Obama-"My Muslim faith"

[pied]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014604.php

Haven't seen this brought up. Here's the clip for those interested to see.

[drgnbkr]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014604.php

Haven't seen this brought up. Here's the clip for those interested to see.

A bizarre slip, considering that every word uttered is so magnified. With McCain up by 10 points in some polls, it has to hurt.

[pied]

I don't think it will change much. Those who thought or suspect he's Muslim will see it as affirmation, those who love him, will see it as a slip caused by the racists in America, and I don't see it making much of a difference with the undecideds.

Lots of talk on it out there, was surprised it hadn't made it over here yet.

[drgnbkr]

I don't think it will change much. Those who thought or suspect he's Muslim will see it as affirmation, those who love him, will see it as a slip caused by the racists in America, and I don't see it making much of a difference with the undecideds.

Lots of talk on it out there, was surprised it hadn't made it over here yet.

I just see his whole team in disarray right now, and this slip is a sign of the stress of losing the lead he felt he had...He has been so pampered by the media that things were seeming to be too easy...The campaign is just getting started in my opinion.

[KLH75287]

I realize this was a slip on his part, but what bothers me the most about the guy is that I don't think he knows "what" he is, and is content to "blend" wherever he can depending on the circle of influence around him.

That leaves him with NO identity to stand on and draw guidance from.

Can anyone say; "not ready to lead"?

[the_phoenix612]

I realize this was a slip on his part, but what bothers me the most about the guy is that I don't think he knows "what" he is, and is content to "blend" wherever he can depending on the circle of influence around him.

That leaves him with NO identity to stand on and draw guidance from.

Can anyone say; "not rwady to lead"?

actually, that's pretty awkward to wrap your tongue around.....

[pied]

I realize this was a slip on his part, but what bothers me the most about the guy is that I don't think he knows "what" he is, and is content to "blend" wherever he can depending on the circle of influence around him.

That leaves him with NO identity to stand on and draw guidance from.

Can anyone say; "not rwady to lead"?

I've always had a problem with the "rw" combination, so I guess I can't.

I really don't understand your comment regarding knowing who he is. Can you clarify?

[KLH75287]

actually, that's pretty awkward to wrap your tongue around.....

All better now.

[KLH75287]

I really don't understand your comment regarding knowing who he is. Can you clarify?

My statement was not "who he is" , but "what he is" in regards to his faith, belief system, values, and character as a man. Everyone has a baseline that they draw insight and judgement from when faced with difficult situations or problems. What we believe determines how we feel, and how we fell often determines how we act. We have to be able to draw from a combination of our present circumstances, past experiences, wise council, and faith. My comment was based on the fact that he doesn't appear to have a firm baseline, or one he will admit to when it comes to his faith which should drive his judgement. Without that, we are all subject to making poorly influenced or emotional decisions in tough times. I'm not slamming the guy, just saying that his lack of a stance on where his faith lies causes me to pause when it comes to his ability to lead. A good leader responds to situations instead of reacting. The downtime it takes to respond is critical to making the right choice.

Just an opinion.

[DrEdward]

It is clear what he meant when he made the statement, but it is amusing how George jumped right in to restate his words as his "Christian faith." Clearly Obama has a muslim background in his youth, but the man says he has now accepted Christ, so I will take him at his word on that. It would likely have helped had he not been associated for so many years with a minister who preached some real garbage along with his other messages.

[t-long20]

A bizarre slip, considering that every word uttered is so magnified. With McCain up by 10 points in some polls, it has to hurt.


57 states anyone?

[t-long20]

I don't think it will change much. Those who thought or suspect he's Muslim will see it as affirmation, those who love him, will see it as a slip caused by the racists in America, and I don't see it making much of a difference with the undecideds.



Than why post it? The radical right just had a hard-on by watching that clip.

[drgnbkr]

57 states anyone?

57 states of confusion?

[pied]

My statement was not "who he is" , but "what he is" in regards to his faith, belief system, values, and character as a man. Everyone has a baseline that they draw insight and judgement from when faced with difficult situations or problems. What we believe determines how we feel, and how we fell often determines how we act. We have to be able to draw from a combination of our present circumstances, past experiences, wise council, and faith. My comment was based on the fact that he doesn't appear to have a firm baseline, or one he will admit to when it comes to his faith which should drive his judgement. Without that, we are all subject to making poorly influenced or emotional decisions in tough times. I'm not slamming the guy, just saying that his lack of a stance on where his faith lies causes me to pause when it comes to his ability to lead. A good leader responds to situations instead of reacting. The downtime it takes to respond is critical to making the right choice.

Just an opinion.


Hmm. I thought he has been pretty clear on that. Must have missed it.

[pied]

Than why post it? The radical right just had an hard-on by watching that clip.

Because it's news.

[the_phoenix612]

Than why post it? The radical right just had a hard-on by watching that clip.

:notworthy

[pied]

It is clear what he meant when he made the statement, but it is amusing how George jumped right in to restate his words as his "Christian faith." Clearly Obama has a muslim background in his youth, but the man says he has now accepted Christ, so I will take him at his word on that. It would likely have helped had he not been associated for so many years with a minister who preached some real garbage along with his other messages.

Agreed. Some of Reverend Wright's messages are entirely lost on me as a Christian and an American. By the same token some of Palin's minister's comments are as diturbing to me as Wright's as a Christian.

Reminder to pied, if I ever decide to run for office, go to as a mainstream church I can find. I did attend the chursh Bush did in Austin on occasion. That was while he was still in Dallas though. Cool to see on TV though.

[t-long20]

Because it's news.

Yeah, partisan news.

He probably states hes not a muslim one hundred times a day. I can see why the slip-up would occur.

You've done no more than contribute to another unnecessary political debate on whether Obama is a muslim which will have no effect on this election. Congrats.

[the_phoenix612]

Hmm. I thought he has been pretty clear on that. Must have missed it.

It's clear to anyone who isn't looking for an excuse to not vote for him because they're afraid to say "I'm not voting for him bc he's BLACK"...

[KLH75287]

It is clear what he meant when he made the statement, but it is amusing how George jumped right in to restate his words as his "Christian faith." Clearly Obama has a muslim background in his youth, but the man says he has now accepted Christ, so I will take him at his word on that. It would likely have helped had he not been associated for so many years with a minister who preached some real garbage along with his other messages.

I noticed that George was very quick to help him out on that too.

[KLH75287]

Hmm. I thought he has been pretty clear on that. Must have missed it.

Must have.

[pied]

I noticed that George was very quick to help him out on that too.

I noticed that as well.

[pied]

Must have.

Can you help me out some?

Has he not been pretty clear that he is a Christian?

[KLH75287]

It's clear to anyone who isn't looking for an excuse to not vote for him because they're afraid to say "I'm not voting for him bc he's BLACK"...

I certainly hope that you aren't assuming that is my stance.

Although I'm sure there are alot of folks who aren't going to vote for him because he's black, I'm certain there are just as many, maybe more who are supporting him simply because he's black.

I think it would be great for him to come out at this point in the game and publicly appeal to those who may be and encourage them to not vote for him because he's black, but because they belive he is the better leader for our country.

[tayb]

It's clear to anyone who isn't looking for an excuse to not vote for him because they're afraid to say "I'm not voting for him bc he's BLACK"...

Yeah. Anyone who doesn't vote for Obama obviously a closet racist.

[ktCarl]

It was obviously a slip.

[KLH75287]

Yeah. Anyone who doesn't vote for Obama obviously a closet racist.

Exactly!

We might as well get that rhetoric rolling. I can't imagine any other reason to not vote for him.

I don't even want to think about how much of that crap we are going to have to endure as a nation if McCain wins the general election in November.

[HUM398]

It's clear to anyone who isn't looking for an excuse to not vote for him because they're afraid to say "I'm not voting for him bc he's BLACK"...


Im voting for him because he is Black...

:rolleyes:

[drgnbkr]

Im voting for him because he is Black...

:rolleyes:

Were you a juror in the OJ trial?

[Dawg Fan]

Than why post it? The radical right just had a hard-on by watching that clip.

The same happens to McCain when he makes a slip and you know it. These guys can't say anything that is not scrutinized by everyone and interpreted the way they want to see it. To be honest I don't care that they make slip ups because they are human no matter how bad some want them not to be.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go through this circus to be elected.

[HUM398]

Were you a juror in the OJ trial?

No. But i watched it on TV...does that count?

[t-long20]

The same happens to McCain when he makes a slip and you know it. These guys can't say anything that is not scrutinized by everyone and interpreted the way they want to see it. To be honest I don't care that they make slip ups because they are human no matter how bad some want them not to be.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go through this circus to be elected.

Agreed. I think it's safe to say that everyone is tired of hearing about the election. Lets just vote and get it done with.

[HUM398]

Agreed. I think it's safe to say that everyone is tired of hearing about the election. Lets just vote and get it done with.

Can i vote for Obama because he is Muslim? :eek:

:p

[CyFallsMom]

Actually, I thought it sounded like a slip. He was saying that McCain hadn't said anything about his Muslim faith as in he had not brought up that thought. He was Muslim as a child and has supposedly converted but as for this statement - it just sounded like a slip up to me. I agree though - his answers to every question just put me into a coma...just GET to the POINT!

[pied]

Actually, I thought it sounded like a slip. He was saying that McCain hadn't said anything about his Muslim faith as in he had not brought up that thought. He was Muslim as a child and has supposedly converted but as for this statement - it just sounded like a slip up to me. I agree though - his answers to every question just put me into a coma...just GET to the POINT!


um, not so much.

[DrEdward]

Can i vote for Obama because he is Muslim? :eek:

:p

Only if you failed to stay in a Holiday Inn Express in the past six months. :p

[slorch]

personally, I thought it was just a slip, and not a Freudian one either.
It was a common,normal, everyday conversational flub, IMO.

seriously.

[drgnbkr]

personally, I thought it was just a slip, and not a Freudian one either.
It was a common,normal, everyday conversational flub, IMO.

seriously.

One that for any of us every day, run of the mill, citizens, would mean squat...for him it has a whole different meaning slip or not...

[slorch]

One that for any of us every day, run of the mill, citizens, would mean squat...for him it has a whole different meaning slip or not...

people around us every day do it. Hold the cheese on those tacos...I mean I want extra cheese on those tacos."

For all of the issues I disagree with the dude on, I find this situation very Salem-esque.

On the other hand, he could be the victim of a breach of his very own "Operation Deception," in which he hides his true self until after the election.;)

[ktCarl]

Exactly!

We might as well get that rhetoric rolling. I can't imagine any other reason to not vote for him.

I don't even want to think about how much of that crap we are going to have to endure as a nation if McCain wins the general election in November.

It's already started.

[ktCarl]

I agree though - his answers to every question just put me into a coma...just GET to the POINT!

He's a lawyer or he graduated from law school? I don't know if he took the bar exam( the bar exam for lawyers unlike the bar exam that jtk, slorch and others here have passed with flying colors). He's trained to not answer direct questions directly.

[the_phoenix612]

Exactly!

We might as well get that rhetoric rolling. I can't imagine any other reason to not vote for him.

I don't even want to think about how much of that crap we are going to have to endure as a nation if McCain wins the general election in November.

do you mind elaborating on "that crap"?

[SaRattlerFan]

Exactly!

We might as well get that rhetoric rolling. I can't imagine any other reason to not vote for him.

I don't even want to think about how much of that crap we are going to have to endure as a nation if McCain wins the general election in November.

Let me give you a few reasons not to vote for him:

1. ZERO leadership - the man has never led anything; no executive experience, no leadership positions in the Senate
2. He's a socialist - big government, governement healthcare, free community college education - who pays for these programs - the taxpayer
3. Social and economic issues - for abortion, for gun control, against drilling off shore and Alsaka

I have many more -

Bottomline, this guy isn't qualified to be President and it has nothing to do with his race!

[the_phoenix612]

Let me give you a few reasons not to vote for him:

1. ZERO leadership - the man has never led anything; no executive experience, no leadership positions in the Senate
2. He's a socialist - big government, governement healthcare, free community college education - who pays for these programs - the taxpayer
3. Social and economic issues - for abortion, for gun control, against drilling off shore and Alsaka

I have many more -

Bottomline, this guy isn't qualified to be President and it has nothing to do with his race!

google search the Alaska Permanent Fund.

I'd copy paste for you, but people yell at me when I do....

[tayb]

Let me give you a few reasons not to vote for him:

1. ZERO leadership - the man has never led anything; no executive experience, no leadership positions in the Senate
2. He's a socialist - big government, governement healthcare, free community college education - who pays for these programs - the taxpayer
3. Social and economic issues - for abortion, for gun control, against drilling off shore and Alsaka

I have many more -

Bottomline, this guy isn't qualified to be President and it has nothing to do with his race!

I'm all for the free college education. It is about time we move forward and stop placing millions of kids into 50,000+ debt on a yearly basis.

[the_phoenix612]

I'm all for the free college education. It is about time we move forward and stop placing millions of kids into 50,000+ debt on a yearly basis.

SOCIALIST!

TRAITOR!

GO LIVE IN EUROPE, YOU DIRTY ATHEIST COMMIE LIBERAL!

[JMSFan]

I'm all for the free college education. It is about time we move forward and stop placing millions of kids into 50,000+ debt on a yearly basis.

I think beer should be free.

[HUM398]

I'm all for the free college education. It is about time we move forward and stop placing millions of kids into 50,000+ debt on a yearly basis.

Its about time you stop blaming someone else fro the college student choosing to go to college to acquire a degree.

If we did a better job in our Public Secondary schools in teaching children trades they can actually use when they get out of High school...we may not have so many kids trying to go to college and wasting their time and money.

This idea that College is an entitlement only proves that American have a sense of entitlement...its sad, but the American dream as we know it has changed.

[DrEdward]

google search the Alaska Permanent Fund.

I'd copy paste for you, but people yell at me when I do....

Which makes Obama no less a politician with very socialistic leanings.

[tayb]

Its about time you stop blaming someone else fro the college student choosing to go to college to acquire a degree.

If we did a better job in our Public Secondary schools in teaching children trades they can actually use when they get out of High school...we may not have so many kids trying to go to college and wasting their time and money.

This idea that College is an entitlement only proves that American have a sense of entitlement...its sad, but the American dream as we know it has changed.

Are you nuts? You think they can teach someone to work at NASA as an astronautical engineer during their years at HS? Think they can teach someone to become a petroleum engineer during HS? What about biotechnology? Think any of that stuff is possible during high school? That has got to be one of the most asinine things I have EVER heard.

I can't believe you are so ignorant to believe that college students wanting to further their education are wasting their money on an "entitlement." It is a good thing morons like yourself only get one vote.

[DragonWatcher]

Are you nuts? You think they can teach someone to work at NASA as an astronautical engineer during their years at HS? Think they can teach someone to become a petroleum engineer during HS? What about biotechnology? Think any of that stuff is possible during high school? That has got to be one of the most asinine things I have EVER heard.

I can't believe you are so ignorant to believe that college students wanting to further their education are wasting their money on an "entitlement." It is a good thing morons like yourself only get one vote.

Careful if your for college then your an elitist.

[HUM398]

Are you nuts? You think they can teach someone to work at NASA as an astronautical engineer during their years at HS? Think they can teach someone to become a petroleum engineer during HS? What about biotechnology? Think any of that stuff is possible during high school? That has got to be one of the most asinine things I have EVER heard.

I can't believe you are so ignorant to believe that college students wanting to further their education are wasting their money on an "entitlement."

Yeah thats what i said...:rolleyes:

1. NOT EVERYONE IS A FREAKING ROCKET SCIENTIST. in fact the vast majority of Americans are Blue collared workers. in which the trade can be TAUGHT at a high school level.

2. How many kids drop out of college never to finish a degree plan? Would you say it is more then half that enter? if so, then yes...they are wasting their time if thats not what they are going to do.


Some of you posters seriously make me laugh. i never once claimed that you could learn a specific field at the high school level. what i said is that our public education system could do a better job of teaching kids common trades so they can enter work straight out of High School... not everyone is a genius. People go to college, and NEVER use their degree...if you put more weight behind a High School diplmoa...a good number of students wouldn't need to waste their time getting a Business marking degree...:rolleyes: only to work at pool cleaning company for the rest of their life.

[JMSFan]

Are you nuts? You think they can teach someone to work at NASA as an astronautical engineer during their years at HS? Think they can teach someone to become a petroleum engineer during HS? What about biotechnology? Think any of that stuff is possible during high school? That has got to be one of the most asinine things I have EVER heard.

I can't believe you are so ignorant to believe that college students wanting to further their education are wasting their money on an "entitlement." It is a good thing morons like yourself only get one vote.


But you want free college education? How can you expect all of that knowledge to be free, it sounds like entitlement.

[Texasfrog]

Its about time you stop blaming someone else fro the college student choosing to go to college to acquire a degree.

If we did a better job in our Public Secondary schools in teaching children trades they can actually use when they get out of High school...we may not have so many kids trying to go to college and wasting their time and money.

This idea that College is an entitlement only proves that American have a sense of entitlement...its sad, but the American dream as we know it has changed.

AMEN.

It wont be much longer that millions of people in this country want someone to come over and wipe their :Censor: for them also.

Wait, we already have that.:rolleyes:

[HUM398]

Careful if your for college then your an elitist.

I thought liberals were suppose to be the smart ones.

Quit reading what you want, and read whats there.

[Texasfrog]

people around us every day do it. Hold the cheese on those tacos...I mean I want extra cheese on those tacos."

For all of the issues I disagree with the dude on, I find this situation very Salem-esque.

On the other hand, he could be the victim of a breach of his very own "Operation Deception," in which he hides his true self until after the election.;)

AMEN.

[HUM398]

We live in a nation of cry babies...

What... you mean i have to learn my own living???? WTF??? :rolleyes:

[tayb]

Yeah thats what i said...:rolleyes:

1. NOT EVERYONE IS A FREAKING ROCKET SCIENTIST. in fact the vast majority of Americans are Blue collared workers. in which the trade can be TAUGHT at a high school level.

2. How many kids drop out of college never to finish a degree plan? Would you say it is more then half that enter? if so, then yes...they are wasting their time if thats not what they are going to do.


Some of you posters seriously make me laugh. i never once claimed that you could learn a specific field at the high school level. what i said is that our public education system could do a better job of teaching kids common trades so they can enter work straight out of High School... not everyone is a genius. People go to college, and NEVER use their degree...if you put more weight behind a High School diplmoa...a good number of students wouldn't need to waste their time getting a Business marking degree...:rolleyes: only to work at pool cleaning company for the rest of their life.

Yeah you are right. America is falling pathetically behind other nations in the fields of math and science and you want kids to be learning trades in high school and not furthering their education.

1. Uh... have you checked the starting salaries for a 25 year old with no college degree compared to a 25 year old with a bachelors of science?

2. Half of students drop out? That is a grossly overestimated figure.

[tayb]

AMEN.

It wont be much longer that millions of people in this country want someone to come over and wipe their :Censor: for them also.

Wait, we already have that.:rolleyes:

Yeah I can see your point how college students spending countless hours a week studying AND working while piling up $50,000+ in debt to graduate into a field desperately needed by the United States is a bad thing. :rolleyes:

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket?

[tayb]

We live in a nation of cry babies...

What... you mean i have to learn my own living???? WTF??? :rolleyes:

That is pretty contradictory to your other statements right there. You think kids should graduate high school into blue collar jobs that don't pay well but it is a waste of time and money to WORK four years for a degree that will land you a job that WILL pay well.

[tayb]

But you want free college education? How can you expect all of that knowledge to be free, it sounds like entitlement.

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket?

[Texasfrog]

Yeah you are right. America is falling pathetically behind other nations in the fields of math and science and you want kids to be learning trades in high school and not furthering their education.

1. Uh... have you checked the starting salaries for a 25 year old with no college degree compared to a 25 year old with a bachelors of science?

2. Half of students drop out? That is a grossly overestimated figure.

So it's the Governments responsiblity to make sure everyone gets a college education ???

First, the problems with American Public schools is they arent allowed to teach anymore. They have to dummy down everything so we dont leave anyone behind.

The only problem with that whole dummy down crap is it doesnt up lift the bright kids. That's why America is falling behind in Math and Science.

Second, the biggest problem in America today in regards to Public education isnt the government. It's the breakup of the American family. Many of these kids are falling behind because they come from crappy Home lifes and they have "NO POSITIVE ROLE MODELS" at HOME bringing them up.

The Government cant fix everything or be there to tell everyone how to wipe their butts.

Our forefathers that went through the Great Depression have got to be rolling over in their damn graves today. America has turned into a nation of of bigtime whoosess that think the Government should be there to tell everyone how to do everything.

My God. I'm going to bed, that's why I try to stay off this political board because all it does is piss me off.

[tayb]

So it's the Governments responsiblity to make sure everyone gets a college education ???

First, the problems with American Public schools is they arent allowed to teach anymore. They have to dummy down everything so we dont leave anyone behind.

The only problem with that whole dummy down crap is it doesnt up lift the bright kids. That's why America is falling behind in Math and Science.

Second, the biggest problem in America today in regards to Public education isnt the government. It's the breakup of the American family. Many of these kids are falling behind because they come from crappy Home lifes and they have "NO POSITIVE ROLE MODELS" at HOME bringing them up.

The Government cant fix everything or be there to tell everyone how to wipe their butts.

Our forefathers that went through the Great Depression have got to be rolling over in their damn graves today. America has turned into a nation of of bigtime whoosess that think the Government should be there to tell everyone how to do everything.

My God. I'm going to bed, that's why I try to stay off this political board because all it does is piss me off.

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket? Answer me that question.

High schools can't teach what is required anymore. Fields have gotten way more advanced that there is NO WAY a high school could prepare most students for the real life. College has become an absolute necessity for anyone who wishes to "live well and prosper." I imagine there was a point in time where high school wasn't necessary and kids could graduate middle school and head straight into the factory well guess what times have changed.

Think of college as a required extension of high school. You can't get a job without a college degree even if you tried. Employers will filter your application and throw it in the trash. College is a necessity now not an elitist want or a need. I didn't pay for my elementary or middle school education out of my pocket why should I take on $50,000 debt because of YOUR generation's failed teachings at the high school level?

The only way to get a proper education is through a public university that competes for you.

[slorch]

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket? Answer me that question. yes we do, or our parents did.
High schools can't teach what is required anymore. Fields have gotten way more advanced that there is NO WAY a high school could prepare most students for the real life. College has become an absolute necessity for anyone who wishes to "live well and prosper." I imagine there was a point in time where high school wasn't necessary and kids could graduate middle school and head straight into the factory well guess what times have changed.

Think of college as a required extension of high school. You can't get a job without a college degree even if you tried. Employers will filter your application and throw it in the trash. College is a necessity now not an elitist want or a need. I didn't pay for my elementary or middle school education out of my pocket why should I take on $50,000 debt because of YOUR generation's failed teachings at the high school level?

The only way to get a proper education is through a public university that competes for you.

My contention is that colleges and universities do little to actually prepare people for "the real world" as well. Experience and the personal desire to improve one's self is the difference maker, IMO.

[SaRattlerFan]

I'm all for the free college education. It is about time we move forward and stop placing millions of kids into 50,000+ debt on a yearly basis.

I'm already paying for college on one kid and have two more to go. What's another 3 or 4. Under your plan, we would all go to work 40 to 50 hours a week and hand our paychecks over to the government. Liberals are full of good ideas with absolutley no clue how to pay for them. While we're at it, why don't buy cars for low income folks so they can get to work.

[KLH75287]

So it's the Governments responsiblity to make sure everyone gets a college education ???

First, the problems with American Public schools is they arent allowed to teach anymore. They have to dummy down everything so we dont leave anyone behind.

The only problem with that whole dummy down crap is it doesnt up lift the bright kids. That's why America is falling behind in Math and Science.

Second, the biggest problem in America today in regards to Public education isnt the government. It's the breakup of the American family. Many of these kids are falling behind because they come from crappy Home lifes and they have "NO POSITIVE ROLE MODELS" at HOME bringing them up.

The Government cant fix everything or be there to tell everyone how to wipe their butts.

Our forefathers that went through the Great Depression have got to be rolling over in their damn graves today. America has turned into a nation of of bigtime whoosess that think the Government should be there to tell everyone how to do everything.

My God. I'm going to bed, that's why I try to stay off this political board because all it does is piss me off.

TEXAS FROG for PREZ!

[KLH75287]

I'm already paying for college on one kid and have two more to go. What's another 3 or 4. Under your plan, we would all go to work 40 to 50 hours a week and hand our paychecks over to the government. Liberals are full of good ideas with absolutley no clue how to pay for them. While we're at it, why don't buy cars for low income folks so they can get to work.

And maybe we can pay for the gas and insurance as well. We can even just let them show up and not make them work so the companies that hire them can get a check from the government (more tax payer money), and not be able to fire them and hire someone who has his own car, buys his own gas, and wants to work and improve his family's future!

Maybe we can get the libs to ad that to there platform.

It could go right along with all the other programs / welfare they are offering.

I wonder why it is that an American worker has to take a drug test before he can go to work, but a welfare recipient doersn't have to be drug free to get a check?

[SaRattlerFan]

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket? Answer me that question.

I didn't pay for my elementary or middle school education out of my pocket why should I take on $50,000 debt because of YOUR generation's failed teachings at the high school level?



No, your parents and other taxpayers paid for your education through property taxes. Now you want to burden parents and taxpayers more to give you a free ride through college. Here's a thought - get a job and pay your own way through college like millions of other Americans do.

[pied]

And maybe we can pay for the gas and insurance as well. We can even just let them show up and not make them work so the companies that hire them can get a check from the government (more tax payer money), and not be able to fire them and hire someone who has his own car, buys his own gas, and wants to work and improve his family's future!

Maybe we can get the libs to ad that to there platform.

It could go right along with all the other programs / welfare they are offering.

I wonder why it is that an American worker has to take a drug test before he can go to work, but a welfare recipient doersn't have to be drug free to get a check?


Have you read about McCain's GAP plan? How about the Health tax credit?

Just wondering.

[pied]

Our forefathers that went through the Great Depression have got to be rolling over in their damn graves today. America has turned into a nation of of bigtime whoosess that think the Government should be there to tell everyone how to do everything.


Hmm

Who do you think got us into the Great Depression?

Do you think they were against the massive Work Projects of the New Deal, largely put forth by FDR whom they elected FOUR times?

Do you think that the government giving jobs to millions either in the military or creating military goods, all of which was paid for by the government helped out the economy?

Are those the same forefathers?

[SaRattlerFan]

Hmm


Do you think that the government giving jobs to millions either in the military or creating military goods, all of which was paid for by the government helped out the economy?



So in your world, we as a people get nothing in return for those "given jobs to the military"? I don't mind giving tax dollars to protect my freedom and way of life. I do have a problem giving my money to people that are to lazy to work their own way through college.

[KLH75287]

Very profound!

You have to love Sir Charles!


Quote of the week from Sir Charles Barkley:

"Poor People have been voting for Democrats
for the last 50 years ... and they are still poor."

[pied]

So in your world, we as a people get nothing in return for those "given jobs to the military"? I don't mind giving tax dollars to protect my freedom and way of life. I do have a problem giving my money to people that are to lazy to work their own way through college.

Well my world is your world. I just found it very interesting that we(Texasfrog/KLH75287 actually) are extolling the virtue of the people of the Depression. I think that they relied on the government as much as anyone in history to get out of the Depression.

I am certainly not advocating free college eductaion, although I am certainly in favor of the GI Bill and would likely be supportive of some sort of simliar Public Works type program.

[drgnbkr]

Hmm

Who do you think got us into the Great Depression?

Do you think they were against the massive Work Projects of the New Deal, largely put forth by FDR whom they elected FOUR times?

Do you think that the government giving jobs to millions either in the military or creating military goods, all of which was paid for by the government helped out the economy?

Are those the same forefathers?

FDR set the tone for the illogical liberal ideas of today...Great Society? Not..

[HUM398]

Yeah you are right. America is falling pathetically behind other nations in the fields of math and science and you want kids to be learning trades in high school and not furthering their education.

1. Uh... have you checked the starting salaries for a 25 year old with no college degree compared to a 25 year old with a bachelors of science?

2. Half of students drop out? That is a grossly overestimated figure.


Thats because we have more students coming out of High School that go to a College then most nations do. You don't have a clear understanding on how european nations handle their education systems. Many many kids below a certain score go to specialized schools to learn trades because they aren't good enough. We send kids that just aren't ready to go to college, and may never be ready to college so they can fail... We set a standard that everyone MUST go to college and if you don't then you are an idiot nobody.

The reason why someone that is 25 years old with no college degree has a lower income then someone with a higher degree of eduction is simple...Qualification. One kid has the ability and skills learned from studying, the other does not. Every kid is different and their skills range from poor to great. Everyone deserves the oppurtunity to earn their way to college, not deserve to be sent to college to see if they are capable of making it.

Once people realizes that everyone is equal under the law, but not equal in ability the better off we will all be. This isn't one of those equations where any said variable will compute to the same outcome. If you take a kid that struggled through High School, with no motive to work hard, and simply just a low IQ...you can't make him a success...only he can do so. He is better off learning something he loves to do in a trade school, then he is going to college to get the typical Education degree.

Not everyone deserves to be rich...sorry to burst the misconception. Not everyone deserves to be comfortable... not everyone deserves a college education.

I don't want to pay for a Kid that is being pressured to go to college because the society we live in dictates that if you don't you are a nobody.

If you don't believe Americans have a sense of entitlement just look at all the jobs illegals own simply because Americans are "better than that".

NOT EVERYONE IS SMART ENOUGH TO GO TO COLLEGE. so why should it be a right?

If they want to pay their own way, and give it a try....then good, i hope they succeed...but if not, then they will have to pay the consequence...its is no fault but their own.

[pied]

FDR set the tone for the illogical liberal ideas of today...Great Society? Not..

OK, but we seem to be extolling the virtues of the generation that elected him four times and looked to him to help out, correct? They elected him three times before WWII.

Our forefathers that went through the Great Depression have got to be rolling over in their damn graves today. America has turned into a nation of of bigtime whoosess that think the Government should be there to tell everyone how to do everything.

[chhspantherfan]

Thats because we have more students coming out of High School that go to a College then most nations do. You don't have a clear understanding on how european nations handle their education systems. Many many kids below a certain score go to specialized schools to learn trades because they aren't good enough. We send kids that just aren't ready to go to college, and may never be ready to college so they can fail... We set a standard that everyone MUST go to college and if you don't then you are an idiot nobody.

The reason why someone that is 25 years old with no college degree has a lower income then someone with a higher degree of eduction is simple...Qualification. One kid has the ability and skills learned from studying, the other does not. Every kid is different and their skills range from poor to great. Everyone deserves the oppurtunity to earn their way to college, not deserve to be sent to college to see if they are capable of making it.
Once people realizes that everyone is equal under the law, but not equal in ability the better off we will all be. This isn't one of those equations where any said variable will compute to the same outcome. If you take a kid that struggled through High School, with no motive to work hard, and simply just a low IQ...you can't make him a success...only he can do so. He is better off learning something he loves to do in a trade school, then he is going to college to get the typical Education degree.
Not everyone deserves to be rich...sorry to burst the misconception. Not everyone deserves to be comfortable... not everyone deserves a college education.

I don't want to pay for a Kid that is being pressured to go to college because the society we live in dictates that if you don't you are a nobody.

If you don't believe Americans have a sense of entitlement just look at all the jobs illegals own simply because Americans are "better than that".

NOT EVERYONE IS SMART ENOUGH TO GO TO COLLEGE. so why should it be a right?

If they want to pay their own way, and give it a try....then good, i hope they succeed...but if not, then they will have to pay the consequence...its is no fault but their own.

Well from this idiot nobody who made a career work without a degree, I couldn't agree more. Would there be more advancement opportunities if I had a degree? Yes, and that is a thought of mine at times. pretty much fleeting. What I have found is that you are paid exactly what you are worth. If you need more money, then go make it. It is that simple. Go to work! Now, will you have a better chance of landing a more secure position if you have a degree? Probably, but security means less pay in that case. So what do you want? Security (less money)? Or do you want the $$ ? There is more risk at the top income levels as there are more people seeking them and greater expectations from theose employing them. Performance is a greater issue. It becomes generational as your children will see your example and have the same expectations of themselves. This is evidenced by overachieving communities. Thanks for letting this idiot nobody post ;)

[HUM398]

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket? Answer me that question.

High schools can't teach what is required anymore. Fields have gotten way more advanced that there is NO WAY a high school could prepare most students for the real life. College has become an absolute necessity for anyone who wishes to "live well and prosper." I imagine there was a point in time where high school wasn't necessary and kids could graduate middle school and head straight into the factory well guess what times have changed.

Think of college as a required extension of high school. You can't get a job without a college degree even if you tried. Employers will filter your application and throw it in the trash. College is a necessity now not an elitist want or a need. I didn't pay for my elementary or middle school education out of my pocket why should I take on $50,000 debt because of YOUR generation's failed teachings at the high school level?

The only way to get a proper education is through a public university that competes for you.

I love the liberal way of thinking...:rolleyes:

if its broken, just make it work smoother so less people notice.

The reason why its tougher for people to live in our economy isn't because of a lack of college education...its because a lack of skill in any said field.

When was the last time you saw a 19 year old male able to go out and fix his mom's car? When was the last time you saw a 19 year old male able to fix a shelf on his own wall....

How many kids can lay down tile?

How many 19 year old guys can fix their own cars?

How many 19 year old women can fix their own dress?

How many AMERICANS can do their own lawn?

How many americans can fix their own Air Conditioning?

How many Americans are fimilar with construction?

How many Americans are qualified to work in a factory?

every job these days requires said number of years experiance....you have 24 year old adults still working at fast food joints because they have no skills. Their is a varitey of jobs that could be filled by Americans but aren't because they are "better then that". Blue collar work isn't shameful. i admire those that do it, because THEY are the backbone of America...and always have been. GoOwls is one of the posters that i respect the most on this board...he goes out every day and delivers mail to every day americans...


Teach kids common trades, and if they don't go to college they will be able to make a decent living. We set these kids up to fail. This country use to teach kids how to work, and now they probably wouldn't know a working glove if they saw one.

[HUM398]

Well from this idiot nobody who made a career work without a degree, I couldn't agree more. Would there be more advancement opportunities if I had a degree? Yes, and that is a thought of mine at times. pretty much fleeting. What I have found is that you are paid exactly what you are worth. If you need more money, then go make it. It is that simple. Go to work! Now, will you have a better chance of landing a more secure position if you have a degree? Probably, but security means less pay in that case. So what do you want? Security (less money)? Or do you want the $$ ? There is more risk at the top income levels as there are more people seeking them and greater expectations from theose employing them. Performance is a greater issue. It becomes generational as your children will see your example and have the same expectations of themselves. This is evidenced by overachieving communities. Thanks for letting this idiot nobody post ;)

;)

No problem..i consider the Idiot Nobody the backbone of America.

[Firebird]

Thats because we have more students coming out of High School that go to a College then most nations do. You don't have a clear understanding on how european nations handle their education systems. Many many kids below a certain score go to specialized schools to learn trades because they aren't good enough. We send kids that just aren't ready to go to college, and may never be ready to college so they can fail... We set a standard that everyone MUST go to college and if you don't then you are an idiot nobody.

The reason why someone that is 25 years old with no college degree has a lower income then someone with a higher degree of eduction is simple...Qualification. One kid has the ability and skills learned from studying, the other does not. Every kid is different and their skills range from poor to great. Everyone deserves the oppurtunity to earn their way to college, not deserve to be sent to college to see if they are capable of making it.

Once people realizes that everyone is equal under the law, but not equal in ability the better off we will all be. This isn't one of those equations where any said variable will compute to the same outcome. If you take a kid that struggled through High School, with no motive to work hard, and simply just a low IQ...you can't make him a success...only he can do so. He is better off learning something he loves to do in a trade school, then he is going to college to get the typical Education degree.

Not everyone deserves to be rich...sorry to burst the misconception. Not everyone deserves to be comfortable... not everyone deserves a college education.

I don't want to pay for a Kid that is being pressured to go to college because the society we live in dictates that if you don't you are a nobody.

If you don't believe Americans have a sense of entitlement just look at all the jobs illegals own simply because Americans are "better than that".

NOT EVERYONE IS SMART ENOUGH TO GO TO COLLEGE. so why should it be a right?

If they want to pay their own way, and give it a try....then good, i hope they succeed...but if not, then they will have to pay the consequence...its is no fault but their own.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but there is a key distinction that you are forgetting about, and that is the extensive social safety net that most Europeans have to work with. (That is, except for their own illegal immigrants, who also often do the most menial task. That's right, folks, the USA is not the only nation with this issue.)

A tradesman or even janitor in Europe is well aware of the extensive safety net that the system provides him. He does not have to worry about being caught without health insurance. He knows that he will be provided with a fairly decent home. He will be supported in his old age with a more generous state pension. He has access to a well developed system of public transportation and can likely live quite happily without a car. If you work in a low paying job, you are not facing a life of uncertainty, you do not worry about everything disappearing with your next paycheck, you do not dread getting hospititalized. You live with a lower level of discretionary income, to be sure, but do not have to worry about the necessities.

There are quite a few jobs in the states that offer non-college graduate, vocationally trained individuals the chance to make a good living for themselves and their families. Hardly anyone would argue that those jobs are going away rapidly and become fewer with every generation. This is a result of the relentless march of technology, innovation, and the free market, which to my mind is a good thing. Virtually all of the unskilled labor jobs in the United States offer little more than a bare living wage, and a person living paycheck to paycheck truly does live in fear of falling ill or getting behind on a payment, or having unexpected expenses arise. These people quite rightly look at a college degree as a key to advancement and thus clamour for access to universities and colleges. Their clamour would not be quite so loud if the penatly for failing to get into college was not so steep. Of course thousands of kids try and fail at college--- the game is deadly serious and they know what is at stake.

In short, the (some) European made a conscious choice to institute a ruthlessly competitive system of education that denies from childhood many people access to the "key" to a prestigious or well paying job. It does so soley on the basis of innate gifts people are born with or not born with. In exchange for denying them access to the upper echelons, they offer an extensive social safety net and the promise that they will not end up leading a near intolerable existence. There is always a cost, and those Europeans have chosen to accept that cost.

Such a system would be intolerable in the United States. Christening children as "college material" from an early age in a society where a college degree is becoming more and more a necessary element for a "normal" life will never get off of the ground. It becomes a door slammed shut in people's faces, virtually guaranteeing that many people can never hope that their children could advance beyond their parents' postitions-- a position they recognize as a bad one. The "American Dream" only works if it is still something that can be obtained.


Please note that I am not advocating for either system-- merely pointing out the whole story.

[Firebird]

I love the liberal way of thinking...:rolleyes:

if its broken, just make it work smoother so less people notice.

The reason why its tougher for people to live in our economy isn't because of a lack of college education...its because a lack of skill in any said field.

When was the last time you saw a 19 year old male able to go out and fix his mom's car? When was the last time you saw a 19 year old male able to fix a shelf on his own wall....

How many kids can lay down tile?

How many 19 year old guys can fix their own cars?

How many 19 year old women can fix their own dress?

How many AMERICANS can do their own lawn?

How many americans can fix their own Air Conditioning?

How many Americans are fimilar with construction?

How many Americans are qualified to work in a factory?

every job these days requires said number of years experiance....you have 24 year old adults still working at fast food joints because they have no skills. Their is a varitey of jobs that could be filled by Americans but aren't because they are "better then that". Blue collar work isn't shameful. i admire those that do it, because THEY are the backbone of America...and always have been. GoOwls is one of the posters that i respect the most on this board...he goes out every day and delivers mail to every day americans...


Teach kids common trades, and if they don't go to college they will be able to make a decent living. We set these kids up to fail. This country use to teach kids how to work, and now they probably wouldn't know a working glove if they saw one.

GoOwls has a federal job which offers a guaranteed and generous pension, top quality health insurance at an affordable cost, and numerous other benefits. I dare say that GoOwls would be much less enamored of his salary if you stripped away all of the benefits which come with a federal job. That is the position that most people find themselves in when looking at the job market and no college degree.

Learning trades is excellent and a good thing, but try to find a construction company that offers a good 401(k) plan, or health insurance. Laying tile or bricks is necessary and useful, but try to keep up with house payments, car payments, and health care for yourself and your family on a bricklayers salary. Outside of major cities, try and find a way to work on public transportation.

People do not turn down good jobs because it is beneath them. It is very possible that the kid behind the counter at the fast food restaurant enjoys better benefits and job security than the guy who built the building. That is a fact of life. People make rational choices here, and manual labor these days is not something you go into if you have an alternative.

[HUM398]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but there is a key distinction that you are forgetting about, and that is the extensive social safety net that most Europeans have to work with. (That is, except for their own illegal immigrants, who also often do the most menial task. That's right, folks, the USA is not the only nation with this issue.)

A tradesman or even janitor in Europe is well aware of the extensive safety net that the system provides him. He does not have to worry about being caught without health insurance. He knows that he will be provided with a fairly decent home. He will be supported in his old age with a more generous state pension. He has access to a well developed system of public transportation and can likely live quite happily without a car. If you work in a low paying job, you are not facing a life of uncertainty, you do not worry about everything disappearing with your next paycheck, you do not dread getting hospititalized. You live with a lower level of discretionary income, to be sure, but do not have to worry about the necessities.

There are quite a few jobs in the states that offer non-college graduate, vocationally trained individuals the chance to make a good living for themselves and their families. Hardly anyone would argue that those jobs are going away rapidly and become fewer with every generation. This is a result of the relentless march of technology, innovation, and the free market, which to my mind is a good thing. Virtually all of the unskilled labor jobs in the United States offer little more than a bare living wage, and a person living paycheck to paycheck truly does live in fear of falling ill or getting behind on a payment, or having unexpected expenses arise. These people quite rightly look at a college degree as a key to advancement and thus clamour for access to universities and colleges. Their clamour would not be quite so loud if the penatly for failing to get into college was not so steep. Of course thousands of kids try and fail at college--- the game is deadly serious and they know what is at stake.

In short, the (some) European made a conscious choice to institute a ruthlessly competitive system of education that denies from childhood many people access to the "key" to a prestigious or well paying job. It does so soley on the basis of innate gifts people are born with or not born with. In exchange for denying them access to the upper echelons, they offer an extensive social safety net and the promise that they will not end up leading a near intolerable existence. There is always a cost, and those Europeans have chosen to accept that cost.

Such a system would be intolerable in the United States. Christening children as "college material" from an early age in a society where a college degree is becoming more and more a necessary element for a "normal" life will never get off of the ground. It becomes a door slammed shut in people's faces, virtually guaranteeing that many people can never hope that their children could advance beyond their parents' postitions-- a position they recognize as a bad one. The "American Dream" only works if it is still something that can be obtained.


Please note that I am not advocating for either system-- merely pointing out the whole story.

I'm well aware of all that. and i wasn't advocating for the system either. Its prohibiting, and really takes the option of college of the table all together. They do a good job of filtering out those they deem unteachable.

I am simply saying that European nations stats are fluffed because most don't know or understand the process in which most EU nations operate their Educational system.

We should be teaching our children more trades, to give them more options. I am not for restricting students from wanting to further their education...more power to you if you think you can do it. I am simply saying that we should have more weight behind our High School Diploma other then a 4 year attendance award.

Liberals want to change things, without fixing things. By making college education a right of entitlement...you are actually hurting your kids rather then helping them.

Most liberals find the "pull yourself from your own bootstraps" as an atrocious stance. i find that any other way is naive and ignorant to the human condition.

[JMSFan]

Did you pay for your high school diploma out of your pocket?

2 different worlds, you said so yourself.

[HUM398]

GoOwls has a federal job which offers a guaranteed and generous pension, top quality health insurance at an affordable cost, and numerous other benefits. I dare say that GoOwls would be much less enamored of his salary if you stripped away all of the benefits which come with a federal job. That is the position that most people find themselves in when looking at the job market and no college degree.

Learning trades is excellent and a good thing, but try to find a construction company that offers a good 401(k) plan, or health insurance. Laying tile or bricks is necessary and useful, but try to keep up with house payments, car payments, and health care for yourself and your family on a bricklayers salary. Outside of major cities, try and find a way to work on public transportation.

People do not turn down good jobs because it is beneath them. It is very possible that the kid behind the counter at the fast food restaurant enjoys better benefits and job security than the guy who built the building. That is a fact of life. People make rational choices here, and manual labor these days is not something you go into if you have an alternative.

People DO turn down jobs because it beneath them. Firebird, i have grown up around poor people my entire life...I have family on Welfare, i know the mentality well. They don't work for better paying jobs because of the following.

1. They don't have the skill

or

2. They don't want to work that hard to move up to attain positions with benefits.

or

3. They don't want to get dirty.

[HUM398]

GoOwls has a federal job which offers a guaranteed and generous pension, top quality health insurance at an affordable cost, and numerous other benefits. I dare say that GoOwls would be much less enamored of his salary if you stripped away all of the benefits which come with a federal job. That is the position that most people find themselves in when looking at the job market and no college degree.

Learning trades is excellent and a good thing, but try to find a construction company that offers a good 401(k) plan, or health insurance. Laying tile or bricks is necessary and useful, but try to keep up with house payments, car payments, and health care for yourself and your family on a bricklayers salary. Outside of major cities, try and find a way to work on public transportation.

People do not turn down good jobs because it is beneath them. It is very possible that the kid behind the counter at the fast food restaurant enjoys better benefits and job security than the guy who built the building. That is a fact of life. People make rational choices here, and manual labor these days is not something you go into if you have an alternative.

No jobs comes with perks, they are earned. They system is screwed up, and i won't say that it isn't... But the progressive mentality often yields itself to complicating a system rather then just throwing it out or completely fixing it.

Is Health care an issue...yes. Is Socialized heath care the answer...no.

If Americans worked together Liberal and Conservative alike, we can find something that works. but partisan rhetoric has never yielded much success.....

The less we can depend on the government the better the future of this country. If they can give it to you, they can control it.

[Firebird]

No jobs comes with perks, they are earned. They system is screwed up, and i won't say that it isn't... But the progressive mentality often yields itself to complicating a system rather then just throwing it out or completely fixing it.

Is Health care an issue...yes. Is Socialized heath care the answer...no.

If Americans worked together Liberal and Conservative alike, we can find something that works. but partisan rhetoric has never yielded much success.....

The less we can depend on the government the better the future of this country. If they can give it to you, they can control it.

I completely agree with the closing statement, although I would dispute the first. I know plenty of people in very comfortable jobs (mostly state/local government) who "earned" them by knowing the person doing the hiring.

[the_phoenix612]

Thats because we have more students coming out of High School that go to a College then most nations do. You don't have a clear understanding on how european nations handle their education systems. Many many kids below a certain score go to specialized schools to learn trades because they aren't good enough. We send kids that just aren't ready to go to college, and may never be ready to college so they can fail... We set a standard that everyone MUST go to college and if you don't then you are an idiot nobody.

The reason why someone that is 25 years old with no college degree has a lower income then someone with a higher degree of eduction is simple...Qualification. One kid has the ability and skills learned from studying, the other does not. Every kid is different and their skills range from poor to great. Everyone deserves the oppurtunity to earn their way to college, not deserve to be sent to college to see if they are capable of making it.

Once people realizes that everyone is equal under the law, but not equal in ability the better off we will all be. This isn't one of those equations where any said variable will compute to the same outcome. If you take a kid that struggled through High School, with no motive to work hard, and simply just a low IQ...you can't make him a success...only he can do so. He is better off learning something he loves to do in a trade school, then he is going to college to get the typical Education degree.

Not everyone deserves to be rich...sorry to burst the misconception. Not everyone deserves to be comfortable... not everyone deserves a college education.

I don't want to pay for a Kid that is being pressured to go to college because the society we live in dictates that if you don't you are a nobody.

If you don't believe Americans have a sense of entitlement just look at all the jobs illegals own simply because Americans are "better than that".

NOT EVERYONE IS SMART ENOUGH TO GO TO COLLEGE. so why should it be a right?

If they want to pay their own way, and give it a try....then good, i hope they succeed...but if not, then they will have to pay the consequence...its is no fault but their own.

I don't recall anybody saying we should pay for everyone to go to college.

What I remember seeing is a proposal to make it EASIER to pay for college.

I agree with you that many people that go to college should not be there.

I'm surrounded by many of them right now in my History for non-majors class.

But consider how many smart kids that SHOULD go to college CAN'T because of financial conditions...

The smartest girl I have ever met is scraping her way through the Florida community college system, when she could get into any Ivy League school she wanted.

[the_phoenix612]

No jobs comes with perks, they are earned. They system is screwed up, and i won't say that it isn't... But the progressive mentality often yields itself to complicating a system rather then just throwing it out or completely fixing it.

Is Health care an issue...yes. Is Socialized heath care the answer...no.

If Americans worked together Liberal and Conservative alike, we can find something that works. but partisan rhetoric has never yielded much success.....

The less we can depend on the government the better the future of this country. If they can give it to you, they can control it.

In your opinion, what is?

[HUM398]

I don't recall anybody saying we should pay for everyone to go to college.

What I remember seeing is a proposal to make it EASIER to pay for college.

I agree with you that many people that go to college should not be there.

I'm surrounded by many of them right now in my History for non-majors class.

But consider how many smart kids that SHOULD go to college CAN'T because of financial conditions...

The smartest girl I have ever met is scraping her way through the Florida community college system, when she could get into any Ivy League school she wanted.

Easier by making it a right... Don't be naive.

And i would suggest that she apply early for scholarships, and if she is as intelligent as you say...their is means to get her way through school...Money is there, you just need to know where to look . i paid for my own college, and i had nothing...so i know she can do the same.

[HUM398]

In your opinion, what is?

I have no set plan.

But my stance is that it isn't the governments place to step in...and that it is better if we put the power in the peoples hands.

I'm not going to B.S you...i haven't thought about it long enough to come up with something.

[the_phoenix612]

I have no set plan.

But my stance is that it isn't the governments place to step in...and that it is better if we put the power in the peoples hands.

I'm not going to B.S you...i haven't thought about it long enough to come up with something.

Fair enough.

We just disagree.

You apparently have more faith in people than I do.

[HUM398]

Fair enough.

We just disagree.

You apparently have more faith in people than I do.

Its not that i have more faith in people, i just don't think its any of the governments business.

I don't like big government, because i DON'T have faith in people. see your line of thinking only works if people are honest and not greed entrenched. unfortunately humans are wretched creatures who only care about personal gain rather then community.

Communism and socialism don't work because people become obsessed with power, and the only way to prevent a minority from ruling the majority is to reduce the roll and power a government body can have over any said group of people.

[Firebird]

Fair enough.

We just disagree.

You apparently have more faith in people than I do.

Who will be devising, administering, and overseeing any governmental health care plan? Androids?

[HUM398]

Who will be devising, administering, and overseeing any governmental health care plan? Androids?

I hope they are fembots that look like Andriana Lima

[the_phoenix612]

Its not that i have more faith in people, i just don't think its any of the governments business.

I don't like big government, because i DON'T have faith in people. see your line of thinking only works if people are honest and not greed entrenched. unfortunately humans are wretched creatures who only care about personal gain rather then community.

Communism and socialism don't work because people become obsessed with power, and the only way to prevent a minority from ruling the majority is to reduce the roll and power a government body can have over any said group of people.

ah, but there are times we NEED minority disproportion.

slavery, womens suffrage, religious freedom, etc.

if the majority ruled the way you suggest, we'd still be British.

[the_phoenix612]

I hope they are fembots that look like Andriana Lima

no complaints here :D

[the_phoenix612]

Who will be devising, administering, and overseeing any governmental health care plan? Androids?

a Committee.

ideally, balanced between all factions.

no system is perfect, but IMO, and in many, many other people's opinions also, this one is best.

[Firebird]

ah, but there are times we NEED minority disproportion.

slavery, womens suffrage, religious freedom, etc.

if the majority ruled the way you suggest, we'd still be British.

You are correct in that the founders worried at least as much about the tyranny of the majority as they did about an elitist ruling class. In fact, there are many arguments to be made in favor of the hypothesis that the founders intended to replace one elitist ruling class with another, slightly larger one.

[HUM398]

ah, but there are times we NEED minority disproportion.

slavery, womens suffrage, religious freedom, etc.

if the majority ruled the way you suggest, we'd still be British.

how?

you fail...and this time i give you a F

[Firebird]

a Committee.

ideally, balanced between all factions.

no system is perfect, but IMO, and in many, many other people's opinions also, this one is best.

You make some valid points, but here you are are just digging yourself deeper on this one. Did you seriously just suggest "a committee?" HUM's fembots shaped like Adriana Lima stand a better chance at effectively creating and adminstering a health care system than any committee ever devised.

[HUM398]

You are correct in that the founders worried at least as much about the tyranny of the majority as they did about an elitist ruling class. In fact, there are many arguments to be made in favor of the hypothesis that the founders intended to replace one elitist ruling class with another, slightly larger one.

maybe i am missing something...

[HUM398]

You make some valid points, but here you are are just digging yourself deeper on this one. Did you seriously just suggest "a committee?" HUM's fembots shaped like Adriana Lima stand a better chance at effectively creating and adminstering a health care system than any committee ever devised.

WHOOH!

i love me some fembots.

[Firebird]

maybe i am missing something...

No you're not. There was a dang good reason that the founders created the electoral college, a bicameral house with the upper house NOT being directly elected, and a powerful Supreme Court. There was a good reason voting rights were restricted to white, property owning males. There's a good reason they made a republic and not a democracy. There is a good reason the severely circumscribed the power of the directly elected house, through the bill of rights and other tools. In their eyes, democracy was a good thing so long as it was exercised by an enlightened few.

[the_phoenix612]

You make some valid points, but here you are are just digging yourself deeper on this one. Did you seriously just suggest "a committee?" HUM's fembots shaped like Adriana Lima stand a better chance at effectively creating and adminstering a health care system than any committee ever devised.

hey, i admitted that it might not be the best system, and that there IS no PERFECT system.

what would YOU suggest?

[the_phoenix612]

how?

you fail...and this time i give you a F

population of colonies: 1775: 2,418,000. It is accepted that 15%-20% were loyal to the crown
population of colonies neutral or supportive of revolution: 1,934,400-2,055,300
population of England: 1775: 8,691,000

take a vote?

we stay English.

[GoOwls]

No you're not. There was a dang good reason that the founders created the electoral college, a bicameral house with the upper house NOT being directly elected, and a powerful Supreme Court. There was a good reason voting rights were restricted to white, property owning males. There's a good reason they made a republic and not a democracy. There is a good reason the severely circumscribed the power of the directly elected house, through the bill of rights and other tools. In their eyes, democracy was a good thing so long as it was exercised by an enlightened few.

Smart men.....glad we had 'em to start this joint....:D

[mad_fan]

You make some valid points, but here you are are just digging yourself deeper on this one. Did you seriously just suggest "a committee?" HUM's fembots shaped like Adriana Lima stand a better chance at effectively creating and adminstering a health care system than any committee ever devised.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l243/jmcdmc/li_13507.jpg

Even I will join 'the committee'...
And I haven't read the thread...
Just searching for 'Adriana'...:D

[RocklandDragon]

Goodness gracious, this thread got seriously hijacked.

Wasn't it orginally about Obama's gaffe about "my Muslim faith?"

Eh...to me it was just an accidental slip. I don't believe he is Muslim and to me it would only matter if he believed or sided with the extremists, which to my knowledge he does not.

As far as dealing with the extremists, that's a different matter and which others would decide their vote on that, I'd imagine.

Now...to the paying college debate. So, I am paying for school to get a better job and be more productive and creative in society, right?

Sounds fine to me. I hate that college is high. I hate that I have to work and go to school. Honestly, though, it is impossible to give everyone a FREE college education. The states and national government's budget would be broken because of it. There is just too many people for the state and nation to support for it. I would think that efforts for scholarships would be subdued because of this safety net. It's just not that realistic, especially since all colleges seem to do is raise costs at every turn which would raise the burden on everyone.

Now...that's what I'd like to see is college costs controlled. Jeez! This should not be outpacing inflation as bad as it is...

:eek:

[KLH75287]

From an employer's stand point; give me a guy who worked his way through anyday. I know going in that he/she has the character to commit and tough it out until they reach their objective. That puts them way ahead of a candidate who all they had to do was show up.

I agree a college education should be more obtainable by those who desire it, but I don't want to spend a dime on someone who doesn't get the value of it and is willing to do whatever it takes to get it.

There arent many things that don't lose it's value if it's free.