AP poll from that teams state. Also it matters not what a team was ranked at the time you played them, but what they finished at. So for example when you played Marcus they were ranked, but were not ranked to end the season, then that amounts to you not playing a ranked Marcus team. And the same is applied when playing an unranked opponent, but they finish the season ranked, then that amounts to you playing a ranked opponent.

And just so you know North Shore and The Woodlands were included in your losses and Cy Bay was included in your wins, as all 3 of those teams were in the final AP polls The others you list were not in the AP poll. Keep in mind that the AP only does a top 10 poll and sites like this one have a top 25 poll...That would effect the numbers for Katy, but it would also effect them for Carroll as well.

[Fleeman93]

When using rankings, I use the only fair way to do it and thats by using the final AP polls....the reason I say "fair" is because when we are comparing a team from say 2002 or 1995 then of course sites such as this one dont have those rankings for someone to look at. The final AP polls can be looked at for every season dating back to 1957. It wouldnt make since to use this sites polls for this season, but use another for 2003. If I were comparing 2 teams just from this season then I could use this site, so I use the AP as that is the only consistant way to do it. In the case of an OOS opponent I use the AP poll from that teams state. Also it matters not what a team was ranked at the time you played them, but what they finished at. So for example when you played Marcus they were ranked, but were not ranked to end the season, then that amounts to you not playing a ranked Marcus team. And the same is applied when playing an unranked opponent, but they finish the season ranked, then that amounts to you playing a ranked opponent.

And just so you know North Shore and The Woodlands were included in your losses and Cy Bay was included in your wins, as all 3 of those teams were in the final AP polls The others you list were not in the AP poll. Keep in mind that the AP only does a top 10 poll and sites like this one have a top 25 poll...That would effect the numbers for Katy, but it would also effect them for Carroll as well.

...and all for not if Carroll can't win a championship in 09 and Katy can. As it stands now Carroll is in the lead and Katy has nothing to lose. I like Katy's chances better than Carroll's, do you?

[SLC]

...and all for not if Carroll can't win a championship in 09 and Katy can. As it stands now Carroll is in the lead and Katy has nothing to lose. I like Katy's chances better than Carroll's, do you?


As far as a title next season, I like Katy's chances a little better than I do Carroll's. I need to see the first few games next season, before I can truly gauge if Carroll is a title contender..So as it stands right now, I feel more confident in Katy than I do in Carroll.

[ktCarl]

and thank you KatyTigerDad0407 for bringing us together like Hamas and Israel.:rolleyes:

[SLC]

and thank you KatyTigerDad0407 for bringing us together like Hamas and Israel.:rolleyes:



Nobodys divided..at least anymore than we already were. We are each fans of our teams and its fine to debate each of our points we make, its what makes a forum a forum. We wont always agree, but we can still all be friends at the end of the day. This isn't the first thread that has gotten heated at times when discussing Carroll and Katy and it wont be the last.


Its disscussions like this one and the others that gets me through the off season..After tomorrow there is no more football and I'd just be milling around the house until Nascar kicks off in a few weeks anyway. We fans enjoy the healthy banter and I know we are all for our teams and the cool thing is there are 200 teams fans that would love to be able to have these same debates about their teams..What an honor it is for Carroll and Katy fans to be in position to debate such amazing results in such a football history rich state.

[Mong Hu]

Nobodys divided..at least anymore than we already were. We are each fans of our teams and its fine to debate each of our points we make, its what makes a forum a forum. We wont always agree, but we can still all be friends at the end of the day. This isn't the first thread that has gotten heated at times when discussing Carroll and Katy and it wont be the last.


Its disscussions like this one and the others that gets me through the off season..After tomorrow there is no more football and I'd just be milling around the house until Nascar kicks off in a few weeks anyway. We fans enjoy the healthy banter and I know we are all for our teams and the cool thing is there are 200 teams fans that would love to be able to have these same debates about their teams..What an honor it is for Carroll and Katy fans to be in position to debate such amazing results in such a football history rich state.


I 100% agree. Even if I seem short or ill tempered in a response I am really enjoying myself and am enjoying reading what other guys have to say. Almost everything that gets brought up in these threads is worth considering and adds to the argument. Some posts are more thought provoking and well thought out than others but I find it invigorating that others enjoy thinking and talking about football as much as I do. My wife just looked over my shoulder and called me sad and obsessed. Does anybody else feel that misunderstood??????

[SLC]

I 100% agree. Even if I seem short or ill tempered in a response I am really enjoying myself and am enjoying reading what other guys have to say. Almost everything that gets brought up in these threads is worth considering and adds to the argument. Some posts are more thought provoking and well thought out than others but I find it invigorating that others enjoy thinking and talking about football as much as I do. My wife just looked over my shoulder and called me sad and obsessed. Does anybody else feel that misunderstood??????

Yes sir, I know exactly what your talking about as my wife says some of the same things at times. She also understands how "into" high school and college football I am though and has long since accepted the love (and obsession) I have for the game of football. We will have been married 17 years on Valentines day and it will be 18 years since weve been together. Its very awesome to have a wife who is so understanding and a family that is for that matter. She is into her things as well, I am just as understanding to her. It also helps that she likes football as well, though she is not as crazed as I am. She once told me a few years ago that it all made sense when she realized that "fan" was short for "fanatic". She said that the definition of fan should be required to have a picture of me next to it.:D....Man I love that lady.

[TrojanHorse03]

KT2000 needs to chime in here, I think you're wrong. Katy played GPNS, FMM, Cy-Bay, Cinco, SV, and Wylie in 2008, all ranked. TWHS was ranked later in the year, not when we played them. Without a hurricane, we would have played BWB, also ranked, means nothing because we didn't play but.... That's just 2008.

No doubt IMO Katy's regular season schedule was much better this year, one of the best in the state. However in regards to 2008, for non-Katy fans it's not possible to give credit for the schedule while ignoring the results against the 3 best teams (North Shore, TWHS, and Cinco).

[TrojanHorse03]

Correct me if I am wrong but you were the one, in this thread, that said Trinity 07 could beat Katy 07 with nothing to back it up but an unimpressive effort against a good Judson team. I have no problem opening the Katy 07 Vs Trinity 07 can of worms.

Oh right we get it you're one of those people that think becuase Katy beat Wylie they beat Allen who(beat Hightower, RRSP, Permian, Trinity, Plano, Wylie) in '08. Because Katy beat Pflugerville in '07 they beat Trinity(who beat Permian, Plano, Arlington Bowie, and Judson) in '07 and Southlake 2005(who beat Katy, Lufkin, Plano, Abilene, and Allen) :rolleyes:. Don't worry we get the pattern.

[62tiger]

No doubt IMO Katy's regular season schedule was much better this year, one of the best in the state. However in regards to 2008, for non-Katy fans it's not possible to give credit for the schedule while ignoring the results against the 3 best teams (North Shore, TWHS, and Cinco).

Hmmmmmm.........guess the Cardinals should just go home.......Regular season was kind of like Katy's........Why win and have everyone say they are not deserving........Cuz it is afterall, all about the early season and not the postseason.:rolleyes:

[Fleeman93]

No doubt IMO Katy's regular season schedule was much better this year, one of the best in the state. However in regards to 2008, for non-Katy fans it's not possible to give credit for the schedule while ignoring the results against the 3 best teams (North Shore, TWHS, and Cinco).

I'll take a 3 loss regular season with a state championship over no loss regular season, a #1 national ranking going into the playoffs, and no state championship. It isn't how you start but rather how you finish. Which team do you think had a more disappointing 08' season, the 13-1 team or the 13-3 team? No one seems to want to address the fact that this was a VERY VERY young Katy team this past season and the early losses against some very good teams were not unexpected (how Katy lost to the Woodlands was unexpected but the loss wasn't) and the loss to Cinco was to their best football team EVER. Sure is a nice trophy.

[Fleeman93]

Oh right we get it you're one of those people that think becuase Katy beat Wylie they beat Allen who(beat Hightower, RRSP, Permian, Trinity, Plano, Wylie) in '08. Because Katy beat Pflugerville in '07 they beat Trinity(who beat Permian, Plano, Arlington Bowie, and Judson) in '07 and Southlake 2005(who beat Katy, Lufkin, Plano, Abilene, and Allen) :rolleyes:. Don't worry we get the pattern.

Not sure what that rant was about but in 07 it was pretty simple. Katy was a much much better football team than Judson and Trinity struggled to beat Judson. That is looking at the last two games of the season with all the cards on the table. Explain to me how Trinity could only barely beat Judson but they would have beat a much better Katy team for sure. Save the crap about Trinity's offensive and defensive lines dominating Katy because Trinity's offensive and defensive lines didn't dominate Judson so I doubt they would have had much more success against better Katy units. I'll wait for logical response from you but I'm sure I won't get it.

[TrojanHorse03]

I'll take a 3 loss regular season with a state championship over no loss regular season, a #1 national ranking going into the playoffs, and no state championship.

I would take it too. I just wouldn't take it over a 1 loss state championship team who beat much better competition(Allen).

[TrojanHorse03]

Not sure what that rant was about but in 07 it was pretty simple. Katy was a much much better football team than Judson and Trinity struggled to beat Judson. That is looking at the last two games of the season with all the cards on the table. Explain to me how Trinity could only barely beat Judson but they would have beat a much better Katy team for sure. Save the crap about Trinity's offensive and defensive lines dominating Katy because Trinity's offensive and defensive lines didn't dominate Judson so I doubt they would have had much more success against better Katy units. I'll wait for logical response from you but I'm sure I won't get it.

It really doesn't matter the manner Trinity beat Judson, on that evening they did enough to win the championship. Winning by 3 against a program like Judson in San Antonio doesn't distract people from Trinity beating them in addition to Plano Permian, and Arlington Bowie on a much tougher road to a championship than Katy.

[TrojanHorse03]

Trojanhorse03,

I believe that every year there are 64 contenders for the state title and I believe that both SLC and Katy have proven themselves to be the best of the 64 on 4 occasions each over the past decade. You say that Carroll has beaten every state contender worthy of discussion on this board, as if the contenders that Katy beat where not worthy of discussion on this board. You are insinuating, as many have, that somehow the Carroll wins and Championships are more impressive because, lets face it Carroll plays the superior competition of Region I week in and week out. You stated further that SLC beat every state contender even Katy. I believe that I can say the same about Katy. Katy has beaten every state contender even SLC. Your signature line states respect everybody, I do not believe that you respect the competition in Region III or IV. You view it as inferior. In fact in your post you state that the elite competition that SLC faced kept them from matching Katy's stats as if Katy's competition were so far inferior to SLC's. That is demeaning and not respectful of your opponents.When it comes to how the schedules of the 2002, 2004-2006 Southlake teams schedules compare with 00, 07 Katy teams it's not so much a question of region, it's a question of sanity. Any sane, reasonable person would consider it tougher to play and beat Katy, Lufkin, SV, Trinity, Abilene, Allen, Plano, Permian than who Katy played in '00 and '07. FYI Lufkin is region 2, SV region 4, and Katy region 3;).

Thank you for your acknowledgment of the mythic status of the Katy defense. Especially high praise coming from someone in Northern Texas:rolleyes:. I will state again my claim that Katy is a stonger defensive team year in and year out than SLC (just as I believe that SLC is a stronger offsensive team year in and year out than Katy). I will try to go about supporting my belief in another way that may be more palatable to you. If you look at programs such as Converse Judson, Katy, SLC, Permian, and Plano (All programs which have 5 or more State Championship appearances in the largest classification since 1970) and compare their defensive efforts you will find some interesting comparisons. Between those 5 programs they have appeared in the state championship game 37 times. Of those 37 appearances those five programs have held their opponents to one score or less only 7 times. Converse Judson has managed that feat only one time in nine attempts when they beat ET 52-0 in 92. Permian also has accomplished this, like Judson, only one time in nine games. Plano has done it twice and Katy has done it three times. SLC has never managed to hold a state opponent to 1 score or less in a State Championship game in 5A (I did not look up 4A records). Further if you believe, as you seem to, that Region I and II are so far superior then SLC has failed to hold the inferior contenders of Region III and IV to one score or less in five attempts while Katy has held the far superior Region I and II competition to one score or less three times. A feat unequaled by any program in Texas over the last 38 years. So yes I feel that I am making a good argument when I say Katy's defense is a step above that of SLC. Katy's defense has gotten the job done in the State Championship game more effectively than SLC's. Plain in simple I as well I believe any non Katy and non Carroll fan consider it much more impressive defensivly to slow down the powerhouses Carroll did on the way to the championship in 2002, 2004-2006 than the comp Katy did in '00, '07.

Your signature reads Respect Everyone (I believe if you read my posts again my praise for SLC is apparent I stated clearly that they have strong arguments for every claim they make on this board including being the best Texas HFB team ever), Fear No One (I do not. Region I plays ball just like everyone else in the State I bet those boys up their even put their pants on one leg at a time and take a dump everyday just like you and I), and Have Fun (I do think these discussions are fun so if I ever seem a bit snippy please pay no attention to it I am having fun. I love a good argument.)And if you read my posts you would know specifically that I respect Katy, it's fans, and its championship success. I'm just providing the flaw in you suggesting what Katy did defensively against much weaker competition in '00, '07 was more impressive than what Southlake did in 2002, 2004-2006 or that those Southlake teams are regarded more than those Katy teams because of offensive numbers.

Responses in bold.

[Fleeman93]

I would take it too. I just wouldn't take it over a 1 loss state championship team who beat much better competition(Allen).

You can argue much better competition but both teams only had one opponent in common. Allen snuck by Wylie and Katy didn't so much. How do you really know the competition was all that much better? Is it simply because it was DFW competition?

[Fleeman93]

It really doesn't matter the manner Trinity beat Judson, on that evening they did enough to win the championship. Winning by 3 against a program like Judson in San Antonio doesn't distract people from Trinity beating them in addition to Plano Permian, and Arlington Bowie on a much tougher road to a championship than Katy.

Have no problem debating Trinity's road to state again if you want. Really wasn't as strong as you would like to think.

[E-Vol-ution]

Because Trinity had enough left to beat that Judson team after banging heads with the likes of Permian and Arlington Bowie. You had a much lighter load to carry.....there is no comparison in the competition faced.
You'll never admit that being a classic homer....but everybody else knows.
Did Katy beat that same Judson team for you to be near objective? Where are your debate points?Not sure what that rant was about but in 07 it was pretty simple. Katy was a much much better football team than Judson and Trinity struggled to beat Judson. That is looking at the last two games of the season with all the cards on the table. Explain to me how Trinity could only barely beat Judson but they would have beat a much better Katy team for sure. Save the crap about Trinity's offensive and defensive lines dominating Katy because Trinity's offensive and defensive lines didn't dominate Judson so I doubt they would have had much more success against better Katy units. I'll wait for logical response from you but I'm sure I won't get it.

[E-Vol-ution]

Wylie laid an egg in that game...and didn't have a linebacker (his own fault). Again...did you beat Hightower, Stoney Point (beasts)? Use a better debate point than that........different QB's for Allen also.
You can argue much better competition but both teams only had one opponent in common. Allen snuck by Wylie and Katy didn't so much. How do you really know the competition was all that much better? Is it simply because it was DFW competition?

[Fleeman93]

Because Trinity had enough left to beat that Judson team after banging heads with the likes of Permian and Arlington Bowie. You had a much lighter load to carry.....there is no comparison in the competition faced.
You'll never admit that being a classic homer....but everybody else knows.
Did Katy beat that same Judson team for you to be near objective? Where are your debate points?

For starters, give me a list of Arlington Bowie's quality wins in 07 (oopsie).

[Fleeman93]

Wylie laid an egg in that game...and didn't have a linebacker (his own fault). Again...did you beat Hightower, Stoney Point (beasts)? Use a better debate point than that........different QB's for Allen also.

LB's play on defense so most likely he wouldn't have helped what Katy did to Wylie's offense.

[SLC93]

You can argue much better competition but both teams only had one opponent in common. Allen snuck by Wylie and Katy didn't so much. How do you really know the competition was all that much better? Is it simply because it was DFW competition?


I got little interest in jumping in the middle of this one. Seems like we debated at length about this last offseason. Anyway, I highlighted the statement I did because I have to seek some clarity. Earlier this week there were several other Katy posters who made reference to a dominating victory
over Wylie. Now, yours isn't so bold but your implication is somewhat clear. I have to ask, again, since when is a 17-3 win dominating, by any measure?

[SLC93]

Have no problem debating Trinity's road to state again if you want. Really wasn't as strong as you would like to think.

Ummmmmmmm....wow. Really?

[farmerfan]

Ummmmmmmm....wow. Really?

If there's one thing Flee is its consistent.

[SLC]

If there's one thing Flee is its consistent.


Consitantly what????

[farmerfan]

Consitantly what????

A Trinity hater?
DFW denier
Houston Homer
Great Katy fan.
Many things.
I just say consistently argumentative ;)

[Mong Hu]

I suppose just one way of making the arguement work in favor of the team you support. For me, I look at the total picture when trying to make the claim of which could be the best ever single season team

RD 1- Irving Mac Arthur who was 2nd place in district and their only loss was to Trinity who was the D1 state champion that season. They were 9-1 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 27 points.

RD 2- Allen who was 2nd place in district and their only losses were to Irving Mac Arthur and district champion Plano. They were 9-2 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 30 points.

RD 3- Abilene who was district champions and ranked #6 in the state. They were 12-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 52 points.

RD 4- Plano who was district champions. They were 13-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 10 points.

RD 5- Lufkin who was district champions and ranked #4 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 18 points.

RD 6- Katy who was district champions and ranked #5 in the state. They were 14-0 entering the game with Carroll. Carroll beat them by 14 points.

As you can see there were 3 losses total in all 6 teams we played and all 3 losses involved other teams on this list. One of the 3 losses was to the other state champion in 2005.And one of the 3 losses was to the team who lost to the other state champion in 2005. Derive from any of it what you want to, but this is the reason that the 2005 Carroll team is regarded as one of, if not the best ever team in the state of Texas.

I like the above stated numbers. If we were to rank all of the teams in this manner and determine strength of schedule for each in a like manner or if we were to have access to SOS for each that someone else compiled then I think you have a meaningful comparison and can rank the teams in question, the 10 finals teams, in an objective way.

I would like to point out at this juncture my reservations about SOS measurements. While ranking by SOS is objective in that you just look at the number and place the teams in order, determining SOS is not objective. You and I have discussed this before on other threads. It seams that different organizations determine SOS differently. They obviously use different criteria in determing SOS. The choosing of which criteria best measures SOS is subjective no mater what calpreps.com and Ned Freeman say on their website. For this reason I do not think that you can place all your evaluation on SOS arguments any more than you can on margin of victory. I do think both should be included in a more complete evaluation of the the strengths of each team. If you, or anyone else reading this thread, would care to do the leg work on that I think it would certainly add to the discussion.

I would also like to state that I wasn't trying to make any numbers work for my team when I started looking at the numbers. I was reading WOS's thread "100 youngest 5A programs" when I noticed point totals at the bottoms of each season. I wondered how the ratios of points for and against compare with each of the teams in question. I did a little simple spread sheet and reported the results here. I did not know what the results would be when I began my comparison. I asked a question and got an answer which apparently many think is not relevant to answering the question at hand on this thread. I respectfully disagree. I think the information I compiled is relevant in determining which of the 10 teams is the strongest and also the weakest which is of course the primary question being discussed on this thread. If Katy 2.7 is a strong team worthy of being considered with the top teams of the group and they do as you claim play weaker competition then it would be reasonable to hypothesize that they should have a more favorable point for to points against ratio. The questions is how much should that ratio differ with a team that plays a stronger SOS. In other words if Carroll where to play the same SOS what would their ration look like and the same for Katy.

[SLC]

I like the above stated numbers. If we were to rank all of the teams in this manner and determine strength of schedule for each in a like manner or if we were to have access to SOS for each that someone else compiled then I think you have a meaningful comparison and can rank the teams in question, the 10 finals teams, in an objective way.

I would like to point out at this juncture my reservations about SOS measurements. While ranking by SOS is objective in that you just look at the number and place the teams in order, determining SOS is not objective. You and I have discussed this before on other threads. It seams that different organizations determine SOS differently. They obviously use different criteria in determing SOS. The choosing of which criteria best measures SOS is subjective no mater what calpreps.com and Ned Freeman say on their website. For this reason I do not think that you can place all your evaluation on SOS arguments any more than you can on margin of victory. I do think both should be included in a more complete evaluation of the the strengths of each team. If you, or anyone else reading this thread, would care to do the leg work on that I think it would certainly add to the discussion.

I would also like to state that I wasn't trying to make any numbers work for my team when I started looking at the numbers. I was reading WOS's thread "Largest Classifications Results" when I noticed point totals at the bottoms of each season. I wondered how the ratios of points for and against compare with each of the teams in question. I did a little simple spread sheet and reported the results here. I did not know what the results would be when I began my comparison. I asked a question and got an answer which apparently many think is not relevant to answering the question at hand on this thread. I respectfully disagree. I think the information I compiled is relevant in determining which of the 10 teams is the strongest and also the weakest which is of course the primary question being discussed on this thread. If Katy 2.7 is a strong team worthy of being considered with the top teams of the group and they do as you claim play weaker competition then it would be reasonable to hypothesize that they should have a more favorable point for to points against ratio. The questions is how much should that ratio differ with a team that plays a stronger SOS. In other words if Carroll where to play the same SOS what would their ration look like and the same for Katy.


Thats all true and its the reason most in the DFW always point out that the overall tougher road is in the metroplex. It just makes sense and I think you would agree that if you play a team with a 5-5 record, your point totals scored and given up are likely to be much better than if your playing against a team with a record of 8-2 or 7-3. the only times that might not be the case is if you are playing a rival team on their field or you are playing without usual starters due to injuries. Outside of that it just stands to reason that when playing lesser competition you will put up better for/against point totals.

I found this list that WOS posted awile back and it shows where that historic run Carroll had in 2005 stands in relation to other playoff runs dating back to 1951. Keeping in mind that Austin Reagan only played 4 playoff games in 1967 and Carroll had to play 6. The next closest team to play 6 games is at 19 on the list.

http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/playoffs/playoffsos.gif

[PirateFan]

definately not wylie, defensive player of the year nikkta whitlock was a factor, so to say the 17 points katy got was the weakest is weak

[Mong Hu]

Thats all true and its the reason most in the DFW always point out that the overall tougher road is in the metroplex. It just makes sense and I think you would agree that if you play a team with a 5-5 record, your point totals scored and given up are likely to be much better than if your playing against a team with a record of 8-2 or 7-3. the only times that might not be the case is if you are playing a rival team on their field or you are playing without usual starters due to injuries. Outside of that it just stands to reason that when playing lesser competition you will put up better for/against point totals.

I found this list that WOS posted awile back and it shows where that historic run Carroll had in 2005 stands in relation to other playoff runs dating back to 1951. Keeping in mind that Austin Reagan only played 4 playoff games in 1967 and Carroll had to play 6. The next closest team to play 6 games is at 19 on the list.


SLC,

Awesome information. I was able to add in K 2.8's numbers from the bracket this year. I didn't see SLC 03 and K 05 on the list. What was the title of that thread? Maybe I'll just look up all threads by WOS. Did he have more info or was that the complete list from the thread? I have added that info to my spread sheet. I did not account for or weight in any way the SOS I simply assigned 1 pt for best SOS 2 for second best and so on. Weighting them would be more depth than I can go into at 1:30 am. Maybe at a later date. Anyway SLC 03 and K 05 each got a 10 because I do not have their data. The results look something like this:

K 00 5 pts (2 margin; 3 SOS)
S 05 6 pts (5 margin; 1 SOS)
K 07 6 pts (1 margin; 5 SOS)
S 02 8 pts
S 06 9 pts
S 04 11 pts
K 08 14 pts
K 03 16 pts
K 05 16 pts (6 margin; 10 SOS)
S 03 20 pts (10 margin; 10 SOS)

I realize a more perfect system would have more than 2 criteria. I would like at least 5 to be more accurate and would also take into account how big the margin and how tough the schedule but this is a simple way to look at it for the purposes of fans like us having a discussion about this topic. While I think that the top could still have some shaking out to do with additional criteria I am more convinced that the bottom would remain fairly static. I think the SLC 03 team could at best hope for a 9 SOS giving it 19 pts and still at the bottom of the list. The three KT's at the bottom might shuffle a little but I think that is probably where they stay even with additional criteria (I am not sure what those criteria might be but if I figure that out I will post it). All this to say that after adding the criteria of SOS into the mix I would still say SLC 03 at the bottom of the 10. I still think that every team up there is amazing which is why I think this thread is a little on the weird side but I have still enjoyed it.

[Mong Hu]

A Trinity hater?
I just say consistently argumentative ;)

Is there anyone on this board that is not consistently argumentative? I think it is the nature of fans. That description certainly fits me.

[Mong Hu]

Thank you for your acknowledgment of the mythic status of the Katy defense. Especially high praise coming from someone in Northern Texas. I will state again my claim that Katy is a stonger defensive team year in and year out than SLC (just as I believe that SLC is a stronger offsensive team year in and year out than Katy). I will try to go about supporting my belief in another way that may be more palatable to you. If you look at programs such as Converse Judson, Katy, SLC, Permian, and Plano (All programs which have 5 or more State Championship appearances in the largest classification since 1970) and compare their defensive efforts you will find some interesting comparisons. Between those 5 programs they have appeared in the state championship game 37 times. Of those 37 appearances those five programs have held their opponents to one score or less only 7 times. Converse Judson has managed that feat only one time in nine attempts when they beat ET 52-0 in 92. Permian also has accomplished this, like Judson, only one time in nine games. Plano has done it twice and Katy has done it three times. SLC has never managed to hold a state opponent to 1 score or less in a State Championship game in 5A (I did not look up 4A records). Further if you believe, as you seem to, that Region I and II are so far superior then SLC has failed to hold the inferior contenders of Region III and IV to one score or less in five attempts while Katy has held the far superior Region I and II competition to one score or less three times. A feat unequaled by any program in Texas over the last 38 years. So yes I feel that I am making a good argument when I say Katy's defense is a step above that of SLC. Katy's defense has gotten the job done in the State Championship game more effectively than SLC's. Plain in simple I as well I believe any non Katy and non Carroll fan consider it much more impressive defensivly to slow down the powerhouses Carroll did on the way to the championship in 2002, 2004-2006 than the comp Katy did in '00, '07.

Responses in bold.


Thanks for the response. I am not sure we are arguing the same point here. My point was that Katy is a better defensive team year in and year out not that one particular year was better for Katy than another particular SLC year. I am not arguing that SLC 2.5's defense was worse than KT 2.3's defense. I am arguing that if you look at the program Katy's program is more accomplished on the defensive side of the ball and SLC is more accomplished on the Offensive side of the ball. Given that I think that if you are going to compare the two you need to take into account both teams strengths and both teams weakness and see how far apart the strengths and weaknesses are (thus the margin comparison).

Think about what you just said for a minute. I have stated that Katy's Defense has proven itself against teams in the State Championship game repeatedly and more frequently than any other program in Texas for the past thirty eight years. You have asserted that the Carroll defense is superior because the competition they faced on the way to the State Championship game was superior to Katy's. So you are saying that the teams that SLC faced on the way to the State championship game trump the competition Katy has faced in the state championship games. So the reason Katy put up those numbers in the State Championship games was because those years their opponents in the Championship game (who by the way came from Regions I and II) was weaker than many of the teams SLC faced on the way to the State Championship game. And you insinuate than I am insane or detached from reality?

[SLC]

SLC,

Awesome information. I was able to add in K 2.8's numbers from the bracket this year. I didn't see SLC 03 and K 05 on the list. What was the title of that thread? Maybe I'll just look up all threads by WOS. Did he have more info or was that the complete list from the thread? I have added that info to my spread sheet. I did not account for or weight in any way the SOS I simply assigned 1 pt for best SOS 2 for second best and so on. Weighting them would be more depth than I can go into at 1:30 am. Maybe at a later date. Anyway SLC 03 and K 05 each got a 10 because I do not have their data. The results look something like this:

K 00 5 pts (2 margin; 3 SOS)
S 05 6 pts (5 margin; 1 SOS)
K 07 6 pts (1 margin; 5 SOS)
S 02 8 pts
S 06 9 pts
S 04 11 pts
K 08 14 pts
K 03 16 pts
K 05 16 pts (6 margin; 10 SOS)
S 03 20 pts (10 margin; 10 SOS)

I realize a more perfect system would have more than 2 criteria. I would like at least 5 to be more accurate and would also take into account how big the margin and how tough the schedule but this is a simple way to look at it for the purposes of fans like us having a discussion about this topic. While I think that the top could still have some shaking out to do with additional criteria I am more convinced that the bottom would remain fairly static. I think the SLC 03 team could at best hope for a 9 SOS giving it 19 pts and still at the bottom of the list. The three KT's at the bottom might shuffle a little but I think that is probably where they stay even with additional criteria (I am not sure what those criteria might be but if I figure that out I will post it). All this to say that after adding the criteria of SOS into the mix I would still say SLC 03 at the bottom of the 10. I still think that every team up there is amazing which is why I think this thread is a little on the weird side but I have still enjoyed it.



You wont find the '03 Carroll team or the '05 Katy team on that list because that list only includes teams who won the title, not title losers.

Also its just my opinion but I think you're selling the point spread thing a little high, just based on who those numbers were put up against. I believe (as most do) that its all relative to who you are playing. I think if I were to create a number ranking in terms of margin of victory, it would have to considered heavily in relation to the SOS rather then seperate the 2..I dont know how this could be done, but certainly you are giving a higher number in SOS to the '00 Katy team and the lower margin to the '05 Carroll team just based off the 10 teams they had in the finals...But when looking at the list I posted that WOS created that '00 Katy team is 45th on the list and 11% behind that '05 Carroll team that without question played the tougher opponents. Either you're giving the '00 Katy team to much credit for their SOS or not giving the '05 Carroll team enough credit for the margin of victory they had against the better SOS.

Like I said, its all in relation to who you played to get the margins of victory...its easy to put those wide margins up against the lesser opponents.

[E-Vol-ution]

For starters....how about Katy's?
For starters, give me a list of Arlington Bowie's quality wins in 08.

[Fleeman93]

I got little interest in jumping in the middle of this one. Seems like we debated at length about this last offseason. Anyway, I highlighted the statement I did because I have to seek some clarity. Earlier this week there were several other Katy posters who made reference to a dominating victory
over Wylie. Now, yours isn't so bold but your implication is somewhat clear. I have to ask, again, since when is a 17-3 win dominating, by any measure?


I would say that 17-3 is dominating when the team that had 3 was averaging what 38 points a game in the playoffs (not sure and not worth my time to verify). Maybe WOS can tells but I would guess you could count on two hands how many times a team has been held to 3 or less since the two division split.

[Fleeman93]

Ummmmmmmm....wow. Really?

Yes really. Go and look up how many wins both Plano and Bowie (two of Trinity's big notches in the belt) had against teams with winning records and then get back to me. You can certainly argue Permian but were they really that much better than Trinity early or was Trinity really that much better than them late.

[Fleeman93]

If there's one thing Flee is its consistent.


I just feel that the facts are there so it is an easy debate. Also, the Carroll and Katy thing is getting a little tired at this point.

[E-Vol-ution]

Look at the win/loss records of the opponents faced in the playoffs and all were better than the opponents of Katy. Yes, Katy was good.....no they didn't play the best teams....by far.
Yes really. Go and look up how many wins both Plano and Bowie (two of Trinity's big notches in the belt) had against teams with winning records and then get back to me. You can certainly argue Permian but were they really that much better than Trinity early or was Trinity really that much better than them late.

[Fleeman93]

A Trinity hater? Only Texas HS teams that I hate are the ones that play dirty.
DFW denier I have never denied DFW anything. Right now there is collectively better teams up there. Last year I don't think it was as skewed but still better.
Houston Homer I suppose. Houston is like Katy's little brother so I have to stick up for them.
Great Katy fan. Thank you.
Many things. Don't think consistency is a bad thing.
I just say consistently argumentative ;) I guess I could go chat it up in ghey threads but I wouldn't have much to offer.



..

[Fleeman93]

For starters....how about Katy's?

I put 08 in the question and obviously it should have been 07. In 07 Katy played and beat:


Pflugerville 28-7 - Dominated the best team from either R1/R2 D2
San Antonio Madison 66-21 - Dominated the best team from R4 D2 who Judson barely snuck by 20-17
Fort Bend Clements 42-0 - Absolute domination of the 2nd best team in R3 D2
Pasadena Memorial 30-14 - Second closest spread on the season at 16
Houston Madison 42-8 - Domination
Strake Jesuit 51-18 - Domination
Mayde Creek 63-3 - Beat eventual 4A state champ Lamar Consolidated, domination
Alief Elsik 45-6 - Domination
Cinco Ranch 38-9 - Domination
Morton Ranch 52-12 - Domination
Alief Hastings 24-13 - Closest game of the season at 11 points
Katy Taylor 48-0 - Domination
Alief Taylor 38-0 - Domination
A&M Consolidated 41-14 - Domination
The Woodlands 48-7 - Domination
Klein 45-0 - Domination

[Fleeman93]

Look at the win/loss records of the opponents faced in the playoffs and all were better than the opponents of Katy. Yes, Katy was good.....no they didn't play the best teams....by far.

My point was that Trinity supporters will talk up Trinity's playoff opponents but when you really look at those opponents you can see that they weren't as strong as they seem on the surface. Katy played and dominated the teams on their schedule the way the best team in the state should.

[E-Vol-ution]

Um.....the best teams were in D1, Region 1......lol
Care to post the records of those teams Katy beat?
Know how many of those teams played were ranked? 1 as in Pflugerville.
Katy has always impressed me, but the opponents below? Not really.
I put 08 in the question and obviously it should have been 07. In 07 Katy played and beat:


Pflugerville 28-7 - Dominated the best team from either R1/R2 D2
San Antonio Madison 66-21 - Dominated the best team from R4 D2 who Judson barely snuck by 20-17
Fort Bend Clements 42-0 - Absolute domination of the 2nd best team in R3 D2
Pasadena Memorial 30-14 - Second closest spread on the season at 16
Houston Madison 42-8 - Domination
Strake Jesuit 51-18 - Domination
Mayde Creek 63-3 - Beat eventual 4A state champ Lamar Consolidated, domination
Alief Elsik 45-6 - Domination
Cinco Ranch 38-9 - Domination
Morton Ranch 52-12 - Domination
Alief Hastings 24-13 - Closest game of the season at 11 points
Katy Taylor 48-0 - Domination
Alief Taylor 38-0 - Domination
A&M Consolidated 41-14 - Domination
The Woodlands 48-7 - Domination
Klein 45-0 - Domination

[E-Vol-ution]

I'm no Trinity guy.....the entire country agreed with me.
You are a very consistent homer...I must say.
My point was that Trinity supporters will talk up Trinity's playoff opponents but when you really look at those opponents you can see that they weren't as strong as they seem on the surface. Katy played and dominated the teams on their schedule the way the best team in the state should.

[CCHS77]

I'm no Trinity guy.....the entire country agreed with me. You are a very consistent homer...I must say.



All 303+ million Americans?

[E-Vol-ution]

Every single one of em.......:)
All 303+ million Americans?

[CCHS77]

Every single one of em.......:)

I think you are off by a few.

[Fleeman93]

Look at the win/loss records of the opponents faced in the playoffs and all were better than the opponents of Katy. Yes, Katy was good.....no they didn't play the best teams....by far.


Now explain what win/loss records get you. See Katy 08 and Judson 07 (that one stings). But for your satisfaction:

Finals - Advantage Katy
Pflugerville 12-4
Judson 11-5

Semi Finals - Push
Madison - 13-2
Plano - 13-2

Regional Finals - Advantage Katy
Clements - 13-1
Bowie - 12-2

Regional Semi Finals - Advantage Trinity
Pasadena Memorial - 9-3
Permian - 12-1

R2 - Advantage Trinity
Madison - 7-5
Lewisville - 8-4

R1 - Advantage Katy
the jesuits - 8-3
Martin - 7-4

So simply based on opponents win/loss records like you asked for Katy holds the advantage 3 to 2 with one push (do remember you asked for a win loss comparison). Also, if you look at total combined records of playoff opponents Trinity holds a single game edge on Katy with Trinity at 63-18 and Katy at 62-18. Before you throw out Trinity playing a much much harder strength of schedule please do remember that this site had Trinity's SOS at 8 and Katy's at 12. So Katy played an 8 point less strength of schedule against opponents with a combined 1 less win yet still had a the #1 margin at 35.6 (Trinity #11 at 20.8) the #1 points against per game at 8.3 (Trinity #4 at 9.8) and the #4 point per game at 43.8 (Trinity #55 at 30.5). Conclusions, Trinity and DFW supporters will draw their own but in no way can they substantiate them with facts like the ones given.

[Fleeman93]

Um.....the best teams were in D1, Region 1......lol
Care to post the records of those teams Katy beat?
Know how many of those teams played were ranked? 1 as in Pflugerville.
Katy has always impressed me, but the opponents below? Not really.

Would it have been less impressive to you had Katy played those teams to closer games or losses like Trinity did or dominate them like they did? Trinity's most dominating win on the season was a 44 point win (Katy's AVERAGE PPG was 43.8) over a 6-5 Hurst Bell team. As far as #1's go, #1's don't get you squat (see Trinity 08).

[Fleeman93]

I'm no Trinity guy.....the entire country agreed with me.
You are a very consistent homer...I must say.

Show me one single final season poll that had Trinity ranked higher than Katy in 07.

[Fleeman93]

All 303+ million Americans?

Yes, all 303+ million Americans yet he won't be able to find one poll to support it.

:D

[E-Vol-ution]

The teams listed show just how much better Trinity's opponents were. Everyone of the Katy's opponents would have been beaten by Trinity's opponents. Just look at those match-ups..........lolNow explain what win/loss records get you. See Katy 08 and Judson 07 (that one stings). But for your satisfaction:

Finals - Advantage Katy
Pflugerville 12-4
Judson 11-5

Semi Finals - Push
Madison - 13-2
Plano - 13-2

Regional Finals - Advantage Katy
Clements - 13-1
Bowie - 12-2

Regional Semi Finals - Advantage Trinity
Pasadena Memorial - 9-3
Permian - 12-1

R2 - Advantage Trinity
Madison - 7-5
Lewisville - 8-4

R1 - Advantage Katy
the jesuits - 8-3
Martin - 7-4

So simply based on opponents win/loss records like you asked for Katy holds the advantage 3 to 2 with one push (do remember you asked for a win loss comparison). Also, if you look at total combined records of playoff opponents Trinity holds a single game edge on Katy with Trinity at 63-18 and Katy at 62-18. Before you throw out Trinity playing a much much harder strength of schedule please do remember that this site had Trinity's SOS at 8 and Katy's at 12. So Katy played an 8 point less strength of schedule against opponents with a combined 1 less win yet still had a the #1 margin at 35.6 (Trinity #11 at 20.8) the #1 points against per game at 8.3 (Trinity #4 at 9.8) and the #4 point per game at 43.8 (Trinity #55 at 30.5). Conclusions, Trinity and DFW supporters will draw their own but in no way can they substantiate them with facts like the ones given.

[Fleeman93]

The teams listed show just how much better Trinity's opponents were. Everyone of the Katy's opponents would have been beaten by Trinity's opponents. Just look at those match-ups..........lol

You have yet to tell me why Bowie was so good. How about Plano? What did they do on the season in 07 that was so impressive?

[E-Vol-ution]

Bowie took (shared) district title which included Prior 5A champ Cedar Hill and Desoto and beat Lubbock Coronado in what was pretty much a home game for them while losing to Trinity with a drive in the red zone during final minutes. Plano played in one of the toughest districts in the state (yep, their schedule was tougher than yours too) I believe SLC was in that region.You have yet to tell me why Bowie was so good. How about Plano? What did they do on the season in 07 that was so impressive?

[KT2000]

Now explain what win/loss records get you. See Katy 08 and Judson 07 (that one stings). But for your satisfaction:

Finals - Advantage Katy
Pflugerville 12-4
Judson 11-5

Semi Finals - Push
Madison - 13-2
Plano - 13-2

Regional Finals - Advantage Katy
Clements - 13-1
Bowie - 12-2

Regional Semi Finals - Advantage Trinity
Pasadena Memorial - 9-3
Permian - 12-1

R2 - Advantage Trinity
Madison - 7-5
Lewisville - 8-4

R1 - Advantage Katy
the jesuits - 8-3
Martin - 7-4

I'd give Plano the advantage over Madison because the Mavs were depleted injury wise. I'd call Round 2 a push. I'd give Round 4 to Bowie.

The schedule debate is irrelevant in my opinion. I think it is much more productive to look at how the two teams being compared actually match up.

[KT2000]

Bowie took (shared) district title which included Prior 5A champ Cedar Hill and Desoto and beat Lubbock Coronado in what was pretty much a home game for them while losing to Trinity with a drive in the red zone during final minutes. Plano played in one of the toughest districts in the state (yep, their schedule was tougher than yours too) I believe SLC was in that region.

Wylie beat Bowie and CH by double digits and played both Plano and Allen to one possession games. The Houston area teams weren't as bad as people thought last year.

[slcdragonfan]

You wont find the '03 Carroll team or the '05 Katy team on that list because that list only includes teams who won the title, not title losers.

Also its just my opinion but I think you're selling the point spread thing a little high, just based on who those numbers were put up against. I believe (as most do) that its all relative to who you are playing. I think if I were to create a number ranking in terms of margin of victory, it would have to considered heavily in relation to the SOS rather then seperate the 2..I dont know how this could be done, but certainly you are giving a higher number in SOS to the '00 Katy team and the lower margin to the '05 Carroll team just based off the 10 teams they had in the finals...But when looking at the list I posted that WOS created that '00 Katy team is 45th on the list and 11% behind that '05 Carroll team that without question played the tougher opponents. Either you're giving the '00 Katy team to much credit for their SOS or not giving the '05 Carroll team enough credit for the margin of victory they had against the better SOS.

Like I said, its all in relation to who you played to get the margins of victory...its easy to put those wide margins up against the lesser opponents.

I haven't gone back and crunched numbers by game by quarter (and don't plan to :)), but I believe that the Southlake offense was so dominant during key years that the points allowed got deceptively high because the other team was out of the game early and Southlake played second/third stringers to get experience. For example, points allowed when you are up by 30 by the third quarter don't have as much meaning. for a system to really work, the points delta would have to be considered, i.e. if Team A is up by X amount, then the weighting factor of points allowed uses a less than 1 multiplier.

[Dynastybegan86]

The teams listed show just how much better Trinity's opponents were. Everyone of the Katy's opponents would have been beaten by Trinity's opponents. Just look at those match-ups..........lol

E, I have to say what I feel.....YAWN!

It's nice to speculate and you can continue to respond in your pontificating ways, but facts are facts. Katy was defeated by no one, ET lost one. That in and of itself is compelling. The fact also, that all R1 fans claim superiority over all regions, but especially over R3 and R4 teams, yet ET can only muster a 3 point win over the lowly R4 team Judson? Can you splain that? While Katy owned it's competition, not allowing anyone within 11 points, and never trailed at the half the entire year, or at the end of the game, obviously. R1 wasn't even good enough to get there and we rolled the R2 team that beat the almighty R1 rep. Katy shouldn't have to apologize or feel inferior because you or all 303+ million americans say they should. If R1 can't get there, they must not be as great as you think. Katy made it there and did what they were suppose to do...win championships. ET did as well and my hat is off to them, they are a great team and program, but just because they win in D1 and are from R1 doesn't automatically give them the W over Katy or allow them to claim that they are #1 in Texas. I know you think so, but I would say that is you being a "consistent homer".

[E-Vol-ution]

You are entitled.........But for a Katy guy to call someone a homer is a compliment..........:)
Again...I'm no Trinity guy.
ET avenged that loss.
E, I have to say what I feel.....YAWN!

It's nice to speculate and you can continue to respond in your pontificating ways, but facts are facts. Katy was defeated by no one, ET lost one. That in and of itself is compelling. The fact also, that all R1 fans claim superiority over all regions, but especially over R3 and R4 teams, yet ET can only muster a 3 point win over the lowly R4 team Judson? Can you splain that? While Katy owned it's competition, not allowing anyone within 11 points, and never trailed at the half the entire year, or at the end of the game, obviously. R1 wasn't even good enough to get there and we rolled the R2 team that beat the almighty R1 rep. Katy shouldn't have to apologize or feel inferior because you or all 303+ million americans say they should. If R1 can't get there, they must not be as great as you think. Katy made it there and did what they were suppose to do...win championships. ET did as well and my hat is off to them, they are a great team and program, but just because they win in D1 and are from R1 doesn't automatically give the W over Katy or allow them to claim that they are #1 in Texas. I know you think so, but I would say that is you being a "consistent homer".

[SLC]

I haven't gone back and crunched numbers by game by quarter (and don't plan to :)), but I believe that the Southlake offense was so dominant during key years that the points allowed got deceptively high because the other team was out of the game early and Southlake played second/third stringers to get experience. For example, points allowed when you are up by 30 by the third quarter don't have as much meaning. for a system to really work, the points delta would have to be considered, i.e. if Team A is up by X amount, then the weighting factor of points allowed uses a less than 1 multiplier.



True, but you also have to figure its the same for Katy because those teams Katy had were also scoring alot of points and usually put teams away early as well. I know that was the case for their 2000 and 2007 teams for sure.

[Dynastybegan86]

You are entitled.........But for a Katy guy to call someone a homer is a compliment..........:)
Again...I'm no Trinity guy.
ET avenged that loss.

"consistent homer" as in R1, not ET...cept they are form R1, so I guess that you have e-vol-ved into an ET homer at some point!;)

BTW, Katy had none to avenge:ninja: A loss is a loss, avenged or not.

[E-Vol-ution]

I would never claim the Houston teams are bad.........there just isn't as much depth as there is in the DFW area.
Wylie beat Bowie and CH by double digits and played both Plano and Allen to one possession games. The Houston area teams weren't as bad as people thought last year.

[E-Vol-ution]

I also went so far as to call anyone foolish that would count Katy out during last post season.
Look it up.
"consistent homer" as in R1, not ET...cept they are form R1, so I guess that you have e-vol-ved into an ET homer at some point!;)

BTW, Katy had none to avenge:ninja: A loss is a loss, avenged or not.

[Dynastybegan86]

I also went so far as to call anyone foolish that would count Katy out during last post season.
Look it up.

I'll take you at your word. It does seem you have an occasional rational thought from time to time, so I am glad to see you are having some improvement from your R1 brain washing.:D

[farmerfan]

Another thing Flee is consistent at is keeping the 2007 discussions going on and on.
Trinity sucked in 07 and everybody knows it. Just like their 05 team they are not a worthy champion. You should stop now evolution.

[Mong Hu]

Now explain what win/loss records get you. See Katy 08 and Judson 07 (that one stings). But for your satisfaction:

Finals - Advantage Katy
Pflugerville 12-4
Judson 11-5

Semi Finals - Push
Madison - 13-2
Plano - 13-2

Regional Finals - Advantage Katy
Clements - 13-1
Bowie - 12-2

Regional Semi Finals - Advantage Trinity
Pasadena Memorial - 9-3
Permian - 12-1

R2 - Advantage Trinity
Madison - 7-5
Lewisville - 8-4

R1 - Advantage Katy
the jesuits - 8-3
Martin - 7-4

So simply based on opponents win/loss records like you asked for Katy holds the advantage 3 to 2 with one push (do remember you asked for a win loss comparison). Also, if you look at total combined records of playoff opponents Trinity holds a single game edge on Katy with Trinity at 63-18 and Katy at 62-18. Before you throw out Trinity playing a much much harder strength of schedule please do remember that this site had Trinity's SOS at 8 and Katy's at 12. So Katy played an 8 point less strength of schedule against opponents with a combined 1 less win yet still had a the #1 margin at 35.6 (Trinity #11 at 20.8) the #1 points against per game at 8.3 (Trinity #4 at 9.8) and the #4 point per game at 43.8 (Trinity #55 at 30.5). Conclusions, Trinity and DFW supporters will draw their own but in no way can they substantiate them with facts like the ones given.

Fleeman,

I have to say well done:notworthy. I have not seen Evo put up a list which I believe you requested first and now I know why. Good logic. I think that you have just taken Evo to the proverbial woodshed. Unless he comes back with some numbers to back him up I think this is game set match point, at least in my book.

No doubt that he thinks the lesser records of those teams faced by Trinity are more impressive because the records where achieved in the more difficult DFW area or DI/DII regions but at some point it becomes an argument which becomes a crutch. Every time a point is made that seems to counter the DFW teams claim to supremacy their supporters just say yes but we are the DFW and we are tougher and everyone knows that. I, like you, acknowledge that there are some great teams in that area and they may in fact have an edge in the SOS argument but I am not convinced that it is so dramatic and advantage as to fully support the claims that are sometimes made. (again I say fully because I think it is certainly a good point in their favor) Points such as Evo's. I do not think that the SOS advantage that DFW may have is so significant as to elevate the lesser records of the DI and DII teams you mentioned over the better records of DIII or DIV teams on your list.

[E-Vol-ution]

Sorry if I can't find myself hourly extolling the greatness of all things Katy.
I'll take you at your word. It does seem you have an occasional rational thought from time to time, so I am glad to see you are having some improvement from your R1 brain washing.:D

[E-Vol-ution]

What anyone would also see is that if any of those groupings were to take place............R1 would sweep.
I couldn't have asked for a better comparison.
Fleeman,

I have to say well done:notworthy. I have not seen Evo put up a list which I believe you requested first and now I know why. Good logic. I think that you have just taken Evo to the proverbial woodshed. Unless he comes back with some numbers to back him up I think this is game set match point, at least in my book.

No doubt that he thinks the lesser records of those teams faced by Trinity are more impressive because the records where achieved in the more difficult DFW area or DI/DII regions but at some point it becomes an argument which becomes a crutch. Every time a point is made that seems to counter the DFW teams claim to supremacy their supporters just say yes but we are the DFW and we are tougher and everyone knows that. I, like you, acknowledge that there are some great teams in that area and they may in fact have an edge in the SOS argument but I am not convinced that it is so dramatic and advantage as to fully support the claims that are sometimes made. (again I say fully because I think it is certainly a good point in their favor) Points such as Evo's. I do not think that the SOS advantage that DFW may have is so significant as to elevate the lesser records of the DI and DII teams you mentioned over the better records of DIII or DIV teams on your list.

[Mong Hu]

I haven't gone back and crunched numbers by game by quarter (and don't plan to :)), but I believe that the Southlake offense was so dominant during key years that the points allowed got deceptively high because the other team was out of the game early and Southlake played second/third stringers to get experience. For example, points allowed when you are up by 30 by the third quarter don't have as much meaning. for a system to really work, the points delta would have to be considered, i.e. if Team A is up by X amount, then the weighting factor of points allowed uses a less than 1 multiplier.

slcdragonfan,

I believe your point is probably a valid one but it is next to impossible to quantify for the purposes of arguments like this one. I think it is similar to Dyanastybegan86's argument that Katy let off of the gas in the 4th against Pfluggy. It may be true but it is very difficult to quantify in any measurable way. For those reasons I think the only thing we have to debate are the numbers as they appear. I think your points delta idea however is an interesting one in relation to this argument.

I agree about crunching too many numbers. I find this thread to be interesting but sometimes trying to crunch all the numbers can get a little convoluted.

[drgnbkr]

To me, a playoff system with 2 champs is preferable to the mess that is the BCS. So, in our world, titles mean everything. Win a state title and you are the king for a year. Win multiple titles and you validate the programs greatness. Arguing about the relative merits of individual program's accomplishments is moving back toward the BCS's way which is a circular argument. Add up the titles...more is great....fewer is less so.

[Mong Hu]

You wont find the '03 Carroll team or the '05 Katy team on that list because that list only includes teams who won the title, not title losers.
Dang it, I hate it when I don't read things completely kind of like on that poll thread you started about Team of the Decade a while back. If I had read the top of that chart you posted I would have known that. Thanks for being patient with me and explaining the obvious to me.


Also its just my opinion but I think you're selling the point spread thing a little high, just based on who those numbers were put up against. I believe (as most do) that its all relative to who you are playing. I think if I were to create a number ranking in terms of margin of victory, it would have to considered heavily in relation to the SOS rather then seperate the 2..I dont know how this could be done, but certainly you are giving a higher number in SOS to the '00 Katy team and the lower margin to the '05 Carroll team just based off the 10 teams they had in the finals...But when looking at the list I posted that WOS created that '00 Katy team is 45th on the list and 11% behind that '05 Carroll team that without question played the tougher opponents. Either you're giving the '00 Katy team to much credit for their SOS or not giving the '05 Carroll team enough credit for the margin of victory they had against the better SOS.

Like I said, its all in relation to who you played to get the margins of victory...its easy to put those wide margins up against the lesser opponents.

I am not sure that I am selling the point spread thing high as much as I am separating the two. I agree with you that the two are linked and would be much more effective if the relationship between the two could be expressed in some sort of formula or equation. I actually think the margin argument is the more critical factual argument I just think that it only holds its true relevance when viewed through the prism of SOS. If you separate the two and consider them separately, as I have done, I think that it decreases the relevance of each of them. (although I still think that trying to consider them both even separately is better than just considering one or the other on their own) So I am agreeing with your statement above more or less.

I also am regretting using the term margin of victory to describe the ratio I used in my initial post because it is really not margin of victory although it does somewhat describe and is in some ways factored from margin of victory. The ratio really attempts to compare offensive strength to defensive strength using point totals. In other words Katy 2.7's 5 to 1 ratio means that if you put up 7 on them they put up 35 on you, or if you put up 14 on them they would put up 70 on you. In both instances the ratio is 5 points scored for every point allowed but the margin of victory is different in each case. I liked the ratio because it attempted to compare Offensive and Defensive strength of a team in one piece of data. Again I 100% agree that the number becomes much more relevant when viewed through the lens of SOS for the reasons that have already been stated. Any team would be expected to put up more points and allow fewer points against weaker competition and the inverse is also true against stronger competition. The question which I have yet to answer in my own head is how do I express that relationship between SOS and the margin ratio in a way that can be calculated mathematically to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. Dang there was a reason I switched from a math major to a history major, this stuff makes my head hurt.

[SLC]

I am not sure that I am selling the point spread thing high as much as I am separating the two. I agree with you that the two are linked and would be much more effective if the relationship between the two could be expressed in some sort of formula or equation. I actually think the margin argument is the more critical factual argument I just think that it only holds its true relevance when viewed through the prism of SOS. If you separate the two and consider them separately, as I have done, I think that it decreases the relevance of each of them. (although I still think that trying to consider them both even separately is better than just considering one or the other on their own) So I am agreeing with your statement above more or less.

I also am regretting using the term margin of victory to describe the ratio I used in my initial post because it is really not margin of victory although it does somewhat describe and is in some ways factored from margin of victory. The ratio really attempts to compare offensive strength to defensive strength using point totals. In other words Katy 2.7's 5 to 1 ratio means that if you put up 7 on them they put up 35 on you, or if you put up 14 on them they would put up 70 on you. In both instances the ratio is 5 points scored for every point allowed but the margin of victory is different in each case. I liked the ratio because it attempted to compare Offensive and Defensive strength of a team in one piece of data. Again I 100% agree that the number becomes much more relevant when viewed through the lens of SOS for the reasons that have already been stated. Any team would be expected to put up more points and allow fewer points against weaker competition and the inverse is also true against stronger competition. The question which I have yet to answer in my own head is how do I express that relationship between SOS and the margin ratio in a way that can be calculated mathematically to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. Dang there was a reason I switched from a math major to a history major, this stuff makes my head hurt.

By the way, I didnt create the team of the decade thread, that was Cavalier Dad that created that one.


I'm not totally sure on how one would go about making a good formula either. I know Freeman and Massey have a formula for this..but I've never broke down how they do it. I remember one time WOS made a list on it as well and he had '05 and '06 Carroll ranked ahead of all of the Katy teams..I believe the '07 Katy team was one spot behind '05 Carroll and '06 Carroll was second behind '03 North Shore, the '05 Carroll team was forth and '07 Katy was fifth ..I dont know his formula completely, other than he used margin and SOS as well.

[slcdragonfan]

slcdragonfan,

I believe your point is probably a valid one but it is next to impossible to quantify for the purposes of arguments like this one. I think it is similar to Dyanastybegan86's argument that Katy let off of the gas in the 4th against Pfluggy. It may be true but it is very difficult to quantify in any measurable way. For those reasons I think the only thing we have to debate are the numbers as they appear. I think your points delta idea however is an interesting one in relation to this argument.

I agree about crunching too many numbers. I find this thread to be interesting but sometimes trying to crunch all the numbers can get a little convoluted.

NM. Too complicated. I am going back to 'because I wish it so'. ;)

[Mong Hu]

By the way, I didnt create the team of the decade thread, that was Cavalier Dad that created that one.


Sorry about that thought that was you. It was actually twcpfan1 who started it. I hate that I am a history teacher who can't seem to remember. How ironic is that?

[SLC]

Sorry about that thought that was you. It was actually twcpfan1 who started it. I hate that I am a history teacher who can't seem to remember. How ironic is that?


Cavalier Dad is twcpfan1...they are one in the same.

[Dynastybegan86]

Sorry if I can't find myself hourly extolling the greatness of all things Katy.

I understand, but every other hour should be easy for you!:D

I, too, can't find myself extolling the greatness of all things DFW. :ninja: