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View Full Version : Competitive 2A and 3A schools



StateSpeech97
08-23-2008, 03:33 PM
My friend from Celina told me that they could easily be a top 10 team in 5A. Does anyone know of any other 2A or 3A schools that could actually compete with the 5A?

Plano West Wolf
08-23-2008, 03:37 PM
I doubt they'd be top 10 in 5A. They'd be competitive but their ultimate lack of players and depth compared to the 5A programs would be their undoing.

Empire strikes back
08-23-2008, 03:57 PM
Well, maybe Abilene Wylie, Snyder, Brownwood, Celina, and China Springs???




________________________________________________

Mess With the Best, Die Like The Rest

baseballer08
08-23-2008, 03:59 PM
the 1999 mart panthers could have beat quite a few 5a team easily

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 04:14 PM
the 1999 mart panthers could have beat quite a few 5a team easily

The 99 Mart Panters would not have beat Celina had they played. Would have been a great game but Celina would have ultimately won. I know that Mart had the Cosby bros and John Garrett, they just were not as good as Celina.
I however do agree that both Mart and Celina could have beaten some 5A teams but not quite a few.

grayowl60
08-23-2008, 04:19 PM
A very good 3A program will have two or three very good players every year, and a Dl recruite every couple of years. A very good 5A program will have six or seven very good players every year, and one or two Dl recruites EVERY year.

BandidoNB
08-23-2008, 04:22 PM
3A's struggle in higher classes.

I remember when Burnet was a two-time 3A state finalist and moved up to 4A, they got 2nd in district and bowed out in the 1st round their inaugural 4A year. They also were feeling gutsy enough to schedule 5A San Marcos and got blown out. Then they missed the playoffs the following year.

Obviously this case is specific to Burnet, but I think it might apply to several 3A's

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 04:32 PM
3A's struggle in higher classes.

I remember when Burnet was a two-time 3A state finalist and moved up to 4A, they got 2nd in district and bowed out in the 1st round their inaugural 4A year. They also were feeling gutsy enough to schedule 5A San Marcos and got blown out. Then they missed the playoffs the following year.

Obviously this case is specific to Burnet, but I think it might apply to several 3A's

But Everman goes up from 3A to 4A and all they have done is go 4 rounds deep their first year and followed that up by going 14-1 and reaching the state semifinals their second year.
I am sure as far as Burnet is concerned that had more to do with losing players such as Shipley and McGee than anything.

slorch
08-23-2008, 04:39 PM
I am as big of small school fan as there is on here, and IMO, the only way a 2A or 3A school even touches a good 5A squad is if they are just absolutely loaded like the Gilmer team a few years ago, and they didn't even win State in 3A.

As the others have pointed out, it becomes a battle of sheer numbers, as in depth and the quantity of good all around players. A small school could very well have the skill positions nailed and even have a few great OL, but the odds of them also having additional elite athletes to man the defense are just astronomical.

WOS87
08-23-2008, 04:57 PM
Don't know about 5A (although WO-S has a 5-5 record against West Brook) but we definitely hold our own against the local 4A "powers"


3A WO-S has either beaten the local 4A district champions or been the local 4A district champions 10 out of the past 11 years (with a 1 pt loss preventing it being 11 straight) so it would be pretty cool if Nederland (whom we play in Week 0 and is the favorite to win 20-4A) goes on to win the district to keep the streak going!

2007 Dayton 14, WO-S 22
2006 Dayton 9, WO-S 26
2005 Beaumont Central 12, WO-S 28
2004 Nederland 30, WO-S 32
2003 PN-G 20, WO-S 21
2002 Ozen 7, WO-S 6
2001 Pt Arthur Lincoln 8, WO-S 24
2000 WO-S (5-0-0 20-4A District Champs)
1999 PN-G 14, WO-S 21
1998 WO-S (7-0-0 20-4A District Champs)
1997 WO-S (7-0-0 20-4A District Champs)

grayowl60
08-23-2008, 05:00 PM
I am as big of small school fan as there is on here, and IMO, the only way a 2A or 3A school even touches a good 5A squad is if they are just absolutely loaded like the Gilmer team a few years ago, and they didn't even win State in 3A.

As the others have pointed out, it becomes a battle of sheer numbers, as in depth and the quantity of good all around players. A small school could very well have the skill positions nailed and even have a few great OL, but the odds of them also having additional elite athletes to man the defense are just astronomical.
It happens, A school will catch lighning in a bottle. Like Daingerfield 1983:eek:

slorch
08-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Wos is similar to Everman in that it has been in 4A before, and has bounced down to 3A. They are two of the very largest 3A schools with some of the very best talent. Just think of someone like Newton or W-EC taking on a 5A school:eek:

If W-OS or Everman played Lufkin or North Shore how do you think it would go?

slorch
08-23-2008, 05:06 PM
It happens, A school will catch lighning in a bottle. Like Daingerfield 1983:eek:

OK, 25 years ago, and that is arguably the best 3A team ever.

WOS87
08-23-2008, 05:09 PM
If W-OS or Everman played Lufkin or North Shore how do you think it would go?

IMO it would be closer than you might think. We were the smallest 5A school in the state when we came within 9 minutes of knocking off Houston Yates in '85

It was tied 6-6 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th quarter with WOS leading 4-1 in penetrations in the 5A Regional Semifinals

Wagnerdad
08-23-2008, 05:30 PM
Love the small schools, but no way they could handle a 5A schedule over the course of the year. Especially, in the more competitive districts. I agree it has to do with the numbers. SA Madison lost their star RB last year, moved their starting CB to RB and didn't miss a beat. Don't know too many 3A/4A schools that could endure a lost like that and still make it to the state semi-finals. You would have to show me a team that has lost their star player, then could play at the 5A level without him!!

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:32 PM
the 1999 mart panthers could have beat quite a few 5a team easily

That wasn't the question, however. The question, or its's intent, was could they compete/defeat top ten teams. The answer is no. We cannot romanticise this point, which we tend to because we either have ties to a program or do not want to be viewed to lack respect for one. If we use Celina, for example, they are one of best programs & have produced some of the greatest teams 2A ever saw. That is not up for debate. I enjoy them, as most of us do. All that said put them on the field with Trinity, Carroll, Plano, Katy, North Shore ect... and see what happens. They will be competitive for half a game, maybe 3/4, then the size, speed & depth take over and it's a loss for the kids in orange. These are the cold, hard facts of this sport. It is not basketball and there is no Jimmy Chitwood shooting you to finals. It is no baseball where a dominant pitcher can propel a team to untold heights. This game, more than any other, is about the absolute sum of your parts. Elite, top ten, 5A teams have better parts and more of them if one wears out.

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:36 PM
But Everman goes up from 3A to 4A and all they have done is go 4 rounds deep their first year and followed that up by going 14-1 and reaching the state semifinals their second year.
I am sure as far as Burnet is concerned that had more to do with losing players such as Shipley and McGee than anything.

Yeah but that's a misleading case, at best. Everman has been on the 3A/4a enrollment boundary for decades now. They were near the biggest of the bigs in 3A and were not that small as a DII, 4A team. Add that to the fact that they were on a great run of athletes during the specific time were talking about hear and I think the feat isn't quite a full of peril as it may look. Burnet, like you said, was all about losing two of the best 3A players ever.

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:37 PM
Wos is similar to Everman in that it has been in 4A before, and has bounced down to 3A. They are two of the very largest 3A schools with some of the very best talent. Just think of someone like Newton or W-EC taking on a 5A school:eek:

If W-OS or Everman played Lufkin or North Shore how do you think it would go?

Oops. The mighty Slorch beat me to it, as usual.:D

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:39 PM
OK, 25 years ago, and that is arguably the best 3A team ever.

And even given those facts, how many times would they have beaten a top ten, 5A team? Been competitive?

grayowl60
08-23-2008, 05:40 PM
That wasn't the question, however. The question, or its's intent, was could they compete/defeat top ten teams. The answer is no. We cannot romanticise this point, which we tend to because we either have ties to a program or do not want to be viewed to lack respect for one. If we use Celina, for example, they are one of best programs & have produced some of the greatest teams 2A ever saw. That is not up for debate. I enjoy them, as most of us do. All that said put them on the field with Trinity, Carroll, Plano, Katy, North Shore ect... and see what happens. They will be competitive for half a game, maybe 3/4, then the size, speed & depth take over and it's a loss for the kids in orange. These are the cold, hard facts of this sport. It is not basketball and there is no Jimmy Chitwood shooting you to finals. It is no baseball where a dominant pitcher can propel a team to untold heights. This game, more than any other, is about the absolute sum of your parts. Elite, top ten, 5A teams have better parts and more of them if one wears out.
Agreed. And that is why they are divided into classifications so that schools dont have to play schools two or three times thier size.....oh wait. YES THEY DO!!!:confused:

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:44 PM
IMO it would be closer than you might think. We were the smallest 5A school in the state when we came within 9 minutes of knocking off Houston Yates in '85

It was tied 6-6 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th quarter with WOS leading 4-1 in penetrations in the 5A Regional Semifinals

Very true but you were still 5A. Additionally, this was during the time frame that WOS was one of our state's better programs. Y'all have plenty of skins on the wall, especially around that time frame. Now, that squad may have been playing over their head, I have no idea but, since Yates is usually in the top 3 in the alltime debate, it's fair to say they were playing great. In the end they came up short. How would Cuero or Dangerfield have done? They were heavyweights in 3A back then and would have been beaten into submission by that squad.

SLC93
08-23-2008, 05:49 PM
Agreed. And that is why they are divided into classifications so that schools dont have to play schools two or three times thier size.....oh wait. YES THEY DO!!!:confused:

Right. We're so concerned with a level playing field in this day of hugs and feeelings that we do not even think it's fair for a "small" 5A to play with a "big" 5A. Would somebody please think of the children!:D

slorch
08-23-2008, 06:02 PM
That wasn't the question, however. The question, or its's intent, was could they compete/defeat top ten teams. The answer is no. We cannot romanticise this point, which we tend to because we either have ties to a program or do not want to be viewed to lack respect for one. If we use Celina, for example, they are one of best programs & have produced some of the greatest teams 2A ever saw. That is not up for debate. I enjoy them, as most of us do. All that said put them on the field with Trinity, Carroll, Plano, Katy, North Shore ect... and see what happens. They will be competitive for half a game, maybe 3/4, then the size, speed & depth take over and it's a loss for the kids in orange. These are the cold, hard facts of this sport. It is not basketball and there is no Jimmy Chitwood shooting you to finals. It is no baseball where a dominant pitcher can propel a team to untold heights. This game, more than any other, is about the absolute sum of your parts. Elite, top ten, 5A teams have better parts and more of them if one wears out.

half of the folks on here have no idea who Jimmy Chitwood is...

SLC93
08-23-2008, 06:04 PM
half of the folks on here have no idea who Jimmy Chitwood is...

But the great minds don't miss a thing. Go Hickory! should have been the name of this thread, imo. :notworthy;):D

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 06:25 PM
Yeah but that's a misleading case, at best. Everman has been on the 3A/4a enrollment boundary for decades now. They were near the biggest of the bigs in 3A and were not that small as a DII, 4A team. Add that to the fact that they were on a great run of athletes during the specific time were talking about hear and I think the feat isn't quite a full of peril as it may look. Burnet, like you said, was all about losing two of the best 3A players ever.

Misleading as it may be, Everman had not enjoyed a run like that in 4A in quite sometime if ever. They jump back up there and boom they have hit the road running. Usually when teams do move up that means they were playing with borderline numbers for at least 1 if not both years of the realignment before they moved up into the larger classification.
Should that take away from the accomplishments of Carroll, SV and Denton Ryan before they all moved up into 5A?
What about Celina, they have moved up and transitioned quite well the two times they went to 3A.

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 06:29 PM
half of the folks on here have no idea who Jimmy Chitwood is...

That's sad too.
Probably my favorite movie growing up.
My mom went out and bought me some red converse when I was in 1st grade that I wore to school every day and always went out in the driveway to shoot baskets in. I still get goose bumps when Coach Dale has them huddled up before the final second and he was going to useJimmy as a decoy, the team went silent and he asked "what's the matter with you guys"? Jimmy simply said, "I'll make it" and Coach Dale preceeded to change the final playto have Jimmy isolated one on one with his guy. What a woderful story and movie

slorch
08-23-2008, 06:50 PM
Hey W-OS and you other hard core small school supporters, I just want to make something clear. My opinion on this thread is strictly what i think would happen if these smaller schools matched up with an elite 4A or 5A school. It is in no way an indictment of the quality of ball that the smaller schools play. I have spent my own hard earned money to take my boys to 1A PO games as far away as Wichita Falls, last season. I love the smaller schools and the way they play. i actually get a bit perturbed when some folks on here act as if 5A is the only real level of high school football worth watching. I like all of it!

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 06:59 PM
Hey W-OS and you other hard core small school supporters, I just want to make something clear. My opinion on this thread is strictly what i think would happen if these smaller schools matched up with an elite 4A or 5A school. It is in no way an indictment of the quality of ball that the smaller schools play. I have spent my own hard earned money to take my boys to 1A PO games as far away as Wichita Falls, last season. I love the smaller schools and the way they play. i actually get a bit perturbed when some folks on here act as if 5A is the only real level of high school football worth watching. I like all of it!

I never thought that for one second.
Against the truly elite about 99% of them would truly struggle from 3A on down. I have always believed that and even said so earlier, I just wanted to point to the person making the Burnet comparison that while that does happen there are other instances where teams can move up and not miss a beat too.

twcpfan1
08-23-2008, 07:14 PM
half of the folks on here have no idea who Jimmy Chitwood is...

... 'one more thing. coach stays. i stay. he goes. i go'

d-train
08-23-2008, 07:59 PM
My friend from Celina told me that they could easily be a top 10 team in 5A. Does anyone know of any other 2A or 3A schools that could actually compete with the 5A?
Your friend is smoking some bad stuff! Liberty Hill has won back to back title, including beating Celina, and they would not beat any team from the 2007 14-5A, with P-ville, Leander, Round Rock, G-town...

d-train
08-23-2008, 08:02 PM
Very true but you were still 5A. Additionally, this was during the time frame that WOS was one of our state's better programs. Y'all have plenty of skins on the wall, especially around that time frame. Now, that squad may have been playing over their head, I have no idea but, since Yates is usually in the top 3 in the alltime debate, it's fair to say they were playing great. In the end they came up short. How would Cuero or Dangerfield have done? They were heavyweights in 3A back then and would have been beaten into submission by that squad.
Saw 87 Cuero vs LaGrange, and played for 86 Reagan semis team in 5A. Cuero was bigger than us on OL/DL and every team we played save for LaMarque. They had very good talent on that team.

WOS87
08-23-2008, 08:44 PM
Your friend is smoking some bad stuff! Liberty Hill has won back to back title, including beating Celina, and they would not beat any team from the 2007 14-5A, with P-ville, Leander, Round Rock, G-town...

You really think so?

2007 Scores

Liberty Hill 33, Waco Connally 13
Waco Connally 42, Waco University 28
Waco University 35, Waco Midway 31
Waco Midway 21, Round Rock 17

West Orange-Stark 28, Giddings 19
Giddings 28, Waco Midway 14
Waco Midway 21, Round Rock 17

farmerfan
08-23-2008, 08:50 PM
... 'one more thing. coach stays. i stay. he goes. i go'

not to be picky my friend but I believe it goes like this,

I think its time for me to start playig ball

old coach says, I told you once we got rid of him

Jimmy - "One more thing, I play, Coach stays, He goes, I go" ;):D

SLC93
08-23-2008, 11:17 PM
... 'one more thing. coach stays. i stay. he goes. i go'

:D Another great mind. :D

SLC93
08-23-2008, 11:19 PM
Saw 87 Cuero vs LaGrange, and played for 86 Reagan semis team in 5A. Cuero was bigger than us on OL/DL and every team we played save for LaMarque. They had very good talent on that team.

The Gobblers were fierce for a good stretch. Two words, Robert Strait. That cat was a yardage producing machine.

SLC93
08-23-2008, 11:19 PM
not to be picky my friend but I believe it goes like this,

I think its time for me to start playig ball

old coach says, I told you once we got rid of him

Jimmy - "One more thing, I play, Coach stays, He goes, I go" ;):D

Welcome to the club!:D

SLC93
08-23-2008, 11:26 PM
Misleading as it may be, Everman had not enjoyed a run like that in 4A in quite sometime if ever. They jump back up there and boom they have hit the road running. Usually when teams do move up that means they were playing with borderline numbers for at least 1 if not both years of the realignment before they moved up into the larger classification.
Should that take away from the accomplishments of Carroll, SV and Denton Ryan before they all moved up into 5A?
What about Celina, they have moved up and transitioned quite well the two times they went to 3A.

With Everman, I'm only saying that they had been about that size for awhile. It just so happens that this last time they were moved up they were running though a cycle that had them with their best group of athletes ever. Additionally, those athletes had tasted success in 3A so they had no fear when they were moved up. With Celina the success has been there for a long time know. They've been a larger 2A school and on the 3A border for a little bit. Moving back and forth has little impact on their program at all. Why? The numbers are almost inconsequential in both cases. We're not talking about thousands of students. We not even likely to be talking about a hundred students. The difference is just too small. I don't think this arguement diminishes what Carroll or SV or DR did, in any way. Sometimes a one class jump is huge. Sometimes its not as big as it may appear. Really doesn't matter,though. We're talking about jumping two or three classes. That just won't work.

farmerfan
08-24-2008, 12:29 AM
With Everman, I'm only saying that they had been about that size for awhile. It just so happens that this last time they were moved up they were running though a cycle that had them with their best group of athletes ever. Additionally, those athletes had tasted success in 3A so they had no fear when they were moved up. With Celina the success has been there for a long time know. They've been a larger 2A school and on the 3A border for a little bit. Moving back and forth has little impact on their program at all. Why? The numbers are almost inconsequential in both cases. We're not talking about thousands of students. We not even likely to be talking about a hundred students. The difference is just too small. I don't think this arguement diminishes what Carroll or SV or DR did, in any way. Sometimes a one class jump is huge. Sometimes its not as big as it may appear. Really doesn't matter,though. We're talking about jumping two or three classes. That just won't work.

Not to be picky but when the Celina streak started they were a mid size 2A school and one of the smallest in 3A when they moved up.
Going on what I know though is I agree with you or everyone else about jumping up 2-3 classes. Where I played ball we could line up and match up against the Celinas of the world, in fact in 97 we beat Celina and played Keller Fossil Ridge later in the season, they were in their 2nd year ever as a varsity and had yet to win a game, we were undefeated going into that game and they toous to 2 OT's before we finally beat them. They were one of the worst 4A schools at the time I think the only team worse than them was Birdville. I believed Celina bowed out of the playoffs that year to Italy in the area round in a close game and Italy got beat in the regionals by Stanton. To sum it up it would have been very difficult for them to match up with any midrange 4A let alone a mid range 5A.
Now there are exceptions and I still stand by my thoughts of the 92 Carroll team that I saw being able to compete against some ofthe teams in 5A if not beat a huge junk of them.
I would assume the same would be said of 83 Daingerfield.

SLC93
08-24-2008, 10:25 AM
Not to be picky but when the Celina streak started they were a mid size 2A school and one of the smallest in 3A when they moved up.
Going on what I know though is I agree with you or everyone else about jumping up 2-3 classes. Where I played ball we could line up and match up against the Celinas of the world, in fact in 97 we beat Celina and played Keller Fossil Ridge later in the season, they were in their 2nd year ever as a varsity and had yet to win a game, we were undefeated going into that game and they toous to 2 OT's before we finally beat them. They were one of the worst 4A schools at the time I think the only team worse than them was Birdville. I believed Celina bowed out of the playoffs that year to Italy in the area round in a close game and Italy got beat in the regionals by Stanton. To sum it up it would have been very difficult for them to match up with any midrange 4A let alone a mid range 5A.
Now there are exceptions and I still stand by my thoughts of the 92 Carroll team that I saw being able to compete against some ofthe teams in 5A if not beat a huge junk of them.I would assume the same would be said of 83 Daingerfield.

This will hiss of some Mustang fans but, during that time period, Grapevine refused to schedule us. Ledbetter tried to get them on our nondistrict slate from 90-93 & we were politely declined.:D

d-train
08-24-2008, 10:28 AM
You really think so?

2007 Scores

Liberty Hill 33, Waco Connally 13
Waco Connally 42, Waco University 28
Waco University 35, Waco Midway 31
Waco Midway 21, Round Rock 17

West Orange-Stark 28, Giddings 19
Giddings 28, Waco Midway 14
Waco Midway 21, Round Rock 17
Round Rock doesn't go undefeated, yet they make the playoffs and go deep. They are not loaded on talent or size. Most folks say they have the best coach up there. They play conservative ball, so it is easier for them to get taken. Waco plays pass happy Stoney Point, but Point plays average defense. Doug Allman, LH FB last two years, could not start at RB for RR McNeil, but was basically everything at LH.

farmerfan
08-24-2008, 01:42 PM
This will hiss of some Mustang fans but, during that time period, Grapevine refused to schedule us. Ledbetter tried to get them on our nondistrict slate from 90-93 & we were politely declined.:D

I don't blame them. I was in 5th grade in 92 and Grapevine was our only regular season loss that year beating us 28-21 I believe. The followingv year we smoked them 42-8.
That said, I have no dobt in my mind that you all would ahve beat Grapevine had you played them in 92 :eek: