PDA

View Full Version : Story from Cincy Newspaper on Colerain Coaches Visit and the National Games



supercentex
05-22-2005, 10:57 AM
Let's keep our preps in perspective

By Paul Daugherty
Enquirer staff writer

ADVERTISEMENT

Kerry Coombs flew to Texas last week, to get a glimpse of insanity Lone Star-style. We like to think high school football is important here. Compared to Texas high school football, we're embryos.

"Like being in a foreign country," the Colerain coach reported. You could hear the awe in his voice. "Like being a kid in a candy store, for a football coach."

Coombs was in Tyler, Texas, to attend a press conference pumping up a September football game between Colerain and Tyler's Robert E. Lee High School. He also checked out the indoor practice facility at Southlake High in suburban Dallas, home of the champion of USA Today's national high school poll.

National champion? Of high school football?

"The Cowboys use (Southlake's) facility." Coombs said. That would be the Jerry Jones Cowboys. Coombs also said Tyler Lee High "has a 10-year naming rights contract on their stadium," a deal Coombs said pays the school close to $2 million.

Yeah, well.

Everyone involved with the Colerain-Lee game thinks it's wonderful. It will be held in Columbus. It almost certainly will be on television, possibly ESPN2. It will be big money for someone, at least bigger than the average split-the-pot take on a Friday night. "I wish last year's (Colerain state championship) team could have done it," Coombs said.

The Enquirer's editorial board was equally gushy: "The most obvious (benefit) is ESPN's reach," the editors opined. "From promoting the game ... to the actual revenue generated from millions of viewers, this is a can't-lose situation for Ohio and Colerain."

Aside from the obvious question - what's the market for Colerain versus Lee outside Colerain and Tyler, and would it really be "millions" of viewers? - there's this:

Aren't we advocating the same culture in high schools we've been damning in Division I colleges? How long before the pressure to win, make money and be on TV starts getting high school coaches fired? How long before we hear about cheating, grade-fixing and various other misdeeds? And where does it stop?

"Starting at quarterback in the K-through-2 Super Bowl, at 3 feet 2 inches and 48 pounds ..."

"There's something unholy about it" was how Cincinnati Public Schools athletic director Dave Dierker put it.

Do we really want high school kids flying around the country, playing made-for-TV football games? Let's see: travel time,

missed classes, an emphasis on making money for the athletic department. For the players, a culture separate from the student body as a whole. Sound familiar?

It's great for kids to get a taste of the big time. And it would be interesting to see how a local high school team would do against a team from big, bad Texas. But is this really where we want high school sports to go?

Once you play on national TV, what's the thrill in a Friday night game at Sycamore?

Strictly from a competitive standpoint, what does it mean if a high school team from Ohio beats a high school team from Texas? How do you measure that? If Moeller beats Elder, we know what we've got. If Colerain beats Cleveland St. Ignatius, we're impressed. But Tyler, Texas?

"We're growing these programs bigger than they ought to be for these kids at this time in their lives," Dierker said. "High school athletics are supposed to be an arm of the school." Not the whole body.

Coombs argued the pressure on coaches already exists, but conceded: "The money aspect is a concern. If we become beholden to outside influences, it would be a mistake. We still need to be in the business of educating."

Then he raised the counterpoint: "How could I look a kid in the eye and tell him we turned this down?"

The genie is out of the bottle. Some of us think it's a bad idea.

Texasfrog
05-22-2005, 03:18 PM
I also agree with some aspects of the reporters post. I dont really see anything wrong with interstate games as long as they dont get stupid. We really dont need teams travelling all over the nation every year to play each other.

But, having a few games each year in August and early September dont bother me much.

I just dont want to hear stupid ideas about a national playoff or anything like that.

Shoot2thrill
05-22-2005, 04:10 PM
Let's keep our preps in perspective


Aren't we advocating the same culture in high schools we've been damning in Division I colleges? How long before the pressure to win, make money and be on TV starts getting high school coaches fired? How long before we hear about cheating, grade-fixing and various other misdeeds? And where does it stop?

As much as it hurts to admit it, I gotta agree whole-heartedly with this guy. We will lose sight of what makes high school football so special if we don't watch out.. :rolleyes:

dragonsdaddy
05-23-2005, 08:15 AM
the one nationally televised game i've witnessed was a circus. luckily it didn't involve lots of travel or otherwise distractions from school. these games are not in the best interests of high school football. the goal of every team in texas should be playing that one game in mid december for the big cup, preparation for that feat is best served playing good teams here locally, not flying off to ohio on a school day to get in the middle of the freak show that is espn. i'll watch but i'm glad the dragons aren't involved.

eagleike
05-23-2005, 04:57 PM
"If Moeller beats Elder, we know what we've got. If Colerain beats Cleveland St. Ignatius, we're impressed. But Tyler, Texas?"

I believe the Ohio folks will know all they want to know about little ole Tyler, Texas when this game is over.

By the way I agree with all the other posters. This is high school athletics not the NFL or DI college. There is enough pressure on the kids as it is. Just ask the kids from SLC's 2004 team. There was tremendous pressure from day one. #1 in the nation? Texas playoffs? come people let the kids just have some fun.

Texasfrog
05-23-2005, 06:36 PM
I like the Texas Kickoff Classic and games like that. Early season games on Labor Day weekend that bring in teams from around Texas.

I also dont mind a few out-of-state games each year. I just dont want to see it get stupid and out of hand where we have like 30 Texas 5A teams going out of State every year to California, florida , Ohio and ect to play.

If non-Texas football teams want to truley experience Texas football for what it is. They should load the planes, buses and trains and come to Texas and play on a Texas Friday night. In Texas its not just the football team, its the cheerleaders, bands, pep-squads, boosters, fans , town and ect. That's truley TEXAS football on a Friday night.

PS. I've already read from a few "Geeks" that they wished we had a National playoffs. Please get a life. To me being Texas State Champ means you're the best.

concha
05-23-2005, 09:32 PM
I like the Texas Kickoff Classic and games like that. Early season games on Labor Day weekend that bring in teams from around Texas.

I also dont mind a few out-of-state games each year. I just dont want to see it get stupid and out of hand where we have like 30 Texas 5A teams going out of State every year to California, florida , Ohio and ect to play.

If non-Texas football teams want to truley experience Texas football for what it is. They should load the planes, buses and trains and come to Texas and play on a Texas Friday night. In Texas its not just the football team, its the cheerleaders, bands, pep-squads, boosters, fans , town and ect. That's truley TEXAS football on a Friday night.

PS. I've already read from a few "Geeks" that they wished we had a National playoffs. Please get a life. To me being Texas State Champ means you're the best.

Ohio teams don't need to to spend the money and effort to travel to Texas. That's like a Hawaiian traveling to Florida in search of the perfect wave. The pollsters have had it right for a long time now. Ohio is king. Find a state with more than Ohio. If there is one, it ain't Texas.

National High School Champs (http://community-2.webtv.net/SEKSPORTS/HIGHSCHOOLCOMM/page8.html)

drgnbkr
05-23-2005, 09:50 PM
Bring it Ohio Guy....let's see what ya got...I'm thinkin...not much...but we'll all see...won't we? ;) National Champs at what?

Shoot2thrill
05-23-2005, 10:24 PM
Bring it Ohio Guy....let's see what ya got...I'm thinkin...not much...but we'll all see...won't we? ;) National Champs at what?

I heard that their table tennis teams are unrivaled.... :rolleyes:

concha
05-23-2005, 11:20 PM
I heard that their table tennis teams are unrivaled.... :rolleyes:

Pure comic genius.

farmerfan
05-23-2005, 11:29 PM
While I do think think these games are a bit of a circus act, the thing that has to be taken into consideration is that, teams from West Texas have traveled great distance in non-distract play to interact in games. Permian has traveld to Marshall, Carrollton, and Mesquite by bus trip, with the Marshall trip being by plane. I guess I am in the minority, but we all have put so much stock into the HS game that it has become a national phenomenon, I think a game beteween Colerain and Lee is great, I also think a lot of us do underestimante what Ohio football could bring, remember it was not that long ago that Midland Lee agreed to travel 13+ hours to West Monroe to engage in a game, whats the difference between that and what is going on now?

NewSherriffInTown
05-23-2005, 11:32 PM
Concha...

to win national titles, you have to be undefeated.

Everyone is talking about this Colerain-Tyler Lee matchup of defending state champs, well...


Colerain was this great dominant team that nobody in Ohio could beat in 1000 years or something, and Tyler Lee lost 3 games.

Let's add SLC, okay they pulled off the undefeated season. Not without 3 games that were extremely close on the way...


Don't you see??

national champs come from ohio because they play nobody. Those Ohio programs are never great at the same time. Look at Texas this year, they think there are 8 teams good enough to win the state title.

Ohio can't say that.

Stick to playing games with Pennsylvania. You guys are two very good football states, right there in the second tier with Louisiana below Texas, California, and Florida.

concha
05-24-2005, 07:57 AM
Concha...

national champs come from ohio because they play nobody. Those Ohio programs are never great at the same time. Look at Texas this year, they think there are 8 teams good enough to win the state title.

Ohio can't say that.

Stick to playing games with Pennsylvania. You guys are two very good football states, right there in the second tier with Louisiana below Texas, California, and Florida.

O ignorant one:

Ohio D1 was called the toughest classification in the nation by The Sporting News. It is generally considered either THE toughest classification in the country or amongst the top three (with Texas 5A and Cali Southern Section).

St. Ignatius, Moeller, McKinley, Elder, St. Xavier, Warren Harding, Colerain, St. Edward, Glenville, Massillon.... they all go for the same title. The big schools in Texas are spread across 4A and 5A and then those are divided up also.

So spare me the "Ohio teams play no one" schpiel. Heck, just in 2001 there were 3 teams in Cincy that the national polls (several of which are run by national recruiting organizations, BTW) had in the Top 25 at the same time. And I will bet you that there is more regular season play amongst Ohio's elite programs than in Texas.

Check the pre-season polls when they come in over the summer. Forget USA Today. Stick to something like Prepnation which is actually run by a recruiting pro who takes the time to look at the teams and players. Ohio will have 2-3 Top 25s at least. And Ohio is just half the size of Texas, 1/3 smaller than Florida and 1/3 the size of California.

2nd tier? That's hilarious.

BTW: There are several teams with a reasonable shot at the Ohio D1 title. Three pre-season favorites (Colerain, Ignatius and Glenville) and others like Moeller, Warren Harding and St. Xavier also.

dragonsdaddy
05-24-2005, 01:11 PM
like concha said, skip the polls that don't agree with his megalomaniacal ideas. in fact go a step further and skip all national high school polls. they are miles behind the college ranking systems which aren't close to infallible. making an argument for or against anything based on an almost totally worthless poll is idiotic at best and duplicitous at worst. concha will believe what he wants to believe, and we won't be responsible for his psychiatric bills come september because he can rationalize with the best of them. this game won't settle anything btw, because we know what we know and so does the ohio clan. neither may be able to handle the truth if it doesn't fit our belief systems.

Redclad
05-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Recruiters are much more qualified to determine whether a team is good or bad. They are much smarter than coaches and it's really a waste of time to even play the games when a recruiter could determine the just outcome through his infinite insight and wisdom. It is also quite wise to discount publications such as USA Today if they don't support your contention. I have seen the last three State Championships won by Katy. All should be forfieted due to the fact that they did not have enough players go D1.

It's funny how someone brought up how much Ohio State recruits nationally with only one major school to recruit the greatest wealth of HS talent. Texas, as pointed out has four Big 12 schools. Now you can throw in Cincinnatti if you want, throw in Miami O as well. Then let's add TCU, UTEP Houston, Rice, SMU, and Nort Texas. Don't even go to Div 2 because it's even more one sided. All of these schools recruit more from Texas than does OSU from Ohio. Just like USA Today, if the facts of that arguement don't fit, disregard them. Your arguement is kind of like a marshmallow, soft and gooey.

concha
05-24-2005, 01:21 PM
like concha said, skip the polls that don't agree with his megalomaniacal ideas. in fact go a step further and skip all national high school polls. they are miles behind the college ranking systems which aren't close to infallible. making an argument for or against anything based on an almost totally worthless poll is idiotic at best and duplicitous at worst. concha will believe what he wants to believe, and we won't be responsible for his psychiatric bills come september because he can rationalize with the best of them. this game won't settle anything btw, because we know what we know and so does the ohio clan. neither may be able to handle the truth if it doesn't fit our belief systems.

Believing Colerain to have been better than SLC is megalomaniacal? Wow.

BTW, I chat with Jamie DeMoney frequently. He is a recruiting pro and puts together the National Prep poll for Prepnation. Do you know what his basic reason for having SLC at #1 was? They got there first and didn't screw up. He'll readily acknowledge that Colerain could have been justified as #1.

Regardless, polls are fun and add some spice to these boards. Look for three Ohio teams in the pre-season national Top 25 in these worthless polls.

Take care.

NewSherriffInTown
05-24-2005, 01:23 PM
And let's not even get into the fact that 90% of the "powers" in Texas are private schools which means they are ohio all star teams.



It's not even worth debating with you though...


As for the polls...DEFINITELY not talking about USAToday...they are the worst of the bunch.

prepnation's basketball poll is one of the worst, so I can't imagine how their football poll where nobody plays inter-state can be.

concha
05-24-2005, 01:33 PM
And let's not even get into the fact that 90% of the "powers" in Texas are private schools which means they are ohio all star teams.

It's not even worth debating with you though...

As for the polls...DEFINITELY not talking about USAToday...they are the worst of the bunch.

prepnation's basketball poll is one of the worst, so I can't imagine how their football poll where nobody plays inter-state can be.

You obviously have no clue about Ohio football if you are accusing the Catholic powers in Ohio football of being all-star teams. Well-rounded? Yes. Well-coached? Yes. Disciplined? Yes. etc. etc. But to call them all-star teams is ludicrous. Cincy Elder won 2 titles prior to Colerain's win. They did it all with kids from their local parish feeder schools. I think the only African-American kid they had was Bradley Glathaar. His grandfather played for Elder back in the 50s. Not to mention that the Big Catholics are generally located near other large Catholic schools. If you think these are football factories like ECA, then you are nuts.

CoppellCowboy57
05-24-2005, 01:54 PM
Much rather have slc representing TX in the one...honestly...no offense to them Lee Fans out there, but still

raidercheerdad
05-24-2005, 03:07 PM
While I do think think these games are a bit of a circus act, the thing that has to be taken into consideration is that, teams from West Texas have traveled great distance in non-distract play to interact in games. Permian has traveld to Marshall, Carrollton, and Mesquite by bus trip, with the Marshall trip being by plane. I guess I am in the minority, but we all have put so much stock into the HS game that it has become a national phenomenon, I think a game beteween Colerain and Lee is great, I also think a lot of us do underestimante what Ohio football could bring, remember it was not that long ago that Midland Lee agreed to travel 13+ hours to West Monroe to engage in a game, whats the difference between that and what is going on now?I'm from Sonora, TX and we played Kermit in our District! That's a 4 hour drive for a district game which meant spending the night for a district track meet! The flight to Ohio is short by comparison.

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 03:16 PM
You obviously have no clue about Ohio football if you are accusing the Catholic powers in Ohio football of being all-star teams. Well-rounded? Yes. Well-coached? Yes. Disciplined? Yes. etc. etc. But to call them all-star teams is ludicrous. Cincy Elder won 2 titles prior to Colerain's win. They did it all with kids from their local parish feeder schools. I think the only African-American kid they had was Bradley Glathaar. His grandfather played for Elder back in the 50s. Not to mention that the Big Catholics are generally located near other large Catholic schools. If you think these are football factories like ECA, then you are nuts.

Wow there, who cares if the player was African American or not?

Also, do you not realize between the difference of public and private teams? Public teams must play with the players in their district, while private can have kids from all over play for them.

concha
05-24-2005, 03:35 PM
Wow there, who cares if the player was African American or not?

Also, do you not realize between the difference of public and private teams? Public teams must play with the players in their district, while private can have kids from all over play for them.

Well, college and pro teams are disproportionately African-American, aren't they? I believe a list of top recruits from just about anywhere would be the same. So to call an overwhelmingly white team or teams "all-stars" begins to fly in the face of reason.

As regards private vs. public and districts, public school supporters always tend to overlook things like:

Tuition. This limits the talent pool even with financial aid. Publics do not face such a limitation.

Religion. All of Ohio's top private school football programs are Catholic. Not everyone will send their kid to a Catholic school (even if they can afford it). Yet another limiting factor to the talent pool. Publics do not face such a limitation.

Entrance exams. There are competitive academic exams for many of these schools. Yet another limiter.

Competition. Public school supporters seem to think that a private school just snaps its fingers and star players from all over flock to the program. In Ohio, the vast majority of players on the Big Catholics are, in fact, Catholics (WOW!). And there tends to be more than one private/Catholic school to choose from (in addition to the free, local public school)!

Also, I may not be up-to-date on this, but I believe that only two of the Big Catholics currently have unlimited drawing areas (Ignatius and St. X, which are Jesuit schools unaffiliated with the archdiocese).

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 03:46 PM
Well, college and pro teams are disproportionately African-American, aren't they? I believe a list of top recruits from just about anywhere would be the same. So to call an overwhelmingly white team or teams "all-stars" begins to fly in the face of reason.

As regards private vs. public and districts, public school supporters always tend to overlook things like:

Tuition. This limits the talent pool even with financial aid. Publics do not face such a limitation.

Religion. All of Ohio's top private school football programs are Catholic. Not everyone will send their kid to a Catholic school (even if they can afford it). Yet another limiting factor to the talent pool. Publics do not face such a limitation.

Entrance exams. There are competitive academic exams for many of these schools. Yet another limiter.

Competition. Public school supporters seem to think that a private school just snaps its fingers and star players from all over flock to the program. In Ohio, the vast majority of players on the Big Catholics are, in fact, Catholics (WOW!). And there tends to be more than one private/Catholic school to choose from (in addition to the free, local public school)!

Also, I may not be up-to-date on this, but I believe that only two of the Big Catholics currently have unlimited drawing areas (Ignatius and St. X, which are Jesuit schools unaffiliated with the archdiocese).


That might be true, but saying they have only one african american player in the way you said it is very racist. ;

Second about the private schools, how many does Ohio have in a area compared to the number of public schools? It seems you guys have a lot more private school then where Im from.

concha
05-24-2005, 04:46 PM
That might be true, but saying they have only one african american player in the way you said it is very racist. ;

Second about the private schools, how many does Ohio have in a area compared to the number of public schools? It seems you guys have a lot more private school then where Im from.

No. It was not racist. Top players (like "all-stars") are disproportionately black. This isn't racist. It is simply a fact. So calling private schools "all-star" teams when they obviously lack a huge part of any area's "all-star" demographic is silly.

In Ohio D1 there are eight major Catholic schools (4 in Cincy, 2 in Cleveland and 2 in Toledo). There are generally 25-30 publics in each of Ohio D1's four regions and from 0-4 Big Catholics. Cleveland's Big Catholics are just 5-6 miles apart. Cincy's four Big Catholics are from 5 to maybe 16 or 18 miles apart. Colerain is within a few miles of 2 or 3 of these Big Catholics.

There are also many smaller Catholic schools in lower divisions that are well-known as strong football programs (Cleveland Bendictine, Dayton Chaminade-Julienne, Columbus DeSales and more).

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 06:53 PM
You seriously dont think thats racist? Skin color should not matter in football or anywhere.

NewSherriffInTown
05-24-2005, 07:13 PM
I'm not even close to a public school supporter.


I went to private school my whole life, I defend it to the death, but facts are facts. In fact, I went to Fordham Preparatory, a Jesuit school.


P.S. The archdiocese has nothing to do with what kids go there, and there are thousands of kids who go to catholic schools that aren't catholic. They either want the 100 times better education or the 100 times better athletics.


The catholics in Ohio are powerhouses because they are private, no ifs, ands, or buts...

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 07:20 PM
Thank you, we have someone with some common sense football wise.

What do you think about the racist thing?

ktCarl
05-24-2005, 07:28 PM
Anybody else here in Texas becoming a Tyler Lee fan? (Of course besides you Rebels)

dragonsdaddy
05-24-2005, 07:39 PM
certain posters surely do make being an antifan of ohio very easy.

svhorns
05-24-2005, 08:09 PM
I am now a HUGE Tyler Lee fan. I've always liked their style of play anyways. Keep the bickering going though im learning alot about Ohio highschool football, pretty interesting stuff.

KT2000
05-24-2005, 08:36 PM
I don't know why so many people wish Southlake was going. Sure, they'd be a good representative but Tyler Lee is an oustanding program that will also represent us very well. We have many programs (5A and 4A) that I'd send to play out of state games against the best in other states and not think twice about it. Tyler Lee is one of those programs.

The Piney Woods region of Texas produces more Division I-A and NFL talent per capita than a huge majority of the United States.

concha
05-24-2005, 09:41 PM
You seriously dont think thats racist? Skin color should not matter in football or anywhere.

Look. FYI, in my single days I dated women of many different ethnicities. In fact, my wife is a Latina with European, African and Native American ancestry. So save the "racist" stuff.

Ask yourself a couple of basic questions:

1) What percentage of the population is of African-American descent?

2) What percentage of high school football all-star teams, D1 recruits etc are African-American?

3) Which is greater? "1" or "2"?

This isn't racist. It's simple fact. Basic math for crying out loud. So calling Ohio Catholic school teams "all-stars" basically says that the typical best or better player in high school football in a large city these days is a white Catholic kid. Does that sound right to you? If it does, i'd love to see your reasoning and evidence to support it....

concha
05-24-2005, 09:43 PM
certain posters surely do make being an antifan of ohio very easy.

I'm sure you require a gargantuan shove to get there..... LOL.

wide-e-wide
05-24-2005, 09:44 PM
Listen. I don't know how sensitive the subject of race is in Ohio.
But I can promise you in Texas or any part of the south for that matter...it is very touchy. My advice would be to just drop it. You have no idea what your getting into with that subject.

concha
05-24-2005, 09:50 PM
I'm not even close to a public school supporter.
I went to private school my whole life, I defend it to the death, but facts are facts (yes, which facts? what are you talking about?) . In fact, I went to Fordham Preparatory, a Jesuit school.

P.S. The archdiocese has nothing to do with what kids go there (wrong) , and there are thousands of kids who go to catholic schools that aren't catholic (in Ohio the schools are well over 90% Catholic, FYI) . They either want the 100 times better education or the 100 times better athletics. (or a combination of academics, athletics, and religious schooling that the publics simply cannot touch)


The catholics in Ohio are powerhouses because they are private, no ifs, ands, or buts... (so, being a private school automatically makes you a football powerhouse? why? loads of D1 recruits magically show up? the better recruits in Ohio are normally found at the public powerhouses... help me here... where's your back-up? why aren't the privcate schools in Texas the best football programs in the state??)


Not a lot of substance in what you say...

LPMOM
05-24-2005, 09:52 PM
this Daugherty guy doesn't have a clue about highschool football in texas. it doesn't matter if we play a national game, "any given friday night" is still magical. money generated benifits the whole school, not just athletics. travel for our young athletes is an education experience within itself.

concha
05-24-2005, 10:04 PM
Listen. I don't know how sensitive the subject of race is in Ohio.
But I can promise you in Texas or any part of the south for that matter...it is very touchy. My advice would be to just drop it. You have no idea what your getting into with that subject.

Maybe it's touchy because some people are ignorant and can't distinguish between facts/statisitics and racism. My wife and sons are minorities. I am not about to let someone hint at my being "racist". And don't assume that I don't know anything about it. Thanks for the advice, and apologies if I sound blunt, but it is not something I take lightly....

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Alright I dont care what ethnicity you are but im going to leave it at this:

1. Assuming that having or not having African American players on your team makes them an all star team is stereotypical.

2. Labeling anyone in anyway because of their race is racist. You can say that what your saying isnt racist, but I know that me and a ton of other people in this country, know that it is wrong. Your race should have no affect on how you play on the football field or in life.

Also, can you explain how your private schools work? They seem to be different from the rest of the country.

ktchamp97
05-24-2005, 10:27 PM
No matter what happens in this game it won't settle anything. Sure, they were both state champs, but these aren't the same teams this year. If Lee wins, Colerain fans will just say, "Well, you didn't play our best team, yada yada..." and vice versa. This game will prove nothing as to which state's football is better.

We could argue this thing to death, but one thing that is fact is that national polls are garbage. What's the basis for comparison? Do they see all the teams? Do they have common opponents? The answers are none, no, and no...national polls are junk.

It is my opinion that no state rivals the depth and quality of PUBLIC high school football that we have in Texas. Other states have teams that are just as good as our top teams, but the difference is in the depth of good teams, the participation level, and the community involvement. Football is THE sport here, not just a sport.

cougarcb16
05-24-2005, 10:30 PM
No matter what happens in this game it won't settle anything. Sure, they were both state champs, but these aren't the same teams this year. If Lee wins, Colerain fans will just say, "Well, you didn't play our best team, yada yada..." and vice versa. This game will prove nothing as to which state's football is better.

We could argue this thing to death, but one thing that is fact is that national polls are garbage. What's the basis for comparison? Do they see all the teams? Do they have common opponents? The answers are none, no, and no...national polls are junk.

It is my opinion that no state rivals the depth and quality of PUBLIC high school football that we have in Texas. Other states have teams that are just as good as our top teams, but the difference is in the depth of good teams, the participation level, and the community involvement. Football is THE sport here, not just a sport.


Arite, what would you conclude if Tyler Lee beat Colerain like 40-20. Then Tyler Lee who you ranked #11 gets knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, and then Colerain goes to win the Ohio title again? Im pretty sure you can conclude something from that.

wide-e-wide
05-24-2005, 10:34 PM
Yeah...that if Colerain had to go through the Texas playoffs
they would be Laredo United South.

supercentex
05-24-2005, 10:40 PM
Yeah...that if Colerain had to go through the Texas playoffs
they would be Laredo United South.


Now that was a good one.

ktchamp97
05-24-2005, 11:47 PM
Arite, what would you conclude if Tyler Lee beat Colerain like 40-20. Then Tyler Lee who you ranked #11 gets knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, and then Colerain goes to win the Ohio title again? Im pretty sure you can conclude something from that.

It would depend on how Colerain finished their season, but, even then, I don't think that would be enough to make a definitive statement about the either state. There are too many factors involved.

NewSherriffInTown
05-25-2005, 12:46 AM
Concha, since you are so into statistics, lets take a look at private schools...


What percentage of the schools in Ohio is private??


What percentage of the titles won is private schools?? I bet its more than doubled...


and for that reason, there is an unfair advantage somewhere.

concha
05-25-2005, 06:56 AM
Alright I dont care what ethnicity you are but im going to leave it at this:

1. Assuming that having or not having African American players on your team makes them an all star team is stereotypical. The point is that a very large proportion of top football players are African-American. This is a simple fact. Not a racial judgment. Anyone can look at a team photo of an Ohio Big Catholic football team and see that the only potentail All-Star team they might comprise is white Catholic kids - a fairly limited demographic. As a result, accusations of "all-star" teams are silly. I was imply using an obvious way to make my point.

2. Labeling anyone in anyway because of their race is racist. You can say that what your saying isnt racist, but I know that me and a ton of other people in this country, know that it is wrong. Your race should have no affect on how you play on the football field or in life. I have made no judgments as to skin color making you good, bad or indifferent. YOU are inferring it. That certain ethnic groups make up bigger or smaller proportions of the better football athletes out there is just reality/facts/statistics. Not racism. Tell me, are either of these comments racist? "There are lots and lots of white guys in the NHL." "Most NBA players are African-Americans."......Well? Are either of them racist? I don't think so. They are obervations of FACT, of REALITY. They are not attempting to judge a group's inferiority or superiority or making a value judgment.

Also, can you explain how your private schools work? They seem to be different from the rest of the country.

Could you be more specific about the private schools question?

concha
05-25-2005, 07:02 AM
It is my opinion that no state rivals the depth and quality of PUBLIC high school football that we have in Texas. [I agree with this completely. No other state is even remotely close in terms of the overall numbers and quality of public high school football programs] Other states have teams that are just as good as our top teams [Agree] , but the difference is in the depth of good teams [Agree, but this is in major part due to the sheer size of Texas], the participation level, and the community involvement [I think Ohio is perhaps the only state that comes close to Texas here]. Football is THE sport here, not just a sport.


Well said.......

concha
05-25-2005, 07:14 AM
Concha, since you are so into statistics, lets take a look at private schools...


What percentage of the schools in Ohio is private??


What percentage of the titles won is private schools?? I bet its more than doubled...


and for that reason, there is an unfair advantage somewhere.

That the Big Catholics win a disproportionate amount of football titles in Ohio is no secret. I simply take issue with the "all-star" team knee-jerk reaction. I would say that the "advantages" might include:

1) Interest/dedication/family support. I think the competitive spirit, student/family involvement and general level of comeptitiveness at the Big Catholics is higher than in the public schools. The kids WANT to be involved and win. Most of the biggest football rivalries in Ohio involve Catholic schools (apart from Massillon-McKinley of course). 100-200 kids will come out for the freshman team. The varsities suit up 70, 80 and up to 100+ kids. The Big Catholics take football very seriously.

2) Discipline. In part matches up with the above point.

3) CYO. The private school kids tend to have been playing together or at least under the same system since grade school.

While many years ago Moeller could have been accused of having "all-star" teams, the fact is that for many years you will not have seen the Big Catholics putting out disproportionate numbers of top recruits and blue chippers. You will find balanced teams with few weaknesses, but athletes like a Ted Ginn, Jr. are not common.

I would not say that any of these reasons are "unfair". The Big Catholics pass up many good players because of tuition, religious and academic issues.

gwdaddy
05-25-2005, 12:33 PM
Concha:

If you replace each occurence of the words "the Big Catholics" in your last post with the words "Southlake Carroll", you will have fairly well described the demographics and keys to success of the nation's number one high school football program. Oh, and also replace CYO with some reference to youth league sports in Southlake.

Good luck to both your team and Lee. I will enjoy the game.

cougarcb16
05-25-2005, 02:57 PM
Could you be more specific about the private schools question?

Just like how the schools work in Ohio. From what you are saying it seems like public schools are outwieghed by private schools. If you look at a lot of the better teams around the country, the privates win the state title a lot, because people go there to play football.

concha
05-25-2005, 03:13 PM
Just like how the schools work in Ohio. From what you are saying it seems like public schools are outwieghed by private schools. If you look at a lot of the better teams around the country, the privates win the state title a lot, because people go there to play football.

I will speak for Ohio when I say "no", people don't go to the schools with football as their primary reason for attending. Some accusations like that might have been levelled at Moeller back in their heyday, but not today.

The private schools in Ohio that are good at football tend to be Catholic. And the teams reflect their religious underpinnings: the vast majority of players are Catholics and many if not most attended local parish grade schools.

In Cincinnati, for example, many Elder students were destioned to be Panthers since birth. Literally generation after generation goes there. Fathers, uncles, cousins go there and send their sons when their time comes. There is a fierce loyalty to the school. You simply don't find much transferring of local public school football stars into the Big Catholics when it comes time to choose a high school.

These teams are successful due to the competitive nature of the schools, their dedication, coaching and family support. The teams are unexceptional in turning out superstar players, but will kill you with balance and depth.

cougarcb16
05-25-2005, 04:30 PM
It seems as though your privates are pretty much like your publics. Can i ask the enrollment on average in your largest class? For private and public.

c-lisle
05-25-2005, 04:45 PM
As much as it hurts to admit it, I gotta agree whole-heartedly with this guy. We will lose sight of what makes high school football so special if we don't watch out.. :rolleyes:

Does this guy live under a rock? Coaches get fired all the time in HS for not winning. Teachers also give a grade or two to help a player pass.

c-lisle
05-25-2005, 04:48 PM
[QUOTE=supercentex]Let's keep our preps in perspective

By Paul Daugherty
Enquirer staff writer

ADVERTISEMENT


Aren't we advocating the same culture in high schools we've been damning in Division I colleges? How long before the pressure to win, make money and be on TV starts getting high school coaches fired? How long before we hear about cheating, grade-fixing and various other misdeeds? And where does it stop?

[\QUOTE]


I was refering to this qoute.

c-lisle
05-25-2005, 04:51 PM
Just like steroids, these things have been going on for years and no one has made a big deal out it.

R E Lee
05-26-2005, 03:52 PM
I'm not sure what to think about this "to much pressure" talk. Is that not what big time sports are about--- Pressure? I would say that the ability to deal with situations under pressure is on of the best life skills I learned from High School and College football. It prepared me immensely for life.

I have news for everyone. The real world in not full of 8 hour sleep nights, one task at a time days and a five o'clock whistle. These kids and their parents choose for them to play football, and in Texas, football is big.

You don't want it to ruin thier lives, or cause kids to loose perspective, but I trully believe it is a valuable education tool for life in the real world.

For the record, I am a football purist - no cheating, kids be required to do well in the classroom, players held to a moral standard above society as a whole, etc... I think you can have good football teams and community support without corrupting the program. I guess it depends on the community.

stevefoxsc
05-27-2005, 12:47 AM
Arite, what would you conclude if Tyler Lee beat Colerain like 40-20. Then Tyler Lee who you ranked #11 gets knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, and then Colerain goes to win the Ohio title again? Im pretty sure you can conclude something from that.

ok that just utterly stupid what about the times waco High beat judson and judson went out to win state does that mean waco should be the state champs any team can win on any given night if ohio lose to tyler lee and tyler lee loses first round play off's doesnt say much but tyler lee, accept they lose and time for basket ball thats about all i can get out of it what about any one else?

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 08:53 AM
ok that just utterly stupid what about the times waco High beat judson and judson went out to win state does that mean waco should be the state champs any team can win on any given night if ohio lose to tyler lee and tyler lee loses first round play off's doesnt say much but tyler lee, accept they lose and time for basket ball thats about all i can get out of it what about any one else?

I used to think that (we won that game, lost this game, and the other team winning that game) stuff meant one team was better than the other team theory. But, over the years I've seen that theory doesnt hold water.

I've seen the same teams play in September and November. In Sleptember one team would win by 20pts and in November the other team won 20pts.

But, I will say that if Tyler Lee travels to Ohio and beats Colerain (in there backyard). Plus, Tyler Lee wins by like 20 pts and controls the yardage like (2-1). It would be tough for me to believe that Tyler Lee is an inferior team to Colerain. Just my opinion.

RockinL
05-27-2005, 11:09 AM
I used to think that (we won that game, lost this game, and the other team winning that game) stuff meant one team was better than the other team theory. But, over the years I've seen that theory doesnt hold water.

I've seen the same teams play in September and November. In Sleptember one team would win by 20pts and in November the other team won 20pts.

But, I will say that if Tyler Lee travels to Ohio and beats Colerain (in there backyard). Plus, Tyler Lee wins by like 20 pts and controls the yardage like (2-1). It would be tough for me to believe that Tyler Lee is an inferior team to Colerain. Just my opinion.
Oh man....here comes Conchita with his list of last years Colerain stats.... ;)

wide-e-wide
05-27-2005, 12:19 PM
RockinL...glad to see you made it over here to the new board.
Conchita...ha! Call him shell.....

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=RockinL]Oh man....here comes Conchita with his list of last years Colerain stats....

Ya, your probably right. He'll be here talking about how his team was just filled with outrageous talent and how untouchable they were (Offense couldnt be stopped and defense couldnt be broken). :rolleyes:

concha
05-27-2005, 12:20 PM
Oh man....here comes Conchita with his list of last years Colerain stats.... ;)

That's "Conchita Sir!" to you rockinl.... ;)


No need, I have it from an expert that Colerain is doomed to get thrashed by at least 17 points. So why bother?

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 12:27 PM
That's "Conchita Sir!" to you rockinl.... ;)


No need, I have it from an expert that Colerain is doomed to get thrashed by at least 17 points. So why bother?

Concha, I thought you ran and hid on that "other site" :(

Hey, who are going to be the top #1 -#5 in Ohio this year ? Just wondering.

Since your more to speed with Ohio football than myself thought I would ask.

#1
#2
#3
#4
#5

who are they ?

wide-e-wide
05-27-2005, 12:37 PM
1.Colerain
2.Colerain JV
3.Colerain Intermediate
4.Colerain Pop Warner
5. The pregnant mothers of future Colerain players

concha
05-27-2005, 12:41 PM
1.Colerain
2.Colerain JV
3.Colerain Intermdiate
4.Colerain Pop Warner
5. The pregnant mothers of future Colerain players

You are the antithesis of the term "value-added".

Mr. Buddy Garrity
05-27-2005, 12:42 PM
1.Colerain
2.Colerain JV
3.Colerain Intermdiate
4.Colerain Pop Warner
5. The pregnant mothers of future Colerain players
OMFG! ha ha LMAO!!!! I just got my laugh for the day....LOL :D

concha
05-27-2005, 12:45 PM
Concha, I thought you ran and hid on that "other site" :(

Hey, who are going to be the top #1 -#5 in Ohio this year ? Just wondering.

Since your more to speed with Ohio football than myself thought I would ask.

#1
#2
#3
#4
#5

who are they ?

Run from what? Hey, been threatened with legal action lately? :p


1-3 Colerain, St. Ignatius, Glenville (no clearly superior team here, Glenville has unreal speed/athletes, but lags in other fundamentals)

Next: St. Xavier, Moeller (one of these two will be the #2 team in Southwest Ohio in all likelihood), Warren Harding, St. Edward

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 12:53 PM
Run from what? Hey, been threatened with legal action lately? :p


1-3 Colerain, St. Ignatius, Glenville (no clearly superior team here, Glenville has unreal speed/athletes, but lags in other fundamentals)

Next: St. Xavier, Moeller (one of these two will be the #2 team in Southwest Ohio in all likelihood), Warren Harding, St. Edward

Legal action ? No, please explain ? I would like to hear this ?

concha
05-27-2005, 12:57 PM
Legal action ? No, please explain ? I would like to hear this ?

From another Texas site. I believe you use a different name there. It was mainly directed at Great State of Texas, but you were clearly mentioned. Must be your sparkling personality.

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 01:05 PM
From another Texas site. I believe you use a different name there. It was mainly directed at Great State of Texas, but you were clearly mentioned. Must be your sparkling personality.

No, I'll have to check that out? Where is it exactly ? This could get fun. Especailly when I show it to some AUSA friends of mine. Where is it :)

concha
05-27-2005, 01:08 PM
No, I'll have to check that out? Where is it exactly ? This could get fun. Especailly when I show it to some AUSA friends of mine. Where is it :)

Well, why not do a little hunting for it? Ask Great State of Texas, perhaps he might be happy to show you.

concha
05-27-2005, 01:10 PM
BTW, what is your take on Chaminade (FL). I have seen them ranked #3 in Flroida pre-season. I understand the have some solid athletes.... Any scuttlebut from S Florida way?

BTW, I expect REL to beat them also.

Texasfrog
05-27-2005, 02:06 PM
BTW, what is your take on Chaminade (FL). I have seen them ranked #3 in Flroida pre-season. I understand the have some solid athletes.... Any scuttlebut from S Florida way?

BTW, I expect REL to beat them also.

Living here in South Florida for the past few years. I'm not very impressed with their "Team football." They have some solid athletes on a few of the top level teams that will go on to become solid college players.

But, the "TEAM Work" isnt there in my opinion. Neither is the coaching.

I fully expect that Tyler Lee will control that game from start to finish. "MY OPINION."

The best team I've seen in Florida the last few years was Jacksonville Bolles (Team work, speed, ability and coaching). They could play with the Texas top #15 and not be pushed around at all.

St.Thomas Aquinas wouldnt be pushed around much either.

Other than those two teams. Hmmmmm ????

RockinL
05-27-2005, 03:15 PM
That's "Conchita Sir!" to you rockinl.... ;)


No need, I have it from an expert that Colerain is doomed to get thrashed by at least 17 points. So why bother?


Sr. Conchita. ..you sabe tan bien que yo que este juego debe ser probablemente un tiro arriba.

wide-e-wide
05-27-2005, 08:33 PM
it knows so well that I that this I play it must be probably a shot arrives.

Que?...WTF?

sltnusmc
06-07-2005, 03:29 PM
I honestly think that the Colerain players will be suprised by the team speed of Lee players and that is the one thing you can't simulate in practices.

SWTAlumni
06-09-2005, 03:51 PM
If LEE comes to play against the Florida team it could get really ugly really quick. I think the LEE coaches are licking their chops when they watch these guys on film. It's always hard to tell about the first game of the season because most will have jitters, missed asignments, dropped balls, fumbles, offsides, and just about all of the other momentum stopping miscues.

I think the onesided tilt of talent on the LEE side of the field will be displayed early in the 1st 5 or 6 offensive drives.
Anyways, save some for Ohio RED RAIDERS!

Colerain-Cards
06-16-2005, 09:10 PM
I honestly think that the Colerain players will be suprised by the team speed of Lee players and that is the one thing you can't simulate in practices.

You might be surprised by Colerain's speed too!

Texasfrog
08-29-2005, 12:41 PM
Ohio teams don't need to to spend the money and effort to travel to Texas. That's like a Hawaiian traveling to Florida in search of the perfect wave. The pollsters have had it right for a long time now. Ohio is king. Find a state with more than Ohio. If there is one, it ain't Texas.

National High School Champs (http://community-2.webtv.net/SEKSPORTS/HIGHSCHOOLCOMM/page8.html)

Here's one Conche

concha
08-29-2005, 12:58 PM
Here's one Conche

TexasFrog,

A few points.

1) Thanks for finally stepping up with SOMETHING.

2) I am willing to wager that I was taking undeserved flak for quite some time before posting that (translation: I was provoked).

3) I notice on another thread you put the "football ragu" one. Let's be fair, here. That was in response to a request for more smack (I believe the previous post in the thread?) and was done tongue in cheek - and obviously so.

4) I have over 340 posts on this site. Find something I said when not provoked. Right now, even if we count the one in point 3 (which is ridiculous), you are looking at a fraction of a percent of my posts.

bullrock
08-29-2005, 05:26 PM
I've only just read through this thread. Can't blame the folks from other states thinking they are the best. I'm sure Maddonna thought they would run over Lee last week and so did a few of the "so called" football geniuses, better known as recruiting services. I'm sure Colerain is the best in Ohio, but this aint no Ohio team. Lee should represent Texas well and should win. As for all of the private vs. public.........that's another story and one we don't take lightly in the Great State of Texas. Look at all the states that combine privates and publics then look at all of the titles won by the privates. If you don't think there is an advantage by being private then you are not being honest with yourself. You talk about so and so's birthright to go to a certain Cathlic school is something known only to the big Catholics??? Give em a break! How many 7 year olds running around any Texas community would want to play for any team other than the local one? Man, you are talking Texas Football! It's not a disease only the Cathlics can catch. It is one we have all survived! So, if you think Ohios Catholics are really that great, you aint seen nothin'! :cool: