Why Weis, But Not Willingham?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

This is an interesting write-up from Jason Whitlock, a 10-year columnist at the Kansas City Star. I would like to pose a question to all of you:

Was Willingham's treatment by Notre Dame racist?

After you read this ESPN article, that Jason Whitlock wrote, think for a few minutes, then please answer the question!

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Why Weis, but not Willingham?

By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2


I believe it was the great Negro philosopher Don King who best summarized Charlie Weis' Notre Dame contract extension: "Only in America."

Because only in the land of apple pie, baseball and hypocrisy would a major sports organization have the audacity to give a white football coach a record contract for winning five of his first seven games just a few months after prematurely firing a black coach who won his first eight.

You have to be impressed with Notre Dame's arrogance.

Critics be damned! You might think the firing of Ty Willie was racist. That was nothing. Wait until you see how we treat his successor.

Weis got the better of Willingham this season -- but Willingham had the better start at ND.

For the record, I didn't have a problem with Notre Dame's firing Willingham. Yes, he deserved five years. But his firing didn't strike me as particularly racist, just shortsighted and unfair. Life is rarely fair, and we're certainly an instant-gratification society. The same factors could and do lead to the premature demise of white coaches (see Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown, Detroit Pistons).

Now, Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million … that strikes me as racist. Because there's just no way Notre Dame, or any school for that matter, would do the same thing for a black coach.

How do I know this?

Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back.

Sit down before reading the next couple of sentences, because what I'm about to tell you will shock you.

SOUND OFF
Jason Whitlock says that Charlie Weis' contract extension is not only shortsighted, but in the wake of Tyrone Willingham's dismissal at Notre Dame, it's quite possibly racist. How do you feel about that?

Charlie Weis has not proven that he's the second coming of Joe Paterno, or Jimmy Johnson, or Pete Carroll, or even Bob Stoops. Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to.

Notre Dame has beaten a mediocre Michigan team, a Dave Wannstedt-coached Pittsburgh team that is .500 only because the Big East is terrible, the third- or fourth-best team in the Mountain West Conference (BYU), a bad Purdue squad, and a Washington club with one victory (vs. Idaho).

Please don't tell the CIA I told you this -- this information is classified top secret -- but the combined record of Weis' victims is 17-24.

I know, I know. You turn on the TV, pick up the newspaper or click on the Internet, and you're led to believe that Notre Dame, under the ingenious direction of the "Great Weis Hope," is undefeated, having hammered USC, Texas and Virginia Tech all in the same weekend.

Sadly, it's not true. Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC. Buddy Teevens (Stanford) and Karl Dorrell (UCLA) put the same thing on their résumés last year. But they're still waiting on their 10-year, $30 million-$40 million contracts.

In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams -- all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43.

And how 'bout this?

Willingham won those eight games with Carlyle Holiday, an option quarterback recruited by Bob Davie, running Willingham's West Coast passing offense.

The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.

Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense.

Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind.

Who's gotten a sweeter deal than Weis after seven games?
I'm sorry if this column comes off like a vicious attack on Weis. It's not. I think Weis has a chance to be an outstanding head coach. I'm actually rooting for Weis to be successful. Two members of his coaching staff -- defensive coordinator Rick Minter and tight ends coach Bernie Parmalee -- go back to my Ball State playing days. Minter owns the best football mind I've ever been around, and he deserves another head coaching position. Parmalee, my former teammate, is as good a human being as you'll ever meet. I consider Minter and Parmalee friends. If Weis succeeds, it means my two friends will benefit.

Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal.

If the New York Giants or any other NFL team decides it wants Weis as its coach, there's no amount of money that is going to stand in the way of that getting done. Only Weis can stop that deal by saying he'd prefer to remain a college coach.

You think Weis is the only college coach the NFL has ever been interested in?

After winning a national championship, Stoops has had to turn down the NFL almost every year. You think an NFL team wouldn't give Carroll another opportunity?

This is a gigantic overreaction by a school administration that should know better. They watched Willingham experience early success and then struggle. Notre Dame has no clue whether Weis can recruit or sustain success.

Let's call this exactly what it is: greed and stupidity. Just like Terrell Owens -- but with far less proof -- Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it.

Maybe had Willingham tried push-ups and sit-ups in his driveway, he would still be Notre Dame's coach. Never mind. T.O. tried that.

[bowiedawgs01]

Whitlock is an *********, so I really don't care what he has to say.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Whitlock is an *********, so I really don't care what he has to say.

Is that your answer to the question?

[jtk1519]

Whitlock is an idiot... always has been. He could find more blue m&ms than brown m&ms and he would be screaming racism.

What he won't tell you is why ND gave Weis that extension and not Willingham. Weis has an NFL resume. He was already a hot commodity among NFL teams looking for a new coach. Willingham wasn’t. ND gave Weis that contract extension because they wanted to secure his rights well into the future. The last thing ND wants to do is go looking for another coach. By signing Weis to this deal, it is going to get some of the NFL teams off his back. Make no mistake about it, there is a buyout clause in that contract and ND won't hesitate to hand Weis his pink slip if his team's start slipping like Willingham's did.

BTW, when Bob Davie was fired as the ND head coach he had the exact same winning percentage as Willingham when he was fired. I’d be willing to be Whitlock didn't find it racist then.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Whitlock is an idiot... always has been. He could find more blue m&ms than brown m&ms and he would be screaming racism.

What he won't tell you is why ND gave Weis that extension and not Willingham. Weis has an NFL resume. He was already a hot commodity among NFL teams looking for a new coach. Willingham wasn’t. ND gave Weis that contract extension because they wanted to secure his rights well into the future. The last thing ND wants to do is go looking for another coach. By signing Weis to this deal, it is going to get some of the NFL teams off his back. Make no mistake about it, there is a buyout clause in that contract and ND won't hesitate to hand Weis his pink slip if his team's start slipping like Willingham's did.

BTW, when Bob Davie was fired as the ND head coach he had the exact same winning percentage as Willingham when he was fired. I’d be willing to be Whitlock didn't find it racist then.

No offense, but spare me the "securing of the rights" excuse! Being hounded by different programs comes with the territory. Do you think Willingham wasn't approached by other college programs or NFL programs?

And....Willingham has an NFL resume - too, as he was under Green at the Minnesota Vikings, and the Vikings were NFL Central Champions twice when he was there. Also, Willingham was Pac-10 Coach of the Year, twice, as the Head Coach of Stanford, and National Coach of the year in 2002, with Notre Dame.

Was the decision to let Willingham go, premature? Of course! I feel it was wrong considering he didn't have the opportunity to coach the players he recruited. Weis has gotten that opportunity...and is finding Willingham made some great choices! (i.e....Quinn, etc.)

This whole, "we're gonna let people know, Weis is our man, so that we can get the pressure off his back" crap is insulting.

To answer the question....

I think the treatment of Notre Dame towards Willingham was racist! But not in the way you think. Tyrone succeeded far more than Weis in his first season....and even if Notre Dame finishes the season undefeated they still wouldn't have beaten the kind of opponents Willingham beat....key word being BEAT!! 2002 top 25 opponents...Maryland, Michigan, Air Force and Florida State. (Yes, Air Force broke the top 25 that year!) And after the Florida State game Notre Dame was ranked #4 in the nation....for the first time since 1999. But no $40 million dollar contract was offered!!!

And, IMO, there's a shortage of black head coaches in a sport that is compiled, predominantly, of blacks.....so there's no way I would ever think a black head coach would get a 10 yr/40 Million Dollar contract...even if it was to try and "get other programs/leagues off his back"!

[Hdshrinker]

Is that your answer to the question?



Thought out and succinct......

[Primetime536]

Thought out and succinct......
Weis is an amazing coach, best system in college, besides usc texas flordia and techs well and a few others, the mans a football genius.

[Hdshrinker]

Weis is an amazing coach, best system in college, besides usc texas flordia and techs well and a few others, the mans a football genius.


I agree......further I think that is part of New England's woes.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Weis is an amazing coach, best system in college, besides usc texas flordia and techs well and a few others, the mans a football genius.

I totally agree...Weis is a very good coach. I'm still waiting, however, for him to win the "BIG" games! I think they will get there, eventually, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the National Championship next year!

Well, that's if Quinn's back, next year!

I heard it from one of the great coaches that I played for in college...(and this coach is regarded as a great coach)...he said, "I can't win without you guys!"

That holds true with all programs, including ND.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I agree......further I think that is part of New England's woes.

Ya..he's definitely the brain behind the game! And NE is, kind of, hurting without him!

[Primetime536]

Ya..he's definitely the brain behind the game! And NE is, kind of, hurting without him!
well maybe a little, but NE offense is just fine, its the D im worried about.

Parcells gave the newengland patriots that system, the system is now working in college, its the scheme, it could work any where

[Primetime536]

Ya..he's definitely the brain behind the game! And NE is, kind of, hurting without him!
i hope your not saying he was the brain behind the pats

that would have to be scott peholi, and bill B

[Hdshrinker]

i hope your not saying he was the brain behind the pats

that would have to be scott peholi, and bill B


They aren't the same team without him...of course there are some other variables as well...lost another coach...injuries....but he made an impact

[Primetime536]

They aren't the same team without him...of course there are some other variables as well...lost another coach...injuries....but he made an impact
yah, but still the pats will be just fine, that talent that depth, they have to be favorites

[ThEgReAtOnE]

well maybe a little, but NE offense is just fine, its the D im worried about.

Parcells gave the newengland patriots that system, the system is now working in college, its the scheme, it could work any where

It's not a very hard scheme, of Bill's, to pick-up. He runs the ball...when he can't, he runs deep outs....or tight end posts. Weis does the same thing, but he puts a different aspect into the mix.....it's called "screen city"! Watch how many screens he runs. Then on the next play he runs off the opposite tackle...and next he runs a deep out to the opposite side, using the pa/naked bootleg! Just watch, when ND plays Tennessee! He'll do that, probably 7 or 8 times....and he'll run, at least, 3 or 4 screens.

You don't see Dallas or New England doing that!

I think Weis would throw a certain spice into the philosophy at NE, so they're not as potent! The defense, of NE, is depleted due to injuries! It's hard to have quality depth in the league!

[Primetime536]

It's not a very hard scheme, of Bill's, to pick-up. He runs the ball...when he can't, he runs deep outs....or tight end posts. Weis does the same thing, but he puts a different aspect into the mix.....it's called "screen city"! Watch how many screens he runs. Then on the next play he runs off the opposite tackle...and next he runs a deep out to the opposite side, using the pa/naked bootleg! Just watch, when ND plays Tennessee! He'll do that, probably 7 or 8 times....and he'll run, at least, 3 or 4 screens.

You don't see Dallas or New England doing that!

I think Weis would throw a certain spice into the philosophy at NE, so they're not as potent! The defense, of NE, is depleted due to injuries! It's hard to have quality depth in the league!
its a similar offence, weiss has evolved and Bill P has altered his some, but its the base thats the same.

Ha ND runs alot of screens and alot of deep corners and post, wow so you mean the same thing NE does

[ThEgReAtOnE]

its a similar offence, weiss has evolved and Bill P has altered his some, but its the base thats the same.

Ha ND runs alot of screens and alot of deep corners and post, wow so you mean the same thing NE does


No...I mean alot of teams do that!...College and pro....they just don't have the athletes to make the play a success!


Yes, the base always stays the same! It's football! There are tendencies however...Weis, Parcells and Bill B are no different!

[Primetime536]

No...I mean alot of teams do that!...College and pro....they just don't have the athletes to make the play a success!


Yes, the base always stays the same! It's football! There are tendencies however...Weis, Parcells and Bill B are no different!
exactly, they run the same style football.

[Lee05]

NOTRE DAME FAN

"Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back."

-In Willingham's first year, the Irish offense was anemic. Notre Dame ranked No. 109 in the nation in scoring. We won games on smoke and mirrors, not well-executed plays. Furthermore, there is a reason NFL teams wanted Weis and not Willingham. It's not because of skin color; it's because Weis considered by most to be an offensive genius, whereas Willingham ran neither the offense or defense on his teams. In fact, he was known as a motivator, yet couldn't get his team "up" to play Boston College in the ninth game of the 2002 season or in the opener against BYU last September.

"Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to."

-Notre Dame was 3.5-point underdogs against Pittsburgh, and the line was more than a touchdown in Michigan's favor in Week 2.

"Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC."

-No, Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is proving that Notre Dame CAN succeed on the football field without relinquishing its academic and conduct standards. He took the 80th best offense in the country last year and turned it into a top-10 offense, as the Irish are averaging 38 points per game. What makes this even more astounding is the players in Weis' system. Every single starter on the Irish offense was on the team last year, but Willingham failed to develop their skills.

"The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.
Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense."

-This is the best case under which to indict Willingham. He failed miserably in developing potential. Junior Jeff Samardzija is second in the country this year with 11 touchdown receptions. Last year, he was behind the following on the Irish depth chart: Maurice Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Matt Shelton, Carlyle Holiday, and Chase Anastasio. Who? Exactly. Willingham and offensive coordinator Bill Diedrick (now an unpaid consultant with the Calgary Stampeders) were so inept at evaluating talent that they allowed one of the best receivers in the country to waste two years of eligibility, as Samardzija caught just 24 passes and no touchdowns total in limited action over two years. Brady Quinn went from 50-percent-completion-percentage bust to Heisman-hopeful and future NFL star in just seven games under Weis. Willingham and Diedrick nearly ruined both Samardzija and Quinn's chances at the NFL. Only thanks to a good decision by University President Fr. John Jenkins and the Board of Trustees did these class acts get the coaching they deserved.

"In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams - all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43."

-True, but the Irish failed to score an offensive touchdown until the third game of the season. Once again, smoke and mirrors. When a true test came against Southern California later that season, Willingham showed exactly where he would lead the Irish in a fight against the best team in the country - to a 31-point loss. Asked about the three consecutive 31-point victories his Trojans had over us, Pete Carroll said it best after the epic Oct. 15 game in Notre Dame: "Yeah - I think those days are over."

"Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal."

-You prove yourself to be completely ignorant as to how the story got out with this line. Here's the deal: An NFL.com writer, who also happened to graduate from the University of Michigan, wrote an unsubstantiated, uncorroborated story that said "several" NFL teams were calling Notre Dame asking about a potential buy-out clause. Adam Schefter never called Weis, never called his agent, and never called anyone from the University. Athletic Director Kevin White and associate Athletic Director John Heisler had the foresight to realize how such a story could cripple recruiting (another subject I'll touch on later). They initiated talks with Weis and signed the extension to help the program and minimize recruiting damage. This didn't happen under Willingham because not a single team from the NFL expressed interest in buying out his contract. Thus far, Weis has filled 19 of 25 available spots in the recruiting class for next year. He got his top two quarterbacks and his top running back recruit. He's waiting on a few offensive linemen and speedy defenders. Rumors about him going to the NFL do not help his cause. If you think Weis floated the story, you need to accuse him of lying. In his press conference he said that he thought it was an unnecessary distraction and didn't want to deal with it. In regards to your attacks on Weis personally, I will bring up another line...

"If the New York Giants or any other NFL team decides it wants Weis as its coach, there's no amount of money that is going to stand in the way of that getting done. Only Weis can stop that deal by saying he'd prefer to remain a college coach."

-Weis has done just that. Making an unsupported claim that he floated the NFL rumors demeans the man and insults his character. Since December 12, he has shown one characteristic above all - to be true to his word. He said the turnaround wouldn't take as long as the media expected, and he proved himself right. He said he would bring new life into the program, and he has. He promised a dying boy a pass right, and he delivered. He said he came here for his family and to coach Notre Dame through his 11-year-old son's college days, and I have every reason to believe him.

"Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind."

-Last year, Samardzija was hardly used. "Mature" and "experienced" don't apply. "Underutilized" and "underdeveloped" do. The same goes for standout tight end Anthony Fasano. I don't understand how you can dedicate a whole column to branding a University as racist without knowing all the facts. Don't you understand the reason students here like me get so riled up when you say this is because how much we believe in virtues of equality and rightness. Racism smacks in the face of such virtues, and I certainly believe I am be above that. My sheer hatred for racism makes my anger even more when you accuse my university of such actions. Am I racist for supporting his firing? Do I extol the virtues of the Old South because I thought a man was a poor football coach? Am I a burden to society because I think I could better run a football team than Tyrone Willingham but not than Charlie Weis?

"Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it."

-Sir, you ignore facts, insult a great man, and displayed a lack of integrity that the man you demean would never. If you don't understand how despicable such an action is, then you need to do some soul-searching. Charlie Weis is a public figure, and so are you, so both are open for criticism. The only difference is that if we were all were like him, truth would abound. If we were all like you, truth would play second-fiddle to headlines and hatred.

[KT2000]

I liked Tyrone Willingham and thought he deserved a little more time; however, his approach to recruiting did not work very well at ND. Also, Willingham didn't have nearly every NFL team calling up ND and asking about his contract buyout.

Weis has three Super Bowl rings, so I can understand why ND would feel confident giving him the restructure this early. I don't believe the Irish are as good as their record/stats indicate this year because their schedule has been very weak so far aside from USC.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

exactly, they run the same style football.

...exactly, they all have tendencies - based on the same gameplan, but their play-calling is somewhat different. again the kind of play calling they utilize is done at alot of places.

weis spices his play-calling up, knowing he can succeed in college, with a certain lack of accountibility and knowledge. he utilizes his tight end very well, an dchecks off deep on timing routes...a semi-system Quinn had the advantage to learn about - his freshman and sophmore years - under willingham. it seems Quinn has finally come into his own.

bill b and NE are more passive. they control the game clock and utilize several different packages, rolled into one. they're not flashy, but they execute flawlessly. they utilize deep outs, rarely, and 5/10 yard outs, mainly, they also break down the defensive coverages using alot of underneath throws to bring safties up. they're very unpredictible.

parcells runs the ball....if he has success with it...he runs it all day long. if not he utilizes his tight end, first, then checks off receivers on timing routes running deep outs. he's done this everywhere he's gone. if he has a qb who can make the deep outside throws, he's got a chance against anyone. most qb's, however, don't ever pick up outside throws on timing routes....especially deep...or mid/level. the speed and knowledge of the NFL is much greater, today, so it's only getting harder.

I never had the opportunity of playing against a Parcells led team, when I played in the NFL, but that was a major concern of alot of coaches - in regards to the qb's....can they make the "deep out" throws utilizing TIMING ROUTES and BALL PLACEMENT? Most can't, that's why you see all these weird schemes.

And lets not get into the semi-check-off system of the "West Coast Offense"! Geesz! Brings back, unfortunate, memories! ;)

[Favpack]

1) Willingham was let go early - but he was essentially a sub-500 coach after going 8-0. He was not a good recruiter at ND - period.

2) Weis was locked up because the NFL was calling. No one was calling Tyrone - period.

This will blow over and Weis will build a top 10 program at ND. Willingham might possibly build a 500 team at Washington.

Now - look at Marvin Lewis - head coach of the Bengals - coach of the year easily - he was well over 5 years late in getting a head coaching gig - and has turned around the worst team. Why was he so late in getting an offer? Because 95% of all owners in the NFL don't want an African American head coach. That's worth talking about - but, not ND.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

1) Willingham was let go early - but he was essentially a sub-500 coach after going 8-0. He was not a good recruiter at ND - period.

2) Weis was locked up because the NFL was calling. No one was calling Tyrone - period.

This will blow over and Weis will build a top 10 program at ND. Willingham might possibly build a 500 team at Washington.

Now - look at Marvin Lewis - head coach of the Bengals - coach of the year easily - he was well over 5 years late in getting a head coaching gig - and has turned around the worst team. Why was he so late in getting an offer? Because 95% of all owners in the NFL don't want an African American head coach. That's worth talking about - but, not ND.

Agree on some of the subjects...except the part about Willingham not recieving offers! On his move to Notre Dame he recieved, continous calls from the Arizona Cardinals....not to be head coach, but he did receive the calls!

Also....
We know what Willingham accomplished in his first year...but what, truly, has Weis accomplished as a Head College football coach? Willingham had been Pac-10 Coach of the Year, twice, as the HEAD COACH at Stanford, before ND called. Weis won 3 rings, in the NFL, but not as HEAD COACH.

I want to see what HIS recruiting and HIS athletes do, before I offer him a 10 year 40 million dollar contract! Right now, he's having great success with a Heisman darkhorse - in Quinn, that Willingham recruited and coached for 2 years!

And this "securing his rights" crap is insulting! It seems only, die-hard, ND fans would agree with it! The rest of us can smell the sh** 4,000 miles away!

I like ND, always have, always will...but either they're wrong..or Weis is the craftiest salesman of all time!"...cus he sold the hell out of himself, in just 8 games. Hell, if I ever play pro ball again...I want Weis for my agent!!!!! ;)

[lonny23]

I have several thoughts on this:

Weis is far more accomplished at a higher level.

Tyrone was let go too soon. The guy before him got 5 years and wasn't any better.

Weis got an extension too soon.

I don't blame Whitlock for complaining even though it's an apples and oranges argument.

I've never thought of Whitlock being a guy to always cry foul and racism. I thought Ralph Wiley was a lot worse. So is Stephen A. Smith.

[BuffFan2005]

Weis is a great coach, I am a huge Notre Dame fan and he has proved to be a great coach so far. Im not so sure that Notre Dame shouldve made that huge deal. They dont know if he can pull it off in the long run. Willingham was very successful his first few years. Look now :( GO IRISH!

[FootballJunkie]

Weis is a great coach, I am a huge Notre Dame fan and he has proved to be a great coach so far. Im not so sure that Notre Dame shouldve made that huge deal. They dont know if he can pull it off in the long run. Willingham was very successful his first few years. Look now :( GO IRISH!

Weiss may in deed be a great coach, but 1st year to 1st year Willingham matches up well. If Weiss continues to point ND in the right direction then this is a good deal. If Weiss follows the same path Willingham did then???? We will see what happens.

[Lee05]

Weiss may in deed be a great coach, but 1st year to 1st year Willingham matches up well. If Weiss continues to point ND in the right direction then this is a good deal. If Weiss follows the same path Willingham did then???? We will see what happens.

how much did they lose to USC by with willingham? how many offensive touchdowns did they have their first 3 games under willingham? how did they lose to BYU and boston college under such a "stellar" coach? why were they ranked 109 in offense under willingham?

weis has them firing on all cylinders right now, in a year or two i can see them being top 5. ask any notre dame fan about willinghams first season and they'll say it was amazing how he ended up with that record considering how much they did not accomplish on the field. just ask brady quinn who's the better coach, under weis he's now a legitimate heisman contender next year.

let's see, under weiss brady quinn has 3 more td than all of last year under willingham, 6 less int, 11% better completion rate, has accumulated 100 less yards already than he got ALL of last season. that is a breakout season, and who can it be attributed too? Weiss.

as far as willinghams recruiting, yeah it was good. it's too bad he couldn't do anything with them though. case in point Jeff Samardzija, 2nd in college with 11 td receptions. he was 5th on JUST the irish roster in td's under willingham.

say whatever you want about willingham, he can recruit blah blah he's just as good a coach. weiss has 4 super bowl rings, willingham has...zero. do you know how many kids are going to want to go to ND to play under a coach with that much success and ND's academics? weiss's recruiting will be crazy good, better than willinghams without a doubt. considering it's his first year at ND and they lose to USC on the last play of the game, that speaks volumes about his ability. this is weiss's club now, and he will make them a legitimate top 5 team.


the fact that someone turned this into a race issue is ******** imo. it should have never even gone to that level. am i going to cry because i'm white and some black guy that was way better than me took my spot on the team? no. so some writer for espn shouldn't ***** and moan about a coach that was not accomplishing getting the axe for a coach with 4 super bowl rings. honestly, that is RIDICULOUS.

[FootballJunkie]

how much did they lose to USC by with willingham? how many offensive touchdowns did they have their first 3 games under willingham? how did they lose to BYU and boston college under such a "stellar" coach? why were they ranked 109 in offense under willingham?

weis has them firing on all cylinders right now, in a year or two i can see them being top 5. ask any notre dame fan about willinghams first season and they'll say it was amazing how he ended up with that record considering how much they did not accomplish on the field. just ask brady quinn who's the better coach, under weis he's now a legitimate heisman contender next year

What was Willinghams first year record?? 10 wins including a win over FSU in Tallahasee. Lost to USC,BC and bowl game. Weiss already has 2 losses has not played Tennesee yet which is no guranteed win and we will see what happens in a bowl game. Weiss may indeed be great but first year to first year...Why does one merit 10 year extension and not the other. Just interesting :confused:


Look at what they have done. Beat Pitt,Michigan,Washington,Purdue, and BYU. Only one of those teams has a winning record!! I am just not ready to give him the key to South Bend just yet. But seems others are now lets see what his second year hold and will the ND fans still be on this bandwagon. this seems familiar. Same thing happened about 3 years ago :rolleyes:

[Lee05]

probably because in those ten wins they looked far less impressive than they do now with two losses(one to usc which shouldn't even count, willingham never got within 20 points of usc, and another to MSU in ot). do nd fans and alumni really want to see an ND team whose offense is nonexistant?

i agree the deal was a little hasty, but to people saying they're even on the same level as far as coaching is concerned is a little out of it. a good college coach can not just go into the nfl and dominate which people think willingham could do and weiss already proved he could do. steve spurrier anyone?

honestly, the stats speak for themselves. if ND had held onto that game vs USC there'd be no question in anyone's minds right now. instead the db choked(a position they aren't very deep in) against the top receiver in the country. did anyone actually expect them to be winning that game with 1 minute remaining? give credit where credit is due and stop trying to rain on people's parade(not directed at you fballjunkie, just in general)

fact of the matter is, willingham was not producing. weiss is. he's a highly respected member of the nd community, and had already mentioned he wanted to coach the irish until he retired. of course they showed preference but it wasn't because coach willingham was black, it was because charlie was charlie. he has a lot of ties to the irish and they have faith in him to do what it takes to get nd football rolling. if he starts sucking, then ND will go down in flames with him, but throwing around what ifs and calling racism is just childish.

[FootballJunkie]

probably because in those ten wins they looked far less impressive than they do now with two losses(one to usc which shouldn't even count, willingham never got within 20 points of usc, and another to MSU in ot). do nd fans and alumni really want to see an ND team whose offense is nonexistant?

i agree the deal was a little hasty, but to people saying they're even on the same level as far as coaching is concerned is a little out of it. a good college coach can not just go into the nfl and dominate which people think willingham could do and weiss already proved he could do. steve spurrier anyone?

honestly, the stats speak for themselves. if ND had held onto that game vs USC there'd be no question in anyone's minds right now. instead the db choked(a position they aren't very deep in) against the top receiver in the country. did anyone actually expect them to be winning that game with 1 minute remaining? give credit where credit is due and stop trying to rain on people's parade


I will agree Weiss is a very good NFL Coach. College we will see. My only question is has he done enough in his first year to merit a 10yr deal?? I will give weiss credit for winning the games he should have won but lets face it if he had not beat the teams he has beaten everyone that is praising him now would be calling for his head.

What will everyone say if he loses to a 3-3 Tennesee team this saturday??

Year 2 will be more telling than year one.
10 year extension after 5-2 start is kind of unheard of don't you think??

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I will agree Weiss is a very good NFL Coach. College we will see. My only question is has he done enough in his first year to merit a 10yr deal?? I will give weiss credit for winning the games he should have won but lets face it if he had not beat the teams he has beaten everyone that is praising him now would be calling for his head.

What will everyone say if he loses to a 3-3 Tennesee team this saturday??

Year 2 will be more telling than year one.
10 year extension after 5-2 start is kind of unheard of don't you think??


I have to agree with you, here, junkie! And something else that's more telling.....Weis inherited a much better football program, than Willingham! Quinn is a darkhorse for the Heisman and many will put in the Top 5 of the 2006 or 2007 NFL Draft! And trust me, he didn't just become a darkhorse, all of the sudden - when Weis got here, there were many talking about him as a candidate coming into this season!

I say Weis is doing a great job with Willingham's players! And they're only gonna get better!

[Hdshrinker]

I have to agree with you, here, junkie! And something else that's more telling.....Weis inherited a much better football program, than Willingham! Quinn is a darkhorse for the Heisman and many will put in the Top 5 of the 2006 or 2007 NFL Draft! And trust me, he didn't just become a darkhorse, all of the sudden - when Weis got here, there were many talking about him as a candidate coming into this season!

I say Weis is doing a great job with Willingham's players! And they're only gonna get better!


How's Willingham doing now?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

How's Willingham doing now?

I don't think the great Lombardi could do any better with Washington, at this point! They're horrible!

He's taken over a much worse team, in Washington, than at Stanford or ND!

[FootballJunkie]

How's Willingham doing now?

Did you expect Willingham to do any better than he is doing?? He inherited a 1-9 team with zero depth and even less confidence. Not even the most die-hard Washington fan would expect a title this year. I think he is a good coach, not great, we will see in the coming years if he can turn this ship around. One thing is for sure..he won't be getting a 10 yr extension. :D

[Hdshrinker]

I don't think the great Lombardi could do any better with Washington, at this point! They're horrible!

He's taken over a much worse team, in Washington, than at Stanford or ND!


I havent followed him so I wasn't being facetious...but from what you are saying...not good....



btw, junkie...you don't have to always win a title to be doing well.....you expect it at some point but for a one year coach, improvement is all that is necessary...if possible.

[FootballJunkie]

I havent followed him so I wasn't being facetious...but from what you are saying...not good....



btw, junkie...you don't have to always win a title to be doing well.....you expect it at some point but for a one year coach, improvement is all that is necessary...if possible.

Very true Shrinker in reality Washington fans would probably be happy with a .500 season considering where they have been past few years. This will definately test Willingham's recruiting and coaching abilities. I don't envy him at all. On that same note. If Weis loses 3 or 4 games next year I won't envy him either. Notre Dame starts the year at Georgia Tech then Penn St.,Michigan, at Michigan St. end the year at USC. With UCLA in the middle!! Could be great could also get UGLY

[jtk1519]

ESPN's Ivan Maisel says pretty much the same thing I did. This has nothing to do with black or white... it has everything green...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=maisel_ivan&id=2211259

[jtk1519]

ThEgReAtOnE, the hypocrisy in some of your statements is quite overwhelming. You are quick to dump all this praise on Willingham for what he did his first year while rushing to put an asterisk next to Weis' accomplishments his first year because he is now winning with players that Willingham recruited. Well, let me ask you this... Was Willingham some how recruiting for ND wile coaching at Stanford? If not, that means Willingham had such a great first year with players recruited by another coach, but something tells me you wont be giving Bob Davie credit for what Willingham did that first year. However, you are trying to give Willingham credit for what Weis has done his first year. Interesting

[FootballJunkie]

Junkie, the hypocrisy in some of your statements is quite overwhelming. You are quick to dump all this praise on Willingham for what he did his first year while rushing to put an asterisk next to Weis' accomplishments his first year because he is now winning with players that Willingham recruited. Well, let me ask you this... Was Willingham some how recruiting for ND wile coaching at Stanford? If not, that means Willingham had such a great first year with players recruited by another coach, but something tells me you wont be giving Bob Davie credit for what Willingham did that first year. However, you are trying to give Willingham credit for what Weis has done his first year. Interesting

You have me mixed up with someone else. I did not say anything about winning with someone elses recruits. Go back and re-read all the post.

Make sure you are correct before trying to critique my post.

[jtk1519]

You have me mixed up with someone else. I did not say anything about winning with someone elses recruits. Go back and re-read all the post.

Make sure you are correct before trying to critique my post.

You are correct. ThEgReAtOnE was the target of my reply. Don't ask me how I got that mixed up.

[Hdshrinker]

ESPN's Ivan Maisel says pretty much the same thing I did. This has nothing to do with black or white... it has everything green...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=maisel_ivan&id=2211259


I wonder if it's a matter of locking down a good coach b4 the NFL gives him a head coaching offer as well?

[FootballJunkie]

Here is a different take on it!

[QUOTE]Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back.

Sit down before reading the next couple of sentences, because what I'm about to tell you will shock you.


Charlie Weis has not proven that he's the second coming of Joe Paterno, or Jimmy Johnson, or Pete Carroll, or even Bob Stoops. Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to.

Notre Dame has beaten a mediocre Michigan team, a Dave Wannstedt-coached Pittsburgh team that is .500 only because the Big East is terrible, the third- or fourth-best team in the Mountain West Conference (BYU), a bad Purdue squad, and a Washington club with one victory (vs. Idaho).

Please don't tell the CIA I told you this -- this information is classified top secret -- but the combined record of Weis' victims is 17-24.

I know, I know. You turn on the TV, pick up the newspaper or click on the Internet, and you're led to believe that Notre Dame, under the ingenious direction of the "Great Weis Hope," is undefeated, having hammered USC, Texas and Virginia Tech all in the same weekend.

Sadly, it's not true. Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC. Buddy Teevens (Stanford) and Karl Dorrell (UCLA) put the same thing on their résumés last year. But they're still waiting on their 10-year, $30 million-$40 million contracts.

In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams -- all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43.[QUOTE]



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/051101 (http://)

[Lee05]

you just quoted the exact same article on the first page, how is that a different take?

[Hdshrinker]

Here is a different take on it!

[QUOTE]Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back.

Sit down before reading the next couple of sentences, because what I'm about to tell you will shock you.


Charlie Weis has not proven that he's the second coming of Joe Paterno, or Jimmy Johnson, or Pete Carroll, or even Bob Stoops. Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to.

Notre Dame has beaten a mediocre Michigan team, a Dave Wannstedt-coached Pittsburgh team that is .500 only because the Big East is terrible, the third- or fourth-best team in the Mountain West Conference (BYU), a bad Purdue squad, and a Washington club with one victory (vs. Idaho).

Please don't tell the CIA I told you this -- this information is classified top secret -- but the combined record of Weis' victims is 17-24.

I know, I know. You turn on the TV, pick up the newspaper or click on the Internet, and you're led to believe that Notre Dame, under the ingenious direction of the "Great Weis Hope," is undefeated, having hammered USC, Texas and Virginia Tech all in the same weekend.

Sadly, it's not true. Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC. Buddy Teevens (Stanford) and Karl Dorrell (UCLA) put the same thing on their résumés last year. But they're still waiting on their 10-year, $30 million-$40 million contracts.

In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams -- all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43.[QUOTE]



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/051101 (http://)



The problem with guys like this is that they once again just look at the stats. They leave out the intangibles. To play the #1 team in the nation to a standstill and almost beat them...that's an accomplishment for a program that was digging out from under the bottom.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

ThEgReAtOnE, the hypocrisy in some of your statements is quite overwhelming. You are quick to dump all this praise on Willingham for what he did his first year while rushing to put an asterisk next to Weis' accomplishments his first year because he is now winning with players that Willingham recruited. Well, let me ask you this... Was Willingham some how recruiting for ND wile coaching at Stanford? If not, that means Willingham had such a great first year with players recruited by another coach, but something tells me you wont be giving Bob Davie credit for what Willingham did that first year. However, you are trying to give Willingham credit for what Weis has done his first year. Interesting

Bob Davie had 5 years to recruit and play an entire class, while Willingham had only 3 years.

Willingham was successful with Davie's ex-team, however Willingham had a far worse team, athletically, than Weis has inherited from Willingham.

No hypocrisy...I'm simply saying it was more impressive to do what Willingham did with Davie's team, then it is for Weis to do with Willingham's team, of which a heisman darkhorse is the starting QB!

[Hdshrinker]

Bob Davie had 5 years to recruit and play an entire class, while Willingham had only 3 years.

Willingham was successful with Davie's ex-team, however Willingham had a far worse team, athletically, than Weis has inherited from Willingham.

No hypocrisy...I'm simply saying it was more impressive to do what Willingham did with Davie's team, then it is for Weis to do with Willingham's team, of which a heisman darkhorse is the starting QB!


I don't see the new Weiss deal as racial or even wrong to be honest. I think he's a better coach than Willingham. I DO see not giving Willingham the same 5 years Davie had as wrong, perhaps even a racial thing. Then again, maybe there are things not known to the public and / or the press.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

We'll see if Weis is a good recruiter, we'll see if he wins the big games, we'll see if he's worth that 10 yr/40 Mil. One things for sure, Willingham is in the same "fixer-up" position he was in when he got to ND, at Washington. Lets just hope the school has what it takes to honor his contract, and give him the years neccessary to turn the program around....unlike before!