Russia invades Georgian Republic

[HebronDad]

This is not good... We had out troops over there since July training their forces. As of yet, the Georgian President has not asked the US for assistance, but you can bet he will if the Russian forces continue to push into Georgia. Georgia only has 38K for an army and had recently asked for acceptance into NATO. The UN is asking for restraint, but many of the leaders are at the Olympics.

This could get very bad, very quickly. Cross your fingers that cooler heads prevail.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

[LoneRocket]

This is not good... We had out troops over there since July training their forces. As of yet, the Georgian President has not asked the US for assistance, but you can bet he will if the Russian forces continue to push into Georgia. Georgia only has 38K for an army and had recently asked for acceptance into NATO. The UN is asking for restraint, but many of the leaders are at the Olympics.

This could get very bad, very quickly. Cross your fingers that cooler heads prevail.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

This will be interesting Bush and Putin are in China right now.

[toonman]

Russia back up to their old tricks again.

[slorch]

difference here is, the Georgian state is pro-russia. Kind of like if France invaded Massachussetts...

[78 Spartan]

difference here is, the Georgian state is pro-russia. Kind of like if France invaded Massachussetts...


whatcha wanna bet that pro-Russian state also has a buttload of oil and gas, or pipelines, or whatever? follow the petrodollars.

Also, I believe Georgia was always strategic to Moscow because of warm weather ports on the Black Sea.

This is scary stuff. My guess is the Russian army will knife through Georgia like a hot knife through butter, and it'll be over before the UN can react.

Am sure Bush will get US forces out of the way. We don't want to start WWIII over Georgia. Which is sad, but the geopolitical truth. Like, are we going to allow Taiwan to cause WWIII?

[jtk1519]

*Paging Firebird*

[stevefoxsc]

you know what, there have been some idiots in this country that actually believed russia was in the state georgia...

[hunterbunter]

man when i read this on msn this morning i thought Russia had attacked Georgia :eek:...i was already gonna turn to allhipop.com to see what Lil Jon had to say about this

[slorch]

whatcha wanna bet that pro-Russian state also has a buttload of oil and gas, or pipelines, or whatever? follow the petrodollars.

Also, I believe Georgia was always strategic to Moscow because of warm weather ports on the Black Sea.

This is scary stuff. My guess is the Russian army will knife through Georgia like a hot knife through butter, and it'll be over before the UN can react.

Am sure Bush will get US forces out of the way. We don't want to start WWIII over Georgia. Which is sad, but the geopolitical truth. Like, are we going to allow Taiwan to cause WWIII?

you are right. I probably should not have made light of it.

[Redhoss]

whatcha wanna bet that pro-Russian state also has a buttload of oil and gas, or pipelines, or whatever? follow the petrodollars.

Also, I believe Georgia was always strategic to Moscow because of warm weather ports on the Black Sea.

This is scary stuff. My guess is the Russian army will knife through Georgia like a hot knife through butter, and it'll be over before the UN can react.

Am sure Bush will get US forces out of the way. We don't want to start WWIII over Georgia. Which is sad, but the geopolitical truth. Like, are we going to allow Taiwan to cause WWIII?

I believe there is a pipeline that flows from a neighboring State through Georgia and on to Turkey.

[EagleDude73]

you know what, there have been some idiots in this country that actually believed russia was in the state georgia...

The Bulldawgs have had a run of bad luck this year already. Oops, wrong thread. :rolleyes: On topic, Russia will have this thing over before the Perseids hit.

[slorch]

I wonder why the Russians are trying to take Atlanta?

[TheBigPeach]

I wonder why the Russians are trying to take Atlanta?

Dude, There is tank outside my house now. Curfew is at 9:00. This sucks.

[EagleDude73]

I wonder why the Russians are trying to take Atlanta?

Another "Gone With the Wind" remake. "Frankly my dear I don't give a d*mn."

[jtk1519]

Dude, There is tank outside my house now. Curfew is at 9:00. This sucks.

You should burn a couch.

[jrock210]

you know what, there have been some idiots in this country that actually believed russia was in the state georgia...

LMAO before I read Georgian and not Georgia I was like wow! Russia is getting brave

[twcpfan1]

I wonder why the Russians are trying to take Atlanta?

never been there but i heard they had good strip bars there. table dances are only 10 bucks. that's why.

[ktCarl]

man when i read this on msn this morning i thought Russia had attacked Georgia :eek:...i was already gonna turn to allhipop.com to see what Lil Jon had to say about this

Yeah, I was wondering how long it was going to take them to get to Atlanta. If Jerry Glanville is still there Georgia should offer him up as a hostage.

How sneaky of Russia to do this with so many Country's leaders at the Olympics.

[Firebird]

*Paging Firebird*

I've been watching this closely, and hearing a lot of nonsense on the news. I was next door last year at this time in Armenia when tensions started to really rachet up between the two. This will take two posts.

This isn't in any way about oil or pipelines. There is a pipeline that runs through Georgia (Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan), but it is outside the contested region of South Ossetia. It isn't about warm-water ports, either. Russia has a warm-water port on the Black Sea in Krasnodar Krai, just up the coast from Georgia's Black Sea ports. South Ossetia does not have any oil or petro dollars, it is a poor, isolated enclave up in the mountains.

This is first and foremost an ethnic conflict. Looking at an ethno-lingusitc map of the Caucasus is like looking at a bizarre patchwork quilt. The Romans used to call this region the "mountain of languages" and there are literally hundreds of small different mini-nations in the region. In other places religion is also a sticking point, as there are several stripes of Christians, Muslims, pagans, and even a small enclave of mountain Jews. This happens to be a quarrel between Orthodox Christians. In some places there dividing line is simply a range of small mountains. When we left Yerevan for the north of the country, we drove down into one valley dotted with Russian speaking villages of Old Believer Cossacks. The next was Armenian, the next Yezidi, a small pagan group.

A lot of people have the idea that when the Soviet Union split apart, the new nations that emerged were somehow natural states with natural borders with a historical precedent. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Georgia and the other nations of the Caucusus have virtually no modern history as a state. The region has been contested and fought over as far back as Sassanid Persia and Rome, with various empires-- Turkish, Arab, Persian, Russian, then Soviet. The local kings and lords served as vassals to their more powerful neigbors. Georgia was incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1800, when the empire was expanding throughout the Caucusus. Georgia and the rest of the region were kind of like the Wild West for the States--- a region full of exotic, half-civilized tribes, brigands and bandits, and Russian soldiers. Some of the best Russian literature by Lermontov, Pushkin, and Tolsoty is about adventures in the Caucusus. In any event, it's difficult to speak of the existence of an independent Georgia in history.

The Georgians briefly asserted independence in 1918 when Russia was mired in its revolution and civil war. By 1921 the Red Army had successfully reasserted its control and the borders of the modern nation of Georgia were set as the Georgian SSR. However, the SSR of Georgia (and others) were not by any measure independent, and they included lots of non-Georgian ethnic minorities and enclaves. For centuries, these groups retained primary loyalty to their own groups (Ossetes with Ossetes, Abkhaz with Abkhaz, etc.), maintained their own identies, and existed as mini-nations within greater empires. In the days of the Soviet Union, it was not a big deal that North Ossetia was in the Russian SSR while their South Ossetian compatriots lay across the mountains in the Georgian SSR.

However, upon the crackup of the Soviet Union, the fifteen Soviet Socialst Republics all declared independence and claimed as borders the boundaries of the old SSRs. Suddenly, the South Ossetians found themselves separated from their ethnic cousins by an international border. In Azerbaijan, the Armenian enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh found itself isolated from the Armenian homeland. Because of these new, unnatural borders, several conflicts broke out-- in Abkhazia (also Georgia) and Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh. The "facts on the ground" changed during these wars, as well. Ethnic refugees fled into the enclaves where their groups had a majority, and in South Ossetia, ethnic Georgians fled to Georgia and Ossetes fled from Georgia.

In the case of South Ossetia, the Ossetes wanted to join their fellow Ossetes in the new Russian federation. An insurgency flared up against the Georgians, and eventually the warring factions accepted a cease-fire brokered by the OSCE wherby Russian peacekeepers moved into South Ossetia. However, the Georgians grumbled that the Russians were not honest brokers and they were naturally pre-disposed to want to help the Ossetes find their way into the Russian federation.

[Firebird]

The conflict stayed "frozen" in this situation. Meanwhile, relations between Russian and Georgia got worse and worse. The Russians were especially infuriated by Mikhail Saakashvili and his "Rose Revolution". Saakashvili cast himself as the pro-Western, democratic challenger to the old Soviet-era guard. After winning the presidency, he wasted no time in cozying up to the United States. In this he was following a practice prevalent in the Caucusus from time immemorial-- making nice with the imperial power most likely to give you a fairly free hand inside your little fiefdom. Little has changed since Armenian kings played Roman emporers against Sassanid Persians. His assent to send a (comparatively) huge Georgian contingent to Iraq had nothing to do with sympathy for the U.S. cause and everything to do with binding us to help in the event of more troubles with the Russians. The Russians have been seething this whole decade as they watch Georgia, a former part of both the Soviet and Russian empire, get cozy with the U.S. and NATO. They view this whole region as their backyard, and so they bumped up their covert support for the Ossetes.

Saakashvili, as a nationalist president, had long promised to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia to heel. Contrary to what ktCarl thinks, it was actually he who used the Olympics as a cover to try and change the facts on the ground. He launched an offensive against the South Ossetian insurgents on Thursday which killed several Russian peacekeepers in their barracks. Russia was more than willing to take advantage of the opening to finally take real action against this long-time thorn in their side. It's safe to say that Saakashvili did not expect this violent of a response from the Russians. They have been emboldend by the precedent set in Kosovo of ethnic self-determination.

[twcpfan1]

They better beef up security around both the Russian and Georgian athletes in Beijing. Let's hope they all get through the games safely.

[mojotrain]

Dude, There is tank outside my house now. Curfew is at 9:00. This sucks.

Never fear TBP the Un is gonna jump all over this thing. Just hold on.

[mojotrain]

The conflict stayed "frozen" in this situation. Meanwhile, relations between Russian and Georgia got worse and worse. The Russians were especially infuriated by Mikhail Saakashvili and his "Rose Revolution". Saakashvili cast himself as the pro-Western, democratic challenger to the old Soviet-era guard. After winning the presidency, he wasted no time in cozying up to the United States. In this he was following a practice prevalent in the Caucusus from time immemorial-- making nice with the imperial power most likely to give you a fairly free hand inside your little fiefdom. Little has changed since Armenian kings played Roman emporers against Sassanid Persians. His assent to send a (comparatively) huge Georgian contingent to Iraq had nothing to do with sympathy for the U.S. cause and everything to do with binding us to help in the event of more troubles with the Russians. The Russians have been seething this whole decade as they watch Georgia, a former part of both the Soviet and Russian empire, get cozy with the U.S. and NATO. They view this whole region as their backyard, and so they bumped up their covert support for the Ossetes.

Saakashvili, as a nationalist president, had long promised to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia to heel. Contrary to what ktCarl thinks, it was actually him who used the Olympics as a cover to try and change the facts on the ground. He launched an offensive against the South Ossetian insurgents on Thursday which killed several Russian peacekeepers in their barracks. Russia was more than willing to take advantage of the opening to finally take real action against this long-time thorn in their side. It's safe to say that Saakashvili did not expect this violent of a response from the Russians. They have been emboldend by the precedent set in Kosovo of ethnic self-determination.

Good post, thanks for the insite. Like I was telling the lady in the Coffee Bean at the Vagas Venetian at 5:00 this am. No need to worry the UN is going to get all over those Russian bullys stuff PDQ.

[Firebird]

Good post, thanks for the insite. Like I was telling the lady in the Coffee Bean at the Vagas Venetian at 5:00 this am. No need to worry the UN is going to get all over those Russian bullys stuff PDQ.

I certainly hope that the rest of the world stays out of this. This is a nasty ethnic conflict in a place that most people in the world would have trouble finding on the map. There's a question as to how viable the South Caucasian states really are. As I said, there is little historic precedent for independent states down there, they have always been integrated to various degrees to the surrounding empires. Russia has long wanted a more pliant Georgia and now they are doing something about it. Saakashvili made a serious error in openly challenging the status quo by launching his offensive against the region. He's bitten off more than he can chew.

The Russians have been irked with the Georgians for reasons other than this. Back when the Chechen war was raging, the rebel Muslim fighters took refuge in Georgia's Pankisi Gorge, and Georgia did little to stop them.

[Firebird]

This is by far the best and most indepth article about the situation, including background:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

Note that the author mentions that Georgia was Stalin's homeland. That fact alone speaks volumes about how deeply intertwined Russian and Georgia are and have been for centuries. This is an ugly family affair.

[mojotrain]

This is by far the best and most indepth article about the situation, including background:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

Note that the author mentions that Georgia was Stalin's homeland. That fact alone speaks volumes about how deeply intertwined Russian and Georgia are and have been for centuries. This is an ugly family affair.

Then you think the UN would be off limits in this fight?

[Firebird]

Then you think the UN would be off limits in this fight?

The UN is already in Georgia, UNOMIG in Abkhazia. OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe) has been the international body most concerned with South Ossetia, and the Russian peacekeepers who were killed by the Georgian offensive were there in that context. The UN absolutely has a role as a mediator and forum for discussion, but should not consider military intervention.

[stevefoxsc]

Dude, There is tank outside my house now. Curfew is at 9:00. This sucks.

and i **** you not there were some people that literally thought russa was in the states.

[ktCarl]

Contrary to what ktCarl thinks, it was actually he who used the Olympics as a cover to try and change the facts on the ground. He launched an offensive against the South Ossetian insurgents on Thursday which killed several Russian peacekeepers in their barracks. Russia was more than willing to take advantage of the opening to finally take real action against this long-time thorn in their side. It's safe to say that Saakashvili did not expect this violent of a response from the Russians. They have been emboldend by the precedent set in Kosovo of ethnic self-determination.

See, everybody. Firebird said I was half-right and half-wrong. How much better have all of you done? :D

[slorch]

See, everybody. Firebird said I was half-right and half-wrong. How much better have all of you done? :D

Firebird half-way agreeing with you should be your first indicator of defeat...;):D

[TheBigPeach]

This needs to end now. Way too much blood being spilled.

[Firebird]

There should be little doubt now that Saakashvili has made a serious error in judgement. Russia is making a point right now. There's been a lot of talk about how Beijing's Olympics is China's "coming out party."

The world is now watching the Russian Federation's "coming out party." This is the first major Russian military action outside of the boundaries of the Russian Federation since the break-up of the Soviet Union.

What's happening in Georgia is an indefensible overreaction to Georgia's decision to step up the fight against the rebels in South Ossetia. But at this point not only are they bringing Georgia to heel, they are sending a message to the West and to their "Near Abroad" (basically, the former Soviet states save the Baltics). That message is-- don't :Censor: with the bear anymore. He's back on his feet. The West will not protect you and the bear will not tolerate anymore insolence.

Back when the USSR had imploded and Russia's economy had collapsed and its military was being humiliated in Chechnya, a Russian diplomat told an American diplomat-- "Right now Russia is on her knees. But she will get up, and she will remember how she was treated." Now the world is finding out what that means, and it's a damn shame.