View Full Version : Who is the greatest Texas program?
DownSouth
10-24-2008, 11:30 PM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
I'm not being a homer at all...
Simply put..
Its the Southlake Carroll Dragons
I would however take the Trinity Trojans or the Katy Tigers
The Original
10-24-2008, 11:33 PM
I'd have to say Permian...
drgnbkr
10-24-2008, 11:36 PM
It usually changes every year, but lately it has been Carroll..This argument comes up at least 4 - 5 times a year and there is never a consensus. There are too many good teams in Texas that would dominate nationally.
nevaplayedk9
10-24-2008, 11:36 PM
I'd have to say Permian...
so many that are worthy, but permian comes to mind first
TheScout
10-24-2008, 11:38 PM
St. Thomas Aquinas:rolleyes:
PermianFan4Life
10-24-2008, 11:40 PM
There are too many good teams in Texas that would dominate nationally.
I am biased of course but this is the best overall answer.
DownSouth
10-24-2008, 11:40 PM
St. Thomas Aquinas:rolleyes:
Just so you know, I could never stand them, ecspecially when we were getting our tails whipped by them. They don't like us either.
They are legit though...very very legit.
nevaplayedk9
10-24-2008, 11:41 PM
I am biased of course but this is the best overall answer.
agreed
TheScout
10-24-2008, 11:42 PM
I'm not being a homer at all...
Simply put..
Its the Southlake Carroll Dragons
If your going off the last half decade, nobody has won more games or championships than either SLC or Trinity. And if Trinity wins this year. They will be the best over the last 5 years, winning 3 titles.
SLCbacker
10-24-2008, 11:43 PM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
Carroll playing in every game possible for 5 years in a row, Record 79-1, Played in 5 5A State Championships in a row (winning 4 of the 5)....will not be repeated for a long time!
Overall "Program"....Definately Carroll. The Dragons win nearly every Championship at all levels...7th, 8th, Freshman, JV, and Varsity.
drgnbkr
10-24-2008, 11:46 PM
If your going off the last half decade, nobody has won more games or championships than either SLC or Trinity. And if Trinity wins this year. They will be the best over the last 5 years, winning 3 titles.
Carroll has won 4 over the past 6, so....It's just a non-ending argument...Celina is awesome, but I don't think they are deep enough at a 3-A size to compete with the big teams...HP can't even win titles consistently in 4-A. Put Katy, Carroll, Trinity, Judson in a hat and draw a name..you'd probably do pretty well..it's been a long time since Permian or Plano won a title..sorry, just the truth.
TheScout
10-24-2008, 11:49 PM
True, but 1 play has kept Trinity from now trying for their 4th straight title.
SLCbacker
10-24-2008, 11:49 PM
Carroll has won 4 over the past 6, so....It's just a non-ending argument...Celina is awesome, but I don't think they are deep enough at a 3-A size to compete with the big teams...HP can't even win titles consistently in 4-A. Put Katy, Carroll, Trinity, Judson in a hat and draw a name..you'd probably do pretty well..it's been a long time since Permian or Plano won a title..sorry, just the truth.
Why do people always mention Permian.....They are so 1980's.:D
SLCbacker
10-24-2008, 11:51 PM
True, but 1 play has kept Trinity from now trying for their 4th straight title.
Loved that Play! :notworthy
True, but 1 play has kept Trinity from now trying for their 4th straight title.
And that play what the result of fear.... Fear of what happened 1 minute later...:p
mojotrain
10-24-2008, 11:56 PM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
I'd throw Permians hat in the ring except for your inclusion of numbers sent to the Pros or even D-1 colleges. The pros happened every now and then. Starting with Royce Berry of the Bengals and the last, Roy Williams of the Detroit Cowboys:o. Just not a lot of pros from Permian compared to a few other schools. We did what we did from the day the school opened for the next 37 years, took a 8 year holiday and are now Back on the Road Again.
If you are writing a book or going to produce a movie delete this message and give the honor:eek: to Judson, Plano, Katy or SLC. We don't need it!
This is a hopeless whizzing contest. You could help by adding a time frame.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
If you mean a team that defines Texas football for all time, not just the last 15 years, I'd say Permian or Plano. But the greatest team ever was the 1985 Houston Yates team.
SLCDad
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
According to the Freeman model, SLC is the top program in the nation. It's hard to find any team from any state that has done as well over the last few years.
http://calpreps.com/National_dynasty_ratings.htm
Texas Bob
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
I don't think D-1 players or those that go Pro is a good measure of a successful program. Its system, team and coaching that make a successful program. Permian, SLC, Katy and others do come to mind in these three categories.
If you want to talk about what players do after high school I think I could make a case that Katy sends more players to the Marine Corp than any other team.
TexasBob
in Korea
DownSouth
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
Carroll has won 4 over the past 6, so....It's just a non-ending argument...Celina is awesome, but I don't think they are deep enough at a 3-A size to compete with the big teams...HP can't even win titles consistently in 4-A. Put Katy, Carroll, Trinity, Judson in a hat and draw a name..you'd probably do pretty well..it's been a long time since Permian or Plano won a title..sorry, just the truth.
This brings up another question that I have.
In Florida we have about 565 high schools, about 80 at 5A.
But in Florida, any year, any team from any class could be the best.
Aquinas from 5A this year or maybe even Armwood from 4A, Northwestern from 6A last year, Glades Central from 3A are always very good , Madison County from 2A, last year's Pahokee team from 2B, Naples of a few years ago from 3A, Niceville and Pine Forest from 5A this year, Lakelands' run from the 05, 06, 07 seasons in 5A, Lincoln of 4A in the early 2000's.
Does the best team in Texas ALWAYS run through 5A?
Has a lower class ever had the "best" team from Texas? And who is the best team from the non-5A teams this year? Lake Travis?
TheScout
10-25-2008, 12:14 AM
This brings up another question that I have.
In Florida we have about 565 high schools, about 80 at 5A.
But in Florida, any year, any team from any class could be the best.
Aquinas from 5A this year or maybe even Armwood from 4A, Northwestern from 6A last year, Glades Central from 3A are always very good , Madison County from 2A, last year's Pahokee team from 2B, Naples of a few years ago from 3A, Niceville and Pine Forest from 5A this year, Lakelands' run from the 05, 06, 07 seasons in 5A, Lincoln of 4A in the early 2000's.
Does the best team in Texas ALWAYS run through 5A?
Has a lower class ever had the "best" team from Texas? And who is the best team from the non-5A teams this year? Lake Travis?
Screwy things are happening this year in other classes. Celina is Losing:eek:..which never happens, Pilot point isn't as noticeable as usual. HP is not as dominant as I thought. Lake Travis is better than a lot of 5A schools. there could be a case in the past a FEW times where a smaller school was the Best.
ExCOOG88
10-25-2008, 12:14 AM
This brings up another question that I have.
In Florida we have about 565 high schools, about 80 at 5A.
But in Florida, any year, any team from any class could be the best.
Aquinas from 5A this year or maybe even Armwood from 4A, Northwestern from 6A last year, Glades Central from 3A are always very good , Madison County from 2A, last year's Pahokee team from 2B, Naples of a few years ago from 3A, Niceville and Pine Forest from 5A this year, Lakelands' run from the 05, 06, 07 seasons in 5A, Lincoln of 4A in the early 2000's.
Does the best team in Texas ALWAYS run through 5A?
Has a lower class ever had the "best" team from Texas? And who is the best team from the non-5A teams this year? Lake Travis?
They never play so it would be hard to say for certain. But yes, to answer your question there have been 4A teams that were probably better than their 5a counterparts. Stephenville comes to mind back when Briles was there.
DownSouth
10-25-2008, 12:20 AM
If you mean a team that defines Texas football for all time ,not just the last 15 years, I'd say Permian or Plano. But the greatest team ever was the 1985 Houston Yates team.
That's what I was wondering Scout.
To the poster above you, NO, I'm not writing a book or anything. ;)
Just a guy from Florida wondering who some of the most storied programs' in Texas are.
For some of the other posters that latched on to one of the criteria I listed and went off that, branch out a little, it wasn't reserved to who has the most pro's or books written about them. I was trying to see who it was that has any of those factors that makes them one of the All-Time Texas greats, you could have included who usually has the hottest cheerleaders if you wanted too.
All very interesting answers though.
Memorial76
10-25-2008, 12:23 AM
According to the Freeman model, SLC is the top program in the nation. It's hard to find any team from any state that has done as well over the last few years.
http://calpreps.com/National_dynasty_ratings.htm
Very interesting. But the answer this year would be Trinity.
Unless they get beat!
This brings up another question that I have.
In Florida we have about 565 high schools, about 80 at 5A.
But in Florida, any year, any team from any class could be the best.
Aquinas from 5A this year or maybe even Armwood from 4A, Northwestern from 6A last year, Glades Central from 3A are always very good , Madison County from 2A, last year's Pahokee team from 2B, Naples of a few years ago from 3A, Niceville and Pine Forest from 5A this year, Lakelands' run from the 05, 06, 07 seasons in 5A, Lincoln of 4A in the early 2000's.
Does the best team in Texas ALWAYS run through 5A?
Has a lower class ever had the "best" team from Texas? And who is the best team from the non-5A teams this year? Lake Travis?
There have been a few lower class teams that could be called the best in Texas that particular season.... La Marque, Stephenville, Lake Travis are all 4A power houses or were at one time or another... But there isnt a 3A or lower in Texas that could touch a great 5A school...
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
I have to go back to this again... In bold was your criteria, or at least what you listed..
Carroll Dragons have 7 State Championships won through 2 different classifications over the last 18 years.. So it shows their ability to sustain over time and win at different levels..
They have had several players sent to colleges at every level and have 2 in the pro's and playing on major D1 schools right now..
And they are by far the most recognizable high school football team in America.. As stated by many national outlets... Their "Dragon" emblem is known throughout the US...
And if you asked coaches who they would put on the national stage to play an OOS opponet, I would bet a pint of piss to a prancin rooster THEY would say the Carroll Dragons...
TheScout
10-25-2008, 12:37 AM
But my favorites are; (not in any order)
Permian
Plano
DallasCarter
Houston Yates
SL Carroll
Katy
Trinity
Stephenville
Pilot Point
Mart
Highland Park
Ennis
Converse Judson (The team that is Always in the state game)(11 times since 1980)(6 times in the 90's)
Midland Lee
Westlake
Everman
Gilmer
Itasca
Waco
Wichita Falls
Throckmorton
jrp83
10-25-2008, 12:47 AM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
Well, 3 programs come to mind if you prefer long term consistent success, those would be Plano, Odessa Permian, & Judson. On the other hand 3 programs come to mind if you prefer more recent dominance, say the last 10 yrs or so, and those would be SLC, Trinity, & Katy. With their win tonight, Judson ties Brownwood & Odessa Permian for the 2nd most consecutive winning seasons in state history at 32. Plano sits at the top at 36 straight. As mentioned, more recently SLC, Trinity, & Katy have been pretty much unstoppable. I guess it's all how you look at it and what you are looking for. There have been some great teams other than those mentioned, but the OP is asking for the programs that are consistently at or near the top, not just a good year here or there. I know Midland Lee won 3 straight, but other than that, what have they done. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just my opinion.
Go Rockets!!
I have to go back to this again... In bold was your criteria, or at least what you listed..
Carroll Dragons have 7 State Championships won through 2 different classifications over the last 18 years.. So it shows their ability to sustain over time and win at different levels..
They have had several players sent to colleges at every level and have 2 in the pro's and playing on major D1 schools right now..
And they are by far the most recognizable high school football team in America.. As stated by many national outlets... Their "Dragon" emblem is known throughout the US...
And if you asked coaches who they would put on the national stage to play an OOS opponet, I would bet a pint of piss to a prancin rooster THEY would say the Carroll Dragons...
2 words....Miami Northwestern....I don't know if Carroll would be the decision from the majority of coaches for playing OOS teams...and saying SLC is more known than Permian?You were right in your first post when you said you were biased :D
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:02 AM
2 words....Miami Northwestern....I don't know if Carroll would be the decision from the majority of coaches for playing OOS teams...and saying SLC is more known than Permian?You were right in your first post when you said you were biased :D
I agree. More people watch or have seen "Friday Night Lights" than have seen SLC's symbol. Heck even Trinity has a Gatorade commercial, constant headlines in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, 60 minutes, and CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, but that does not even come close to matching a movie and a TV series.:rolleyes:
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 01:14 AM
Why do people always mention Permian.....They are so 1980's.:D
He writer didn't put a time frame on his request but you are not alltogether correct anyhow. I love to do this from time to time.
Permian has always been a large class school. It opened it's door in 1959.
In the decade of the 60s
Permians record was 82 wins, 28 losses, 2 ties.
They were in the championship 2 times winning 1.
In the decade of the 70s
Permians record was 101 wins, 14 losses, 1 tie.
They were in the final game 3 times, winning 1.
In the decade of the 80s(the one you give us credit for)
Permians record was 122 wins, 12 losses, 5 ties.
They were in the finals game 4 times, winning 3.
Even in the decade of the 90s, our demise decade, we finish with 77 wins 27 losses and 3 ties but in the first half of the decade we were 39 wins, 6 losses and 3 ties. With 2 state championships games, winning one of them.
We had a coaching change, in the 90s and as soon as the already developed program was depleted we did go upside down.
I think we have corrected the coaching program and the new coach is 28 wins and 8 losses. The last2 years hes 23 and 3.
So whatever standards are used to compare this sort of stuff for the 60s, 70s, 80s and yes for the first half of the 90s Permian needs not answer to anyone.(I guess thats what I'm doing now though) Thats the better part of four decades. As long as people throw Permians name out on these things then you only need to remember this bit of Permian history to answer your own question.
One other point. If you don't care to use the 80s because it's a long time ago, it's history. 2006 is also history, in truth last December is history.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 01:18 AM
If you mean a team that defines Texas football for all time, not just the last 15 years, I'd say Permian or Plano. But the greatest team ever was the 1985 Houston Yates team.You have never heard me say any other team other that Yates as the best. But from a un bias view, Plano and Judson belong in this conversation.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:24 AM
You have never heard me say any other team other that Yates as the best. But from a un bias view, Plano and Judson belong in this conversation.
I agree. Permian and Plano. Yates was just bonus info for him. even though they have the longest playoff streak alive
TulsaHale74
10-25-2008, 01:27 AM
Highland Park.
Most wins
Most money
Inspiration for "The Official Preppy Handbook"
Full of Real Texans - what's more Texan than old oil money?
Inspiration for "Dallas" the TV show
We all work for their dads - many levels down - who know how we vote
Has 13th - 16th grades
Has the 3 owners of the DFW professional sports teams supporting them through taxes
Lots of diversity - people from the cities of Highland Park and University Park
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 01:32 AM
I agree. More people watch or have seen "Friday Night Lights" than have seen SLC's symbol. Heck even Trinity has a Gatorade commercial, constant headlines in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, 60 minutes, and CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, but that does not even come close to matching a movie and a TV series.:rolleyes:
Sounds just like a justification for a mistake on CNN.
Permian, however you view them, as being famous or notorious was the reason for the book, the movie and the series. What Permian did came before FNL. The book, movie and the series did not make Permian. A winning record of about 80 percent for near 30 years made those things.Those things would not have taken place without Permian already being something special.
The media went to ET and to Permian for different reasons.
I agree. More people watch or have seen "Friday Night Lights" than have seen SLC's symbol. Heck even Trinity has a Gatorade commercial, constant headlines in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, 60 minutes, and CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, but that does not even come close to matching a movie and a TV series.:rolleyes:
That book was based on a game they lost about 20 yrs ago... Not now or even recent history.. And since then Carroll has won 7 state championships....Carroll's record the last 20 seasons is 244-39-1... Their record since entering 5A will probably never be rivaled, and thats saying alot here in the great football state of Texas...95-4. 4 state championships, and 3mnc's... Will never be touched...
THSBandDad
10-25-2008, 01:34 AM
In my mind, Permian. No doubts. But, several teams close behind.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 01:36 AM
I agree. Permian and Plano. Yates was just bonus info for him. even though they have the longest playoff streak alive
I'm not opposed to the trophy going to Yates, Put them on the list and we can see how it works out.
Here I'll get it started for you.
I vote Jack Yates Highschool.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:37 AM
Sounds just like a justification for a mistake on CNN.
Permian, however you view them, as being famous or notorious was the reason for the book, the movie and the series. What Permian did came before FNL. The book, movie and the series did not make Permian. A winning record of about 80 percent for near 30 years made those things.Those things would not have taken place without Permian already being something special.
The media went to ET and to Permian for different reasons.
Chill dude, I was taking your side. Read a little closer, I was responding to someone else.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:38 AM
I'm not opposed to the trophy going to Yates, Put them on the list and we can see how it works out.
Here I'll get it started for you.
I vote Jack Yates Highschool.
Dude, what are you doing? I said Permian and Plano. Yates was a 1 year choice. Try reading....I'm on YOUR side
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:40 AM
That book was based on a game they lost about 20 yrs ago... Not now or even recent history.. And since then Carroll has won 7 state championships....Carroll's record the last 20 seasons is 244-39-1... Their record since entering 5A will probably never be rivaled, and thats saying alot here in the great football state of Texas...95-4. 4 state championships, and 3mnc's... Will never be touched...
I'll take Judson's 11 state games in 24 years (nearly half) over SLC. They have been doing it longer.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 01:40 AM
That book was based on a game they lost about 20 yrs ago... Not now or even recent history.. And since then Carroll has won 7 state championships....Carroll's record the last 20 seasons is 244-39-1... Their record since entering 5A will probably never be rivaled, and thats saying alot here in the great football state of Texas...95-4. 4 state championships, and 3mnc's... Will never be touched...
Here, I'll vote with you. Slc has had, now has and forever will have the best highschool football team to ever take a dump behind a pair of football cleats.
But the book was not based on a game they lost.
2 words....Miami Northwestern....I don't know if Carroll would be the decision from the majority of coaches for playing OOS teams...and saying SLC is more known than Permian?You were right in your first post when you said you were biased :D
CKE... Just remember nobody in this state has ever played as big of a game that MNW/SLC played that day... And I doubt any coach changed their mind after a 8 point loss to a GREAT football team...
And Carroll isnt known because of a movie or book, they are nationally known because of what they do on the field... How many people nationally would know of Permian if there wasnt a book or movie?.. I'll letcha chew on that one for a bit.... It's not a knock on Permian or any other team to give my thoughts and honest opion based on his criteria... Carroll fits all aspects of his criteria.. Now if you want to make your own, then do so and maybe we will come up with a different system.. and different teams..
I'll take Judson's 11 state games in 24 years (nearly half) over SLC. They have been doing it longer.
I will agree with Judson... Kinda.. Remind me how many they won... It's not a knock, but wins matter right?
Here, I'll vote with you. Slc has had, now has and forever will have the best highschool football team to ever take a dump behind a pair of football cleats.
But the book was not based on a game they lost.
Dude... your taken offense because I'm given my opinion based on HIS criteria.. I'm just saying...
And I guess the movie was based on a loss... Never read the book... I'm guessing the movie was seen by more people..
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:48 AM
I will agree with Judson... Kinda.. Remind me how many they won... It's not a knock, but wins matter right?
Being #1 or #2 (11) times is better than being #1 or #2 (8) times
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:51 AM
And that is 11 state title games and 6 titles at the 5A level. SLC only has 4
Being #1 or #2 (11) times is better than being #1 or #2 (8) times
How many state titles?? 6 and I believe they have played in 12 state title games, not 11.
There is only a few teams with 7 and 1 with 8... I'm just saying..
And that is 11 state title games and 6 titles at the 5A level. SLC only has 4
Scout, Scout, Scout... That wasnt HIS criteria, if you want to change the criteria then we can do that... I'm going by what HE said...
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:56 AM
How many state titles?? 6 and I believe they have played in 12 state title games, not 11.
There is only a few teams with 7 and 1 with 8... I'm just saying..
Your making my point for me. All I'm saying is they have done it over 23 years. Not just MAINLY in the last 6 like SLC has. Judson has a Sustained PROGRAM that is unmatched.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 01:58 AM
Scout, Scout, Scout... That wasnt HIS criteria, if you want to change the criteria then we can do that... I'm going by what HE said...
Well I guess Celina is the King then.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:10 AM
How many state titles?? 6 and I believe they have played in 12 state title games, not 11.
There is only a few teams with 7 and 1 with 8... I'm just saying..
12? Can You count? I said 11 since 1980. Go back to school. Judson lost in the playoffs in 1991. Quit reading Wiki. It's never right.
Your making my point for me. All I'm saying is they have done it over 23 years. Not just MAINLY in the last 6 like SLC has. Judson has a Sustained PROGRAM that is unmatched.
Again I can throw out these stats all night that Carroll has acheived, that will probably NEVER be matched... He asked about a team in realation to its history AND its ability to match up against OOS teams.. And I dont know about you, but Judson dont come to mind when I'm naming a list of teams I want to play against OOS teams...
Here is the all time record at Carroll and it doent include recent wins and loses...In their 44-season history, 398-126-8.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:19 AM
Again I can throw out these stats all night that Carroll has acheived, that will probably NEVER be matched... He asked about a team in realation to its history AND its ability to match up against OOS teams.. And I dont know about you, but Judson dont come to mind when I'm naming a list of teams I want to play against OOS teams...
Here is the all time record at Carroll and it doent include recent wins and loses...In their 44-season history, 398-126-8.
If you want to say OOS game right now, then I say Trinity, Woodlands, Allen
But All Time programs to represent Texas: Celina, Permian, Plano
12? Can You count? I said 11 since 1980. Go back to school. Judson lost in the playoffs in 1991. Quit reading Wiki. It's never right.
Actually I didnt read wiki... I was trying to read their records off their website and misread it the first time.. Its hard to follow along on there when my eyes are trying to shut on me..lol... So 6 for 11... We will go with that.. My point still stands... They dont come to mind when I think of playing OOS teams...
If you want to say OOS game right now, then I say Trinity, Woodlands, Allen
But All Time programs to represent Texas: Celina, Permian, Plano
Well now you include Celina and they werent even on your list on the earlier post... But NO, no way a 3A school is able to hang with the best in the country... And for your others, you can take Allen and the Woodlands off that as well...
If you want to go back over a 50 yr period, I'll give you alot of teams... I'll take recent past and weve OWNED all the teams your thinking of...
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:31 AM
Well now you include Celina and they werent even on your list on the earlier post... But NO, no way a 3A school is able to hang with the best in the country... And for your others, you can take Allen and the Woodlands off that as well...
If you want to go back over a 50 yr period, I'll give you alot of teams... I'll take recent past and weve OWNED all the teams your thinking of...
I'm with you on everything you just said, except he did say sustained, so I went back as far as I thought was modern and that is 1980. Since then no one has gone to more title games than Judson. Recent is a diff story. I was just trying to go off of what he said by sustained. I figure 30 years was pretty good. As far as OOS games this year, no. But OOS programs against Texas programs are not even close. Just my opinion.:D
Katyexrb29
10-25-2008, 02:37 AM
If your going off the last half decade, nobody has won more games or championships than either SLC or Trinity. And if Trinity wins this year. They will be the best over the last 5 years, winning 3 titles.
Katy = 3
I'm with you on everything you just said, except he did say sustained, so I went back as far as I thought was modern and that is 1980. Since then no one has gone to more title games than Judson. Recent is a diff story. I was just trying to go off of what he said by sustained. I figure 30 years was pretty good. As far as OOS games this year, no. But OOS programs against Texas programs are not even close. Just my opinion.:D
I agree completely... I gave you a 20 year window for Carroll and it bled into the recent... I'm just saying that I think if we went completely by what he said, then I only have a few teams come to mind... ANd Carroll is one of them..
And no, there is no OOS team I fear if Texas were to match up right now... With ALL our great programs weve got em covered.. COMPLETELY
For this season I'll take Trinity and they could pick their team and I will win 9 times out of 10, no doubt in my mind...
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:44 AM
I agree completely... I gave you a 20 year window for Carroll and it bled into the recent... I'm just saying that I think if we went completely by what he said, then I only have a few teams come to mind... ANd Carroll is one of them..
And no, there is no OOS team I fear if Texas were to match up right now... With ALL our great programs weve got em covered.. COMPLETELY
For this season I'll take Trinity and they could pick their team and I will win 9 times out of 10, no doubt in my mind...
I think people out of state don't realize the competition we have just in DFW. I love that SLC and Trinity are so close yet beat the crap out of everyone else. We are defending North Texas well my friend. Well good luck to Padron getting better, Hopefully he gets better in time for the big show.
I think people out of state don't realize the competition we have just in DFW. I love that SLC and Trinity are so close yet beat the crap out of everyone else. We are defending North Texas well my friend. Well good luck to Padron getting better, Hopefully he gets better in time for the big show.
Between me, you and the fence post... I think this is Davids team now... And I really like him alot... Very fast runner, strong arm... Reminds me of the great Riley Dodge, in alot of ways... The kid is for real and only a JR.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:56 AM
Between me, you and the fence post... I think this is Davids team now... And I really like him alot... Very fast runner, strong arm... Reminds me of the great Riley Dodge, in alot of ways... The kid is for real and only a JR.
Ya I saw him running on " Scoreboard Live" recap and he looked good.:notworthy the only thing I got out of watching Trinity tonight, was Vince Young had on a #19 jersey and played back up QB tonight for Trinity. He pulled a Romo and ran down a hiked ball over his head about 25 yards and than ran by everyone to gain possitive yardage and almost broke it for one. He WILL be the starter next year, but has been on the JV team getting reps. I think he is a soph.
MOJOLonghorn
10-25-2008, 04:58 AM
CKE... Just remember nobody in this state has ever played as big of a game that MNW/SLC played that day... And I doubt any coach changed their mind after a 8 point loss to a GREAT football team...
And Carroll isnt known because of a movie or book, they are nationally known because of what they do on the field... How many people nationally would know of Permian if there wasnt a book or movie?.. I'll letcha chew on that one for a bit.... It's not a knock on Permian or any other team to give my thoughts and honest opion based on his criteria... Carroll fits all aspects of his criteria.. Now if you want to make your own, then do so and maybe we will come up with a different system.. and different teams..
The fact is ...there are 2 books , 1 movie and 1 T.V. series. And Judson has also been getting it done longer. Check back in 10 years,
hoo2ers
10-25-2008, 05:49 AM
It usually changes every year, but lately it has been Carroll..This argument comes up at least 4 - 5 times a year and there is never a consensus. There are too many good teams in Texas that would dominate nationally.
Very true. Texas has several programs at the 5A level that on any given year could dominate some of the top schools from other parts.
hoo2ers
10-25-2008, 05:54 AM
I agree. Permian and Plano. Yates was just bonus info for him. even though they have the longest playoff streak alive
Sidenote..Yates 31 yr playoff streak in jeopardy with a 1-4 (0-3) record going into Sat. game against 3-4 (2-2) Sharpstown.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 08:54 AM
Chill dude, I was taking your side. Read a little closer, I was responding to someone else.
Sorry!
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 09:33 AM
He writer didn't put a time frame on his request but you are not alltogether correct anyhow. I love to do this from time to time.
Permian has always been a large class school. It opened it's door in 1959.
In the decade of the 60s
Permians record was 82 wins, 28 losses, 2 ties.
They were in the championship 2 times winning 1.
In the decade of the 70s
Permians record was 101 wins, 14 losses, 1 tie.
They were in the final game 3 times, winning 1.
In the decade of the 80s(the one you give us credit for)
Permians record was 122 wins, 12 losses, 5 ties.
They were in the finals game 4 times, winning 3.
Even in the decade of the 90s, our demise decade, we finish with 77 wins 27 losses and 3 ties but in the first half of the decade we were 39 wins, 6 losses and 3 ties. With 2 state championships games, winning one of them.
We had a coaching change, in the 90s and as soon as the already developed program was depleted we did go upside down.
I think we have corrected the coaching program and the new coach is 28 wins and 8 losses. The last2 years hes 23 and 3.
So whatever standards are used to compare this sort of stuff for the 60s, 70s, 80s and yes for the first half of the 90s Permian needs not answer to anyone.(I guess thats what I'm doing now though) Thats the better part of four decades. As long as people throw Permians name out on these things then you only need to remember this bit of Permian history to answer your own question.
One other point. If you don't care to use the 80s because it's a long time ago, it's history. 2006 is also history, in truth last December is history.
For SLC is betterthan you and in case you missed it. Otherwise your young or unknowing. The book/Movie was written about the 85 team. By the 85 season Permian already had 4 large class State championships under their belt. They were already the State Standard. They were already famous, hence the book. If you feel like you have a argument for SLC stay away from the notion that the book made Permian anything. They were National Champs in one publication in 1972.
I have quoted my own post for you. It is a overview of Permians success for the better part of 4 decades. Thats 40 years!Thats documented history! I don't think SLC can top that. If they can, post the history, even add in small class for the last 40 years. If yours is bigger than mine you win. If you don't perfer the history route then as of today Permian is 8-0. Include last year and Permian is 20 and 1. I couldn't debate you at all if you jumped on the Plano or Judson bandwagons.
As a post script and maybe the most unique thing I can boast is that Permians 6 state championships were won by FIVE (5) different head coachs in a district that has won, by far the most large class state championships in this state. That number is Eighteen (18). Isn't that amazing?
If you just insist on a specific, short time frame that suits your needs and You can allow the same parameters for everyone and if classification has no bearing then look up Fort Hancocks claim to fame.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 09:37 AM
Sorry!
No Prob man
TWHSDad
10-25-2008, 09:37 AM
No bias if that's at all possible.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
We're not talking history (ie, how well programs have done last year, 10 years running, etc) we're talking present tense, to play on national stage now.
I'd pick ET first, TWHS second or as a contingent, best overall execution, two completely different styles that meet the talents of the players.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 09:40 AM
The fact is ...there are 2 books , 1 movie and 1 T.V. series. And Judson has also been getting it done longer. Check back in 10 years,
Yeah I forgot about the other book. "The secret of MOJO" by Regina Walker McCally No movie was made from it. It was a feel good book, it was too Hoosiers like.
Empire strikes back
10-25-2008, 09:49 AM
Don't forget either, that Permian also had 11 state championship appearances as well as Judson.
__________________
461-124-12
TheScout
10-25-2008, 09:54 AM
Don't forget either, that Permian also had 11 state championship appearances as well as Judson.
__________________
461-124-12
Ya I knew that.:notworthy I just went back as far as 1980. Judson had their first in 1983, and then 11 since then.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 10:20 AM
We're not talking history (ie, how well programs have done last year, 10 years running, etc) we're talking present tense, to play on national stage now.
I'd pick ET first, TWHS second or as a contingent, best overall execution, two completely different styles that meet the talents of the players.
Well if we are talking present tense then how many 5-A teams are undefeated right this second. If you want to talk present/ past tense then lets vote for ET or Katy. You would however, think the writer of this question would have already known who won last years Texas State Championships. PM him and let him know.
jrp83
10-25-2008, 10:32 AM
Don't forget either, that Permian also had 11 state championship appearances as well as Judson.
__________________
461-124-12
I fully respect what the Permian & Plano programs have accomplished over the decades, as well as SLC,Trinity, & Katy more recently. What I don't understand is why there are those who are reluctant to include Judson in the conversation when mentioning Texas' top programs. Judson has the most wins in the states largest classification over the last 32 yrs. They have played for multiple championships in the 80's, 90's, & 00's, winning at least one in each of those. I am not going to say that Judson is the absolute best all time, but they certainly deserve to be in any conversation when discussing the top programs in Texas. I also would love to see Judson play some of the top programs in other states. I think they would do just fine. As someone already mentioned, Texas has quite a few great programs that are more than capable of handling any team from any other state.
Go Rockets!!
TheScout
10-25-2008, 10:35 AM
I fully respect what the Permian & Plano programs have accomplished over the decades, as well as SLC,Trinity, & Katy more recently. What I don't understand is why there are those who are reluctant to include Judson in the conversation when mentioning Texas' top programs. Judson has the most wins in the states largest classification over the last 32 yrs. They have played for multiple championships in the 80's, 90's, & 00's, winning at least one in each of those. I am not going to say that Judson is the absolute best all time, but they certainly deserve to be in any conversation when discussing the top programs in Texas. I also would love to see Judson play some of the top programs in other states. I think they would do just fine. As someone already mentioned, Texas has quite a few great programs that are more than capable of handling any team from any other state.
Go Rockets!!
I got your back. I'm on here defending the Rockets:notworthy
jrock210
10-25-2008, 10:45 AM
We will neevr come to a conclusion. Personally I say it's between Judson and Permian. Not many people outside of Texas know who Judson is but they are consistently doing it still and (new piece of info most people don't know yet) Judson, last night, passed Permian for most consecutive winning seasons to take the number 2 spot overall with 33 and 37 (IDK who has it) being the #1 spot.
Judson has 6 state title...all in 5A
This is a 5A board so I believe that we are going off 5A (or at least the largest classification at the time the title was won) so Permian and Judson should be head to head with this. Permian is a storied team and it's not just because of the book. Both have been to known as power houses and if yall want to really decide if it's stuck between Judson and Permian than it would be Judson because Judson has beaten Permian once in state. Judson was given the title in 1988 after getting beat by Carter and you know the rest pretty much.... Permian won a tie breaker 1984 to win the championship.
Now in 1995,
Judson beat Permian 31-28. I'm not denying Permian but that's just fact. IDK of any other games the two teams have played against each other.
Now bring SLC into the discussion. SLC has dominated the past few years (not including this year) but if we are counting 5A titles they have 4. Not included in the convo anymore just on that number.
Trinity has a pretty good thing going also.
Trinity has beet to the title game 3 times (all against Judson I might add)
They are 2-1 against Judson and only have 3 state titles. People MIGHT list them in the talks just for that but again, their only wins were recent championships the past 3 seasons. IMO throw them out of this conversation.
Katy has won 4 in 5A after making 7 appearances (should have been 8 but in 98 ineligible player) Katy COULD be thrown into the discussion alongside Trinity but I still only see Permian and Judson at the top of the list.
Although I have thrown up a few numbers and said things about head to head I'm not really sure who to say deserves to be listed as THE Greatest Texas Program.
Thank you and ou sucks!
edit:
I just realized I forgot to throw Plano into the conversation but I didn't have much time. I'm sorry Plano fans.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 11:17 AM
I fully respect what the Permian & Plano programs have accomplished over the decades, as well as SLC,Trinity, & Katy more recently. What I don't understand is why there are those who are reluctant to include Judson in the conversation when mentioning Texas' top programs. Judson has the most wins in the states largest classification over the last 32 yrs. They have played for multiple championships in the 80's, 90's, & 00's, winning at least one in each of those. I am not going to say that Judson is the absolute best all time, but they certainly deserve to be in any conversation when discussing the top programs in Texas. I also would love to see Judson play some of the top programs in other states. I think they would do just fine. As someone already mentioned, Texas has quite a few great programs that are more than capable of handling any team from any other state.
Go Rockets!!
The only way I could give Judson more credit than I already do is to move there.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 12:32 PM
We will neevr come to a conclusion. Personally I say it's between Judson and Permian. Not many people outside of Texas know who Judson is but they are consistently doing it still and (new piece of info most people don't know yet) Judson, last night, passed Permian for most consecutive winning seasons to take the number 2 spot overall with 33 and 37 (IDK who has it) being the #1 spot.
Judson has 6 state title...all in 5A
This is a 5A board so I believe that we are going off 5A (or at least the largest classification at the time the title was won) so Permian and Judson should be head to head with this. Permian is a storied team and it's not just because of the book. Both have been to known as power houses and if yall want to really decide if it's stuck between Judson and Permian than it would be Judson because Judson has beaten Permian once in state. Judson was given the title in 1988 after getting beat by Carter and you know the rest pretty much.... Permian won a tie breaker 1984 to win the championship.
Now in 1995,
Judson beat Permian 31-28. I'm not denying Permian but that's just fact. IDK of any other games the two teams have played against each other.
Now bring SLC into the discussion. SLC has dominated the past few years (not including this year) but if we are counting 5A titles they have 4. Not included in the convo anymore just on that number.
Trinity has a pretty good thing going also.
Trinity has beet to the title game 3 times (all against Judson I might add)
They are 2-1 against Judson and only have 3 state titles. People MIGHT list them in the talks just for that but again, their only wins were recent championships the past 3 seasons. IMO throw them out of this conversation.
Katy has won 4 in 5A after making 7 appearances (should have been 8 but in 98 ineligible player) Katy COULD be thrown into the discussion alongside Trinity but I still only see Permian and Judson at the top of the list.
Although I have thrown up a few numbers and said things about head to head I'm not really sure who to say deserves to be listed as THE Greatest Texas Program.
Thank you and ou sucks!
edit:
I just realized I forgot to throw Plano into the conversation but I didn't have much time. I'm sorry Plano fans.
I can live with all you post but ask, In the 6 championships Judson won, they were the best in the state in beating everyone they played which included Permian. Do you agree?
In the 6 state championships Permian won they beat everyone, but in those 6 championship years Judson was beat out earlier by someone else. So would you agree that in Permians 6 championship years that they were better than Judson? Thats 6 -6.
So in the history of Judson they have been to the final game 11 times? Permian has also been there 11 times. Thats 11-11.
Permian also made it to the semi final game 4 other times but didn't make it to the finals. If you have that figure on Justins trips that ended in the semis tell me what it is.
Winning seasons in a row, A intangable! That has mostly to do with SOS. Although Permians district over the argued time period is stouter than the rest they did win a lot against El Paso teams. But in the 49 year history of Permian they have had 45 winning seasons if you can to count ties(5-5) as wins, if not take away about 6.
Here is another intangable, usless bit of information. Permain is 49 years old they have made the playoffs 29 times those coming from the toughest district in the state as documented by the total # of state championships. They did put together strings of 3,6,5 and as of last night 3 in a row. Can you give me the number of times Judson has gone to the playoffs in their history? Can you tell me, in the years that Judson didn't make the playoffs, did anyone else in Judsons district win the state crown? If so, how many times?
Katy shoulda in 98. Permian shoulda in 93. Unbeated in 93 the uil booted Permian from the playoffs, (unlike what they did to Carter)(You gained from this, didn't you) for the use of a third string guard transfer from OHS.
NHB06
10-25-2008, 12:36 PM
We will neevr come to a conclusion. Personally I say it's between Judson and Permian. Not many people outside of Texas know who Judson is but they are consistently doing it still and (new piece of info most people don't know yet) Judson, last night, passed Permian for most consecutive winning seasons to take the number 2 spot overall with 33 and 37 (IDK who has it) being the #1 spot.
Judson has 6 state title...all in 5A
This is a 5A board so I believe that we are going off 5A (or at least the largest classification at the time the title was won) so Permian and Judson should be head to head with this. Permian is a storied team and it's not just because of the book. Both have been to known as power houses and if yall want to really decide if it's stuck between Judson and Permian than it would be Judson because Judson has beaten Permian once in state. Judson was given the title in 1988 after getting beat by Carter and you know the rest pretty much.... Permian won a tie breaker 1984 to win the championship.
Now in 1995,
Judson beat Permian 31-28. I'm not denying Permian but that's just fact. IDK of any other games the two teams have played against each other.
Now bring SLC into the discussion. SLC has dominated the past few years (not including this year) but if we are counting 5A titles they have 4. Not included in the convo anymore just on that number.
Trinity has a pretty good thing going also.
Trinity has beet to the title game 3 times (all against Judson I might add)
They are 2-1 against Judson and only have 3 state titles. People MIGHT list them in the talks just for that but again, their only wins were recent championships the past 3 seasons. IMO throw them out of this conversation.
Katy has won 4 in 5A after making 7 appearances (should have been 8 but in 98 ineligible player) Katy COULD be thrown into the discussion alongside Trinity but I still only see Permian and Judson at the top of the list.
Although I have thrown up a few numbers and said things about head to head I'm not really sure who to say deserves to be listed as THE Greatest Texas Program.
Thank you and ou sucks!
edit:
I just realized I forgot to throw Plano into the conversation but I didn't have much time. I'm sorry Plano fans.
That's OK. We forgive you. Just remember that Plano has 7 state titles in all classifications. We also have 700+ all time wins.
drgnbkr
10-25-2008, 12:45 PM
We will neevr come to a conclusion. Personally I say it's between Judson and Permian. Not many people outside of Texas know who Judson is but they are consistently doing it still and (new piece of info most people don't know yet) Judson, last night, passed Permian for most consecutive winning seasons to take the number 2 spot overall with 33 and 37 (IDK who has it) being the #1 spot.
Judson has 6 state title...all in 5A
This is a 5A board so I believe that we are going off 5A (or at least the largest classification at the time the title was won) so Permian and Judson should be head to head with this. Permian is a storied team and it's not just because of the book. Both have been to known as power houses and if yall want to really decide if it's stuck between Judson and Permian than it would be Judson because Judson has beaten Permian once in state. Judson was given the title in 1988 after getting beat by Carter and you know the rest pretty much.... Permian won a tie breaker 1984 to win the championship.
Now in 1995,
Judson beat Permian 31-28. I'm not denying Permian but that's just fact. IDK of any other games the two teams have played against each other.
Now bring SLC into the discussion. SLC has dominated the past few years (not including this year) but if we are counting 5A titles they have 4. Not included in the convo anymore just on that number.
Trinity has a pretty good thing going also.
Trinity has beet to the title game 3 times (all against Judson I might add)
They are 2-1 against Judson and only have 3 state titles. People MIGHT list them in the talks just for that but again, their only wins were recent championships the past 3 seasons. IMO throw them out of this conversation.
Katy has won 4 in 5A after making 7 appearances (should have been 8 but in 98 ineligible player) Katy COULD be thrown into the discussion alongside Trinity but I still only see Permian and Judson at the top of the list.
Although I have thrown up a few numbers and said things about head to head I'm not really sure who to say deserves to be listed as THE Greatest Texas Program.
Thank you and ou sucks!
edit:
I just realized I forgot to throw Plano into the conversation but I didn't have much time. I'm sorry Plano fans.
Again with all due respect to Permian, Carroll is the winningest program in the state over the past 20 years, not just the past few years. Permian hasn't won a title in 20 years, correct? With the respect that is due the record Permian has, are they relevant today? I still say it is a circular argument, and that you have to throw a number of teams in the hat; Carroll, Plano, Permian, Trinity, Judson, Katy based on titles won and consistent high level of play over a long period. These are programs, not just teams.
The fact is ...there are 2 books , 1 movie and 1 T.V. series. And Judson has also been getting it done longer. Check back in 10 years,
The fact is... Whats a book doing for you... A tv series.... BWAHAA.... Your making my point for me boys.... Without that stuff, who would hear of Permian.... And no need to check back in 10 years... Carroll has owned you on the field.... I wont knock their success and you can make a case for your team and I will make the case for mine...
Very true. Texas has several programs at the 5A level that on any given year could dominate some of the top schools from other parts.
Agreed.. Nothing wrong with making the case for your team.
For SLC is betterthan you and in case you missed it. Otherwise your young or unknowing. The book/Movie was written about the 85 team. By the 85 season Permian already had 4 large class State championships under their belt. They were already the State Standard. They were already famous, hence the book. If you feel like you have a argument for SLC stay away from the notion that the book made Permian anything. They were National Champs in one publication in 1972.
I have quoted my own post for you. It is a overview of Permians success for the better part of 4 decades. Thats 40 years!Thats documented history! I don't think SLC can top that. If they can, post the history, even add in small class for the last 40 years. If yours is bigger than mine you win. If you don't perfer the history route then as of today Permian is 8-0. Include last year and Permian is 20 and 1. I couldn't debate you at all if you jumped on the Plano or Judson bandwagons.
As a post script and maybe the most unique thing I can boast is that Permians 6 state championships were won by FIVE (5) different head coachs in a district that has won, by far the most large class state championships in this state. That number is Eighteen (18). Isn't that amazing?
If you just insist on a specific, short time frame that suits your needs and You can allow the same parameters for everyone and if classification has no bearing then look up Fort Hancocks claim to fame.
One word... SCOREBOARD.
DownSouth
10-25-2008, 01:16 PM
Thanks for all the answers everyone.
From what it seems like:
Permian gets the most historical respect and SLC gets props for the last 15 or so years for their run, above the rest.
Seems like Katy and Plano are some of the teams you guys mention most, but never as THE team. Trinity seems to be the team everyone looks at now to take over now that SLC has slipped just enough for others to rise up.
Judson seems like the team that's always around but never fields a consensus #1 team so they get overlooked a little.
I figure the next time a Florida-Texas game comes up that's its good to know a little Texas HS football history, ecspecially being on a Texas board. Thanks for all of the different type's of answers.
We're not talking history (ie, how well programs have done last year, 10 years running, etc) we're talking present tense, to play on national stage now.
I'd pick ET first, TWHS second or as a contingent, best overall execution, two completely different styles that meet the talents of the players.
You quoted it... Read the criteria HE stated and then state your case..
I fully respect what the Permian & Plano programs have accomplished over the decades, as well as SLC,Trinity, & Katy more recently. What I don't understand is why there are those who are reluctant to include Judson in the conversation when mentioning Texas' top programs. Judson has the most wins in the states largest classification over the last 32 yrs. They have played for multiple championships in the 80's, 90's, & 00's, winning at least one in each of those. I am not going to say that Judson is the absolute best all time, but they certainly deserve to be in any conversation when discussing the top programs in Texas. I also would love to see Judson play some of the top programs in other states. I think they would do just fine. As someone already mentioned, Texas has quite a few great programs that are more than capable of handling any team from any other state.
Go Rockets!!
I believe Judsons in the conversation, But HE did not specify classification.
We will neevr come to a conclusion. Personally I say it's between Judson and Permian. Not many people outside of Texas know who Judson is but they are consistently doing it still and (new piece of info most people don't know yet) Judson, last night, passed Permian for most consecutive winning seasons to take the number 2 spot overall with 33 and 37 (IDK who has it) being the #1 spot.
Judson has 6 state title...all in 5A
This is a 5A board so I believe that we are going off 5A (or at least the largest classification at the time the title was won) so Permian and Judson should be head to head with this. Permian is a storied team and it's not just because of the book. Both have been to known as power houses and if yall want to really decide if it's stuck between Judson and Permian than it would be Judson because Judson has beaten Permian once in state. Judson was given the title in 1988 after getting beat by Carter and you know the rest pretty much.... Permian won a tie breaker 1984 to win the championship.
Now in 1995,
Judson beat Permian 31-28. I'm not denying Permian but that's just fact. IDK of any other games the two teams have played against each other.
Now bring SLC into the discussion. SLC has dominated the past few years (not including this year) but if we are counting 5A titles they have 4. Not included in the convo anymore just on that number.Trinity has a pretty good thing going also.
Trinity has beet to the title game 3 times (all against Judson I might add)
They are 2-1 against Judson and only have 3 state titles. People MIGHT list them in the talks just for that but again, their only wins were recent championships the past 3 seasons. IMO throw them out of this conversation.
Katy has won 4 in 5A after making 7 appearances (should have been 8 but in 98 ineligible player) Katy COULD be thrown into the discussion alongside Trinity but I still only see Permian and Judson at the top of the list.
Although I have thrown up a few numbers and said things about head to head I'm not really sure who to say deserves to be listed as THE Greatest Texas Program.
Thank you and ou sucks!
edit:
I just realized I forgot to throw Plano into the conversation but I didn't have much time. I'm sorry Plano fans.
Again, with all due respect to Judson, cause they do belong in the conersation, HE never said 5A... re read it please... I'm basing this off the thread that HE started and what HE listed as his criteria.. So Carroll IS most definately in the conversation my freind..
I can live with all you post but ask, In the 6 championships Judson won, they were the best in the state in beating everyone they played which included Permian. Do you agree?
In the 6 state championships Permian won they beat everyone, but in those 6 championship years Judson was beat out earlier by someone else. So would you agree that in Permians 6 championship years that they were better than Judson? Thats 6 -6.
So in the history of Judson they have been to the final game 11 times? Permian has also been there 11 times. Thats 11-11.
Permian also made it to the semi final game 4 other times but didn't make it to the finals. If you have that figure on Justins trips that ended in the semis tell me what it is.
Winning seasons in a row, A intangable! That has mostly to do with SOS. Although Permians district over the argued time period is stouter than the rest they did win a lot against El Paso teams. But in the 49 year history of Permian they have had 45 winning seasons if you can to count ties(5-5) as wins, if not take away about 6.
Here is another intangable, usless bit of information. Permain is 49 years old they have made the playoffs 29 times those coming from the toughest district in the state as documented by the total # of state championships. They did put together strings of 3,6,5 and as of last night 3 in a row. Can you give me the number of times Judson has gone to the playoffs in their history? Can you tell me, in the years that Judson didn't make the playoffs, did anyone else in Judsons district win the state crown? If so, how many times?
Katy shoulda in 98. Permian shoulda in 93. Unbeated in 93 the uil booted Permian from the playoffs, (unlike what they did to Carter)(You gained from this, didn't you) for the use of a third string guard transfer from OHS.
Again, what have you done for me lately... The last 20 yrs or so... SCOREBOARD..
That's OK. We forgive you. Just remember that Plano has 7 state titles in all classifications. We also have 700+ all time wins.
And just as others, Plano is in the discussion... Judson, Permian..etc..
Again with all due respect to Permian, Carroll is the winningest program in the state over the past 20 years, not just the past few years. Permian hasn't won a title in 20 years, correct? With the respect that is due the record Permian has, are they relevant today? I still say it is a circular argument, and that you have to throw a number of teams in the hat; Carroll, Plano, Permian, Trinity, Judson, Katy based on titles won and consistent high level of play over a long period. These are programs, not just teams.
Relavency is a key also... And I agree with your statement of all the other teams thrown into a hat and pick one, proly couldnt go wrong with any.. I will state that SCOREBOARD has alot to do with my arguement for Carroll and what they have done over the last 20 yrs... Theyve crushed alot the teams mentioned.. Ie.. Plano, and Permian...
MOJO_MAGIC
10-25-2008, 01:32 PM
There's a reason that a best selling book and then movie was written/made about Permian High School football. Obviously, as a graduate of Permian, I'm biased. But, it is a simple fact that Permian is the ONLY high school football program in Texas that was researched, written about in Friday Night Lights, and then became a hit movie. When you talk about tradition, consistency for a long period of time, and titles, Permian has to be the one.
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 01:36 PM
The fact is... Whats a book doing for you... A tv series.... BWAHAA.... Your making my point for me boys.... Without that stuff, who would hear of Permian.... And no need to check back in 10 years... Carroll has owned you on the field.... I wont knock their success and you can make a case for your team and I will make the case for mine...
The sad fact is that at some point your beloved Dragons will end up in the same boat as us, You will loose several head coaches over the years to possibly D2 or D1 Colleges and one day an assistant coach takes over and ruins the program. It will happen just give it time, Then the search starts for a coaching staff because all of the previous staff has moved on. Years later you get end up with a good coaching staff and the program starts taking steps in the right direction but by this time newer programs are claiming they are better over the past decade, You then argue that you have been more prolific over the entire history of your program but they just want to include their numbers since XXXX. No doubt SLC has been a driving force in HS football but I say check back in 20 years and we will crunch the numbers then. Oh and no it hasn't been 20 years since we won a state title, Math is obviously not your subject.
Katyexrb29
10-25-2008, 01:39 PM
Thanks for all the answers everyone.
From what it seems like:
Permian gets the most historical respect and SLC gets props for the last 15 or so years for their run, above the rest.
Seems like Katy and Plano are some of the teams you guys mention most, but never as THE team. Trinity seems to be the team everyone looks at now to take over now that SLC has slipped just enough for others to rise up.
Judson seems like the team that's always around but never fields a consensus #1 team so they get overlooked a little.
I figure the next time a Florida-Texas game comes up that's its good to know a little Texas HS football history, ecspecially being on a Texas board. Thanks for all of the different type's of answers.
Katy was THE team last year. There young this year but come next they should be right back in the limelight. When has Katy ever not been THE team? Sorry biased:D
grayowl60
10-25-2008, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=SLCisbetterthanyou;948171]Again, what have you done for me lately... The last 20 yrs or so... SCOREBOARD..[/QUOTE
;)....:eek:....:D
NHB06
10-25-2008, 01:43 PM
Relavency is a key also... And I agree with your statement of all the other teams thrown into a hat and pick one, proly couldnt go wrong with any.. I will state that SCOREBOARD has alot to do with my arguement for Carroll and what they have done over the last 20 yrs... Theyve crushed alot the teams mentioned.. Ie.. Plano, and Permian...
SLC did not crush Plano. SLC won the game in 2005, but Plano put quite a scare in the Dragons. In the same regard, Permian has never beaten Plano, but that does not negate everything Permian has accomplished nor make Plano a better program than Permian.
There's a reason that a best selling book and then movie was written/made about Permian High School football. Obviously, as a graduate of Permian, I'm biased. But, it is a simple fact that Permian is the ONLY high school football program in Texas that was researched, written about in Friday Night Lights, and then became a hit movie. When you talk about tradition, consistency for a long period of time, and titles, Permian has to be the one.
I'm including Permian in my discussion.. PERIOD. I'm just saying its been awile..:cool:
The sad fact is that at some point your beloved Dragons will end up in the same boat as us, You will loose several head coaches over the years to possibly D2 or D1 Colleges and one day an assistant coach takes over and ruins the program. It will happen just give it time, Then the search starts for a coaching staff because all of the previous staff has moved on. Years later you get end up with a good coaching staff and the program starts taking steps in the right direction but by this time newer programs are claiming they are better over the past decade, You then argue that you have been more prolific over the entire history of your program but they just want to include their numbers since XXXX. No doubt SLC has been a driving force in HS football but I say check back in 20 years and we will crunch the numbers then. Oh and no it hasn't been 20 years since we won a state title, Math is obviously not your subject.
Help me out here.. What like 17 yrs...:rolleyes:
SLC did not crush Plano. SLC won the game in 2005, but Plano put quite a scare in the Dragons. In the same regard, Permian has never beaten Plano, but that does not negate everything Permian has accomplished nor make Plano a better program than Permian.
Your right.. A 37-27 win is not crushing... Still a pretty good whipping... And just show me what Plano and Permian has done over the last 20 or so years... Listen I believe there are several teams in the discussion, I'm only goona make the case for mine..
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Your right.. A 37-27 win is not crushing... Still a pretty good whipping... And just show me what Plano and Permian has done over the last 20 or so years... Listen I believe there are several teams in the discussion, I'm only goona make the case for mine..
Okay, Youre right and everyone else is wrong. All hail the SLC Dragons as the best HS football the world has or will ever see.:rolleyes:
Empire strikes back
10-25-2008, 02:04 PM
Hey SLCisbetterthanyou, I like your avater! I like how you represent a former Permian player Roy Williams!
___________________
461-124-12
Okay, Youre right and everyone else is wrong. All hail the SLC Dragons as the best HS football the world has or will ever see.:rolleyes:
The everyone else your talking about can make their case.. But dont start out by ripping me for stating mine, and then you dont like it when I point out other facts about yours...;)
Hey SLCisbetterthanyou, I like your avater! I like how you represent a former Permian player Roy Williams!
___________________
461-124-12
Abosolutly... Williams is a beast... As a UT Alum, I will always root for the good guys...:D
t-long20
10-25-2008, 02:14 PM
1.SLC
2.Katy
3.Judson
4.Permian
5.Euless Trinity
Plano?
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:23 PM
Hey SLCisbetterthanyou, I like your avater! I like how you represent a former Permian player Roy Williams!
___________________
461-124-12
I can just hear it now if Roy had gone to SLC he would have gone on to play in the NFL.:rolleyes:
I can just hear it now if Roy had gone to SLC he would have gone on to play in the NFL.:rolleyes:
What???? Ummm, actually he is in the NFL....:confused:
NHB06
10-25-2008, 02:29 PM
Top 5 Greatest High School Programs (In no particular order): Permian, Plano, Judson, Katy, SLC
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:30 PM
The everyone else your talking about can make their case.. But dont start out by ripping me for stating mine, and then you dont like it when I point out other facts about yours...;)
Hey I can live with the fact that we had some bad years(decade), I am just trying to point out that it will happen to SLC and ET. Not trying to start a pi**ing match with you, I too like SLC but I am a Mojo fan through and through just as you are a loyal Dragon fan. We are all loyal to our teams but the common denominator here is we all love Texas High School Football which is by far the best and most competitive football in the country. ;)
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:31 PM
Top 5 Greatest High School Programs (In no particular order): Permian, Plano, Judson, Katy, SLC
Agreed!
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:32 PM
What???? Ummm, actually he is in the NFL....:confused:
I was being a smart a**;) I was just having a little fun.
ftballin11
10-25-2008, 02:32 PM
It depends how you catagorize Best program. If its all time, Id go with Judson,
More recent SLC Katy and Trinity come to mind. The past 10 years Its Katy for sure, The past 5 Years SLC, The past 3 years You could pick any of the 3.
I dont like Trinity being in this dicussion because they have been doing it for 4 years. Even Midland Lee was great for 3 years.
If your going for recent
1. Katy
2. SLC (They are slipping with new coaching)
3. Trinty
But really these teams have the capability of winning state every year and have a 50/50 chance against each other.
Permian_Fan
10-25-2008, 02:33 PM
I am biased of course but this is the best overall answer.
+1 on this one.
Granted there are some more dominant teams today, but with exception a single 8-10 year span (late 90's, early 00's) of sub-par performances, Permian has always been extremely competitive.
Permian has "appeared" in a DOZEN state title games...all in the highest classification. (having won 6)
'65, '68, '70, '75, '77, '78, '84, '85, '88, '89, '91, '95
However, I will state there have been VERY few blue chip recruits...and even fewer who went on to play pro football. Honestly, I can think of two players that went pro [Brit Hager (Eagles), Stoney Case (Cardinals)]
In Odessa, high school football was(is) a way of life. There's not much else out there. Many, if not most, of their games are won with pure determination...rather than superior athletic ability. Often, they are undersized, and facing better athletes...and on paper there seems to be little chance for victory. Yet, somehow they still win. To me this adds significantly to their greatness.
As stated by others, I recognize that Texas has many great football programs. But I have traveled around alot and pretty much anyone who knows football knows Odessa Permian.
Top 5 Greatest High School Programs (In no particular order): Permian, Plano, Judson, Katy, SLC
Agreed, except I put Carroll first inthat no particular order....:p:D
Hey I can live with the fact that we had some bad years(decade), I am just trying to point out that it will happen to SLC and ET. Not trying to start a pi**ing match with you, I too like SLC but I am a Mojo fan through and through just as you are a loyal Dragon fan. We are all loyal to our teams but the common denominator here is we all love Texas High School Football which is by far the best and most competitive football in the country. ;)
Agreed 100%...:notworthy
I was being a smart a**;) I was just having a little fun.
I figured, thats why I had the qusetion mark... I knew there was no way a permian fan didnt know that...lol
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 02:51 PM
1.SLC
2.Katy
3.Judson
4.Permian
5.Euless Trinity
Plano?
i can agree with that Katy goes before us cuz they kicked our @ss a couple times and SLC they can have #1:rolleyes::D
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 02:53 PM
I figured, thats why I had the qusetion mark... I knew there was no way a permian fan didnt know that...lol
LOL, I watched Roy play HS ball and I remember him dropping so many passes that he should have caught but yet catching many he shouldnt have.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 02:56 PM
Katy was THE team last year. There young this year but come next they should be right back in the limelight. When has Katy ever not been THE team? Sorry biased:D
Really? I remember someone winning a state title in a BIGGER classification. Maybe Katy was THE team for people in Katy.
TheScout
10-25-2008, 03:10 PM
It depends how you catagorize Best program. If its all time, Id go with Judson,
More recent SLC Katy and Trinity come to mind. The past 10 years Its Katy for sure, The past 5 Years SLC, The past 3 years You could pick any of the 3.
I dont like Trinity being in this dicussion because they have been doing it for 4 years. Even Midland Lee was great for 3 years.
If your going for recent
1. Katy
2. SLC (They are slipping with new coaching)
3. Trinty
But really these teams have the capability of winning state every year and have a 50/50 chance against each other.
Maybe you need to do a little more research. Sure Trinity has only won state titles for the last few years, but they have been in the mix to do so since the 70's. Not as prominent as the Plano, Permian, Judson etc, but always a strong team. Not just last 4 years:rolleyes:
309-135-6
7 state semis or better last 15 years
Winning record against Permian in playoffs
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 04:19 PM
The fact is... Whats a book doing for you... A tv series.... BWAHAA.... Your making my point for me boys.... Without that stuff, who would hear of Permian.... And no need to check back in 10 years... Carroll has owned you on the field.... I wont knock their success and you can make a case for your team and I will make the case for mine...
I gave you credit for just being unknowing. Now I don't need to. Permian was what it was before the book. When someone writes a book about your team it will be because of what your team has done. The book did not help Permian to win 4 championships before the book or the two after. If you think SLC or Judson has owned us check Austin Reagan and Plaino Plano. We were owned by others while your team was playing 2-A ball, so you didn't get their first. None the less for 6 years Permian was the best in the state and two of those the best in the nation. In Texas that reward has never been given to a 2-A, 3-A or 4-A school. Permian won the last one in 1991 that was 16 complete football seasons ago.
A coaching change caused the slump. Agreed that is nothing but old history. I view the intent of this string was to talk about programs. Do you think "programs" to mean today, last week, last year last 10 years last 20 years last 40 years? Because anything beyond today is history and has no bearing on football tommorrow. Do you think the originator of this string wants to include 2-A, 3-A, and 4-A teams? If that your thought do you suppose he wants inclusion of 6 man?
Your last title was in 2006. You lost a great coach and today face a unknown much as Permian in the mid nintys. Maybe the new SLC guy has it, maybe not but you must agree today your team looks a little different. But that too is history and you don't recognize history. Perhaps selective history is your claim.
Give the trophy to ET/Katy they won the most recent and thats just barely history.
Oh and ask someone you trust if the name Permian was anything before the book.
Texas Bob
10-25-2008, 04:19 PM
There's a reason that a best selling book and then movie was written/made about Permian High School football. Obviously, as a graduate of Permian, I'm biased. But, it is a simple fact that Permian is the ONLY high school football program in Texas that was researched, written about in Friday Night Lights, and then became a hit movie. When you talk about tradition, consistency for a long period of time, and titles, Permian has to be the one.
I'm not a Permian fan and you are correct.
I'm not a Permian fan and you are correct.
I'm not a Permian fan either and I agree as well
TheScout
10-25-2008, 05:11 PM
I gave you credit for just being unknowing. Now I don't need to. Permian was what it was before the book. When someone writes a book about your team it will be because of what your team has done. The book did not help Permian to win 4 championships before the book or the two after. If you think SLC or Judson has owned us check Austin Reagan and Plaino Plano. We were owned by others while your team was playing 2-A ball, so you didn't get their first. None the less for 6 years Permian was the best in the state and two of those the best in the nation. In Texas that reward has never been given to a 2-A, 3-A or 4-A school. Permian won the last one in 1991 that was 16 complete football seasons ago.
A coaching change caused the slump. Agreed that is nothing but old history. I view the intent of this string was to talk about programs. Do you think "programs" to mean today, last week, last year last 10 years last 20 years last 40 years? Because anything beyond today is history and has no bearing on football tommorrow. Do you think the originator of this string wants to include 2-A, 3-A, and 4-A teams? If that your thought do you suppose he wants inclusion of 6 man?
Your last title was in 2006. You lost a great coach and today face a unknown much as Permian in the mid nintys. Maybe the new SLC guy has it, maybe not but you must agree today your team looks a little different. But that too is history and you don't recognize history. Perhaps selective history is your claim.
Give the trophy to ET/Katy they won the most recent and thats just barely history.
Oh and ask someone you trust if the name Permian was anything before the book.
I dont know if many know this, but the District Superintendent of HEB ISD(Trinity / Bell) is Gene Buinger, the same Gene Buinger that was the superintendent of Odessa. He had to convince a friend of his, Bissenger, to come chronical Permian one year, and then wright about it. He was reluctant at first but did it anyway. He said it was a great career decision afterwards. From 1989 to 1996, Dr. Buinger served as superintendent of schools in Odessa, Texas. As a result of the book he got to meet Mike Wallace of Sixty Minutes when they came to Odessa to do a story about high school football in Texas. Prior to leaving Odessa, Dr. B encouraged the board of trustees to acquire the legal rights to school mascots in anticipation of the filming of a movie based on Friday Night Lights.
Fan4Life
10-25-2008, 05:23 PM
I gave you credit for just being unknowing. Now I don't need to. Permian was what it was before the book. When someone writes a book about your team it will be because of what your team has done. The book did not help Permian to win 4 championships before the book or the two after. If you think SLC or Judson has owned us check Austin Reagan and Plaino Plano. We were owned by others while your team was playing 2-A ball, so you didn't get their first. None the less for 6 years Permian was the best in the state and two of those the best in the nation. In Texas that reward has never been given to a 2-A, 3-A or 4-A school. Permian won the last one in 1991 that was 16 complete football seasons ago.
A coaching change caused the slump. Agreed that is nothing but old history. I view the intent of this string was to talk about programs. Do you think "programs" to mean today, last week, last year last 10 years last 20 years last 40 years? Because anything beyond today is history and has no bearing on football tommorrow. Do you think the originator of this string wants to include 2-A, 3-A, and 4-A teams? If that your thought do you suppose he wants inclusion of 6 man?
Your last title was in 2006. You lost a great coach and today face a unknown much as Permian in the mid nintys. Maybe the new SLC guy has it, maybe not but you must agree today your team looks a little different. But that too is history and you don't recognize history. Perhaps selective history is your claim.
Give the trophy to ET/Katy they won the most recent and thats just barely history.
Oh and ask someone you trust if the name Permian was anything before the book.
Katy didnt win the most recent! What about 59:)
I would say if a team could represent Texas you would have to look at each individual year to get the best team.
08-Trinity
07- Katy
06- SLC
As far programs - the list gets longer
DaSho03Champs
10-25-2008, 05:36 PM
2003: The Fighting Mustangs Of North Shore High School!!
Fan4Life
10-25-2008, 05:38 PM
2003: The Fighting Mustangs Of North Shore High School!!
We are talking about the best overall program of all time, but yes the 03 Mustangs were one of the best units.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 05:42 PM
I dont know if many know this, but the District Superintendent of HEB ISD(Trinity / Bell) is Gene Buinger, the same Gene Buinger that was the superintendent of Odessa. He had to convince a friend of his, Bissenger, to come chronical Permian one year, and then wright about it. He was reluctant at first but did it anyway. He said it was a great career decision afterwards. From 1989 to 1996, Dr. Buinger served as superintendent of schools in Odessa, Texas. As a result of the book he got to meet Mike Wallace of Sixty Minutes when they came to Odessa to do a story about high school football in Texas. Prior to leaving Odessa, Dr. B encouraged the board of trustees to acquire the legal rights to school mascots in anticipation of the filming of a movie based on Friday Night Lights.No I didn't know where he had gone but I do know why he left.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 05:43 PM
I would say if a team could represent Texas you would have to look at each individual year to get the best team.
08-Trinity
07- Katy
06- SLC
As far programs - the list gets longer
I'll go with that!
Really? I remember someone winning a state title in a BIGGER classification. Maybe Katy was THE team for people in Katy.
Bigger classification??? Whats that??? Explain...
I gave you credit for just being unknowing. Now I don't need to. Permian was what it was before the book. When someone writes a book about your team it will be because of what your team has done. The book did not help Permian to win 4 championships before the book or the two after. If you think SLC or Judson has owned us check Austin Reagan and Plaino Plano. We were owned by others while your team was playing 2-A ball, so you didn't get their first. None the less for 6 years Permian was the best in the state and two of those the best in the nation. In Texas that reward has never been given to a 2-A, 3-A or 4-A school. Permian won the last one in 1991 that was 16 complete football seasons ago.
A coaching change caused the slump. Agreed that is nothing but old history. I view the intent of this string was to talk about programs. Do you think "programs" to mean today, last week, last year last 10 years last 20 years last 40 years? Because anything beyond today is history and has no bearing on football tommorrow. Do you think the originator of this string wants to include 2-A, 3-A, and 4-A teams? If that your thought do you suppose he wants inclusion of 6 man?
Your last title was in 2006. You lost a great coach and today face a unknown much as Permian in the mid nintys. Maybe the new SLC guy has it, maybe not but you must agree today your team looks a little different. But that too is history and you don't recognize history. Perhaps selective history is your claim.
Give the trophy to ET/Katy they won the most recent and thats just barely history.
Oh and ask someone you trust if the name Permian was anything before the book.
Dude, I'm 37 years old... I have been a high school football fan for a long time.. Didnt just start the other day, I know why the book was written and its because of the great history of the Permian program... And I am personally proud of your program, being that its a Texas school.. I am only saying that today who around the world would know of Permian if the book hadnt been written or more so, the movie and series?.... I appreciate the movie alot and it will still give me chills if I were to watch it right now.. I'm just saying in high school football circles around the United States, we are known because of what we did on the field(because there is no movie or books about Carroll)... I have been to Mississippi where my dad lives and watched Hattiesburg play, and had several people comment on the Dragon sticker on my truck... They new that because of what Carroll did on the field, not because they saw it in a movie or series, thats all..
Biggems
10-25-2008, 06:03 PM
+1 on this one.
Granted there are some more dominant teams today, but with exception a single 8-10 year span (late 90's, early 00's) of sub-par performances, Permian has always been extremely competitive.
Permian has "appeared" in a DOZEN state title games...all in the highest classification. (having won 6)
'65, '68, '70, '75, '77, '78, '84, '85, '88, '89, '91, '95
However, I will state there have been VERY few blue chip recruits...and even fewer who went on to play pro football. Honestly, I can think of two players that went pro [Brit Hager (Eagles), Stoney Case (Cardinals)]
In Odessa, high school football was(is) a way of life. There's not much else out there. Many, if not most, of their games are won with pure determination...rather than superior athletic ability. Often, they are undersized, and facing better athletes...and on paper there seems to be little chance for victory. Yet, somehow they still win. To me this adds significantly to their greatness.
As stated by others, I recognize that Texas has many great football programs. But I have traveled around alot and pretty much anyone who knows football knows Odessa Permian.
Judson has gone to 13 State Championships in the highest classification, having won 6. Judson also has just extended their streak of winning seasons to 32, tying you guys for second place.
Also, in our only head to head matchup for the title, we beat you. In fact we own the teams in your area in the Finals.....3-0 vs OP, Midland Lee, and Midland.
This debate will go on and on, with the homers of the elite refusing to budge from their stance. As much as a Judson homer as I am, I cannot say for certain that Judson is the greatest of all-time in the state. However, I can say with complete certainty that they are in the top 5 somewhere, along with Plano, Odessa Permian, SLC, and Katy. Judson, Plano, and OP get the nod for success over longevity, while SLC and Katy have been the two most dominant teams for the last decade. All the Trinity fans will cry foul and be sour towards me....but there is no need for that. I put you guys at #6.
ROCKET PRIDE
Permian_Fan
10-25-2008, 06:19 PM
I think the one certainty is we will never a get a concensus :)
However, I think Permian has done MORE with LESS than any other program in the state. Meaning that we routinely take very average group of players and mold them into a very competitve TEAM.
That is why I love High School football. The kids play with so much "heart"! At this level, heart can beat talent, size, and even coaching.
DrEdward
10-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Texas has some great programs and it is virtually impossible to select a single "greatest" one. I think one has to look over a period of time to render a judgement on the question, not success in a single season. By that standard, probably the best known is Permian's, at least on a national level. However, over a twenty year period, the program at Carroll certainly has been in the spotlight both in the state and externally. Takes nothing away from Katy, which obviously has a run going as well on the stage or from Judson. Trinity may have one starting. In a smaller classification, Celina has been pretty impressive as well. HP has been consistently good for a long time, although I am not sure I would put them in the greatest category, but someone else might.
ftballin11
10-25-2008, 06:43 PM
Maybe you need to do a little more research. Sure Trinity has only won state titles for the last few years, but they have been in the mix to do so since the 70's. Not as prominent as the Plano, Permian, Judson etc, but always a strong team. Not just last 4 years:rolleyes:
309-135-6
7 state semis or better last 15 yearsWinning record against Permian in playoffs
Ok how bout 7 state finals in the last 11 year, with 4 titles and 1 title forfeited. Oh and undefeated against Judson lol:cool:.
goodolboy
10-25-2008, 06:53 PM
Duncanville IS the "City of Champions"! ;)
jrock210
10-25-2008, 07:07 PM
I can live with all you post but ask, In the 6 championships Judson won, they were the best in the state in beating everyone they played which included Permian. Do you agree?
In the 6 state championships Permian won they beat everyone, but in those 6 championship years Judson was beat out earlier by someone else. So would you agree that in Permians 6 championship years that they were better than Judson? Thats 6 -6.
So in the history of Judson they have been to the final game 11 times? Permian has also been there 11 times. Thats 11-11.
Permian also made it to the semi final game 4 other times but didn't make it to the finals. If you have that figure on Justins trips that ended in the semis tell me what it is.
Winning seasons in a row, A intangable! That has mostly to do with SOS. Although Permians district over the argued time period is stouter than the rest they did win a lot against El Paso teams. But in the 49 year history of Permian they have had 45 winning seasons if you can to count ties(5-5) as wins, if not take away about 6.
Here is another intangable, usless bit of information. Permain is 49 years old they have made the playoffs 29 times those coming from the toughest district in the state as documented by the total # of state championships. They did put together strings of 3,6,5 and as of last night 3 in a row. Can you give me the number of times Judson has gone to the playoffs in their history? Can you tell me, in the years that Judson didn't make the playoffs, did anyone else in Judsons district win the state crown? If so, how many times?
Katy shoulda in 98. Permian shoulda in 93. Unbeated in 93 the uil booted Permian from the playoffs, (unlike what they did to Carter)(You gained from this, didn't you) for the use of a third string guard transfer from OHS.
Judson is 49 years old also (just some added info) They have been to the playoffs 28 (29 times if you count this season) and in 1973 Judson missed the playoffs as Cuerro (3A) won State and was in Judson's district. That's the only year that they went to state when they missed the playoffs although in 95 (I believe) Roosevelt and Judson both won state. Judson lost the title in 88 but still got listed as champion. Judson got lucky oh well....get over it. Carter cheated and we made it to state still so we deserved the titled. I still count it because it was earned.
Again, with all due respect to Judson, cause they do belong in the conersation, HE never said 5A... re read it please... I'm basing this off the thread that HE started and what HE listed as his criteria.. So Carroll IS most definately in the conversation my freind..
I apologize I know Celina has 7 they should win Greatest Texas Progam but I figured 5A Board = Best 5A Program
jrock210
10-25-2008, 07:12 PM
+1 on this one.
Granted there are some more dominant teams today, but with exception a single 8-10 year span (late 90's, early 00's) of sub-par performances, Permian has always been extremely competitive.
Permian has "appeared" in a DOZEN state title games...all in the highest classification. (having won 6)
'65, '68, '70, '75, '77, '78, '84, '85, '88, '89, '91, '95
However, I will state there have been VERY few blue chip recruits...and even fewer who went on to play pro football. Honestly, I can think of two players that went pro [Brit Hager (Eagles), Stoney Case (Cardinals)]
In Odessa, high school football was(is) a way of life. There's not much else out there. Many, if not most, of their games are won with pure determination...rather than superior athletic ability. Often, they are undersized, and facing better athletes...and on paper there seems to be little chance for victory. Yet, somehow they still win. To me this adds significantly to their greatness.
As stated by others, I recognize that Texas has many great football programs. But I have traveled around alot and pretty much anyone who knows football knows Odessa Permian.
Wow 88?
Really? Judson lost (technically won) in the title game that year against.....Carter not Permian. Do yall count hat as a title trip? Really?
Judson also has very few major recruits and I'm not sure how many actually have played for the NFL but I know we never have one star player because at Judson it's team before individuals.
Most Judson wins are off of Pride. The essence of Rocket Pride can wake the dead.
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Wow 88?
Really? Judson lost (technically won) in the title game that year against.....Carter not Permian. Do yall count hat as a title trip? Really?
Judson also has very few major recruits and I'm not sure how many actually have played for the NFL but I know we never have one star player because at Judson it's team before individuals.
Most Judson wins are off of Pride. The essence of Rocket Pride can wake the dead.
hey jrock i think they are going by the movie Friday Night Lights!:D
Empire strikes back
10-25-2008, 07:40 PM
All I now is that Permian won 2 national Championships, how many does Judson have?
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rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 07:44 PM
All now is that Permian won 2 national Championships, how many does Judson have?
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dont matter the most anticipated game of the century which was Judson and Permian at that time WE WON!...National Champs!:D:p;)
jrock210
10-25-2008, 07:47 PM
hey jrock i think they are going by the movie Friday Night Lights!:D
I thought that also I was waiting for them to say that game at Texas Stadium in 88 was the game of the century lol
dont matter the most anticipated game of the century which was Judson and Permian at that time WE WON!...National Champs!:D:p;)
Were we National Champs that year?
And IMO National Championships never really mean anything because #1 in the nation never plays the #2 team in the nation.
ftballin11
10-25-2008, 08:04 PM
All I now is that Permian won 2 national Championships, how many does Judson have?
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Who did yall play in the National Championship game. What does the trophy look like.
CoveMom
10-25-2008, 08:10 PM
I think that if you are judging by championship stars on the football field (there are 7) you must remember Brownwood. The Lions along with their legendary coach [ (Gordon Wood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Wood_(American_football_coach) ], put the Top on the T in Texas at one time. They do grown 'em strong in West Texas, don't ya know? Anyone without a bias that says "only the highest classification counts" must include the Brownwood Lions in their "greatest" list.
jmo. flame suit on.
:)
Empire strikes back
10-25-2008, 08:12 PM
Who did yall play in the National Championship game. What does the trophy look like.
Um, let me look. Ok here we go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajR91JuT7G8&feature=related
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WOS87
10-25-2008, 08:20 PM
HERE'S MY INPUT ON THE MATTER
The 1146 Programs ever to qualify for the UIL State Football Playoffs (1920-2007)
Columns: Rank/Year of 1st playoff appearance/Program/Championships/Losses in state finals/Losses in semifinals/Losses in quarterfinals/Losses in rnd of 16/Losses in rnd of 32/Losses in rnd of 64
Points are calculated by the following formula: State title = 64 pts, Loss in final=32 pts, Loss in semifinal=16 pts, Loss in quarterfinals=8 pts, Loss in rnd of 16=4 pts, Loss in rnd of 32=2 pts,Loss in rnd of 64=1 pt.
===The Top 500 Playoff Programs Ranked by Cumulative Points===
(includes all games played through the end of the 2007 playoffs)
http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/playoffs/2007top500.gif
===Complete Rankings by Furthest Playoff Advancement===
(includes all games played through the end of the 2007 season)
http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/stats/playoffrank1.gif
PirateParent2011
10-25-2008, 08:31 PM
I agree. More people watch or have seen "Friday Night Lights" than have seen SLC's symbol. Heck even Trinity has a Gatorade commercial, constant headlines in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, 60 minutes, and CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, but that does not even come close to matching a movie and a TV series.:rolleyes:
I would have to agree with that assesment...on a national recognition bases the nod goes to Permian. When out of state folks think of Texas high school football they think Permian. On a pure "sustaining a quality program over time" vote I say SLC without a doubt. They have had great talent over the last few years. If your talking Texas legends then nobody tops Gordon Wood's Brownwood teams.
jrock210
10-25-2008, 08:32 PM
I didn't see a trophy in the video but I saw #18 do the robot or something like that lol
Biggems
10-25-2008, 08:33 PM
I think the one certainty is we will never a get a concensus :)
However, I think Permian has done MORE with LESS than any other program in the state. Meaning that we routinely take very average group of players and mold them into a very competitve TEAM.
That is why I love High School football. The kids play with so much "heart"! At this level, heart can beat talent, size, and even coaching.
Judson has never had a WR like Roy Williams......Judson has never had the size of players that OP has.
jrock210
10-25-2008, 08:37 PM
Judson has never had a WR like Roy Williams......Judson has never had the size of players that OP has.
And Judson's most notable player's name would be:
Jerod Douglas....
Guess what never went to NFL and played for...Baylor of all teams.
Jerod Douglas is a Judson legend and outside of SA not many people rememebr his name...sadly
Biggems
10-25-2008, 08:45 PM
And Judson's most notable player's name would be:
Jerod Douglas....
Guess what never went to NFL and played for...Baylor of all teams.
Jerod Douglas is a Judson legend and outside of SA not many people rememebr his name...sadly
but we did have some players play in the NFL....my brother would know more than me...but here are the ones I can recall.
Anthony Hutchison - ?
Robert Reed - Philadelphia
Chris Samuels - San Diego
Eric Brown - Denver (won two SBs), Houston
Otis Grigsby - Minnesota (current)
Biggems
10-25-2008, 08:46 PM
It depends how you catagorize Best program. If its all time, Id go with Judson,
More recent SLC Katy and Trinity come to mind. The past 10 years Its Katy for sure, The past 5 Years SLC, The past 3 years You could pick any of the 3.
I dont like Trinity being in this dicussion because they have been doing it for 4 years. Even Midland Lee was great for 3 years.
If your going for recent
1. Katy
2. SLC (They are slipping with new coaching)
3. Trinty
But really these teams have the capability of winning state every year and have a 50/50 chance against each other.
Is your school Katy? I am just curious.
Biggems
10-25-2008, 08:49 PM
All I now is that Permian won 2 national Championships, how many does Judson have?
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Really? when did this happen? I didnt know that all the state champs got together and had a tournament to crown a national champion...........was that an old school thing, cause it has never happened in my lifetime.
Oh wait, a bunch of fat, donut stuffing, coffee swilling, cigar smoking reporters got together over a game of poker on a Saturday night and voted on the National Champion, huh?
[QUOTE=WOS87;948616]HERE'S MY INPUT ON THE MATTER
The 1146 Programs ever to qualify for the UIL State Football Playoffs (1920-2007)
Columns: Rank/Year of 1st playoff appearance/Program/Championships/Losses in state finals/Losses in semifinals/Losses in quarterfinals/Losses in rnd of 16/Losses in rnd of 32/Losses in rnd of 64
Points are calculated by the following formula: State title = 64 pts, Loss in final=32 pts, Loss in semifinal=16 pts, Loss in quarterfinals=8 pts, Loss in rnd of 16=4 pts, Loss in rnd of 32=2 pts,Loss in rnd of 64=1 pt.
/QUOTE]
Maybe you should subtract 100 points for years a team goes 0-10.:D
I think that if you are judging by championship stars on the football field (there are 7) you must remember Brownwood. The Lions along with their legendary coach [ (Gordon Wood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Wood_(American_football_coach) ], put the Top on the T in Texas at one time. They do grown 'em strong in West Texas, don't ya know? Anyone without a bias that says "only the highest classification counts" must include the Brownwood Lions in their "greatest" list.
jmo. flame suit on.
:)
You are correct Mom, I seriously forgot about Brownwood...:notworthy
eagle03
10-25-2008, 09:08 PM
Is no one even going to mention the Team of the Century, Abilene High. I think that answers everyone's questions.
I would have to agree with that assesment...on a national recognition bases the nod goes to Permian. When out of state folks think of Texas high school football they think Permian. On a pure "sustaining a quality program over time" vote I say SLC without a doubt. They have had great talent over the last few years. If your talking Texas legends then nobody tops Gordon Wood's Brownwood teams.
I agree 1000%... For only one reason...:cool:
Is no one even going to mention the Team of the Century, Abilene High. I think that answers everyone's questions.
......NO....:p
ExCOOG88
10-25-2008, 09:19 PM
For SLC is betterthan you and in case you missed it. Otherwise your young or unknowing. The book/Movie was written about the 85 team. By the 85 season Permian already had 4 large class State championships under their belt. They were already the State Standard. They were already famous, hence the book. If you feel like you have a argument for SLC stay away from the notion that the book made Permian anything. They were National Champs in one publication in 1972.
I have quoted my own post for you. It is a overview of Permians success for the better part of 4 decades. Thats 40 years!Thats documented history! I don't think SLC can top that. If they can, post the history, even add in small class for the last 40 years. If yours is bigger than mine you win. If you don't perfer the history route then as of today Permian is 8-0. Include last year and Permian is 20 and 1. I couldn't debate you at all if you jumped on the Plano or Judson bandwagons.
As a post script and maybe the most unique thing I can boast is that Permians 6 state championships were won by FIVE (5) different head coachs in a district that has won, by far the most large class state championships in this state. That number is Eighteen (18). Isn't that amazing?
If you just insist on a specific, short time frame that suits your needs and You can allow the same parameters for everyone and if classification has no bearing then look up Fort Hancocks claim to fame.
Hate to rain on your parade but the book was not written on the 85 team. Written on the 88 team. Miles got hurt his senior year which was 88. The following year they did go undefeated and win the state championship.
jrp83
10-25-2008, 09:21 PM
And Judson's most notable player's name would be:
Jerod Douglas....
Guess what never went to NFL and played for...Baylor of all teams.
Jerod Douglas is a Judson legend and outside of SA not many people rememebr his name...sadly
Young grasshopper, listen carefully, Judson has had a number of players make it to the NFL. The very first that I know of is Anthony Hutchinson. He was a Judson RB in the late 70's. He led Judson to 2 district championships and if I'm not mistaken, led the city in rushing one of those years. He went on to play at Texas Tech and then the Chicago Bears. Unfortunately for him some guy named Walter Payton was also on the team. He was Payton's backup for 4 yrs. Not sure after that. A couple of other former Judson payers that I know of that played or are still playing in the NFL are Corey Sears & Otis Grigsby. There are a few more, just can't remember their names. So while Judson does not normally have an abundance of D1 talent, there have been some here and there. But you are right, Judson's success is mainly due to teamwork.
Go Rockets!!
Hammeroftruth
10-25-2008, 09:22 PM
I can't decide between Converse Judson, Odessa Permian, Midland Lee, and Katy. Little help here?
I will put these teams in a hat and mix them up and pick one out and go to battle with any team in the country
Carroll, Katy, Permian, Judson, Plano based off his criteria.
And if allowed I will have an alternate and it will be Trinity.
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 09:34 PM
And Judson's most notable player's name would be:
Jerod Douglas....
Guess what never went to NFL and played for...Baylor of all teams.
Jerod Douglas is a Judson legend and outside of SA not many people rememebr his name...sadly
in Schertz he will always be remembered:D
PermianFan4Life
10-25-2008, 09:35 PM
dont matter the most anticipated game of the century which was Judson and Permian at that time WE WON!...National Champs!:D:p;)
That game is forever burned into my mind! The biggest problem with Mojo was the wrong Randy took over, Mayes was the beginning of the end for us but I still feel if Quis had gotten the job then it would have all turned out much better.
That game should not have ended the way it did.
jrock210
10-25-2008, 09:35 PM
in Schertz he will always be remembered:D
I'm sure lol and probably at Baylor who knows?
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 09:37 PM
That game is forever burned into my mind! The biggest problem with Mojo was the wrong Randy took over, Mayes was the beginning of the end for us but I still feel if Quis had gotten the job then it would have all turned out much better.
That game should not have ended the way it did.
Yes it should have ;)
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 09:39 PM
I'm sure lol and probably at Baylor who knows?
and the defenses that played against him will remember...clearly!
Biggems
10-25-2008, 09:45 PM
I cannot believe I forgot about Corey Sears.......
BTW.....a lot of local kids went to UT in the late 80s, early 90s and then went on to the NFL.......
Chris Samuels - Judson
Robert Reed - Judson
Keith Cash - Holmes
Kerry Cash - Homes
Johnny Walker - Holmes
Priest Holmes - Marshall
I am sure there are more, but this is all I can think of off the top of my head.
WOS87
10-25-2008, 09:45 PM
[QUOTE=tjw;948616]
Maybe you should subtract 100 points for years a team goes 0-10.:D
Ummm... if you insist... but I don't see how that would really change anything.
Converse Judson went 0-10 in 1964
Southlake Carroll went 0-10 in 1969
Plano went 0-10 in 2003
jrock210
10-25-2008, 09:46 PM
[QUOTE=tjw;948717]
Ummm... if you insist... but I don't see how that would really change anything.
Converse Judson went 0-10 in 1964
Southlake Carroll went 0-10 in 1969
Plano went 0-10 in 2003
Ya and Judson was in the 26-5A of Class 1A at that time
WOS87
10-25-2008, 09:49 PM
Ya and Judson was in the 26-5A of Class 1A at that time
LOL!!!! And what about the Class B non-district opponents you played??
jrock210
10-25-2008, 09:56 PM
[QUOTE=jrock210;948782]
LOL!!!! And what about the Class B non-district opponents you played??
No comment....lol
Actually:
Here's the scores from that year:
Cole 0-31
Randolph 6-33
Clemens 0-22
Charlotte 8-14
Medina Valley 2-34
Natalia 8-35
Somerset 7-40
Comfort 8-14
Bandera 0-28
Sabinal 6-26
32 points for and 277 points against
Horrible season.
rocketgrl94
10-25-2008, 09:56 PM
I cannot believe I forgot about Corey Sears.......
BTW.....a lot of local kids went to UT in the late 80s, early 90s and then went on to the NFL.......
Chris Samuels - Judson
Robert Reed - Judson
Keith Cash - Holmes
Kerry Cash - Homes
Johnny Walker - Holmes
Priest Holmes - Marshall
I am sure there are more, but this is all I can think of off the top of my head.
Judson has produced some bad @ss players!
all 3 of the Judson players need to go our Hall of Fame they put it down back in the day well i started going when Robert Reed and Corey Sears were playin'
jrock210
10-25-2008, 09:58 PM
Judson has produced some bad @ss players!
all 3 of the Judson players need to go our Hall of Fame they put it down back in the day well i started going when Robert Reed and Corey Sears were playin'
I'm pretty sure anyone that played in the NFL and went to Judson will be in the Hall.
mojotrain
10-25-2008, 10:04 PM
I will put these teams in a hat and mix them up and pick one out and go to battle with any team in the country
Carroll, Katy, Permian, Judson, Plano based off his criteria.
And if allowed I will have an alternate and it will be Trinity.
After all the arguments this years Permian has not yet proved to be ready for Prime time. See, thats fair and balanced.:)
MOJOLonghorn
10-25-2008, 10:55 PM
Really? when did this happen? I didnt know that all the state champs got together and had a tournament to crown a national champion...........was that an old school thing, cause it has never happened in my lifetime.
Oh wait, a bunch of fat, donut stuffing, coffee swilling, cigar smoking reporters got together over a game of poker on a Saturday night and voted on the National Champion, huh?
I love the Judson program but this sounds like sour grapes.
Fan4Life
10-25-2008, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=tjw;948717]
Ummm... if you insist... but I don't see how that would really change anything.
Converse Judson went 0-10 in 1964
Southlake Carroll went 0-10 in 1969
Plano went 0-10 in 2003
Hey WOS, how many times has katy been 0-10? I dont believe they ever were winless in 5a but i have no clue about the lower classifications.
MOJOLonghorn
10-25-2008, 11:10 PM
Dude, I'm 37 years old... I have been a high school football fan for a long time.. Didnt just start the other day, I know why the book was written and its because of the great history of the Permian program... And I am personally proud of your program, being that its a Texas school.. I am only saying that today who around the world would know of Permian if the book hadnt been written or more so, the movie and series?.... I appreciate the movie alot and it will still give me chills if I were to watch it right now.. I'm just saying in high school football circles around the United States, we are known because of what we did on the field(because there is no movie or books about Carroll)... I have been to Mississippi where my dad lives and watched Hattiesburg play, and had several people comment on the Dragon sticker on my truck... They new that because of what Carroll did on the field, not because they saw it in a movie or series, thats all..
The movie, the books, the series were written BECAUSE of what Permian did on the field. If you're only 37 you might not realize that. Check the 5A stats from a couple of pages back on this thread. That being said, Texas has a number of storied programs. Some of them are writing their own stories on the field this year. I understand you being proud of your program, but I assure you Mojotrain, myself, and others have seen a number of these programs over the years. They come and they go.
WOS87
10-25-2008, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=WOS87;948779]
Hey WOS, how many times has katy been 0-10? I dont believe they ever were winless in 5a but i have no clue about the lower classifications.
Given your stipulations Katy has never been 0-10 in 5A but they did go 1-9 in 1980, 1983 and 1984
As far as lower classifications are concerned they never went 0-10 in a single season but they most definitely went winless quite a few times:
1972 0-9-1
1947 0-8-2
1946 0-9-0
1939 0-6-0
Fan4Life
10-25-2008, 11:15 PM
[QUOTE=Fan4Life;948868]
Given your stipulations Katy has never been 0-10 in 5A but they did go 1-9 in 1980, 1983 and 1984
As far as lower classifications are concerned they never went 0-10 in a single season but they most definitely went winless quite a few times:
1972 0-9-1
1947 0-8-2
1946 0-9-0
1939 0-6-0
:notworthy thanks for digging this up for me, looks like KT got barley escaped some winless seasons in the early 80's
WOS87
10-25-2008, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE=WOS87;948874]
:notworthy thanks for digging this up for me, looks like KT got barley escaped some winless seasons in the early 80's
http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/thsf/k/katy.gif
DaSho03Champs
10-25-2008, 11:23 PM
We are talking about the best overall program of all time, but yes the 03 Mustangs were one of the best units.
yes i know...i was just continuing jt13's post above mine when he was choosing which teams from Texas he would have chosen to play an out-of-state opponent from certain seasons.
As good as North Shore has been since Coach Aymond took over (1994), we have quite a ways to go before we could even be mentioned with the likes of Odessa Permian, Plano, Katy, and all the other historic programs in Texas. Maybe a couple more championships/appearances in the state title game will get us there. Or, maybe if we are lucky enough to say extend our regular season winning streak to a magical 100 games. I guess we will know in 2011 :-). I know what some will say...its only regular season, but you still can't dispute that if the streak does reach 100, it would be one of the best and biggest achievements in Texas High School history.
MOJOLonghorn
10-25-2008, 11:29 PM
You've got to watch WOS87. He's got stats on everything. I hate that!!! Some folks would rather go forward with emotion than be baffled by facts.
WOS87
10-25-2008, 11:35 PM
You've got to watch WOS87. He's got stats on everything. I hate that!!! Some folks would rather go forward with emotion than be baffled by facts.
In defense of MOJO they are the ONLY upper echelon 5A program (with 3 state titles or more) that I am aware of that has NEVER had a winless season. In fact, they've never gone a single season in 50 years of existence without winning at least 3 games. They went 3-7 in their very first season in 1959 and 3-6 at the nadir of the program's history in 1997. Otherwise they've won at least 4+ games for the remaining 48 seasons that the school has been around.
MOJOLonghorn
10-25-2008, 11:38 PM
My picks, just to keep this innane thread continuing:
Plano, Permian, Judson, Carroll, Abilene(for shear number of years in Texas football) and Trinity, as an up and comer. No certain order.
IMHO
Dynastybegan86
10-25-2008, 11:46 PM
My picks, just to keep this innane thread continuing:
Plano, Permian, Judson, Carroll, Abilene(for shear number of years in Texas football) and Trinity, as an up and comer. No certain order.
IMHO
No Katy?:(
PermianFan
10-25-2008, 11:51 PM
I am only saying that today who around the world would know of Permian if the book hadnt been written or more so, the movie and series?
From "The Secret Of Mojo" by Regina Walker McCally, Copyright 1986 (2 years before Bissinger started writing "Friday Night Lights"):
...In 1985, KTPX-TV, the NBC affiliate in Midland, Texas, preempted a National League baseball playoff game to televise Permian and Midland Lee's district football game, and The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, Time magazine and the national wire services brought national and international publicity to the event, with the news reportedly travelling all the way to West Germany.
Permian was internationally known long before Bissinger ever published his book.
WOS87
10-25-2008, 11:59 PM
From "The Secret Of Mojo" by Regina Walker McCally, Copyright 1986 (2 years before Bissinger started writing "Friday Night Lights"):
...In 1985, KTPX-TV, the NBC affiliate in Midland, Texas, preempted a National League baseball playoff game to televise Permian and Midland Lee's district football game, and The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, Time magazine and the national wire services brought national and international publicity to the event, with the news reportedly travelling all the way to West Germany.
Permian was internationally known long before Bissinger ever published his book.
Having lived through the Permian hey-day of the '70's and '80's I can attest that they were most definitely known before Bissinger's book came out...
How do you think Bissinger decided on which team he picked to feature in his book??? It was not a random choice
odessapermian.com
10-26-2008, 12:03 AM
From "The Secret Of Mojo" by Regina Walker McCally, Copyright 1986 (2 years before Bissinger started writing "Friday Night Lights"):
...In 1985, KTPX-TV, the NBC affiliate in Midland, Texas, preempted a National League baseball playoff game to televise Permian and Midland Lee's district football game, and The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, Time magazine and the national wire services brought national and international publicity to the event, with the news reportedly travelling all the way to West Germany.
Permian was internationally known long before Bissinger ever published his book.
For the win.
DaSho03Champs
10-26-2008, 12:09 AM
i also see it like this...
when someone asks the question, what is the greatest franchise in NFL history? most old-school fans would say the 49ers, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers...am i correct? while the new generation would no doubt say the New England Patriots. do you see where i am going here. most "old-school" cats on this forum will lean towards programs like Odessa Permian, Plano, Converse Judson. as in storied programs who have been perennial powers for decades who may not have have won championships lately (with the exception of Judson) but are still great programs today. and are still threats to win it all any given year (well except for the 49ers....lol). For the newer or "younger" fans, the Patriots = Southlake Carroll. Not that SLC was the doormat that Patriots once were, but their recent success certainly mirrors what new england has done in the NFL.
so in essence...there is no "right" or "wrong" answer to the question what is the greatest Texas program, just like there there is no definitive answer to what is the greatest NFL franchise ever.
just my $0.02
WOS87
10-26-2008, 12:10 AM
Although I was hypersensitized to Permian given that they played 3 Southeast Texas teams in the State Finals over a 10 year period
1975 Port Neches-Groves over Permian
1980 Permian over Port Arthur Jefferson
1984 Beaumont French tied with Permian
Biggems
10-26-2008, 12:23 AM
I love the Judson program but this sounds like sour grapes.
I would have said the same thing had Judson been rated NO. 1 in the nation. I mean who decides this stuff? How can we actually say the best team from one state is better than the best team in every other state without proving it on the field? IMO, the national rankings are completely empty and invalid.
It is kind of like the situation we have in college, where voters decide who the top team is.....and if the voters have a certain bias, then it skews the results of the polls.
State Championships are won on the field. They are concrete and valid and I can totally accept them in your argument.
The movie, the books, the series were written BECAUSE of what Permian did on the field. If you're only 37 you might not realize that. Check the 5A stats from a couple of pages back on this thread. That being said, Texas has a number of storied programs. Some of them are writing their own stories on the field this year. I understand you being proud of your program, but I assure you Mojotrain, myself, and others have seen a number of these programs over the years. They come and they go.
Again... Defend your spot like a dog... I appreciate that, seriously.. Hmm.
OK, yes the books were written because of what they did on the field... God I hope so, I hope it wasnt made up... Anyway the more you speak, you make my point for me... The book was written for what they did on the field around 20 years ago........ Lets say those books, movies, tv series were never made.. Now fast forward to right now... WHO OUTSIDE OF TEXAS HAS HEARD OF PERMIAN???????????
Chief, listen I assure YOU that I am aware of programs and how they come and go what I said was in the here and now... You have twisted this to be an all time history arguement... I went based off HIS criteria.. Simple really... almost elementary... I've got a 4 year old so..nevermind... WOW..
From "The Secret Of Mojo" by Regina Walker McCally, Copyright 1986 (2 years before Bissinger started writing "Friday Night Lights"):
...In 1985, KTPX-TV, the NBC affiliate in Midland, Texas, preempted a National League baseball playoff game to televise Permian and Midland Lee's district football game, and The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, Time magazine and the national wire services brought national and international publicity to the event, with the news reportedly travelling all the way to West Germany.
Permian was internationally known long before Bissinger ever published his book.
OK.. you gotta keep up... I said after.. Like 20 years ago...
Having lived through the Permian hey-day of the '70's and '80's I can attest that they were most definitely known before Bissinger's book came out...
How do you think Bissinger decided on which team he picked to feature in his book??? It was not a random choice
AGAIN... NOT BEFORE IT... Geez... After it... lets say 20 yrs agao...
For the win.
Not so much.... That says they took the news to whoever... Were talking about high school circles, wow... how hard is this?? Seiously..
Biggems
10-26-2008, 12:37 AM
Again... Defend your spot like a dog... I appreciate that, seriously.. Hmm.
OK, yes the books were written because of what they did on the field... God I hope so, I hope it wasnt made up... Anyway the more you speak, you make my point for me... The book was written for what they did on the field around 20 years ago........ Lets say those books, movies, tv series were never made.. Now fast forward to right now... WHO OUTSIDE OF TEXAS HAS HEARD OF PERMIAN???????????
Chief, listen I assure YOU that I am aware of programs and how they come and go what I said was in the here and now... You have twisted this to be an all time history arguement... I went based off HIS criteria.. Simple really... almost elementary... I've got a 4 year old so..nevermind... WOW..
yes the book was based on the football program, but it was more of a look at the social and economic tension between different classes in Odessa. The movie kind of ignored that aspect and focused mainly on football. Heck the movie even screwed up the ending. The entire nation thinks OP played for the State Title that year, when that game was actually the semi-finals. How does it feel to live a national lie?
luckily Judson fans are here to set the record straight. Yes, we got owned by Dallas Carter in the Final, but because they cheated, we got the Championship anyway.
my only qualm with the whole situation is that Judson should have played OP in 1988......and that would have been one heck of a game.
Biggems
10-26-2008, 12:39 AM
Not so much.... That says they took the news to whoever... Were talking about high school circles, wow... how hard is this?? Seiously..
is tre newton academically ineligible or did he redshirt?
i also see it like this...
when someone asks the question, what is the greatest franchise in NFL history? most old-school fans would say the 49ers, Cowboys, Steelers, and Packers...am i correct? while the new generation would no doubt say the New England Patriots. do you see where i am going here. most "old-school" cats on this forum will lean towards programs like Odessa Permian, Plano, Converse Judson. as in storied programs who have been perennial powers for decades who may not have have won championships lately (with the exception of Judson) but are still great programs today. and are still threats to win it all any given year (well except for the 49ers....lol). For the newer or "younger" fans, the Patriots = Southlake Carroll. Not that SLC was the doormat that Patriots once were, but their recent success certainly mirrors what new england has done in the NFL.
so in essence...there is no "right" or "wrong" answer to the question what is the greatest Texas program, just like there there is no definitive answer to what is the greatest NFL franchise ever.
just my $0.02
First Carroll has a proven 20 years of true power... Not quite a Johnny come lately... 7 State Championships over the last 20 years....
Second, This thread NEVER started as who has the greatest program of all time... re-read HIS criteria... If you want a greatest program of all tme thread, then start one... We can talk about it on there... This guy laid out criteria and i set forth why I think he described Carroll... Follow HIS criteria and state the case for your school... Simple.
yes the book was based on the football program, but it was more of a look at the social and economic tension between different classes in Odessa. The movie kind of ignored that aspect and focused mainly on football. Heck the movie even screwed up the ending. The entire nation thinks OP played for the State Title that year, when that game was actually the semi-finals. How does it feel to live a national lie?
luckily Judson fans are here to set the record straight. Yes, we got owned by Dallas Carter in the Final, but because they cheated, we got the Championship anyway.
my only qualm with the whole situation is that Judson should have played OP in 1988......and that would have been one heck of a game.
I'm with ya man... I just dont get the PERMS crying so much, like were taking their manhood or something... Geez... The thread starter laid out simple criteria and I followed that and then it turned into who is the greatest program of all time... WOW...
But I'm with ya... Tell it like it is..
is tre newton academically ineligible or did he redshirt?
Tre redshirted.... Expect to see him a little next season and proly alot in 2010..
TheScout
10-26-2008, 12:50 AM
Ok how bout 7 state finals in the last 11 year, with 4 titles and 1 title forfeited. Oh and undefeated against Judson lol:cool:.
Maybe you were not taught to read. I clearly said Trinity was not as successful as the other major teams. I was replying to a poster who said Trinity was only good the last 4 years. So grow up a little bit and try to read.
Biggems
10-26-2008, 12:54 AM
I'm with ya man... I just dont get the PERMS crying so much, like were taking their manhood or something... Geez... The thread starter laid out simple criteria and I followed that and then it turned into who is the greatest program of all time... WOW...
But I'm with ya... Tell it like it is..
they are a bit touchy and sensitive huh.....all I know is I havent seen too much Mojo Magic lately. In fact, has OP even made it to the State Championship this decade?
Biggems
10-26-2008, 12:55 AM
ftballin what school do you represent?
they are a bit touchy and sensitive huh.....all I know is I havent seen too much Mojo Magic lately. In fact, has OP even made it to the State Championship this decade?
No... Generally have been owned by the scoreboard for 17 or so years...;)
PermianFan
10-26-2008, 01:01 AM
AGAIN... NOT BEFORE IT... Geez... After it... lets say 20 yrs agao...
There are other great programs here, SLC and Trinity being excellent examples, but the original question:Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
He didn't ask which program is best today, he asked which is most considered the team of Texas. Permian has titles, has college and pro players, and is certainly known in pop culture. The books and movie and TV show contributed, obviously, but the original question was about perception and the perception is that throughout the world people identify Permian as representative of Texas high school football. Ask any friends who have traveled to Europe or elsewhere outside the country recently. It happened in the 80's, it happened in the 90's, and it happens today. It never stopped. It's pointless to say 'Yeah, but if they weren't famous, then what?'. They ARE famous. Permian was famous 20 years ago and is still famous today.
TheScout
10-26-2008, 01:03 AM
Agreed. HIS criteria said pop-culture, and I don't see any Dragon movies.....except PUFF:D
There are other great programs here, SLC and Trinity being excellent examples, but the original question:Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
He didn't ask which program is best today, he asked which is most considered the team of Texas. Permian has titles, has college and pro players, and is certainly known in pop culture. The books and movie and TV show contributed, obviously, but the original question was about perception and the perception is that throughout the world people identify Permian as representative of Texas high school football. Ask any friends who have traveled to Europe or elsewhere outside the country recently. It happened in the 80's, it happened in the 90's, and it happens today. It never stopped. It's pointless to say 'Yeah, but if they weren't famous, then what?'. They ARE famous. Permian was famous 20 years ago and is still famous today.
Keep up with me.... since your last title like 20 years ago... SCOREBOARD!!!
PermianFan4Life
10-26-2008, 01:03 AM
No... Generally have been owned by the scoreboard for 17 or so years...;)
Were getting back to where we need to be, As I said before we had some coaching issues that took a while to work out. Randy Mayes was the start of our problems that didnt end until Scott Smith left.
Biggems
10-26-2008, 01:06 AM
when I was a kid the schools we talked about a lot were
Judson (DUH), Holmes (local), Clark (local), Odessa Permian, Houston Yates, Dallas Carter, Plano, and Sugarland Willowridge.
It was huge news when Plano split up.
Were getting back to where we need to be, As I said before we had some coaching issues that took a while to work out. Randy Mayes was the start of our problems that didnt end until Scott Smith left.
Brother.. I here ya... I promise you Carroll will only give Wasson a few years to do some good... They wont let this program fall off...
Permian is starting to get back to the top, where they belong..
when I was a kid the schools we talked about a lot were
Judson (DUH), Holmes (local), Clark (local), Odessa Permian, Houston Yates, Dallas Carter, Plano, and Sugarland Willowridge.
It was huge news when Plano split up.
For me it was Permian, Plano, Brownwood, and Judson....
PermianFan
10-26-2008, 01:10 AM
Keep up with me.... since your last title like 20 years ago... SCOREBOARD!!!
Keep up with me.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Nope, sorry. Think I'll go to bed now.
Biggems
10-26-2008, 01:12 AM
For me it was Permian, Plano, Brownwood, and Judson....
ive never heard of brownwood until this thread........call me naive.
TheScout
10-26-2008, 01:16 AM
ive never heard of brownwood until this thread........call me naive.
Brownwood is DEAD CENTER of the state.
Biggems
10-26-2008, 01:18 AM
Brownwood is DEAD CENTER of the state.
what class are they?
Keep up with me.
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Nope, sorry. Think I'll go to bed now.
Here you forgot the rest of it.. Heres the WHOLE thing... He says sustained and Permian has not sustained a chamionship level!!! You havent won the damn thing in 20 years... Since that time Carroll has 7!!
Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
Obviously most know Permian, and Trinity is one of the nations' tops right now, but which program has been able to sustain themselves as the school that if EVERYONE in your state had one unbiased choice to pick a Texas team to play on a national stage would be the pick?
ive never heard of brownwood until this thread........call me naive.
Great, Great football program... It's been years for them.. But they were great!!!
TheScout
10-26-2008, 01:20 AM
what class are they?
I think 4A. It changes so much.
TheScout
10-26-2008, 01:22 AM
Check that. 3A this year
TheScout
10-26-2008, 01:23 AM
4A
3A this year
4A
Sorry they moved to 3A this year...
Here's their State Championships
Brownwood....
STATE CHAMPS
1960, 1965, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1978, 1981
PermianFan4Life
10-26-2008, 01:26 AM
ive never heard of brownwood until this thread........call me naive.
WOW, Look up Gordon Wood.
They are 4A or were last time I payed attention.
Permian_Fan
10-26-2008, 01:26 AM
Judson has never had a WR like Roy Williams......Judson has never had the size of players that OP has.
After I submitted my post...I remembered Roy Williams. He is another who went to the NFL.
As far as size, this year is the first time I can ever remember Permian having any size!
I know there is no easy way to prove it, but I would bet my life savings that Permian, on a yearly average, is smaller than Judson. Hell, I remember rosters where there wasn't guy on the list over 200! The years we did have a guy that went 200+ he was on the bench because he was too slow.
I've been going to Permian games for 30+ years. Typically Permian is outweighed 20+ lbs/man. I remember playing teams like Highland Park and Houston Yates that out weighed us 50-60 lbs/man on the line. Of course the '85 Houston yates team out weighed the Superbowl Champion Chicago Bears that year...REALLY!!! They tossed us around like rag dolls...unfortuantely the scores reflected that also :(
Anyway, Permian is typically on the small side. The coaches always told us it was because we had a tougher off season and daily work-outs...:)
I'm just glad that finally we got a little size in recent years. I guess those performance enhancing drugs have trickled down to the high school level....(just kidding). We'll credit better nutrition and superior weight training.
odessapermian.com
10-26-2008, 01:30 AM
Lets say those books, movies, tv series were never made.. Now fast forward to right now... WHO OUTSIDE OF TEXAS HAS HEARD OF PERMIAN???????????
Let's say SLC never moved up to 5A. Who outside of Texas would have heard of them?
See how that works? You can introduce hypothetical situations and straw man arguments all day long- it doesn't change the facts. Everything you're trying to ignore did, in fact, happen.
odessapermian.com
10-26-2008, 01:32 AM
ive never heard of brownwood until this thread........call me naive.
That pretty much disqualifies you from this discussion. Let the adults hash it out.
PermianFan4Life
10-26-2008, 01:35 AM
After I submitted my post...I remembered Roy Williams. He is another who went to the NFL.
As far as size, this year is the first time I can ever remember Permian having any size!
I know there is no easy way to prove it, but I would bet my life savings that Permian, on a yearly average, is smaller than Judson. Hell, I remember rosters where there wasn't guy on the list over 200! The years we did have a guy that went 200+ he was on the bench because he was too slow.
I've been going to Permian games for 30+ years. Typically Permian is outweighed 20+ lbs/man. I remember playing teams like Highland Park and Houston Yates that out weighed us 50-60 lbs/man on the line. Of course the '85 Houston yates team out weighed the Superbowl Champion Chicago Bears that year...REALLY!!! They tossed us around like rag dolls...unfortuantely the scores reflected that also :(
Anyway, Permian is typically on the small side. The coaches always told us it was because we had a tougher off season and daily work-outs...:)
I'm just glad that finally we got a little size in recent years. I guess those performance enhancing drugs have trickled down to the high school level....(just kidding). We'll credit better nutrition and superior weight training.
Yep that is very true!! Smaller, faster and more agile than the competition. The only thing big about former Permian teams were their hearts.
Oh Garrett and Sam have younger brothers that are going to be as big if not bigger.
After I submitted my post...I remembered Roy Williams. He is another who went to the NFL.
As far as size, this year is the first time I can ever remember Permian having any size!
I know there is no easy way to prove it, but I would bet my life savings that Permian, on a yearly average, is smaller than Judson. Hell, I remember rosters where there wasn't guy on the list over 200! The years we did have a guy that went 200+ he was on the bench because he was too slow.
I've been going to Permian games for 30+ years. Typically Permian is outweighed 20+ lbs/man. I remember playing teams like Highland Park and Houston Yates that out weighed us 50-60 lbs/man on the line. Of course the '85 Houston yates team out weighed the Superbowl Champion Chicago Bears that year...REALLY!!! They tossed us around like rag dolls...unfortuantely the scores reflected that also :(
Anyway, Permian is typically on the small side. The coaches always told us it was because we had a tougher off season and daily work-outs...:)
I'm just glad that finally we got a little size in recent years. I guess those performance enhancing drugs have trickled down to the high school level....(just kidding). We'll credit better nutrition and superior weight training.
Permian is like so many others, including us, that have been outsized on the field... But teams like that win with heart and schemes..
Also you mentioned the S word there.. Steroids... I would like to say I am very proud of our Texas high school athletes... Over 10,000 kids have been tested in Texas and only 2 tested positive...
In comparison Florida tested 1200 and 2 tested positive and California tested 1500 and 2 tested positive...
Way to go Texas athletes....:notworthy
Let's say SLC never moved up to 5A. Who outside of Texas would have heard of them?
See how that works? You can introduce hypothetical situations and straw man arguments all day long- it doesn't change the facts. Everything you're trying to ignore did, in fact, happen.
Silly.. I see your not able to realistically follow the premise here... Carroll wasnt aided by books or movies... they were aided by play on field... I keep saying it and again.... SCOREBOARD!!!
odessapermian.com
10-26-2008, 01:44 AM
Silly.. I see your not able to realistically follow the premise here... Carroll wasnt aided by books or movies... they were aided by play on field... I keep saying it and again.... SCOREBOARD!!!
When someone adds the qualifier "known nationwide, pop culture, etc" Permian will be the winner in this meaningless debate, and it is not even close. Sure, ask hardcore football fans about Texas football, and they can name Carroll, Trinity, Judson, Permian, Plano, etc. Ask an average fan, and they will say Permian, maybe Trinity, and that's the list. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it is what it is.
I see your (sic) not able to realistically follow the premise here.....SCOREBOARD
The last part completely disqualifies the first part of your statement. Scoreboard between two teams has absolutely nothing to do with the original question, and in fact it proves that it is YOU that has a problem with the concept. Not that it matters, so please- get your knickers out of a knot because you feel your boys aren't getting their props on this topic.
When someone adds the qualifier "known nationwide, pop culture, etc" Permian will be the winner in this meaningless debate, and it is not even close. Sure, ask hardcore football fans about Texas football, and they can name Carroll, Trinity, Judson, Permian, Plano, etc. Ask an average fan, and they will say Permian, maybe Trinity, and that's the list. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it is what it is.
The last part completely disqualifies the first part of your statement. Scoreboard between two teams has absolutely nothing to do with the original question, and in fact it proves that it is YOU that has a problem with the concept. Not that it matters, so please- get your knickers out of a knot because you feel your boys aren't getting their props on this topic.
Listen... Again I will slow it down for you... Permian WILL be on the list for greatest of all time... Not on the list for greatest of this time... I wouldnt want to purposely pick Permian to play an OOS team... Yall just dont make the cut there.. Permian has NOT been at a championship level in 2 decades, I know this is hard for you to accept.. But seriously... Its endless... What has Permian done vs the scoreboard outside of the hair band days??
Come on, I know you proly dont get out of the wild wild west Texas much... But I do.. I'm in construction and travel out of Texas ALOT and I promise you that the average fans know Permian because of the movie and the tv series... But as soon as they see the Dragon stuff on my truck, they know its the Dragons... It didnt happen with a movie or tv show man... It happened vs the scoreboard..
odessapermian.com
10-26-2008, 02:13 AM
Listen... Again I will slow it down for you... Permian WILL be on the list for greatest of all time... Not on the list for greatest of this time... I wouldnt want to purposely pick Permian to play an OOS team... Yall just dont make the cut there.. Permian has NOT been at a championship level in 2 decades, I know this is hard for you to accept.. But seriously... Its endless... What has Permian done vs the scoreboard outside of the hair band days??
Come on, I know you proly dont get out of the wild wild west Texas much... But I do.. I'm in construction and travel out of Texas ALOT and I promise you that the average fans know Permian because of the movie and the tv series... But as soon as they see the Dragon stuff on my truck, they know its the Dragons... It didnt happen with a movie or tv show man... It happened vs the scoreboard..
First of all, never go full bozo.
Now, you probably won't like this answer (is proly even a word???)*** but....if we're going to pare the original question down to the single criteria you keep pushing- who would the consensus team be to play an OOS opponent based strictly on what they have done in the very recent past- it certainly would not be Carroll. Their last foray into OOS games resulted in a loss. Plus, this season they have already lost to a team that doesn't even have a winning record in district (Coppell). So again, if you're going to narrow it down to one single issue- which the original question did not, but we'll play along with your fantasy if it makes you happy- then the obvious answer is Trinity.
***BTW, I don't normally indulge in being the grammer police. But if you're going to imply that someone is stupid- ie your continued comments like "I'll slow it down for you", etc.- you better dang well make sure you don't look like an uneducated moron in the process.
First of all, never go full bozo.
Now, you probably won't like this answer (is proly even a word???)*** but....if we're going to pare the original question down to the single criteria you keep pushing- who would the consensus team be to play an OOS opponent based strictly on what they have done in the very recent past- it certainly would not be Carroll. Their last foray into OOS games resulted in a loss. Plus, this season they have already lost to a team that doesn't even have a winning record in district (Coppell). So again, if you're going to narrow it down to one single issue- which the original question did not, but we'll play along with your fantasy if it makes you happy- then the obvious answer is Trinity.
***BTW, I don't normally indulge in being the grammer police. But if you're going to imply that someone is stupid- ie your continued comments like "I'll slow it down for you", etc.- you better dang well make sure you don't look like an uneducated moron in the process.
That game vs Northwestern was a classic battle between powerhouse teams and an 8 point loss... WOW... your killing me here smalls... Everyone left that game saying: damn I wouldnt want Carroll to rep our state in a game against an OOS team cause they just played one of the best teams in the USA and some of the best talent ever assembled and came out with an 8 point loss... BWAHAHA... GET REAL... Dont discredit your already deminishing relevance on this subject...
Classic.. you bring up Coppell to counter the fact that Permian has not been relevant enough to qualify as a team even the most basic observers wouldnt choose to play "One Game" vs an OOS opponnet... Sweet...
And I guess your proly not with the times enough to know that people shorten their words... It's done on purpose, not by an idiot accident like using a word like foray, that doesnt even fit, based on its meaning, in the way you used it... So go on bro.. Give me some more grammer lessons...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh and btw... I will also take Trinity as I previously stated and win 9 times out of 10...
Texas Bob
10-26-2008, 03:01 AM
First of all, never go full bozo.
Now, you probably won't like this answer (is proly even a word???)*** but....if we're going to pare the original question down to the single criteria you keep pushing- who would the consensus team be to play an OOS opponent based strictly on what they have done in the very recent past- it certainly would not be Carroll. Their last foray into OOS games resulted in a loss. Plus, this season they have already lost to a team that doesn't even have a winning record in district (Coppell). So again, if you're going to narrow it down to one single issue- which the original question did not, but we'll play along with your fantasy if it makes you happy- then the obvious answer is Trinity.
***BTW, I don't normally indulge in being the grammer police. But if you're going to imply that someone is stupid- ie your continued comments like "I'll slow it down for you", etc.- you better dang well make sure you don't look like an uneducated moron in the process.
Your just going to dirty wrestling with this ...
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:15 AM
Here you forgot the rest of it.. Heres the WHOLE thing... He says sustained and Permian has not sustained a chamionship level!!! You havent won the damn thing in 20 years... Since that time Carroll has 7!!
Apparently, you haven't looked around. In 2006 SLC had to fight well into the 2nd half to battle off an "unknown" Pernian High School.
In 2007 they got spanked by an Abilene High School, which some on this thread have scoffed at. Permian made it that far in the playoffs, and beat AHS in the regular season. Maybe it was a "rebuilding" year for SLC.
Fast forward to this week and the still unknown Permian Panthers are rated above SLC in 75% of the polls in Texas.
I only say this for you, but it looks like SLC may be loosing some of its relevance in the mid-2000's.
I hope ya'll don't fall on the hard times like we did. Oh, BTW, we made 2 state championship appearances in the 90's and won one. So it hasn't been 20years like you mention in other posts.
I didn't get into this thread until I started seeing you skew what was asked to fit your short term memory in Texas football.
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:23 AM
they are a bit touchy and sensitive huh.....all I know is I havent seen too much Mojo Magic lately. In fact, has OP even made it to the State Championship this decade?
No, Biggems, not this decade. We played a team in 1995, that you should know very well, and got beat. But it was a great game between two perennial powerhouses.
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:24 AM
There are other great programs here, SLC and Trinity being excellent examples, but the original question:Which program based on titles, players sent to college/pros, known in pop culture nationwide, etc. is considered THE team of Texas.
He didn't ask which program is best today, he asked which is most considered the team of Texas. Permian has titles, has college and pro players, and is certainly known in pop culture. The books and movie and TV show contributed, obviously, but the original question was about perception and the perception is that throughout the world people identify Permian as representative of Texas high school football. Ask any friends who have traveled to Europe or elsewhere outside the country recently. It happened in the 80's, it happened in the 90's, and it happens today. It never stopped. It's pointless to say 'Yeah, but if they weren't famous, then what?'. They ARE famous. Permian was famous 20 years ago and is still famous today.
AGREED!!!
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:29 AM
That pretty much disqualifies you from this discussion. Let the adults hash it out.
Biggems, I have to agree here. If you get a chance, research the Brownwood Lions and Coach Gordon Wood. It will make for some GREAT Texas football reading.
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:35 AM
Your just going to dirty wrestling with this ...
By the way, Texas Bob, what are you doing up posting at 3am. I heard the only folks up this time of night were Satan and oilfield operators!!
Apparently, you haven't looked around. In 2006 SLC had to fight well into the 2nd half to battle off an "unknown" Pernian High School.
In 2007 they got spanked by an Abilene High School, which some on this thread have scoffed at. Permian made it that far in the playoffs, and beat AHS in the regular season. Maybe it was a "rebuilding" year for SLC.
Fast forward to this week and the still unknown Permian Panthers are rated above SLC in 75% of the polls in Texas.
I only say this for you, but it looks like SLC may be loosing some of its relevance in the mid-2000's.
I hope ya'll don't fall on the hard times like we did. Oh, BTW, we made 2 state championship appearances in the 90's and one one. So it hasn't been 20years like you mention in other posts.
I didn't get into this thread until I started seeing you skew what was asked to fit your short term memory in Texas football.
WRONG!!!! 2006 Carroll rolled Permian 42-6... But dont let the scoreboard get in the way of your silly memory... Your VERY VERY short memory of Texas football...:laugh
WRONG!! 2007 Abilene beat Carroll 22-21... And it took everything they had to be a Riley Dodge-less team that was enroute to whiping the field with Abilene when he was knocked out by their line backer.. And Carroll still had a chance to win in the final seconds of that game except for a fumbled snap by our QB to down the ball and kick the winning field goal.. Your bad memory of Texas football strikes again!!
Very good on your ranking above Carroll this year, based solely on the fact that Carroll lost a game... Not that Permian had anything to do with that, If we hadnt lost to Coppell we would be ranked above Permian..
Oh and btw... So school me here, Permian has won one title in 18 years? and me saying 20 eats at you??... I see why...
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:47 AM
WRONG!!!! 2006 Carroll rolled Permian 42-6... But dont let the scoreboard get in the way of your silly memory... Your VERY VERY short memory of Texas football...:laugh
WRONG!! 2007 Abilene beat Carroll 22-21... And it took everything they had to be a Riley Dodge-less team that was enroute to whiping the field with Abilene when he was knocked out by their line backer.. And Carroll still had a chance to win in the final seconds of that game except for a fumbled snap by our QB to down the ball and kick the winning field goal.. Your bad memory of Texas football strikes again!!
Very good on your ranking above Carroll this year, based solely on the fact that Carroll lost a game... Not that Permian had anything to do with that, If we hadnt lost to Coppell we would be ranked above Permian..
Oh and btw... So school me here, Permian has won one title in 18 years? and me saying 20 eats at you??... I see why...
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Bye. Thanks for playing...;)
DaSho03Champs
10-26-2008, 03:57 AM
hey slcisbetterthanyou.....
gotta question for you buddy (actually 2 questions). based on the criteria of the original question of this topic:
1) which of the two would you consider to be the greater NFL franchise?
a) DALLAS COWBOYS
b) NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
2) which of the two would you consider to be the greater NCAA football program?
a) NOTRE DAME
b) LSU
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 03:58 AM
WRONG!!!! 2006 Carroll rolled Permian 42-6... But dont let the scoreboard get in the way of your silly memory... Your VERY VERY short memory of Texas football...:laugh
WRONG!! 2007 Abilene beat Carroll 22-21... And it took everything they had to be a Riley Dodge-less team that was enroute to whiping the field with Abilene when he was knocked out by their line backer.. And Carroll still had a chance to win in the final seconds of that game except for a fumbled snap by our QB to down the ball and kick the winning field goal.. Your bad memory of Texas football strikes again!!
Very good on your ranking above Carroll this year, based solely on the fact that Carroll lost a game... Not that Permian had anything to do with that, If we hadnt lost to Coppell we would be ranked above Permian..
Oh and btw... So school me here, Permian has won one title in 18 years? and me saying 20 eats at you??... I see why...
SLC had all they wanted in the first half of the Permian game. Coach Dodge was chewing Riley out for 2 quarters.
Abilene beat a school that apparently didn't have enough depth at QB, witnessed by the fumble.
Ya'll DID lose a game, which is why a few schools you may not respect are ranked above you.
We can go on forever, but I think you just want to be a troublemaker.
2008-1992 is 16, your 4 year old knows that. Are you sure you graduated from SLC?
DaSho03Champs
10-26-2008, 03:59 AM
here's another one actually that might be the best analogy of all...which of the two would you consider to have the greater NCAA Basketball program?
a) KENTUCKY WILDCATS
b) FLORIDA GATORS
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 04:01 AM
See, now you have a gentleman from Houston playing.
TheScout
10-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Cowboys
Notre Dame
:notworthy
MOJOLonghorn
10-26-2008, 04:03 AM
How about this? Ft. Worth Southwest or Ft. Worth Paschal?
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