A good summation of my generation's disenchantment with the GOP

[jtk1519]

No more appropriate words to describe my feelings have previously graced my computer screen...

Dudley's disenchantment with the GOP isn't unique among young, devoutly Christian voters. According to a September 2007 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 15 percent of white evangelicals between 18 and 29, a group traditionally a shoo-in for the GOP, say they no longer identify with the Republican Party. Older evangelicals are also questioning their traditional allegiance, but not at the same rate.

But, Howard Dean, don't count your chickens quite yet. College-age and 20-something Christians may be leaving the GOP, but only 5 percent of young evangelicals have joined the Democrats, according to the Pew survey. The other 10 percent are wandering the political wilderness, somewhere between "independent" and "unaffiliated."

Shane Claiborne, a Philadelphia Christian activist and author of "Jesus for President: Politics for Ordinary Radicals," has a different name for these folks: "political misfits."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004406277_evangvote11m.html

I don't agree with many of my peers who are succumbing to the minty fresh rhetoric of the Obamessiah, but there is no question that the GOP has abandoned me and many like me.

[slorch]

and the Bird told me that noone else thinks like I do...;)

actually, and I know JTK will second this, I am too old to be in that group, at 37.:D

[jtk1519]

and the Bird told me that noone else thinks like I do...;)

actually, and I know JTK will second this, I am too old to be in that group, at 37.:D

I can confirm that you are old.

[Favpack]

The problem with GOP is lack of leadership. I guarantee you Shane Claiborn would follow Reagan -- but Bush, hmm, not so much. McCain? Please - the man is not a visionary leader.

The 20 something group is liberal in some areas, conservative in others, and is not loyal to any trend or party.

I think the really interesting block in this campaign will be all the Hispanics that voted for Hillary. Who do they support?

[jtk1519]

The problem with GOP is lack of leadership. I guarantee you Shane Claiborn would follow Reagan -- but Bush, hmm, not so much. McCain? Please - the man is not a visionary leader.

The 20 something group is liberal in some areas, conservative in others, and is not loyal to any trend or party.

I think the really interesting block in this campaign will be all the Hispanics that voted for Hillary. Who do they support?

Word. There is no leadership. Even W provided a unifying force in 2000 and still in 2004. There is no leadership in the party (as evidenced by McCain winning the nomination). There is nothing to unify the people and the new generations are not as bound to the parties as their parents and grandparents.

[DragonWatcher]

The problem with GOP is lack of leadership. I guarantee you Shane Claiborn would follow Reagan -- but Bush, hmm, not so much. McCain? Please - the man is not a visionary leader.

The 20 something group is liberal in some areas, conservative in others, and is not loyal to any trend or party.

I think the really interesting block in this campaign will be all the Hispanics that voted for Hillary. Who do they support?

With the GOP's stance on immigration I don't think its going to be too strong for McCain, especially after he now calls calls legislation on illegal immigration that he introduced a huge mistake

[Firebird]

I am not thrilled with either party. It doesn't surprise me that Evangelical Christians are ditching the GOP. The GOP pays a bit of lip service during campaign season to the interests of Christian voters and then proceeds to do what it always does, which is represent the interests of big business and place the Evangelical agenda on the back-burner.

Additionally, the younger generation of Evangelicals takes a much broader view of what Christians should be interested. On Christian campuses across the nation the young pay at least as much attention, probably more, to issues like poverty and good stewardship of the environment as they do to fighting gay marriage. Abortion remains high on the list as well. I predict that parties will continue to fracture in this country, as the old party lines don't reflect the new reality.

[HUM398]

With the GOP's stance on immigration I don't think its going to be too strong for McCain, especially after he now calls calls legislation on illegal immigration that he introduced a huge mistake

Well it was....

I hate all three of them, but at this point its looking better and better for McCain...which is unfortunate for the GOP.

I personally abhor the Socialist tone that this election has.

I was basically forced to accept that McCain would be the GOP candidate...and apparently its a widely known fact that Obama is the democratic party nominee, in the opinions of a few people.;)

[Firebird]

With the GOP's stance on immigration I don't think its going to be too strong for McCain, especially after he now calls calls legislation on illegal immigration that he introduced a huge mistake

Current Republicans are determined to completely destroy any and all of the goodwill that "W" built up in the Mexican-American community. It was one of the things that he really did well, and it is truly a shame. The marriage between Mexican-Americans and Dems is truly an uncomfortable one. The Democratic party of South Texas bears little resemblence to the national party and there is much common ground between them and "conservatives" especiall on social issues.

[HUM398]

I am not thrilled with either party. It doesn't surprise me that Evangelical Christians are ditching the GOP. The GOP pays a bit of lip service during campaign season to the interests of Christian voters and then proceeds to do what it always does, which is represent the interests of big business and place the Evangelical agenda on the back-burner.

Additionally, the younger generation of Evangelicals takes a much broader view of what Christians should be interested. On Christian campuses across the nation the young pay at least as much attention, probably more, to issues like poverty and good stewardship of the environment as they do to fighting gay marriage. Abortion remains high on the list as well. I predict that parties will continue to fracture in this country, as the old party lines don't reflect the new reality.

Was that a hard prediction?

[HUM398]

Current Republicans are determined to completely destroy any and all of the goodwill that "W" built up in the Mexican-American community. It was one of the things that he really did well, and it is truly a shame. The marriage between Mexican-Americans and Dems is truly an uncomfortable one. The Democratic party of South Texas bears little resemblence to the national party and there is much common ground between them and "conservatives" especiall on social issues.

....

What relationship would that be? I don't want a marriage between our president and a certain ethnic group...

I want a secure border dammit...and i want this illegal immigration problem solved.

[Firebird]

Was that a hard prediction?

Eh...we'll see. The two party system has withstood plenty of attacks. A former President couldn't get a third party off the ground (TR). The war over segregation and Civil Rights threatened to undermine the system, but it survived that and eventually the Dixiecrats just became Republicans. Most recently, Mr. Ross Perot seemed to have a lot of wind in his sails and the deep pockets to get one started and we know how that turned out. A lot of people have wanted a third party but it just never seems to happen and hasn't since the foundation of the Republic. I don't know if more parties will emerge, but the disatisfaction with both of them seems to beg etting deeper and deeper.

[Firebird]

....

What relationship would that be? I don't want a marriage between our president and a certain ethnic group...

I want a secure border dammit...and i want this illegal immigration problem solved.


It's about to be, just not how you want it to be solved. BTW, illegal crossings are plummeting since the economy has been tanking.

[jtk1519]

Additionally, the younger generation of Evangelicals takes a much broader view of what Christians should be interested. On Christian campuses across the nation the young pay at least as much attention, probably more, to issues like poverty and good stewardship of the environment as they do to fighting gay marriage. Abortion remains high on the list as well. I predict that parties will continue to fracture in this country, as the old party lines don't reflect the new reality.

You make a great point that goes hand in hand with a fantastic article the Austin American Statesman put out not long ago about the growing movements in the church, especially in cities typically defined as more liberal... Portland, Austin, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. Places where Christians are moving away from the big social, political movements like those led by James Dobson and the late Jerry Falwell, and instead turning their attention and focus to a more local level. Christians and you people now days are moving away from broad issues of abortion, gay rights, etc. and focusing more on the poverty, education and medical care in their own communities. It's a movement I have seen a lot of in Abilene. An interdenominational shift towards local unification in an attempt to better their communities.

I think a lot of Christians are tired of having these unelected, power-hungry "leaders" like Dobson, Falwell, Ted Haggard, etc. "represent" them with absolutely no authority to do so. I think Christians are fed up with that (I know I am) and even more fed up by the lack of practical action being taken at the community level. Frankly, they are embarrassed and are looking for ways to do, quite honestly, what Christians are supposed to be doing. That is the new "religious right" and that is the young and growing party that the GOP has abandoned and the Democrats are repulsed by. The term "Political-misfit" has never been more appropriate.

[jtk1519]

I personally abhor the Socialist tone that this election has.


It's downright scary. If you can get past his cheesy sunshine-pumping, Sean Hannity actually has some good things to say on the subject, but perhaps the best comments came from Fred Thompson on Hannity's radio show the other day. The socialist rhetoric is frightening and perhaps more frightening is the ferocity with which so many are eating it up.

[Firebird]

You make a great point that goes hand in hand with a fantastic article the Austin American Statesman put out not long ago about the growing movements in the church, especially in cities typically defined as more liberal... Portland, Austin, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. Places where Christians are moving away from the big social, political movements like those led by James Dobson and the late Jerry Falwell, and instead turning their attention and focus to a more local level. Christians and you people now days are moving away from broad issues of abortion, gay rights, etc. and focusing more on the poverty, education and medical care in their own communities. It's a movement I have seen a lot of in Abilene. An interdenominational shift towards local unification in an attempt to better their communities.

I think a lot of Christians are tired of having these unelected, power-hungry "leaders" like Dobson, Falwell, Ted Haggard, etc. "represent" them with absolutely no authority to do so. I think Christians are fed up with that (I know I am) and even more fed up by the lack of practical action being taken at the community level. Frankly, they are embarrassed and are looking for ways to do, quite honestly, what Christians are supposed to be doing. That is the new "religious right" and that is the young and growing party that the GOP has abandoned and the Democrats are repulsed by. The term "Political-misfit" has never been more appropriate.

The GOP just doesn't fit what many young people see being taught in the Gospels. It's not that morality and "family values" aren't important, just that there are other issues at least as important which are not addressed by the "Moral Majority" at all. They will never fit in with the hard left but are not going to be part of the old-money GOP and the old Evangelical leaders that they distrust.

I think they will be a viable and important electorate, but never a majority. If a true multi-party system did emerge, they would likely become a group that could help form a coalition government. In truth, they most resemble old-style European Christian Democrats. We could use a group like that in this country.
However, I do wonder if they will ever organize on the political level in that sense, as at least at ACU and other Christian campuses I've experienced, the movement has mostly been disengagement/apathy towards politics and they have directed their attentions elsewhere. The expereince of Dobson/Falwell really just disgusts these folks and they are very wary of getting back into bed with Ceaser.

[t-long20]

....

What relationship would that be? I don't want a marriage between our president and a certain ethnic group...

I want a secure border dammit...and i want this illegal immigration problem solved.

I give that cheap comeback a 3.2 out of 10.

[jtk1519]

The GOP just doesn't fit what many young people see being taught in the Gospels. It's not that morality and "family values" aren't important, just that there are other issues at least as important which are not addressed by the "Moral Majority" at all. They will never fit in with the hard left but are not going to be part of the old-money GOP and the old Evangelical leaders that they distrust.

I think they will be a viable and important electorate, but never a majority. If a true multi-party system did emerge, they would likely become a group that could help form a coalition government. In truth, they most resemble old-style European Christian Democrats. We could use a group like that in this country.
However, I do wonder if they will ever organize on the political level in that sense, as at least at ACU and other Christian campuses I've experienced, the movement has mostly been disengagement/apathy towards politics and they have directed their attentions elsewhere. The expereince of Dobson/Falwell really just disgusts these folks and they are very wary of getting back into bed with Ceaser.

I agree, but I think it will continue to grow and become a large enough electorate to shake things up if the right candidate comes along. I don't think they will ever have the power of the "religious right", but I think that is because most of them don't want that power. This is a group that has grown sick of politics.

That movement I was referring to above is called the "emerging church" or "emerging movement"...

Dr. R. Todd Mangum, Associate Professor of Theology and Dean of Faculty at Biblical Seminary, describes it this way:

“Emergent” is a loosely knit group of people in conversation about and trying experiments in forwarding the ministry of Jesus in new and different ways, as the people of God in a post-Christian context. From there, wide diversity abounds. “Emergents” seem to share one common trait: disillusionment with the organized, institutional church as it has existed through the 20th century (whether fundamentalist, liberal, megachurch, or tall-steeple liturgical). Its strengths: creative, energetic, youthful, authentic, highly relational. Its weaknesses: somewhat cynical, disorganized, sometimes reckless (even in the theological ideas willing to be entertained), immature.


Some would call it more "hippie church", but it's simply a movement away from the almost corporate structure and power the church has taken on and a move back to a more simplistic, Christ oriented message of servitude, equality and compassion. Neither of that major parties embodies any of the ideas put forth by the emerging movement and as I said, if politics continue on as usual, I think you are going to see this movement grow and spread and even spur a non-religious sister movement.

[the_phoenix612]

Well it was....

I hate all three of them, but at this point its looking better and better for McCain...which is unfortunate for the GOP.

I personally abhor the Socialist tone that this election has.

I was basically forced to accept that McCain would be the GOP candidate...and apparently its a widely known fact that Obama is the democratic party nominee, in the opinions of a few people.;)

The thing about the young demographics is that we didn't grow up with the specter of socialism.
We never called people commies as an insult....
The fear and revulsion of socialism just isn't there in the younger generation

[Firebird]

I agree, but I think it will continue to grow and become a large enough electorate to shake things up if the right candidate comes along. I don't think they will ever have the power of the "religious right", but I think that is because most of them don't want that power. This is a group that has grown sick of politics.

That movement I was referring to above is called the "emerging church" or "emerging movement"...



Some would call it more "hippie church", but it's simply a movement away from the almost corporate structure and power the church has taken on and a move back to a more simplistic, Christ oriented message of servitude, equality and compassion. Neither of that major parties embodies any of the ideas put forth by the emerging movement and as I said, if politics continue on as usual, I think you are going to see this movement grow and spread and even spur a non-religious sister movement.

We'll see whether the emerging church has legs or not. It could be the start of a new movement that rocks the Church like the Reformation or the Great Awakening, or it could not. These things happen every now and then. GOing against it is the group's reluctance to organize and have any sort of structure. As many people have commented, it's almost impossible to talk about the emerging/emergent church as a movement at all, given how fractured and diverse it is. It's more appropriate to call it a "mood."

IMHO, if you want to know where the next big splashes in Christianity are going to come from, you want to look away from the U.S. and Europe and towards Latin America, Africa (especially) and SE Asia. A mind-boggling statistic-- although Christianity in China accounts for only 3-4% of the population, that is about 40-60 million people:eek: There are now about 18 million Christians in India. Those numbers are growing.

Asia, Africa, and Latin America--the Global South-- are where the Church is most vibrant and growing. More and more groups will find themselves in the position of the Anglicans-- nothing gets done without the agreement of African and Asian bishops. (On another note, there are now more active members of the church of Christ in Africa than in the U.S.). This is not to mention the rapid proliferation of native denominations, usually heavily influenced by Pentecostalism.

It is going to be a humbling and fascinating thing to watch as the people we once thought of as students take the lead in our churches. They are very devout and faithful while at the same time have some very very different perspectives on things. What will especially be fascinating to watch is how Christianity will cease to be a religion of the powerful (Europe and soon the U.S. will be truly "post-Christian") and becomes instead the faith of the impovershed and disenfranchised. A fact both encouraging and disquieting at once.

[jtk1519]

I think the growing numbers of Christians in China, Mexico, India, etc. go hand-in-hand with what I am saying and could very well support my theory on this becoming a larger movement. This about who are behind what I call "corporate Christianity" (the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, NAE, etc.)... they are all white Americans. I don't want to stereotype, but you don't really see that kind of "movement" from Christians of other nationalities. In fact, you tend to find ideals more common with the emergence movements. Ideals like open and free dialog about faith, community service, servitude, etc. I think as the immigrant population in this country rises, you will see a lot of these ideas become more integrated into American culture.

[HUM398]

I give that cheap comeback a 3.2 out of 10.

It wasn't a comeback... It was a statement.

Why should the president be in bed with any ethnic group?

[t-long20]

It wasn't a comeback... It was a statement.

Why should the president be in bed with any ethnic group?

Who said he was?

[HUM398]

The thing about the young demographics is that we didn't grow up with the specter of socialism.
We never called people commies as an insult....
The fear and revulsion of socialism just isn't there in the younger generation

Guess we should let the younger generation try it out, see if it works for them....:rolleyes:

[HUM398]

Who said he was?

Firebird spoke of a "marriage" between Mexican-Americans and "W"...and how the GOP is messing it up.

I don't want a political office being "married" to anyone...i want him to serve the damn people...and do whats best for the Country as a whole, not a demographic.

[t-long20]

Firebird spoke of a "marriage" between Mexican-Americans and "W"...and how the GOP is messing it up.

I don't want a political office being "married" to anyone...i want him to serve the damn people...and do whats best for the Country as a whole, not a demographic.

I agree. And I also agree with firebirds post.

[Firebird]

Firebird spoke of a "marriage" between Mexican-Americans and "W"...and how the GOP is messing it up.

I don't want a political office being "married" to anyone...i want him to serve the damn people...and do whats best for the Country as a whole, not a demographic.

I actually spoke of a marriage between Mexican-Americans and the Democratic Party. I spoke of goodwill between the Mexican-American community and "W", which the current crop of Republicans has been doing its best to destroy.

Case in point, Tom Tancredo. He came to the valley to speak about the border "wall". Numerous landowners and U.S. citizens voiced the entirely reasonable complaint that the proposed wall would mean that huge chunks of their farms and property would suddenly be in a no-go zone on the other side of the wall, not to mention the devastating environmental impact. In response, he said we should just build the wall around the north of their homes.

[HUM398]

I agree. And I also agree with firebirds post.

You agree with me, yet you agree that the "marriage" was a good thing?

I think Bush was catering to a demographic, and shooting the finger at everyone else.

[HUM398]

I actually spoke of a marriage between Mexican-Americans and the Democratic Party. I spoke of goodwill between the Mexican-American community and "W", which the current crop of Republicans has been doing its best to destroy.

Case in point, Tom Tancredo. He came to the valley to speak about the border "wall". Numerous landowners and U.S. citizens voiced the entirely reasonable complaint that the proposed wall would mean that huge chunks of their farms and property would suddenly be in a no-go zone on the other side of the wall, not to mention the devastating environmental impact. In response, he said we should just build the wall around the north of their homes.

You're right. I misread your post.

But in my opinion, the actual marriage was between Bush and the Mexican-Americans. The Democrats are just picking up the shattered parts of what the GOP is doing by separating themselves form any comprehensive amnesty plan .

[jtk1519]

Drop the "Mexican" off of "Mexican-American" and you are left with "American". That is who I want my political leaders married to. Problem is that no such candidate is running for office.

[Firebird]

You're right. I misread your post.

But in my opinion, the actual marriage was between Bush and the Mexican-Americans. The Democrats are just picking up the shattered parts of what the GOP is doing by separating themselves form any comprehensive amnesty plan .


Just gotta disagree with you there. Mexican-Americans have voted heavily Democratic for ages and only started to swing towards the Republican camp because the mostly liked Bush as governor, because they are not at all anti-war (the highest support for the Iraq war during the runup came from Hispanic men), and of course because he has more moderate views with regards to immigration. The current GOP has staked its political future with the anti-Mexican camp and so the Mexican-Americans are returning to their old party.

[t-long20]

You agree with me, yet you agree that the "marriage" was a good thing?

I think Bush was catering to a demographic, and shooting the finger at everyone else.

I agree with what firebirds post was stating. I don't agree that its ok

[t-long20]

Drop the "Mexican" off of "Mexican-American" and you are left with "American". That is who I want my political leaders married to. Problem is that no such candidate is running for office.

Its ironic isn't it? 300 million people living in the U.S. and these are candidates we get.

[HUM398]

Just gotta disagree with you there. Mexican-Americans have voted heavily Democratic for ages and only started to swing towards the Republican camp because the mostly liked Bush as governor, because they are not at all anti-war (the highest support for the Iraq war during the runup came from Hispanic men), and of course because he has more moderate views with regards to immigration. The current GOP has staked its political future with the anti-Mexican camp and so the Mexican-Americans are returning to their old party.

You are right, but it doesn't discredit the notion that Bush was catering to their "wants" without totally pissing off his party...which he managed to do anyway.

I am not anti-mexican... im anti-illegal immigration, and anti-giving out free **** to people who don't pay taxes.

[HUM398]

Its ironic isn't it? 300 million people living in the U.S. and these are candidates we get.

Its the nature of the beast.

People like Duncan, and Keyes should of gotten more face time...but what do you expect, they don't get great ratings.

[Firebird]

You agree with me, yet you agree that the "marriage" was a good thing?

I think Bush was catering to a demographic, and shooting the finger at everyone else.


Or maybe, just maybe, he realized that fighting about immigration was a losing battle. Maybe he realized that the real threats to our country did not speak Spanish. Maybe he realized that the idea of "securing" 2,000 mile from the "threat" of poor people looking for work was a pipe dream that is never going to happen regardless of how many miles of fence went up, so a much better route would be to figure out how to make what was once illegal a streamilned, controlled, legal process. Maybe he poked around the border and realized that it was going to be damn near impossible to convince the families and people who have lived a certain way for generations, before the U.S. even made it that far south, that all of a sudden they had to change everything. Nah, that couldn't be it.

Funny thing how rabid conservatives get about property rights so long as that property doesn't abut the Rio Grande. Tough luck to those people whose families have tended that patch of dirt since the king of Spain gave it to them.....huh?:rolleyes:

[JMSFan]

Its ironic isn't it? 300 million people living in the U.S. and these are candidates we get.

What? Isnt the greatest candidate the world has ever seen running for president?

[JMSFan]

I agree with what firebirds post was stating. I don't agree that its ok

I dont agree with what Rev. Wright says, but I sat in the pews for 20 years.

[Firebird]

You are right, but it doesn't discredit the notion that Bush was catering to their "wants" without totally pissing off his party...which he managed to do anyway.

I am not anti-mexican... im anti-illegal immigration, and anti-giving out free **** to people who don't pay taxes.

Illegal immigrants pay lots and lots of taxes. The idea that they don't is probably the biggest misconception out there. In fact, they pay so much taxes that leaders of anti-illegal immigration groups want the IRS to start using its info to deport illegals.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/17/more_illegal_immigrants_are_rushing_to_file_taxes/

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/04/15/immigrant.taxes.ap/

In fact, they might very well be keeping social security afloat, because they pay into but draw nothing out. I

[GoOwls]

Its ironic isn't it? 300 million people living in the U.S. and these are candidates we get.

See, what you young guys don't seem to understand it that we get the candidates we get BECAUSE there are 300 million people in America and each of the parties has to put a person out there that will cross enough demographics to be electable.

Therefore, every demographic will be ticked a bit, but you get what you get having to please so many people and having the two-party system.

This system isn't about making you happy...it's about not ticking you off.

This system is about giving you a McCain and an Obama and telling you, "well, this is the best we can do that will make as few of you mad as possible so we can win the election".

The system has NEVER been about you...don't fool yourself...and as the population and media availability grows, it will get even less so.

It's time you young guys came to a few hard realizations of life....stop fooling yourself into thinking you matter...you don't....not to Washington anyway.

[JMSFan]

See, what you young guys don't seem to understand it that we get the candidates we get BECAUSE there are 300 million people in America and each of the parties has to put a person out there that will cross enough demographics to be electable.

Therefore, every demographic will be ticked a bit, but you get what you get having to please so many people and having the two-party system.

This system isn't about making you happy...it's about not ticking you off.

This system is about giving you a McCain and an Obama and telling you, "well, this is the best we can do that will make as few of you mad as possible so we can win the election".

The system has NEVER been about you...don't fool yourself...and as the population and media availability grows, it will get even less so.

It's time you young guys came to a few hard realizations of life....stop fooling yourself into thinking you matter...you don't....not to Washington anyway.

:notworthy Thank you.

[HUM398]

Or maybe, just maybe, he realized that fighting about immigration was a losing battle. Maybe he realized that the real threats to our country did not speak Spanish. Maybe he realized that the idea of "securing" 2,000 mile from the "threat" of poor people looking for work was a pipe dream that is never going to happen regardless of how many miles of fence went up, so a much better route would be to figure out how to make what was once illegal a streamilned, controlled, legal process. Maybe he poked around the border and realized that it was going to be damn near impossible to convince the families and people who have lived a certain way for generations, before the U.S. even made it that far south, that all of a sudden they had to change everything. Nah, that couldn't be it.

Funny thing how rabid conservatives get about property rights so long as that property doesn't abut the Rio Grande. Tough luck to those people whose families have tended that patch of dirt since the king of Spain gave it to them.....huh?:rolleyes:

Maybe, Just maybe...it isn't those speaking spanish that we are worried about. If Mexicans can get into our country undetected, and unstopped...what would stop a group of terrorist from catching a train over here?

I'm not a fan of your..."It looks tough, and improbable...so lets give up" mentality.

[ktCarl]

The thing about the young demographics is that we didn't grow up with the specter of socialism.
We never called people commies as an insult....
The fear and revulsion of socialism just isn't there in the younger generation

That's because the Left has control of much of our higher learning institutions so there is an almost 'sympathetic' view of socialism from those who attend and graduate those institutions.

[KT2000]

Maybe, Just maybe...it isn't those speaking spanish that we are worried about. If Mexicans can get into our country undetected, and unstopped...what would stop a group of terrorist from catching a train over here?

I'm not a fan of your..."It looks tough, and improbable...so lets give up" mentality.

The drug trade is my primary concern with the Mexican border. As far as terrorism goes, the 9/11 hijackers immigrated into the US itself with valid visas. They didn't get in via Mexican or Canadian borders.

[t-long20]

I dont agree with what Rev. Wright says, but I sat in the pews for 20 years.

Wake me up when Obama becomes a racist.

[t-long20]

What? Isnt the greatest candidate the world has ever seen running for president?

Yes! And thank you Bush and the republicans for giving this man a shot.:notworthy

[t-long20]

See, what you young guys don't seem to understand it that we get the candidates we get BECAUSE there are 300 million people in America and each of the parties has to put a person out there that will cross enough demographics to be electable.

Therefore, every demographic will be ticked a bit, but you get what you get having to please so many people and having the two-party system.

This system isn't about making you happy...it's about not ticking you off.

This system is about giving you a McCain and an Obama and telling you, "well, this is the best we can do that will make as few of you mad as possible so we can win the election".

The system has NEVER been about you...don't fool yourself...and as the population and media availability grows, it will get even less so.

It's time you young guys came to a few hard realizations of life....stop fooling yourself into thinking you matter...you don't....not to Washington anyway.


Its still ironic and its true. Politians and their presidential campaigns have never been about YOU. There about saying whatever it takes to get into the Whitehouse. See Bush.

Thank you captain obvious.

My post still speaks the truth. 300 million and this is th best we can do for the future of America.

[ktCarl]

The drug trade is my primary concern with the Mexican border. As far as terrorism goes, the 9/11 hijackers immigrated into the US itself with valid visas. They didn't get in via Mexican or Canadian borders.

You forget about the possibility of diseases they can bring with them since they haven't been vaccinated from most of the ills that we have either elliminated or got under control.

[slorch]

Wake me up when Obama becomes a racist.

why would you listen now?:confused:

[RedRage00]

Its still ironic and its true. Politians and their presidential campaigns have never been about YOU. There about saying whatever it takes to get into the Whitehouse. See Bush.

Thank you captain obvious.

My post still speaks the truth. 300 million and this is th best we can do for the future of America.

I'm just glad some of the posters on here aren't running...talk about wackos! :p

[t-long20]

I'm just glad some of the posters on here aren't running...talk about wackos! :p

Amen to that brother.:D

[the_phoenix612]

That's because the Left has control of much of our higher learning institutions so there is an almost 'sympathetic' view of socialism from those who attend and graduate those institutions.

ha
haha
hahahahahahahahaha
my sixth grade history book called the civil war the "war of northern aggression" and every teacher I had in election years had W stickers in their classroom/on their cars.
quit trying to pin everything on the left just because the facts don't usually support your views...

[DrEdward]

ha
haha
hahahahahahahahaha
my sixth grade history book called the civil war the "war of northern aggression" and every teacher I had in election years had W stickers in their classroom/on their cars.
quit trying to pin everything on the left just because the facts don't usually support your views...

Well at least the history book in 6th grade got it right. :cool:

[RedRage00]

ha
haha
hahahahahahahahaha
my sixth grade history book called the civil war the "war of northern aggression" and every teacher I had in election years had W stickers in their classroom/on their cars.
quit trying to pin everything on the left just because the facts don't usually support your views...

That's because those Republican teachers aren't smart enough to teach at the college level ;)

[dragonsdaddy]

The problem with GOP is lack of leadership. I guarantee you Shane Claiborn would follow Reagan -- but Bush, hmm, not so much. McCain? Please - the man is not a visionary leader.

The 20 something group is liberal in some areas, conservative in others, and is not loyal to any trend or party.

I think the really interesting block in this campaign will be all the Hispanics that voted for Hillary. Who do they support?

very likely, they support taking the day off. a tuesday in november is always a fine day to drink a beer or 3. they will be non-voters for the most part, imo.

[drgnbkr]

Nothing new in the idealistic view of the younger generation....it just takes a while for realism to take....Always has...:p True wisdom will take hold when you actually have to work, and share your hard earned treasure with a greedy uncle Sam...the % of which greatly increases when liberals have their shot at your money....

[slorch]

That's because those Republican teachers aren't smart enough to teach at the college level ;)

No it's because Republicans are out there applying it in the real world, as opposed to talking about it and drawing another form of a gov check( teaching:D.)

[dragonsdaddy]

That's because those Republican teachers aren't smart enough to teach at the college level ;)

when the rules are written/interprted in your favor, you tend to have many/all the advantages, including who to hire and fire. the instituitions of higher learning have taken an ugly left shift over the last 50 years, and there is no end in sight. fortunately, many of the future wage earners will wake up on 16 april, someday and realize that the pinko professor guild may have been dead wrong. nothing like an over-bearing tax bill to slap you conscious. till then, we'll have to continue listening to the non-experienced airheads.

[the_phoenix612]

when the rules are written/interprted in your favor, you tend to have many/all the advantages, including who to hire and fire. the instituitions of higher learning have taken an ugly left shift over the last 50 years, and there is no end in sight. fortunately, many of the future wage earners will wake up on 16 april, someday and realize that the pinko professor guild may have been dead wrong. nothing like an over-bearing tax bill to slap you conscious. till then, we'll have to continue listening to the non-experienced airheads.

non-experienced airheads like me ? :D :p

link not related:
http://mccainsource.com/mccain_fact_check?id=0007

[dragonsdaddy]

non-experienced airheads like me ? :D :p

link not related:
http://mccainsource.com/mccain_fact_check?id=0007

you tell me. if your experience includes hs and college only, then maybe the shoe fits, maybe not.

[t-long20]

Nothing new in the idealistic view of the younger generation....it just takes a while for realism to take....Always has...:p True wisdom will take hold when you actually have to work, and share your hard earned treasure with a greedy uncle Sam...the % of which greatly increases when liberals have their shot at your money....

I love the way conservatives complain about everything. Little do they know that it took their own screw-ups in the Whitehouse in order to give these libs a fighting chance. Thank you again.

[the_phoenix612]

you tell me. if your experience includes hs and college only, then maybe the shoe fits, maybe not.

very rarely will i apply the "experience" tag to myself.

[RedRage00]

I love the way conservatives complain about everything. Little do they know that it took their own screw-ups in the Whitehouse in order to give these libs a fighting chance. Thank you again.

Word. I'd be a Republican if they weren't so hateful & f*cked up.

[jtk1519]

I love the way conservatives complain about everything. Little do they know that it took their own screw-ups in the Whitehouse in order to give these libs a fighting chance. Thank you again.

Point out the conservative in the White House and I will personally take responsibility for his or her actions. What you obviously fail to realize is that there already is a liberal in the White House who has for 7 years pushed a liberal agenda that has produced typical liberal results. You want to know why liberalism is inherently flawed and in the end unproductive... just look at George W. Bush's administration. It is a textbook example as to why liberals should never be placed in positions of power.

[the_phoenix612]

Point out the conservative in the White House and I will personally take responsibility for his or her actions. What you obviously fail to realize is that there already is a liberal in the White House who has for 7 years pushed a liberal agenda that has produced typical liberal results. You want to know why liberalism is inherently flawed and in the end unproductive... just look at George W. Bush's administration. It is a textbook example as to why liberals should never be placed in positions of power.

are you f***ing kidding me?
W is a liberal?
what the hell am i then?

[jtk1519]

are you f***ing kidding me?
W is a liberal?
what the hell am i then?

Look at his policies... bigger government, uncontrolled spending, more regulation, reduction of individual freedoms for a larger purpose. That is the definition of liberalism and that is W's administration.

[DrEdward]

are you f***ing kidding me?
W is a liberal?
what the hell am i then?

Bush is by no means a conservative in the sense that he favors limited government. He has what many would consider somewhat traditional social views on religion, abortion, etc., but when it comes to govermental spending actions, George Bush is decidedly not a conservative in his approach. He very much has a liberal slant in his budgetary decisions, hardly being opposed to initiating major new federal spending.

[okt0ber]

Maybe, Just maybe...it isn't those speaking spanish that we are worried about. If Mexicans can get into our country undetected, and unstopped...what would stop a group of terrorist from catching a train over here?

I'm not a fan of your..."It looks tough, and improbable...so lets give up" mentality.

Oh right. The sky is falling!! People are entering our country!!

Give me an :Censor:in break. People have been coming here since the 1700s. Hell, the English used to send their criminals here. It's not going to kill us to have people coming here. It's what made this country. Unless you're an indian, your family came here.

What you're really saying is the European migrants are superior to those from latin america. Sure am glad I fit into that category since my grandparents came here from Poland in the 1950s!

It's this narrow minded mentality that is pushing people away from the GOP. Hell, even me! I voted for Bush both times. Not gonna give the GOP another vote just yet. They'll have to reearn my vote...

[okt0ber]

Nothing new in the idealistic view of the younger generation....it just takes a while for realism to take....Always has...:p True wisdom will take hold when you actually have to work, and share your hard earned treasure with a greedy uncle Sam...the % of which greatly increases when liberals have their shot at your money....

Better uncle sam that a greedy shareholder controling our corporations, and leading to the ever so cheapness of American products and goods. I bet in your generation American goods were associated with quality. Top quality, even. Now all American management cares about is profit, nevermind if the good is worth a damn or not. Your generation did that to this country. Your parents and grandparents should be ashamed that you turned their quality products into trash made in China in the name of profit.

[okt0ber]

Bush is by no means a conservative in the sense that he favors limited government. He has what many would consider somewhat traditional social views on religion, abortion, etc., but when it comes to govermental spending actions, George Bush is decidedly not a conservative in his approach. He very much has a liberal slant in his budgetary decisions, hardly being opposed to initiating major new federal spending.

The complete opposite of who I would like. No reason to be so socially conservative. Would be nice to see a smaller federal budget.

[jtk1519]

What you're really saying is the European migrants are superior to those from latin america. Sure am glad I fit into that category since my grandparents came here from Poland in the 1950s!

Your grandparents, like my ancestors, were also probably documented as soon as they got off the boat, thus making them legal. I have heard anybody come out against immigration. Of course this is a country of immigrants and it should always be that because America has, does and always should represent a better life. Immigrants who came here, were documented and paid their taxes to build the America so many leech off of today. My family had to do that... be documented, become citizens so they could earn a living and pay their taxes, but what makes the border-jumpers so superior to my family that they should not be made to do the same?

What is it about crossing the Rio Grande instead of the Atlantic that negates the rules? Why when my family got off the boat in New York Harbor, were most of the men given guns, uniforms and rations and put back on a boat to go fight in a war they knew nothing about before even eating their first meal on American soil, but today it is acceptable to swim across a river, enter a country illegally and receive all the benefits granted to those who have done things the right way? I want any and everybody here that wants to be here, but I want them to have to follow the same rules everybody else did. There is and always has been a bigass line and everybody should have to wait their turn.

[okt0ber]

Your grandparents, like my ancestors, were also probably documented as soon as they got off the boat, thus making them legal. I have heard anybody come out against immigration. Of course this is a country of immigrants and it should always be that because America has, does and always should represent a better life. Immigrants who came here, were documented and paid their taxes to build the America so many leech off of today. My family had to do that... be documented, become citizens so they could earn a living and pay their taxes, but what makes the border-jumpers so superior to my family that they should not be made to do the same?

What is it about crossing the Rio Grande instead of the Atlantic that negates the rules? Why when my family got off the boat in New York Harbor, were most of the men given guns, uniforms and rations and put back on a boat to go fight in a war they knew nothing about before even eating their first meal on American soil, but today it is acceptable to swim across a river, enter a country illegally and receive all the benefits granted to those who have done things the right way? I want any and everybody here that wants to be here, but I want them to have to follow the same rules everybody else did. There is and always has been a bigass line and everybody should have to wait their turn.

You know good and well all those conservatives are against people coming here. Period. Legal or not. They want to block it off and that's that.

[DrEdward]

The complete opposite of who I would like. No reason to be so socially conservative. Would be nice to see a smaller federal budget.

I am not a great fan of W either. However, he is not a public policy conservative. I would much prefer a more libertarian philosophy allowing individuals to pursue their own liberties (with some obvious constraints) and a much less intrusive federal government.

[the_phoenix612]

The complete opposite of who I would like. No reason to be so socially conservative. Would be nice to see a smaller federal budget.

and y'know what, I'm more of a libertarian myself.

at this point in my life, though, social policies mean more than fiscal.

[jtk1519]

and y'know what, I'm more of a libertarian myself.

at this point in my life, though, social policies mean more than fiscal.

I completely disagree. Social policy should be left to the individual states. Fiscal policy is what matters at the federal level.

[jtk1519]

You know good and well all those conservatives are against people coming here. Period. Legal or not. They want to block it off and that's that.

That could not be further from the truth. Conservatives by and large are capitalists and capitalists recognize the need for classes and people to spend money. They want and recognize that we need a working class to produce the goods we all buy. They want people getting mortgages and buying cars, but you can't do that if you are an illegal. Conservatives want people paying for their own healthcare instead of leaving the bill to the taxpayers as illegals have to do. In short, the more people you have here legally and working, the more money is being made and the more the market is being driven. Everyone benefits when more people come over legally to pay their taxes and work. Almost all conservatives are very much pro-legal immigration. After all, we need somebody to trim the hedges around out swimming pools.

[okt0ber]

That could not be further from the truth. Conservatives by and large are capitalists and capitalists recognize the need for classes and people to spend money. They want and recognize that we need a working class to produce the goods we all buy. They want people getting mortgages and buying cars, but you can't do that if you are an illegal. Conservatives want people paying for their own healthcare instead of leaving the bill to the taxpayers as illegals have to do. In short, the more people you have here legally and working, the more money is being made and the more the market is being driven. Everyone benefits when more people come over legally to pay their taxes and work. Almost all conservatives are very much pro-legal immigration. After all, we need somebody to trim the hedges around out swimming pools.

That's certainly news to me!

I don't believe you're a typical conservative, jtk.

[DrEdward]

You know good and well all those conservatives are against people coming here. Period. Legal or not. They want to block it off and that's that.

I disagree with that assessment as well. It is the illegal immigration that has so many conservative types ticked off at the federal government's inaction. I have yet to meet any principled conservative who is simply opposed to any and all immigration into the US.

[okt0ber]

I disagree with that assessment as well. It is the illegal immigration that has so many conservative types ticked off at the federal government's inaction. I have yet to meet any principled conservative who is simply opposed to any and all immigration into the US.

There are plenty of voters who want just that.

[jtk1519]

I disagree with that assessment as well. It is the illegal immigration that has so many conservative types ticked off at the federal government's inaction. I have yet to meet any principled conservative who is simply opposed to any and all immigration into the US.

Agreed. Conservatives want people to pay their way, whether that be for healthcare or education or anything else. The reasons so many conservatives are opposed to illegal immigration is because illegal immigrants and supporting them requires tax dollars from everyone except the illegals. That is fundamentally unfair. That is the opposition conservatives have. I live in a very conservative city and I have never met anybody who is against immigration. Hell, even Michael Savage, perhaps the most hardcore conservative and biggest voice on the immigration issue is pro-legal immigration.

[okt0ber]

Agreed. Conservatives want people to pay their way, whether that be for healthcare or education or anything else. The reasons so many conservatives are opposed to illegal immigration is because illegal immigrants and supporting them requires tax dollars from everyone except the illegals. That is fundamentally unfair. That is the opposition conservatives have. I live in a very conservative city and I have never met anybody who is against immigration. Hell, even Michael Savage, perhaps the most hardcore conservative and biggest voice on the immigration issue is pro-legal immigration.

Ask around in Houston. You'll meet plenty of people who don't want any immigration and/or people from Louisiana living there...

[jtk1519]

Ask around in Houston. You'll meet plenty of people who don't want any immigration and/or people from Louisiana living there...

Well hell, nobody wants anybody from Louisiana coming into their state.

[slorch]

Word. I'd be a Republican if they weren't so hateful & f*cked up.

and the dems never show contempt for others...:rolleyes:

[slorch]

Oh right. The sky is falling!! People are entering our country!!

Give me an :Censor:in break. People have been coming here since the 1700s. Hell, the English used to send their criminals here. It's not going to kill us to have people coming here. It's what made this country. Unless you're an indian, your family came here.

What you're really saying is the European migrants are superior to those from latin america. Sure am glad I fit into that category since my grandparents came here from Poland in the 1950s!

It's this narrow minded mentality that is pushing people away from the GOP. Hell, even me! I voted for Bush both times. Not gonna give the GOP another vote just yet. They'll have to reearn my vote...


And how long did your grandparents linger on gov't dependency programs? That is the issue, not immigration, IMO.

[slorch]

Better uncle sam that a greedy shareholder controling our corporations, and leading to the ever so cheapness of American products and goods. I bet in your generation American goods were associated with quality. Top quality, even. Now all American management cares about is profit, nevermind if the good is worth a damn or not. Your generation did that to this country. Your parents and grandparents should be ashamed that you turned their quality products into trash made in China in the name of profit.

That deterioration could be blamed on unions every bit as much as shareholders. Either way, those institutions are we, the people, not some evil empire some where. We made the choices associated with greed. BTW, I am 37, so I don't know if I am old enough to answer your point about the past.:D

anyone that thinks the Gov't should control the fruits of our labor( wages) more than we do, is following a socialist line of thinking, and I find it abhorrant to our way of life. Keep thinking revenue and ingenuity are going to stay at the same level when taxes are raised. It's an idiotic line of thinking that ignores the value of effort and achievement.

[slorch]

You know good and well all those conservatives are against people coming here. Period. Legal or not. They want to block it off and that's that.

I, like JTK am not against LEGAL Immigration.

You know just as well, as long as the libs can keep those people "on the teat," that it equals votes.

It's scary to me how little you think about what you type. It's like reading stereotype and hatespeech anytime you analyze the "TERRIBLE CONSERVATIVES" and "SELFISH REPUBLICANS."

You seldom refute the counterpoints, such as in this case, telling us why we should enjoy seeing our current medical and social resources ravaged by the institution of illegal immigration and continue to compare it to legal immigrants everyone has in their family's past. Not only is it incorrect, it is downright insulting, but that's OK. Stck to your agenda.

You've got more votes coming every day...

[slorch]

That's certainly news to me!

I don't believe you're a typical conservative, jtk.

why? did you miss the word "Legal" when he said he supported immigration?

You harbor a lot of hate towards conservatives, without defining what it is you have so much dislike for.

You haven't told me why I should support our social, medical, and educational resources being destroyed by illegal immigration.

Is it so i can get my yard mowed for $30?

[Firebird]

Your grandparents, like my ancestors, were also probably documented as soon as they got off the boat, thus making them legal. I have heard anybody come out against immigration. Of course this is a country of immigrants and it should always be that because America has, does and always should represent a better life. Immigrants who came here, were documented and paid their taxes to build the America so many leech off of today. My family had to do that... be documented, become citizens so they could earn a living and pay their taxes, but what makes the border-jumpers so superior to my family that they should not be made to do the same?

What is it about crossing the Rio Grande instead of the Atlantic that negates the rules? Why when my family got off the boat in New York Harbor, were most of the men given guns, uniforms and rations and put back on a boat to go fight in a war they knew nothing about before even eating their first meal on American soil, but today it is acceptable to swim across a river, enter a country illegally and receive all the benefits granted to those who have done things the right way? I want any and everybody here that wants to be here, but I want them to have to follow the same rules everybody else did. There is and always has been a bigass line and everybody should have to wait their turn.

The very big difference: When your family did it there was no such thing as illegal immigration for people of their color. You made it to these shores, you got your name written down and were welcomed in. There has not always been a big line for everyone. There is and always has been a long line for those who don't look like us. That's a historical, undeniable fact. There is virtually no difference between what your ancestors did and what illegal immigrants are doing today, save for the fact that after "undesirable" ethnic groups started showing up we changed the rules. They are and always have been about racism.

A brief history of immigration law in the U.S.:

1776-1875: Restrictions only on criminals and public charges (So far, so good)
1875: Prostitutes, convicts, "coolie" labor (Some Chinese are sneaking in)
1882: Chinese Exclusion Act (Uh-oh! People who don't look like me!)
1924: Quota Act, restricting immigration by nation to 3% of the nationality already in the country. Three years later the quota is lowered to 2%. (Gotta preserve the racial/ethnic balance)
1939-1954: The aftermath of the quota act--Operation Wetback
1965: Immigration Act, abolishing quotas but putting a ceiling on Western Hemisphere immigration of 120,000. By comparison, other individual countries recieve a quota of 20,000. (Now the problem is Mexicans, but we can't say that. We'll just say "Western Hemisphere)
1986: Immigration Reform and Control Act, Does not eliminate the visa quotas
1996: Personal Responisbility Act, Makes nearly all federal benefits save K-12 ed and emergency education illegal for even legal permanent residents.

The GOP is fine with the "right" people coming here...people that look like them. Your ancestors benefited from a system that was perfectly fine with white people coming, then we changed the rules as soon as the wrong people showed up. It may be "legal" but it is not and never has been right.

[RedRage00]

The very big difference: When your family did it there was no such thing as illegal immigration for people of their color. You made it to these shores, you got your name written down and were welcomed in. There has not always been a big line for everyone. There is and always has been a long line for those who don't look like us. That's a historical, undeniable fact. There is virtually no difference between what your ancestors did and what illegal immigrants are doing today, save for the fact that after "undesirable" ethnic groups started showing up we changed the rules. They are and always have been about racism.

A brief history of immigration law in the U.S.:

1776-1875: Restrictions only on criminals and public charges (So far, so good)
1875: Prostitutes, convicts, "coolie" labor (Some Chinese are sneaking in)
1882: Chinese Exclusion Act (Uh-oh! People who don't look like me!)
1924: Quota Act, restricting immigration by nation to 3% of the nationality already in the country. Three years later the quota is lowered to 2%. (Gotta preserve the racial/ethnic balance)
1939-1954: The aftermath of the quota act--Operation Wetback
1965: Immigration Act, abolishing quotas but putting a ceiling on Western Hemisphere immigration of 120,000. By comparison, other individual countries recieve a quota of 20,000. (Now the problem is Mexicans, but we can't say that. We'll just say "Western Hemisphere)
1986: Immigration Reform and Control Act, Does not eliminate the visa quotas
1996: Personal Responisbility Act, Makes nearly all federal benefits save K-12 ed and emergency education illegal for even legal permanent residents.

The GOP is fine with the "right" people coming here...people that look like them. Your ancestors benefited from a system that was perfectly fine with white people coming, then we changed the rules as soon as the wrong people showed up. It may be "legal" but it is not and never has been right.

:notworthy:notworthy

[Firebird]

Agreed. Conservatives want people to pay their way, whether that be for healthcare or education or anything else. The reasons so many conservatives are opposed to illegal immigration is because illegal immigrants and supporting them requires tax dollars from everyone except the illegals. That is fundamentally unfair. That is the opposition conservatives have. I live in a very conservative city and I have never met anybody who is against immigration. Hell, even Michael Savage, perhaps the most hardcore conservative and biggest voice on the immigration issue is pro-legal immigration.

So is it fair that illegal immigrants pay 7 billion dollars a year into social security that they will never withdraw? Seems to me that's fundamentally unfair. Even CIS, which wants more restrictions, admits that they generated about 6.4 billion in SS tax in 2002 alone-- which again, they will never claim. Social Security estimates that without illegals, the system would be 10% deeper in the hole over 75 years.

Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.


Tax specialists estimate that 3/4 of all illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes. The IRS gets billions of dollars a year off of w-2s with incorrect/mismatched. SS numbers, most of which come from states with high populations of illegal immigrants. Who do you think is paying those taxes? The myth that they don't pay taxes is one that has been discredited time and time again yet "conservatives" continue to trot it out.

http://www.globalaging.org/pension/us/socialsec/2005/illegal.htm

[t-long20]

dp

[t-long20]

Point out the conservative in the White House and I will personally take responsibility for his or her actions. What you obviously fail to realize is that there already is a liberal in the White House who has for 7 years pushed a liberal agenda that has produced typical liberal results. You want to know why liberalism is inherently flawed and in the end unproductive... just look at George W. Bush's administration. It is a textbook example as to why liberals should never be placed in positions of power.

I knew this would happen. Look, just replace the words liberal and conservative with. Democrats and Republicans. Im sure that will clear up an miscommunication

[HUM398]

A country without defined borders is a country endanger of losing their sovereignty. Regulation on who comes in is a MUST.

Im all for Legal immigration...this isn't the the 1800's though and the come on over sign your name just won't cut it anymore. I do agree that the current system needs to be reformed or done away with. or perhaps it just needs to be enforced.

But don't cross our borders, spend my tax dollars and expect me to be happy with you. no...

[t-long20]

The very big difference: When your family did it there was no such thing as illegal immigration for people of their color. You made it to these shores, you got your name written down and were welcomed in. There has not always been a big line for everyone. There is and always has been a long line for those who don't look like us. That's a historical, undeniable fact. There is virtually no difference between what your ancestors did and what illegal immigrants are doing today, save for the fact that after "undesirable" ethnic groups started showing up we changed the rules. They are and always have been about racism.


Exactly. When immigrants come to America looking for a better life they don't intend on spending the majority of it in long lines,paying fee's,signing papers,et. etc.

Im sure the standards for becoming an American citizen nowadays are alot harder than back in the day, as it should be. If America wants to fix it's illegal immigration problem then they need to sit down and have a long talk with Mexico. They encourage and make money off of illegal immigration. They provide books and videos on how to successfully cross the border.

I remember watching a show about illegal immigrants who were arrested and on there way to get deported. The reporter asked them what they intend to do and they stated, "We'll try to cross back over again as soon as we get back to Mexico"

[t-long20]

dp

[JMSFan]

So is it fair that illegal immigrants pay 7 billion dollars a year into social security that they will never withdraw? Seems to me that's fundamentally unfair. Even CIS, which wants more restrictions, admits that they generated about 6.4 billion in SS tax in 2002 alone-- which again, they will never claim. Social Security estimates that without illegals, the system would be 10% deeper in the hole over 75 years.




Tax specialists estimate that 3/4 of all illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes. The IRS gets billions of dollars a year off of w-2s with incorrect/mismatched. SS numbers, most of which come from states with high populations of illegal immigrants. Who do you think is paying those taxes? The myth that they don't pay taxes is one that has been discredited time and time again yet "conservatives" continue to trot it out.

http://www.globalaging.org/pension/us/socialsec/2005/illegal.htm

So they come into the country and remain illegal, and they get a individual tax identification number designed for anyone who doesn't have a social security number.Then they pay taxes, but this does nothing to require them to gain citizenship here in the U.S.A.
Research has shown that illegal immigrants actually use more in social services than they make up for in taxes. That's because their education level and immigration status result in very low wages that aren't taxed heavily to begin with.
Is that fair?
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

[tayb]

So is it fair that illegal immigrants pay 7 billion dollars a year into social security that they will never withdraw? Seems to me that's fundamentally unfair. Even CIS, which wants more restrictions, admits that they generated about 6.4 billion in SS tax in 2002 alone-- which again, they will never claim. Social Security estimates that without illegals, the system would be 10% deeper in the hole over 75 years.




Tax specialists estimate that 3/4 of all illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes. The IRS gets billions of dollars a year off of w-2s with incorrect/mismatched. SS numbers, most of which come from states with high populations of illegal immigrants. Who do you think is paying those taxes? The myth that they don't pay taxes is one that has been discredited time and time again yet "conservatives" continue to trot it out.

http://www.globalaging.org/pension/us/socialsec/2005/illegal.htm


Well... I doubt I will ever get to claim all the money I have been putting into social security. My generation was taught to invest and save because it was doubtful SS would survive the baby boomers imminent retiring the next five or six years. A lot of people will be paying into SS who will never see a check, not just illegal immigrants.

You also have to take into account the amount of illegal immigrants who are being paid under the table. As a teenager I saw it working construction and even working at an establishment such as Schlotzksys Deli. I doubt this number is as small as that website estimates.

[Firebird]

So they come into the country and remain illegal, and they get a individual tax identification number designed for anyone who doesn't have a social security number.Then they pay taxes, but this does nothing to require them to gain citizenship here in the U.S.A.
Research has shown that illegal immigrants actually use more in social services than they make up for in taxes. That's because their education level and immigration status result in very low wages that aren't taxed heavily to begin with.
Is that fair?
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

CIS has their agenda, but even if their numbers are correct, the total cost is .09% of the federal budget. In all honesty, if you ask most mainstream economists, the net economic impact of illegal immigration is pretty much a wash once you do all the work....the economic argument is one that doesn't hold water.

[ktCarl]

ha
haha
hahahahahahahahaha
my sixth grade history book called the civil war the "war of northern aggression" and every teacher I had in election years had W stickers in their classroom/on their cars.
quit trying to pin everything on the left just because the facts don't usually support your views...


Don't tell me what to do especially if you're just in the 6th grade.

[HUM398]

CIS has their agenda, but even if their numbers are correct, the total cost is .09% of the federal budget. In all honesty, if you ask most mainstream economists, the net economic impact of illegal immigration is pretty much a wash once you do all the work....the economic argument is one that doesn't hold water.

All the studies i have read indicate otherwise. So many illegals send home money to their families, and that money circulates into the Mexican Economies, and other Central American economies (since the vast amount of Illegals are from south of our border) and not our own.

[RedRage00]

dp

[RedRage00]

Exactly. When immigrants come to America looking for a better life they don't intend on spending the majority of it in long lines,paying fee's,signing papers,et. etc.

Im sure the standards for becoming an American citizen nowadays are alot harder than back in the day, as it should be. If America wants to fix it's illegal immigration problem then they need to sit down and have a long talk with Mexico. They encourage and make money off of illegal immigration. They provide books and videos on how to successfully cross the border.

I remember watching a show about illegal immigrants who were arrested and on there way to get deported. The reporter asked them what they intend to do and they stated, "We'll try to cross back over again as soon as we get back to Mexico"

A lot of the Republicans in here like to talk like they actually know what goes on with illegal immigrants. Most of them probably just know what they read in the paper. They have probably never had a conversation with an illegal Mexican...and don't use the "they don't speak English" excuse because thats how I prefer to talk to them. Most will pick up English pretty fast once here. They have no choice.

I agree that some sort of immigration reform is needed but it seems like most Americans are after the Mexicans....forgetting a lot of illegals from overseas that make it here. Weren't the terrorist on 9/11 here on Visas legally? Bird is right..its just plain racism because they don't look like "us" and they're poor...nevermind if a French person or Italian can get in illegally somehow and I've seen it done. They come from a better country than Mexico. :rolleyes:

The system is flawed. I don't think we will ever stop illegal immigration. Have you ever crossed over from Mexico? It's so easy...they just ask you if you're an American citizen and boom, you get through just by saying YES. If you're sleeping as you cross, even easier. They don't wake you up to even ask you that question.

Most of you don't know first hand what goes on so stop acting like you do.

btw-that wasn't directed at you t-long

[Firebird]

All the studies i have read indicate otherwise. So many illegals send home money to their families, and that money circulates into the Mexican Economies, and other Central American economies (since the vast amount of Illegals are from south of our border) and not our own.

That's one factor...but there is also the factor of lower goods and services to the consumer, lower costs to employers, money that stays here (rent, food, etc.), property taxes (usually indirectly through rent), sales taxes....

I've read several and the ones that figure net benefit and net negative are both very small. A wash.

[HUM398]

A lot of the Republicans in here like to talk like they actually know what goes on with illegal immigrants. Most of them probably just know what they read in the paper. They have probably never had a conversation with an illegal Mexican...and don't use the "they don't speak English" excuse because thats how I prefer to talk to them. Most will pick up English pretty fast once here. They have no choice.

I agree that some sort of immigration reform is needed but it seems like most Americans are after the Mexicans....forgetting a lot of illegals from overseas that make it here. Weren't the terrorist on 9/11 here on Visas legally? Bird is right..its just plain racism because they don't look like "us" and they're poor...nevermind if a French person or Italian can get in illegally somehow and I've seen it done. They come from a better country than Mexico. :rolleyes:

The system is flawed. I don't think we will ever stop illegal immigration. Have you ever crossed over from Mexico? It's so easy...they just ask you if you're an American citizen and boom, you get through just by saying YES. If you're sleeping as you cross, even easier. They don't wake you up to even ask you that question.

Most of you don't know first hand what goes on so stop acting like you do.

btw-that wasn't directed at you t-long

Then who was it directed to?

Almost everyone thats posts on here lives in Texas bro...so i can pretty much guarantee you we all have talked to an illegal immigrant at least twice a week. I have been rear-ended by them.

No one is after the "Mexicans" they are just the ones that come at a much larger rate then anyone else. Canadians sneak across, but for the most part they want to stay in Canada. Mexico is a basically a third world country, that borders ours....Naturally you are going to have them cross our border in more numbers then the French and Italian dudes...kind of hard to cross a large body of water. the truth is...the illegals in this state, are of Spanish speaking origin.

No one is being racist....thats just something the liberal throws out to shut up the opponent. in this day in age, i can glance over at someone of a different race in the wrong way and be accused of a hate crime.

[HUM398]

That's one factor...but there is also the factor of lower goods and services to the consumer, lower costs to employers, money that stays here (rent, food, etc.), property taxes (usually indirectly through rent), sales taxes....

I've read several and the ones that figure net benefit and net negative are both very small. A wash.

Thats one factor that contributes billions of dollars of spending and saving power out of our economy each year.

Our economy basically runs off of what we will spend, and what we will save...

and i don't know about you, but im not paying lower for anything these days...i bought a gallon of milk the other day for 3.95.

[RedRage00]

Then who was it directed to?

Almost everyone thats posts on here lives in Texas bro...so i can pretty much guarantee you we all have talked to an illegal immigrant at least twice a week. I have been rear-ended by them.

No one is after the "Mexicans" they are just the ones that come at a much larger rate then anyone else. Canadians sneak across, but for the most part they want to stay in Canada. Mexico is a basically a third world country, that borders ours....Naturally you are going to have them cross our border in more numbers then the French and Italian dudes...kind of hard to cross a large body of water. the truth is...the illegals in this state, are of Spanish speaking origin.

No one is being racist....thats just something the liberal throws out to shut up the opponent. in this day in age, i can glance over at someone of a different race in the wrong way and be accused of a hate crime.

Yes, this is TX but I doubt people speak to them twice a week....or do you mean seeing them out in public? There's a difference. I haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant in months...maybe because Ive only been in Dallas 8 months and I don't know where they hang out just yet. ;)

I guess my point was that you cant stop it unless you know what goes on...most people in here don't have a rats @$$ idea what goes on...just only what they read in newspaper or see in the news. They wouldn't know first hand how to stop illegal immigration, yet they talk on here like they know the ins and outs of it. You can't stop it unless you know how it works from the inside.

[jtk1519]

I knew this would happen. Look, just replace the words liberal and conservative with. Democrats and Republicans. Im sure that will clear up an miscommunication

That just makes it worse because not all conservatives are Republicans and not all liberals are Democrats. There are liberal Republicans everywhere (like the White House) and there are conservative Democrats who Howard Dean is trying to sweep under the rug.

I could care less about the "Republican" and "Democrat" tags. George W. Bush is a liberal pure and simple and that is more than confirmed by his 7+ years as POTUS.

[HUM398]

Yes, this is TX but I doubt people speak to them twice a week....or do you mean seeing them out in public? There's a difference. I haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant in months...maybe because Ive only been in Dallas 8 months and I don't know where they hang out just yet. ;)

I guess my point was that you cant stop it unless you know what goes on...most people in here don't have a rats @$$ idea what goes on...just only what they read in newspaper or see in the news. They wouldn't know first hand how to stop illegal immigration, yet they talk on here like they know the ins and outs of it. You can't stop it unless you know how it works from the inside.

I should rephrase that...i talk to an illegal immigrant at least twice a week.

They are hard working people, but i don't wont them in my country if they didn't do it the right way. it isn't like breaking the speeding laws, it equivalent to living in my backyard without letting me know you are there, and asking not permission.

[HUM398]

That just makes it worse because not all conservatives are Republicans and not all liberals are Democrats. There are liberal Republicans everywhere (like the White House) and there are conservative Democrats who Howard Dean is trying to sweep under the rug.

I could care less about the "Republican" and "Democrat" tags. George W. Bush is a liberal pure and simple and that is more than confirmed by his 7+ years as POTUS.

Zell miller is my hero.

[jtk1519]

So is it fair that illegal immigrants pay 7 billion dollars a year into social security that they will never withdraw? Seems to me that's fundamentally unfair. Even CIS, which wants more restrictions, admits that they generated about 6.4 billion in SS tax in 2002 alone-- which again, they will never claim. Social Security estimates that without illegals, the system would be 10% deeper in the hole over 75 years.

When and where did I ever say anything about social security? Of course I think it would be unfair for illegals to pay in, but then I think it is unfair that I pay in. If it were up to me, and I think most conservatives agree, I would do away with SS or privatize it.

[jtk1519]

Zell miller is my hero.

HOLLA!

[jtk1519]

The very big difference: When your family did it there was no such thing as illegal immigration for people of their color. You made it to these shores, you got your name written down and were welcomed in. There has not always been a big line for everyone. There is and always has been a long line for those who don't look like us. That's a historical, undeniable fact. There is virtually no difference between what your ancestors did and what illegal immigrants are doing today, save for the fact that after "undesirable" ethnic groups started showing up we changed the rules. They are and always have been about racism.

A brief history of immigration law in the U.S.:

1776-1875: Restrictions only on criminals and public charges (So far, so good)
1875: Prostitutes, convicts, "coolie" labor (Some Chinese are sneaking in)
1882: Chinese Exclusion Act (Uh-oh! People who don't look like me!)
1924: Quota Act, restricting immigration by nation to 3% of the nationality already in the country. Three years later the quota is lowered to 2%. (Gotta preserve the racial/ethnic balance)
1939-1954: The aftermath of the quota act--Operation Wetback
1965: Immigration Act, abolishing quotas but putting a ceiling on Western Hemisphere immigration of 120,000. By comparison, other individual countries recieve a quota of 20,000. (Now the problem is Mexicans, but we can't say that. We'll just say "Western Hemisphere)
1986: Immigration Reform and Control Act, Does not eliminate the visa quotas
1996: Personal Responisbility Act, Makes nearly all federal benefits save K-12 ed and emergency education illegal for even legal permanent residents.

The GOP is fine with the "right" people coming here...people that look like them. Your ancestors benefited from a system that was perfectly fine with white people coming, then we changed the rules as soon as the wrong people showed up. It may be "legal" but it is not and never has been right.

I see what you're trying to say, but you're off. One, nobody in this country wanted my ancestors here. The only reason they were welcomed in is because they were fresh bodies to send down South to fight. Otherwise, the Irish were viewed with the kind of contempt most illegals are now days.

Two, while the rules have changed, they are still the rules. I have said before here that we need massive immigration reform that allows documented workers in and speeds up the citizenship process. What we have right now is not fair to the immigrants, but fair or not... those are still the rules. I waited in line at HEB last night for damn near 30 minutes to check out because they didn't have enough registers opened. I could have gone and tried to open one myself and check out myself or just taken my basket straight out the door, but that is not the way things worked. I stayed in line like everybody else. Perhaps that is a very simplistic way to look at immigration, but the idea is the same.

[t-long20]

A lot of the Republicans in here like to talk like they actually know what goes on with illegal immigrants. Most of them probably just know what they read in the paper. They have probably never had a conversation with an illegal Mexican...and don't use the "they don't speak English" excuse because thats how I prefer to talk to them. Most will pick up English pretty fast once here. They have no choice.

I agree that some sort of immigration reform is needed but it seems like most Americans are after the Mexicans....forgetting a lot of illegals from overseas that make it here. Weren't the terrorist on 9/11 here on Visas legally? Bird is right..its just plain racism because they don't look like "us" and they're poor...nevermind if a French person or Italian can get in illegally somehow and I've seen it done. They come from a better country than Mexico. :rolleyes:

The system is flawed. I don't think we will ever stop illegal immigration. Have you ever crossed over from Mexico? It's so easy...they just ask you if you're an American citizen and boom, you get through just by saying YES. If you're sleeping as you cross, even easier. They don't wake you up to even ask you that question.

Most of you don't know first hand what goes on so stop acting like you do.

btw-that wasn't directed at you t-long


You hit the nail right on the head. You can slow down immigration by any means necessary but untill you talk to the source than you will never eliminate it.

[Firebird]

I see what you're trying to say, but you're off. One, nobody in this country wanted my ancestors here. The only reason they were welcomed in is because they were fresh bodies to send down South to fight. Otherwise, the Irish were viewed with the kind of contempt most illegals are now days.

Two, while the rules have changed, they are still the rules. I have said before here that we need massive immigration reform that allows documented workers in and speeds up the citizenship process. What we have right now is not fair to the immigrants, but fair or not... those are still the rules. I waited in line at HEB last night for damn near 30 minutes to check out because they didn't have enough registers opened. I could have gone and tried to open one myself and check out myself or just taken my basket straight out the door, but that is not the way things worked. I stayed in line like everybody else. Perhaps that is a very simplistic way to look at immigration, but the idea is the same.

I agree, but would ask you why you threw such a hissy fit about that very plan as proposed by McCain.

[HUM398]

I agree, but would ask you why you threw such a hissy fit about that very plan as proposed by McCain.

Because it allowed ILLEGAL immigrant to stay if they entered the country before a certain date...i think it was January 6th 2005 or 2004....

see my definition of Documented workers aren't those who came in illegally and have a job...its those who have a visa to work here.

[Firebird]

Because it allowed ILLEGAL immigrant to stay if they entered the country before a certain date...i think it was January 6th 2005 or 2004....

see my definition of Documented workers aren't those who came in illegally and have a job...its those who have a visa to work here.

But JTK just admitted the system isn't fair.......

[the_phoenix612]

Don't tell me what to do especially if you're just in the 6th grade.

firstly, I am a sophomore in college.
secondly, I did not tell you what to do...

[HUM398]

But JTK just admitted the system isn't fair.......

And....

So because it isn't fair, we have to make it more unfair? did i understand what you were implying...or did i read to much into that?

[HUM398]

firstly, I am a sophomore in college.
secondly, I did not tell you what to do...

I thought you were a 16 year old who is a senior in HS, who attends college courses and gets college credits from UNT?

im confused.

[Firebird]

And....

So because it isn't fair, we have to make it more unfair? did i understand what you were implying...or did i read to much into that?

No, just wondering why we are so hostile towards the idea of letting people who have been here working, making contributions to the government and society, adjust their status. They would all happily do it. Since we have established that the only rule they have broken is unfair, why punish them further.

[the_phoenix612]

I thought you were a 16 year old who is a senior in HS, who attends college courses and gets college credits from UNT?

im confused.

technically I am also a senior in high school.
However, I do not think of myself as such, and describe myself as a sophomore in college.
All of my peers do the same.

[chhspantherfan]

No, just wondering why we are so hostile towards the idea of letting people who have been here working, making contributions to the government and society, adjust their status. They would all happily do it. Since we have established that the only rule they have broken is unfair, why punish them further.

No problems with these people, adjust their status at the expense of those around the world that have followed the guidelines and are still waiting for their lottery number to be called. :rolleyes:

Now for those that are here working, not paying into the system, not keeping their money in this country, requiring social services, and keeping LEGAL preschoolers out of public school programs. (Will provide refs on all of this if you are out of the loop) What do we do with them? :rolleyes:

I don't think it is hostility people are feeling, rather an inequity that needs to be corrected.

IMO

[okt0ber]

why? did you miss the word "Legal" when he said he supported immigration?

You harbor a lot of hate towards conservatives, without defining what it is you have so much dislike for.

You haven't told me why I should support our social, medical, and educational resources being destroyed by illegal immigration.

Is it so i can get my yard mowed for $30?


Who said I supported the illegals? I never did. I just think people are blowing it out of proportion. If our medical care wasn't outragously expensive, the illegals wouldn't been cramming into our emergency rooms for the common cold.

And, I doubt the illegals are on welfare as you insinuate. They don't want the government to know they're here, they're certainly not getting the Lone Star Card....

I don't hate conservatives. In fact, I've voted for more conservatives than anything else in my short voting record.

What I hate is their "sky is falling" mentality about social issues. Women are choosing to have abortions, oh hell the sky is falling, I better insert my personal beliefs upon them and try and outlaw it. Gays are getting married.... CRAP the sky is falling, let me push my beliefs on them! You can't do that, we need to insert morals into our constitutions!!

It's rediculous (sp?). The government needs to be out of the bedroom, and that's not the conservative ideal anymore. They used to be for smaller government, yet they can come up with all these social rules that the government is supposed to enforce... nevermind we have real crime problems in this county....

What else can I talk about? Conservativs need to practice what they preach, and quit thinking up these garbage laws that are supposed to legislate morals.

mmkay i'm off my soap box. I'm sure some of that doesn't make sense but you know how it goes when you're typing our random thoughts on a rant LOL.

[Firebird]

No problems with these people, adjust their status at the expense of those around the world that have followed the guidelines and are still waiting for their lottery number to be called. :rolleyes:

Now for those that are here working, not paying into the system, not keeping their money in this country, requiring social services, and keeping LEGAL preschoolers out of public school programs. (Will provide refs on all of this if you are out of the loop) What do we do with them? :rolleyes:

I don't think it is hostility people are feeling, rather an inequity that needs to be corrected.

IMO

The McCain-Kennedy Bill addressed every single one of those issues:
Those immigrants hoping to adjust their status would have had to:

1. Show work history, clean criminal background, and that they were not security threats, clear medical checks
2. Meet a future work requirement, pay fines and application procedures of $2,000+, pay back taxes, and meet English/Civics requirements

Those hoping to get in would have had to:

1. Show evidence of a job waiting and pass all the above security requirements, pay $500 for a fee.

Let's see, the bill required that they pay taxes, pay fines, learn English, and keep a job. It seemed to answer all of the usual complaints.....oh yeah, but all those GOP Dittoheads just cared so much about people waiting for visas that they killed it. Purely from a sense of justice:rolleyes:

[Firebird]

Who said I supported the illegals? I never did. I just think people are blowing it out of proportion. If our medical care wasn't outragously expensive, the illegals wouldn't been cramming into our emergency rooms for the common cold.

And, I doubt the illegals are on welfare as you insinuate. They don't want the government to know they're here, they're certainly not getting the Lone Star Card....

Exactly right. Illegal immigrants are forbidden from collecting any benefits save K-12 education and emergency medical care.

I don't hate conservatives. In fact, I've voted for more conservatives than anything else in my short voting record.

What I hate is their "sky is falling" mentality about social issues. Women are choosing to have abortions, oh hell the sky is falling, I better insert my personal beliefs upon them and try and outlaw it. Gays are getting married.... CRAP the sky is falling, let me push my beliefs on them! You can't do that, we need to insert morals into our constitutions!!

It's rediculous (sp?). The government needs to be out of the bedroom, and that's not the conservative ideal anymore. They used to be for smaller government, yet they can come up with all these social rules that the government is supposed to enforce... nevermind we have real crime problems in this county....

What else can I talk about? Conservativs need to practice what they preach, and quit thinking up these garbage laws that are supposed to legislate morals.

mmkay i'm off my soap box. I'm sure some of that doesn't make sense but you know how it goes when you're typing our random thoughts on a rant LOL.

Red

[t-long20]

Im also curious to what kind of benefits illegals may have by coming here besides the obvious. Last time I checked they were trying to stay under the radar.

[drgnbkr]

The McCain-Kennedy Bill addressed every single one of those issues:
Those immigrants hoping to adjust their status would have had to:

1. Show work history, clean criminal background, and that they were not security threats, clear medical checks
2. Meet a future work requirement, pay fines and application procedures of $2,000+, pay back taxes, and meet English/Civics requirements

Those hoping to get in would have had to:

1. Show evidence of a job waiting and pass all the above security requirements, pay $500 for a fee.

Let's see, the bill required that they pay taxes, pay fines, learn English, and keep a job. It seemed to answer all of the usual complaints.....oh yeah, but all those GOP Dittoheads just cared so much about people waiting for visas that they killed it. Purely from a sense of justice:rolleyes:

McCain/Kennedy = Amnesty = Bad...Sorry, you can spin it anyway you want, but any recollection by the voters of this fiasco of a bill would = loss of election...The bill quickly went down in flames as it should....

[Favpack]

I've done a 180 on immigration. My general attitude is - learn to speak English or go home.

When you refuse to assimilate - you create problems. When 15% of your population refuses to learn to speak English - then you need teachers, police officers, firemen, doctors, judges, etc. etc. etc. etc. that are not necessarily good - they just need to be bi-lingual.

I don't particularly feel cheery about my new stance - but it is how I stand right now.

[Firebird]

McCain/Kennedy = Amnesty = Bad...Sorry, you can spin it anyway you want, but any recollection by the voters of this fiasco of a bill would = loss of election...The bill quickly went down in flames as it should....

It proved that "conservatives" who are in favor of immigration so long as people have jobs, learn English, pay taxes, etc are lying. The bill explicitly required all of those things.

It's all distraction from their central problem, which is that they don't look like "conservatives" wished they did.

[Firebird]

I've done a 180 on immigration. My general attitude is - learn to speak English or go home.

When you refuse to assimilate - you create problems. When 15% of your population refuses to learn to speak English - then you need teachers, police officers, firemen, doctors, judges, etc. etc. etc. etc. that are not necessarily good - they just need to be bi-lingual.

I don't particularly feel cheery about my new stance - but it is how I stand right now.

Latin American immigrants learn English at the same rate as every single previous wave of non-English speaking immigrants. No slower and no faster.

[Favpack]

Latin American immigrants learn English at the same rate as every single previous wave of non-English speaking immigrants. No slower and no faster.

How about Mexico?

[HUM398]

No, just wondering why we are so hostile towards the idea of letting people who have been here working, making contributions to the government and society, adjust their status. They would all happily do it. Since we have established that the only rule they have broken is unfair, why punish them further.

Because they broke the rule. Do you reward someone for taking a crap in your backyard and then cleaning it up and throwing it in your trash can?

[tayb]

No, just wondering why we are so hostile towards the idea of letting people who have been here working, making contributions to the government and society, adjust their status. They would all happily do it. Since we have established that the only rule they have broken is unfair, why punish them further.


How many countries around the world do you think I could stroll into illegally, demand citizenship, and have it granted...?

It doesn't work that way. If I do well on my prison-job of cleaning laundry it doesn't mean they forget why I am there and release me.

[mad_fan]

Has anybody changed their mind on anything???:D

[mad_fan]

The McCain-Kennedy Bill addressed every single one of those issues:
Those immigrants hoping to adjust their status would have had to:

1. Show work history, clean criminal background, and that they were not security threats, clear medical checks
2. Meet a future work requirement, pay fines and application procedures of $2,000+, pay back taxes, and meet English/Civics requirements

Those hoping to get in would have had to:

1. Show evidence of a job waiting and pass all the above security requirements, pay $500 for a fee.

Let's see, the bill required that they pay taxes, pay fines, learn English, and keep a job. It seemed to answer all of the usual complaints.....oh yeah, but all those GOP Dittoheads just cared so much about people waiting for visas that they killed it. Purely from a sense of justice:rolleyes:


While all this is true...
You leave out an important factor....
Those that followed the rules...waited their time...and paid a lot more to get the deal done...
Perhaps my congressperson found my arguement compelling...
When you are in your country of origin...and get your notice for a fingerprint appointment...they dont come to you...you go to the US Consulate...in our case that was a flight from North Bay , Ontario to Montreal, Quebec...plus hotel because of the time of the appointment...about $1000.00 for ms mad...plus the appointment fee to the State Department...
All told it would have been cheaper and easier for me to smuggle my WIFE in...declare her to the then INS...and pay the fine...it's a bad system...that rewards illegal behavior...
PS...ms mad's white...and a Canadian liberal...and they still screwed with us...;)

[okt0ber]

How many countries around the world do you think I could stroll into illegally, demand citizenship, and have it granted...?

It doesn't work that way. If I do well on my prison-job of cleaning laundry it doesn't mean they forget why I am there and release me.

Well we're not all those other countries, now are we?? This is the USA and that's not how things are.

If you want us to be like those other countries, then you can pay your higher taxes and have social medicine, too.

You just want your cake and eat it, too. All about number one.

[slorch]

What I hate is their "sky is falling" mentality about social issues. Women are choosing to have abortions, oh hell the sky is falling, I better insert my personal beliefs upon them and try and outlaw it. Gays are getting married.... CRAP the sky is falling, let me push my beliefs on them! You can't do that, we need to insert morals into our constitutions!!Yet somehow you feel it is OK to insert your immorality into our lives. Abortion is murder. That is my fundamental belief. There are laws forbidding murder, yet folks with political, as opposed to moral, agendas push for the woman's right for a second choice. I don't need the additional laws, libs do. Same goes for gay marriage. They are the ones that want additional laws to recognize something that just completely should not exist, except in some liberal fantasy land, where somebody felt like they weren't getting their piece of the pie( no pun intended.) we can split hairs for days on this thread, but don't come in here and blindly accuse people of "inserting their morality into constitutions," when the libs are the very ones perverting the laws you used as examples with extra protection or rights that should never exist.

It's rediculous (sp?). The government needs to be out of the bedroom, and that's not the conservative ideal anymore. They used to be for smaller government, yet they can come up with all these social rules that the government is supposed to enforce... nevermind we have real crime problems in this county(what county?:D).... if you think cheapening the value of marriage in the eyes of the law so two homos can feel better about themselves and get survivor benefits is acceptable, then I can only imagine what else you think is OK. Personally, i don't really care, except that in the eyes of the Lord, two dudes ladies don't have Holy Matrimony. The folks griping about legislating morality need laws to further their agenda. Ironic, don't ya think?

What else can I talk about? Conservativs need to practice what they preach, and quit thinking up these garbage laws that are supposed to legislate morals. I think I addressed this accusation already. I don't want more laws. i just want the ones we have to be enforced.

mmkay i'm off my soap box. I'm sure some of that doesn't make sense but you know how it goes when you're typing our random thoughts on a rant LOL.

anytime you're ready, bring it, brother. The accusatory tone of your post caught me off guard, I must admit. Upon deeper inspection, it simply turned to empty humor.

[tayb]

Well we're not all those other countries, now are we?? This is the USA and that's not how things are.

If you want us to be like those other countries, then you can pay your higher taxes and have social medicine, too.

You just want your cake and eat it, too. All about number one.

Yup, we are in the US and we have LAWS and it IS how things are here. You don't get to illegally invade this country and just because you have been here for a certain amount of time ILLEGALLY doesn't mean you should be granted citizenship.

Oh, I robbed that bank ten years ago but since I haven't been caught yet I can no longer be charged because its been so long... wait that isn't how it works?

[okt0ber]

anytime you're ready, bring it, brother. The accusatory tone of your post caught me off guard, I must admit. Upon deeper inspection, it simply turned to empty humor.

Marriage should be an issue between me and the church. Not the government. The way it should work is, if the church wants to marry someone, they can do it. All the government needs to know is names and socials. That's it. (mind you, this WILL lead to illigitimate churches, I'm sure.)

As far as me push my immorality on you, I do no such thing. If you'd stay out of others' bedrooms, nothing is being pushed on you. You live your like like you please, and don't worry about how others live. That's how the government needs to operate. It's there to facilitate and regulate commerce/control the money, provide a military and police/fire protection, and that's it. Nothing else. Nothing else needed from them. At all. Nada. And since we don't have social medicine right now, healthcare would fall under that regulate commerce bit. Too bad it's not being regulated right now.

[okt0ber]

Yup, we are in the US and we have LAWS and it IS how things are here. You don't get to illegally invade this country and just because you have been here for a certain amount of time ILLEGALLY doesn't mean you should be granted citizenship.

Oh, I robbed that bank ten years ago but since I haven't been caught yet I can no longer be charged because its been so long... wait that isn't how it works?

So what do we do with all of them? Put them in prison? I don't want to pay for that.... Deport them? There would be no one left in south Texas, that doesn't work... what would you like to happen, exactly? These are human beings and the solution has to make sense. Sometimes the black and white legal thing to do doesn't make the most sense.... there ARE gray areas with certain issues, you know.

[mad_fan]

Okay Bird...it's your day...but only because you raise some good points...and will probably reply in words...not pictures...

I wont try to pit my minor in government from Angelo State against your higher knowledge...;)...but...

Do you see no difference in populating the US today vs 150 years ago???
Do you really feel that the majority of Republicans place the race of an individual above all else when considering immigration, business relationships, appointments (political or business)???

[slorch]

Has anybody changed their mind on anything???:D


yes. I think we need a taller soapbox with a better microphone.:D

[okt0ber]

yes. I think we need a taller soapbox with a better microphone.:D

You know, all of us could have our own show on Fox News. I better we'd have better ratings than Hannity and Colms..

[tayb]

So what do we do with all of them? Put them in prison? I don't want to pay for that.... Deport them? There would be no one left in south Texas, that doesn't work... what would you like to happen, exactly? These are human beings and the solution has to make sense. Sometimes the black and white legal thing to do doesn't make the most sense.... there ARE gray areas with certain issues, you know.

I am not against granting citizenship as long as there is repercussions for their actions. I DO NOT agree with just granting citizenship to a bunch of people who have illegally invaded this country with just a slap on the wrist. I am punished in some way for my actions they should be held accountable all the same. Prison is too expensive as is deportation but they need to be held accountable. The method of repercussions is for debate, perhaps some sort of pro-rated back taxes (obviously not gouging them, but something), community service, some sort of government work, or just something.

We can't just allow them amnesty no questions asked what kind of immigrant would come into America legally if we just grant illegals citizenship every 5 years?

[mad_fan]

Well we're not all those other countries, now are we?? This is the USA and that's not how things are.

If you want us to be like those other countries, then you can pay your higher taxes and have social medicine, too.

You just want your cake and eat it, too. All about number one.

Euro countries and Canada are recognizing the failure of their experiments...
They are electing more conservative governments...
They are not cutting taxes greatly yet (except on corporations)...that will come for individuals...what they are cutting back is services (read medical)...do in large part to lack of professionals to service all the need...at the government authorized price...

[mad_fan]

yes. I think we need a taller soapbox with a better microphone.:D

[Stage RIGHT...enter 6'5" mad...:D]

[okt0ber]

I am not against granting citizenship as long as there is repercussions for their actions. I DO NOT agree with just granting citizenship to a bunch of people who have illegally invaded this country with just a slap on the wrist. I am punished in some way for my actions they should be held accountable all the same. Prison is too expensive as is deportation but they need to be held accountable. The method of repercussions is for debate, perhaps some sort of pro-rated back taxes (obviously not gouging them, but something), community service, some sort of government work, or just something.

We can't just allow them amnesty no questions asked what kind of immigrant would come into America legally if we just grant illegals citizenship every 5 years?


Didn't that bill include a provision for paying back taxes, yes??

[slorch]

Marriage should be an issue between me and the church. Not the government. The way it should work is, if the church wants to marry someone, they can do it. All the government needs to know is names and socials. That's it. (mind you, this WILL lead to illigitimate churches, I'm sure.)

As far as me push my immorality on you, I do no such thing. If you'd stay out of others' bedrooms, nothing is being pushed on you. You live your like like you please, and don't worry about how others live. That's how the government needs to operate. It's there to facilitate and regulate commerce/control the money, provide a military and police/fire protection, and that's it. Nothing else. Nothing else needed from them. At all. Nada. And since we don't have social medicine right now, healthcare would fall under that regulate commerce bit. Too bad it's not being regulated right now.

I don't live how I please.

Where gov't has gotten involved with most of the gay issues is legislating from the bench, especially when it involves insurance/ inheritance benefits and recognition as next of kin. i have an issue with two dudes being recognized by the law as next of kin because they do the horizontal bop together. either recognize anyone, like a best friend, a dog, or whatever, or just recognize the marriage of a man and woman. To recognize two men as having that bond with a judicial decision is giving added protection under the law.

I don't care what you do at your house, until it affects me. My employer spends monies on domestic partners' benefits that could be spent on my family. That directly affects me. Why not recognize golf partners? Sewing partners? dance partners? It's ludicrous. the erosion of morality today has led folks to think it is acceptable to corrupt common sense so that they can once again, do as they please.

Don't tell me it doesn't affect me, because it does.

[tayb]

Didn't that bill include a provision for paying back taxes, yes??

Don't know. Did not read it I have not been in this conversation very long. Maybe I mis-understood Firebird's post or should have read more of the pages before replying.

[okt0ber]

I don't live how I please.

Where gov't has gotten involved with most of the gay issues is legislating from the bench, especially when it involves insurance/ inheritance benefits and recognition as next of kin. i have an issue with two dudes being recognized by the law as next of kin because they do the horizontal bop together. either recognize anyone, like a best friend, a dog, or whatever, or just recognize the marriage of a man and woman. To recognize two men as having that bond with a judicial decision is giving added protection under the law.

I don't care what you do at your house, until it affects me. My employer spends monies on domestic partners' benefits that could be spent on my family. That directly affects me. Why not recognize golf partners? Sewing partners? dance partners? It's ludicrous. the erosion of morality today has led folks to think it is acceptable to corrupt common sense so that they can once again, do as they please.

Don't tell me it doesn't affect me, because it does.

Then find a new employer if you don't like the way they run their business. Still not a government issue....

[slorch]

You know, all of us could have our own show on Fox News. I better we'd have better ratings than Hannity and Colms..

I think I'd could be a Ron White type dude on our show, as far as the Scotch goes...and dry, dry humor.:D

[slorch]

Then find a new employer if you don't like the way they run their business. Still not a government issue....

I work for one of top 20 companies for Diversity according to Diversity magazine, as well as Fortune. I have a great job and i feel like my opinions are still valued as well as my contributions recognized. If everyone was far left at our company, we wouldn't be that diverse, right?

[mad_fan]

I think I'd could be a Ron White type dude on our show, as far as the Scotch goes...and dry, dry humor.:D

No show...and we already have competition for the Scotch job...:notworthy

[slorch]

No show...and we already have competition for the Scotch job...:notworthy

I'd settle for first pick at the groupies.;)

[okt0ber]

I think I'd could be a Ron White type dude on our show, as far as the Scotch goes...and dry, dry humor.:D

Scotch, eh? I'm a vodka drinker. Goes hand in hand with our political views :D

[mad_fan]

Then find a new employer if you don't like the way they run their business. Still not a government issue....

Governments' first job is to allow or prohibit activities...
Be it playing with guns...or letting your grass grow too tall...
Some activities are allowed...some prohibited...
I'm in the camp that gay marriage is a government issue...and should be prohibited...

[slorch]

Scotch, eh? I'm a vodka drinker. Goes hand in hand with our political views :D

actually I like Bourbon, best, but I was trying to get into my character...:D

also in the past year or two, I have really gotten into trying lots of microbrews and different beers. Some of the darker stouts, brown ales, and dunkels are really, really rewarding at the end of a hard day's work.

[mad_fan]

Scotch, eh? I'm a vodka drinker. Goes hand in hand with our political views :D

In the morning hours we'd agree on something...:eek::D

[slorch]

In the morning hours we'd agree on something...:eek::D

shredded wheat and vodka...hmmm

I might have to try tht sometime.:D

[okt0ber]

In the morning hours we'd agree on something...:eek::D

Vodka any time of day!

[jtk1519]

A lot of the Republicans in here like to talk like they actually know what goes on with illegal immigrants. Most of them probably just know what they read in the paper. They have probably never had a conversation with an illegal Mexican...and don't use the "they don't speak English" excuse because thats how I prefer to talk to them. Most will pick up English pretty fast once here. They have no choice.

I used to work in construction and knew and talked to more illegals than you can shake a stick at. A vast majority are good people who bust their tails. They work hard and I want them in this country, but the only way this country works is if we all have to play by the same set of rules.

[jtk1519]

But JTK just admitted the system isn't fair.......

Life isn't fair. That is not an excuse to circumvent the law.

[drgnbkr]

It proved that "conservatives" who are in favor of immigration so long as people have jobs, learn English, pay taxes, etc are lying. The bill explicitly required all of those things.

It's all distraction from their central problem, which is that they don't look like "conservatives" wished they did.

The reason that both sides are dodging the border issue is simply that they both want to count the hispanic vote. Until we secure the borders, then create a systematic system of immigration, we are going to have more and more of our health care facilities going bankrupt...then it will be city services, and finally, federal services...It's all coming, and it is our fine elected officials on both sides that are sitting on thier thumbs.

[jtk1519]

To address Firebird's point about McCain's amnesty bill, I wasn't as bent out of shape some. I realize that there is no way you can deport the 12 million+ illegals in this country and that a vast majority are just here to work. The problem is that you can't just document them and let that be it. You can't deport them, but there has to be some kind of punishment. I don't know what that is. Maybe an extra tax, community service or something. Hell, make them work for the government for a set period of time before being allowed to join the private workforce. The bottom line is though that you can't let law breakers get away with breaking the law just because their intentions are good.

[tayb]

To address Firebird's point about McCain's amnesty bill, I wasn't as bent out of shape some. I realize that there is no way you can deport the 12 million+ illegals in this country and that a vast majority are just here to work. The problem is that you can't just document them and let that be it. You can't deport them, but there has to be some kind of punishment. I don't know what that is. Maybe an extra tax, community service or something. Hell, make them work for the government for a set period of time before being allowed to join the private workforce. The bottom line is though that you can't let law breakers get away with breaking the law just because their intentions are good.

Thats pretty much what I had said as well :D.

I am not against granting citizenship as long as there is repercussions for their actions. I DO NOT agree with just granting citizenship to a bunch of people who have illegally invaded this country with just a slap on the wrist. I am punished in some way for my actions they should be held accountable all the same. Prison is too expensive as is deportation but they need to be held accountable. The method of repercussions is for debate, perhaps some sort of pro-rated back taxes (obviously not gouging them, but something), community service, some sort of government work, or just something.

The only problem is I don't see any candidates who have the balls to risk an election with a bill like this.

[Favpack]

Hillary wins West Virginia. Mountain men everywhere are happy.

[slorch]

Hillary wins West Virginia. Mountain men everywhere are happy.

who wouldn't feel good about having a mountain woman after looking at Hillary for 3 days?:confused::D

[EagleDude73]

Hillary wins West Virginia. Mountain men everywhere are happy.

http://64.13.133.31/pics/up-9HPAKHT5FK7UN4N3

[Firebird]

To address Firebird's point about McCain's amnesty bill, I wasn't as bent out of shape some. I realize that there is no way you can deport the 12 million+ illegals in this country and that a vast majority are just here to work. The problem is that you can't just document them and let that be it. You can't deport them, but there has to be some kind of punishment. I don't know what that is. Maybe an extra tax, community service or something. Hell, make them work for the government for a set period of time before being allowed to join the private workforce. The bottom line is though that you can't let law breakers get away with breaking the law just because their intentions are good.


What was wrong with the extra fee they were going to have to pay? Not enough? I can understand that I guess, but it is not as if they got off scot free.

[t-long20]

Do you see no difference in populating the US today vs 150 years ago???


In a couple years they will be the majority and you will be the minority my friend.:D

[t-long20]

I used to work in construction and knew and talked to more illegals than you can shake a stick at. A vast majority are good people who bust their tails. They work hard and I want them in this country, but the only way this country works is if we all have to play by the same set of rules.

You would've never even met them if they played by the rules.;) There is an estimatre of atleast 12 million illegals out there right now. Good luck finding them and deporting them. Majority of which are not even from the border.
Entered Legally with Inspection
Non-Immigrant Visa Overstayers 4 to 5.5 Million
Border Crossing Card Violators 250,000 to 500,000
Entered Illegally without Inspection
Evaded the Immigration Inspectors and Border Patrol 6 to 7 Million

[t-long20]

Your not going to stop illegal immigration so long as the Mexican government encourages and helps its own citizens to cross into America.

The Mexican government has worked to make illegal immigration to the U.S. easier.

It plans to produce 70,000 maps marking main roads and water tanks for people wanting to cross illegally into the US. According to Mauricio Farah of Mexico's Human Rights Commission,

the Yucatan government (a state of Mexico) also produces educational materials (a handbook and DVD) to instruct its citizens on how to cross the border and how to avoid notice as an illegal immigrant once the border has been crossed. This guide also tells immigrants where to find health care, how to get their kids into U.S. schools and how to send money home. Sara Zapata Mijares of the Los Angeles Yacatecan Club and officials in Yucatan say illegal immigration is a reality and the guide is a necessity to save lives. Ira Mehlman of the Federation for American Immigration Reform says, "This is really the way they keep their corrupt system afloat, by sending their excess workers to the United States and getting billions of dollars in remittances every year ... so for them this is a worthwhile investment".[


The Mexican government distributes a comic book which instructs illegal immigrants on how to sneak across the border. [101] That comic book recommends to illegal immigrants, once they've safely crossed the border, "Don't call attention to yourself. ... Avoid loud parties. ... Don't become involved in fights." The Mexican government defends the guide as an attempt to save lives. "It's kind of like illegal immigration for dummies," said the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, Mark Krikorian. "Promoting safe illegal immigration is not the same as arguing against it."

Boy does the U.S border patrol have its hands full.:eek:

[jtk1519]

I would also backhand the :Censor: out of the Mexican government for that. I'm talking sanctions or some crap. You are not an ally of this country if you are teaching your citizens how to break our laws.

[mojotrain]

Or maybe, just maybe, he realized that fighting about immigration was a losing battle. Maybe he realized that the real threats to our country did not speak Spanish. Maybe he realized that the idea of "securing" 2,000 mile from the "threat" of poor people looking for work was a pipe dream that is never going to happen regardless of how many miles of fence went up, so a much better route would be to figure out how to make what was once illegal a streamilned, controlled, legal process. Maybe he poked around the border and realized that it was going to be damn near impossible to convince the families and people who have lived a certain way for generations, before the U.S. even made it that far south, that all of a sudden they had to change everything. Nah, that couldn't be it.

Funny thing how rabid conservatives get about property rights so long as that property doesn't abut the Rio Grande. Tough luck to those people whose families have tended that patch of dirt since the king of Spain gave it to them.....huh?:rolleyes:

I bought mine from a old grino who lives in Odessa.

[okt0ber]

I would also backhand the :Censor: out of the Mexican government for that. I'm talking sanctions or some crap. You are not an ally of this country if you are teaching your citizens how to break our laws.

No no. Let the punishment fit the crime. Our government needs to come up with educational materials on how we can exploit their free medical care system ;)

[JMSFan]

Yes, this is TX but I doubt people speak to them twice a week....or do you mean seeing them out in public? There's a difference. I haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant in months...maybe because Ive only been in Dallas 8 months and I don't know where they hang out just yet. ;)

I guess my point was that you cant stop it unless you know what goes on...most people in here don't have a rats @$$ idea what goes on...just only what they read in newspaper or see in the news. They wouldn't know first hand how to stop illegal immigration, yet they talk on here like they know the ins and outs of it. You can't stop it unless you know how it works from the inside.

My next door neighbor is illegal, I talk to him every day, my son has dated a girl for three years whose parents are illegal. They have been for twenty years, so I hope you werent talking about me.

[mojotrain]

Illegal immigrants pay lots and lots of taxes. The idea that they don't is probably the biggest misconception out there. In fact, they pay so much taxes that leaders of anti-illegal immigration groups want the IRS to start using its info to deport illegals.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/17/more_illegal_immigrants_are_rushing_to_file_taxes/

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/04/15/immigrant.taxes.ap/

In fact, they might very well be keeping social security afloat, because they pay into but draw nothing out. I

One sided views again.

The illegal mentioned in one of these quotes you posted, had a reported salary of 34,000 per year. Most of the people you are preaching to on this site don't make that. I can buy that crap if they work at a upscale hotel or resturant in Vegas, New York or Boston, considering tips and other services rendered. They are not picking cabbages south of Hondo or Shearing sheep in Val Verde County. They show the few that will make their garbage sound good. You just passed it on.
Find a fact that tells what the average taxable salary for illegals happens to be and what taxes they pay on that amount. Then you will have both sides of a story. I'll give you a hint to start with. Just a bit over minimum wage. I'm thinking they don't pay alot of tax on minimum wage. Then factor in their cost to the medical system, their cost to the social security system and the educational system. After that factor in what part of their salary is sent back to Mexico without being spent for good and services on this side of the border.

If you do this you will have a true idea of their worth and of course you will pass it on.

The only value of a illegal to any politican is that they hope they can find a way to give them the right to vote.

[HUM398]

No no. Let the punishment fit the crime. Our government needs to come up with educational materials on how we can exploit their free medical care system ;)

Ive received Mexican medical care....I rather cut of a limb....

[JMSFan]

One sided views again.

The illegal mentioned in one of these quotes you posted, had a reported salary of 34,000 per year. Most of the people you are preaching to on this site don't make that. I can buy that crap if they work at a upscale hotel or resturant in Vegas, New York or Boston, considering tips and other services rendered. They are not picking cabbages south of Hondo or Shearing sheep in Val Verde County. They show the few that will make their garbage sound good. You just passed it on.
Find a fact that tells what the average taxable salary for illegals happens to be and what taxes they pay on that amount. Then you will have both sides of a story. I'll give you a hint to start with. Just a bit over minimum wage. I'm thinking they don't pay alot of tax on minimum wage. Then factor in their cost to the medical system, their cost to the social security system and the educational system. After that factor in what part of their salary is sent back to Mexico without being spent for good and services on this side of the border.

If you do this you will have a true idea of their worth and of course you will pass it on.

The only value of a illegal to any politican is that they hope they can find a way to give them the right to vote.

Youre right . This goes along with the points I made earlier yesterday that illegals use more in social services than they ever make up in taxes.

[t-long20]

I would also backhand the :Censor: out of the Mexican government for that. I'm talking sanctions or some crap. You are not an ally of this country if you are teaching your citizens how to break our laws.

Don't you just love our southern neighbours?

[GoOwls]

Yes, this is TX but I doubt people speak to them twice a week....or do you mean seeing them out in public? There's a difference. I haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant in months...maybe because Ive only been in Dallas 8 months and I don't know where they hang out just yet. ;)

I guess my point was that you cant stop it unless you know what goes on...most people in here don't have a rats @$$ idea what goes on...just only what they read in newspaper or see in the news. They wouldn't know first hand how to stop illegal immigration, yet they talk on here like they know the ins and outs of it. You can't stop it unless you know how it works from the inside.

I speak to illegal immigrants every day that I put my uniform on....fine people, by-in-large.....just like every other race and demographic....what's your point....

I've been hanging around illegals for 24 years now.....know quite a bit about them and how they think........what do you want to know......?

[GoOwls]

Red

Are you on drugs.....I deliver the checks and food stamps.....your info is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY off.

I got one illegal mother with four kids who's husband died here and she gets four Social Security checks per month...one for each kid...plus food stamps and...free school lunch....etc....etc...etc...

They got a nice new car (Expedition) with that money a few months ago...she'll get the money till each kid reaches 18, I think, and they're all very young right now.

Geeze.....the stuff you guys don't know about.....;)

[RedRage00]

One sided views again.

The illegal mentioned in one of these quotes you posted, had a reported salary of 34,000 per year. Most of the people you are preaching to on this site don't make that. I can buy that crap if they work at a upscale hotel or resturant in Vegas, New York or Boston, considering tips and other services rendered. They are not picking cabbages south of Hondo or Shearing sheep in Val Verde County. They show the few that will make their garbage sound good. You just passed it on.
Find a fact that tells what the average taxable salary for illegals happens to be and what taxes they pay on that amount. Then you will have both sides of a story. I'll give you a hint to start with. Just a bit over minimum wage. I'm thinking they don't pay alot of tax on minimum wage. Then factor in their cost to the medical system, their cost to the social security system and the educational system. After that factor in what part of their salary is sent back to Mexico without being spent for good and services on this side of the border.

If you do this you will have a true idea of their worth and of course you will pass it on.

The only value of a illegal to any politican is that they hope they can find a way to give them the right to vote.


I don't know why you are assuming most people on here don't make $34,000. Did I miss the thread where we told everyone our salaries? I can name a handful of people on this board that I know of personally that make more than that(myself included)...just because the job market in Odessa sucks doesn't mean you have to assume everyone's job sucks. :rolleyes:

I grew up around illegals and most of the men I knew worked GOOD jobs with GOOD salaries. They made enough money to where they could support themselves and send money back to Mexico....more than $34,000yr. Their salaries were being taxed so I don't see why people use that tired excuse. They get taxes taken out of their paycheck just like everyone else. They pay sales taxes when they shop at Walmart.

Yes, they send money back to Mexico....but they also send GOODS purchased with this money back to Mexico as well. American goods purchased at our stores because its better than what is found in Mexico. So come up with some other tired @$$ argument.

[RedRage00]

I don't live how I please.

Where gov't has gotten involved with most of the gay issues is legislating from the bench, especially when it involves insurance/ inheritance benefits and recognition as next of kin. i have an issue with two dudes being recognized by the law as next of kin because they do the horizontal bop together. either recognize anyone, like a best friend, a dog, or whatever, or just recognize the marriage of a man and woman. To recognize two men as having that bond with a judicial decision is giving added protection under the law.

I don't care what you do at your house, until it affects me. My employer spends monies on domestic partners' benefits that could be spent on my family. That directly affects me. Why not recognize golf partners? Sewing partners? dance partners? It's ludicrous. the erosion of morality today has led folks to think it is acceptable to corrupt common sense so that they can once again, do as they please.
Don't tell me it doesn't affect me, because it does.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard come out of your mouth Slorch. I thought you were better than that....comparing domestic partners benefits to golf partners and dance partners? Give me a F*CKING BREAK!! Okt0ber is nice to you but I'm not. :D

Domestic partner benefits affects me a hell of a lot more than it affects you...you have your benefits for your family and now you want to take it away from gays/lesbians that want it for themselves&their partner because you want MORE spent on your family? Geez, is what you have already not good enough? If I worked at your company I'm sure I'd put in just as much time and effort to deserve those benefits just as much as you do. It doesn't affect you..you already have your benefits for your family and kids(You just want MORE MORE MORE). Let Tom & his partner get his if they want....I can guarantee you that your company wishes domestic partnerships outnumbered your partnership because most likely they(domestic) won't have kids to account for(to bump up the cost). I could make a claim that all those damn hospital visits by straights taking their kids to the doctor for every little cough and sneeze is whats costing your company to spend more. You want to make it seem like 50% of employee benefits are spent on domestic benefits...I bet it is nowhere near as high a number as you claim. You don't work in accounting so you wouldn't know the amount your company spends....I work in accounting. I've seen whats spent on employee benefits...not your company though. I just know there couldnt be as many people running around your company with domestic benefits that you make it seem.

Going back to your other issue, since when is it your business that 2 guys want to be recognized as next of kin? Once again you go comparing it to stupid stuff as dogs, and best friends. I don't know about you but I dont sleep with my dog or best friend. That is the most tired @$$ argument by conservatives that I've seen.

Why are you worried about what goes on in my life? It doesnt affect you. If something happens to me and I have to be put in the hospital or whatever I want my partner to be able to come in and see me as "family"...why should YOU have any say on who can come see me in the hospital or have rights to MY things that I worked my @$$ off for? You're not going to be there at the hospital so why should you give a damn...I don't see why you have an issue with 2 guys...unless you're one of them then I'd STFU. You dont see me trying to come into your home and set up laws and tell you how to live your life...you'd f*cking have a heart attack if I did that. That is whats wrong with conservatives in this damn country...they want to butt in everyones f8cking business when it comes to everything...abortion,gay rights,etc when they should worry about what the hell is going on in their own damn home.

[Firebird]

Okay Bird...it's your day...but only because you raise some good points...and will probably reply in words...not pictures...

I wont try to pit my minor in government from Angelo State against your higher knowledge...;)...but...

Do you see no difference in populating the US today vs 150 years ago???
Do you really feel that the majority of Republicans place the race of an individual above all else when considering immigration, business relationships, appointments (political or business)???

When talking about immigration...yes, absolutely. Most "conservatives" (not Republicans on this issue are very schizophrenic. They have no problem with minorities in day to day interactions and usually like them as individuals. What they do have is a "sky is falling" mentality and believe that their culture, way of life, etc., is being ruined by masses of minorities (most of whom, of course, are not anything like the honest, decent people they interact with on an individual level).

As far as a difference in populating the U.S. 150 years ago...yes, there is a difference. The point is that racism in immigration policy started to show up then with things like the Chinese exclusion act. It continues to this day. The U.S. has always preferred people from certain parts of the world to come, while discouraging people from others. It's historical record, not any real debate.

I'm all for a sensible immigration policy and secure borders, but they must go hand in hand or it won't work. Without a sensible immigration policy, you end up spending millions in man hours and treasure chasing people who are no threat to the country and who indeed contribute to economic growth. That's why you can't "secure the borders first."

Whereas, getting a more humane and common sense policy into place means that most of the people who are crossing illegally would move through established, legal channels. Then the only people you are out looking for in the brush are the real bad guys that you're concerned about. It takes away the conduit the bad guys hide among......

Terrorists and drug runners will no longer be able to use caravans of illegal immigrants as shields if those immigrants are suddenly given a realistic and straightforward route towards getting a work visa....simple really.

[dragonsdaddy]

You hit the nail right on the head. You can slow down immigration by any means necessary but untill you talk to the source than you will never eliminate it.
please elaborate how this system of yours might eliminate immigration. i have never heard anyone recommend talking it to death. interesting.

[GoOwls]

please elaborate how this system of yours might eliminate immigration. i have never heard anyone recommend talking it to death. interesting.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[okt0ber]

Are you on drugs.....I deliver the checks and food stamps.....your info is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY off.

I got one illegal mother with four kids who's husband died here and she gets four Social Security checks per month...one for each kid...plus food stamps and...free school lunch....etc....etc...etc...

They got a nice new car (Expedition) with that money a few months ago...she'll get the money till each kid reaches 18, I think, and they're all very young right now.

Geeze.....the stuff you guys don't know about.....;)

So you nose through people's mail? That's real ethical of you...

He was legal? The kids are legal? ok.... what's wrong with them receiving the benefit that they're eligible for????

[drgnbkr]

So you nose through people's mail? That's real ethical of you...

He was legal? The kids are legal? ok.... what's wrong with them receiving the benefit that they're eligible for????

Who said they were legal? Don't you realize we are paying for this scam?

[okt0ber]

Who said they were legal? Don't you realize we are paying for this scam?

Yeah, we're paying for it. If they weren't legal, they wouldn't be eligible. Unless the SS Administration is utterly inept (They are inept, but not utterly inept), I don't think they're sending out checks to illegals. Someone here was legal. Either the kids or the dad was...

That's not a very good example because I don't have all the details. I love how the convervs love to pass judgement without having all the details of the situation....

[HUM398]

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard come out of your mouth Slorch. I thought you were better than that....comparing domestic partners benefits to golf partners and dance partners? Give me a F*CKING BREAK!! Okt0ber is nice to you but I'm not. :D

Domestic partner benefits affects me a hell of a lot more than it affects you...you have your benefits for your family and now you want to take it away from gays/lesbians that want it for themselves&their partner because you want MORE spent on your family? Geez, is what you have already not good enough? If I worked at your company I'm sure I'd put in just as much time and effort to deserve those benefits just as much as you do. It doesn't affect you..you already have your benefits for your family and kids(You just want MORE MORE MORE). Let Tom & his partner get his if they want....I can guarantee you that your company wishes domestic partnerships outnumbered your partnership because most likely they(domestic) won't have kids to account for(to bump up the cost). I could make a claim that all those damn hospital visits by straights taking their kids to the doctor for every little cough and sneeze is whats costing your company to spend more. You want to make it seem like 50% of employee benefits are spent on domestic benefits...I bet it is nowhere near as high a number as you claim. You don't work in accounting so you wouldn't know the amount your company spends....I work in accounting. I've seen whats spent on employee benefits...not your company though. I just know there couldnt be as many people running around your company with domestic benefits that you make it seem.

Going back to your other issue, since when is it your business that 2 guys want to be recognized as next of kin? Once again you go comparing it to stupid stuff as dogs, and best friends. I don't know about you but I dont sleep with my dog or best friend. That is the most tired @$$ argument by conservatives that I've seen.

Why are you worried about what goes on in my life? It doesnt affect you. If something happens to me and I have to be put in the hospital or whatever I want my partner to be able to come in and see me as "family"...why should YOU have any say on who can come see me in the hospital or have rights to MY things that I worked my @$$ off for? You're not going to be there at the hospital so why should you give a damn...I don't see why you have an issue with 2 guys...unless you're one of them then I'd STFU. You dont see me trying to come into your home and set up laws and tell you how to live your life...you'd f*cking have a heart attack if I did that. That is whats wrong with conservatives in this damn country...they want to butt in everyones f8cking business when it comes to everything...abortion,gay rights,etc when they should worry about what the hell is going on in their own damn home.

Please don't test the language filters

Thanks,
HUM

[HUM398]

So you nose through people's mail? That's real ethical of you...

He was legal? The kids are legal? ok.... what's wrong with them receiving the benefit that they're eligible for????

Social security checks are pretty noticeable. actually any Government check is....

[t-long20]

please elaborate how this system of yours might eliminate immigration. i have never heard anyone recommend talking it to death. interesting.

What?:confused:

[t-long20]

as shields if those immigrants are suddenly given a realistic and straightforward route towards getting a work visa....simple really.

Theres an estimated 5.5 million illegals who overstay their work visa. Just pointing that out.

[Firebird]

Who said they were legal? Don't you realize we are paying for this scam?

If the kids are recieving benefits, they are legal. If SS is paying benefits to the husband's next of kin, he was legal.

No two ways about it....also, Texas no longer sends paper food stamps, it is all done electronically. So there's another hole.

[HUM398]

]When talking about immigration...yes, absolutely. Most "conservatives" (not Republicans on this issue are very schizophrenic. They have no problem with minorities in day to day interactions and usually like them as individuals. What they do have is a "sky is falling" mentality and believe that their culture, way of life, etc., is being ruined by masses of minorities (most of whom, of course, are not anything like the honest, decent people they interact with on an individual level).[/B]

As far as a difference in populating the U.S. 150 years ago...yes, there is a difference. The point is that racism in immigration policy started to show up then with things like the Chinese exclusion act. It continues to this day. The U.S. has always preferred people from certain parts of the world to come, while discouraging people from others. It's historical record, not any real debate.
I'm all for a sensible immigration policy and secure borders, but they must go hand in hand or it won't work. Without a sensible immigration policy, you end up spending millions in man hours and treasure chasing people who are no threat to the country and who indeed contribute to economic growth. That's why you can't "secure the borders first."

Whereas, getting a more humane and common sense policy into place means that most of the people who are crossing illegally would move through established, legal channels. Then the only people you are out looking for in the brush are the real bad guys that you're concerned about. It takes away the conduit the bad guys hide among......

Terrorists and drug runners will no longer be able to use caravans of illegal immigrants as shields if those immigrants are suddenly given a realistic and straightforward route towards getting a work visa....simple really.

Out of touch

[Firebird]

Out of touch

So what do you propose....

Oh yeah, kick out anyone who speaks differently and doesn't look like me:rolleyes:


I am counting the days to when Texas becomes a hispanic majority state and the reckoning comes.....

[JMSFan]

Yeah, we're paying for it. If they weren't legal, they wouldn't be eligible. Unless the SS Administration is utterly inept (They are inept, but not utterly inept), I don't think they're sending out checks to illegals. Someone here was legal. Either the kids or the dad was...

That's not a very good example because I don't have all the details. I love how the convervs love to pass judgement without having all the details of the situation....

I wonder just how much of that SS check goes directly to those children? It sounds like ( just a guess) its paying for a new Ford. But yea, to be fair, we dont know all the facts.
It would be better if those funds that were available to those kids could be set aside until they became adults.
The mother should be doing what needs to be done to gain citizenship here.

[t-long20]

So what do you propose....

Oh yeah, kick out anyone who speaks differently and doesn't look like me:rolleyes:


I am counting the days to when Texas becomes a hispanic majority state and the reckoning comes.....

Don't forget California as well.

[t-long20]

I speak to illegal immigrants every day that I put my uniform on....fine people, by-in-large.....just like every other race and demographic....what's your point....

I've been hanging around illegals for 24 years now.....know quite a bit about them and how they think........what do you want to know......?

Why don't you report them:confused:

[drgnbkr]

If the kids are recieving benefits, they are legal. If SS is paying benefits to the husband's next of kin, he was legal.

No two ways about it....also, Texas no longer sends paper food stamps, it is all done electronically. So there's another hole.

I think it is a given that the system is rampant with fraud. Goowls see's it everyday in the mail he delivers, we all see it all around us..that is the point....we will have no system left if we don't clean it up and do something about it.

[JMSFan]

So what do you propose....

Oh yeah, kick out anyone who speaks differently and doesn't look like me:rolleyes:


I am counting the days to when Texas becomes a hispanic majority state and the reckoning comes.....

Why? What will make it any different then?

[Firebird]

Why? What will make it any different then?

Unless the "conservative" party shapes up and pulls their head out, you can count on a "blue" majority just like you count on a "red" majority right now.

Conservatives and the hispanic community could find a lot of common ground, but as long as "conservatism" is synonymous with xenophobia and gloom and doom clash of civilizations rhetoric, there will be no reconciliation. Republicans are handing Texas to the Democratic party ad infinitum with their refusal to consider a sensible immigration party, just as surely as the Dems handed the South to the Republicans with Civil Rights.

Enjoy digging your own grave through a refusal to compromise......it's fun to watch.

[t-long20]

Why? What will make it any different then?

Good luck finding 12 million people.

[ktCarl]

The reason that both sides are dodging the border issue is simply that they both want to count the hispanic vote. Until we secure the borders, then create a systematic system of immigration, we are going to have more and more of our health care facilities going bankrupt...then it will be city services, and finally, federal services...It's all coming, and it is our fine elected officials on both sides that are sitting on thier thumbs.

Are you saying that illegal immigrants can vote?

[t-long20]

Are you saying that illegal immigrants can vote?

I hope not. By some of the posts on here you would think that illegals have a better life than American born citizens.

[Firebird]

I hope not. By some of the posts on here you would think that illegals have a better life than American born citizens.


They do. Don't you know that they all are just here mooching off of all of us? Being an illegal immigrant is awesome. The U.S. just gives you stuff for free and you don't have to work.

[HUM398]

So what do you propose....

Oh yeah, kick out anyone who speaks differently and doesn't look like me:rolleyes:


I am counting the days to when Texas becomes a hispanic majority state and the reckoning comes.....

and what do i look like firebird? use that intellectual brain power to tell me that.

A lot of Hispanics feel that illegals should go home, not just white conservatives. unless the majority becomes voting Illegal Hispanics, i could careless if the demographics of this state change.

I am serious when i say you have no freaking idea what you are talking about. And it irritates the hell out of me when people pull that freaking race card. What a cop out... You believe that bro, then you are far more delusional then i could have ever perceived.

[RedRage00]

Please don't test the language filters

Thanks,
HUM

I didn't know you were KT2000, KtChamp, or jtchill

Signed,
RR

[JMSFan]

I hope not. By some of the posts on here you would think that illegals have a better life than American born citizens.

Then why wont they do the right thing and become a legal citizen? Then, and only then, should they be able to access Social Security Benefits, or any assistance program.

[Firebird]

and what do i look like firebird? use that intellectual brain power to tell me that.

A lot of Hispanics feel that illegals should go home, not just white conservatives. unless the majority becomes voting Illegal Hispanics, i could careless if the demographics of this state change.

I am serious when i say you have no freaking idea what you are talking about. And it irritates the hell out of me when people pull that freaking race card. What a cop out... You believe that bro, then you are far more delusional then i could have ever perceived.

I have no idea what you look like, just that for all the usual complaints:

1. They don't learn English
2. They're a burden on the economy
3. They don't pay taxes

Etc, etc, etc...your complaints are invalid. So I have to wonder what your real beef with people who are by and large honest is.....

[Firebird]

Then why wont they do the right thing and become a legal citizen? Then, and only then, should they be able to access Social Security Benefits, or any assistance program.

Because the good people of this country threw a hissy fit when presented with a plan that would allow illegal immigrants a path to citizenship.

[JMSFan]

They do. Don't you know that they all are just here mooching off of all of us? Being an illegal immigrant is awesome. The U.S. just gives you stuff for free and you don't have to work.

You actually just spoke more truth than you realize.

[t-long20]

They do. Don't you know that they all are just here mooching off of all of us? Being an illegal immigrant is awesome. The U.S. just gives you stuff for free and you don't have to work.

Yup. Theres no such thing as illegals trying to keep a low profile. There out and about having the greatest time of there lives. Buying houses and SUV's, living that American dream.

I also wasn't aware of all the freebies they got. They must like the way illegal immigration works.

[Firebird]

You want to talk to people who are out of touch, its the people who believe that they are all here mooching. Daily life in this country would grind to a screeching halt if illegal immigrants walked off their jobs.

Complain about food prices now....wait and see what happens once you cleanse the industry of its labor force.

[stevefoxsc]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/pew-pew-pew.jpg

[JMSFan]

Yup. Theres no such thing as illegals trying to keep a low profile. There out and about having the greatest time of there lives. Buying houses and SUV's, living that American dream.

I also wasn't aware of all the freebies they got. They must like the way illegal immigration works.

If its so terrible for them, then why are they here?

[Firebird]

Yup. Theres no such thing as illegals trying to keep a low profile. There out and about having the greatest time of there lives. Buying houses and SUV's, living that American dream.

I also wasn't aware of all the freebies they got. They must like the way illegal immigration works.
Dude, they give you everything. It's awesome. Trust me. I wish I was one, my life would be better. You should renounce your citizenship, then sneak back in the country. You'd be better off. :rolleyes:

[t-long20]

Because the good people of this country threw a hissy fit when presented with a plan that would allow illegal immigrants a path to citizenship.


:notworthy Theres atleast 12 million illegals out there right now. There going to be here whether some of yall like it or not. Why not bring them into the light from the darkness? They don't come here to "mooch". They come here to work their :Censor: off and support their family by any means necessary.

[RedRage00]

Dude, they give you everything. It's awesome. Trust me. I wish I was one, my life would be better. You should renounce your citizenship, then sneak back in the country. You'd be better off. :rolleyes:

I know. I was thinking of doing the same thing. :eek:

[t-long20]

Dude, they give you everything. It's awesome. Trust me. I wish I was one, my life would be better. You should renounce your citizenship, then sneak back in the country. You'd be better off. :rolleyes:

Thats not a bad idea.;)

[stevefoxsc]

You want to talk to people who are out of touch, its the people who believe that they are all here mooching. Daily life in this country would grind to a screeching halt if illegal immigrants walked off their jobs.

Complain about food prices now....wait and see what happens once you cleanse the industry of its labor force.

False, one of my friends who currently lives in California eye witnessed all these immigrants protest and walk of their job, guess what? L.A was perfectly fine...

[JMSFan]

You want to talk to people who are out of touch, its the people who believe that they are all here mooching. Daily life in this country would grind to a screeching halt if illegal immigrants walked off their jobs.

Complain about food prices now....wait and see what happens once you cleanse the industry of its labor force.

The illegal immigrants only make up about 4% of the entire U.S. population.
Last month the ICE agents rounded up more than 400 illegal immigrant workers at Pilgrims Pride.
My chicken didnt cost any more this month than usual.
In fact, more actual LEGAL people were able to fill those jobs.
Take your gloom and doom message elsewhere, look at reality.

[RedRage00]

The illegal immigrants only make up about 4% of the entire U.S. population.
Last month the ICE agents rounded up more than 400 illegal immigrant workers at Pilgrims Pride.
My chicken didnt cost any more this month than usual.
In fact, more actual LEGAL people were able to fill those jobs.

They'll just come right back as soon as they are dropped off in Mexico.

I knew someone back home that got deported and he was back at one of our BBQs the next weekend. :p

[stevefoxsc]

:notworthy Theres atleast 12 million illegals out there right now. There going to be here whether some of yall like it or not. Why not bring them into the light from the darkness? They don't come here to "mooch". They come here to work their :Censor: off and support their family by any means necessary.

True story i used to work at HEB in my high school years. I got to witness a a Hispanic family of 3 leave the store with 8 shopping carts well worth over 2k. 1 basket loaded with meats, another with breads, fruits veggies etc. They paid with food stamps.... Yeah sure some of them are here to work hard, but for the most part their are many more taking the free ride. And for people who really need that assistance they do not receive it do to the illegals. Another example is college. The left over grant money that is often at times refundable through a check. Beginning of a semester its packed, the checks come in and they disappear... Sure its not only the immigrants, but its more of them than any other i can tell you.

[JMSFan]

They'll just come right back as soon as they are dropped off in Mexico.

I knew someone back home that got deported and he was back at one of our BBQs the next weekend. :p

Then the next time he comes back, he needs to go to jail. He's breaking the law.

[RedRage00]

Then the next time he comes back, he needs to go to jail. He's breaking the law.

Nah, I just asked him how he wanted his steak! :D

[okt0ber]

I wonder just how much of that SS check goes directly to those children? It sounds like ( just a guess) its paying for a new Ford. But yea, to be fair, we dont know all the facts.
It would be better if those funds that were available to those kids could be set aside until they became adults.
The mother should be doing what needs to be done to gain citizenship here.

Yeah.. I agree... but the money is supposed to be used to help raise the kids... not for the kids to blow after they turn 18...

What the irresponsible (supposedly) mom does with it is none of our business.

[RedRage00]

True story i used to work at HEB in my high school years. I got to witness a a Hispanic family of 3 leave the store with 8 shopping carts well worth over 2k. 1 basket loaded with meats, another with breads, fruits veggies etc. They paid with food stamps.... Yeah sure some of them are here to work hard, but for the most part their are many more taking the free ride. And for people who really need that assistance they do not receive it do to the illegals. Another example is college. The left over grant money that is often at times refundable through a check. Beginning of a semester its packed, the checks come in and they disappear... Sure its not only the immigrants, but its more of them than any other i can tell you.

That's funny because I worked at HEB all 4 years of my undergrad years. I saw more AMERICANS using foodstamps than illegals. Every time someone used food stamps it was some American with 5 kids. Then I would get an illegal guy with his family and guess what...they paid in CASH! And they actually bought food that they could cook and provide for their entire family....meats, vegetables, etc. The people on foodstamps buy nothing but junk food, frozen pizzas and stuff they can just throw at their kids really fast.

[JMSFan]

Nah, I just asked him how he wanted his steak! :D

:D

[RedRage00]

Yeah.. I agree... but the money is supposed to be used to help raise the kids... not for the kids to blow after they turn 18...

What the irresponsible (supposedly) mom does with it is none of our business.

No one knows this mom's personal life. They are all just assuming they know whats going on in her household. They don't have a clue.

[farmerfan]

That's funny because I worked at HEB all 4 years of my undergrad years. I saw more AMERICANS using foodstamps than illegals. Every time someone used food stamps it was some American with 5 kids. Then I would get an illegal guy with his family and guess what...they paid in CASH! And they actually bought food that they could cook and provide for their entire family....meats, vegetables, etc. The people on foodstamps buy nothing but junk food, frozen pizzas and stuff they can just throw at their kids really fast.

My first job ever was as a checker at Minyard Food Stores in Highland Village.
I experienced the same thing. The people using WIC or foodstamps were always the overweight toothless shaggy hair white trash from the shores of Lewisville Lake. The hispanics always paid in cash too. It amazed me then and I hadn't really thought back on that until I read your post.

Rage where you at in the metromess?
I just moved to Euless last weekend.

[okt0ber]

Then the next time he comes back, he needs to go to jail. He's breaking the law.

Great, I'm paying for him to be in jail. I'd rather pay for the wellfare and have them work.

[okt0ber]

My first job ever was as a checker at Minyard Food Stores in Highland Village.
I experienced the same thing. The people using WIC or foodstamps were always the overweight toothless shaggy hair white trash from the shores of Lewisville Lake. The hispanics always paid in cash too. It amazed me then and I hadn't really thought back on that until I read your post.

Rage where you at in the metromess?
I just moved to Euless last weekend.


He's in Arlington. Why did you move to Useless?

[farmerfan]

He's in Arlington. Why did you move to Useless?

closer to my job and the areas I work in. Plus needed to get out of Denton.
I found myself getting back into the life of a college student and it was starting to take the focus off of my career.
Instead of driving 42 miles one way to work, I now drive 14.

[okt0ber]

closer to my job and the areas I work in. Plus needed to get out of Denton.
I found myself getting back into the life of a college student and it was starting to take the focus off of my career.
Instead of driving 42 miles one way to work, I now drive 14.

Denton=ghetto

[the_phoenix612]

Unless the "conservative" party shapes up and pulls their head out, you can count on a "blue" majority just like you count on a "red" majority right now.

Conservatives and the hispanic community could find a lot of common ground, but as long as "conservatism" is synonymous with xenophobia and gloom and doom clash of civilizations rhetoric, there will be no reconciliation. Republicans are handing Texas to the Democratic party ad infinitum with their refusal to consider a sensible immigration party, just as surely as the Dems handed the South to the Republicans with Civil Rights.

Enjoy digging your own grave through a refusal to compromise......it's fun to watch.

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

[the_phoenix612]

Denton=ghetto

some parts, definitely.
TWU got the good side of town with all the fun stuff.
We're stuck with Sack n' Save D:

[KT2000]

My first job ever was as a checker at Minyard Food Stores in Highland Village.
I experienced the same thing. The people using WIC or foodstamps were always the overweight toothless shaggy hair white trash from the shores of Lewisville Lake. The hispanics always paid in cash too. It amazed me then and I hadn't really thought back on that until I read your post.

Welfare doesn't exist (at least in large scale form) in Mexico or any Central American countries I've heard of. I do know that Mexico has started some initiative recently, but it is very grassroots level aid from what I understand. The only way to feed yourself and your family is cash. The only way to get that is work. Aside from turning to organized crime perhaps, there is no other way to do it.

Why do you think they are so motivated to find work and do skill labor jobs that most "average Joe Americans" wouldn't even consider? I'd venture to guess 99.9% of illegal immigrants come here for one thing and that is $.

Immigrants responded to the great capitalist principle of supply and demand in the skill labor fields, and I can't find much fault with that. I believe illegal immigrants already here should be provided a path to citizenship. This would eliminate a good chunk of any gray areas that might exist. I believe that we should open every possible avenue to integrate immigrants as Americans.

In many highly conflicted parts of the globe, this integration is non-existant across the board (financially, socially, politically, etc.). I don't think that is a coincidence. I think that if we become too isolationist as a country, we will fall into the same holes and create the same chasms in society that we see in many struggling cultures.

[the_phoenix612]

Welfare doesn't exist (at least in large scale form) in Mexico or any Central American countries I've heard of. I do know that Mexico has started some initiative recently, but it is very grassroots level aid from what I understand. The only way to feed yourself and your family is cash. The only way to get that is work. Aside from turning to organized crime perhaps, there is no other way to do it.

Why do you think they are so motivated to find work and do skill labor jobs that most "average Joe Americans" wouldn't even consider? I'd venture to guess 99.9% of illegal immigrants come here for one thing and that is $.

Immigrants responded to the great capitalist principle of supply and demand in the skill labor fields, and I can't find much fault with that. I believe illegal immigrants already here should be provided a path to citizenship. This would eliminate a good chunk of any gray areas that might exist. I believe that we should open every possible avenue to integrate immigrants as Americans.

In many highly conflicted parts of the globe, this integration is non-existant across the board (financially, socially, politically, etc.). I don't think that is a coincidence. I think that if we become too isolationist as a country, we will fall into the same holes and create the same chasms in society that we see in many struggling cultures.

:notworthy:notworthy

[tayb]

Welfare doesn't exist (at least in large scale form) in Mexico or any Central American countries I've heard of. I do know that Mexico has started some initiative recently, but it is very grassroots level aid from what I understand. The only way to feed yourself and your family is cash. The only way to get that is work. Aside from turning to organized crime perhaps, there is no other way to do it.

Why do you think they are so motivated to find work and do skill labor jobs that most "average Joe Americans" wouldn't even consider? I'd venture to guess 99.9% of illegal immigrants come here for one thing and that is $.

Immigrants responded to the great capitalist principle of supply and demand in the skill labor fields, and I can't find much fault with that. I believe illegal immigrants already here should be provided a path to citizenship. This would eliminate a good chunk of any gray areas that might exist. I believe that we should open every possible avenue to integrate immigrants as Americans.

In many highly conflicted parts of the globe, this integration is non-existant across the board (financially, socially, politically, etc.). I don't think that is a coincidence. I think that if we become too isolationist as a country, we will fall into the same holes and create the same chasms in society that we see in many struggling cultures.

Everyone is motivated by $ not just illegal immigrants. My problem is just ALLOWING them a path to citizenship with just a slap on the wrist while they have broken US laws by being here illegally. If I break the law I am punished and just because "they have good intentions and are just trying to make money for their poor families" doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished for their actions all the same. If they want equal rights as legal citizens they need to face the music.

The problem is what kind of "punishment" to enact. You can't heavily tax them because they would just assume stay here illegally than give up their money. You can't give them a prison sentence because that cost too much money. I'm thinking some sort of government works project, planting trees, building bridges, stuff like what FDR did with the new deal. I don't know, just something to punish them for their actions in a manner that could be beneficial for America and not too demoralizing for the illegals.

[KT2000]

Everyone is motivated by $ not just illegal immigrants. My problem is just ALLOWING them a path to citizenship with just a slap on the wrist while they have broken US laws by being here illegally. If I break the law I am punished and just because "they have good intentions and are just trying to make money for their poor families" doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished for their actions all the same. If they want equal rights as legal citizens they need to face the music.

I don't know, just something to punish them for their actions in a manner that could be beneficial for America and not too demoralizing for the illegals.

Unless someone comes up with a plan to deport 7-20 million people, I don't see how any punishment plan is workable. I do believe we should enforce the rules we do have at the border, and that has actually improved since 9/11. I don't think a physical barrier is the answer either.

If I lived in close proximity to a country that'd increase my income exponentially in an instant, I'd turn into Michael Phelps or Carl Lewis real friggin' quick when it came to crossing a border.

As to the last paragraph quote above, I'd say the kind of jobs many of them work are adequate compensation to this country. If they are showing up and not working, then I'd be more in line with the "round 'em up" philosophy.

But for the illegal immigrants already here, I don't know of a viable alternative other than presenting them with a path to legitimacy. As a result, the choice is completely in their hands as to whether or not they take advantage of opportunity.

[drgnbkr]

Welfare doesn't exist (at least in large scale form) in Mexico or any Central American countries I've heard of. I do know that Mexico has started some initiative recently, but it is very grassroots level aid from what I understand. The only way to feed yourself and your family is cash. The only way to get that is work. Aside from turning to organized crime perhaps, there is no other way to do it.

Why do you think they are so motivated to find work and do skill labor jobs that most "average Joe Americans" wouldn't even consider? I'd venture to guess 99.9% of illegal immigrants come here for one thing and that is $.

Immigrants responded to the great capitalist principle of supply and demand in the skill labor fields, and I can't find much fault with that. I believe illegal immigrants already here should be provided a path to citizenship. This would eliminate a good chunk of any gray areas that might exist. I believe that we should open every possible avenue to integrate immigrants as Americans.

In many highly conflicted parts of the globe, this integration is non-existant across the board (financially, socially, politically, etc.). I don't think that is a coincidence. I think that if we become too isolationist as a country, we will fall into the same holes and create the same chasms in society that we see in many struggling cultures.

It is not isolationist to solidly secure the borders, then institute a logical and orderly immigration system. Our health care system is flooded with illegals and is going completely broke in California. We (our elected's) have to act quickly on this or there will be nothing left...and that is not an alarmist position.

[t-long20]

If its so terrible for them, then why are they here?

Have you ever been to Mexico, let alone try to make a living there? You don't think that they actually TRY to make it over there first?

[tayb]

Unless someone comes up with a plan to deport 7-20 million people, I don't see how any punishment plan is workable. I do believe we should enforce the rules we do have at the border, and that has actually improved since 9/11. I don't think a physical barrier is the answer either.

If I lived in close proximity to a country that'd increase my income exponentially in an instant, I'd turn into Michael Phelps or Carl Lewis real friggin' quick when it came to crossing a border.

As to the last paragraph quote above, I'd say the kind of jobs many of them work are adequate compensation to this country. If they are showing up and not working, then I'd be more in line with the "round 'em up" philosophy.

But for the illegal immigrants already here, I don't know of a viable alternative other than presenting them with a path to legitimacy. As a result, the choice is completely in their hands as to whether or not they take advantage of opportunity.

First, I don't agree with a free path to citizenship. The work they did was for pay (no matter how miniscule) and a lot of the money they made was sent back across the border into Mexico which hurts our economy because they aren't spending what they make. I don't agree that "work done while being paid" constitutes a fair punishment for breaking US laws and illegally immigrating.

Second, I never said I wanted to deport them or send them to jail. I recognize that they are an important working class but I also realize that they have broken our laws. You aren't allowed to break our laws. I could care less that their intentions are good and they have a sob-story about their family at home. I get arrested for dealing trying to help my poor cancer-ridden parents I am going to prison no matter how heart-warming my story is.

If we don't punish these illegal immigrants for their actions who in the world would make an attempt to come here legally? We would basically be sending a message to all immigrants that it is cheaper and easier to sneak across the border and be granted citizenship eventually than it is do to it lawfully. How does that make the rest of our laws look?

[t-long20]

Welfare doesn't exist (at least in large scale form) in Mexico or any Central American countries I've heard of. I do know that Mexico has started some initiative recently, but it is very grassroots level aid from what I understand. The only way to feed yourself and your family is cash. The only way to get that is work. Aside from turning to organized crime perhaps, there is no other way to do it.

Why do you think they are so motivated to find work and do skill labor jobs that most "average Joe Americans" wouldn't even consider? I'd venture to guess 99.9% of illegal immigrants come here for one thing and that is $.

Immigrants responded to the great capitalist principle of supply and demand in the skill labor fields, and I can't find much fault with that. I believe illegal immigrants already here should be provided a path to citizenship. This would eliminate a good chunk of any gray areas that might exist. I believe that we should open every possible avenue to integrate immigrants as Americans.

In many highly conflicted parts of the globe, this integration is non-existant across the board (financially, socially, politically, etc.). I don't think that is a coincidence. I think that if we become too isolationist as a country, we will fall into the same holes and create the same chasms in society that we see in many struggling cultures.


:notworthy:notworthy Even KT knows whats going on. Good post.

[t-long20]

The illegal immigrants only make up about 4% of the entire U.S. population.
Last month the ICE agents rounded up more than 400 illegal immigrant workers at Pilgrims Pride.
My chicken didnt cost any more this month than usual.
In fact, more actual LEGAL people were able to fill those jobs.
Take your gloom and doom message elsewhere, look at reality.

BWAHAHAHAHA!

400 is nothing compared to the millions who contribute and help keep this economy in shape. Think about the worse jobs in America and I can promise you an illegal is working there.

Janitors,garbage man,construction workers,landscaping, hotel room cleaners,agricultural etc. etc. You think prices are high now? Take away those blue collar workers and you'll have a protest over prices. Not as if you could find them anyway.

[okt0ber]

BWAHAHAHAHA!

400 is nothing compared to the millions who contribute and help keep this economy in shape. Think about the worse jobs in America and I can promise you an illegal is working there.

Janitors,garbage man,construction workers,landscaping, hotel room cleaners,agricultural etc. etc. You think prices are high now? Take away those blue collar workers and you'll have a protest over prices. Not as if you could find them anyway.

Those jobs could easily be filled with Detroit residents....

[tayb]

BWAHAHAHAHA!

400 is nothing compared to the millions who contribute and help keep this economy in shape. Think about the worse jobs in America and I can promise you an illegal is working there.

Janitors,garbage man,construction workers,landscaping, hotel room cleaners,agricultural etc. etc. You think prices are high now? Take away those blue collar workers and you'll have a protest over prices. Not as if you could find them anyway.

But just because they are working hard in SOME jobs that might not otherwise be filled does that mean we look the other way at the laws they have broken?

[KT2000]

If we don't punish these illegal immigrants for their actions who in the world would make an attempt to come here legally? We would basically be sending a message to all immigrants that it is cheaper and easier to sneak across the border and be granted citizenship eventually than it is do to it lawfully. How does that make the rest of our laws look?

It's certainly a double-edged sword and your first question above is very legit. This is a bed we helped make as a country.

I won't claim to have all the answers, but perhaps additional incentives could be put in place for those who do immigrate legally. I'd envision a kind of "point forward" plan designed to tackle the issue as it stands now in addition to a future course of action.

But for those already here, I favor presenting them a path so that there are no excuses or gray areas if they are caught. I'd rather try and integrate as opposed to creating further division via the large scale punishment it would take to address the current state of affairs.