Who's The Better QB???

[gobuffs04]

out of...vince young, marcus vick, and matt leinart...who do you think is the best all around qb of the 3??? i personally think vince young...he can dominate a football game :eek:

[jtk1519]

I'm a big stat nut so here is how they stack up in that respect...

Vince Young

Rushing - 103 carries for 725 yards and 8 TDs

Passing - 64% of passes completed for 1835 yards, 16 TDs to 8 INTs... 163.65 passer rating

Total - 2560 total yards gained (8.7 yards per play) and 24 total TDs scored

Matt Leinart

Rushing - 29 carries for 32 yards and 3 TDs

Passing - 65% of passes completed for 2512 yards, 19 TDs to 6 INTs... 166.94 passer rating

Total - 2544 yards gained (8.8 yards per play) and 22 TDs scored

Marcus Vick

Rushing - 84 carries for 319 yards and 3 TDs

Passing - 69% of passes completed for 1534 yards, 11 TDs to 5 INTs... 167.19 passer rating

Total - 1853 yards gained (7.6 yards per play) and 14 total TDs scored

If production is the sole criteria, Vince is the best based on the fact that he accounts for more yards and scores more TDs than the other two.

I personally think Vince's stats are the most impressive simply because all we have heard is that Vince can't throw the ball. Over and over again like a broken record. Can he win a game with his arm? Is he a running QB? Now, Vince is one of the nation's most efficient passers and he leads one of the most nation's most potent and balanced offenses. Vince is on pace to throw for right at 3000 yards and 26 TDs this year. In the eyes of the ignorant mob that kept saying VY couldn’t throw, that is like Leinart running for 1000 yards this season.

Now, does that make Vince the best? That is a question that can never be answered. As much as the Texas receivers have stepped up this year, I do have to wonder what kind of numbers Vince could put up with USC's receivers who are a step or two up from Texas' receivers. I also wonder if Marcus Vick could direct an offense that needed to score more like USC's because of their average defense. You have to remember that Virginia Tech's offense only ranks #51 in the nation, but it doesn’t need to be great because they have a great defense. Could Marcus put up bigger numbers if he didn’t have that defense? Could Leinart put up his numbers if he wasn’t surrounded by one of the greatest supporting casts in all of college football? The big knock on him is that he's a product of the system. That he looks good because all the talent around him makes him look good. Is that true?

Just one more interesting statistic to consider when comparing these QBs... their competition.

The best defense USC has seen was from Oregon who ranks #53 of 117 teams in the nation. The average ranking of all of USC's opponents is 90th in the nation. USC has played 0 teams with a defense than ranks in the top 25.

The best defense Texas has seen was from Ohio State who ranks #3 in the nation. The average ranking of all of Texas' opponents is 49th in the nation. Texas has played 3 teams with a defense that ranks in the top 25.

The best defense Virginia Tech has seen was from Boston College who ranks #7 in the nation. The average ranking of all of VT's opponents is 40th in the nation. VT has played 3 teams with a defense that ranks in the top 25.

Those statistics are important because they show that Vince and Lil' Mexico have put up their numbers against much, much tougher defenses than Leinart has seen.

[Hdshrinker]

Much tougher defenses than Leinart??? Notre Dame alone is tougher than any opponent Texas has........


When you are playing little brother you can put up big brother stats....

[westlake]

Much tougher defenses than Leinart??? Notre Dame alone is tougher than any opponent Texas has........


When you are playing little brother you can put up big brother stats....


It would be awsome if you could limit Hating to threads that are about Hating.

[ktchamp97]

Much tougher defenses than Leinart??? Notre Dame alone is tougher than any opponent Texas has........


When you are playing little brother you can put up big brother stats....

Notre Dame is 96th in the nation in total defense.

In fact, let's compare USC's opponents vs. Texas opponents in terms of Total Defense...

USC:
Hawaii - 104th in Total Defense
Arkansas - 76th in Total Defense
Oregon - 53rd in Total Defense
Arizona State - tied for 106th in Total Defense
Arizona - 86th in Total Defense
Notre Dame - 96th in Total Defense
Washington - 102nd in Total Defense
Washington State - tied for 106th in Total Defense

Best Opposing Defense: Oregon - 53
Average Ranking of Opposing Defenses: 91.1 :o

Texas:
U. La-La - 84th in Total Defense
Ohio State - 13th in Total Defense
Rice - 114th in Total Defense
Missouri - 55th in Total Defense
Oklahoma - 15th in Total Defense
Colorado - 29th in Total Defense
Texas Tech - 24th in Total Defense
Oklahoma State - 94th in Total Defense

Best Opposing Defense: Ohio State - 15
Average Ranking of Opposing Defenses: 53.5 :eek:

Texas' average opponent has a defense rated 37 places higher than USC's. That, my friend, is not even close. 5 of UT's 8 opponents rank higher than Oregon, the best defense USC has faced and 7 of UT's 8 opponents have a better defense than Notre Dame...including Oklahoma State.

Keep on hatin'.


Edit: My bad jtk, I didn't even read the part where you already pointed out some of those things, lol. Oh well, my post just supplements what you correctly stated in the first place.

[Rerun]

Notre Dame is 96th in the nation in total defense.

In fact, let's compare USC's opponents vs. Texas opponents in terms of Total Defense...

USC:
Hawaii - 104th in Total Defense
Arkansas - 76th in Total Defense
Oregon - 53rd in Total Defense
Arizona State - tied for 106th in Total Defense
Arizona - 86th in Total Defense
Notre Dame - 96th in Total Defense
Washington - 102nd in Total Defense
Washington State - tied for 106th in Total Defense

Best Opposing Defense: Oregon - 53
Average Ranking of Opposing Defenses: 91.1 :o

Texas:
U. La-La - 84th in Total Defense
Ohio State - 13th in Total Defense
Rice - 114th in Total Defense
Missouri - 55th in Total Defense
Oklahoma - 15th in Total Defense
Colorado - 29th in Total Defense
Texas Tech - 24th in Total Defense
Oklahoma State - 94th in Total Defense

Best Opposing Defense: Ohio State - 15
Average Ranking of Opposing Defenses: 53.5 :eek:

Texas' average opponent has a defense rated 37 places higher than USC's. That, my friend, is not even close. 5 of UT's 8 opponents rank higher than Oregon, the bgest defense USC has faced and 7 of UT's 8 opponents have a better defense than Notre Dame...including Oklahoma State.

Keep on hatin'.


DAMN! Hd Just got OWNED. AGAIN.

Give it up geezer..UT is the team to beat

[dragons08]

DAMN! Hd Just got OWNED. AGAIN.

Give it up geezer..UT is the team to beat
he also got PWNED!

[Hdshrinker]

DAMN! Hd Just got OWNED. AGAIN.

Give it up geezer..UT is the team to beat


It's all about who you play......that's where the stats add up lad....try watching the games rather than looking at the stats.........poor blinded souls.....

[Rerun]

Did you not just see the post that gave the cold hard facts with stats above? Man, some haters cant stand a true winner.

[wide-e-wide]

In hdshrinker's world...the #96 defense is better than the #13 defense.
Now who is the poor blinded soul?

Did you even read what ktchamp97 posted?
Dude it ain't even close...

Once again...

OWNED!

[Rerun]

but then, a&m ummm would win because they are ummm umm better than umm vince and umm the umm aggies umm are true umm team umm , never mind, a&m sucks

that will be his next respnse, if not word for word, then pretty close.

[jtk1519]

Here is something else to consider when looking at Leinart's numbers...

Hawaii - ranks 91 in pass defense

Arkansas - ranks 62 in pass defense

Oregon - ranks 81 in pass defense

Arizona State - ranks 104 in pass defense

Arizona - ranks 38 in pass defense

Notre Dame - ranks 114 out of 117 in pass defense (makes you wonder how Leinart had such a bad game against them)

Washington - ranks 109 in pass defense

Washington State - ranks 96 in pass defense

[FootballJunkie]

Here is something else to consider when looking at Leinart's numbers...

Hawaii - ranks 91 in pass defense

Arkansas - ranks 62 in pass defense

Oregon - ranks 81 in pass defense

Arizona State - ranks 104 in pass defense

Arizona - ranks 38 in pass defense

Notre Dame - ranks 114 out of 117 in pass defense (makes you wonder how Leinart had such a bad game against them)

Washington - ranks 109 in pass defense

Washington State - ranks 96 in pass defense


Again taking numbers and making them say what you want. Statistically Arizona's pass defense is better than Notre Dame's. OK lets look deeper Notre Dame has given up more yards passing than Arizona because Notre Dame has played teams that pass more. Thus giving up more yards. All that stat means is Notre Dame has given up more yards. OK and!!! If I play 6 teams that run and another team plays 6 teams that pass...obviously the other team is going to give up more passing yards and therefore their passing defense numbers will look worse!! Statistics can and do say whatever you want them too. Navy has the number 2 rushing offense in the country. Now look deeper and see who they have played. Stats say they run better than UT,USC and VTech but do they really have a better run offense??? NO they play less than stellar opponents and on top of that their offense runs 85% of the time. If NAVY was to play UT and UT held them to 200 yards under their average then all of a sudden UT's run defense takes a major jump but in reality it was NAVY that was just stopped. Statistics won't bear out WHO you stopped just that you stopped them.

[jtk1519]

Again taking numbers and making them say what you want. Statistically Arizona's pass defense is better than Notre Dame's. OK lets look deeper Notre Dame has given up more yards passing than Arizona because Notre Dame has played teams that pass more. Thus giving up more yards. All that stat means is Notre Dame has given up more yards. OK and!!! If I play 6 teams that run and another team plays 6 teams that pass...obviously the other team is going to give up more passing yards and therefore their passing defense numbers will look worse!!

Once again, you are incorrect. Arizona has played more of the nation's top passing teams. Arizona has played 5 teams that rank in the top 25 in the nation in passing... Notre Dame has played 4 such teams. Averaged out, Arizona's opponents average 31.5 in the nation... Notre Dame's average out to rank 31.7. So, Arizona and ND are almost dead even in the passing teams that they have played, but Arizona's pass defense ranks 38 in the nation while ND's ranks 114.

[FootballJunkie]

Once again, you are incorrect. Arizona has played more of the nation's top passing teams. Arizona has played 5 teams that rank in the top 25 in the nation in passing... Notre Dame has played 4 such teams. Averaged out, Arizona's opponents average 31.5 in the nation... Notre Dame's average out to rank 31.7. So, Arizona and ND are almost dead even in the passing teams that they have played, but Arizona's pass defense ranks 38 in the nation while ND's ranks 114.


Again you are missing the point!! in order to evaluate those numbers you have to go in and see who those numbers were put up against. My point is that all that stat means is they have given up more yards and that would mean exactly what?? Nothing!! because Notre Dame is 5-2 and Arizona is 2-6

Example Hawaii is #3 in pass offense
USC is number #4

Hawaii has 346 passing attempts
USC only 293 attemps

Hawaii has more yard thus a higher ranking. Does hawaii have a better pass offense or is just higher numbers because they throw more. Who did they put those numbers up against??? Also did USC not beat them 63-17. Stats are good but are they telling the whole story??

[jtk1519]

Again you are missing the point!! in order to evaluate those numbers you have to go in and see who those numbers were put up against. My point is that all that stat means is they have given up more yards and that would mean exactly what?? Nothing!! because Notre Dame is 5-2 and Arizona is 2-6

Example Hawaii is #3 in pass offense
USC is number #4

Hawaii has 346 passing attempts
USC only 293 attemps

Hawaii has more yard thus a higher ranking. Does hawaii have a better pass offense or is just higher numbers because they throw more. Who did they put those numbers up against??? Also did USC not beat them 63-17. Stats are good but are they telling the whole story??

Arizona and ND have two common opponents... USC and Purdue.

Arizona held USC and Purdue to 55% completions for 527 yards, 2 TDs and 2 INTs

ND held USC and Purdue to 56% completions for 651 yards, 2 TDs and 3 INTs

Against the toughest opponents, both pass defenses are at the very least, even. Regardless, there is no denying the fact that Matt Leinart has not seen anywhere near the caliber of defense that Young and Vick have.

[Texasfrog]

Lets see a common opponent with a top Pac-10 team (UCLA) against Oklahoma.

UCLA:

Drew Olson - 28-38-314 yds- 3 tds
M. Drew - 15 car - 69 yds- 1 tds

22 1st Downs against Oklahoma
397 total yds against Oklahoma
5.7 yds per play.

Texas:

Vincent Young - 14-27-241 yds - 3tds
J. Charles - 9-116 yds - 1tds

20 1st downs against Oklahoma
444 total yds against Oklahoma
6.3 yds per play

Lets see... the Pac-10 is suppose to be this super offensive Conference and UCLA is suppose to a top #10. Looks like Texas put up better offensive stats and defensive stats against Oklahoma and V. Young put up some good numbers.

PS. The only reason Texas didnt put up bigger numbers was because they game was over mid-way through the 3rd quarter. With UCLA it wasnt over until mid-way through the 4th QT. Texas could of had about another 100 yds of offense if they wanted it.

[FootballJunkie]

Arizona and ND have two common opponents... USC and Purdue.

Arizona held USC and Purdue to 55% completions for 527 yards, 2 TDs and 2 INTs

ND held USC and Purdue to 56% completions for 651 yards, 2 TDs and 3 INTs

Against the toughest opponents, both pass defenses are at the very least, even. Regardless, there is no denying the fact that Matt Leinart has not seen anywhere near the caliber of defense that Young and Vick have.


OK you are making my point for me thanks. Arizona gave up less yards so their pass defense numbers look better on paper but they lost both games!! ND won against Purdue big and were in position to beat USC so what do those stats really mean??? Now I ask again did the stats tell the whole story?? What the stats don't say is that both Purdue and USC were behind most of the game to Notre Dame so they had to pass to get back in the game especially PURDUE. They passed more, increasing the number of yards Notre Dame gave up there by making Notre Dame's passing defense numbers on paper look worse. In reality it is not that Arizona is better only they gave up less yards. So to say Notre Dame's pass defense in not that good by looking only at the numbers is misleading especially if you don't look at the circumstances in which they gave up the yards!!

[jtk1519]

So to say Notre Dame's pass defense in not that good by looking only at the numbers is misleading especially if you don't look at the circumstances in which they gave up the yards!!

To say that Notre Dame's pass defense is anything but bad is nothing short of silly. You don't need numbers to tell you that... just watch them. They suck.

[FootballJunkie]

To say that Notre Dame's pass defense is anything but bad is nothing short of silly. You don't need numbers to tell you that... just watch them. They suck.

You saying NOTRE DAME sucks would be your opinion. Like if I said you were a clown would be my OPINION correct. Means absolutely nothing right??

[jtk1519]

You saying NOTRE DAME sucks would be your opinion. Like if I said you were a clown would be my OPINION correct. Means absolutely nothing right??

This is true, but all the statistical evidence we have available to us confirms what I have been saying all along and that is that Notre Dame's defense is suspect and their pass defense is among the worst in college football. Now, you counter with the "stats don't tell the whole story" line, and while that may be true, the only way to in fact tell the whole story would be to have every single team play every single team under the exact same conditions. Obviously, that is nowhere near possible so we have to use common sense, judgment and the resources we have available to us to make an educated guesstimation. Is it 100% accurate? Of course not. Is it pretty damn close? Of course it is. Is Notre Dame's pass defense really worse than 113 other teams? Probably not, but can we use that data to infer that ND's pass defense ranks among the bottom 25% in college football? Of course we can and that is the point of all of this. To take the term "114th best" at face value is missing the point. That is nothing more than a reference point for which you are to base your final judgment.

However, we can debate the most microscopic of details until we are blue in the face but that will never change the fact that USC and Matt Leinart have yet to face a good defense. On that point, there can simply be no debate.

[GoOwls]

This is true, but all the statistical evidence we have available to us confirms what I have been saying all along and that is that Notre Dame's defense is suspect and their pass defense is among the worst in college football. Now, you counter with the "stats don't tell the whole story" line, and while that may be true, the only way to in fact tell the whole story would be to have every single team play every single team under the exact same conditions. Obviously, that is nowhere near possible so we have to use common sense, judgment and the resources we have available to us to make an educated guesstimation. Is it 100% accurate? Of course not. Is it pretty damn close? Of course it is. Is Notre Dame's pass defense really worse than 113 other teams? Probably not, but can we use that data to infer that ND's pass defense ranks among the bottom 25% in college football? Of course we can and that is the point of all of this. To take the term "114th best" at face value is missing the point. That is nothing more than a reference point for which you are to base your final judgment.

However, we can debate the most microscopic of details until we are blue in the face but that will never change the fact that USC and Matt Leinart have yet to face a good defense. On that point, there can simply be no debate.

Man, I like you more and more each day. Keep hammerin' 'em.

[FootballJunkie]

This is true, but all the statistical evidence we have available to us confirms what I have been saying all along and that is that Notre Dame's defense is suspect and their pass defense is among the worst in college football. Now, you counter with the "stats don't tell the whole story" line, and while that may be true, the only way to in fact tell the whole story would be to have every single team play every single team under the exact same conditions. Obviously, that is nowhere near possible so we have to use common sense, judgment and the resources we have available to us to make an educated guesstimation. Is it 100% accurate? Of course not. Is it pretty damn close? Of course it is. Is Notre Dame's pass defense really worse than 113 other teams? Probably not, but can we use that data to infer that ND's pass defense ranks among the bottom 25% in college football? Of course we can and that is the point of all of this. To take the term "114th best" at face value is missing the point. That is nothing more than a reference point for which you are to base your final judgment.


Well in order to ascertain the truth of just how bad or good Notre Dame's pass defense is all we have to do is:

A... check every game Notre Dame has played and determine how many yards passing they have given up.

B...After all those yards are determined go back and look at the play by play and see when those yards were attained...in other words were those yards thrown by the other team while they were ahead or trailing.

C...Once you have done that you will clearly see that 80% of the yards thrown against the so-called bad Notre Dame secondary were thrown by teams who were behind at the time and had no choice but to pass in order to get back in the game. I know you have seen it before. A team is behind by 2 or three scores time is running out so they pass every down. Inflates their passing stats but in reality does nothing as far as a victory is concered.

D. If you look at that logic you will clearly see that although Notre Dame's pass defense may on paper look on par with ARIZONA's that in reality they are not. That is what I mean by stats not telling the whole story. Thus Notre Dame at 5-2 and Arizona at 2-6.

So my friend I would say to you again...If you are winning by 2 touchdowns and your opponet throws every down to catch up and accumulates 400 yards in the process but you on the other hand have the lead so you run to keep the clock moving Only acculating 150 yards passing is the other team better passing and do they have a better pass defense?? On paper just using statistics it would look that way but in reality that is not the truth.


Therefore assuming that ND is in the bottom 1/4 of all 1-A schools without further looking into the stats is well...absurd!!

[jtk1519]

FWIW, Notre Dame's two worst games (from a pass defense standpoint) came in their closest games... USC and Michigan State.

It seems like you are trying to argue that ND gives up a lot of yards in junk time. This is true, but then this is true of every other good team. USC has a lot of junk time, as do Texas and Virginia Tech. Those three teams are actually unbeaten and USC and Texas have won most of their games by very large margins meaning the have had tons of junk time... much more than Notre Dame. However, despite all that junk time, USC has a defense that ranks #35 with a pass defense that ranks #75. Texas has a defense that ranks #7 with a pass defense that ranks #14. Are teams just not throwing the ball against Texas and USC? They have a lot of junk time... teams are trying to catch up. Is it possible that USC and Texas just so happen to be playing nothing but running teams while ND's schedule is riddled with the Texas Techs of the world? Or is it more logical to assume that the ND defense just flat isn’t good? The fact is that you can go look at the stats for every team that is 6-2 or better and you will see that most posses much better defenses than ND. Reality is that there is only one team in the nation with a 6-2 record or better that has a worse defense... Wisconsin.

Again, this debate is quite intriguing and it can go on until the second coming, but it simply cannot take away from the original message in this thread and that is that USC and Matt Leinart have yet to face a defense that even remotely compares with the defenses that Texas and Virginia Tech have seen. Even using the most twisted logic and spinning the data better than Al Franken after a presidential debate, you could still never find a way to rank the Notre Dame Defense among the top 50% in the nation. Yes, they have played some games in junk time which allow opponents to artificially inflate their numbers in desperate attempts to come back thereby artificially skewing the defensive statistics of the winning team, but then that is true of almost every successful team. Should we then place an asterisk next to every single defensive statistic? Perhaps we should use the common sense the good Lord gave us and take the statistical data on hand as well as other relative data such as record, margin of victory, etc., and use that to formulate a logical opinion. As I have said before, the actual numbers quoted don't mean a whole lot. As you have said, they don't tell the whole story. However, it isn’t very hard to use those numbers and formulate a general idea of what the story says. You don't have to read every word of Romeo and Juliet to know the two die in the end, and you don't need to examine every single play of the season to know that Notre Dame's defense is not good.

[FootballJunkie]

FWIW, Notre Dame's two worst games (from a pass defense standpoint) came in their closest games... USC and Michigan State.

It seems like you are trying to argue that ND gives up a lot of yards in junk time. This is true, but then this is true of every other good team. USC has a lot of junk time, as do Texas and Virginia Tech. Those three teams are actually unbeaten and USC and Texas have won most of their games by very large margins meaning the have had tons of junk time... much more than Notre Dame. However, despite all that junk time, USC has a defense that ranks #35 with a pass defense that ranks #75. Texas has a defense that ranks #7 with a pass defense that ranks #14. Are teams just not throwing the ball against Texas and USC? They have a lot of junk time... teams are trying to catch up. Is it possible that USC and Texas just so happen to be playing nothing but running teams while ND's schedule is riddled with the Texas Techs of the world? Or is it more logical to assume that the ND defense just flat isn’t good? The fact is that you can go look at the stats for every team that is 6-2 or better and you will see that most posses much better defenses than ND. Reality is that there is only one team in the nation with a 6-2 record or better that has a worse defense... Wisconsin.

Again, this debate is quite intriguing and it can go on until the second coming, but it simply cannot take away from the original message in this thread and that is that USC and Matt Leinart have yet to face a defense that even remotely compares with the defenses that Texas and Virginia Tech have seen. Even using the most twisted logic and spinning the data better than Al Franken after a presidential debate, you could still never find a way to rank the Notre Dame Defense among the top 50% in the nation. Yes, they have played some games in junk time which allow opponents to artificially inflate their numbers in desperate attempts to come back thereby artificially skewing the defensive statistics of the winning team, but then that is true of almost every successful team. Should we then place an asterisk next to every single defensive statistic? Perhaps we should use the common sense the good Lord gave us and take the statistical data on hand as well as other relative data such as record, margin of victory, etc., and use that to formulate a logical opinion. As I have said before, the actual numbers quoted don't mean a whole lot. As you have said, they don't tell the whole story. However, it isn’t very hard to use those numbers and formulate a general idea of what the story says. You don't have to read every word of Romeo and Juliet to know the two die in the end, and you don't need to examine every single play of the season to know that Notre Dame's defense is not good.


I did not even get in this to show that Notre Dame has as good a defense as Texas or Va Tech only to show that their defense is not as bad as the numbers would indicate and that you have to look deeper to see what the stats might not bear out on first glance!!


As for your other part Notre Dame playing passing teams and UT not well that is actually correct. 5 out of 7 opponents Notre Dame has played are currently in the top 50 for passing while UT has played only 2 opponent that are in the top 50 in passing (colorado and TT) so like I said more attemps thrown against you more yards given up makes your defensive numbers look bad. This is all objective by the numbers data. As for everyone being able to see they are not that good. That would be OPINION!!!

By comparison Texas Tech ranked 24th is total pass defense has only played 1 team that is in the top 50 in passing. Therefore there numbers are skewed the opposite of Notre Dame's number's perhaps indicate their defense is better than it is because they don't or have not played teams that pass the ball well. Less attempts against them less yards given up numbers look better.

[Texasfrog]

You saying NOTRE DAME sucks would be your opinion. Like if I said you were a clown would be my OPINION correct. Means absolutely nothing right??


Hey Junk.... you have to really like what Herbstreit said about Va Tech... "they havent proved to anyone they can play away from home."

I guess unless your talking about the 20-16 win at a pitiful NC State. I'm looking at Va Tech weak 4 pt win at a horrible NC state and just ???? :rolleyes:

NC State is barely ranked ahead of Oklahoma St in the overall national poll and Texas blew out Ok St by almost 20pts at Okla St "homecoming."

[wide-e-wide]

Hey Junk.... you have to really like what Herbstreit said about Va Tech... "they havent proved to anyone they can play away from home."

I guess unless your talking about the 20-16 win at a pitiful NC State. I'm looking at Va Tech weak 4 pt win at a horrible NC state and just ???? :rolleyes:

NC State is barely ranked ahead of Oklahoma St in the overall national poll and Texas blew out Ok St by almost 20pts at Okla St "homecoming."


As much as I want to agree with you Frog...you can't go around quoting that asshat Herbsteit....He also picked Ohio St. to beat Texas by 10...remember that?

[FootballJunkie]

Hey Junk.... you have to really like what Herbstreit said about Va Tech... "they havent proved to anyone they can play away from home."

I guess unless your talking about the 20-16 win at a pitiful NC State. I'm looking at Va Tech weak 4 pt win at a horrible NC state and just ???? :rolleyes:

NC State is barely ranked ahead of Oklahoma St in the overall national poll and Texas blew out Ok St by almost 20pts at Okla St "homecoming."

Other times I would respond to you in a different manner but today I will just say OK..and?? :rolleyes:

[Hdshrinker]

Hey Junk.... you have to really like what Herbstreit said about Va Tech... "they havent proved to anyone they can play away from home."

I guess unless your talking about the 20-16 win at a pitiful NC State. I'm looking at Va Tech weak 4 pt win at a horrible NC state and just ???? :rolleyes:

NC State is barely ranked ahead of Oklahoma St in the overall national poll and Texas blew out Ok St by almost 20pts at Okla St "homecoming."



Besides the obvious crowd where does proving you can play away from home come into the equation. Football is football......home...away.....it's still football.
USC 30 games in a row....you think home/away mattered? I guess when Texas get's their head handed to them it will be because USC played at home?

[dragonfootballfan]

Besides the obvious crowd where does proving you can play away from home come into the equation. Football is football......home...away.....it's still football.
USC 30 games in a row....you think home/away mattered? I guess when Texas get's their head handed to them it will be because USC played at home?
Homefield advantage is more than just a crowd. You get out of a routine when you are on the road. You are not familiar with your souroundings. Sometimes there is a time zone change and may or may not be a jet-lag factor. There is a reason that odds makers factor in homefield advantage, because home teams have a higher winning percentage than road teams. It is a proven fact that it is more likely that you will get a win at home than it is on the road. The road can be intimidating as well. Before Texas played Ohio State at the 'Shoe' at night, they had never lost at home at night. I guess that Texas's 3 point win over Ohio State is not near as impressive as Va Tech's 4 point victory at NC state.

[GoOwls]

You saying NOTRE DAME sucks would be your opinion. Like if I said you were a clown would be my OPINION correct. Means absolutely nothing right??

You're right......coming from you it DOES mean nothing. :D

[FootballJunkie]

You're right......coming from you it DOES mean nothing. :D

That is the same way I feel about you and YOUR opinions...so we agree on something.

[Evil47]

Its not just the QB and Passing Defense but also the recievers...

USC Top Recievers

Dwayne Jarrett 6'5 200 Pound Mike Williams replacement with 57 Receptions and 863 Yards and 13 TD's.
Steve Smith 39 Receptions 743 Yards 4 TD's. And dont forget about the next LT(Reggie Bush) with his excellent hands.

UT Top Recievers

Pittman 22 Receptions 587 Yards and 5 TD's. The young sophmore is there best WR aside from there SR WR Brian Carter and SR TE David Thomas.

Conclusion is USC has a good set of recievers and UT doesnt have the best but Vince passes to most of his revievers.

[dragonfootballfan]

to me in this season the title of best quarterback can go to two different players. Either Vince Young or Matt Leinart.

Leinart is the best QB that USC could have. He fits their system perfectly and distributes the ball to the right playmaker at the right time.

Young is the best QB for the University of Texas offensive system. Young is blessed with talented runningbacks and one of the best offensive lines in football (maybe better than the Texans?). Young uses the weapons that he has effectively.

for the which quarterback would you rather have question, I think that it would be unanimous for Leinart on USC and Young on Texas. Neither would succeed as much if they switched teams, especially Leinart.

The best quarterback this year for me is up in the air right now with maybe Young a little ahead of Leinart, but I will not make that decision because I think that will probably be just a homer choice. If I eliminate the homer factor they are probably even.

[Reaganrattler07]

I haven't read this thread so I dunno if it's already been said but Leinart fits the USC system, Young fits the whorns, and Marcus fits the Tech system. One may not have many touchdowns because of the fact that they may have a running back/reciver they hand the ball off to. Just cause they don't throw it in or run it in themselves doesn't mean they're not a good quarterback.

[jtk1519]

As for your other part Notre Dame playing passing teams and UT not well that is actually correct. 5 out of 7 opponents Notre Dame has played are currently in the top 50 for passing while UT has played only 2 opponent that are in the top 50 in passing (colorado and TT) so like I said more attemps thrown against you more yards given up makes your defensive numbers look bad. This is all objective by the numbers data. As for everyone being able to see they are not that good. That would be OPINION!!!

The Texas defense has seen 281 passes thrown by their opponents. The Notre Dame defense has seen 282 passes thrown by their opponents. Notre Dame has seen 1 more pass attempt than Texas, yet they have given up 739 more passing yards.

Another myth debunked.

[HOOKEM]

It's all about who you play......that's where the stats add up lad....try watching the games rather than looking at the stats.........poor blinded souls.....
Dude get over your qoute above already. Everytime someone throws hard numbers back in your face you spew the same thing.

Guess you are Jimmy the geek er greek.

[wide-e-wide]

I'm sick of this crap...

[jtk1519]

The one thing that you can say of these three QBs that you will never find in any stats sheet... Young and Leinart have never flipped off fans on national TV, been convicted of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, taken forearm shots at opposing coach and neither Young or Leinart have ever been charged with statutory **** of a 15 year old.

Young and Leinart give back to their respective communities… Vick does community service. While such things have little impact on an athletes ability to throw a ball, they speak volumes about their character. I do think that plays a role in determining who the best QB is.

[DirtyHarry01]

Some people automatically trot out the statistics to prove their point. The real statistic will be the final score at the BCS championship game.

[FootballJunkie]

The one thing that you can say of these three QBs that you will never find in any stats sheet... Young and Leinart have never flipped off fans on national TV, been convicted of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, taken forearm shots at opposing coach and neither Young or Leinart have ever been charged with statutory **** of a 15 year old.

Young and Leinart give back to their respective communities… Vick does community service. While such things have little impact on an athletes ability to throw a ball, they speak volumes about their character. I do think that plays a role in determining who the best QB is.

Wow can't talk about his football prowess so go to personal attacks. I imagine he is the only guy in the history of the game to flip off a crowd :rolleyes: He was definatly wrong but no more wrong than the many others who have done that and far worse. I suppose you know Vince Young or Matt Leinart personally so you can testify to the greatness of THEIR character :confused:

[Reaganrattler07]

Wow can't talk about his football prowess so go to personal attacks. I imagine he is the only guy in the history of the game to flip off a crowd :rolleyes: He was definatly wrong but no more wrong than the many others who have done that and far worse. I suppose you know Vince Young or Matt Leinart personally so you can testify to the greatness of THEIR character :confused:

Are you kidding?! I heard the Church was gonna go ahead and make Vince a Saint! :rolleyes:

Marcus grew up in a rough neighborhood.....and the West Virginia fans are hooligans. I remember some guy on TV said this and po'd a lot of people "They throw pennies cause they can't afford nickels".

[jtk1519]

There are hundreds of athletes in college football that come from horrible places. Some don't have fathers. Some don't have mothers. Some have neither. They don't all go around getting 15 year old girls drunk and have sex with them.

[FootballJunkie]

There are hundreds of athletes in college football that come from horrible places. Some don't have fathers. Some don't have mothers. Some have neither. They don't all go around getting 15 year old girls drunk and have sex with them.

I see you want to bring that back up. If you do at least get it right. Charges dismissed for having sex with the girl. What you fail to mention there were 3 other players there and it was a party. Girls admitted to lying about their age. If you are going to tell the story tell the whole story.

[wide-e-wide]

Left out the part where Mike threw down a couple grand to make the whole thing go away...tell the whole story jtk...geeeesh...

[FootballJunkie]

At least he can carry on an interview which is more than can be said for a few UT players!! :rolleyes:

[wide-e-wide]

I don't know about that...
Vick is at about a 6.3 "know'm sayin'" average per interview...
Just slightly below both Vince and Jamaal...

[Reaganrattler07]

FootballJunkie, they wouldn't know anything about going to parties and having girls there.

The girl told Marcus that she was much older than what she actually was. It was a party as well. And she probably didn't look as young as she was.

[FootballJunkie]

FootballJunkie, they wouldn't know anything about going to parties and having girls there.

The girl told Marcus that she was much older than what she actually was. It was a party as well. And she probably didn't look as young as she was.

Yea I know they tried this argument in another thread.

[FootballJunkie]

I don't know about that...
Vick is at about a 6.3 "know'm sayin'" average per interview...
Just slightly below both Vince and Jamaal...

Yea I know what your saying but I bet no one on the radio knew what Jamal was saying. :D Wonder if he will graduate :rolleyes:

[Reaganrattler07]

Yea I know they tried this argument in another thread.

You just change the story and leave out significant parts about it.....

[wide-e-wide]

Using the R. Kelly defense doesn't fly either...
It just means instead of being a child molester...
you are someone that is too stupid to make sure a
girl is 18. Either way....he did it.
If it had been one of my daughters...my trial would be going on..
on Court TV right now.

[dada]

Yea I know what your saying but I bet no one on the radio knew what Jamal was saying. :D Wonder if he will graduate :rolleyes:
Probably will and by the time he's 24 have more money than you could dream of.....KNOW WHAT I'M SAYIN?

[Reaganrattler07]

Using the R. Kelly defense doesn't fly either...
It just means instead of being a child molester...
you are someone that is too stupid to make sure a
girl is 18. Either way....he did it.
If it had been one of my daughters...my trial would be going on..
on Court TV right now.

So what is he going to do? Ask her if she's 18 or not and I'm sure she (who wanted to get with Marcus in the first place) would be the good girl I'm sure she was and tell him her real age? Get real wide. She wanted to get with marcus and she lied to do it, there was no way of finding out whether she was 18 or not. I don't think your trial would make it to CourtTV wide...

[FootballJunkie]

Probably will and by the time he's 24 have more money than you could dream of.....KNOW WHAT I'M SAYIN?

Doesn't affect me one way or the other. I will continue living. Again would not even be on this subject if certain other people did not stray from the topic.

[FootballJunkie]

Using the R. Kelly defense doesn't fly either...
It just means instead of being a child molester...
you are someone that is too stupid to make sure a
girl is 18. Either way....he did it.
If it had been one of my daughters...my trial would be going on..
on Court TV right now.


Actually he did not do it. All he did do was give her something to drink at a party with 3 other players. Which part of english do you not understand.

[dada]

Doesn't affect me one way or the other. I will continue living. Again would not even be on this subject if certain other people did not stray from the topic.
Well it's sad what people resort to when they dont like a kid.

[FootballJunkie]

Well it's sad what people resort to when they dont like a kid.

I don't like him or dislike him in reality I could give 2 cents about him at all. I do find it interesting that some people will poke at personal issues of players from another team besides UT then get offended when a UT player is brought up. Kind of funny :rolleyes:

[wide-e-wide]

So what is he going to do? Ask her if she's 18 or not and I'm sure she (who wanted to get with Marcus in the first place) would be the good girl I'm sure she was and tell him her real age? Get real wide. She wanted to get with marcus and she lied to do it, there was no way of finding out whether she was 18 or not. I don't think your trial would make it to CourtTV wide...

No way of finding out if she was lying....dude you are showing your age.

Lyrics from an actual R. Kelly song...

"show me some ID ...before I get knee deep"

If I have the last name Vick...and I am going to be a millionaire soon...if she doesn't look 40.....I'm gonna need some ID ma'am...

And if he did that to one of my daughters?.........oh yeah Skins...my murder trial would make it on Court TV.

[dada]

I don't like him or dislike him in reality I could give 2 cents about him at all. I do find it interesting that some people will poke at personal issues of players from another team besides UT then get offended when a UT player is brought up. Kind of funny :rolleyes:
"Know what I'm sayin" is not a sign of no education or ignorance....it's just something the kids say. In the older days it was "groovy, ya dig...Narly...etc" I hate sterotypes :mad:

[FootballJunkie]

No way of finding out if she was lying....dude you are showing your age.

Lyrics from an actual R. Kelly song...

"show me some ID ...before I get knee deep"

If I have the last name Vick...and I am going to be a millionaire soon...if she doesn't look 40.....I'm gonna need some ID ma'am...

And if he did that to one of my daughters?.........oh yeah Skins...my murder trial would make it on Court TV.

So what it's in a song so that makes it the way it is. I guess you carded every female you dated when you were 19 :rolleyes: I mean at least say something that YOU would have done. Quoting R Kelly songs to make a point..my,my,my!!!

[wide-e-wide]

"Know what I'm sayin" is not a sign of no education or ignorance....it's just something the kids say. In the older days it was "groovy, ya dig...Narly...etc" I hate sterotypes :mad:


I agree dada...but if you give a 3 minute interview...and say "know'm sayin'" 10+ times...odds are ...we don't know what the hell you are saying. I hate stereotypes too....but what I hate more than that is....an athlete that perpetuates a stereotype.

[FootballJunkie]

"Know what I'm sayin" is not a sign of no education or ignorance....it's just something the kids say. In the older days it was "groovy, ya dig...Narly...etc" I hate sterotypes :mad:


I never said groovy or narly...what exactly does that mean. :confused:

[wide-e-wide]

So what it's in a song so that makes it the way it is. I guess you carded every female you dated when you were 19 :rolleyes: I mean at least say something that YOU would have done. Quoting R Kelly songs to make a point..my,my,my!!!


Quoting R. Kelly was to point out the irony.........R. Kelly had those lyrics...yet was still charged with sexually assaulting a 15 year old girl.

And when I was 19...I wasn't interested in girls that were 15...hell I didn't even talk to girls that were 19....

And if I was a big-time QB with a big-time future...and a brother already in the league with millions....Your damn right I would ask to see some ID....that's just common sense dude.

[dada]

So what it's in a song so that makes it the way it is. I guess you carded every female you dated when you were 19 :rolleyes: I mean at least say something that YOU would have done. Quoting R Kelly songs to make a point..my,my,my!!!
What Wide is saying is that when you are the BIG MAN ON CAMPUS...your brother is in the NFL.....you have a target on your back....so in this case..with Mike being sued by a groupie for giving her herpes...that he will be a target too. So YES he should ask. Having a baby by a future Millionaire is a 17 year career for most women these days.

[dada]

I agree dada...but if you give a 3 minute interview...and say "know'm sayin'" 10+ times...odds are ...we don't know what the hell you are saying. I hate stereotypes too....but what I hate more than that is....an athlete that perpetuates a stereotype.
At the time this kid was in High School....not a top notch school....so give him time....he will be alright.

[FootballJunkie]

What Wide is saying is that when you are the BIG MAN ON CAMPUS...your brother is in the NFL.....you have a target on your back....so in this case..with Mike being sued by a groupie for giving her herpes...that he will be a target too. So YES he should ask. Having a baby by a future Millionaire is a 17 year career for most women these days.

So let me get this right. At 19 everyone of you would have been thinking about checking an ID at a party at midnight to 1am. OK :rolleyes:

[wide-e-wide]

So let me get this right. At 19 everyone of you would have been thinking about checking an ID at a party at midnight to 1am. OK :rolleyes:


If I am about to become a millionaire.....ummmm...Yes...I sure would...
and if she didn't like it...well that just narrows the field down a bit.

[FootballJunkie]

If I am about to become a millionaire.....ummmm...Yes...I sure would...
and if she didn't like it...well that just narrows the field down a bit.


Real easy to say what you will do if you are not there isn't it. :cool:

[dada]

So let me get this right. At 19 everyone of you would have been thinking about checking an ID at a party at midnight to 1am. OK :rolleyes:
Put it like this...I was a young man with a steady 9-5 and benefits....very rare were I came from and my mom would always tell me to be careful, because I was a 'Prize" so I can imagine what guys with MILLIONS go through. When you're in the SPOTLIGHT...ALWAYS better safe than sorry.

[Hdshrinker]

Real easy to say what you will do if you are not there isn't it. :cool:


Some organizations provide mandatory education to the athletes regarding social issues just like this.

[dada]

Some organizations provide mandatory education to the athletes regarding social issues just like this.
We had a CLASS on this in the Army....I know the NFL gives one.

[Hdshrinker]

We had a CLASS on this in the Army....I know the NFL gives one.



Sometimes the testosterone over rides good sense.... I see it here all the time. That and alcohol.....he probably had plenty of both going.

[FootballJunkie]

We had a CLASS on this in the Army....I know the NFL gives one.

The army gives classes on everything...how many people pay attention?? Drug Abuse, Sexual Harassment, Finance. Those classes mean about as much to 19 year old athelet away from home in college as it does to a 19 year old private away from home in the Army.

[dada]

The army gives classes on everything...how many people pay attention?? Drug Abuse, Sexual Harassment, Finance. Those classes mean about as much to 19 year old athelet away from home in college as it does to a 19 year old private away from home in the Army.
NOW you're making excuses for him....the difference between sucessful people and idiots....is that the sucessful people actually LISTENED when someone who's been where they're trying to go gave classess.

[Hdshrinker]

The army gives classes on everything...how many people pay attention?? Drug Abuse, Sexual Harassment, Finance. Those classes mean about as much to 19 year old athelet away from home in college as it does to a 19 year old private away from home in the Army.


I listened

[dada]

I listened
MAN!....I was hopin you were an idiot! :)

[Hdshrinker]

MAN!....I was hopin you were an idiot! :)


2nd Div Indianhead...you better be listening.........

[dada]

2nd Div Indianhead...you better be listening.........
I WAS the 2ID....I had the two biggest patches in the Army...the Indian Head and the Iron Horse


2nd to None
'Voice of the Warrior'

[FootballJunkie]

2nd Div Indianhead...you better be listening.........


Been there and done that..along with 1st ID,4thID and 10th Mountain.

If they listened I would not have written so many article 15's. 19 is 19 some are more disciplined than others but in the end they are 19. Not an excuse just a fact.

[dada]

2nd Div Indianhead...you better be listening.........
And you're a liar if you tell me you dont know what Dog tastes like...lol

[FootballJunkie]

And you're a liar if you tell me you dont know what Dog tastes like...lol

YEP kulgogi is good :D

[dada]

YEP kulgogi is good :D
I knew someone knew what I was talking about....LOL.

[Hdshrinker]

Been there and done that..along with 1st ID,4thID and 10th Mountain.

If they listened I would not have written so many article 15's. 19 is 19 some are more disciplined than others but in the end they are 19. Not an excuse just a fact.


Some people nothing works....

[BigArab]

My main take on this whole thread is simply: Young has to cut out the stupid silly mistakes before I consider him to be the better QB. His inconsistancy is whats killing my opinion. There will be some games where he delivers a perfect touch pass right into the hands of the receiver and then the next play he drills the ball to a triple covered receiver (sometimes resulting in an INT). Some plays there is nothing there and he turns it into a 40 yard run. Other times, there is a wide open man downfield for the TD and he pulls it down and gets 8 yards. He has definitely VASTLY improved since last year where he was always thinking run first, but bottom line, he has a long way to go. Will he end up being the best QB in the NFL? I think the sky is the limit with him. He just has to get better at his consistentcy or he may see himself playing receiver like Matt Jones. I think, as of right now, the best is Leinhart. He just has intangibles that you don't find in many QBs. Sure, he benefits from a great supporting cast, but you will very seldom see him throw a pass he shouldn't. Lastly, I think we have yet to see the full potential of Vick. That guy just has an electicity about him like his brother and at the same time, he's a better passer. Like Young, the sky is the limit for him.

[GoOwls]

So what it's in a song so that makes it the way it is. I guess you carded every female you dated when you were 19 :rolleyes: I mean at least say something that YOU would have done. Quoting R Kelly songs to make a point..my,my,my!!!

A smart young man had better know the age of any woman he intends to bed. Ever hear of "16 will get you 20"? It's more true that you know, especially if the girls parents are rich or hooked up with special interest groups.

Throughout my youth, every girl I got any form of serious with, was well known to me and I knew her upbringing and the kind of person she was. There were 2 girls I took out on a date who were minors but I didn't know it, and when I found out their real age on that first date, I took them straight home. No way was that worth messing up my future or going to jail and getting a record.

You kids today, in general, are about as stupid as it gets. You don't care who it is as long as you're getting it. It's a roadmap for failure and destruction of lives.

If you think this old man is out of touch, I've raised 6 kids myself and I've lived it. You kids ain't gettin' nothin' over on this old man.

Also, as a mailman for 21 years, I've had hundreds of "my kids" that I got to know personally over the years and I got to see a broad spectrum of lifestyle failures and successes. There are distinct patterns that repeat themselves in the lives of kids who become failures........drugs and promiscuous sex are the main symptoms........bad parents are the main cause. But bad parents or not, you can't excuse the kids for making bad choices. The kids who made the bad choices acted using free will, they knew better, but did wrong anyway.

[FootballJunkie]

A smart young man had better know the age of any woman he intends to bed. Ever hear of "16 will get you 20"? It's more true that you know, especially if the girls parents are rich or hooked up with special interest groups.

Throughout my youth, every girl I got any form of serious with, was well known to me and I knew her upbringing and the kind of person she was. There were 2 girls I took out on a date who were minors but I didn't know it, and when I found out their real age on that first date, I took them straight home. No way was that worth messing up my future or going to jail and getting a record.

You kids today, in general, are about as stupid as it gets. You don't care who it is as long as you're getting it. It's a roadmap for failure and destruction of lives.

If you think this old man is out of touch, I've raised 6 kids myself and I've lived it. You kids ain't gettin' nothin' over on this old man.

Also, as a mailman for 21 years, I've had hundreds of "my kids" that I got to know personally over the years and I got to see a broad spectrum of lifestyle failures and successes. There are distinct patterns that repeat themselves in the lives of kids who become failures........drugs and promiscuous sex are the main symptoms........bad parents are the main cause. But bad parents or not, you can't excuse the kids for making bad choices. The kids who made the bad choices acted using free will, they knew better, but did wrong anyway.

Who is a kid first of all!!! I would imagine I am not a senior citizen such as yourself but I would be willing to bet your paycheck as well as my own that dating in 2005 is nothing like it was in your prime. I have seen my son bring a girl home for me to meet that I could have sworn was a grown woman but only 15 or 16. I will also bet you that on any given night at any club in Austin that has an 18 and up age limit that their are girls and guys in those clubs that are under that age limit. I would also venture to say that as much as alot of you would like us to believe that you would be the perfect 19 year old and card every girl you are potentially about to have sex with that is NOT the truth. I won't and don't make any excuses but I can and do see how it can happen. Fake ID's or just plain old being untruthful it happens and for you people to say it could not happen to you is just a bunch of crap and you know it!!!