Chinese gymnasts' age investigation

[elkfbfan]

Does anyone else believe the IOC 12 hour long " investigation" was bogus? They looked at the same documents the Chinese gave them and quickly declared everything in order. An investigation that lasts 12 hours? Come on- why are they trying to sweep this under the rug? Do they not care about their own credibility? Or are they afraid they will be sent to a Chinese "reeducation" camp if they were to find anything amiss in Bejing?
I, for one, find it easy to tell when the Chinese sports officials' are lying- their lips are moving!:D

[Favpack]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=246060.html?_source=rss&cid=

"One double bronze medalist from China in 2000 admitted she was 14 when competing in Sydney". The 16 year old rule change occurred in 1997, and age cheating has been going on in Asia since 1982.

China is crying racism and saying the gymnasts parents are upset by this investigation. Well, then it must be stopped.

[twcpfan1]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=246060.html?_source=rss&cid=

"One double bronze medalist from China in 2000 admitted she was 14 when competing in Sydney". The 16 year old rule change occurred in 1997, and age cheating has been going on in Asia since 1982.

China is crying racism and saying the gymnasts parents are upset by this investigation. Well, then it must be stopped.

It will be all better when Panther football starts :D

[Firebird]

The investigation is finished. They concluded there's not enough evidence to continue.

This really is not the fault of the IOC or FIG. These investigative bodies are toothless without the cooperation of the government in question, especially when it comes to gymnastics. The PRC has of course provided authentic documents to verify the ages and really, what do we expect the governing bodies to do? There's no way they can prove their case.

[pied]

We know that China has no knowledge of counterfeiting at all.

[Firebird]

We know that China has no knowledge of counterfeiting at all.

Everyone knows that the Chinese counterfeit documents and everyone can tell that those girls are not really 16. But the only way you can make a case in the court of arbitration for sport is to come up with official government documents stating that she is not of age, and you cannot get those without the government cooperating with you and helping in the investigation. You will not get that, the Chinese will claim that they have provided all documents they have and that everything is in order.

There is no "next step" to take. You have no proof of anything, just a lot of smoking guns. You can't strip an athletes medal on the grounds that their government has experience at counterfeiting.

The guy on the Today show this morning summed it up well. The only time that investigations have worked is when the government of the country in question is interested in pursuing a real investigation. The Italian doping scandal, BALCO, etc....in those cases the USG/Italian government also wanted to make sure the cheaters got caught. (There's another difference in the two sports systems, but don't tell twcpfan;)

The PRC is the one doing the cheating and they are also the only people able to prove anything. So it is a lost cause.

[pied]

The PRC is the one doing the cheating and they are also the only people able to prove anything. So it is a lost cause.

Yup.

In addition, would you really want the medal?

Kind of like the guys in the 200M. They ask him after he finishes 4th or 5th but got bumped and he's like, "well I lost".

What do you say, "I got beat by a 12 year old"?

[RedRage00]

Yup.

In addition, would you really want the medal?

Kind of like the guys in the 200M. They ask him after he finishes 4th or 5th but got bumped and he's like, "well I lost".

What do you say, "I got beat by a 12 year old"?

The Judson fans claim 1988 so I'm guessing some may want the medal. :D

[Firebird]

Yup.

In addition, would you really want the medal?

Kind of like the guys in the 200M. They ask him after he finishes 4th or 5th but got bumped and he's like, "well I lost".

What do you say, "I got beat by a 12 year old"?

I have a different perspective on this. One of my regional championship relay gold medals came on a "technicality." (I know, not quite Olympic gold;))

UIL rules state that each swimmer may swim two relay races and two individual races per meet. My team came in second in the finals by a tenth. It was the last race of the day.

When the meet officals were entering the swimmers' names into the computer for the final result, the computer disqualified the first place finisher. One of their swimmers (the best on their team) had already been entered on the final results sheet for two relays earlier in the day. You can't pick and choose which result you want to drop, the team automatically got disqualified for the last race.

Turns out, the coach had knowingly put his best athlete in too many races but had told his assistant to carry the offical rosters to the meet official. The assistant, not being as savvy (and also being honest) noticed that the roster given him by the head coach was wrong and corrected it to reflect the presence of the ineligble swimmer when he turned it in to meet officials.

The head coach threw a fit after his team's disqualification and also let our coach know that the only honest thing for us to do would be to refuse our medals. You better believe we took the regional championship medals. The rules are in place and you have to follow them. We could have done better at the regional meet as a team if we had put our best swimmers in every event and tried to lie about doing it, but we didn't. I don't feel a whiff of remorse, except for the kids on the other team who got stuck with a stupid and dishonest coach. Had they followed the rules, they would not have beaten us that day, but they would have had an honest silver or bronze medal to show for it.

[twcpfan1]

I have a different perspective on this. One of my regional championship relay gold medals came on a "technicality." (I know, not quite Olympic gold;))

UIL rules state that each swimmer may swim two relay races and two individual races per meet. My team came in second in the finals by a tenth. It was the last race of the day.

When the meet officals were entering the swimmers' names into the computer for the final result, the computer disqualified the first place finisher. One of their swimmers (the best on their team) had already been entered on the final results sheet for two relays earlier in the day. You can't pick and choose which result you want to drop, the team automatically got disqualified for the last race.

Turns out, the coach had knowingly put his best athlete in too many races but had told his assistant to carry the offical rosters to the meet official. The assistant, not being as savvy (and also being honest) noticed that the roster given him by the head coach was wrong and corrected it to reflect the presence of the ineligble swimmer when he turned it in to meet officials.

The head coach threw a fit after his team's disqualification and also let our coach know that the only honest thing for us to do would be to refuse our medals. You better believe we took the regional championship medals. The rules are in place and you have to follow them. We could have done better at the regional meet as a team if we had put our best swimmers in every event and tried to lie about doing it, but we didn't. I don't feel a whiff of remorse, except for the kids on the other team who got stuck with a stupid and dishonest coach. Had they followed the rules, they would not have beaten us that day, but they would have had an honest silver or bronze medal to show for it.

In your case, it really would have made a difference if the other team had followed the rules. So you were right in accepting the medals and should feel no remorse.

In the Gymnastics case however, I seriously doubt if Miss Liukin, Johnson, Sacramone and co would have been too happy accepting the team gold even if it was proven that the Chinese team cheated, given their sub par performances on that day.

[pied]

Rules are rules, and I would accept the medal don't get me wrong, but the circumstaces I would relate them might be different.

In the 200M, the guy stepped on the line. The reason the rule is there is that it gives you a real competitive advantage to "cheat" by running a shorter distance. Now the fact the two guys stepped on the line, likely had zero effect on the final result, but I think it's pretty clear. Still the American knew he was beat and had the appropriate response at the time. He is also updating his resume to include Olympic Silver medalist, as he should.

Certainly the age thing is a tad bit different. You can argue that younger kids can be more flexible, but they are likely to have less stregth/endurance/mental capacity to handle the pressure than an older competitor.

Also, Liukin/co. beat them in some events and not others. When these things happen, no one wins. Everyone knows that China are a bunch of lying cheats. Several athletes, although not the best in the world, were cheated out of medals they should have won, and the little Chinese girls who have just been exploited the majority of their lives continue to be so.

[Firebird]

Rules are rules, and I would accept the medal don't get me wrong, but the circumstaces I would relate them might be different.

In the 200M, the guy stepped on the line. The reason the rule is there is that it gives you a real competitive advantage to "cheat" by running a shorter distance. Now the fact the two guys stepped on the line, likely had zero effect on the final result, but I think it's pretty clear. Still the American knew he was beat and had the appropriate response at the time. He is also updating his resume to include Olympic Silver medalist, as he should.

Certainly the age thing is a tad bit different. You can argue that younger kids can be more flexible, but they are likely to have less stregth/endurance/mental capacity to handle the pressure than an older competitor.

Also, Liukin/co. beat them in some events and not others. When these things happen, no one wins. Everyone knows that China are a bunch of lying cheats. Several athletes, although not the best in the world, were cheated out of medals they should have won, and the little Chinese girls who have just been exploited the majority of their lives continue to be so.

I see what you are saying.....there are rules like that in swimming, too, (in some strokes you must touch the wall with two hands at each turn, for instance). I have no problem saying that the four guys that got put up against us beat us in that race, but I also don't feel bad about taking the medal.

The coach made an interesting appeal.....he argued that he should be allowed to drop one of the relays, of his choosing, after the day was done (they didn't win all of them, but did well). Of course it was denied. You can also bet that if no one had caught him, he wouldn't have volunteered to drop any of them.


By the way,for gymnastics, virtually every person I have heard talk about it argues that in terms of the "head" younger gymnasts have older ones beat.

[pied]

By the way,for gymnastics, virtually every person I have heard talk about it argues that in terms of the "head" younger gymnasts have older ones beat.

They had one of the Dominnque's on last week(Dawes or Moceanu) and were asking her about the controversy. She said, "well I was 14 at the time, so I don't know why it's that big of a deal".

oops

One of severl miscalculations or poor decisions by NBC in my opinion.

[twcpfan1]

They had one of the Dominnque's on last week(Dawes or Moceanu) and were asking her about the controversy. She said, "well I was 14 at the time, so I don't know why it's that big of a deal".

oops

One of severl miscalculations or poor decisions by NBC in my opinion.

I don't think the rule was brought in until 1997. Is that correct? The Dominiques competed in 1996.

Not sure if it was done by design, but the age limit clearly benefits the USA because our gymnasts seem to peak at 16-19. Moceaneau, who was 14, did not work out too well for us.

[BlitzKrieg]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=246060.html?_source=rss&cid=
China is crying racism and saying the gymnasts parents are upset by this investigation. Well, then it must be stopped.

or maybe its the fact that the Chinese "government" took them away from their family at the age of 3...we may never really know, :rolleyes:

[tayb]

I hope no one actually thought anything would come of this...

The IOC has its head two feet up the *** of China. Even if the Chinese government admitted behind closed doors that it falsified passports I would still doubt that the IOC brass have the marbles to actually do anything.

[The King]

The problem is since the documents are obviously falsified by the government, they are also legit.

In this case everyone loses.

I'm sure those little girls were told earlier in life what age the government wanted them to be and by now they beleive.

It is oddly simular to the mormon group in Eldorado

[hunterbunter]

The investigation is finished. They concluded there's not enough evidence to continue.

This really is not the fault of the IOC or FIG. These investigative bodies are toothless without the cooperation of the government in question, especially when it comes to gymnastics. The PRC has of course provided authentic documents to verify the ages and really, what do we expect the governing bodies to do? There's no way they can prove their case.

shoooot i'll tell you how they can prove their case. take 'em to the nearest mcdonalds and let them order. see if they don't order a happy meal!

[RedRage00]

shoooot i'll tell you how they can prove their case. take 'em to the nearest mcdonalds and let them order. see if they don't order a happy meal!

That won't work. Rocketgirl still orders that and she's pushing 30+ in age. :eek::D

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

shoooot i'll tell you how they can prove their case. take 'em to the nearest mcdonalds and let them order. see if they don't order a happy meal!

:notworthy

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

That won't work. Rocketgirl still orders that and she's pushing 30+ in age. :eek::D

:laugh

I believe she's already atleast 33!

[dragons08]

Well, there is one way to do a quick age check on the guys...the pants test.

granted, they may claim its the "typical asian" stereotype ;)

[pied]

I don't think the rule was brought in until 1997. Is that correct? The Dominiques competed in 1996.

Not sure if it was done by design, but the age limit clearly benefits the USA because our gymnasts seem to peak at 16-19. Moceaneau, who was 14, did not work out too well for us.

Sounds right. They were looking for her to say it was wrong for them to compete if they were too young and it did not work out so well.

[twcpfan1]

Sounds right. They were looking for her to say it was wrong for them to compete if they were too young and it did not work out so well.

They tried the same thing on Carly Patterson in 2004. They tried hard to goad her into making a negative comment about Russia's Svetlana Khorkina. Carly's response was, 'she was a really cool person and a great gymnast' (words to that effect anyway) Good for her. Way to represent Texas. NBC just gave up.

[drgnbkr]

The investigation continues.....Will not be decided for some time..as I said before, you would think they would have noticed the difference before the competition and checked then...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080823/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_gym_underage_chinese_26;_ylt=AmD_Oez8Odh6CrQ9C 4foPHvfjOQA

[LoneRocket]

They tried the same thing on Carly Patterson in 2004. They tried hard to goad her into making a negative comment about Russia's Svetlana Khorkina. Carly's response was, 'she was a really cool person and a great gymnast' (words to that effect anyway) Good for her. Way to represent Texas. NBC just gave up.

If you openly complain the IOC will ban you.

[twcpfan1]

If you openly complain the IOC will ban you.

She had nothing to complain about. She won. NBC was trying to stir up some controversy over comments that Khorkina supposedly made that the judging was heavily biased towards the American. She doesn't speak English very well and I think something got lost in the translation. But NBC figured they'd jump on the opportunity anyway. The kid from Allen was not sucked in.

[Firebird]

She had nothing to complain about. She won. NBC was trying to stir up some controversy over comments that Khorkina supposedly made that the judging was heavily biased towards the American. She doesn't speak English very well and I think something got lost in the translation. But NBC figured they'd jump on the opportunity anyway. The kid from Allen was not sucked in.

World class athletes are like that........they know how to win and lose because they've done plenty of both in their lifetimes.

I sure am sad these games are done. I can't recall the last time I have enjoyed an Olympics quite as much. Plenty of great performaces to keep my interest level up.

[twcpfan1]

World class athletes are like that........they know how to win and lose because they've done plenty of both in their lifetimes.

I sure am sad these games are done. I can't recall the last time I have enjoyed an Olympics quite as much. Plenty of great performaces to keep my interest level up.

The sadness over the end of an Olympic games sometimes reaches unhealthy levels. In 2000, a lot of Sydney residents needed professional help to get over the depression. I'm going to try and make it to Vancouver in 2010. It's close enough. I'd like to experience it at least once.

Then I can argue with the nice folks here over the age restrictions in figure skating. :D

[Firebird]

The sadness over the end of an Olympic games sometimes reaches unhealthy levels. In 2000, a lot of Sydney residents needed professional help to get over the depression. I'm going to try and make it to Vancouver in 2010. It's close enough. I'd like to experience it at least once.

Then I can argue with the nice folks here over the age restrictions in figure skating. :D

Atlanta was INCREDIBLE. And it was not even considered a "good" Olympics. Still, I saw Michael Johnson win gold and that is still probably my favorite sports memory of all time, not counting when I was competing.

[RedRage00]

He (the gymnast) may have been underage, but its not 100% certain just by looking at her.

Jrock210 looks like he's 12, but he's really 17. :laugh

[drgnbkr]

The sadness over the end of an Olympic games sometimes reaches unhealthy levels. In 2000, a lot of Sydney residents needed professional help to get over the depression. I'm going to try and make it to Vancouver in 2010. It's close enough. I'd like to experience it at least once.

Then I can argue with the nice folks here over the age restrictions in figure skating. :D

Vancouver is a world class, beautiful place...It will be a great place to stage the olympics, although Whistler is a bit of a drive to make every day.

[twcpfan1]

Vancouver is a world class, beautiful place...It will be a great place to stage the olympics, although Whistler is a bit of a drive to make every day.

I agree. Lived there for 3 months and skied Whistler before. The figure skating, hockey, snowboarding and skating events will be in metro Vancouver though. But of course, The Olympic Village and the skiing events will be in Whistler. Not sure where the bobsled track will be because that would be pretty cool to watch.