Oprah's new "religion"

[The Dude]

youtube video about her new CULT (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA)

I never watch the broad so I just figured she was a great person with a good head on her shoulders by the things I've heard that she's done. However, I now realize she's a crazy :Censor: Not saying she's not a good person, because religion doesn't dictate that, but crap... I never thought I'd see this! The scary thing is that so many people are turning to this new belief and a lot of them are "Christians." It's sad to see someone with such an influence be so blind.

What exactly are they teaching?
things like:
- My mind is part of Gods, I am very holy
- My holiness is my salvation
- My salvation comes from me
- Let me remember that there is no sin
- Do not make the pathetic error of "clinging to the old rugged cross"
- The only message of the crucifixion is that you can overcome the cross

As you can see, all of these things are incredibly blasphemous and she is leading millions of people against God.

[The Dude]

What baffles me is how this whole mindset of her's came about. As she states in the video, she says her whole way of thinking changed one day when she was sitting in church and the preacher was using scripture and showing how great our God is and how he is jealous. She thinks he meant God is jealous of HER, and that because that makes no sense that a God who is EVERYTHING would be jealous of her, Christianity is obviously not right. Well sorry to tell you Oprah, but you took that scripture WAY out of context. God is jealous of the false things you idolize, such as this new crazy way of thinking. He loves you and is jealous of the love you show towards other things and not towards Him. It is crazy to me that she has turned against Christianity because of this misunderstanding of the scripture.

[drgnbkr]

What baffles me is how this whole mindset of her's came about. As she states in the video, she says her whole way of thinking changed one day when she was sitting in church and the preacher was using scripture and showing how great our God is and how he is jealous. She thinks he meant God is jealous of HER, and that because that makes no sense that a God who is EVERYTHING would be jealous of her, Christianity is obviously not right. Well sorry to tell you Oprah, but you took that scripture WAY out of context. God is jealous of the false things you idolize, such as this new crazy way of thinking. He loves you and is jealous of the love you show towards other things and not towards Him. It is crazy to me that she has turned against Christianity because of this misunderstanding of the scripture.

She use to sit a listen to the same preacher Obama is enamored with...maybe he warped her mind?

[slorch]

She use to sit a listen to the same preacher Obama is enamored with...maybe he warped her mind?

probably as badly as she warped the pew...

[Bobcat81]

This had to be going on for some time. I mean,..300,000 members on it's first meeting (March 3, 2008)??,..and now a little over a month later there are over 2,000,000,000?????

This reminds me of something my mother once told me about Oprah which must have been right after "9-11" sometime. She said there was cause to have concern about Oprah Winfrey but she didn't say what. I asked what it was about and all she could say was that she understood Oprah was turning the country against Christianity. I never gave it much thought because there was nothing there to support what was said.

Makes me wonder.. her support of Obama, attending the same church, rumors of his Muslim affiliation..Oprah turning the true meaning of the Bible into a different concept. Yeah.. I'm starting to see the reason for concern.

[t-long20]

She use to sit a listen to the same preacher Obama is enamored with...maybe he warped her mind?

Maybe not. Shes the richest woman on earth she obviously doesn't want to use her brain anymore. Heck with the money she has she can pay people to think for her.

[t-long20]

Makes me wonder.. her support of Obama, attending the same church, rumors of his Muslim affiliation..Oprah turning the true meaning of the Bible into a different concept. Yeah.. I'm starting to see the reason for concern.

Some of you will turn the most irrelevant threads into an "Obama thread". Whats next? Obama and Oprah were highschool sweethearts? What are you concerned about? Apparently McCain has nothing to fear and has enough ammo to beat Obama if he wins.

[t-long20]

dp

[Firebird]

The video is basically a commercial for some guy's book. Most of the claims that he makes do indeed come from a hodge-podge of Oprah's gurus-spiritual friends that she has been promoting recently. Most are from A Course in Miracles (ACIM) and the others are from Eckhart Tolle.

ACIM has been around for some time and is the source of most of the really controversial quotes. It has taken on a renewed spotlight because of the "O"'s promotion of it. I'd describe it mostly as an assortment of neo-gnostic/new age beliefes culled cafeteria style with a thin veneer of liberal Protestantism. It's absolutely bad theology and as is the case with most bad theology is made doubly so because of the kernels of truth buried within it. It has little resemblence to anything J. Wright would ever have taught. Even a quick listen to some of his more inflammatory moments should make folks realize that Wright has plenty of room for sin in his theology-- an absolute contradiction to ACIM.

Wright's theology, for all of its concentration on black liberation and Africa, is pretty much squarely within the range of orthodox Christology and sotierology. Here's the TUCC Statement of Faith which is not only thoroughly orthodox but diametrically opposed to ACIM and Oprah's theology. I've bolded the most important parts:

We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being, create persons in your own image,and set before each one the ways of life and death. You seek in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin. You judge people and nations by your righteous will declared through prophets and apostles. In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself. You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races. You call us into your church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be your servants in the service of others, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil,to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory. You promise to all who trust you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in your realm which has no end. Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto you. Amen.


He doesn't debate the historical reality of Jesus, the Incarnation, Christ's unique role in salvation and redemption, the existence of sin, and the need for salvation through someone other than yourself. ACIM debates all of those things. There's no use trying to connect the dots through Oprah-- it's a bit like saying that a person became a Jehova's Witness because he listened to a Mormon preacher. The two are both considerably different from mainstream Christianity but are also fundamentally different from each other. (The analogy isn't perfect because as I stated earlier, Wright teaches fairly orthodox theology when it comes to the fundamentals-- where he differs is in emphasis and racial politics.)

What any of this has to do with Obama and Muslims is beyond me. A Muslim would be completely mystified by ACIM and Eckhart Tolle. To further the analogy, it's as if we are trying to draw connecting lines between Catholicism, Hinduism, and Scientology.

[Favpack]

Something else for Christians that sit around worrying all day long to worry about. Sigh.

[Bobcat81]

Some of you will turn the most irrelevant threads into an "Obama thread". Whats next? Obama and Oprah were highschool sweethearts? What are you concerned about? Apparently McCain has nothing to fear and has enough ammo to beat Obama if he wins.

There's enough to be concerned on any of the current candidates as far as i'm concerned. McCain can't tell his left from his right, No one knows what's up Obama's sleeve but Obama, and Hillary??.. well, she's really a guy named "Bill" prancing around after a sex change! ;)

[slorch]

Some of you will turn the most irrelevant threads into an "Obama thread". Whats next? Obama and Oprah were highschool sweethearts? What are you concerned about? Apparently McCain has nothing to fear and has enough ammo to beat Obama if he wins.

it is relevant. Your instant denial and defense of Obama is no less blind.

[Slim-Rob]

Some of you will turn the most irrelevant threads into an "Obama thread". Whats next? Obama and Oprah were highschool sweethearts? What are you concerned about? Apparently McCain has nothing to fear and has enough ammo to beat Obama if he wins.

you are really sensitive when it comes to Obama...man crush?

[jakerz]

you are really sensitive when it comes to Obama...man crush?

...he's got a crush on Obama!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU

:eek:

[t-long20]

it is relevant. Your instant denial and defense of Obama is no less blind.

Relevant how? Obama will lose all of his supporters from looking at a youtube video? Nice try slorch.
Please refer to firebirds post, atleast he looks at both side before shouting "OBAMA"!!!

What any of this has to do with Obama and Muslims is beyond me. A Muslim would be completely mystified by ACIM and Eckhart Tolle. To further the analogy, it's as if we are trying to draw connecting lines between Catholicism, Hinduism, and Scientology.

[t-long20]

you are really sensitive when it comes to Obama...man crush?

Only if you have a man-crush with McCain.;)

[t-long20]

...he's got a crush on Obama!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU

:eek:

Obama girl.:notworthy

[Slim-Rob]

Only if you have a man-crush with McCain.;)

haha na...i support hillary then obama then micky

[stevefoxsc]

looks like the new Scientology

[Slim-Rob]

...he's got a crush on Obama!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU

:eek:

i wish I was obama...

you can boRock me tonight...wow.

[t-long20]

haha na...i support hillary then obama then micky

You might want to change your mind. Hillary is :Censor: Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5jyTc6rnbI

[Slim-Rob]

You might want to change your mind. Hillary is :Censor: Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5jyTc6rnbI

yeah lol i've seen that one. :eek::D

[Firebird]

it is relevant. Your instant denial and defense of Obama is no less blind.

I am in about 100% disagreement with you. Celebrity endorsement of candidates is about the absolute least relevant thing in American politics IMHO. It's irrelevant that Chuck Norris endorsed Huck and it is irrelevant that Oprah endorsed Obama.

Obama grabbed one of the biggest names in American entertainment. That's all. Oprah's hippy-dippy obsession will ACIM and other new-age nonsense is about as irrelevant as anything gets, ever.

[AE 8008]

Something else for Christians that sit around worrying all day long to worry about. Sigh.


i dont find it troublesome. the only way i can see it as troublesome is if one is unsure of his own faith. something as silly as that cant just up and change me.

i dont see her religion going very far. and if it does, then the church leaders across america will have to make a schism - then we will really find out who is a "Christian" and who never was.

[Firebird]

i dont find it troublesome. the only way i can see it as troublesome is if one is unsure of his own faith. something as silly as that cant just up and change me.

i dont see her religion going very far. and if it does, then the church leaders across america will have to make a schism - then we will really find out who is a "Christian" and who never was.


It's not Oprah's religion, really...it's something that Oprah has embraced and chosen to promote.

I agree that it is silly, though.

[Bobcat81]

I am in about 100% disagreement with you. Celebrity endorsement of candidates is about the absolute least relevant thing in American politics IMHO. It's irrelevant that Chuck Norris endorsed Huck and it is irrelevant that Oprah endorsed Obama.

Obama grabbed one of the biggest names in American entertainment. That's all. Oprah's hippy-dippy obsession will ACIM and other new-age nonsense is about as irrelevant as anything gets, ever.

I would have to disagree.

As i understand it, an endorsement would mean "support" and therefor an acceptance of the ideals, goals, objectives, etc. of whom is being represented. In the case of the text,..Oprah supporting Obama. Just because she has celebrity status doesn't really change much. It is relevant (to me) that she attended Wright's church and received the same religious tutoring that Obama did. She's discussed Obama on her show with which she had to have had some prior knowlegde about his past, and encouraged others to support him, therefor she must believe in Obama and what he stands for.

The key affiliation i'm speaking of here is the "chruch"- headed by Jeremiah Wright, which both of them have openly attended. From a voters perspective, that type of affiliation means a lot.

[The Dude]

Alright I really didn't mean for this to turn into an Obama thread, as much as I don't support the guy either, we've had enough of those. The fact that Oprah had at one time attended the same church as Obama is indeed irrelevant to the topic at hand here in this thread. As radical as Rev. Wright's views may be about blacks and America, his Christian beliefs and views about salvation are completely contradicting to those of Oprah's newly found beliefs in this "new age" religion, so it really has nothing to do with her support of Obama in this aspect.

[t-long20]

Here we go again. KT get ready to lock this thread soon.

[Firebird]

I would have to disagree.

As i understand it, an endorsement would mean "support" and therefor an acceptance of the ideals, goals, objectives, etc. of whom is being represented. In the case of the text,..Oprah supporting Obama. Just because she has celebrity status doesn't really change much. It is relevant (to me) that she attended Wright's church and received the same religious tutoring that Obama did. She's discussed Obama on her show with which she had to have had some prior knowlegde about his past, and encouraged others to support him, therefor she must believe in Obama and what he stands for.

The key affiliation i'm speaking of here is the "chruch"- headed by Jeremiah Wright, which both of them have openly attended. From a voters perspective, that type of affiliation means a lot.

Exactly....Oprah supports/endorses Obama and not the other way around. Oprah's bizarre religious choices have no bearing on anything. They are not shared by Obama and it is not something that Oprah learned from Wright

Oprah abandoned TUCC and her relationship with Wright is strained. Wright's publically criticized Oprah's faith as early as 2002. Here are some quotes from him about her in Christianity Today:

In a column for a recent issue of Black Collegian magazine, Wright mentioned Oprah as an example of African Americans who forget their roots in the church after finding success. "A lot of us do not even like the word faith anymore," he wrote. "We prefer the more chic-sounding word, spirituality! We are caught up in an Oprah-generated mentality and a 12-step vocabulary that prevents us from using the very words and the very bridge that 'brought us over!' "

"She has broken with the [traditional faith]," he says. "She now has this sort of 'God is everywhere, God is in me, I don't need to go to church, I don't need to be a part of a body of believers, I can meditate, I can do positive thinking' spirituality. It's a strange gospel. It has nothing to do with the church Jesus Christ founded."

In short, Rev. Wright has openly criticized Oprah for the very same reason most conservative Christians do. Oprah used to go to Wright's Church, then stopped when she plunged into neo-gnosticism. The only thing she and Wright share is support for Obama. Could it be that both of them simply like a liberal African-American candidate, and not part of a cabal out to destroy Christianity through the US Presidential election? The tortuous logic and winding path some of you are following is truly astounding.

[slorch]

I am in about 100% disagreement with you. Celebrity endorsement of candidates is about the absolute least relevant thing in American politics IMHO. It's irrelevant that Chuck Norris endorsed Huck and it is irrelevant that Oprah endorsed Obama.

Obama grabbed one of the biggest names in American entertainment. That's all. Oprah's hippy-dippy obsession will ACIM and other new-age nonsense is about as irrelevant as anything gets, ever.

Oprah's endorsement is different in that she has a following that actually listens to her, ala her book picks, and their influence.

Otherwise, when it comes to frootloops like Alec baldwin& Company, i could give a flat flying facial:Censor: what they say. We are in agreement there.

[slorch]

Here we go again. KT get ready to lock this thread soon.

waving the white flag?;):p

[RedRage00]

I think there are plenty of people worse than Oprah that Christians should worry about.

How about all the murderers and rapists....child molesters just to name a few.

Oprah seems to be helping a lot of people on her new show "The Big Give"
I don't think she's asking them what their religion is before she helps them out.

[Firebird]

Oprah's endorsement is different in that she has a following that actually listens to her, ala her book picks, and their influence.

Otherwise, when it comes to frootloops like Alec baldwin& Company, i could give a flat flying facial:Censor: what they say. We are in agreement there.


The influence Oprah wields is truly astounding but I really don't see how her consumerist version of gnosticism plays too much of a role. Oprah could command her legions of housewives to wrap themselves in foil and build a spaceship out of empty soup cans in preparation for trans-dimensional flight to Zargon-5....and I think they'd do it. It's all just a schtick IMHO.

[The Dude]

Slorch is right in that Oprah is probably the most influencial celebrity in this matter. Most people really don't give a crap who Chuck Norris endorses, but Oprah is seen as a world changer and she is placed at a posistion of power because of her large following. I do think that her endorsements could have a larger effect than some politicians that most people have never heard of. But..I really didn't want this to turn into a political thread. I just wanted to expose this crazy :Censor: new religion that Oprah is buying into and getting so many other people to blindly follow her. WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA. So let's try to keep to keep the discussion to that, or yes, KT, please lock it before it gets out of hand if we can't do that.

[slorch]

I think there are plenty of people worse than Oprah that Christians should worry about.

How about all the murderers and rapists....child molesters just to name a few.

Oprah seems to be helping a lot of people on her new show "The Big Give"
I don't think she's asking them what their religion is before she helps them out.

are you setting the bar for Oprah like that?

I worry about everyone as a Christian. That's just the way it is. no one is without fault.

[slorch]

two different people suggesting a "lock" before anything even gets heated?

when did all of the eunochs(sp) get here?

[t-long20]

waving the white flag?;):p

Possibly.

[RedRage00]

are you setting the bar for Oprah like that?

I worry about everyone as a Christian. That's just the way it is. no one is without fault.

Yeah, but that is whats wrong with most Christians. They want to worry about everyone else's lives when they really should focus on their own.

So Oprah's "religion" isn't in line with your beliefs? Who cares?! Most of you know that I don't believe in organized religion (Oprahs' or Christianity). Her religion isn't any different than yours.....a bunch of blind followers. I believe in a God, but I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I have my own personal relationship with God.

I didn't realize Oprah was such a bad human being :rolleyes: But I guess when you're not a Christian you are just a bad person :rolleyes:

[The Dude]

Slorch, I would love to debate with anyone on Obama at any given time of the day. Just out of respect for the KTs and their board, I didn't want this thread that had nothing to do with politics when I started it, to turn into a political debate. It was merely a exposure to a scary truth that too many "Christians" are being fooled into a false belief, mainly because the pathetic reality that these people are so into it's newest, biggest supporter (Oprah)

Not that I am in anyway saying these are the days of the end of time, but as Revelations says, when that time does come, Good will be called bad and Evil will be called good. It just concerned me how rapidly this new belief is already growing.

[t-long20]

are you setting the bar for Oprah like that?

I worry about everyone as a Christian. That's just the way it is. no one is without fault.

Any true christian should look beyond this nonsense that Oprah is saying. Some people are just easily swayed or support Oprah untill the end, yes its very sad.

[slorch]

Yeah, but that is whats wrong with most Christians. They want to worry about everyone else's lives when they really should focus on their own.

So Oprah's "religion" isn't in line with your beliefs? Who cares?! Most of you know that I don't believe in organized religion (Oprahs' or Christianity). Her religion isn't any different than yours.....a bunch of blind followers. I believe in a God, but I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I have my own personal relationship with God.

I didn't realize Oprah was such a bad human being :rolleyes: But I guess when you're not a Christian you are just a bad person :rolleyes:

good deeds do nothing for your salvation. yes they are Christlike, but doing them doesn't make you better in God's eyes. I'm not condemning her, just saying her rather existential theology is different from mine.

I struggle with your generalizations about how Christians force their views on everyone. i get told to to keep those views to myself because they might offend someone way more often than I offer unsolicited advice on my beliefs.

[slorch]

Any true christian should look beyond this nonsense that Oprah is saying. Some people are just easily swayed or support Oprah untill the end, yes its very sad.

true on both accounts, especially the first, but silence is acceptance. i do not accept her postion as anything other than an ill formed opinion.

[The Dude]

And RedRage,I'm not sure if that was directed at one person or the entirety of this group, but I don't want you to mistake me for calling Oprah a "bad human being." I said that in my original post and I'll repeat it again.

I don't judge someone's character on their religion. I do believe in what the Bible says and solely in what it says, so I do believe Oprah will not be going to Heaven based on her beliefs and mine. But I don't say she's not going to Heaven because I said so, but because Jesus Christ said so. Jesus said I am the way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the father except through me. She denies that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. A man named Jesus of Nazareth lived, as believed by far more people besides just Christians. However, he is often considered just a "wise man" or a "prophet" outside of Christian belief. However, you can't label Jesus in that way. Jesus claimed to be the son of God. So you have to either label Jesus as a complete lunatic who really thought he was God, the greatest liar of all time, or in fact the Holy son of God. But I think the complete lunatic one is easy to discard because I highly doubt a crazy man would have had the following Jesus had in his day. There's no way to explain the documented miracles he performed either. I guess though you can say a psycho who really thought he was who he said he was would go through the torture of cruxifiction if he was really that into it. But again, I think the lunatic theory is pretty easy to throw out. So that brings us to the liar theory. If Jesus is this one, he's fooled millions and millions of people throughout history, has a book(the Bible) that has lasted centuries and must've just been one crazy good magician or something. I really don't think Jesus would've had the following he did if he couldn't perform all the things he said he could. So to me that only leaves one answer and that is that Jesus Christ is indeed the son of God.

But in no way am I trying to say Oprah is "hell-bound" because she's a "bad person" I think she's done an incredible amount of good for this world and she's obviously not a "bad person" or she wouldn't have such a huge following. On the other side of the token, I do believe there are "bad people" that ARE going to Heaven. That's the beauty of Christianity. It's not based on what we do as people. We're called to live good lives that are pleasing to the Lord, but we all fall short of perfection because we are all sinners. The word sin comes from a Greek(or Hebrew, I don't remember exactly) word "Harmatia" (sp?) Which was an archery term meaning to not hit the bullseye. So anything that falls short of "perfection" is essentiall "sin." And since the Bible says "for ALL have sinned and fall short the Glory of God" ...essentially no one, no matter how good of lives they have led, are "worthy" of Heaven. But Christ bridged that gap between sinners and Heaven with his death on the cross by bearing the sin of all. So to accept that and believe in your heart that Jesus is God and died for you and through Him is the only path to Heaven, is indeed the only path to Heaven. I don't give a crap how "good" or "bad" a person is. Sure I want to live a "good" life and help others to do the same, but fortunately for us, that's not what dictates our salvation..or else we'd all be screwed. And I'm not trying to "force" this on anyone. Just stating what I believe to be true and what the Bible says to be true. If I didn't feel it in my own life and see it at work everyday, and see how it the Lord has completely changed the person I was and if I didn't have a personal relationship with him where I feel him working in my life, I wouldn't sit here and say all this. It would be stupid for me to sit here and believe all this if I didn't KNOW it to be true by the experiences I've had. God is a powerful, powerful being. Too many people make the mistake of thinking he just has human capablities and qualities like us, so how could he do all these things that are claimed God does.... but he's God, not a person.

[the_phoenix612]

can someone please logically explain to me the difference between a religion and a cult?
an explanation that doesn't include sniping at other people's faiths would be much appreciated.
do i ask too much?

[the_phoenix612]

And RedRage,I'm not sure if that was directed at one person or the entirety of this group, but I don't want you to mistake me for calling Oprah a "bad human being." I said that in my original post and I'll repeat it again.

I don't judge someone's character on their religion. I do believe in what the Bible says and solely in what it says, so I do believe Oprah will not be going to Heaven based on her beliefs and mine. But I don't say she's not going to Heaven because I said so, but because Jesus Christ said so. Jesus said I am the way, the Truth, and the Light, and no one comes to the father except through me. She denies that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. A man named Jesus of Nazareth lived, as believed by far more people besides just Christians. However, he is often considered just a "wise man" or a "prophet" outside of Christian belief. However, you can't label Jesus in that way. Jesus claimed to be the son of God. So you have to either label Jesus as a complete lunatic who really thought he was God, the greatest liar of all time, or in fact the Holy son of God. But I think the complete lunatic one is easy to discard because I highly doubt a crazy man would have had the following Jesus had in his day. There's no way to explain the documented miracles he performed either. I guess though you can say a psycho who really thought he was who he said he was would go through the torture of cruxifiction if he was really that into it. But again, I think the lunatic theory is pretty easy to throw out. So that brings us to the liar theory. If Jesus is this one, he's fooled millions and millions of people throughout history, has a book(the Bible) that has lasted centuries and must've just been one crazy good magician or something. I really don't think Jesus would've had the following he did if he couldn't perform all the things he said he could. So to me that only leaves one answer and that is that Jesus Christ is indeed the son of God.

But in no way am I trying to say Oprah is "hell-bound" because she's a "bad person" I think she's done an incredible amount of good for this world and she's obviously not a "bad person" or she wouldn't have such a huge following. On the other side of the token, I do believe there are "bad people" that ARE going to Heaven. That's the beauty of Christianity. It's not based on what we do as people. We're called to live good lives that are pleasing to the Lord, but we all fall short of perfection because we are all sinners. The word sin comes from a Greek(or Hebrew, I don't remember exactly) word "Harmatia" (sp?) Which was an archery term meaning to not hit the bullseye. So anything that falls short of "perfection" is essentiall "sin." And since the Bible says "for ALL have sinned and fall short the Glory of God" ...essentially no one, no matter how good of lives they have led, are "worthy" of Heaven. But Christ bridged that gap between sinners and Heaven with his death on the cross by bearing the sin of all. So to accept that and believe in your heart that Jesus is God and died for you and through Him is the only path to Heaven, is indeed the only path to Heaven. I don't give a crap how "good" or "bad" a person is. Sure I want to live a "good" life and help others to do the same, but fortunately for us, that's not what dictates our salvation..or else we'd all be screwed.

"documented miracles"
PLEASE elaborate.

[Hoodleboy80]

I have to say, I'm not going to jump on someone just because they believe in something I don't. As long as it doesn't consist of ****, underage forced marriages, killing people for your religion (that sort of thing, ya'll know what I'm saying), I can coexist with them. Maybe I'm just not the type of person to be convincing people of my religion, I've just always tried to show my religion through my actions. I hate to talk about it because it can be so controversial, and I hate to get into arguments with people I respect so much on this board, especially over things like religion or politics.

[Bobcat81]

Exactly....Oprah supports/endorses Obama and not the other way around. Oprah's bizarre religious choices have no bearing on anything. They are not shared by Obama and it is not something that Oprah learned from Wright

Oprah abandoned TUCC and her relationship with Wright is strained. Wright's publically criticized Oprah's faith as early as 2002. Here are some quotes from him about her in Christianity Today:



In short, Rev. Wright has openly criticized Oprah for the very same reason most conservative Christians do. Oprah used to go to Wright's Church, then stopped when she plunged into neo-gnosticism. The only thing she and Wright share is support for Obama. Could it be that both of them simply like a liberal African-American candidate, and not part of a cabal out to destroy Christianity through the US Presidential election? The tortuous logic and winding path some of you are following is truly astounding.

Either way, Oprah doesn't stand to gain much & is probably regretting the support of Obama. (I would be if i were in her shoes).

Back on topic,

Oprah's living up to the expectations of the Hollywood environment..."Toss your souls to the wind and free your mind from logic!"

[The Dude]

"documented miracles"
PLEASE elaborate.

I am speaking of the miracles documented in the Bible. Not trying to say they were documented in some secular writing else where. (however, they could be, I don't know, I'm no scholar.) But to me it just seems logical that someone would stand up somewhere and say that's a bunch of crap he didn't do any of that stuff when the stories were being told and written back then. It's up to you to believe that or not, I'm not trying to impose anything on you. But I'm not willing to take the risk of being wrong. I can live my life believing the Bible and die and there be nothing and I'd never know I chose the wrong path because...I'm dead and I'm dead. Or I could ignore it and live my life for ME, and then come to find out this whole Christianity thing was true, but be sitting in Hell for eternity wishing I could go back and have a 2nd chance to do it over again. So I'm not willing to take that risk. Not that life turned into rainbows and butterflies when I became a Christian my sophomore year in high school, but I can honestly say I've felt the presence of the Lord in my life and have seen the incredible things He has done, that have no other explanation except for God is real.

[the_phoenix612]

I am speaking of the miracles documented in the Bible. Not trying to say they were documented in some secular writing else where. (however, they could be, I don't know, I'm no scholar.) But to me it just seems logical that someone would stand up somewhere and say that's a bunch of crap he didn't do any of that stuff when the stories were being told and written back then. It's up to you to believe that or not, I'm not trying to impose anything on you.

see, the biggest issue I've always had with the Bible is that it offers itself as proof of itself.
and people did stand up and call the alleged persona of Jesus all sorts of stuff, there are writings from that time period that aren't included in the King James bible, including a few that claim to be Gospels. And a few that portray Jesus as a mortal man with a wife. and kids....

[mojotrain]

I think there are plenty of people worse than Oprah that Christians should worry about.

How about all the murderers and rapists....child molesters just to name a few.

Oprah seems to be helping a lot of people on her new show "The Big Give"
I don't think she's asking them what their religion is before she helps them out.

RR, Christians do worry about more than just Opra. The ones you mentioned and many more. It's in "The Book" it's what they are taught that they should do. My small church gave nearly 400,000 dollars to a missionary program this year alone because we worry. They also won't ask the religion of those who they help but they do try to teach them Christianity. Opra is simply a missionary for whatever it is she supports.

Christianity, or being a Christian, is very hard thing. Not being a Christian takes no effort at all. I'm not judging, but if Christianity were easy, everybody would be one. Something you might think about.

[Bobcat81]

Yeah, but that is whats wrong with most Christians. They want to worry about everyone else's lives when they really should focus on their own.

So Oprah's "religion" isn't in line with your beliefs? Who cares?! Most of you know that I don't believe in organized religion (Oprahs' or Christianity). Her religion isn't any different than yours.....a bunch of blind followers. I believe in a God, but I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I have my own personal relationship with God.

I didn't realize Oprah was such a bad human being :rolleyes: But I guess when you're not a Christian you are just a bad person :rolleyes:

The only reason it's concerning at all (imo) is because she is regarded as a highly influential person from many aspects of society. That really carries a lot of weight & can affect a lot of things. If it were someone that was not given as much credit by followers, then it wouldn't bother me as much. But really, influential people have the power to change our way of life, and that can be pretty scary.

[the_phoenix612]

RR, Christians do worry about more than just Opra. The ones you mentioned and many more. It's in "The Book" it's what they are taught that they should do. My small church gave nearly 400,000 dollars to a missionary program this year alone because we worry. They also won't ask the religion of those who they help but they do try to teach them Christianity. Opra is simply a missionary for whatever it is she supports.

Christianity, or being a Christian, is very hard thing. Not being a Christian takes no effort at all. I'm not judging, but if Christianity were easy, everybody would be one. Something you might think about.

if you are a Xian because your parents were, and thats how you were raised, I dont see how that is hard.

thinking for yourself and deciding what you choose to follow and casting off your parentally instilled prejudices is hard.

dealing with persecution every day even in a country that claims to be free is hard.

going along with your parents, dragging yourself to church every sunday, and living by morals every decent human being can agree on is not hard.

this isnt to say some Xians dont have it hard, but american Xians dont.

EDIT: Xian = christian

[Bobcat81]

And RedRage,I'm not sure if that was directed at one person or the entirety of this group, but I don't want you to mistake me for calling Oprah a "bad human being." I said that in my original post and I'll repeat it again.

I don't judge someone's character on their religion. I do believe in what the Bible says and solely in what it says, so I do believe Oprah will not be going to Heaven based on her beliefs and mine. But I don't say she's not going to Heaven because I said so, but because Jesus Christ said so. Jesus said I am the way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the father except through me. She denies that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. A man named Jesus of Nazareth lived, as believed by far more people besides just Christians. However, he is often considered just a "wise man" or a "prophet" outside of Christian belief. However, you can't label Jesus in that way. Jesus claimed to be the son of God. So you have to either label Jesus as a complete lunatic who really thought he was God, the greatest liar of all time, or in fact the Holy son of God. But I think the complete lunatic one is easy to discard because I highly doubt a crazy man would have had the following Jesus had in his day. There's no way to explain the documented miracles he performed either. I guess though you can say a psycho who really thought he was who he said he was would go through the torture of cruxifiction if he was really that into it. But again, I think the lunatic theory is pretty easy to throw out. So that brings us to the liar theory. If Jesus is this one, he's fooled millions and millions of people throughout history, has a book(the Bible) that has lasted centuries and must've just been one crazy good magician or something. I really don't think Jesus would've had the following he did if he couldn't perform all the things he said he could. So to me that only leaves one answer and that is that Jesus Christ is indeed the son of God.

But in no way am I trying to say Oprah is "hell-bound" because she's a "bad person" I think she's done an incredible amount of good for this world and she's obviously not a "bad person" or she wouldn't have such a huge following. On the other side of the token, I do believe there are "bad people" that ARE going to Heaven. That's the beauty of Christianity. It's not based on what we do as people. We're called to live good lives that are pleasing to the Lord, but we all fall short of perfection because we are all sinners. The word sin comes from a Greek(or Hebrew, I don't remember exactly) word "Harmatia" (sp?) Which was an archery term meaning to not hit the bullseye. So anything that falls short of "perfection" is essentiall "sin." And since the Bible says "for ALL have sinned and fall short the Glory of God" ...essentially no one, no matter how good of lives they have led, are "worthy" of Heaven. But Christ bridged that gap between sinners and Heaven with his death on the cross by bearing the sin of all. So to accept that and believe in your heart that Jesus is God and died for you and through Him is the only path to Heaven, is indeed the only path to Heaven. I don't give a crap how "good" or "bad" a person is. Sure I want to live a "good" life and help others to do the same, but fortunately for us, that's not what dictates our salvation..or else we'd all be screwed. And I'm not trying to "force" this on anyone. Just stating what I believe to be true and what the Bible says to be true. If I didn't feel it in my own life and see it at work everyday, and see how it the Lord has completely changed the person I was and if I didn't have a personal relationship with him where I feel him working in my life, I wouldn't sit here and say all this. It would be stupid for me to sit here and believe all this if I didn't KNOW it to be true by the experiences I've had. God is a powerful, powerful being. Too many people make the mistake of thinking he just has human capablities and qualities like us, so how could he do all these things that are claimed God does.... but he's God, not a person.

Excellent post! ;)

[The Dude]

In no way am I going to claim to have all the answers to everything, so I can't justify everything I want to say to you Phoenix. It's late and my mind isn't working how I want it to, but I wish I could think more stuff to come up with, but maybe this will help some in the reasons why I believe the validity of the Bible. I'm a pretty big history buff and took a lot of history classes in college. So I'm going to go down that route and use what I know about history. When historians decide on a documents historical validity, they use manuscripts. They compare the original manuscripts to the printed copies and look for varying differences, and take into account the amount of them, and the difference in years from the originals to next copies.

As far as the New Testament goes, it was a 50 year difference between the original to the 1st manuscript. That seems like a long time you might say.. but ancient writings we so adore such as Plato's(1200 year difference) and Airostatle's(1400 years) had much longer time differences. Now, I understand those writing aren't claiming to be Holy, but the historical significance of them are no doubt important. And just how many Manuscripts are there of these writing? Well, there have been only 7 found of Plato's works, 49 of Airostatle, and 10 of Julius Caesar. But no one doubts that there were Romans and Greeks and all that jazz, because they're not claiming to be God. We can't see them, just as we can't see George Washingston, or Napoleon, but we believe they lived. However, when it comes to the New Testament, there are 24,633 Manuscripts that have been found. The piece of work with the 2nd most of all time is the Illiad, with 643.

Something that always struck me as interesting is the writing by Daniel of Psalms 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalms%2022;&version=9;;) (the Old Testament) which was written over a 1000 years before Jesus lived. It describes exactly what later happens to Jesus Christ in the crucifixion. I find it hard to believe that it's just coincidence that two writings, thousands of years apart, come together in a Holy book that detail the ultimate reason for Jesus Christ(his death to take on the sin of all man) Jesus' Death (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027;&version=9;)

And the story goes on that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven 3 days later. What gets me about this is that, ok, maybe Jesus was just a crazy man who thought he was God and was willing to die for something he THOUGHT was true. But if you ask me..those 12 disciples and all those followers of His would've started to get a little iffy after seeing this man Jesus suffer through the worst death sentence of all time for his "blasphemy" if they didn't really see with their own eyes the truth of what he was preaching and doing. And if the ressurection wasn't real, I would think those 12 disciples would have known it. However, I believe almost every one of them was later killed for believing that Jesus did rise from the dead and went around preaching the gospel where ever they went. There's a difference in dieing for something you think to be true, and finding out this guy was obviously just some wierdo who tricked us but let's keep doing what he said to do and die for it.

[The Dude]

if you are a Xian because your parents were, and thats how you were raised, I dont see how that is hard.

thinking for yourself and deciding what you choose to follow and casting off your parentally instilled prejudices is hard.

dealing with persecution every day even in a country that claims to be free is hard.

going along with your parents, dragging yourself to church every sunday, and living by morals every decent human being can agree on is not hard.

this isnt to say some Xians dont have it hard, but american Xians dont.

EDIT: Xian = christian


Not every "Xian" is a "Xian" because their parents were. Some people, like myself, have God come in their life and knock them off their horse and onto their back to be staring up at him and see the truth. I wouldn't sit here and be willing to die for this belief if it was just some loony thing I heard and thought sounded cool. I've experienced the power of God first-hand in my life and have seen what He does for people and for me. The power of God and the power of His love is something you can never understand until you decide you want to take that leap of faith and grasp it for yourself.

[lonny23]

probably as badly as she warped the pew...
You can never take enough shots at Okra. I hate how millions of women worship her every word.

I can't open the video, but it sounds like some of that crap that Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) is into.

[HebronHawk]

youtube video about her new CULT (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA)

I never watch the broad so I just figured she was a great person with a good head on her shoulders by the things I've heard that she's done. However, I now realize she's a crazy :Censor: Not saying she's not a good person, because religion doesn't dictate that, but crap... I never thought I'd see this! The scary thing is that so many people are turning to this new belief and a lot of them are "Christians." It's sad to see someone with such an influence be so blind.

What exactly are they teaching?
things like:
- My mind is part of Gods, I am very holy
- My holiness is my salvation
- My salvation comes from me
- Let me remember that there is no sin
- Do not make the pathetic error of "clinging to the old rugged cross"
- The only message of the crucifixion is that you can overcome the cross

As you can see, all of these things are incredibly blasphemous and she is leading millions of people against God.

Most of Hollowood believes some version of this. Scientology isn't much different.

It's a belief in the holiness of each person acting as their own God. The Universalist philosophy is also along these lines.

It's all part of Satan's plan for the world. We know how that ends up, don't we.

[slorch]

if you are a Xian because your parents were, and thats how you were raised, I dont see how that is hard.

thinking for yourself and deciding what you choose to follow and casting off your parentally instilled prejudices is hard.

dealing with persecution every day even in a country that claims to be free is hard.

going along with your parents, dragging yourself to church every sunday, and living by morals every decent human being can agree on is not hard.

this isnt to say some Xians dont have it hard, but american Xians dont.

EDIT: Xian = christian

I am Christian because that is what is my conviction of faith within my personal values. Would it mean anything to you that my mom hasn't been to church, other than for funerals/ weddings since I was about 11 or 12. I used to bum rides to church and eventually borrowed her car to take myself to church while she stayed home. Granted, going to church doesn't make you a Christian, but praise and worship, as well as fellowship with fellow believers, are integral parts of a faithful walk with the Lord.

As far as how hard it is to be a Christian, I dispute the difficulty of it. I find it inspiring and a source of strength. Jesus/ God never meant for your walk of faith to be cumbersome. It only seems that way when layered with society's expectations and the guilt many Christians self impose. Under the new covenant, we believe that Jesus bore the cross, so we wouldn't have to. He paid it all. I am forgiven with my repentance( change of heart or being born again,) therefore I live, knowing I am saved and serving Jesus Christ, my Lord and savior. I don't have anything else in this world that gives me strength like that, not even the new JerryLand...;):D

That being said, I would submit that it is very difficult to share my values openly in a society that tells me i must be tolerant of all of these different ideas and deviations from what I consider to be decent and good. At work, I should turn in someone for stealing from the company, or even if two workers are having an affair. if it happens to be a homosexual affair, all bets are off, and you had better not say anything. This is where being a Christian is difficult, because we are told to be open to others' beliefs, yet we are expected to check ours at the door if they are not easy to follow. When Lowes changed the name of their trees in December to Holiday trees, it is but another systematic statement that my beliefs are unwelcome there. Haven't set foot in a Lowe's since then, nor will I, as a paying customer.

One other thing, I also do not appreciate the use of X in the place of Christ's name. It is meant to remove his worth from the equation and help out a secular society in keeping Christ out of our vernacular. i don't think you did it maliciously, but it's hard to ever find a believer using the X in place of Christ's name. The phrase "Xian" evokes thoughts of being a Xavier fan, a Malcolm X follower, or simply a ten year old. I am none of those things.

Thanks.

[ktCarl]

I am in about 100% disagreement with you. Celebrity endorsement of candidates is about the absolute least relevant thing in American politics IMHO. It's irrelevant that Chuck Norris endorsed Huck and it is irrelevant that Oprah endorsed Obama.

Obama grabbed one of the biggest names in American entertainment. That's all. Oprah's hippy-dippy obsession will ACIM and other new-age nonsense is about as irrelevant as anything gets, ever.

Thank you.


Oprah's religion is an old and 'humanist' one with different trappings. These type of 'man is God' philosophy is ancient and based on lies and made up facts.

The first big lie was in Genesis.......

(Eve)God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent (Satan) said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

[TXFOOSBALL]

Oprah is fat.

[the_phoenix612]

I am Christian because that is what is my conviction of faith within my personal values. Would it mean anything to you that my mom hasn't been to church, other than for funerals/ weddings since I was about 11 or 12. I used to bum rides to church and eventually borrowed her car to take myself to church while she stayed home. Granted, going to church doesn't make you a Christian, but praise and worship, as well as fellowship with fellow believers, are integral parts of a faithful walk with the Lord.

As far as how hard it is to be a Christian, I dispute the difficulty of it. I find it inspiring and a source of strength. Jesus/ God never meant for your walk of faith to be cumbersome. It only seems that way when layered with society's expectations and the guilt many Christians self impose. Under the new covenant, we believe that Jesus bore the cross, so we wouldn't have to. He paid it all. I am forgiven with my repentance( change of heart or being born again,) therefore I live, knowing I am saved and serving Jesus Christ, my Lord and savior. I don't have anything else in this world that gives me strength like that, not even the new JerryLand...;):D

That being said, I would submit that it is very difficult to share my values openly in a society that tells me i must be tolerant of all of these different ideas and deviations from what I consider to be decent and good. At work, I should turn in someone for stealing from the company, or even if two workers are having an affair. if it happens to be a homosexual affair, all bets are off, and you had better not say anything. This is where being a Christian is difficult, because we are told to be open to others' beliefs, yet we are expected to check ours at the door if they are not easy to follow. When Lowes changed the name of their trees in December to Holiday trees, it is but another systematic statement that my beliefs are unwelcome there. Haven't set foot in a Lowe's since then, nor will I, as a paying customer.

One other thing, I also do not appreciate the use of X in the place of Christ's name. It is meant to remove his worth from the equation and help out a secular society in keeping Christ out of our vernacular. i don't think you did it maliciously, but it's hard to ever find a believer using the X in place of Christ's name. The phrase "Xian" evokes thoughts of being a Xavier fan, a Malcolm X follower, or simply a ten year old. I am none of those things.

Thanks.

first off, the X stands for christ much like Xmas means christmas. It is easier to type and is a very common contraction in internet religious debates.
if it bothers you, though, i will refrain from using it.

i wasnt saying all christians :p are who they are because of their parents, I am fully aware that there are people whose parents weren't religious that now are, just as my parents raised me Catholic.

I certainly don't expect you to "check your beliefs at the door", but those of them that interfere with other people's beliefs SHOULD be left at the door by all parties, and if a particular belief (i.e. homosexual relationships) is discriminatory towards somebody, I believe that belief should be left not only at the door, but right before it has any opportunity to hurt anyone.

For the same reason you dont like Lowe's calling pine trees sold in december Holiday trees, those of us that don't believe in the same Gods you do appreciate it. It is much more receptive to the idea that America is not a bland landscape of only christians. There are people living in Texas that are Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Atheist, Agnostic, Jewish, the list goes on and on. Those of us that do not celebrate Christmas appreciate holiday trees, as some of us like the old pagan traditions that evolved into Christmas that are the origin of the winter tree.
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#Origin
(evergreen trees were associated with the winter solstice(called Solturnia in some pagan religions) and were a symbol of everlasting life in the depths of winter)

[t-long20]

Either way, Oprah doesn't stand to gain much & is probably regretting the support of Obama. (I would be if i were in her shoes).

Back on topic,

Oprah's living up to the expectations of the Hollywood environment..."Toss your souls to the wind and free your mind from logic!"

Why would she regret that? From a financial standpoint ANY CANDIDATE would love Oprahs support. Would they not?

[slorch]

I certainly don't expect you to "check your beliefs at the door", but those of them that interfere with other people's beliefs SHOULD be left at the door by all parties, and if a particular belief (i.e. homosexual relationships) is discriminatory towards somebody, I believe that belief should be left not only at the door, but right before it has any opportunity to hurt anyone.

)

hurt is relative. Some define hurt as having to live by any rules or standards, much less Christian ones. I would submit that permissiveness and hedonism is just as hurtful as any other religion, and yes it is a form of religion.

I am interested in what my beliefs about homosexuality have to do with discrimination. My saying something about an affair at work is the same for either couple, yet somehow if it is a homosexual tryist, it is permissable? Is that what I'm hearing?

[HUM398]

Yeah, but that is whats wrong with most Christians. They want to worry about everyone else's lives when they really should focus on their own.

So Oprah's "religion" isn't in line with your beliefs? Who cares?! Most of you know that I don't believe in organized religion (Oprahs' or Christianity). Her religion isn't any different than yours.....a bunch of blind followers. I believe in a God, but I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I have my own personal relationship with God.

I didn't realize Oprah was such a bad human being :rolleyes: But I guess when you're not a Christian you are just a bad person :rolleyes:

NO!

Absolutely not... No chit chat from the man(or women..or whatever) that wants to avoid religious and political threads.

[pied]

One other thing, I also do not appreciate the use of X in the place of Christ's name. It is meant to remove his worth from the equation and help out a secular society in keeping Christ out of our vernacular. i don't think you did it maliciously, but it's hard to ever find a believer using the X in place of Christ's name. The phrase "Xian" evokes thoughts of being a Xavier fan, a Malcolm X follower, or simply a ten year old. I am none of those things.

Thanks.

Since Chrisitians have been using the X or the Greek letter chi as a symbol for Christ since about the first century AD, it doesn't bother me much.

[RedRage00]

NO!

Absolutely not... No chit chat from the man(or women..or whatever) that wants to avoid religious and political threads.

Not worth it.

[LPMOM]

She use to sit a listen to the same preacher Obama is enamored with...maybe he warped her mind?

wright was probably the preacher that was preaching when her warped mind didn't understand what that scripture means!

[LPMOM]

NO!

Absolutely not... No chit chat from the man(or women..or whatever) that wants to avoid religious and political threads.

your WAY off base for making a personal strike like that at redrage!:Censor:
i think you should get banned for that remark!

p.s.What Would Jesus Do???
lash out in hatefull words or show His love?!

[slorch]

Since Chrisitians have been using the X or the Greek letter chi as a symbol for Christ since about the first century AD, it doesn't bother me much.

never heard it before.

My bible says he is the Alpha and Omega, but I have never heard him referred to as the "Chi."

[slorch]

edited by request"

thread locker.

That's way out of line, and telling of who really wants to discuss the topic- unless i missed something?

[mojotrain]

first off, the X stands for christ much like Xmas means christmas. It is easier to type and is a very common contraction in internet religious debates.
if it bothers you, though, i will refrain from using it.

i wasnt saying all christians :p are who they are because of their parents, I am fully aware that there are people whose parents weren't religious that now are, just as my parents raised me Catholic.

I certainly don't expect you to "check your beliefs at the door", but those of them that interfere with other people's beliefs SHOULD be left at the door by all parties, and if a particular belief (i.e. homosexual relationships) is discriminatory towards somebody, I believe that belief should be left not only at the door, but right before it has any opportunity to hurt anyone.

For the same reason you dont like Lowe's calling pine trees sold in december Holiday trees, those of us that don't believe in the same Gods you do appreciate it. It is much more receptive to the idea that America is not a bland landscape of only christians. There are people living in Texas that are Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Atheist, Agnostic, Jewish, the list goes on and on. Those of us that do not celebrate Christmas appreciate holiday trees, as some of us like the old pagan traditions that evolved into Christmas that are the origin of the winter tree.
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#Origin
(evergreen trees were associated with the winter solstice(called Solturnia in some pagan religions) and were a symbol of everlasting life in the depths of winter)

X is not a symbol for Christ and has never been that. I view it as a cut towards the Christian faith.
Christians have been persecuted since the begining of history. That means they still are. My original post indicates just that. That alone would justify what I said that," it is not easy to be a Christian." Being a Christian is not a kings X(your symbol for Christ) from being tempted by sin. That alone would justify, what I said that, "it is not easy being a Christian." Being of no faith is easy. So being a Christian is hard, while standing for nothing is in fact easy.

Christians are not born into that religion. They take that step, free will ,at some point in their lives.

Christmas is Christmas, for my part it's a celebration of a birtday and it could have been assigned to a date in july. Jesus was and is the only reason. If I'm to celebrate a holiday I want to know what the holiday is for. When I buy a gift I buy from a store I buy from those who advertises it for what it is. I have not failed to buy a gift yet. So non belivers or those who do celebrate the birth of Christ brought their battle cry to Lowes and for the time being your side won. Don't take anything commerical to be Christian. When you are saved by the grace of God you will understand all of that.

I wasn't saved by the grace of wikipedia and I won't be sent to hell by them either. They are a useful tool but my Bible has no mention of them.
I don't have ill will against the groups you mentioned or others as they too have been persecuted throughout time. I do have a problem to those religions who have who have a goal of harming anyone(anyone this is a catch word, don't miss it) in the USA. So as all believers or non believers go around the world, trying to recruit, thats what we will do also. It's only fair. If I can't advertise or promote my belief that gives non believers the win without effort. Thats easy. Either live with it or persucute it.

It's a Christians belief to be a missionary to others. I don't view that as harmful. It could in fact, be viewed as wikipedia like, in that, it's another view. In fact to make it simple for you, for religion purpose the Holy Bible is my wikipedia.

So I say again, being a Christian is hard. If not, everyone would be one. So mind or not mind I won't be leaving my Christian ideals at any door. That would allow your belief to trump over mine. It ain't gonna happen. Either live with it or persecute it.

[LPMOM]

thread locker.

That's way out of line, and telling of who really wants to discuss the topic- unless i missed something?

you did. hum398 made a post directed at redrage that was uncalled for.

[slorch]

you did. hum398 made a post directed at redrage that was uncalled for.

OK, so I saw the second and third shot... All I could think is, "Wow!" None of the name calling is productive and none of it leads to better understanding of the other veiwpoints.

I do not do that stuff to people on here. I will leave it at that. I like having the discussions too much for that kind of crap to take place.

[slorch]

As for Christians referring to Christ as "X," here is a dictionary explanation that also repeats what I said earlier in the thread- the secular folks use the term "X"-mas as a way of removing His name and meaning from the holiday and our language. That reference is in no way Christian.-

X- letter of the alphabet. In English it has no peculiar sound, but stands for the combination ks as in fox, or gz as in exempt, or, initially, for the sound of z as inX, 24th xenia. In words from Greek, x transliterates the 14th Greek letter, xi, a letter perhaps quite unrelated to the Roman x in form. The formal Greek correspondent of x was chi, hence it is used in phonetics to represent a velar fricative like ch in loch. As the initial of the name Christ, X has become a symbol for it, e.g., in Xmas and in the monogram XP (chi rho). In Roman numerals X stands for 10.

[RedRage00]

OK, so I saw the second and third shot... All I could think is, "Wow!" None of the name calling is productive and none of it leads to better understanding of the other veiwpoints.

I do not do that stuff to people on here. I will leave it at that. I like having the discussions too much for that kind of crap to take place.


Yeah, the discussion was civil until a good Christian man like Hum comes in with his smart @$$ personal attacks without adding anything to the conversation already at hand.

Sorry for my language but some people are just idiots. That's the only thing they'll understand.

Slorch, I think you should take Hum out back and show him how a good Christian is supposed to act ;)

[slorch]

Yeah, the discussion was civil until a good Christian man like Hum comes in with his smart @$$ personal attacks without adding anything to the conversation already at hand.

Sorry for my language but some people are just idiots. That's the only thing they'll understand.

I don't know if you know this saying but-

Don't wrestle with pigs. You get dirty as hell, and they love dirt.

translation- calling a namecaller a name only makes you look bad.

[RedRage00]

I don't know if you know this saying but-

Don't wrestle with pigs. You get dirty as hell, and they love dirt.

translation- calling a namecaller a name only makes you look bad.

HA! Thanks for the advice ;):cool:

RR

[HUM398]

Oh my....

The Cry Babies are out in full tonight...aren't they.

[HUM398]

Yeah, the discussion was civil until a good Christian man like Hum comes in with his smart @$$ personal attacks without adding anything to the conversation already at hand.

Sorry for my language but some people are just idiots. That's the only thing they'll understand.

Slorch, I think you should take Hum out back and show him how a good Christian is supposed to act ;)

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg

[LPMOM]

Oh my....

The Cry Babies are out in full tonight...aren't they.

i would say something but slorch (whom i have much respect for) told us we couldn't act like pigs cause we might get dirty.

[HUM398]

your WAY off base for making a personal strike like that at redrage!:Censor:
i think you should get banned for that remark!

p.s.What Would Jesus Do???
lash out in hatefull words or show His love?!

What else is new.

I personally don't see anything wrong with anything i said...didn't realize Berkley had so many fans on this board.

[RedRage00]

i would say something but slorch (whom i have much respect for) told us we couldn't act like pigs cause we might get dirty.

Some people just still act like they need their diaper changed. ;)

Some people just enjoy putting down others because it makes them feel better about their pathetic lives or in this case...makes him feel more manly :rolleyes:

[HUM398]

i would say something but slorch (whom i have much respect for) told us we couldn't act like pigs cause we might get dirty.

:rolleyes:

sure you would.

[HUM398]

Some people just still act like they need their diaper changed. ;)

Some people just enjoy putting down others because it makes them feel better about their pathetic lives or in this case...makes him feel more manly :rolleyes:

or Feminine...what ever you prefer.

[slorch]

honestly I don't want to see anyone in this bunch get burned because i like everyone involved.

Just chill out and let it cool off.

Or just make yourselves easier to hate.;):D

[RedRage00]

or Feminine...what ever you prefer.

I was talking about you...but if thats what you consider yourself LOL

Keep up.

[HUM398]

honestly I don't want to see anyone in this bunch get burned because i like everyone involved.

Just chill out and let it cool off.

Or just make yourselves easier to hate.;):D

Bro, if this gets me banned...Im not sure i want to be part of this board.

This is absolutely ridiculous....Jakerz can make a mockery of My God...yet i question someones manhood, and i get the 3rd degree.....

I sure hope i get whats coming to me....:rolleyes:

[HUM398]

I was talking about you...but if thats what you consider yourself LOL

Keep up.

I don't clarify my post...i think you know who i directed to.

[RedRage00]

Bro, if this gets me banned...Im not sure i want to be part of this board.

This is absolutely ridiculous....Jakerz can make a mockery of My God...yet i question someones manhood, and i get the 3rd degree.....

I sure hope i get whats coming to me....:rolleyes:


This thread wasn't about my manhood. That's the difference. We are all having a civil discussion about this thing Oprah is talking about...then you come in calling me a woman or whatever for no reason. I'd like to see you call me that to my face. In the last 8 years no one has had the guts to call me anything to my face.

I'd like to meet you at the State Finals and see you call me feminine or a woman to my face. I dare you.

And what do I have to with Jakerz?

[okt0ber]

your WAY off base for making a personal strike like that at redrage!:Censor:
i think you should get banned for that remark!

p.s.What Would Jesus Do???
lash out in hatefull words or show His love?!

LOL, Hum isn't Jesus. He has the right to think what he wants about others on here. No need to judge him. His day will come.

[HUM398]

This thread wasn't about my manhood. That's the difference. We are all having a civil discussion about this thing Oprah is talking about...then you come in calling me a woman or whatever for no reason. I'd like to see you call me that to my face. In the last 8 years no one has had the guts to call me anything to my face.

I'd like to meet you at the State Finals and see you call me feminine or a woman to my face.

And what do I have to with Jakerz?

Yeah, you go ahead and flex those muscles of yours.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

in reference to jakerz....Nothing, but my comments weren't even directed towards you as a "Hate" thing. it was just something i threw in there, because you change your mind about as often as a women does her cloths. I am just not suprised at all that someone is calling for my banning because of something i said....yet jakerz can make a mockery of my God, and people just say..."That wasn't very nice". He isn't the only example...Their are hundreds...yet i get called on, although i wasn't even intending to call you a name....which i don't think i did.

If you want to take it as a personal shot at your sexual preference...fine. I personally don't give a crap. Go ahead, cry...."Oh, go pray or something..."....

Personally RedRage.... If you say you are done with these threads...Then be done with them. Nothing annoys me more then the same ol' tired argument from a guy who insists that he is finished with it.


MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!

[HUM398]

LOL, Hum isn't Jesus. He has the right to think what he wants about others on here. No need to judge him. His day will come.

Your right...My day will come...as everyone elses will.


But, to clear the air. what the hell is everyone so pissed about?

because i said "or her...or whatever you are'.... are you freaking serious?

[okt0ber]

Yeah, you go ahead and flex those muscles of yours.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

in reference to jakerz....Nothing, but my comments weren't even directed towards you as a "Hate" thing. it was just something i through in there, because you change your mind about as often as a women does her cloths. I am just not suprised at all that someone is calling for my banning because of something i said....yet jakerz can make a mockery of my God, and people just say..."That wasn't very nice". He isn't the only example...Their are hundreds...yet i get called on, although i wasn't even intending to call you a name....which i don't think i did.

If you want to take it as a personal shot at your sexual preference...fine. I personally don't give a crap. Go ahead, cry...."Oh, go pray or something..."....

Personally RedRage.... If you say you are done with these threads...Then be done with them. Nothing annoys me more then the same ol' tired argument from a guy who insists that he is finished with it.


MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!

No no no, he does not. RR, as long as I've known him, has been very against the ultra right wing christian movement because it's hateful/judgemental.

[RedRage00]

Yeah, you go ahead and flex those muscles of yours.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

in reference to jakerz....Nothing, but my comments weren't even directed towards you as a "Hate" thing. it was just something i threw in there, because you change your mind about as often as a women does her cloths. I am just not suprised at all that someone is calling for my banning because of something i said....yet jakerz can make a mockery of my God, and people just say..."That wasn't very nice". He isn't the only example...Their are hundreds...yet i get called on, although i wasn't even intending to call you a name....which i don't think i did.

If you want to take it as a personal shot at your sexual preference...fine. I personally don't give a crap. Go ahead, cry...."Oh, go pray or something..."....

Personally RedRage.... If you say you are done with these threads...Then be done with them. Nothing annoys me more then the same ol' tired argument from a guy who insists that he is finished with it.


MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND!

Please grow up.....5ATexasFootball.com is waiting for that day.

[HUM398]

Please grow up.....5ATexasFootball.com is waiting for that day.

Says the guy that wants to meet me face to face...Insinuating that you'd teach me a lesson with your lavish masculinity.

[RedRage00]

No no no, he does not. RR, as long as I've known him, has been very against the ultra right wing christian movement because it's hateful/judgemental.

I think he's talking about me participating in Religious/Political debates.....I usually bow out once people like Hum start to take it personal...the only thing people like him have against me is my sexual orientation. He just needs to grow up....I really hope he has a son one day that "comes out" to him...That would just make my day! :D

Then we can take him to Bonham LOL

[HUM398]

No no no, he does not. RR, as long as I've known him, has been very against the ultra right wing christian movement because it's hateful/judgemental.

No... not what i meant.

He said he was done with these threads...this tired subject...political threads...Yet he continues to get "Dirty" in them.

That shows me he is unable to make his mind.

Im sure he knows what he stands for....but thats not what i calling into question.

[RedRage00]

Says the guy that wants to meet me face to face...Insinuating that you'd teach me a lesson with your lavish masculinity.

:laugh

I'm probably more attractive than you and could get your girl if I wanted. :cool:

[okt0ber]

I think he's talking about me participating in Religious/Political debates.....I usually bow out once people like Hum start to take it personal...the only thing people like him have against me is my sexual orientation. He just needs to grow up....I really hope he has a son one day that "comes out" to him...That would just make my day! :D

Then we can take him to Bonham LOL


Don't bring me into this!! LMAP!

[okt0ber]

No... not what i meant.

He said he was done with these threads...this tired subject...political threads...Yet he continues to get "Dirty" in them.

That shows me he is unable to make his mind.

Im sure he knows what he stands for....but thats not what i calling into question.

Ooookkk come on, you know good and well people are forever saying they're finished with this and that on here.

[RedRage00]

No... not what i meant.

He said he was done with these threads...this tired subject...political threads...Yet he continues to get "Dirty" in them.

That shows me he is unable to make his mind.

Im sure he knows what he stands for....but thats not what i calling into question.

Your posts show me that you're sexually confused.....do we have another Larry Craig on 5A?

Please don't tap you're foot at me...you're not my type.

[RedRage00]

Don't bring me into this!! LMAP!

Oh forgot, he's in the Houston area.....we could take him to Rich's....or Montrose.

[HUM398]

I think he's talking about me participating in Religious/Political debates.....I usually bow out once people like Hum start to take it personal...the only thing people like him have against me is my sexual orientation. He just needs to grow up....I really hope he has a son one day that "comes out" to him...That would just make my day! :D

Then we can take him to Bonham LOL

Until today (which is clearly just you getting your panties in a wad....oh wait...can i say that...)... Ive never personally attacked your Sexual orientation with the intentions of smearing you.


But paint me like you will....i said i think Homosexuality is wrong, but i dont hate...or hold it against anyone. Im a sinner, as are you.


Why would it make your day....trying to get vengeance?

[HUM398]

Your posts show me that you're sexually confused.....do we have another Larry Craig on 5A?

Please don't tap you're foot at me...you're not my type.

oh, i guess this is where im suppose to jump up an defend my sexuality.


good one. :rolleyes:

[TXFOOSBALL]

Oh forgot, he's in the Houston area.....we could take him to Rich's....or Montrose.

Let's go to South Beach!

[RedRage00]

Until today (which is clearly just you getting your panties in a wad....oh wait...can i say that...)... Ive never personally attacked your Sexual orientation with the intentions of smearing you.


But paint me like you will....i said i think Homosexuality is wrong, but i dont hate...or hold it against anyone. Im a sinner, as are you.


Why would it make your day....trying to get vengeance?

Nah....just from experience, people tend to change their minds on certain subjects when it hits closer to home.

Anyway, I don't wanna get banned so I'm gonna bow out for now. I need to meet some friends anyway.....laters

[RedRage00]

Let's go to South Beach!

HELL YEAH!
LOL

Anyway....I'm heading out for now.

[HUM398]

:laugh

I'm probably more attractive than you and could get your girl if I wanted. :cool:

Yeah probably...:rolleyes:

and you told me to grow up?

"Bet im hotter then you...."

[HUM398]

Nah....just from experience, people tend to change their minds on certain subjects when it hits closer to home.

Anyway, I don't wanna get banned so I'm gonna bow out for now. I need to meet some friends anyway.....laters

Wait one moment there "hot stuff".

You said people like "Hum".... what kind of person am i?

You clearly painted me as a Homo hating conservative....yet, there is no evidence to support that claim....

No...instead you fueled my flame when you took it as a personal attack and responded. yet i think only ONE person said you were out of place.

ah...yes...the double standard....and they say its a myth. Silly liberals.

[slorch]

I think he's talking about me participating in Religious/Political debates.....I usually bow out once people like Hum start to take it personal...the only thing people like him have against me is my sexual orientation. He just needs to grow up....I really hope he has a son one day that "comes out" to him...That would just make my day! :D

Then we can take him to Bonham LOL

ruh roh...

y'all hash it out.

Talking about what someone's kid is going to be gay is ...well... fightin words. to knowingly say that to a Christian is offensive to say the least.

Do y'all understand that trading insults accomplishes nothing?

[HUM398]

ruh roh...

y'all hash it out.

Talking about what someone's kid is going to be gay is ...well... fightin words. to knowingly say that to a Christian is offensive to say the least.

Do y'all understand that trading insults accomplishes nothing?

No one cares if it offends me...it only important that i avoid stepping on his toes.

remember that Slorch. We live in a new world.

[HUM398]

Nah....just from experience, people tend to change their minds on certain subjects when it hits closer to home.

Anyway, I don't wanna get banned so I'm gonna bow out for now. I need to meet some friends anyway.....laters

Bro, nothing is ever going to change the word of God....So nothing will ever change my stance on homosexuality...

If my son becomes gay...Ill love him all the same. But he will firmly know where i stand.

Nothing can wipe away the love a father can have for his child. But consequence is something i can't protect him from.

The same goes for God....although he hates the fact that his creation lives in sin...HE STILL gave his only begotten son to die on a cross so that we would have a path to righteousness...not through our own power but his.

You refuse his grace...and i will continue to pray that you will answer his call....

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"




"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

[slorch]

this thread is headed for a heartache tonight...:D

[HUM398]

this thread is headed for a heartache tonight...:D

it was doomed the moment people took my post seriously.(initial post)

[okt0ber]

this thread is headed for a heartache tonight...:D

More like Hell in a handbasket LOL

[slorch]

it was doomed the moment people took my post seriously.

be careful what you ask for...

i wonder if any these young guys is Seguin?:D

[HUM398]

be careful what you ask for...

i wonder if any these young guys is Seguin?:D

its why i clarified in my edit. I was speaking about my initial post.

I never expected people to read so deep into it, seeing a bash fest unfold before their very eyes.

I probably should of been a little more clear in my post, but what the hell. The Yard needs a little life.

[HUM398]

be careful what you ask for...

i wonder if any these young guys is Seguin?:D

i didn't see anyone waving around the confederate flag demanding that black folk not be allowed to post in the same thread as them...

so im going to assume no....

[TXFOOSBALL]

it was doomed the moment people took my post seriously.(initial post)

It as doomed from the start b/c the thread title included the word "Religion".

[slorch]

It as doomed from the start b/c the thread title included the word "Religion".

not neccessarily. Most of the people on this board just use that word for another meaning of Texas High School Football!:D

[TXFOOSBALL]

not neccessarily. Most of the people on this board just use that word for another meaning of Texas High School Football!:D

Good Point...That is the only Religion I will talk about on this board.

[Dawg Fan]

What an absolutely stupid as* thread. Asking to get someone banned or the hypocrisy of one poster saying you shouldn't call me names but I can turn around and call you some. Does anyone actually go back and read this crap? I am shocked this thing is still alive at all:rolleyes:

[okt0ber]

What an absolutely stupid as* thread. Asking to get someone banned or the hypocrisy of one poster saying you shouldn't call me names but I can turn around and call you some. Does anyone actually go back and read this crap? I am shocked this thing is still alive at all:rolleyes:

It'll die now, but yeah, you know the KTs must be out tonight LOL

[slorch]

It'll die now, but yeah, you know the KTs must be out tonight LOL

Actually I saw a KT post earlier.

we can police ourselves...:rolleyes:;)

[cajun]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0004.gif

[Firebird]

Some of the posters on this board need to hash things out on Oprah.......I see some tearful hugs in the future.

[t-long20]

How did i miss this thread.:confused:More like Dr.Phil firebird.

[t-long20]

its why i clarified in my edit. I was speaking about my initial post.

I never expected people to read so deep into it, seeing a bash fest unfold before their very eyes.

I probably should of been a little more clear in my post, but what the hell. The Yard needs a little life.

Welcome to my world HUM. Where each and every single post is taken 100% seriously and literally.

[mojotrain]

can someone please logically explain to me the difference between a religion and a cult?
an explanation that doesn't include sniping at other people's faiths would be much appreciated.
do i ask too much?

No you don't ask too much. I'm glad you are asking. Maybe in a loose sense a Religion, a cult, atheist, Democrats, Republicans or any organized group of people could be viewed as cults. All are people who share like ideas and thoughts. I might consider a non believer as a menber of a cult. Most of them do snipe and mock those of faith. As I said before it's not easy being a Christian. It might just a matter of what side you are on and who you wish to jab.

A Christian depends mostly on faith and on things that happens in his heart and mind. At least early in their Christian life. But the word faith, is the key. I would compare Christian Faith is akin to the faith as one who would base their lack of faith on carbon dateing.
So even those who beleive carbon dating is the absolute truth at least do have faith in something. Both are intangable if you look into some one elses mind. You can't see it. Thats fair. I simply go by my faith in my religion.

Can you tell me what your Thomas Jefferson quote means in your mind.

[JMSFan]

No no no, he does not. RR, as long as I've known him, has been very against the ultra right wing christian movement because it's hateful/judgemental.

I find it amazing that he is against the hateful/judgemental type, but that is the same way he acts and responds in his posts about the Christains.

just my 2 cents

[HUM398]

Welcome to my world HUM. Where each and every single post is taken 100% seriously and literally.

Oh, ive been in your world for a while now...Im sleeping on the couch remember?

I think this is the first time though, that someone actually wanted to meet me in person and teach me a lesson by laying my eyes on them... bwhahahahaha!

[RedRage00]

Wait one moment there "hot stuff".

You said people like "Hum".... what kind of person am i?

You clearly painted me as a Homo hating conservative....yet, there is no evidence to support that claim....

No...instead you fueled my flame when you took it as a personal attack and responded. yet i think only ONE person said you were out of place.

ah...yes...the double standard....and they say its a myth. Silly liberals.

I'm not a liberal. :cool:

[t-long20]

Oh, ive been in your world for a while now...Im sleeping on the couch remember?

I think this is the first time though, that someone actually wanted to meet me in person and teach me a lesson by laying my eyes on them... bwhahahahaha!

I guess thats alot worse than someone wanting you to list your life accomplishments over the "internet" compared to theirs. I was just about to claim I was Michael Jordan and call it a day. The unique posts that I have seen in the yard never seize to amaze me.

[HUM398]

I'm not a liberal. :cool:

sure you're not.

But if it makes you feel better...i was referring to their thinking that their is no double standard. not you in specific.

[HUM398]

I guess thats alot worse than someone wanting you to list your life accomplishments over the "internet" compared to theirs. I was just about to claim I was Michael Jordan and call it a day. The unique posts that I have seen in the yard never seize to amaze me.

QUIET...IM MUCH BETTER LOOKING THEN YOU!:rolleyes:


bwhahahahaha!

[the_phoenix612]

No you don't ask too much. I'm glad you are asking. Maybe in a loose sense a Religion, a cult, atheist, Democrats, Republicans or any organized group of people could be viewed as cults. All are people who share like ideas and thoughts. I might consider a non believer as a menber of a cult. Most of them do snipe and mock those of faith. As I said before it's not easy being a Christian. It might just a matter of what side you are on and who you wish to jab.

A Christian depends mostly on faith and on things that happens in his heart and mind. At least early in their Christian life. But the word faith, is the key. I would compare Christian Faith is akin to the faith as one who would base their lack of faith on carbon dateing.
So even those who beleive carbon dating is the absolute truth at least do have faith in something. Both are intangable if you look into some one elses mind. You can't see it. Thats fair. I simply go by my faith in my religion.

Can you tell me what your Thomas Jefferson quote means in your mind.

The Jefferson quote is a reflection of my exacerbation at the christian right-wingers who insist on calling the USA a "christian nation".

the bill of rights says we are a secular nation.

Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Paine said we are a secular nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli EXPLICITLY states that "the United States in no sense founded on the Christian religion".

It is unspeakably frustrating to have Christians crying "persecution" when Lowe's rids their advertisements of the word Christmas because a large portion of their customers do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

And then to have them tell me that having no faith is the easy way out is a slap in the face.

I am not eligible to be elected into office in 9 states, including Texas, because they all have a provision in their state constitutions that requires faith in a higher power, even though this is completely unconstitutional. (US Constitution, Article 6, section 3)

ESPECIALLY in texas, not a day goes by where i do not feel the effects of DIRECT persecution.

Not "OH NO! THE DAMN LIBERALS GOT CHRISTMAS TAKEN OFF A FEW SIGNS!" but people walking up to me and shouting at me that I am going to hell, a horrible person, that i must like killing babies (actually happened) because I deny Jesus, etc. etc. etc.

so PLEASE before you claim persecution by the 8% of American citizens who don't belive in god of the 92% that do. (2001 ARIS study)


it is refreshing to see that there are still one or two rational christians out there who actually want to talk about this. I'm sorry if some of my frustration comes out in my writing, none of it is directed specifically at you, mojotrain.

[HebronHawk]

I'm not a liberal. :cool:

What brand of Democrat are you?:D

[slorch]

The unique posts that I have seen in the yard never seize to amaze me.

cease.

I'm sorry but that word brings a totally different image to mind...:D

[slorch]

It is unspeakably frustrating to have Christians crying "persecution" when Lowe's rids their advertisements of the word Christmas because a large portion of their customers do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

And then to have them tell me that having no faith is the easy way out is a slap in the face.



just for clarification, I never said Christians were persecuted by Lowes, so lets get that out of the way, please. i simply talked about the removal of the word "Christ" from Christmas. i said nothing of persecution, rather the notion that my money wasn't wanted there. I am only too happy to oblige them.

What is truly frustrating is being accused of all of this wrongdoing and ill-will, when our country has taken a complete nose dive in a moral sense that has coincidently mirrored the systematic disposal of God and faith from what we do day in and day out. What is this large portion of people that believe there is no God doing by celebrating Christmas, anyway? And you call Christians irrational? At least I'm upfront about what I believe.

Honestly, I don't really think you have a problem with me personally, nor I with you, but you seem almost militant in your discussion about "those Christians" and their beliefs. There's always going to be radicals, just as the folks ouside of Eldorado tried to wrap their corruption in following God. 99% of the other Christians are denoundcing what happened, yet some will choose to focus on the so-called religion of this sect.

We, as Christians, are not really persectuted in this country, especially relative to what others go through in this crazy world, so I agree with you there. My biggest frustration lay in the amount of "freedom" and "expression" that is given to secularists versus people like myself. I am speaking from personal experience at work, in public, and so-forth. Bottom line is that here in Texas, it is much easier to outwardly be a Christian than possibly anywhere in the world. that is still one of the reasons I love living here. I love how it crosses racial barriers and brings people together that normally wouldn't have stopped at Whataburger or Target to share their words, but they are at church together that morning, sharing their lives in their faith in the Lord. I get tired of the bad-rap of being close-minded and intolerant. Yes, I hate sin, but I love the sinner. Many in society don't even want me speaking out about what is right and wrong. Therein lie the social decay we have today.

[Dawg Fan]

just for clarification, I never said Christians were persecuted by Lowes, so lets get that out of the way, please. i simply talked about the removal of the word "Christ" from Christmas. i said nothing of persecution, rather the notion that my money wasn't wanted there. I am only too happy to oblige them.

What is truly frustrating is being accused of all of this wrongdoing and ill-will, when our country has taken a complete nose dive in a moral sense that has concidently mirrored the systematic disposal of God and faith from what we do day in and day out. What is this large portion of people that believe there is no God doing by celebrating Christmas, anyway? And you call Christians ignorant? At least I'm upfront about what I believe.

Honestly, I don't really think you have a problem with me personally, nor I with you, but you seem almost militant in your discussion about "those Christians" and their beliefs. There's always going to be radicals, just as the folks ouside of Eldorado tried to wrap their corruption in following God. 99% of the other Christians are denoundcing what happened, yet some will choose to focus on the so-called religion of this sect.

We, as Christians, are not really persectuted in this country, especially relative to what others go through in this crazy world, so I agree with you there. My biggest frustration lay in the amount of "freedom" and "expression" that is given to secularists versus people like myself. I am speaking from personal experience at work, in public, and so-forth. Bottom line is that here in Texas, it is much easier to outwardly be a Christian than possibly anywhere in the world. that is still one of the reasons I love living here. I love how it crosses racial barriers and brings people together that normally wouldn't have stopped at Whataburger or Target to share their words, but they are at church together that morning, sharing their lives in their faith in the Lord. I get tired of the bad-rap of being close-minded and intolerant. Yes, I hate sin, but I love the sinner. Many in society don't even want me speaking out about what is right and wrong. Therein lie the social decay we have today.

eloquent and to the point as always. :)

[Bobcat81]

The Jefferson quote is a reflection of my exacerbation at the christian right-wingers who insist on calling the USA a "christian nation".

the bill of rights says we are a secular nation.

Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Paine said we are a secular nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli EXPLICITLY states that "the United States in no sense founded on the Christian religion".

It is unspeakably frustrating to have Christians crying "persecution" when Lowe's rids their advertisements of the word Christmas because a large portion of their customers do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

And then to have them tell me that having no faith is the easy way out is a slap in the face.

I am not eligible to be elected into office in 9 states, including Texas, because they all have a provision in their state constitutions that requires faith in a higher power, even though this is completely unconstitutional. (US Constitution, Article 6, section 3)

ESPECIALLY in texas, not a day goes by where i do not feel the effects of DIRECT persecution.

Not "OH NO! THE DAMN LIBERALS GOT CHRISTMAS TAKEN OFF A FEW SIGNS!" but people walking up to me and shouting at me that I am going to hell, a horrible person, that i must like killing babies (actually happened) because I deny Jesus, etc. etc. etc.

so PLEASE before you claim persecution by the 8% of American citizens who don't belive in god of the 92% that do. (2001 ARIS study)


it is refreshing to see that there are still one or two rational christians out there who actually want to talk about this. I'm sorry if some of my frustration comes out in my writing, none of it is directed specifically at you, mojotrain.


There are publications that have not been in print for some time now that dispute the theory that "we are not a Christian Nation", and are not a "Theocracy". In reality, we actually are.

In The Mayflower Compact, 1620:
"In the name of God, Amen, We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign lord King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith and the honor of our king and country, a Voyage to plant the first colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; do by the presents, solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politick, for our better ordering and preservation and Furtherance of other Ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof do enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most [suitable] and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."

I would encourage further reading on the subject of how this nation was founded as a Christian Nation.


Publications that are recently coming back into print since the recent arguments concerning the separation of church & state:

"Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the U.S." - B.F. Morris (1864) /Reprint-Gary DeMar

America's Christian History: The Untold Story by Gary DeMar: "Christianity is written on every page of America's amazing history. Gary DeMar presents well-documented facts which will change your perspective about what it means to be a Christian in America; the truth about America's Christian past as it relates to supreme court justices, and presidents; the Christian character of colonial charters, state constitutions, and the US Constitution; the Christian foundation of colleges, the Christian character of Washington, D.C.; the origin of Thanksgiving, etc."

[t-long20]

cease.

I'm sorry but that word brings a totally different image to mind...:D

:D

[Bobcat81]

The Jefferson quote is a reflection of my exacerbation at the christian right-wingers who insist on calling the USA a "christian nation".

the bill of rights says we are a secular nation.

Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Paine said we are a secular nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli EXPLICITLY states that "the United States in no sense founded on the Christian religion".

I am not eligible to be elected into office in 9 states, including Texas, because they all have a provision in their state constitutions that requires faith in a higher power, even though this is completely unconstitutional. (US Constitution, Article 6, section 3)




This link may explain the "Treaty of Tripoli" doctrin in a little more comprehensive detail:
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/02-09-05.asp (This also clarifies Bush's comments about America's Christian foundation)

Also, the book i mentioned earlier would help explain why those that are not of a certain foundation cannot accept public office.

Since the later part of the 40's it has become most evident (and in some cases even before then-Civil War, late 1800's, & 1900' turn of the century), Congress, The Supreme court, and others (See Dr. Spock also) have been altering the true intention of how this country was intentionally supposed to exists.

The Constitution & other original documents that are the foundations of our country have continued to come under fire because they don't go along with the "liberal" mainstream. They had to be altered as time progressed in order to appease liberal "opinions" and not what they were originally written under..which was biblical/religious principal.

When we as a country deviated from those principles in Govt. leadership, teaching, etc., the country began (and is at an alarming rate) to faulter. People started altering "text" and finding justification through repetetive altered interpretation which has caused things to go to hell in a hand basket.

[mojotrain]

The Jefferson quote is a reflection of my exacerbation at the christian right-wingers who insist on calling the USA a "christian nation".

the bill of rights says we are a secular nation.

Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Paine said we are a secular nation.

The Treaty of Tripoli EXPLICITLY states that "the United States in no sense founded on the Christian religion".

It is unspeakably frustrating to have Christians crying "persecution" when Lowe's rids their advertisements of the word Christmas because a large portion of their customers do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

And then to have them tell me that having no faith is the easy way out is a slap in the face.

I am not eligible to be elected into office in 9 states, including Texas, because they all have a provision in their state constitutions that requires faith in a higher power, even though this is completely unconstitutional. (US Constitution, Article 6, section 3)

ESPECIALLY in texas, not a day goes by where i do not feel the effects of DIRECT persecution.

Not "OH NO! THE DAMN LIBERALS GOT CHRISTMAS TAKEN OFF A FEW SIGNS!" but people walking up to me and shouting at me that I am going to hell, a horrible person, that i must like killing babies (actually happened) because I deny Jesus, etc. etc. etc.

so PLEASE before you claim persecution by the 8% of American citizens who don't belive in god of the 92% that do. (2001 ARIS study)


it is refreshing to see that there are still one or two rational christians out there who actually want to talk about this. I'm sorry if some of my frustration comes out in my writing, none of it is directed specifically at you, mojotrain.

You have part of something right. It is a secular nation as directed by those who penned the consittution. That means that citizens of the United States that don't believe in God are protected as well as those that do. The idea was to make it a free nation reguardless of mans thoughts. However they did not establish America. None of them were able to make James town. Those that came here, by and large, so they could practice their freedom of religion.The funny thing about Washington, Jefferson and ect. Every goverment building built in Washington during those times were designed and built with reference to God being prominate in some sort of the building. You can go see that. In that you can also see some, at sometime were religious. They more than likely were all drawn to God just prior to death.

So you and I have equal rights. You can't take my rights from me to secure your rights and I'll not try to take your rights away from you to secure mine. That would not the the freedom granted to either of us by the same men you quote. Do you understand that?

If you can find stores that suit your non religion then by all means buy from them. That too is one of your rights. I'll not try and stop you unless you try to interfer my buying at a store that promotes God. If you do that we will alway have a problem. I don't stand outside a store and profess faith in God. That is stupid. Do you parade in front of stores and profess your non faith? Where and how do you put yourself in a position to be yelled at and screamed at. I guess campainging for or againt religion in a public venue gives your opponant a equal right to fire back. I just suggest that if thats the place you put yourself in, You better develope selective hearing.

See, really you don't don't want equal freedoms for me. I allow you do do what ever you want but you seek to curtail my freedoms You want to impose on mine. This whiney, whiney cry baby, hurt feelings stuff you throw out is a bunch of coverup junk.

Maybe you should try some other religion other that the one you were raised in. You just never can tell.
This is all that my religion requires of me. I'm told to tell you of God but not argue about it. Thats all I can do.

But being a Christian is hard. If it were not so hard every one would be one.

[Bobcat81]

Let me elagorate a little further on my last post. I'm not saying that some of the amendments to the Costitution are bad, they are just. (I.E; the right to vote, due process, right to a fair trail, etc.) But some have taken a turn for the worse and really need to be revamped.

Certain media rights for one. (One big reason for corruption in this country).

Education - No prayer in school, no corporal punishment, selective text (What the govt. wants you to know and not what you should know).

Criminals -The rights criminals have these days (that they shouldn't be forced to work, deserve bond even though they've killed or preyed upon children) is absurd.

Aliens - People not of this country, should not have the same constitutional rights that we do. (MO).

Foreign/Domestic Combatants - i.e; Terrorist, saboteurs, conspirators, spies, & POW's) should not be awarded contitution rights, only the rights under the Geneva Convention (which brings me to a whole other topic on Bush's war on terrorism - another thread possibly).
**I still think certain forms of "uncomfortable interrogation" are completely acceptable.

I could go on & on but you see how the Liberal mindset has caused problems when they start to mess with the foundation of our existance as a country.

Oh how i would love to go back to the days when you could leave your doors unlocked, keys in the car, windows open, walk down the street without fear of being robbed, ra*ed or killed. Or having everything that wasn't bolted, welded, or locked down,..stolen from you (And NOT be able to defend it!). The days when an "accident" was still an accident, and lawyers were in their offices minding their dues instead of helping idiots win suits over spilled hot coffee, and altering someones pants a little too short. :rolleyes:

Liberals.. Gotta love 'em!

[the_phoenix612]

You have part of something right. It is a secular nation as directed by those who penned the consittution. That means that citizens of the United States that don't believe in God are protected as well as those that do. The idea was to make it a free nation reguardless of mans thoughts. However they did not establish America. None of them were able to make James town. Those that came here, by and large, so they could practice their freedom of religion.The funny thing about Washington, Jefferson and ect. Every goverment building built in Washington during those times were designed and built with reference to God being prominate in some sort of the building. You can go see that. In that you can also see some, at sometime were religious. They more than likely were all drawn to God just prior to death.

So you and I have equal rights. You can't take my rights from me to secure your rights and I'll not try to take your rights away from you to secure mine. That would not the the freedom granted to either of us by the same men you quote. Do you understand that?

If you can find stores that suit your non religion then by all means buy from them. That too is one of your rights. I'll not try and stop you unless you try to interfer my buying at a store that promotes God. If you do that we will alway have a problem. I don't stand outside a store and profess faith in God. That is stupid. Do you parade in front of stores and profess your non faith? Where and how do you put yourself in a position to be yelled at and screamed at. I guess campainging for or againt religion in a public venue gives your opponant a equal right to fire back. I just suggest that if thats the place you put yourself in, You better develope selective hearing.

See, really you don't don't want equal freedoms for me. I allow you do do what ever you want but you seek to curtail my freedoms You want to impose on mine. This whiney, whiney cry baby, hurt feelings stuff you throw out is a bunch of coverup junk.

Maybe you should try some other religion other that the one you were raised in. You just never can tell.
This is all that my religion requires of me. I'm told to tell you of God but not argue about it. Thats all I can do.

But being a Christian is hard. If it were not so hard every one would be one.

No. I dont want any unequal rights for you.
You have every right to believe what you want.
BUT, when two people's belifs collide, I think that neither party should express their beleifs i.e. homosexual affiars i.e. Christmas trees being renamed Holiday trees.
If your belief is that they are wrong, and you cannot leave them alone, you are then being a bigot.

The founding of Jamestown was the founding of an English colony, founded by a group of Puritans.


Really, the only way I see to get you guys to understand how it is is to propose this situation:

Suppose you lived in a country formed by revolution. The colonies which originally made up the country were founded by a strict sect of Muslims. After the revolution, however, a small group of "closet Christians" founded the nation with belief that you had the freedom to practice whatever religion you wanted. You are a Christian. You are also a woman. Now imagine that Christians compose 9% of the population, and 85% of the population is Muslim.

They certainly have a right to belive what they want, as do you. The only problems arise when the ruling group, in this case muslims, decide they want their morality to be reflected in laws (i.e. bans against gay marraige, abortion laws, etc. etc. in TODAYS nation) like women being forced to wear veils, or stoning being instated as a form of punishment.

your parents brought you up as a Muslim, but you had a Spiritual revaltion, and have become a Christian. You are mocked in school, forbidden to run for elected office, and see your fellow christians harassed by the government for their beliefs.

you express your beliefs freely on the internet, but are persecuted against subtly in everyday life by things like schools having to bow toward Mecca 3 times during the day, and celebrating Ramadan as a national holiday.

you are outraged at this recent turn of events, but are replied to with the argument that the country was originally founded as a Muslim nation. You know this is wrong, and when you back up your statements with documental evidence, you are replied to with an opinion article.


Can you see how you would be outraged????
if you would like the stories of the examples i gave, just ask...

[the_phoenix612]

dp

[the_phoenix612]

There are publications that have not been in print for some time now that dispute the theory that "we are not a Christian Nation", and are not a "Theocracy". In reality, we actually are.

In The Mayflower Compact, 1620:
"In the name of God, Amen, We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign lord King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith and the honor of our king and country, a Voyage to plant the first colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; do by the presents, solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politick, for our better ordering and preservation and Furtherance of other Ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof do enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most [suitable] and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."

I would encourage further reading on the subject of how this nation was founded as a Christian Nation.


Publications that are recently coming back into print since the recent arguments concerning the separation of church & state:

"Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the U.S." - B.F. Morris (1864) /Reprint-Gary DeMar

America's Christian History: The Untold Story by Gary DeMar: "Christianity is written on every page of America's amazing history. Gary DeMar presents well-documented facts which will change your perspective about what it means to be a Christian in America; the truth about America's Christian past as it relates to supreme court justices, and presidents; the Christian character of colonial charters, state constitutions, and the US Constitution; the Christian foundation of colleges, the Christian character of Washington, D.C.; the origin of Thanksgiving, etc."


Mayflower Compact = not founding of america
the mayflower compact founded a colony of Great Britain.
If you long for those days, move to The Falkland Islands.

[the_phoenix612]

Let me elagorate a little further on my last post. I'm not saying that some of the amendments to the Costitution are bad, they are just. (I.E; the right to vote, due process, right to a fair trail, etc.) But some have taken a turn for the worse and really need to be revamped.

Certain media rights for one. (One big reason for corruption in this country).

Education - No prayer in school, no corporal punishment, selective text (What the govt. wants you to know and not what you should know).

Criminals -The rights criminals have these days (that they shouldn't be forced to work, deserve bond even though they've killed or preyed upon children) is absurd.

Aliens - People not of this country, should not have the same constitutional rights that we do. (MO).

Foreign/Domestic Combatants - i.e; Terrorist, saboteurs, conspirators, spies, & POW's) should not be awarded contitution rights, only the rights under the Geneva Convention (which brings me to a whole other topic on Bush's war on terrorism - another thread possibly).
**I still think certain forms of "uncomfortable interrogation" are completely acceptable.

I could go on & on but you see how the Liberal mindset has caused problems when they start to mess with the foundation of our existance as a country.

Oh how i would love to go back to the days when you could leave your doors unlocked, keys in the car, windows open, walk down the street without fear of being robbed, ra*ed or killed. Or having everything that wasn't bolted, welded, or locked down,..stolen from you (And NOT be able to defend it!). The days when an "accident" was still an accident, and lawyers were in their offices minding their dues instead of helping idiots win suits over spilled hot coffee, and altering someones pants a little too short. :rolleyes:

Liberals.. Gotta love 'em!

Prayer in school is an idea that horrifies me.
Before you suggest we have prayer in school, ask yourself how comfortable you would be with your child's school promoting salah (muslim prayers toward Mecca) everyday.

again, the US was NOT founded on Christianity, or any other religion.
Jamestown was.
Jamestown became part of Virgina.
Virginia became part of the United States of America.
When that last part happened, all the other consitutions and compacts and agreements became null and void.
in that last Consitution, the only one that matters, the US is NOT founded on the Christian nation.

[t-long20]

Prayer in school is an idea that horrifies me.


Its people like you the reason our nation is so screwed-up with its PC now.

We can't do that, we can't do this. All because some whiner finds it offensive. If you don't like the way we do things around here than please move to canada.

[The Dude]

Phoenix, you make a reasonable and accurate agrument against the founding of this nation and Christian principles. I really have no debate to which you are saying. I believe in freedom of religion, I just don't believe in the validity of other religions rather than Christianity. I will solely present someone with the message of Jesus Christ and what I believe to be true and the only way into Heaven. However, I'm not going to try to force my beliefs onto anyone. It's everyone's individual choice. I do not agree with prayer not being allowed in school though, but I don't believe it should be "promoted" as you said, by any school official. I do think if a teacher wishes to pray or a student wishes to pray publicly, that's his/her decision and there shouldn't be any consequences. If a muslim wants to do his regular salah prayers, then I'm all for it. As long as I can pray to my God, they can pray to theirs, and that's the way it should be.

[Bobcat81]

Mayflower Compact = not founding of america
the mayflower compact founded a colony of Great Britain.
If you long for those days, move to The Falkland Islands.

The Mayflower Contract basically means "The Government must act in the Name of God." and that was the basic ideal of the colonists when they came here. They weren't intended specifically for other colonies.

Even later times in the colonies there are acknowledgements that our country should be governed by the Christian faith;

MARYLAND CHARTER, 1632: [Issued by King Charles to Lord Baltimore] "Our well beloved and right trusty subject Coecilius Calvert, Baron of Baltimore . . . being animated with a laudable, and pious Zeal for extending the Christian Religion . . . hath humbly besought Leave of Us that he may transport . . . a numerous Colony of the English Nation, to a certain Region . . . having no Knowledge of the Divine Being." The Government must extend the Christian religion.

NEW ENGLAND CONFEDERATION, 1643: [Composed of Mass., Conn., New Plymouth, and New Haven] "We all came into these parts of America, with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Government must extend the Christian religion


The Bible (including the Old Testament) Must be the Standard for Civil Government
The Statute Books of the Government were annotated with Biblical references to show that the laws of the State conformed to the Laws of God:
NEW HAVEN COLONY LAW, 1644: "The judicial laws of God as they were delivered by Moses . . . [are to] be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction."

NORTH CAROLINA CHARTER, 1662 (QUAKER): "Excited with a laudable and pious zeal for the propagation of the Christian faith . . . in the parts of America not yet cultivated or planted, and only inhabited by . . . people, who have no knowledge of Almighty God."

RHODE ISLAND CHARTER, 1663: [Granted by King Charles II] "That they pursuing with peace and loyal mindes, their sober, serious and religious intentions . . . in the holy Christian faith . . . a most flourishing civil state may stand, and best be maintained grounded upon gospel principles."

PENNSYLVANIA'S FIRST LEGISLATIVE ACT, 1682: "Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of Mankind, is the reason and end of government, and therefore, government in itself is a venerable Ordinance of God, therefore, it is the purpose of civil government to establish such laws as shall best preserve true Christian and Civil Liberty, in opposition to all Unchristian, Licentious, and unjust practices, (Whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due), from tyranny and oppression . . . ."
This is the power of civil government. That power will either be used to cultivate the Christian religion, or it will be used to destroy it and harvest the fruits of violence, theft, and misery. See any resemblence of the later in todays society?? Absolutely!

Hope that clarifies that the original intention of governing rule & law were intended to take place in this nation..on this continent. It was common thought & practice and was utilised in our form of government from the start.

[jakerz]

Its people like you the reason our nation is so screwed-up with its PC now.

We can't do that, we can't do this. All because some whiner finds it offensive. If you don't like the way we do things around here than please move to canada.

He actually made an interesting point. If there was Christian prayer allowed in school then you must allow every other religion prayer as well.

[mojotrain]

No. I dont want any unequal rights for you.
You have every right to believe what you want.
BUT, when two people's belifs collide, I think that neither party should express their beleifs i.e. homosexual affiars i.e. Christmas trees being renamed Holiday trees.
If your belief is that they are wrong, and you cannot leave them alone, you are then being a bigot.

The founding of Jamestown was the founding of an English colony, founded by a group of Puritans.


Really, the only way I see to get you guys to understand how it is is to propose this situation:

Suppose you lived in a country formed by revolution. The colonies which originally made up the country were founded by a strict sect of Muslims. After the revolution, however, a small group of "closet Christians" founded the nation with belief that you had the freedom to practice whatever religion you wanted. You are a Christian. You are also a woman. Now imagine that Christians compose 9% of the population, and 85% of the population is Muslim.

They certainly have a right to belive what they want, as do you. The only problems arise when the ruling group, in this case muslims, decide they want their morality to be reflected in laws (i.e. bans against gay marraige, abortion laws, etc. etc. in TODAYS nation) like women being forced to wear veils, or stoning being instated as a form of punishment.

your parents brought you up as a Muslim, but you had a Spiritual revaltion, and have become a Christian. You are mocked in school, forbidden to run for elected office, and see your fellow christians harassed by the government for their beliefs.

you express your beliefs freely on the internet, but are persecuted against subtly in everyday life by things like schools having to bow toward Mecca 3 times during the day, and celebrating Ramadan as a national holiday.

you are outraged at this recent turn of events, but are replied to with the argument that the country was originally founded as a Muslim nation. You know this is wrong, and when you back up your statements with documental evidence, you are replied to with an opinion article.


Can you see how you would be outraged????
if you would like the stories of the examples i gave, just ask...

No, I would get a group of followers together get in a boat and sail to a country where I could celebrate my religion in any way I saw fit. On the other hand if I were a Baptist in a Non free Muslim nation I would remain a Baptist but my life would be one of those, don't ask and I won't tell things.

If I lived in a State that wouldn't allow me to run for public office and I was Hell bent on doing so, I'd move to a state where I could run. As for Texas if you were allowed to run for a public office and you let the voters know you didn't believe in God. Your done. Who would you whine to? Who would you bring suit against.
I say do what you want to do. If you want to sell Holliday trees for breaking bondage from your parents teachings,(your original entry into this fray) at Lowes, go ahead I won't buy and you won't force me to buy. But the documents that gives you the right to do what you do is the same document that you want to use to suppress my ideas. I won't buy a holliday tree from You or Lowes. If the local hardware store allows me to paint a cross on their front door,I'll do so and I'll buy from them under the same protection that you demand to shut me and my store down. I do hope you understand this.

Take one of your books or go to your search engine and find the word Freedom. That should say it all. If you still don't agree just learn to live with it. Again you might try attending a church near you. Tell the Pastor your a non believer and ask him to to the best he can to convince you or don't tell him, no one will even ask. Listen intently, open first your mind then your heart. After a year if you still don't believe, say no thanks and walk away. I promise you this you won't be hurt by the experience and you might find a new world of friends if you work at it. I found that Baptist ladys are the best cooks and if you happen to be looking and can find a Baptist lady who is also hispanic you will owe me forever.
If you reply to this post, please try to word it so I won't feel compelled to reply. I just don't have anything else of value to add. I thank you in advance for any consideration of this request.

[the_phoenix612]

Phoenix, you make a reasonable and accurate agrument against the founding of this nation and Christian principles. I really have no debate to which you are saying. I believe in freedom of religion, I just don't believe in the validity of other religions rather than Christianity. I will solely present someone with the message of Jesus Christ and what I believe to be true and the only way into Heaven. However, I'm not going to try to force my beliefs onto anyone. It's everyone's individual choice. I do not agree with prayer not being allowed in school though, but I don't believe it should be "promoted" as you said, by any school official. I do think if a teacher wishes to pray or a student wishes to pray publicly, that's his/her decision and there shouldn't be any consequences. If a muslim wants to do his regular salah prayers, then I'm all for it. As long as I can pray to my God, they can pray to theirs, and that's the way it should be.

See, I hold no grudge against people praying in school.
I am, in fact, against any resolution or law saying you may not pray in a school.
I will fight tooth and nail any law or resolution that either promotes or mandates said prayer.
you managed to sum up my points perfectly.
I understand your religion, and have no problem with people "presenting me message"s. I have a problem with people discriminating.

[the_phoenix612]

The Mayflower Contract basically means "The Government must act in the Name of God." and that was the basic ideal of the colonists when they came here. They weren't intended specifically for other colonies.

Even later times in the colonies there are acknowledgements that our country should be governed by the Christian faith;

MARYLAND CHARTER, 1632: [Issued by King Charles to Lord Baltimore] "Our well beloved and right trusty subject Coecilius Calvert, Baron of Baltimore . . . being animated with a laudable, and pious Zeal for extending the Christian Religion . . . hath humbly besought Leave of Us that he may transport . . . a numerous Colony of the English Nation, to a certain Region . . . having no Knowledge of the Divine Being." The Government must extend the Christian religion.

NEW ENGLAND CONFEDERATION, 1643: [Composed of Mass., Conn., New Plymouth, and New Haven] "We all came into these parts of America, with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Government must extend the Christian religion


The Bible (including the Old Testament) Must be the Standard for Civil Government
The Statute Books of the Government were annotated with Biblical references to show that the laws of the State conformed to the Laws of God:
NEW HAVEN COLONY LAW, 1644: "The judicial laws of God as they were delivered by Moses . . . [are to] be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction."

NORTH CAROLINA CHARTER, 1662 (QUAKER): "Excited with a laudable and pious zeal for the propagation of the Christian faith . . . in the parts of America not yet cultivated or planted, and only inhabited by . . . people, who have no knowledge of Almighty God."

RHODE ISLAND CHARTER, 1663: [Granted by King Charles II] "That they pursuing with peace and loyal mindes, their sober, serious and religious intentions . . . in the holy Christian faith . . . a most flourishing civil state may stand, and best be maintained grounded upon gospel principles."

PENNSYLVANIA'S FIRST LEGISLATIVE ACT, 1682: "Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of Mankind, is the reason and end of government, and therefore, government in itself is a venerable Ordinance of God, therefore, it is the purpose of civil government to establish such laws as shall best preserve true Christian and Civil Liberty, in opposition to all Unchristian, Licentious, and unjust practices, (Whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due), from tyranny and oppression . . . ."
This is the power of civil government. That power will either be used to cultivate the Christian religion, or it will be used to destroy it and harvest the fruits of violence, theft, and misery. See any resemblence of the later in todays society?? Absolutely!

Hope that clarifies that the original intention of governing rule & law were intended to take place in this nation..on this continent. It was common thought & practice and was utilised in our form of government from the start.

OKAY.
FOR THE LAST TIME
ANYTHING BEFORE 1776 DOES NOT COUNT
the original state charters mean NOTHING today.
they are reflections of the few original very pious Puritans who settled a tiny little settlement.
NOT the establishment of this country.
North Carolina, maybe.
United States, no.
How can you not understand this point?
i will consider your point of view when you quote a document written after 1787(ratification of the constitution, if you didnt know.)

[the_phoenix612]

No, I would get a group of followers together get in a boat and sail to a country where I could celebrate my religion in any way I saw fit. On the other hand if I were a Baptist in a Non free Muslim nation I would remain a Baptist but my life would be one of those, don't ask and I won't tell things.

If I lived in a State that wouldn't allow me to run for public office and I was Hell bent on doing so, I'd move to a state where I could run. As for Texas if you were allowed to run for a public office and you let the voters know you didn't believe in God. Your done. Who would you whine to? Who would you bring suit against.
I say do what you want to do. If you want to sell Holliday trees for breaking bondage from your parents teachings,(your original entry into this fray) at Lowes, go ahead I won't buy and you won't force me to buy. But the documents that gives you the right to do what you do is the same document that you want to use to suppress my ideas. I won't buy a holliday tree from You or Lowes. If the local hardware store allows me to paint a cross on their front door,I'll do so and I'll buy from them under the same protection that you demand to shut me and my store down. I do hope you understand this.

Take one of your books or go to your search engine and find the word Freedom. That should say it all. If you still don't agree just learn to live with it. Again you might try attending a church near you. Tell the Pastor your a non believer and ask him to to the best he can to convince you or don't tell him, no one will even ask. Listen intently, open first your mind then your heart. After a year if you still don't believe, say no thanks and walk away. I promise you this you won't be hurt by the experience and you might find a new world of friends if you work at it. I found that Baptist ladys are the best cooks and if you happen to be looking and can find a Baptist lady who is also hispanic you will owe me forever.
If you reply to this post, please try to word it so I won't feel compelled to reply. I just don't have anything else of value to add. I thank you in advance for any consideration of this request.

when i first started silipping from the Catholic faith, I did just that.
I attended Religious Education classes for a year and a half and spent a lot of time soul-searching as it were.
After a year and a half, i did in fact say no thanks and walked away.
some of my best friends are christians, some of my best friends are buddhist, some of my best friends are muslim, some of my best friends are hindu, some of my best friends are jewish, some of my best friends are atheist, and one of my friends is wiccan.
can you say the same? (rhetorical, so you dont have to answer)

after your first reply to me, I thought you were honestly interested in what i had to say.

I sincerely apologize for such a massive mistake of judgement.

[t-long20]

He actually made an interesting point. If there was Christian prayer allowed in school then you must allow every other religion prayer as well.

It's called freedom of religion. I cant stop someone from praying so why should he have a right to stop me?

[Bobcat81]

Prayer in school is an idea that horrifies me.
Before you suggest we have prayer in school, ask yourself how comfortable you would be with your child's school promoting salah (muslim prayers toward Mecca) everyday.

again, the US was NOT founded on Christianity, or any other religion.
Jamestown was.
Jamestown became part of Virgina.
Virginia became part of the United States of America.
When that last part happened, all the other consitutions and compacts and agreements became null and void.
in that last Consitution, the only one that matters, the US is NOT founded on the Christian nation.


The Founders of this nation did not believe in the ACLU doctrine of "Separation of Church and State." Both Church and State were under the obligation to propagate the Christian Faith, using different methods. The Constitution of 1787 was ratified on the assurance that the Federal Government would have no power to destroy the long-established Christian traditions of the various states. It was universally understood that the governments would be subservient to God, and would implement God's Law.

I'm satisfied that the members that wrote the Constitution & Declaration had every sense of religion in their minds & hearts when they wrote those documents. Their reasoning and explanations are filled full of the Christian faith when it comes to American fundamentals and i believe that carried over into the core foundation of what this country was born under.

[DragonWatcher]

You CAN pray in school, I don't know where conservatives seemed to hear that they can't. Every school in Texas does, prayer around the pole, etc. The law simply states that a GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE cannot lead students in prayer and students can not use GOVERNMENT EQUIPMENT, i.e. a school loudspeaker. It's not not that hard of a concept to grasp, I don't want a government employee choosing what or how I'm going to pray. If you want to pray you can, if you don't then you don't, everyone wins.

[DrEdward]

....

The founding of Jamestown was the founding of an English colony, founded by a group of Puritans.

...

It's late and I'll add to this response tomorrow. But simply as a point of fact, the Jamestown settlement was not established by a group of Puritans. It was part of a commercial venture. Yet the first thing that group of future Virginians did when reaching the new world at what is now known as Cape Charles was to plant a cross and give thanks to God for a safe crossing. They then proceeded to navigate through what is now Hampton Roads and up James River to the site where James fort was built which became Jamestown. Also still present on the site are the remains of an Anglican church, hardly the comfort zone for Puritans. In any event, the settlement of Jametown occured in 1607 and the Puritans didn't show up in Massachusetts until 1621.

[Firebird]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

[jakerz]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

Amen !!

[The Dude]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

Great post, most of which I agree with. However, one thing I'll argue: God may not need the U.S., but the U.S. needs God.

"Blessed in the nation whose God is The Lord" - Psalms 33:12

[HUM398]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.


You need to get your scripture straight.

God needs nothing. remember that.

[HUM398]

God is worthy of praise.

God is worthy of glory.


God is worthy of the attention he gets in a public setting.

God is worthy to have his name on currency instead of that of a idol of man.

God is worthy to have his commandments etched in stone for all to see.

God is worthy of being mentioned by a Government

God is worthy.


"i must decrees, for him to INCREASE"

[Firebird]

You need to get your scripture straight.

God needs nothing. remember that.

God needs...and demands...many things. God could chose to simply blast out his message from the sky. Or force us into it. But that's not how He wants things done. God needs us to do it.

God needed Peter. God needed Jonah. God needed Paul. Not because He needs our attention or work to survive. He'll get along just fine without it. But He does have a task here on earth that He wants to be done. And He needs us to do it....because that is the way He wants it done. So in that sense he very much does need something from us.

There is much work but few laborers. And far too many are wasting their time arguing about currency and what the state should do rather than what God really wants them to do.

[Bobcat81]

OKAY.
FOR THE LAST TIME
ANYTHING BEFORE 1776 DOES NOT COUNTthe original state charters mean NOTHING today.
they are reflections of the few original very pious Puritans who settled a tiny little settlement.
NOT the establishment of this country.
North Carolina, maybe.
United States, no.
How can you not understand this point?
i will consider your point of view when you quote a document written after 1787(ratification of the constitution, if you didnt know.)

See post #159 above also in response

Quotes are from the book i mentioned earlier. (See above)

ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE, FRENCH HISTORIAN: "The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other . . . In the United States, if a political character attacks a sect [denomination], this may not prevent even the partisans of that very sect, from supporting him; but if he attacks all the sects together [Christianity], every one abandons him and he remains alone."(In bold signifies existence after the nation was formed)

NOAH WEBSTER, 1828: "In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed . . . No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." (After 1776)

JOHN ADAMS, August 28, 1811: "Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society." (After 1776)

JOHN WITHERSPOON: " . . . he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not [would not hesitate] to call him an enemy to his country."

MARYLAND SUPREME COURT, 1799: "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty. (After 1776)

JAMES MADISON: "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future . . . upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God." (Probably after 1776 because he is using past action, present tense)

From the book:
"The Puritans who founded this land defended Christian Theocracy and established Theocratic (God-honoring) systems of civil government. The idea that civil governments should allow God to rule (Theo-cracy) human society was ubiquitous. If Gary North is right and a Secular Humanist conspiracy attempted to overthrow this Christian consensus through Article VI of the Constitution, the First Amendment of the Constitution attempted to keep that from happening."

SUPREME COURT JUSTICE JOSEPH STORY on the First Amendment: "We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence, than the framers of the Constitution) . . . Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the first amendment to it . . . . the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation . . . The real object of the amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity [secularism], by prostrating Christianity; but exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government." (After 1776)

All of these voices are summed up in the Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. http://vlex.com/vid/20058476 (1892) - (Lower end of the page)"There is no other legitimate purpose for any human action than the advancement of the Kingdom of God." Patriotism (advancing the interests of a political coalition) is wrong; Humanism (advancing your own personal interests) is wrong; Satanism (advancing demonic interests) is wrong. Since all action runs to some purpose, if the purpose is not the building of God's Kingdom, then it is to build a rival Kingdom. There is no neutrality. The State cannot be impartial and non-religious.

Pretty clear indicators that the founders of America implimented Christian beliefs into the rule of governing mankind in a free society. Without it, they obviously foresaw the pending implications of having such a nation without Christianity firmly embeded into our form of government.

[Firebird]

See post #159 above also in response

Quotes are from the book i mentioned earlier. (See above)

ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE, FRENCH HISTORIAN: "The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other . . . In the United States, if a political character attacks a sect [denomination], this may not prevent even the partisans of that very sect, from supporting him; but if he attacks all the sects together [Christianity], every one abandons him and he remains alone."(In bold signifies existence after the nation was formed)

NOAH WEBSTER, 1828: "In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed . . . No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." (After 1776)

JOHN ADAMS, August 28, 1811: "Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society." (After 1776)

JOHN WITHERSPOON: " . . . he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not [would not hesitate] to call him an enemy to his country."

MARYLAND SUPREME COURT, 1799: "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty. (After 1776)

JAMES MADISON: "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future . . . upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God." (Probably after 1776 because he is using past action, present tense)

From the book:
"The Puritans who founded this land defended Christian Theocracy and established Theocratic (God-honoring) systems of civil government. The idea that civil governments should allow God to rule (Theo-cracy) human society was ubiquitous. If Gary North is right and a Secular Humanist conspiracy attempted to overthrow this Christian consensus through Article VI of the Constitution, the First Amendment of the Constitution attempted to keep that from happening."

SUPREME COURT JUSTICE JOSEPH STORY on the First Amendment: "We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence, than the framers of the Constitution) . . . Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the first amendment to it . . . . the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation . . . The real object of the amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity [secularism], by prostrating Christianity; but exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government." (After 1776)

All of these voices are summed up in the Opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. http://vlex.com/vid/20058476 (1892) - (Lower end of the page)"There is no other legitimate purpose for any human action than the advancement of the Kingdom of God." Patriotism (advancing the interests of a political coalition) is wrong; Humanism (advancing your own personal interests) is wrong; Satanism (advancing demonic interests) is wrong. Since all action runs to some purpose, if the purpose is not the building of God's Kingdom, then it is to build a rival Kingdom. There is no neutrality. The State cannot be impartial and non-religious.

Pretty clear indicators that the founders of America implimented Christian beliefs into the rule of governing mankind in a free society. Without it, they obviously foresaw the pending implications of having such a nation without Christianity firmly embeded into our form of government.

Even if all of what you wrote is the whole story and picture....which it is not....I have to wonder how happy Jesus would have been in this mythical "Christian" America......

http://www.afscstore.org/store/images/0809015544.jpg

It's telling that the last thing on the apostles' agenda was the establishment of a Christian state.

[HUM398]

God needs...and demands...many things. God could chose to simply blast out his message from the sky. Or force us into it. But that's not how He wants things done. God needs us to do it.

God needed Peter. God needed Jonah. God needed Paul. Not because He needs our attention or work to survive. He'll get along just fine without it. But He does have a task here on earth that He wants to be done. And He needs us to do it....because that is the way He wants it done. So in that sense he very much does need something from us.

There is much work but few laborers. And far too many are wasting their time arguing about currency and what the state should do rather than what God really wants them to do.

God doesn't NEED us.

Need is indicative to dependence....God doesn't depend on us...We depend on him.

No where in the scripture says God needs us...Simply tells us to Obey him, and carry out his will...Who will prevent his will from being done? He can make the winds howl his message, and donkey and rocks speak the truth.

His will...is going to be accomplished whether we move forward or not. We are the manner in which he chooses to accomplish his will.

To say God needs us...is to imply that he isn't 100% sovereign.

[Firebird]

God doesn't NEED us.

Need is indicative to dependence....God doesn't depend on us...We depend on him.

No where in the scripture says God needs us...Simply tells us to Obey him, and carry out his will...Who will prevent his will from being done? He can make the winds howl his message, and donkey and rocks speak the truth.

His will...is going to be accomplished whether we move forward or not. We are the manner in which he chooses to accomplish his will.

To say God needs us...is to imply that he isn't 100% sovereign.


Absolute nonsense. God has a plan. God wants the plan implemented in a certain way. That way involves human cooperation. Thus, God needs us to fulfill his plan in the way He wants it done. God can make the rocks cry out but He's established that He's not going to approach things that way. He needs us, fragile vessels though we are, to carry his message.

It's not that He couldn't do it with out us. It's that He doesn't want to. The whole thing is useless to Him without our free cooperation and thus we can indeed speak about God needing us.

[Taterbug]

God doesn't NEED us.

Need is indicative to dependence....God doesn't depend on us...We depend on him.

No where in the scripture says God needs us...Simply tells us to Obey him, and carry out his will...Who will prevent his will from being done? He can make the winds howl his message, and donkey and rocks speak the truth.

His will...is going to be accomplished whether we move forward or not. We are the manner in which he chooses to accomplish his will.

To say God needs us...is to imply that he isn't 100% sovereign.

Exactly. God didnt make us because He needs us. He made us because He loves us. God doesnt need us, we need God.

[HUM398]

God doesn't NEED us.

Need is indicative to dependence....God doesn't depend on us...We depend on him.

No where in the scripture says God needs us...Simply tells us to Obey him, and carry out his will...Who will prevent his will from being done? He can make the winds howl his message, and donkey and rocks speak the truth.

His will...is going to be accomplished whether we move forward or not. We are the manner in which he chooses to accomplish his will.

To say God needs us...is to imply that he isn't 100% sovereign.


Absolute nonsense. God has a plan. God wants the plan implemented in a certain way. That way involves human cooperation. Thus, God needs us to fulfill his plan in the way He wants it done. God can make the rocks cry out but He's established that He's not going to approach things that way. He needs us, fragile vessels though we are, to carry his message.

It's not that He couldn't do it with out us. It's that He doesn't want to. The whole thing is useless to Him without our free cooperation and thus we can indeed speak about God needing us.

Really? how is that?

What is your scriptural bases for this view point that God...DEPENDS on man?

Man doesn't have the ability to accept Christ on their own...so what makes you think that God would depend on a creature in need of savior to accomplish his will?

No...no...no.

God Chooses man to accomplish his will...and it WILL be done. not maybe...not if we want to...It WILL.

[Firebird]

Really? how is that?

What is your scriptural bases for this view point that God...DEPENDS on man?

Man doesn't have the ability to accept Christ on their own...so what makes you think that God would depend on a creature in need of savior to accomplish his will?

No...no...no.

God Chooses man to accomplish his will...and it WILL be done. not maybe...not if we want to...It WILL.

You need to get off the Hyper-Calvinist kool-aid. God doesn't want automatons. He wants us to cooperate and participate in our own salvation. God doesn't want to accomplish His will through use of blunt force. He wants to do it through gentle persuasion, the small still voice, and the dedication of His servants.

It's participatory, not controlled. God makes nothing, not even His grace, compulsory. We can thwart his desires....

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[Taterbug]

Absolute nonsense. God has a plan. God wants the plan implemented in a certain way. That way involves human cooperation. Thus, God needs us to fulfill his plan in the way He wants it done. God can make the rocks cry out but He's established that He's not going to approach things that way. He needs us, fragile vessels though we are, to carry his message.

It's not that He couldn't do it with out us. It's that He doesn't want to. The whole thing is useless to Him without our free cooperation and thus we can indeed speak about God needing us.[/QUOTE]

We worship God because of who He is, and in turn, our worship instills a desire to serve Him by ministering to others. When we serve Him, the greater the desire to obey Him, which in turn leads to more worship. Our motives and attitudes should never hinge on the idea that He needs us. If one ever feels that God needs him, then that would make God seem less than what He is. God doesnt need me to do any favors for Him.
Heres scripture to back up my point. Acts 17: 24-25
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

[Bobcat81]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

I agree where you're coming from and it is right. Furthermore, God also wants those in control to be in good faith with him and make the petty decisions right. He wants the teachers, the lawyers, the judges, and the heads of state who make secondary decisions of his people, to be on the right course and help affirm those beliefs so that we see (or at least feel) the presence from all forms of our existence & way of life.

We don't necessarily need an open bible at the entrance to a courthouse to make it feel worthy of the decisions that are made upon us. We need the bodies in positions of power and authority to affirm that we are going to be treated & judged here on earth in accordance to the devine laws of God.

That's why i believe that an oath is appropriate for the swearing in process of anyone seeking a State, Federal, or form of "Public Service" position, and should only be performed with the "Bible" and not the Kuran, or any other form of religious publication.

[HUM398]

You need to get off the Hyper-Calvinist kool-aid. God doesn't want automatons. He wants us to cooperate and participate in our own salvation. God doesn't want to accomplish His will through use of blunt force. He wants to do it through gentle persuasion, the small still voice, and the dedication of His servants.

It's participatory, not controlled. God makes nothing, not even His grace, compulsory. We can thwart his desires....

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and [B]ye would not!

Romans 9:16-18
16.So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that shows mercy. 17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."


and..Im not a Hyper-Calvinist....hell, im not even a Calvinist... I Believe the bible.

[Firebird]

I agree where you're coming from and it is right. Furthermore, God also wants those in control to be in good faith with him and make the petty decisions right. He wants the teachers, the lawyers, the judges, and the heads of state who make secondary decisions of his people, to be on the right course and help affirm those beliefs so that we see (or at least feel) the presence from all forms of our existence & way of life.

We don't necessarily need an open bible at the entrance to a courthouse to make it feel worthy of the decisions that are made upon us. We need the bodies in positions of power and authority to affirm that we are going to be treated & judged here on earth in accordance to the devine laws of God.

That's why i believe that an oath is appropriate for the swearing in process of anyone seeking a State, Federal, or form of "Public Service" position, and should only be performed with the "Bible" and not the Kuran, or any other form of religious publication.

Who's going to adjuticate God's law here on earth? Sorry, but I choose the laws of the United States and the State of Texas. Let God sort things out later on.;)

[Firebird]

Romans 9:16-18
16.So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that shows mercy. 17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."


and..Im not a Hyper-Calvinist....hell, im not even a Calvinist... I Believe the bible.

Except for the parts where it says we have a choice in things, though.

[Taterbug]

Except for the parts where it says we have a choice in things, though.

We have only two choices. Obey or disobey. Your attitude smacks of pridefulness.
Its not about what we deem as our successes in our service to God, but about our love to Jesus. It is about Gods love, not about His needs.
When Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem, the people were greeting Him with " Hosanna". The pharisees told Jesus to rebuke the shouting people. But Jesus said, "If the crowds become silent, these stones will shout out" (See Luke 19).
As far as the area of usefullness, we can be replaced by stones.

[HUM398]

Except for the parts where it says we have a choice in things, though.

Im not implying that your are a robot Firebird...im pointing out Scripture.

God's will can't be prevented....or hindered. FACT.

So logically, its absurd for you to assume that God's will won't be accomplished simply because a man doesn't want to comply. Doesn't the potter have power over the clay? like said, a Sovereign God depends on nothing....He gives life, and HE feeds his flock.

You think that if Mary said no to bearing the Son of God, that his coming could of been hindered...stopped...halted?

[HUM398]

We have only two choices. Obey or disobey. Your attitude smacks of pridefulness.
Its not about what we deem as our successes in our service to God, but about our love to Jesus. It is about Gods love, not about His needs.

You got it...;)

he has no needs. if he did, he wouldn't be God.

[Firebird]

Im not implying that your are a robot Firebird...im pointing out Scripture.

God's will can't be prevented....or hindered. FACT.

So logically, its absurd for you to assume that God's will won't be accomplished simply because a man doesn't want to comply. Doesn't the potter have power over the clay? like said, a Sovereign God depends on nothing....He gives life, and HE feeds his flock.

You think that if Mary said no to bearing the Son of God, that his coming could of been hindered...stopped...halted?

Who really knows? Mary's "yes" was huge...it's why she's honored and called blessed. The deep mystery of Mary's willingness to say yes is a powerful example of exactly how God needs our cooperation to some degree in his plan.

The world simply has no way of knowing the full implications of what might have happened should she have said no.

[Bobcat81]

Who's going to adjuticate God's law here on earth? Sorry, but I choose the laws of the United States and the State of Texas. Let God sort things out later on.;)

I'm refering the the wrongful judgement stemming from biases, prejudice, etc, that affect ones ability to make sound decisions on what is truth.

(Favoring a prosecutors case just because he/she knows the prosecutor, letting a criminal go free because he/she is friends with the defendants attorney and doesn't want to jeopardise that friendship) It happens quite frequently in courtrooms around as i'm sure you know.

People using others in position of power, and people in power taking advantage. Those that are, are failing drastically.

[Bobcat81]

Im not implying that your are a robot Firebird...im pointing out Scripture.

God's will can't be prevented....or hindered. FACT.

So logically, its absurd for you to assume that God's will won't be accomplished simply because a man doesn't want to comply. Doesn't the potter have power over the clay? like said, a Sovereign God depends on nothing....He gives life, and HE feeds his flock.

You think that if Mary said no to bearing the Son of God, that his coming could of been hindered...stopped...halted?

I was once told that God "Needs" protectors of the flock (i presume that meant Police, Firemen, EMT's..and even the Military) to defend against the purpetrators of our flesh. So in that sense.. I could see how God is in need.

[HUM398]

Who really knows? Mary's "yes" was huge...it's why she's honored and called blessed. The deep mystery of Mary's willingness to say yes is a powerful example of exactly how God needs our cooperation to some degree in his plan.

The world simply has no way of knowing the full implications of what might have happened should she have said no.

No. thats false.

God's will CAN'T be prevented from being fulfilled ...thats BIBLICAL.

The mere fact that you even answered that question the way you did...is astonishing.

Isaiah 46:9-11
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[HUM398]

I was once told that God "Needs" protectors of the flock (i presume that meant Police, Firemen, EMT's..and even the Military) to defend against the purpetrators of our flesh. So in that sense.. I could see how God is in need.

Unless it was the bible that told you such....then i wouldn't hold it in high regard.

[farmerfan]

poor Gary never got to see Parisl. oprah's d,am minge got in the wya.,

[Firebird]

No. thats false.

God's will CAN'T be prevented from being fulfilled ...thats BIBLICAL.

The mere fact that you even answered that question the way you did...is astonishing.

Isaiah 46:9-11
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Then I must assume that God wills us to sin and wills that some of us be damned. After all, if God's will can't be prevented from being fulfilled, then we must assume that everything that happens is His will. And thus he wills some of us to respond and some of us not too...

Never mind the fact that scripture tells us the exact opposite. God never forces anything...not because He can't but because He doesn't want to. He wants obedience and love freely given. Not coerced.

[t-long20]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

:notworthy Best post of this thread. Really puts things in perspective.

[HUM398]

Then I must assume that God wills us to sin and wills that some of us be damned. After all, if God's will can't be prevented from being fulfilled, then we must assume that everything that happens is His will. And thus he wills some of us to respond and some of us not too...

Never mind the fact that scripture tells us the exact opposite. God never forces anything...not because He can't but because He doesn't want to. He wants obedience and love freely given. Not coerced.

are you going to accuse God of something?

God is true to his word.

Are you arguing that God's sovereignty has stipulations? Just say it...God depends on man...i want to see those words across my screen if you truly believe that.

[HUM398]

:notworthy Best post of this thread. Really puts things in perspective.

Never mind that its completely scripturally unfounded..

[HebronHawk]

OKAY.
FOR THE LAST TIME
ANYTHING BEFORE 1776 DOES NOT COUNT
the original state charters mean NOTHING today.
they are reflections of the few original very pious Puritans who settled a tiny little settlement.
NOT the establishment of this country.
North Carolina, maybe.
United States, no.
How can you not understand this point?
i will consider your point of view when you quote a document written after 1787(ratification of the constitution, if you didnt know.)

Unless you are an advocate of Federalism, the state constitutions still matter even after the ratification of the US Constitution. I agree that state constitutions probably superceded their predecessors, the state charters.

[slorch]

See, I hold no grudge against people praying in school.
I am, in fact, against any resolution or law saying you may not pray in a school.
I will fight tooth and nail any law or resolution that either promotes or mandates said prayer.
you managed to sum up my points perfectly.
I understand your religion, and have no problem with people "presenting me message"s. I have a problem with people discriminating.

who's said anything here supporting discrimination?

BTW, I pray all of the time during work, or whatever I am working on. When I went to school i prayed all of time. Bottom line is, the removal of prayer is really not a big deal to me, because it is window dressing. I pray when I want to. personally, I have always struggled with Public Prayer in general and much prefer the "moment of silence." I feel it is more sincere and meaningful, but that is just MHO.

What I do not care for is my kid not being able to wear a "MercyMe" shirt because it has Christian symbols on it. I see shirts with other symbols on them all of the time at their school activities. I disagree with someone's kid wearing a shirt with designer logos all over it, and mine cannot wear a shirt proclaiming humility and praise for God.

Is it not lost on people that behavior and standards in our society in general have crumbled with your so-called preservation of your rights. It is my opinion that these people have won the battle, and helped us lose the war for common decency.

[slorch]

when i first started silipping from the Catholic faith, I did just that.
I attended Religious Education classes for a year and a half and spent a lot of time soul-searching as it were.
After a year and a half, i did in fact say no thanks and walked away.
some of my best friends are christians, some of my best friends are buddhist, some of my best friends are muslim, some of my best friends are hindu, some of my best friends are jewish, some of my best friends are atheist, and one of my friends is wiccan.
can you say the same? (rhetorical, so you dont have to answer)

after your first reply to me, I thought you were honestly interested in what i had to say.

I sincerely apologize for such a massive mistake of judgement.

The difference is that It is not my goal to diversify my portfolio of friends. my friends are who they are, without any symbolism or tokenism. It is obvious that the newfound religion of "Diversity and Inclusion" has influenced your own standards in that you also measure others by them. You call the roll of your aquaintences and their "faith" as if it somehow qualifies you as a guru on the subject. By reading your earlier posts and your problems with others' overzealous beliefs, I find your post rather hypocritical, to say the least.

[slorch]

You CAN pray in school, I don't know where conservatives seemed to hear that they can't. Every school in Texas does, prayer around the pole, etc. The law simply states that a GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE cannot lead students in prayer and students can not use GOVERNMENT EQUIPMENT, i.e. a school loudspeaker. It's not not that hard of a concept to grasp, I don't want a government employee choosing what or how I'm going to pray. If you want to pray you can, if you don't then you don't, everyone wins.

you are correct.

[mojotrain]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

I'm not real sure I know or could say what God needs. I kinda know what he expects of me. I think Jesus preached anywhere at anytime. I'm not real comfortable knowing that there is a person on this site who feels like they have a direct line of communication with God to relay a message such as that, telling all, what God needs. In fact I won't buy into that at all.

Feeding the poor? Name your ideal nation for doing this. The church I attend gace a one day offering of near 400,000 to do just that. Did you take part in feeding the poor this year? Under what banner? Can that be documented?

Healing the sick? Where do you go for your heath issues?

Don't tell me about the poor performance of this country unless you can tell me what your ideal country is. This has been ask of you time and again and I have not seen a answer. Please have the guts to Commit and declare once and for all your ideal country, the one you want the USA to imulate. If you can't or won't do that then you have no platform to speak from, You are a phony.

From what I see no other country has people trying to get into it. Can you speak tyo that?

No matter what you think the people of this country are not yet dumbed down enough to accept your messages. Some are, but at the present rate you are about 40 years worth of liberal leadership away from having people buy into your support for whatever/whoever it is you support. Then on the other hand if you get direct messages you need not support any except your own self. Would that be a fair to say?

I'll be back arond 3 pm I'm on my wat to church.

[Firebird]

are you going to accuse God of something?

God is true to his word.

Are you arguing that God's sovereignty has stipulations? Just say it...God depends on man...i want to see those words across my screen if you truly believe that.

God has restricted His sovereignty voluntarily in order to provide us with free will. He has lots of things He wants to do....but He wants them done in a certain way. He wanted Elijah and Elisha to revive the people and deliver His word to Ahab....but Elijah and Elisha had to participate and agree. He depended on them and they responded. He wanted Mary to act as His mother but Mary had a choice in the matter. She could have said no. We'll never know what God would have done Had she defied him.

God CAN or COULD impose his will on us. But He has voluntarily forgone his Divine Right in order to enjoy the reality of grace freely recieved and love freely given. That's the entire message of the Bible. God extending free grace to man for his redemption and the faithful getting the chance to actively participate in their own salvation and eventual sanctification. It's a process. It's God and us working together, not God simply operating on us.

You're failing to get the ultimate point...it's not that God has to depend on us to do His work. That would be abusurd and would indeed deny his absolute sovereignty. It's that He chooses to. He doesn't want to impose his will. He's given us the free will to defy him if we so choose.

[Firebird]

I'm not real sure I know or could say what God needs. I kinda know what he expects of me. I think Jesus preached anywhere at anytime. I'm not real comfortable knowing that there is a person on this site who feels like they have a direct line of communication with God to relay a message such as that, telling all, what God needs. In fact I won't buy into that at all.

Feeding the poor? Name your ideal nation for doing this. The church I attend gace a one day offering of near 400,000 to do just that. Did you take part in feeding the poor this year? Under what banner? Can that be documented?

Healing the sick? Where do you go for your heath issues?

Don't tell me about the poor performance of this country unless you can tell me what your ideal country is. This has been ask of you time and again and I have not seen a answer. Please have the guts to Commit and declare once and for all your ideal country, the one you want the USA to imulate. If you can't or won't do that then you have no platform to speak from, You are a phony.

From what I see no other country has people trying to get into it. Can you speak tyo that?

No matter what you think the people of this country are not yet dumbed down enough to accept your messages. Some are, but at the present rate you are about 40 years worth of liberal leadership away from having people buy into your support for whatever/whoever it is you support. Then on the other hand if you get direct messages you need not support any except your own self. Would that be a fair to say?

I'll be back arond 3 pm I'm on my wat to church.

I don't want the US to emulate any country, because all nations and peoples fall short. I want Christians within the United States to stop arguing over trivia such as displays of nativity scenes and the ten commandments and start thinking seriously about what God has specifically aksed us to do for Him while we're here on earth. The last time I checked, the Sermon on the Mount said precious little about fighting for a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn.

[t-long20]

He wanted Mary to act as His mother but Mary had a choice in the matter. She could have said no. We'll never know what God would have done Had she defied him.


Could it be possible that God knew Mary would say yes before he asked her? Hence the fact that he asked her specifically.

[Firebird]

Could it be possible that God knew Mary would say yes before he asked her? Hence the fact that he asked her specifically.

Divine foreknowledge is a mysterious thing that isn't really clearly spelled out for us. Like a lot of things about God, we just can't be sure. (For me the most challenging is the examples we have of God changing his mind.)

I'm sure that Mary could have said no. She instead said yes and for that reason all generations call her blessed for her unique and lasting role in God's plan and her own role in our salvation.

[okt0ber]

No. thats false.

God's will CAN'T be prevented from being fulfilled ...thats BIBLICAL.

The mere fact that you even answered that question the way you did...is astonishing.

Isaiah 46:9-11
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Ok, this is up for much debate. We spoke extensively about this when I was in one of my Theology classes at TLU.

Here's what it boils down to..... There are two sides to this story. The side that Hummer is taking, which is to say that God controls every aspect of what happens on earth, and we have no control over it. Everything that happens is God's will. As if he's playing a giant sized video game and we're at his mercy.

Or, there is the side that believes we are in control of our lives and he has laid out his 'guide' or 'instruction manual', if you will, for how we're supposed to live our lives. He helps us with major choices in life, guides us, but doesn't control us.

I really honestly haven't come to any type of conclusion as to what I believe. There are points to both sides on this. The ELCA Synod seems to believe the ladder is true. I don't know.

I will say this, though, you would think if we all were under God's will at all times, the earth would be a much more peaceful place.

[okt0ber]

I'm not real sure I know or could say what God needs. I kinda know what he expects of me. I think Jesus preached anywhere at anytime. I'm not real comfortable knowing that there is a person on this site who feels like they have a direct line of communication with God to relay a message such as that, telling all, what God needs. In fact I won't buy into that at all.

Feeding the poor? Name your ideal nation for doing this. The church I attend gace a one day offering of near 400,000 to do just that. Did you take part in feeding the poor this year? Under what banner? Can that be documented?

Healing the sick? Where do you go for your heath issues?

Don't tell me about the poor performance of this country unless you can tell me what your ideal country is. This has been ask of you time and again and I have not seen a answer. Please have the guts to Commit and declare once and for all your ideal country, the one you want the USA to imulate. If you can't or won't do that then you have no platform to speak from, You are a phony.

From what I see no other country has people trying to get into it. Can you speak tyo that?

No matter what you think the people of this country are not yet dumbed down enough to accept your messages. Some are, but at the present rate you are about 40 years worth of liberal leadership away from having people buy into your support for whatever/whoever it is you support. Then on the other hand if you get direct messages you need not support any except your own self. Would that be a fair to say?

I'll be back arond 3 pm I'm on my wat to church.

What he said is a matter of theory; meaning God doesn't have to have all his stuff in public. We're assuming God just wants us to believe in him and live a rightful life following his word.

If the word need bothers you, replace it with "wants us to"... it's the same message.

[mojotrain]

God has restricted His sovereignty voluntarily in order to provide us with free will. He has lots of things He wants to do....but He wants them done in a certain way. He wanted Elijah and Elisha to revive the people and deliver His word to Ahab....but Elijah and Elisha had to participate and agree. He depended on them and they responded. He wanted Mary to act as His mother but Mary had a choice in the matter. She could have said no. We'll never know what God would have done Had she defied him.

God CAN or COULD impose his will on us. But He has voluntarily forgone his Divine Right in order to enjoy the reality of grace freely recieved and love freely given. That's the entire message of the Bible. God extending free grace to man for his redemption and the faithful getting the chance to actively participate in their own salvation and eventual sanctification. It's a process. It's God and us working together, not God simply operating on us.

You're failing to get the ultimate point...it's not that God has to depend on us to do His work. That would be abusurd and would indeed deny his absolute sovereignty. It's that He chooses to. He doesn't want to impose his will. He's given us the free will to defy him if we so choose.

You did get away from relaying Gods "needs" to us and in your next to the last sentence you used the word "will". His "will" are the rules, no "need" involved at all. A part of his "will" I know. No one knows of his "will" until you offer him a clean canvass. His "will" will then be reaveled to you over time. His "will" will never be felt by you or known by you unless you go to him and tell him You are ready for his "will to be done". Your thought of God and me working together seems like you might think You or I same level as God. I rather think that I try to work for God. I just don't view it as a team effort. The rest of your post is a sermon and not one I think any Christain on this site would challenge all of. So your preaching to the Choir so to speak. If it's for the benefit of non believers you might be commended.

[ktCarl]

I have to wonder what some Christians want from the state. What are you hoping to accomplish? You live in the most religiously free society on earth. You can go to church, teach and pray at home, and as long as you aren't forcing 16 year olds into forced marriages the state will leave you alone. What else do you need.

I'm so tired of hearing about the undermining of our nation by forcing God out. Are you defending God? Does God need the United States of America? Does He need the state of Texas to legislate Christian prayer in school? God and Christianity don't need that defense. Are you forgetting who you are dealing with? The Alpha and Omega, the I AM?

God doesn't need His name to be mentioned at a Friday night football game. God needs people to pack His house on a Sunday morning of their own free will. God doesn't need a prayer over the intercom in your elementary school. God needs parents to kneel together with their children each night at home. God doesn't need to get a brief mention at high school graduation. God needs high school graduates to carry His message into their dormitories. God doesn't need His word taught in school. God needs parents, grandparents, mentors, and pastors to teach his word in homes and churches. God doesn't need a nativity scene in front of the courthouse. God needs us to carry the cross in our hearts. God doesn't need his commandments etched in stone inside a courtroom. God needs his commandments taught inside of a jail cell.

God survived Nero, Domition, Stalin, and Mao. God survived death itself. God will survive a secular U.S. government, but only if His servants stop fighting about His name in the courts and instead start feeding the poor, healing the sick, and setting the captive free. Christians in this country need to get some priorities straight.

I kind of get your drift on this subject and can understand why one would come to this conclusion but I think the better word in your opinions would be want(s) and not need(s).

We need a smiley with a halo above his head.

[mojotrain]

I don't want the US to emulate any country, because all nations and peoples fall short. I want Christians within the United States to stop arguing over trivia such as displays of nativity scenes and the ten commandments and start thinking seriously about what God has specifically aksed us to do for Him while we're here on earth. The last time I checked, the Sermon on the Mount said precious little about fighting for a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn.

Again, you duck a hard qusetion. I knew you would. It's something I have grown to count on. All Nations fall short of Gods will because all peoples fall short of Gods will. The most believing of Gods people fall short of Gods will. Thats a given, thats the way it will be until it's over.
What you want should carry no more weight than I saying, I want all non believers within the United States to stop arguing over trivia such as displays of nativity scenes and the Ten Commandments and start think seriously about what God has specifically asked (told) to do while we're here on earth. Another hard question, The word is freedom. Can you tell me it can't apply to me?
I'm sure they didn't have a nativity scene but I have read where Jesus who did not to hide his lamp under anything to keep from hurting feelings was beaten near to death then carried a Cross through public streets to a place where he was hung on that Cross in public view of believers as well as believers, to die nailed to the cross and then poked and prodded further until his final breath.

I believe that is what happened and I believe that a part of Gods "will" is for his followers to promote all of his word any and ever where. If non belivers can I can and will. God gave the right to make that decision. No way have I ever felt He intended for me to suppress his word because of location.

We can both be free but It will never be just one of us.

By your "no" answer again, on the hard questions, I see, that is your answer. I know but you should let you followers know what path you lead them down. As long as you play sneeky snake and choose to snipe and cut your good. Reveal the truth. Thats not in your make up is it?

[Dawg Fan]

Ok, this is up for much debate. We spoke extensively about this when I was in one of my Theology classes at TLU.

Here's what it boils down to..... There are two sides to this story. The side that Hummer is taking, which is to say that God controls every aspect of what happens on earth, and we have no control over it. Everything that happens is God's will. As if he's playing a giant sized video game and we're at his mercy.

Or, there is the side that believes we are in control of our lives and he has laid out his 'guide' or 'instruction manual', if you will, for how we're supposed to live our lives. He helps us with major choices in life, guides us, but doesn't control us.

I really honestly haven't come to any type of conclusion as to what I believe. There are points to both sides on this. The ELCA Synod seems to believe the ladder is true. I don't know.

I will say this, though, you would think if we all were under God's will at all times, the earth would be a much more peaceful place.

do you think your funny or cute calling him hummer? I think you are just a punk. Guys like you don't know how to debate anything at all. :rolleyes:

[okt0ber]

do you think your funny or cute calling him hummer? I think you are just a punk. Guys like you don't know how to debate anything at all. :rolleyes:

boy you really kept the subject going. :rolleyes:

I don't really care what you think of me, honestly.

[Dawg Fan]

boy you really kept the subject going. :rolleyes:

I don't really care what you think of me, honestly.

thats good because its not much if any at all:rolleyes:

[okt0ber]

thats good because its not much if any at all:rolleyes:

It's mutual.

[slorch]

ch-ch-chain...chain of fools

lockage cometh PDQ.

[TXFOOSBALL]

ch-ch-chain...chain of fools

lockage cometh PDQ.

Yea...why can't everyone just get along.:(

[rocketgrl94]

Yea...why can't everyone just get along.:(

cuz we are one big dysfunctional family it wouldnt be right if we all got along:D

[Firebird]

Again, you duck a hard qusetion. I knew you would. It's something I have grown to count on. All Nations fall short of Gods will because all peoples fall short of Gods will. The most believing of Gods people fall short of Gods will. Thats a given, thats the way it will be until it's over.
What you want should carry no more weight than I saying, I want all non believers within the United States to stop arguing over trivia such as displays of nativity scenes and the Ten Commandments and start think seriously about what God has specifically asked (told) to do while we're here on earth. Another hard question, The word is freedom. Can you tell me it can't apply to me?
I'm sure they didn't have a nativity scene but I have read where Jesus who did not to hide his lamp under anything to keep from hurting feelings was beaten near to death then carried a Cross through public streets to a place where he was hung on that Cross in public view of believers as well as believers, to die nailed to the cross and then poked and prodded further until his final breath.

I believe that is what happened and I believe that a part of Gods "will" is for his followers to promote all of his word any and ever where. If non belivers can I can and will. God gave the right to make that decision. No way have I ever felt He intended for me to suppress his word because of location.

We can both be free but It will never be just one of us.

By your "no" answer again, on the hard questions, I see, that is your answer. I know but you should let you followers know what path you lead them down. As long as you play sneeky snake and choose to snipe and cut your good. Reveal the truth. Thats not in your make up is it?

If it seems like I duck any of your hard questions, the first and foremost reason is because it is exceedingly difficult to extract any kind of coherent question from your posts. If you want to know my feelings on the U.S., government and God:

1. I believe that there is no nation on earth where a Christian can more freely practice his faith and live in accordance to his conscience. I happen to think the reason for this happy state of affairs is because not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, or anyone else is more free in this nation than in just about any nation on earth. I believe that the only way to maintain my own religious freedom is to ensure everyone else their own. I believe that the only way to ensure freedom of faith for all is for the state to adopt a position of strict neutrality. As soon as I recognize the state's right to promote or endorse my faith, I have de facto recongized it's right to promote or endorse a faith I disagree with. So I choose neither and will promote my faith by myself and with fellow believers.

2. I believe that this is a culturally Christian country with a secular Constitution and a secular government. I believe that Christians who are elected to office should fulfill their duties in accordance with their own convictions. Because I want to ensure fellow Christians that right, I believe that right must be extended to others. Each and every elected or non elected offical should be able to act in accordance with his own faith so long as he does not attempt to force everyone to act like him.

3. I believe that the surest way to get fake, sham Christians into the halls of power is to require that all who walk those halls proclaim publically the Christian faith. Rather than keeping out the frauds and hucksters, such a requirement will merely add another layer of fraud and hucksterism. In addition, I understand that the only way to ensure honest Christians access to the halls of power is to extend access to those halls to anyone who can win an honest election, regardless of faith. I believe that if Christians want to hold the highest offices, then they should win them in the free market of ideas and by exhibiting character and sound judgement-- not by passing a law requiring that office holders be Christian. I believe that if Christians are having trouble winning in the marketplace of free ideas, then Christians should reexamine how they are presenting their message OR how well they are actually acting on that message. They should not simply close the marketplace.

4. I hope that one day every American and every person in the world will acknowledge the lordship of Jesus Christ. I know that if that day ever comes, it will not come because of a government, American or otherwise. It will come from the actions of the Church, it will come from the actions of the people, it will come from the prayers of the saints, it will come from the grace of God, and it will come because those people responded of their own free will with no government coercion.

There are my beliefs. If I have not adequately answered your "hard questions" rest assured it is because I cannot identify them.

[slorch]

i believe his main question was if you are going to challenge america's charity, feeding the hungry, and so-forth, which country(ies) should we be emulating in fulfilling our duties?

i might be incorrect, but that was my gathering from his follow-up post.

[Firebird]

i believe his main question was if you are going to challenge america's charity, feeding the hungry, and so-forth, which country(ies) should we be emulating in fulfilling our duties?

i might be incorrect, but that was my gathering from his follow-up post.


I did not challenge America's charity anywhere in my post, so in that regard mojotrain is attacking a straw man.

I challenged American Christians' charity. I don't challenge it by comparison with anything other than the standard I see in the scripture. We may be doing it better than any other people on earth, but that isn't good enough. I will not be judged by the standard of "When I was hungry did you fedd me more than the other guys". It will be "When I was hungry, did you feed me", period. The last time I checked, there are still poor, there are still hungry here at home. There are still children suffering. There are still those who have not heard the good news. There is still plenty of "Kingdom Work" to do rather than worry about nativity scenes and requiring candidates to swear on the Bible.

I think very few of us, including me, re doing all we can. And as long as that is true, I will continue to point out that we, as Christians, have more important battles than those of politics.

[slorch]

I did not challenge America's charity anywhere in my post, so in that regard mojotrain is attacking a straw man.

I challenged American Christians' charity. I don't challenge it by comparison with anything other than the standard I see in the scripture. We may be doing it better than any other people on earth, but that isn't good enough. I will not be judged by the standard of "When I was hungry did you fedd me more than the other guys". It will be "When I was hungry, did you feed me", period. The last time I checked, there are still poor, there are still hungry here at home. There are still children suffering. There are still those who have not heard the good news. There is still plenty of "Kingdom Work" to do rather than worry about nativity scenes and requiring candidates to swear on the Bible.

I think very few of us, including me, re doing all we can. And as long as that is true, I will continue to point out that we, as Christians, have more important battles than those of politics.

this is the part where you choose to dwell on the negative. you did not answer the question of which country does it better than us. You also challenge us with being perfect, as in complete removal of hunger and/ or poverty. i would submit to you that i know of no person that is truly struggling in life being turned away from my church.
There's always going to be hunger in a physical sense. I would accept your challenge in the spiritual sense in that it is our task as Christians to minister to the masses even if it is one person at a time.

personally, I believe your assessment of American Christians is impossible to fulfill and unfair. I would ask you again, who does it better?

[Firebird]

this is the part where you choose to dwell on the negative. you did not answer the question of which country does it better than us. You also challenge us with being perfect, as in complete removal of hunger and/ or poverty. i would submit to you that i know of no person that is truly struggling in life being turned away from my church.
There's always going to be hunger in a physical sense. I would accept your challenge in the spiritual sense in that it is our task as Christians to minister to the masses even if it is one person at a time.

personally, I believe your assessment of American Christians is impossible to fulfill and unfair. I would ask you again, who does it better?

A. I have never compared one country to another so that question has no bearing on the situation. Why should I answer it? It is, as I said, a straw man.

B. You're right. Let's take a time out and pat ourselves on the back for being such great Christians. Let's ask "who's doing it better", conclude "no one" and then say "we're number one." That's what Jesus would tell us to do.:rolleyes:

You say that we are doing better than anyone else. I read the Gospels and realize that Israel was coming closer to fulfilling God's will than any other group of people on earth. Yet Jesus came to them and shook up their entire world. What other group of people recognized one God, what other people were trying to live by his commandments? Yet it was to them that Jesus came and said "Shape Up."

The entire gospel...all of it...is Jesus' challenge to the comfortable. To whom much has been given, much is expected. You ask me "who's doing it better." My response...you're asking the wrong question. Once I start assessing the world that way-- and I am always tempted to do so--I can see myself in the following passage. Guess who I am.

9] To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [10] "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

[13] "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'


Jesus doesn't like comfort and he doesn't like us to assess ourselves by comparison with others. When American Christians realize that we are the worst of all sinners, then and only then will we be back on the right track.

[DragonWatcher]

A. I have never compared one country to another so that question has no bearing on the situation. Why should I answer it? It is, as I said, a straw man.

B. You're right. Let's take a time out and pat ourselves on the back for being such great Christians. Let's ask "who's doing it better", conclude "no one" and then say "we're number one." That's what Jesus would tell us to do.:rolleyes:

You say that we are doing better than anyone else. I read the Gospels and realize that Israel was coming closer to fulfilling God's will than any other group of people on earth. Yet Jesus came to them and shook up their entire world. What other group of people recognized one God, what other people were trying to live by his commandments? Yet it was to them that Jesus came and said "Shape Up."

The entire gospel...all of it...is Jesus' challenge to the comfortable. To whom much has been given, much is expected. You ask me "who's doing it better." My response...you're asking the wrong question. Once I start assessing the world that way-- and I am always tempted to do so--I can see myself in the following passage. Guess who I am.




Jesus doesn't like comfort and he doesn't like us to assess ourselves by comparison with others. When American Christians realize that we are the worst of all sinners, then and only then will we be back on the right track.

That might be the most eloquent expression of my Christian beliefs I've ever heard. If your ever in Waco I'm gonna have to buy you a beer

[pied]

As for Christians referring to Christ as "X," here is a dictionary explanation that also repeats what I said earlier in the thread- the secular folks use the term "X"-mas as a way of removing His name and meaning from the holiday and our language. That reference is in no way Christian.-

X- letter of the alphabet. In English it has no peculiar sound, but stands for the combination ks as in fox, or gz as in exempt, or, initially, for the sound of z as inX, 24th xenia. In words from Greek, x transliterates the 14th Greek letter, xi, a letter perhaps quite unrelated to the Roman x in form. The formal Greek correspondent of x was chi, hence it is used in phonetics to represent a velar fricative like ch in loch. As the initial of the name Christ, X has become a symbol for it, e.g., in Xmas and in the monogram XP (chi rho). In Roman numerals X stands for 10.

I really don't understand your point. The passage you quoted here seems to prove the point, correct?

A simple search procduces thousands upon thousands of references supporting the fact that X has been used as a symbol or abbreviation for Christ for a LONG time.

Heck even Snopes gets in on the act:

Actually this usage is nearly as old as Christialnity iteslf, and its origins lie in the fact that the first letter in the greek word for 'Christ' is 'chi'and the Greek letter 'chi' is represented by a symbol similar to the letter 'X' in the modern Roman alphabet. Hence 'Xmas' is indeed perfectly legitimate abbreviation for the word 'Christmas' (jsut as 'Xian' is also sometimes used as an abbreviation of the word 'Christian').

None of this means that Christians (and others) aren't justified in feeling slighted when people write 'Xmas' rather than 'Christmas' but the point is is that the abbreviation was not created specifically for the point of demeaning Christ, Christians, Christianity, or Christmas - it's a very old artifact of a very different language.

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/xmasabbr.asp

Not a big deal, I can see why some get offended, but I think of it like when a$m guys call me a sip or get worked up and refer to UT as tu. No big deal.

[slorch]

A. I have never compared one country to another so that question has no bearing on the situation. Why should I answer it? It is, as I said, a straw man. Because you know the answer. Your challenge is not in vain, but your reasoning is flawed. It is little more than the liberal guilt trip we are sent on daily by the politicos and media.

B. You're right. Let's take a time out and pat ourselves on the back for being such great Christians. Let's ask "who's doing it better", conclude "no one" and then say "we're number one." That's what Jesus would tell us to do.:rolleyes:I said nothing about settling for what we have done, rather the simple illustration of what we ARE doing in relation to your assessment. if I make $100 for my work, and the guy down the street gets $5. i get the feeling You wouldn't feel I've done enough until I gave my $95 away to folks that didn't work at all. i'm sorry, but some of that IS mine, in the form of blessing from the Lord. i do tithe, I give of my time within the community, while also working 60-70 hours a week for my job. Oh yeah, i have a family that needs me too. i guess I should really stare myself down in the mirror and question my effort? I'm sick of hearing about all of the people I owe, when I give so much after busting my hump to sustain my own family's existence. I know this bounty, whether it is my wages or my ability to help others, is only possible through God. To your point, it is irresponsible to keep it all. contrary to your position, I don't feel the guilt or duty to sacrifice my own blessings beyond what the Word prescribes.

You say that we are doing better than anyone else. I read the Gospels and realize that Israel was coming closer to fulfilling God's will than any other group of people on earth. Yet Jesus came to them and shook up their entire world. What other group of people recognized one God, what other people were trying to live by his commandments? Yet it was to them that Jesus came and said "Shape Up."





The entire gospel...all of it...is Jesus' challenge to the comfortable. To whom much has been given, much is expected. You ask me "who's doing it better." My response...you're asking the wrong question. Once I start assessing the world that way-- and I am always tempted to do so--I can see myself in the following passage. Guess who I am.




Jesus doesn't like comfort and he doesn't like us to assess ourselves by comparison with others. i disagree, God does want us to be happy. People's level of comfort varies. i guess if you are saying we shouldn't rest on our laurels, i would agree, but God doesn't want to neccessarily be uncomfortable.you say we don't do enough because we are not perfect. Would you like to stop channelling my bosses at work?:D When American Christians realize that we are the worst of all sinners, then and only then will we be back on the right track.Worst of the sinners, really? i didn't know they were quantified now? i didn't know we hoarded oil AND God's grace...:rolleyes:

You are dancing harder than Emmitt on DWTS!
You won't answer because there is noone that does it better. maybe it is truly irrelevant what others are doing, but I know we do more.

I never said we should be satisfied, I simply illustrated what we have been doing. i think I have shared what I do and what i have been through in my life. i would say I am still in the middle of repaying my debt to society. i don't think of it as a zero-sum game. To your point, it is very difficult to measure "when will we be done." love and compassion for our fellow man should be ongoing.

I repeat, you seem to be deadset on perfection from us. perfection is impossible, yet we still strive to help as many as we can.

i cannot speak to the folks' situation like when I am working and pass people begging at intersections. I personally struggle with their dire situation while I am working to improve my own. One part of me wants to stop and ask them how they could ask for money from me when I am upholding responsibilies and they choose not to.I know that is not the right thing to do. i have invited them to our church.

I know every, and I do mean EVERY church that i have been a member of, actively supported the needy within the community with job search or simply food or utility money. i guess we should strive to have more missions than the ones we have in Latvia, Honduras, and India? what about the sister churches that we support in inner city Houston? I guess we should really feel guilty about our blessings.:rolleyes:

We are but one church in the body of Christ that does His work.

i mean this with all due respect, but by your reasoning, do you care to share what you are doing to give back?

[slorch]

I really don't understand your point. The passage you quoted here seems to prove the point, correct?

A simple search procduces thousands upon thousands of references supporting the fact that X has been used as a symbol or abbreviation for Christ for a LONG time.

Heck even Snopes gets in on the act:



http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/xmasabbr.asp

Not a big deal, I can see why some get offended, but I think of it like when a$m guys call me a sip or get worked up and refer to UT as tu. No big deal.


If we are the US of the Offended, I want my piece of the pie...:D

For me, it is all about context.

i would still challenge the board to find anything written where a born again Christian refers to Christ with an X. it is incongruent with the respect and honor His name deserves, at least IMO.

Like I said, He is the Alpha and the Omega, not the Chi.

[pied]

If we are the US of the Offended, I want my piece of the pie...:D

For me, it is all about context.

i would still challenge the board to find anything written where a born again Christian refers to Christ with an X. it is incongruent with the respect and honor His name deserves, at least IMO.

Like I said, He is the Alpha and the Omega, not the Chi.


slorch-I want to say thanks. I have understood the use for awhile, but kind of just accepted it. Your questions have lead me to find more answers. That's always a good thing in my opinion.

Here is some interesting stuff I have found.

Xmas is not of modern coinage. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551. Undoubtedly it was employed before that. Now 1551 is fifty years before the first English colonists came to America and sixty years earlier than the completion of the King James Version of the Bible! Moreover, at the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of Christian and Christianity.

You see, the X in Xmas did not originate as our English alphabet's X but as the symbol X in the Greek alphabet, called Chi, with a hard ch. The Greek Chi or X is the first letter in the Greek word Christos. Eric G. Gration claims that as early as the first century the X was used as Christ's initial. Certainly through church history we can trace this usage. In many manuscripts of the New Testament, X abbreviates Christos (Xristos). In ancient Christian art X and XR (Chi Ro—the first two letters in Greek of Christos abbreviate his name. We find that this practice entered the Old English language as early as AD 100. Moreover, Wycliff and other devout believers used X as an abbreviation for Christ. Were they trying to take Christ away and substitute an unknown quantity? The idea is preposterous.



Don't know about the born again status of these, but it would appear these are believers.

[slorch]

slorch-I want to say thanks. I have understood the use for awhile, but kind of just accepted it. Your questions have lead me to find more answers. That's always a good thing in my opinion.

Here is some interesting stuff I have found.




Don't know about the born again status of these, but it would appear these are believers.

i appreciate the research, and recognize the point you make.

i would still say the context in which it is used still matters, but i cannot dispute what you have presented either.

[pied]

i appreciate the research, and recognize the point you make.

i would still say the context in which it is used still matters, but i cannot dispute what you have presented either.

Undoubtedly. A bad analogy, but I will go back to it. Being called a sip or refering to UT as tu doesn't bother me a bit.

I get all kinds of irritated at the upside down horns. Go figure...

[mojotrain]

If it seems like I duck any of your hard questions, the first and foremost reason is because it is exceedingly difficult to extract any kind of coherent question from your posts. If you want to know my feelings on the U.S., government and God:

1. I believe that there is no nation on earth where a Christian can more freely practice his faith and live in accordance to his conscience. I happen to think the reason for this happy state of affairs is because not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, or anyone else is more free in this nation than in just about any nation on earth. I believe that the only way to maintain my own religious freedom is to ensure everyone else their own. I believe that the only way to ensure freedom of faith for all is for the state to adopt a position of strict neutrality. As soon as I recognize the state's right to promote or endorse my faith, I have de facto recongized it's right to promote or endorse a faith I disagree with. So I choose neither and will promote my faith by myself and with fellow believers.

2. I believe that this is a culturally Christian country with a secular Constitution and a secular government. I believe that Christians who are elected to office should fulfill their duties in accordance with their own convictions. Because I want to ensure fellow Christians that right, I believe that right must be extended to others. Each and every elected or non elected offical should be able to act in accordance with his own faith so long as he does not attempt to force everyone to act like him.

3. I believe that the surest way to get fake, sham Christians into the halls of power is to require that all who walk those halls proclaim publically the Christian faith. Rather than keeping out the frauds and hucksters, such a requirement will merely add another layer of fraud and hucksterism. In addition, I understand that the only way to ensure honest Christians access to the halls of power is to extend access to those halls to anyone who can win an honest election, regardless of faith. I believe that if Christians want to hold the highest offices, then they should win them in the free market of ideas and by exhibiting character and sound judgement-- not by passing a law requiring that office holders be Christian. I believe that if Christians are having trouble winning in the marketplace of free ideas, then Christians should reexamine how they are presenting their message OR how well they are actually acting on that message. They should not simply close the marketplace.

4. I hope that one day every American and every person in the world will acknowledge the lordship of Jesus Christ. I know that if that day ever comes, it will not come because of a government, American or otherwise. It will come from the actions of the Church, it will come from the actions of the people, it will come from the prayers of the saints, it will come from the grace of God, and it will come because those people responded of their own free will with no government coercion.

There are my beliefs. If I have not adequately answered your "hard questions" rest assured it is because I cannot identify them.

Ah ha, a far different post than your, I know what God needs post and I will relay those needs.

I know WHAT your feelings are on the US goverment. I know WHAT your feeling are on Religion.

Now for you, one question at a time. Concise on to a simlpe point and agian, if you are not specific and offer no answer. Then you have no mission in your post other than to snipe and trash the Nation you are sucking the blood out of.

THE ONLY QUESTION I ask at this time : What country do you want the USA to be like?

Don't try to baffle readers with baloney and quotes. A one word answer will suffice. Either commit, or or hide the light of that place from us, just as you would want us to hide the light of God and only let it shine in select places. I believe everything and every place is Gods. Jesus was not selective in where he promoted God. IMO if your going to be a Christian you can't make a list of places to promote or not promote God. I'll put these in a form of questions later. But for now, Give us a answer.

[slorch]

mojotrain, how good are you with a hammer?

[Mean DT]

youtube video about her new CULT (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA)

I never watch the broad so I just figured she was a great person with a good head on her shoulders by the things I've heard that she's done. However, I now realize she's a crazy :Censor: Not saying she's not a good person, because religion doesn't dictate that, but crap... I never thought I'd see this! The scary thing is that so many people are turning to this new belief and a lot of them are "Christians." It's sad to see someone with such an influence be so blind.

What exactly are they teaching?
things like:
- My mind is part of Gods, I am very holy
- My holiness is my salvation
- My salvation comes from me
- Let me remember that there is no sin
- Do not make the pathetic error of "clinging to the old rugged cross"
- The only message of the crucifixion is that you can overcome the cross

As you can see, all of these things are incredibly blasphemous and she is leading millions of people against God.Who gives:Censor:about Harpo.:D

[mojotrain]

mojotrain, how good are you with a hammer?

I seem to be whizzing up a tree.

[KT2000]

i appreciate the research, and recognize the point you make.

i would still say the context in which it is used still matters, but i cannot dispute what you have presented either.

After all the thread locks/deletions, here appears an example of what I've been getting at all this time in regard to debate on these boards.

It took me long enough to get it myself. The slorch, Bird, pied (probably leaving someone-s- out) exchanges are how debate is done.

[RedRage00]

After all the thread locks/deletions, here appears an example of what I've been getting at all this time in regard to debate on these boards.

It took me long enough to get it myself. The slorch, Bird, pied (probably leaving someone-s- out) exchanges are how debate is done.

Yes, I applaud their debating skills. :notworthy

[slorch]

I seem to be whizzing up a tree.

well I was going to ask you if you could nail jello to a wall?:D

[slorch]

After all the thread locks/deletions, here appears an example of what I've been getting at all this time in regard to debate on these boards.

It took me long enough to get it myself. The slorch, Bird, pied (probably leaving someone-s- out) exchanges are how debate is done.

i feel like it's week 10 and we finally correctly ran that option read that we've been working on since 2-a-days.:D

Good conversation is worthwhile. There are plenty of folks on here that are fun to talk to.

[ktCarl]

After all the thread locks/deletions, here appears an example of what I've been getting at all this time in regard to debate on these boards.

It took me long enough to get it myself. The slorch, Bird, pied (probably leaving someone-s- out) exchanges are how debate is done.

Shut up.















:D

[Hoodleboy80]

Yes, I applaud their debating skills. :notworthy

I'm with RR, it has been a very interesting debate, and I too applaud you all for keeping it civil when it is so easy for these things to turn south.

[farmerfan]

i feel like it's week 10 and we finally correctly ran that option read that we've been working on since 2-a-days.:D

Good conversation is worthwhile. There are plenty of folks on here that are fun to talk to.

Oh the beauty of discussion without Abilene's least favorite son :eek:;):D

[Firebird]

Ah ha, a far different post than your, I know what God needs post and I will relay those needs.

I know WHAT your feelings are on the US goverment. I know WHAT your feeling are on Religion.

Now for you, one question at a time. Concise on to a simlpe point and agian, if you are not specific and offer no answer. Then you have no mission in your post other than to snipe and trash the Nation you are sucking the blood out of.

THE ONLY QUESTION I ask at this time : What country do you want the USA to be like?
Don't try to baffle readers with baloney and quotes. A one word answer will suffice. Either commit, or or hide the light of that place from us, just as you would want us to hide the light of God and only let it shine in select places. I believe everything and every place is Gods. Jesus was not selective in where he promoted God. IMO if your going to be a Christian you can't make a list of places to promote or not promote God. I'll put these in a form of questions later. But for now, Give us a answer.


I want the USA to be the USA. I want the Church to be the Church. The USA=/=the Church. Simple as that.

[Firebird]

You are dancing harder than Emmitt on DWTS!
You won't answer because there is noone that does it better. maybe it is truly irrelevant what others are doing, but I know we do more.

I never said we should be satisfied, I simply illustrated what we have been doing. i think I have shared what I do and what i have been through in my life. i would say I am still in the middle of repaying my debt to society. i don't think of it as a zero-sum game. To your point, it is very difficult to measure "when will we be done." love and compassion for our fellow man should be ongoing.

I repeat, you seem to be deadset on perfection from us. perfection is impossible, yet we still strive to help as many as we can.

i cannot speak to the folks' situation like when I am working and pass people begging at intersections. I personally struggle with their dire situation while I am working to improve my own. One part of me wants to stop and ask them how they could ask for money from me when I am upholding responsibilies and they choose not to.I know that is not the right thing to do. i have invited them to our church.

I know every, and I do mean EVERY church that i have been a member of, actively supported the needy within the community with job search or simply food or utility money. i guess we should strive to have more missions than the ones we have in Latvia, Honduras, and India? what about the sister churches that we support in inner city Houston? I guess we should really feel guilty about our blessings.:rolleyes:

We are but one church in the body of Christ that does His work.

i mean this with all due respect, but by your reasoning, do you care to share what you are doing to give back?

You have certainly embraced the Gospel of Therapy. God wants us to be happy? Really? I see where God wants us to repent. I see where he wants us to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling." Rejoice in your salvation-- yes. Be comfortable with yourself and what you are doing--no. That's a critical difference. If you can read the Gospels and come away feeling good about yourself, then my answer is that you haven't been paying attention. That's not a "liberal guilt trip", that's God Incarnate bringing us face to face with the reality of our condition.

Are American Christians the worst of all sinners? Yes. So are Russian Christians, French, Mexicans, Chinese.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief

St. Paul said that. He didn't frame it in the past tense. He framed it in the present, when he was an apostle. Yet somehow those of us in the American church feel that we can say we are doing things "better" than other people? How does that work, pray tell? I say again, the minute I conclude that I or my church is doing things "better" than someone else, I have become the Pharisee.

You keep repeating that it's unfair to expect perfection from "us" as if I have not been using the word "we" throughout this whole exchange. I ask you, what do you think the imitation of Christ should entail?

You and mojotrains perpetual insistence on confusing the United States of America with the church only serves to further obstruficate the issue at hand. The United States is a nation. It's a great nation. But it is not the church and should not be held to the same standards as the church. I would note here that I have never criticized the U.S.

I have criticized the American church. Peering out on the world, I am forced to conclude that we come nowhere near the standard set for us by the God we worship. My standard for judgement is none other than his own words. I guess you have come up with a better standard, which is to compare us to folks elsewhere. As for sharing what "I'm doing"-- I could, but how arrogant would that be? As I've said before, I have carefully used the word "we" throughout this exchange. The judgement falls on all of us. The entire point is that until we can say with confidence that we are fulfilling the core admonitions of the gospel, maybe we should concetrate on those instead of things on the periphery.

[mojotrain]

I want the USA to be the USA. I want the Church to be the Church. The USA=/=the Church. Simple as that.

I just knew it! The Dairy Queen is the Dairy Queen but do I like Dairy Queen? Nope, I like Blue Bell and I like Blue Bell is a commitment. Your commitment is no commitment. My final conclusion of you would be, You are ashamed of your allegiance to both matters or you wish to hide them.

[Firebird]

I just knew it! The Dairy Queen is the Dairy Queen but do I like Dairy Queen? Nope, I like Blue Bell and I like Blue Bell is a commitment. Your commitment is no commitment. My final conclusion of you would be, You are ashamed of your allegiance to both matters or you wish to hide them.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I like the USA as it is and I remain committed to the ideals it was founded upon. I do think there are some areas where we can improve and make a "more perfect union" based on the principles outlined in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I love the Church but think that there are key areas where it fails in performing its core mission. I think that those areas should be given attention before we complain about our relations with the USG.

I do not think it is the responsibily of the USG to perfrom the mission that rightfully belongs to the Church, nor do I think the Church has the authority to perform the mission that rightfully belongs to the USA. The two institutions are separate and command separate loyalties and separate responsibilities. My responsibilites to the nation are not the same as those of the Church. It is you who is trying to make them one and the same.

[Dawg Fan]

You have certainly embraced the Gospel of Therapy. God wants us to be happy? Really? I see where God wants us to repent. I see where he wants us to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling." Rejoice in your salvation-- yes. Be comfortable with yourself and what you are doing--no. That's a critical difference. If you can read the Gospels and come away feeling good about yourself, then my answer is that you haven't been paying attention. That's not a "liberal guilt trip", that's God Incarnate bringing us face to face with the reality of our condition.

Are American Christians the worst of all sinners? Yes. So are Russian Christians, French, Mexicans, Chinese.



St. Paul said that. He didn't frame it in the past tense. He framed it in the present, when he was an apostle. Yet somehow those of us in the American church feel that we can say we are doing things "better" than other people? How does that work, pray tell? I say again, the minute I conclude that I or my church is doing things "better" than someone else, I have become the Pharisee.

You keep repeating that it's unfair to expect perfection from "us" as if I have not been using the word "we" throughout this whole exchange. I ask you, what do you think the imitation of Christ should entail?

You and mojotrains perpetual insistence on confusing the United States of America with the church only serves to further obstruficate the issue at hand. The United States is a nation. It's a great nation. But it is not the church and should not be held to the same standards as the church. I would note here that I have never criticized the U.S.

I have criticized the American church. Peering out on the world, I am forced to conclude that we come nowhere near the standard set for us by the God we worship. My standard for judgement is none other than his own words. I guess you have come up with a better standard, which is to compare us to folks elsewhere. As for sharing what "I'm doing"-- I could, but how arrogant would that be? As I've said before, I have carefully used the word "we" throughout this exchange. The judgement falls on all of us. The entire point is that until we can say with confidence that we are fulfilling the core admonitions of the gospel, maybe we should concetrate on those instead of things on the periphery.

Are American Christians the worst of all sinners? Yes. You have really gone off the deep end on this one. Are you saying only Christians can be sinners? I would think blowing up innocent women and children and teaching your kids how to be suicide bombers would be #1 but what do I know, you guys seem to think you can speak for God.

[Firebird]

Are American Christians the worst of all sinners? Yes. You have really gone off the deep end on this one. Are you saying only Christians can be sinners? I would think blowing up innocent women and children and teaching your kids how to be suicide bombers would be #1 but what do I know, you guys seem to think you can speak for God.

We are all, individually the worst of all sinners. Until I realize that I am no better than anyone else, I'm not really opening myself to God's grace. If that understanding is good enough for St. Paul, it is good enough for me.

The prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:

Oh Lord and Master of my life
do not give me a spirit
of sloth, despair, lust of power and idle talk.
But give rather a spirit
of chastity, humility, patience and love to your servant.
Yes, Lord and King,
grant me to see
my own transgressions
and not to judge my brother.
For blessed are You unto ages of ages, amen.

I think this needs to be said more often. BTW, excellent job of lifting a quote out of context....to leave off the end of that line where I state that we are the worst of all sinners, just like everyone else. Nice low blow.

[ktCarl]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I like the USA as it is and I remain committed to the ideals it was founded upon. I do think there are some areas where we can improve and make a "more perfect union" based on the principles outlined in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I love the Church but think that there are key areas where it fails in performing its core mission. I think that those areas should be given attention before we complain about our relations with the USG.

I do not think it is the responsibily of the USG to perfrom the mission that rightfully belongs to the Church, nor do I think the Church has the authority to perform the mission that rightfully belongs to the USA. The two institutions are separate and command separate loyalties and separate responsibilities. My responsibilites to the nation are not the same as those of the Church. It is you who is trying to make them one and the same.

I hope I'm not embarrassing myself by reading Firebird and the rest of you wrong but it does seem that the Bird's thinking is along the same lines as with the thinking of Thomas Jefferson.

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:545

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281


"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." From Thomas Jefferson on Politics and Government.

[TXFOOSBALL]

We are all, individually the worst of all sinners. Until I realize that I am no better than anyone else, I'm not really opening myself to God's grace. If that understanding is good enough for St. Paul, it is good enough for me.

The prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:



I think this needs to be said more often. BTW, excellent job of lifting a quote out of context....to leave off the end of that line where I state that we are the worst of all sinners, just like everyone else. Nice low blow.


I like that...

one of my favorites


Matthew 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[cajun]

I have criticized the American church. Peering out on the world, I am forced to conclude that we come nowhere near the standard set for us by the God we worship. My standard for judgement is none other than his own words..

Gee, I wonder if God has concluded the same thing?...

[Firebird]

Gee, I wonder if God has concluded the same thing?...

Maybe, but apparently, if Firebird suggest that we should concentrate on these core issues, it means he hates America and is "unfair".

[Dawg Fan]

We are all, individually the worst of all sinners. Until I realize that I am no better than anyone else, I'm not really opening myself to God's grace. If that understanding is good enough for St. Paul, it is good enough for me.

The prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:



I think this needs to be said more often. BTW, excellent job of lifting a quote out of context....to leave off the end of that line where I state that we are the worst of all sinners, just like everyone else. Nice low blow.

How is it out of context, you said yes right after American Christians? If you want to lump in all Christians then your wording is wrong. It is not a low blow at all. You speak for God on here or at least that is how I read your posts. I don't agree with many of the things you said but I let them pass. You are just as guilty at over reacting as you accuse others of.

[Dawg Fan]

We are all, individually the worst of all sinners. Until I realize that I am no better than anyone else, I'm not really opening myself to God's grace. If that understanding is good enough for St. Paul, it is good enough for me.

The prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:



I think this needs to be said more often. BTW, excellent job of lifting a quote out of context....to leave off the end of that line where I state that we are the worst of all sinners, just like everyone else. Nice low blow.

dp

[Firebird]

How is it out of context, you said yes right after American Christians? If you want to lump in all Christians then your wording is wrong. It is not a low blow at all. You speak for God on here or at least that is how I read your posts. I don't agree with many of the things you said but I let them pass. You are just as guilty at over reacting as you accuse others of.

My quote: Are American Christians the worst of all sinners? Yes. So are Russian Christians, French, Mexicans, Chinese.

I'm sorry you cannot understand the clear meaning of that statement. That is a problem with you, not my wording.

Speak for God? No, merely quoting what many on here believe is His Word.

[mojotrain]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I like the USA as it is and I remain committed to the ideals it was founded upon. I do think there are some areas where we can improve and make a "more perfect union" based on the principles outlined in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I love the Church but think that there are key areas where it fails in performing its core mission. I think that those areas should be given attention before we complain about our relations with the USG.

I do not think it is the responsibily of the USG to perfrom the mission that rightfully belongs to the Church, nor do I think the Church has the authority to perform the mission that rightfully belongs to the USA. The two institutions are separate and command separate loyalties and separate responsibilities. My responsibilites to the nation are not the same as those of the Church. It is you who is trying to make them one and the same.

They should not be one in the same. My side was not the side who inlisted the aid of the goverment to suppress religious items like the ten commandments from public view or where other religious symbols could be viewed. You side did. Your blowing smoke. Your ducking and running in that smoke.

What you think about religion, about where and when to shine your light, is only your opinion and you don't, nor will you ever be a judge of when a church has failed. You simply don't have that power in spite of the way you feel.

The USA is not perfect by all peoples standards but it's the only nation that people are trying to get into. Right? There has not been nor will there ever be a perfect nation. But the USA is the standard of yesterday, today and God willing, tommorrow. If you believe in the Bible you can take heed from what is written in it. Matthew 24:6 will be a good place for you to start but there are many, many more chapters and verses that would cover all of what you think. But you can't add to the Bible and you can't take away from it.

I stand firm in my religious freedoms and my right to express the same and that right, is given to me first by God and then is backed up by the rights the United States goverment.

This is the country where you have chosen to live. If you feel like you have made a mistake in choosing to live here then you should consider moving on to the phantom country that suits your needs. Really? You need to be happy.
I do understand your ideals about the goverment.
I don't understand your religion.
I do though have enough of your answers, on both, so no more questions from me and for that I'm sure your thankful. You have been exposed.