Cornerstone Loses to UIL in Court

[okt0ber]

No membership for Cornerstone....

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA040208.01A.cornerstone.392a85a.html

[SMC020]

No membership for Cornerstone....

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA040208.01A.cornerstone.392a85a.html

What goes around comes around. I personally don't like what Hagee stands for.

[DrEdward]

Just breaks my heart to read this. :rolleyes: Jesuit and Strake have behaved as expected of their reputation prior to entering the UIL. However, Cornerstone brings with it a history of not playing according to the rules and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that they would play differently in the UIL.

[chhspantherfan]

Just breaks my heart to read this. :rolleyes: Jesuit and Strake have behaved as expected of their reputation prior to entering the UIL. However, Cornerstone brings with it a history of not playing according to the rules and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that they would play differently in the UIL.

From the sound of it, they may not be able to even play in TAAPS

[DrEdward]

From the sound of it, they may not be able to even play in TAAPS

I suppose that might be the outcome, but then they would have no one to blame but themselves. Although I suppose their leadship might not see it that way. They will likely take another run at it through the legislature and probably file an appeal.

[Fleeman93]

I suppose that might be the outcome, but then they would have no one to blame but themselves. Although I suppose their leadship might not see it that way. They will likely take another run at it through the legislature and probably file an appeal.


Wonder what opened this door?

[Wagnerdad]

I suppose that might be the outcome, but then they would have no one to blame but themselves. Although I suppose their leadship might not see it that way. They will likely take another run at it through the legislature and probably file an appeal.

Don't know if this was a great desicion. How many of us know schools that recruit? I just wish the hypocrisy would cease. I wish they would allow private schools to compete with the larger schools. Just my opinion.

[DrEdward]

Don't know if this was a great desicion. How many of us know schools that recruit? I just wish the hypocrisy would cease. I wish they would allow private schools to compete with the larger schools. Just my opinion.

What hypocrisy would that be? Cornerstone has been caught on more than one occasion doing illegal stuff by their own association, not by the UIL. Why should we assume that they would do otherwise in the UIL?

[Pearland1]

Wonderful news!!!!!!! This is what happens when you don't play by the rules. Trying to created an Elite Basketball team with players from all over the world its not right.

[Wagnerdad]

What hypocrisy would that be? Cornerstone has been caught on more than one occasion doing illegal stuff by their own association, not by the UIL. Why should we assume that they would do otherwise in the UIL?

Just refferring to how some of the public schools do the same thing on a smaller level. I'm not taking up for Cornerstone by no means. It's just that I have a problem when kids from other districts go to schools in other districts!!

[pied]

Just breaks my heart to read this. :rolleyes: Jesuit and Strake have behaved as expected of their reputation prior to entering the UIL. However, Cornerstone brings with it a history of not playing according to the rules and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that they would play differently in the UIL.


Yep, I was against their admittance, from a precedent standpoint, but never figured those schools would become a football factory.

Still have my eyes on Argyle Liberty(sorry farmer), Clay Academy, and John Paul II(Plano). I can see a couple of others on the horizon as well. Those would include Prestonwood/Faith Christian.

As a parent who is now sending their kid to private school and don't have real plas to end that going into HS, I wonder how my opinion may change in the future.

[2smooth07]

Hagee is off his rocker...Cornerstone gives all other good private schools a bad name because they get lumped into that category of going to other schools and recruiting their kids...i wont to know why their is such a big rift between private schools and UIL...coaches got the same problem too...

[HUM398]

Hagee is off his rocker...Cornerstone gives all other good private schools a bad name because they get lumped into that category of going to other schools and recruiting their kids...i wont to know why their is such a big rift between private schools and UIL...coaches got the same problem too...

I rather the private schools just stay in TAAPS. A lot of things private schools can't be monitored. We already have our token private schools, none else are needed.

[Wagnerdad]

I rather the private schools just stay in TAAPS. A lot of things private schools can't be monitored. We already have our token private schools, none else are needed.

What about Gods Academy in Dallas, John Paul in Corpus? Those schools recruit! Gods Academy holds its classes in a Rec. Center. I'd rather they stop all the Hypocrisy and let the kids play against each other. Like they do up north and on the East Coast.

[2smooth07]

I'll say this strake and dallas jesuit arent the darlings you think they are either...Im from houston and i know personally that SJ used be bad about recruiting...Public school coaches talk bad about private schools because they some of them suck as coaches and dont use thier talent well then the kid transfers to a private school and wins state championships...remember i said SOME, its not all of em.

[KT2000]

I don't understand what you're referring to as hypocrisy, Wagnerdad.

I don't frown upon parents who send their kids to private school. They have a choice and right to do so.

The Pandora's Box you open with the public/private mix is the attendance zone. There's no real attendance zone for a private school. They are like mini-universities, and must actively recruit qualified students to sustain themselves.

Strake Jesuit here in the Houston area pulls students mainly from Houston ISD, Alief ISD and Katy ISD. That's an enormous general area. I don't know of any public schools with that kind of zoning allowance.

[t-long20]

What about Gods Academy in Dallas, John Paul in Corpus? Those schools recruit! Gods Academy holds its classes in a Rec. Center. I'd rather they stop all the Hypocrisy and let the kids play against each other. Like they do up north and on the East Coast.

You must be mistaken. You might as well allow AAU teams to participate against public schools as well. Do you understand what recruitment is, or why it holds an unfair advantage? By that post im sure that you don't

[t-long20]

Wonderful news!!!!!!! This is what happens when you don't play by the rules. Trying to created an Elite Basketball team with players from all over the world its not right.

Some people just don't understand. Private school not only recruit statewide and nationally, they recruit worldwide as well.

[Plano West Wolf]

Yep, I was against their admittance, from a precedent standpoint, but never figured those schools would become a football factory.

Still have my eyes on Argyle Liberty(sorry farmer), Clay Academy, and John Paul II(Plano). I can see a couple of others on the horizon as well. Those would include Prestonwood/Faith Christian.

As a parent who is now sending their kid to private school and don't have real plas to end that going into HS, I wonder how my opinion may change in the future.

If John Paull II is recruiting they are doing a terrible job. They have only won one varsity game in their span (which is only two years, but the competition probably isn't that tough). Check out some of the scores of their football games on hsgametime.com. They lost 83 - 0 to Bishop Dunne. Dunne could have pushed the game over 100 points easily, but they were kind. They didn't score in the fourth quarter at all.

[pied]

If John Paull II is recruiting they are doing a terrible job. They have only won one varsity game in their span (which is only two years, but the competition probably isn't that tough). Check out some of the scores of their football games on hsgametime.com. They lost 83 - 0 to Bishop Dunne. Dunne could have pushed the game over 100 points easily, but they were kind. They didn't score in the fourth quarter at all.


That's my point, and thought

[twcpfan1]

I don't understand what you're referring to as hypocrisy, Wagnerdad.

I don't frown upon parents who send their kids to private school. They have a choice and right to do so.

The Pandora's Box you open with the public/private mix is the attendance zone. There's no real attendance zone for a private school. They are like mini-universities, and must actively recruit qualified students to sustain themselves.

Strake Jesuit here in the Houston area pulls students mainly from Houston ISD, Alief ISD and Katy ISD. That's an enormous general area. I don't know of any public schools with that kind of zoning allowance.

Can't speak for WagnerDad, but what I think what he means is that in a lot of cases, the best athletes' families, by design, move to areas that have traditionally strong programs maybe in their child's freshman year. Programs like SLC and Katy do not need to recruit. The best talent just end up there year in year out, out of choice. It's not recruiting (technically) and it is perfectly legitimate. But ultimately, it has the same end result. Pretty sure that's what he was trying to get at.

I'm actually ok with letting the private schools in, as long as no phantom scholarships are handed to athletes. So they take kids in from out of state etc. No different than say a stud athlete from West Texas moving to Katy ISD his freshman year because his parents want him playing for the Tigers. Only difference is, Katy does not need to ask.

[Plano West Wolf]

That's my point, and thought

My point is, who would want to play for a team that gets their ***** kicked game in and game out, even if they were offered a scholarship? I know I wouldn't, especially when the team has scored less than 30 points in its existence and has allowed over 700.

[okt0ber]

WagnerDad, UIL doesn't have anything against private schools. Their rules state that if a private school isn't eligible for their program, they can join UIL. Cornerstone is eligible for TAPPS, so they can't get into UIL. Now, TAPPS doesn't want them because they break rules and get kicked out. TAPPS rules are much less strict about recruiting than UIL, so there is no way they'd be able to follow UIL's rules.

Also, UIL wants everyone on a fair and even playing field. Private schools recruit their students, so they can pick and choose who they want. Public schools have what they have. It's not fair to lump them all together, because that's not an even playing field.

[HUM398]

What about Gods Academy in Dallas, John Paul in Corpus? Those schools recruit! Gods Academy holds its classes in a Rec. Center. I'd rather they stop all the Hypocrisy and let the kids play against each other. Like they do up north and on the East Coast.

Why would you want to be like or do what Yankee's do....


You need to look no further then Louisiana to see what it has done to the public school football programs.

[LoneRocket]

Just breaks my heart to read this. :rolleyes: Jesuit and Strake have behaved as expected of their reputation prior to entering the UIL. However, Cornerstone brings with it a history of not playing according to the rules and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that they would play differently in the UIL.

As I mention before he might try to get the Texas Legislator to pass a law to get his school into the UIL, during the last session a bill made it out of the Texas Senate and died in the House. I hope that if the bill comes up again people on this board will contact their state officials to voice their opinions.

[whatabeast]

The biggest difference between the majority of private schools (including the ones in the UIL) and Cornerstone, is that Cornerstone has an administration that seems to want to put basketball (and i assume other spots), money, and pride over providing the best possible education to the kids who attend their school. The majority of the larger private schools, who would want to join the UIL, have administrations who care much more about the academic reputation of their school than their athletic reputation. As long as Cornerstone puts sports pride and money over the education and development of their students, they shouldn't be admitted to any league.

I don't see how the UIL can keep the private schools out forever, but i think that they, as a membership organization, are entitled to the right to create certain criteria which schools must meet in order to gain membership and remain members. I also think that the UIL needs to add (if its not already there) a requirement regarding schools who have been kicked out of TAPPS for breaking their rules. Private schools and public schools can play in the same league, but it must be done carefully.

[mojotrain]

The Midland private schools pull some excellent kids from Midland high and Lee. Thats Midland Christian and Midland Trinity.

IMO that if it is ever opened up for privates then I see no reason why Texas football would not follow in the steps of states like California and Ohio where Private schools seem to have a advantage. It looks like the door has already been opened.

Maybe some legal minds on this site may add to this but I think once the UIL allowed the few to enter that are now in place, a few lawsuits and a little time and all will be invited in.

[JCP1984]

I think there is a perception out there that only private schools recruit, when in reality some do and some don't. And, it is a fact that some public schools recruit and some don't. I would love for someone to research just how many of the outstanding football players that graduated from a school like SL Carroll over the years transferred to Southlake at some point between 8th and 12th grade. I have no idea if they were recruited by coaches, parents, or boosters. I have no idea if they came because they just wanted to be part of a great program. What bothers me is that if a student-athlete transfers to a private school, he WAS recruited. But, if a student-athlete transfers to a public school, he did it for reaosns that must be above board.

I don't know squat about Cornerstone Christian, so this has nothing to do with them. I do believe that any school (private or public) willing to follow all UIL rules governing athletics should be allowed to participate in the UIL, and they should be allowed to participate in the classification their enrollment puts them in. I don't think this would cause the worlsd to end. I'm sure some private schools would cheat and get penalized, just as some public schools cheat and get penalized now.

Dallas Jesuit has proven that one can be a private school and can compete in the UIL without disturbing all that makes the UIL great. I am sure there are other private schools like Dallas Jesuit out there...as sure as I am that there are some public schools not following the same rules Dallas Jesuit follows within the UIL.

[Fleeman93]

To me the difference between public and private when it comes to recruiting is that an athlete from a public school has to live in the attendance zone of the school he/she is attending. It is one thing for a representitive of a school to approach a player and a whole other thing for that player to talk his/her parents into moving into the attendance zone. The bottom line is that schools with less ethics than the jesuits will eventually get in and it will screw up what we have now.

[pied]

My point is, who would want to play for a team that gets their ***** kicked game in and game out, even if they were offered a scholarship? I know I wouldn't, especially when the team has scored less than 30 points in its existence and has allowed over 700.


Because I don't see that happeneing for too long. I said earlier that we are sending my kid(1st grader) to a private school. In looking around, I was amazed at how many schools there are and how many more people see this as a need not just alternative.

Go to the Yard and look at all the people fed up w/certain things. Home schooling and private schools, especially a the HS level seem to be growing. That is my perception not a fact that I have proven.

As far as JPII. They are putting a ton of $$ into this stadium. That leads me to believe the a$$ kicking days are limited. Show me a second year 600 student school putting up that stuff.

Who knows, I could be way off.

[rangerpride]

If John Paull II is recruiting they are doing a terrible job. They have only won one varsity game in their span (which is only two years, but the competition probably isn't that tough). Check out some of the scores of their football games on hsgametime.com. They lost 83 - 0 to Bishop Dunne. Dunne could have pushed the game over 100 points easily, but they were kind. They didn't score in the fourth quarter at all.

You are missing the point. You are looking at it from a football fans eyes. Think of all the BIG TIME private school names. What sport are they KNOWN for dominating in? Hint: it's not football...

Most of these private schools that recruit RARELY do it for football, because they know it takes a WHOLE TEAM of 22+ players to compete in football.

Basketball is a different animal. One great player can carry a team of below average guys on a long playoff run. Just look at the upsets every year in the NCAA tournament. Those teams usually rely on 1-2 great athletes and a bunch of guys no bigtime D1 school would give the time of day to, much less a scholaraship offer.

It is SO MUCH easier to build a basketball dynasty through recruiting than it is to build a football dynasty. You can recruit 3 guys and be set for the next 2-4 years. For football, 2-3 guys won't cut it.

It's also MUCH easier to get away with recruiting 2-3 guys a year for basketball than it is to recruit 15-20 guys for a football team.
When 1 or 2 good players move in, few notice, but if you have 15 new kids show up and they are all world class athletes, people start talking.

These schools, including Cornerstaone, aren't trying to join the UIL to dominate football...

[Wagnerdad]

I don't understand what you're referring to as hypocrisy, Wagnerdad.

I don't frown upon parents who send their kids to private school. They have a choice and right to do so.

The Pandora's Box you open with the public/private mix is the attendance zone. There's no real attendance zone for a private school. They are like mini-universities, and must actively recruit qualified students to sustain themselves.

Strake Jesuit here in the Houston area pulls students mainly from Houston ISD, Alief ISD and Katy ISD. That's an enormous general area. I don't know of any public schools with that kind of zoning allowance.

This has nothing to do with you! The hypocrisy I'm refferring to is that in some way, form or fashion public schools recruit as well. They're just not blatant about it. What is the attendance zone for the kids at Jack Yates? I know some players don't live in within the zone for their respective schools and some parents utilize cousins, grandparents addresses for the purpose of sending their child to a specifc school. All I'm saying is that recruiting goes on everywhere, at every level. Not to the extent it did at Cornerstone, but it happens. So lets be honest about it! When I was in San Antonio, my next door neighbor moved from Louisville, Ky so that his son could play football at Judson. Winning programs have a way of attracting players. And I've seen coaches utilize that to their advantage.

[Fleeman93]

This has nothing to do with you! The hypocrisy I'm refferring to is that in some way, form or fashion public schools recruit as well. They're just not blatant about it. What is the attendance zone for the kids at Jack Yates? I know some players don't live in within the zone for their respective schools and some parents utilize cousins, grandparents addresses for the purpose of sending their child to a specifc school. All I'm saying is that recruiting goes on everywhere, at every level. Not to the extent it did at Cornerstone, but it happens. So lets be honest about it! When I was in San Antonio, my next door neighbor moved from Louisville, Ky so that his son could play football at Judson. Winning programs have a way of attracting players. And I've seen coaches utilize that to their advantage.


If a player and his family MOVE THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY INTO AN ATTENDACE ZONE then how can you fault that? Also, in my opinion, if a representative from a school is caught trying to get players to move into the schools attendance zone then that school should be hung out to dry.

[KT2000]

What is the attendance zone for the kids at Jack Yates?

I know some players don't live in within the zone for their respective schools and some parents utilize cousins, grandparents addresses for the purpose of sending their child to a specifc school. All I'm saying is that recruiting goes on everywhere, at every level. Not to the extent it did at Cornerstone, but it happens. So lets be honest about it!

When I was in San Antonio, my next door neighbor moved from Louisville, Ky so that his son could play football at Judson. Winning programs have a way of attracting players. And I've seen coaches utilize that to their advantage.

1. HISD is a magnet district. There are designated attendance zones, however (don't agree with magnet policy either).

2. That is not recruiting in my book. If a kid/family moves on their own accord, that is not recruiting. Unless the school is actively courting the student athlete, it is not recruiting to me.

3. Again, that is not recruiting. They moved on their own accord. Certainly, winning programs and successful academic institutions will be attractive to moving families.

[rangerpride]

If a player and his family MOVE THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY INTO AN ATTENDACE ZONE then how can you fault that? Also, in my opinion, if a representative from a school is caught trying to get players to move into the schools attendance zone then that school should be hung out to dry.

SA Reagan had a similar situation in basketball a couple years ago. 2 SV basketball players "moved" from the SV attendance zone into the Reagan attendance zone after their sophomore years, coincedentally the year after Reagan made it to the Regional Finals. Both of them played on the same AAU team with some players from Reagan. One of the 2 guys from SV, legitimately had their family moved into Reagan's attendance zone, the other one was using an apartment address for his school mailing address while actually still living in the SV attendance zone. The parents were so adament about their son playing for a winning basketball team that they threw away $700-1000 a month on renting a vacant apartment, just so he could play at Reagan.

SV coaches, as well as other coaches from 26-5A found out about this and voted to protest his transfer. In a UIL meeting, it was decided the 2nd player with the apartment address must sit out his entire junior year.

AAU is POISON for public high school coaches, as it is ALSO used as a recruiting ground. Whether it be coaches coming to "watch" summer league games, or getting their players to "talk" a rival school's best players into "moving in" it all reeks of cheating. But that is another topic for another time...

[KT2000]

AAU is POISON for public high school coaches, as it is ALSO used as a recruiting ground. Whether it be coaches coming to "watch" summer league games, or getting their players to "talk" a rival school's best players into "moving in" it all reeks of cheating. But that is another topic for another time...

That's why basketball has serious issues. It's much easier to build a team in basketball because, of course, you don't need near as many players as you do on a football team. Just look at places like Oak Hill Academy. That school is in the middle of nowhere in SW Virginia. It's become a hoops factory. The entire east coast is dotted with Oak Hills.

[Fleeman93]

SA Reagan had a similar situation in basketball a couple years ago. 2 SV basketball players "moved" from the SV attendance zone into the Reagan attendance zone after their sophomore years, coincedentally the year after Reagan made it to the Regional Finals. Both of them played on the same AAU team with some players from Reagan. One of the 2 guys from SV, legitimately had their family moved into Reagan's attendance zone, the other one was using an apartment address for his school mailing address while actually still living in the SV attendance zone. The parents were so adament about their son playing for a winning basketball team that they threw away $700-1000 a month on renting a vacant apartment, just so he could play at Reagan.

SV coaches, as well as other coaches from 26-5A found out about this and voted to protest his transfer. In a UIL meeting, it was decided the 2nd player with the apartment address must sit out his entire junior year.

AAU is POISON for public high school coaches, as it is ALSO used as a recruiting ground. Whether it be coaches coming to "watch" summer league games, or getting their players to "talk" a rival school's best players into "moving in" it all reeks of cheating. But that is another topic for another time...

Sounds like the UIL handled that situation exactly the way they should have.

[GOBIGIKE#1]

I believe the recruiting issue between private and public schools is sufficient enough to not let the private schools in the UIL period. However, the primary reason I think the private schools should not participate is if the private students (and parents) do not want to go to school with the students attending public schools then I see no reason they should be allowed to compete in athletics with the public schools.

And, lets not say it is just a higher quality education issue, there are numerous segregating societal and economic reasons students are sent to private schools instead. NOT ALL MIND YOU, but I bet a majority have more reasons than just a better education!

GOBIGIKE#1
THE SWOOP IS DEFINITELY BACK!

[twcpfan1]

The prevailing argument for some of you is that programs like SLC and Katy must be allowed to stay strong. Because the rules are in place to sustain the dominance they already have. Yes it's not recruiting. But they have the lures already in place where they do not have to actively recruit. But let's be realistic. The support and financing has a lot to do with why these programs are dominant. So it still boils down to the money. I'd let the private schools in. If nothing else, to maybe upset the balance of power.

[twcpfan1]

If a player and his family MOVE THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY INTO AN ATTENDACE ZONE then how can you fault that? Also, in my opinion, if a representative from a school is caught trying to get players to move into the schools attendance zone then that school should be hung out to dry.

It's very easy to make that argument from your point of view since Katy is one of the attendance zones most sought after, given the dominance of their program.

[Wagnerdad]

1. HISD is a magnet district. There are designated attendance zones, however (don't agree with magnet policy either).

2. That is not recruiting in my book. If a kid/family moves on their own accord, that is not recruiting. Unless the school is actively courting the student athlete, it is not recruiting to me.

3. Again, that is not recruiting. They moved on their own accord. Certainly, winning programs and successful academic institutions will be attractive to moving families.

I'm not reffering to parents who legitimatly move with their parents. I'm reffering to incidents similar to the one that Rangerpride is talking about. So, is it now permissable for HISD to recruit kids for the sports program in a magnet system? This is the hypocrisy I'm reffering to!!

[pied]

And, lets not say it is just a higher quality education issue, there are numerous segregating societal and economic reasons students are sent to private schools instead. NOT ALL MIND YOU, but I bet a majority have more reasons than just a better education!


Interesting point of view.

[okt0ber]

This has nothing to do with you! The hypocrisy I'm refferring to is that in some way, form or fashion public schools recruit as well. They're just not blatant about it. What is the attendance zone for the kids at Jack Yates? I know some players don't live in within the zone for their respective schools and some parents utilize cousins, grandparents addresses for the purpose of sending their child to a specifc school. All I'm saying is that recruiting goes on everywhere, at every level. Not to the extent it did at Cornerstone, but it happens. So lets be honest about it! When I was in San Antonio, my next door neighbor moved from Louisville, Ky so that his son could play football at Judson. Winning programs have a way of attracting players. And I've seen coaches utilize that to their advantage.

Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

Recruiting = "To enroll or seek to enroll"

None of what you talked about fits that. When people are moving to an area on their own for the purpose of going to a school with a good athletic program is not recruiting. That's their own option, and unless the school contacted them first to go to said school, it's not recruiting. It's having a good program that draws people to it. Nothing wrong with that.

I doubt those kids from Mexico and other states said one day "I think I'm gonna go to Cornerstone for its good basketball program". Fat chance, you know good and well those kids were LURED by Cornerstone and that's COMPLETELY different than what public schools do.

[Wagnerdad]

Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

Recruiting = "To enroll or seek to enroll"

None of what you talked about fits that. When people are moving to an area on their own for the purpose of going to a school with a good athletic program is not recruiting. That's their own option, and unless the school contacted them first to go to said school, it's not recruiting. It's having a good program that draws people to it. Nothing wrong with that.

I doubt those kids from Mexico and other states said one day "I think I'm gonna go to Cornerstone for its good basketball program". Fat chance, you know good and well those kids were LURED by Cornerstone and that's COMPLETELY different than what public schools do.

Once again you misinterpeted what I said!!! I'm not reffering to families who legitimatlly move, but those who are recruited!! I said initially I'm not siding with cornerstone, but that most schools do it (recruit) in some form!! That's where my comment on hypocrisy came in!! And I know you're not suggesting that some public schools don't try to lure players?

[Fleeman93]

The prevailing argument for some of you is that programs like SLC and Katy must be allowed to stay strong. Because the rules are in place to sustain the dominance they already have. Yes it's not recruiting. But they have the lures already in place where they do not have to actively recruit. But let's be realistic. The support and financing has a lot to do with why these programs are dominant. So it still boils down to the money. I'd let the private schools in. If nothing else, to maybe upset the balance of power.


Have you looked around the country at the states that have privat and public mixed? Those states have a terrible and I mean abosolutley flat out awful system compared to what the UIL gives us as far as sports competition goes. If you mix public and private in TX sooner or later what we know will be gone. You may not care about that but there are alot more of us that do than those of you that don't.

[Fleeman93]

Once again you misinterpeted what I said!!! I'm not reffering to families who legitimatlly move, but those who are recruited!! I said initially I'm not siding with cornerstone, but that most schools do it (recruit) in some form!! That's where my comment on hypocrisy came in!! And I know you're not suggesting that some public schools don't try to lure players?


Give me three examples of this happening in the public school sector or are you just assuming it happens on such a regular basis that it is a statewide problem.

[pied]

Have you looked around the country at the states that have privat and public mixed? Those states have a terrible and I mean abosolutley flat out awful system compared to what the UIL gives us as far as sports competition goes. If you mix public and private in TX sooner or later what we know will be gone. You may not care about that but there are alot more of us that do than those of you that don't.

There are always problems, but Ohio seems to ahev a system that incorporates the two. From what I ahve seen in FL, it's not the end of the world.

[pied]

Give me three examples of this happening in the public school sector or are you just assuming it happens on such a regular basis that it is a statewide problem.

Permian-90
Burleson-95
Plano-96

[Wagnerdad]

Give me three examples of this happening in the public school sector or are you just assuming it happens on such a regular basis that it is a statewide problem.

I'm speaking from experience. When I got divorced and my son was in the 8th grade, I had 4 high school coaches contact me or a relative to ask where my son would be located. 1 of them suggested that a inexpensive house was located in his district. So is this recruiting? I have seen other situiations that I won't talk about, but I just feel they all do it to some extent.

[okt0ber]

I'm speaking from experience. When I got divorced and my son was in the 8th grade, I had 4 high school coaches contact me or a relative to ask where my son would be located. 1 of them suggested that a inexpensive house was located in his district. So is this recruiting? I have seen other situiations that I won't talk about, but I just feel they all do it to some extent.

Um, but you were planning on moving anyway. It's not like you were a settled family and they came from nowhere..... school districts always brag about who is better in this and that.

[twcpfan1]

Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

Recruiting = "To enroll or seek to enroll"

None of what you talked about fits that. When people are moving to an area on their own for the purpose of going to a school with a good athletic program is not recruiting. That's their own option, and unless the school contacted them first to go to said school, it's not recruiting. It's having a good program that draws people to it. Nothing wrong with that.

I doubt those kids from Mexico and other states said one day "I think I'm gonna go to Cornerstone for its good basketball program". Fat chance, you know good and well those kids were LURED by Cornerstone and that's COMPLETELY different than what public schools do.

The only difference is where the conversations take place (AD's office or parents' living room ) or whether it's an incoming or outgoing phonecall. But it's all the same conversation. Technically you are correct though. Even if the system that's currently in place tend to favor some schools more than others. I guess my point is, if we're not dealing with a level playing field to start with, why not just let the privates in.

[twcpfan1]

Have you looked around the country at the states that have privat and public mixed? Those states have a terrible and I mean abosolutley flat out awful system compared to what the UIL gives us as far as sports competition goes. If you mix public and private in TX sooner or later what we know will be gone. You may not care about that but there are alot more of us that do than those of you that don't.

Has it occurred to you that maybe it's not the public/private mix but rather the management or lack of it?

Again it's easy to defend the UIL from where you're standing since it clearly favors the school you support and a few others like it. Reference the last realignment.

[Fleeman93]

There are always problems, but Ohio seems to ahev a system that incorporates the two. From what I ahve seen in FL, it's not the end of the world.

So those system compare to what we have here in TX in the UIL?

[Fleeman93]

Permian-90
Burleson-95
Plano-96


Were any of these teams hit for wrong doings?

[Fleeman93]

I'm speaking from experience. When I got divorced and my son was in the 8th grade, I had 4 high school coaches contact me or a relative to ask where my son would be located. 1 of them suggested that a inexpensive house was located in his district. So is this recruiting? I have seen other situiations that I won't talk about, but I just feel they all do it to some extent.


Did you report the coaches that contacted you to the UIL?

[Fleeman93]

Has it occurred to you that maybe it's not the public/private mix but rather the management or lack of it?

Again it's easy to defend the UIL from where you're standing since it clearly favors the school you support and a few others like it. Reference the last realignment.


AS KT2000 said earlier you can not mix private and public because there are no attendance zones for privates. If you allow the privates in then you have the same problem everyone is talking about in that recruiting happens with publics now but with privates the family does not have to move into the attendance zone.

If privates and publics do end up under the UIL at some point then it will be with different sets of rules so why not have different sets of punishments for breaking the rules. For every rules violation a private school has they lose 5 years of playoff eligibility. I think that would be fair punishment for recruiting violations for private schools.

[t-long20]

This has nothing to do with you! The hypocrisy I'm refferring to is that in some way, form or fashion public schools recruit as well. They're just not blatant about it. What is the attendance zone for the kids at Jack Yates? I know some players don't live in within the zone for their respective schools and some parents utilize cousins, grandparents addresses for the purpose of sending their child to a specifc school. All I'm saying is that recruiting goes on everywhere, at every level. Not to the extent it did at Cornerstone, but it happens. So lets be honest about it! When I was in San Antonio, my next door neighbor moved from Louisville, Ky so that his son could play football at Judson. Winning programs have a way of attracting players. And I've seen coaches utilize that to their advantage.

Do you know the definition of recruiting?
Recruitment refers to the process of finding possible candidates for a job or function, usually undertaken by recruiters. ..

If a family wants to SELL THEIR HOUSE and MOVE into the attendance zone for the athletic program than that is there choice. In fact it is illegal to make an in-district transfer to another school for athletic purposes.

Some families move because another school has a better band that they want there children to be apart of, is that recruiting too? It is ILLEGAL for even a coach to tell an athlete where to go. You really think the UIL has control over who moves to what district for whatever reason? By your analogy JISD is breaking the rules and should face severe punishiment immediately

[t-long20]

Did you report the coaches that contacted you to the UIL?

Im quite sure he was flattered and didn't bother to.

[pied]

Were any of these teams hit for wrong doings?

All three were.

[pied]

So those system compare to what we have here in TX in the UIL?

I think they would definitely favor well in comparison to you previous statement:

Those states have a terrible and I mean abosolutley flat out awful system compared to what the UIL gives us as far as sports competition goes

[pied]

Do you know the definition of recruiting?


If a family wants to SELL THEIR HOUSE and MOVE into the attendance zone for the athletic program than that is there choice. In fact it is illegal to make an in-district transfer to another school for athletic purposes.

Some families move because another school has a better band that they want there children to be apart of, is that recruiting too? It is ILLEGAL for even a coach to tell an athlete where to go. You really think the UIL has control over who moves to what district for whatever reason? By your analogy JISD is breaking the rules and should face severe punishiment immediately

Ummmm, no it's not.

Eligibility for Athletic Contests
meet all the requirements above,

*are less than 19 years old on September 1 preceding the contest or have been granted eligibility based on a disability that delayed their education by at least one year,

*live with their parents inside the school district attendance zone their first year of attendance (see your school administrator for exceptions),

*have not moved or changed schools for athletic purposes,

http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/eligibility.html


There are plenty of kids that have had to sit out a year because it was determined they moved because of athletic purposes.

[The King]

Can't speak for WagnerDad, but what I think what he means is that in a lot of cases, the best athletes' families, by design, move to areas that have traditionally strong programs maybe in their child's freshman year. Programs like SLC and Katy do not need to recruit. The best talent just end up there year in year out, out of choice. It's not recruiting (technically) and it is perfectly legitimate. But ultimately, it has the same end result. Pretty sure that's what he was trying to get at.

I'm actually ok with letting the private schools in, as long as no phantom scholarships are handed to athletes. So they take kids in from out of state etc. No different than say a stud athlete from West Texas moving to Katy ISD his freshman year because his parents want him playing for the Tigers. Only difference is, Katy does not need to ask.

I moved to Katy from West Texas, just south of Odessa in the summer of 1992 for work reasons just before my 8th grade year. My parents bought a house in the Katy attendance zone, not because of football (nobody knew who Katy was yet), but because Katy had a rodeo arena behind the high school. Being from a small town they thought my sister and I would fit in better their.

In order to be a good program you have to consistantly win, and you must do that with what you have, and trust me Katy didn't have a whole lot when I got their. But a wise man once told me "Its not about what you don't have, its about taking what you do have and making it work" Katy has consistnanly done that very well. Regardless of what they had or didn't

[twcpfan1]

AS KT2000 said earlier you can not mix private and public because there are no attendance zones for privates. If you allow the privates in then you have the same problem everyone is talking about in that recruiting happens with publics now but with privates the family does not have to move into the attendance zone.

If privates and publics do end up under the UIL at some point then it will be with different sets of rules so why not have different sets of punishments for breaking the rules. For every rules violation a private school has they lose 5 years of playoff eligibility. I think that would be fair punishment for recruiting violations for private schools.

I might be wrong, but doesn't the UIL prohibit transfers for athletic reasons? So if a kid transfers to an attendance zone so he could play football for a particular school, what does it matter if he takes his parents with him? It still defeats the purpose of having such a rule. You guys seem to think that it is all above board. Just because it can't be proven, doesn't make it right or fair.

[Fleeman93]

All three were.


So justice was served for breaking the rules. What more can you ask for?

[PantherFan2002]

I agree with the UIL on this decision for the same reason at kt. Private schools have no boundary lines for where they can pull students from. It makes recruiting very easy.

And for the arguement that public schools actively recruit. Here's my own story to show that that rarely happens. I moved from Chicago to Lufkin at the end of my sophmore year. I moved to live with my dad instead of my mom. It had nothing to do with football nor anything to do with lufkin ISD for that matter. I set up a meeting with the coach that summer to let him know that i was going to play and to introduce myself(at lufkin the coach has to enroll you in the "class" for scheduling perposes) However, I was placed on the JV squad my junior year before i ever stepped foot on a practice field or the weight room. It had nothing to do with talent level. If you move districts be it out of state or in state you CANNOT PLAY ON THE VARSITY LEVEL unless you can prove without a dought to the UIL that you didnt transfer for athletic purposes. Most coaches will take this route. Oh and by the way i moved to Lufkin the summer of 2001. I was one of 3 Juniors that didnt get a ring that year when we won state. UIL rules are in place for a reason. I accepted that when i went through it. To allow Private schools into the UIL who dont strictly follow those rules will completely deteriorate the level of competition that makes Texas High School Football what it is. Sorry about the long post.

[rangerpride]

I might be wrong, but doesn't the UIL prohibit transfers for athletic reasons? So if a kid transfers to an attendance zone so he could play football for a particular school, what does it matter if he takes his parents with him? It still defeats the purpose of having such a rule. You guys seem to think that it is all above board. Just because it can't be proven, doesn't make it right or fair.

That's exactly how some people see it though. It is very hard to prove that someone transferred for athletic reasons, therefore that makes it "okay" in the eyes of the fans of that school.

All the parents have to do is find some program or class at the new school that wasn't offered at the old school and enroll their kid in that class to cover for the fact that the real reason they moved was for athletic reasons.

Then it becomes a simple case of innocent until proven guilty. I totally agree with you. Either CLOSELY investigate theses transfers or get rid of "no transfer for athletic purposes" rule ENTIRELY if it has no teeth anyway.

[t-long20]

Ummmm, no it's not.



http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/eligibility.html


There are plenty of kids that have had to sit out a year because it was determined they moved because of athletic purposes.

Please tell me how do they determine that. Wagnerdad just stated himself that his neighbor did it.

Im sorry but this happens all the time and only an idiot would get caught for something like this. You really think that line has stopped people from moving? Please don't tell me your that gullible are you?

[t-long20]

That's exactly how some people see it though. It is very hard to prove that someone transferred for athletic reasons, therefore that makes it "okay" in the eyes of the fans of that school.

All the parents have to do is find some program or class at the new school that wasn't offered at the old school and enroll their kid in that class to cover for the fact that the real reason they moved was for athletic reasons.

Then it becomes a simple case of innocent until proven guilty. I totally agree with you. Either CLOSELY investigate theses transfers or get rid of "no transfer for athletic purposes" rule ENTIRELY if it has no teeth anyway.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Every year there are probably thousands of people who move of change schools. Did the UIL determine there eligibility status as well?

[Plano West Wolf]

Because I don't see that happeneing for too long. I said earlier that we are sending my kid(1st grader) to a private school. In looking around, I was amazed at how many schools there are and how many more people see this as a need not just alternative.

Go to the Yard and look at all the people fed up w/certain things. Home schooling and private schools, especially a the HS level seem to be growing. That is my perception not a fact that I have proven.

As far as JPII. They are putting a ton of $$ into this stadium. That leads me to believe the a$$ kicking days are limited. Show me a second year 600 student school putting up that stuff.

Who knows, I could be way off.

Perhaps that could be a sign of things to come. Alot of people who go to that school are very, very, very wealthy. I know alot about JPII because I know people who go there. Their football program is going nowhere. The original coach got run out of the school and the athletic director's son (who I hear can't coach if his life depended on it) got the job. The school is in a big, big mess in their athletic department and the school itself is in heavy debt due to that they have less than half the kids they expected to have at this point.

and the stadium is being funded by boosters. I believe one of the guys who is doing alot of the donating owns a chain of BMW dealerships. So I guess the boosters could recruit, but, eh, who really knows?

[Plano West Wolf]

You are missing the point. You are looking at it from a football fans eyes. Think of all the BIG TIME private school names. What sport are they KNOWN for dominating in? Hint: it's not football...

Most of these private schools that recruit RARELY do it for football, because they know it takes a WHOLE TEAM of 22+ players to compete in football.

Basketball is a different animal. One great player can carry a team of below average guys on a long playoff run. Just look at the upsets every year in the NCAA tournament. Those teams usually rely on 1-2 great athletes and a bunch of guys no bigtime D1 school would give the time of day to, much less a scholaraship offer.

It is SO MUCH easier to build a basketball dynasty through recruiting than it is to build a football dynasty. You can recruit 3 guys and be set for the next 2-4 years. For football, 2-3 guys won't cut it.

It's also MUCH easier to get away with recruiting 2-3 guys a year for basketball than it is to recruit 15-20 guys for a football team.
When 1 or 2 good players move in, few notice, but if you have 15 new kids show up and they are all world class athletes, people start talking.

These schools, including Cornerstaone, aren't trying to join the UIL to dominate football...

I see your point about basketball, as most of the nationally ranked teams are private. Also, look at the national football rankings. I don't have any set of statistics on front of me, but I'd feel confident saying more than 50% of those schools are private too. It is harder to recruit in football than basketball, you are right, but schools DO build football dynasties from recruiting.

I also agree with you about it being very hard to do and that it is highly unlikely any private schools will build football dynasties in Texas, but the UIL is just being safe and not giving it a chance to happen.

[RangerFan]

If a private school is ranked nationally in football, they must recruit.
If a public school does well in football nationally, they must have hard-working kids and great coaches.

A public school funds a new stadium complete with a fancy press box and jumbo tron using bonds & tax payers (public and private parents) money.
A private school builds a new stadium using money they raise on their own.

There are rich parents at Plano West and a JP II. There are 5A football programs that stink in football, just like JP II.

There have been many kids transfer to SL Carroll over the years, and quite a few were standout football players. No one questions whether or not booster folks or coaches contacted these kids' parents to see if they would like to come to SL Carroll. Yet, neighboring coaches say it happened. They don't report it because there is lots of stuff going on in the UIL that goes unreported.

There have been several Jesuit football players who have been contacted by public school coaches and told they will have a better chance to be recruited by colleges if they transfer. This happened before Jesuit was in the UIL, so there was no one to report this to. But, it did happen, and I'm sure it still does.

Many parents send their kids to a private school because they feel it is the best learning environment or the best school for them. Is that wrong? For my children, I could move to a nicer suburb and send them to a suburban public school or pay the tuition Jesuit costs and live where I live. I choose a great school academically, a school that offers a strong religious and spiritual experience, and a school that tries to be good and competitive in all sports. Jesuit's hockey team is #1 in the area right now. Jesuit's soccer team is, too. Jesuit's basketball and football teams made the playoffs this season. Jesuit's rugby team is undefeated. Their crew team is awesome. I could go on and on.

And, no one was recruited for sports and no one gets an athletic scholarship. Jesuit's top football players this past season are going to Georgetown University, Holy Cross College, and Johns Hopkins University. These are very difficult schools to get into, and none of them offer athletic scholarships in football.

Privates and publics can co-exist in the same league. If a school cheats, hopefully they governing powers will penalize them.

[BDB]

If a private school is ranked nationally in football, they must recruit.
If a public school does well in football nationally, they must have hard-working kids and great coaches.

A public school funds a new stadium complete with a fancy press box and jumbo tron using bonds & tax payers (public and private parents) money.
A private school builds a new stadium using money they raise on their own.

There are rich parents at Plano West and a JP II. There are 5A football programs that stink in football, just like JP II.

There have been many kids transfer to SL Carroll over the years, and quite a few were standout football players. No one questions whether or not booster folks or coaches contacted these kids' parents to see if they would like to come to SL Carroll. Yet, neighboring coaches say it happened. They don't report it because there is lots of stuff going on in the UIL that goes unreported.

There have been several Jesuit football players who have been contacted by public school coaches and told they will have a better chance to be recruited by colleges if they transfer. This happened before Jesuit was in the UIL, so there was no one to report this to. But, it did happen, and I'm sure it still does.

Many parents send their kids to a private school because they feel it is the best learning environment or the best school for them. Is that wrong? For my children, I could move to a nicer suburb and send them to a suburban public school or pay the tuition Jesuit costs and live where I live. I choose a great school academically, a school that offers a strong religious and spiritual experience, and a school that tries to be good and competitive in all sports. Jesuit's hockey team is #1 in the area right now. Jesuit's soccer team is, too. Jesuit's basketball and football teams made the playoffs this season. Jesuit's rugby team is undefeated. Their crew team is awesome. I could go on and on.

And, no one was recruited for sports and no one gets an athletic scholarship. Jesuit's top football players this past season are going to Georgetown University, Holy Cross College, and Johns Hopkins University. These are very difficult schools to get into, and none of them offer athletic scholarships in football.

Privates and publics can co-exist in the same league. If a school cheats, hopefully they governing powers will penalize them.



you're living in a perfect world, look at california and who their top teams are....hell, even ohio and penn. the private will always take over the public for the simple fact that they can do what they need to do to get the best kids where they want them.

keeping them seperated is what keeps football at it's best in texas. if cornerstone wants to be the best team in the state, then schedule katy/ET/SV and play their regular schedule. but dont jack up the current system just because you have the opprotunity to send your children to a private school.

[Plano West Wolf]

If a private school is ranked nationally in football, they must recruit.
If a public school does well in football nationally, they must have hard-working kids and great coaches.


Ironically, that is true.

[BDB]

Ironically, that is true.

i don think he saw the irony in his own post.

[Tigerjag]

As I mention before he might try to get the Texas Legislator to pass a law to get his school into the UIL, during the last session a bill made it out of the Texas Senate and died in the House. I hope that if the bill comes up again people on this board will contact their state officials to voice their opinions.


Actually, we need to contact our legislators now to let them know to not even try this bill again. Dan Patrick sponsored the bill last time. He needs to get an earful from all of us against this.

[twcpfan1]

This thread feels like UIL Apartheid. WTF is the problem? It's not as if the UIL and public schools do everything on the UP and UP. And yet everybody here is so quick to assume that the privates will cheat. Keep in mind that there are kids being deprived of the opportunity to compete with the best all because their parents choose to put them in a better academic environment. Isn't it still the primary reason why we send our kids off to school everyday? Their families pay school taxes for a service they don't even use. Extra spending money for the ISD's that ultimately benefits your kids. That's a nice freakin stadium over there at Cypress. What was the justification in building one that elaborate? You could have built 2 stadiums with the money they spent for that baby. And yet nobody questions it.

Let's really call it what it is. A lot of you do not want to upset the imbalance of power that currently exists. Guess what. The 'prep schools' are already in the mix. They may technically be state schools, but the money that is pumped into these programs give them the same unfair advantage you people are so wary of.

[twcpfan1]

Ironically, that is true.

That may be. It's just funny that the elite players and coaches always end up at the well funded programs. In the end, it's still about the money.

[odessapermian.com]

Permian-90
Burleson-95
Plano-96

In 1990 Permian was DQ'd from playoff contention for conducting what were ruled to be early organized workouts. There were players that voluntarily got together over the summer to do what amounts to 7 on 7 type stuff. A coach from Odessa High taped them and sent the tape to the UIL. UIL ruled they were having organized practices, and disqualified them from the 1990 state playoffs.

Can't tell you about the other examples you cited.

[slorch]

Has it occurred to you that maybe it's not the public/private mix but rather the management or lack of it?

Again it's easy to defend the UIL from where you're standing since it clearly favors the school you support and a few others like it. Reference the last realignment.

before we bought our house, two years ago, we had moved 4 times in 5 years. Every time we relocated, we researched the schools where we were moving to. Our kids are not of athletic age, but school administrators returned our calls when we sought information. Once again, there is no athletic impact, yet we were talking to schools about why we should pick that area. they were giving us information. is that recruiting a 5th grader?

I would say I agree with the current rules as far as UIL maintaining the level of competition in as fair of a set-up as possible. Did UIL change some vital rule that helped Southlake make the jump from 3A to 5A in 10 years and maintain their level of excellence? I'd say no, they didn't. If it is all about money and programs, then I guess none of the new 5A schools have a fighting chance, but alas, our very own College Park has made the football playoffs in its first 2 years of varsity ball. is it just football? You know differently with both basketball programs having great seasons this year. Converse Wagner has already been successful. These schools just happened to be dirivatives of already strong traditions and parental support. That, IMO, is much more important than just throwing money at a program and expecting the wins to pile up.

I do not want Texas to become like the other states and have 3 or 4 dominant private schools that hog up all of the talent. Yes, there are dominant programs, but I chalk that up to coaching and community support as much as anything else. It is not a surprise to me that when a longtime coach leaves, there is sometimes a big drop in the success level. Stephenville, after the Briles promotion to Tech, definitely comes to mind. They have come back to a high level of success because their community(parents) support of the program keeps it at a high level, but the coaching change also changed the results they were used to.

I don't want a level playing field for the privates, because it is impossible to provide from the UIL's perspective and the participants. I think the current system is about as fair as it can be. that is why, at the beginning of each season, there are about 20-25 teams that think they have a realistic chance at a state title. Not just 3 or 4.

[slorch]

Has it occurred to you that maybe it's not the public/private mix but rather the management or lack of it?

Again it's easy to defend the UIL from where you're standing since it clearly favors the school you support and a few others like it. Reference the last realignment.

dp

[RangerFan]

You see irony, while I see a double-standard. Although I am quite certain some private schools cheat, recruit, and offer special inducements to athletes; I am also certain some public schools do the same things. And, I am sure some private schools ranked nationally recruit, just as I am sure some public schools do. But, not all good private school programs cheat. Dallas Jesuit has made the UIL playoffs 3 out of 4 years since joining the UIL. They have followed all UIL rules perhaps better than any other UIL school. And, every single one of their football players is asked to do more in and outside of the classroom. Just because they are able to draw kids from outside an attendance zone, I didn't see an athletic advantage when they played schools like Trinity, Desoto, Cedar Hill, and SGP. In fact, I saw a severe disadvantage.

[twcpfan1]

dp

College Park's athletic and Fine Arts programs are very well funded by their respective boosters. Pretty sure it had someting to do with the early success. Not to mention the quality of coaches and directors who run these programs.

Community and financial support usually go hand in hand.

[slorch]

College Park's athletic and Fine Arts programs are very well funded by their respective boosters. Pretty sure it had someting to do with the early success. Not to mention the quality of coaches and directors who run these programs.

Community and financial support usually go hand in hand.

My point is that there is opportunity for every school to realistically be competitive. Instead of being like an expansion team ala tampa Bay buccaneers or Charlotte Bobcats, the Cavaliers instantly had a chance. TWHS didn't have an unfair advantage to keep all of the talent. If the rules were changed, new schools would be screwed right out of the gate.

[twcpfan1]

My point is that there is opportunity for every school to realistically be competitive. Instead of being like an expansion team ala tampa Bay buccaneers or Charlotte Bobcats, the Cavaliers instantly had a chance. TWHS didn't have an unfair advantage to keep all of the talent. If the rules were changed, new schools would be screwed right out of the gate.

Actually they relaxed the attendance zone restrictions when CP opened. TWHS students were given a choice. Even the ones who ended up in the CP zone got to stay. Pretty sure this fall will be the 1st year the restrictions will be enforced.

[Wagnerdad]

Im quite sure he was flattered and didn't bother to.

Hell, I was going through a divorce! Since my son stayed with his mom, he went to the school in that district! End of story! What am I to report? A coach found me a house? Bottom line for me. Public schools recruit as well. And I'm not talking about a job! Ohio has a great system that mixes public and private schools. And what's wrong with creating schools that specilize in basketball? Nobody's trying to take control of football from the UIL. In Texas, if a kid really wants to pursue a sport other than football, he will face numerous obstacles from a public school. I've seen this happen over and over. So if a kid isn't interested in football, I say let him go to a private institution.

[t-long20]

Bottom line for me. Public schools recruit as well.

Going to a school for athletic purposes is not recruiting simply because those coaches had NOTHING to do with that decision.And it is illegal for them to tell an athlete where to go or contact an athlete. Hell they probably didn't even know about the athlete before he attended school. If public schools recruit im sure there would be far more championships at other high schools.

Now on the other hand Private schools DO recruit and they recruit worldwide. Cornerstone has became the "thug" private school if you will. They got kicked out of there own league TAPPS for breaking the rules numerous times and now they want to destroy the very foundation of the UIL by allowing privates to join.

If you want open up pandoras box than go right ahead. But when you see your team get completely pummeled in every sport than don't blame me. And when you go to a basketball game and you see a 7'ft. international center on the floor playing against wagner don't get mad. When you go to a football game and you see an all-start team of athletes on the field and wagner losing 50-0, dont get mad.

Because its all fair and public schools recruit as well.:rolleyes:

[twcpfan1]

Going to a school for athletic purposes is not recruiting simply because those coaches had NOTHING to do with that decision.And it is illegal for them to tell an athlete where to go or contact an athlete. Hell they probably didn't even know about the athlete before he attended school. If public schools recruit im sure there would be far more championships at other high schools.

Now on the other hand Private schools DO recruit and they recruit worldwide. Cornerstone has became the "thug" private school if you will. They got kicked out of there own league TAPPS for breaking the rules numerous times and now they want to destroy the very foundation of the UIL by allowing privates to join.

If you want open up pandoras box than go right ahead. But when you see your team get completely pummeled in every sport than don't blame me. And when you go to a basketball game and you see a 7'ft. international center on the floor playing against wagner don't get mad. When you go to a football game and you see an all-start team of athletes on the field and wagner losing 50-0, dont get mad.

Because its all fair and public schools recruit as well.:rolleyes:

It may not be recruiting but it is illegal just the same. The UIL makes it clear that a kid cannot transfer for athletic purposes. Just because it can't be proven, it doesn't make it right. It's the old legal vs moral argument. If a kid transfers for athletics, even if he's not recruited, it's cheating. No real argument there.

[t-long20]

It may not be recruiting but it is illegal just the same. The UIL makes it clear that a kid cannot transfer for athletic purposes. Just because it can't be proven, it doesn't make it right. It's the old legal vs moral argument. If a kid transfers for athletics, even if he's not recruited, it's cheating. No real argument there.

So? What are you going to do about it? Talking on the phone while driving is illegal but idiots still do it. Running a red light is illegal but people still do it. Its one of those things thats just highly improbably to eliminate.

In fact im pretty sure the top Texas teams right now have influenced alot of athletes to attend there school because of there successfull programs.
Is that there fault? :Censor: no.

There is no possible way the UIL can prove that someone is MOVING for athletic purposes. Now transfering, the UIL has a better grip on imo because you have to ask for an in-district transfer.

Legalized private school recruiting and moving to another school is TWO different things, that person still has to live in that attendance zone. Do you want to see the difference? Go ahead and let private schools in the UIL and you will see the difference. Don't get mad when you see The Woodlands playing against Oak Hills Academy.

[t-long20]

It's the old legal vs moral argument. If a kid transfers for athletics, even if he's not recruited, it's cheating.

No its not. You couldn't be more wrong.

[twcpfan1]

So? What are you going to do about it? Talking on the phone while driving is illegal but idiots still do it. Running a red light is illegal but people still do it. Its one of those things thats just highly improbably to eliminate.

In fact im pretty sure the top Texas teams right now have influenced alot of athletes to attend there school because of there successfull programs.
Is that there fault? :Censor: no.

There is no possible way the UIL can prove that someone is MOVING for athletic purposes. Now transfering, the UIL has a better grip on imo because you have to ask for an in-district transfer.

Legalized private school recruiting and moving to another school is TWO different things, that person still has to live in that attendance zone. Do you want to see the difference? Go ahead and let private schools in the UIL and you will see the difference. Don't get mad when you see The Woodlands playing against Oak Hills Academy.

I do agree with you that it's impossible to prove. I believe I made that statement. But the rules are still being broken. Whether it can be proven or not is irrelevant when discussing right or wrong.

[t-long20]

What if a family has kids and they move into another school district, is that recruiting too?

What if a family moves into another school because they think the classes are better, is that recruiting as well?

What is someones son wants to go to another school because of there top rated band, oh man that school is recruiting!

When your in a big city or in a multi- high school district please forgive the student for actually wanting to chose where he wants to go for any reason. Nevermind the fact that some schools happen to be down the street.

[twcpfan1]

No its not. You couldn't be more wrong.


No I'm not.

[t-long20]

I do agree with you that it's impossible to prove. I believe I made that statement. But the rules are still being broken. Whether it can be proven or not is irrelevant when discussing right or wrong.

So please tell me how would letting a private school into the UIL fix that?

[twcpfan1]

What if a family has kids and they move into another school district, is that recruiting too?

What if a family moves into another school because they think the classes are better, is that recruiting as well?

What is someones son wants to go to another school because of there top rated band, oh man that school is recruiting!

When your in a big city or in a multi- high school district please forgive the student for actually wanting to chose where he wants to go for any reason. Nevermind that that some schools happen to be down the street.

Never mentioned any of that. I mentioned athletics and nothing else. Personally I don't have a problem with a kid going to any school of his choice for whatever reason. Even athletics. All I'm saying is the UIL does not allow it. But of course they can't prove it in almost all cases. And if a kid transfers for that reason, the intent is still to break the rules. Whether it can be proven or not. I don't think it puts us in a position to pass judgment on the private schools and their recruiting practices.

[t-long20]

I do agree with you that it's impossible to prove.

Well than its impossible to enforce. But that doesn't mean letting a private school team in will solve all the problems.

[twcpfan1]

So please tell me how would letting a private school into the UIL fix that?

Never said it would. Nor was that my argument for letting them in. But if the system is flawed to start with, might as well just let them in. The more the merrier.

[twcpfan1]

Well than its impossible to enforce. But that doesn't mean letting a private school team in will solve all the problems.

Again, I never mentioned the privates would fix the current problems.

[t-long20]

. I don't think it puts us in a position to pass judgment on the private schools and their recruiting practices.

Well than by all means lets have cornerstone play in the UIL.:rolleyes:
They didnt behave in there own league so maybe they'll behave in ours. Are you some kind of comedian?

[t-long20]

Again, I never mentioned the privates would fix the current problems.

Well than dont complain about the current problems.;) And a private school would only add to the problems.

[twcpfan1]

Well than by all means lets have cornerstone play in the UIL.:rolleyes:
They didnt behave in there own league so maybe they'll behave in ours. Are you some kind of comedian?

Not a representative for Cornerstone. I never mentioned them specifically. Nor did I suggest that let's just make it a free for all and not enforce any rules.

[twcpfan1]

Well than dont complain about the current problems.;) And a private school would only add to the problems.

Never complained. Just telling how it is.

[t-long20]

Not a representative for Cornerstone. I never mentioned them specifically. Nor did I suggest that let's just make it a free for all and not enforce any rules.

Its obvious that cornertone doesn't like to follow rules, why would this be any different?

The last thing the UIL needs is another headache trying to make the "rules" for a private school that wants to be in a public school league. You don't see whats wrong with that? The fact is that it won't happen. And if it did happen by some highly unlikely chance than go see how well its doing in louisiana where they mix private with public schools.

[t-long20]

Never complained. Just telling how it is.

Thank you for telling everyone what they already know.

[slorch]

Hell, I was going through a divorce! Since my son stayed with his mom, he went to the school in that district! End of story! What am I to report? A coach found me a house? Bottom line for me. Public schools recruit as well. And I'm not talking about a job! Ohio has a great system that mixes public and private schools. And what's wrong with creating schools that specilize in basketball? Nobody's trying to take control of football from the UIL. In Texas, if a kid really wants to pursue a sport other than football, he will face numerous obstacles from a public school. I've seen this happen over and over. So if a kid isn't interested in football, I say let him go to a private institution.

nobody's saying they cannot have schools that specialize in basketball. They just shouldn't compete with the regular UIL schools. so go focus on basketball all you want.

personally, i want my kid to have a more rounded education.

[slorch]

Actually they relaxed the attendance zone restrictions when CP opened. TWHS students were given a choice. Even the ones who ended up in the CP zone got to stay. Pretty sure this fall will be the 1st year the restrictions will be enforced.

yes they could choose, but that is fair IMO.

If a kid started at that school(TWHS,) he/she should be afforded the opportunity to finish there if so desired. My point is more about what opportunity exists for any school to be competitive with today's rules, even one such as CP, that didn't neccessarily have its full allotment of students.

[twcpfan1]

Thank you for telling everyone what they already know.

It sure didn't sound like it. People were making it sound like the UIL was totally without flaw as far as being able to keep track of recruitment and transfer issues. At least the private schools would be easier to keep track of.

[t-long20]

It sure didn't sound like it. People were making it sound like the UIL was totally without flaw as far as being able to keep track of recruitment and transfer issues. At least the private schools would be easier to keep track of.

You bring up good points but at the end of the day there is no room for private schools. Somethings you just can't enforce and that is one of them. Is it fair? No. Will it continue to take place? Yes. Do private schools belong in the UIL? No.

Look at the private school Evangel Christian in Lousiana. There a 1A team I believe who wins state almost every single year. Guess how many state titles they have? 11, its jut not fair period. Your going to do more harm than good by letting privates in and thats the bottom line. But those are still good points you bring up

[Wagnerdad]

nobody's saying they cannot have schools that specialize in basketball. They just shouldn't compete with the regular UIL schools. so go focus on basketball all you want.

personally, i want my kid to have a more rounded education.

Sorry, I forgot concussions are mandatory in Texas!! That should round it out!!

[Mr Evangel]

You bring up good points but at the end of the day there is no room for private schools. Somethings you just can't enforce and that is one of them. Is it fair? No. Will it continue to take place? Yes. Do private schools belong in the UIL? No.

Look at the private school Evangel Christian in Lousiana. There a 1A team I believe who wins state almost every single year. Guess how many state titles they have? 11, its jut not fair period. Your going to do more harm than good by letting privates in and thats the bottom line. But those are still good points you bring up

Hello T-Long,
I kept quiet until you brought us up. How much do you know about us besides just reputation? We are a 2A school that after reclassification in Oct should be 3A. Yes we have won 11 titles but in La the passing game until the last couple years has been able to really set us apart from other programs because most of the teams were run oriented. During our strongest period, over 92 percent of our athletes had been there since elementary. I dare say we would have been competitive in Texas but not 11 titles. Lately when playing Texas schools we have lost games to SLC, Longview,Lufkin and etc. Now we have won some games against some of those same teams but I think our record against Texas teams is about half and half as far as winning since we opened up back in 89. Our schedule last year in 2A was very competitive with a 48-42 win against Homer (2A public school), a loss against Bastrop ( 4A public school), a loss against Calvary (2A private school) and a loss in the semifinals against John Curtis (2A private school). I am a coach on staff and I can testify that we get looked at by our governing assocation more than most for everything. We get visited several times a year by the LHSAA in order to see if we are doing things the right way. We don't recruit for we would be thrown out so quick it wouldn't even be funny. Good coaching and quality kids that were there before I came in 02 has built our rep up in having kids want to come to Evangel. Same way with John Curtis in N.O. with the good coaching. Personally I enjoy playing the Texas schools for it is a good battle every time a game is played.

[katyfan52]

before we bought our house, two years ago, we had moved 4 times in 5 years. Every time we relocated, we researched the schools where we were moving to. Our kids are not of athletic age, but school administrators returned our calls when we sought information. Once again, there is no athletic impact, yet we were talking to schools about why we should pick that area. they were giving us information. is that recruiting a 5th grader?

I would say I agree with the current rules as far as UIL maintaining the level of competition in as fair of a set-up as possible. Did UIL change some vital rule that helped Southlake make the jump from 3A to 5A in 10 years and maintain their level of excellence? I'd say no, they didn't. If it is all about money and programs, then I guess none of the new 5A schools have a fighting chance, but alas, our very own College Park has made the football playoffs in its first 2 years of varsity ball. is it just football? You know differently with both basketball programs having great seasons this year. Converse Wagner has already been successful. These schools just happened to be dirivatives of already strong traditions and parental support. That, IMO, is much more important than just throwing money at a program and expecting the wins to pile up.

I do not want Texas to become like the other states and have 3 or 4 dominant private schools that hog up all of the talent. Yes, there are dominant programs, but I chalk that up to coaching and community support as much as anything else. It is not a surprise to me that when a longtime coach leaves, there is sometimes a big drop in the success level. Stephenville, after the Briles promotion to Tech, definitely comes to mind. They have come back to a high level of success because their community(parents) support of the program keeps it at a high level, but the coaching change also changed the results they were used to.

I don't want a level playing field for the privates, because it is impossible to provide from the UIL's perspective and the participants. I think the current system is about as fair as it can be. that is why, at the beginning of each season, there are about 20-25 teams that think they have a realistic chance at a state title. Not just 3 or 4.
Good post slorch. You saved me the trouble, and probably did it better. ;)

[Royal85]

I lived in Illinois until just a few years ago and followed high school football fairly regularly. Private schools compete w/ the publics and people in that state have this debate all of the time. There are a number of private schools that advance deep into the playoffs year in and year out. Teams such as Chicago St. Rita, Chicago Mt. Carmel, Joliet Catholic, Springfield Sacred Heart-Griffin, and a couple of others have won several state championships over the past few years. They do, without question, have an advantage in that state and persuading families to attend those schools does occur. The emphasis of discussions might be academics, but in many cases these discussions include a "wink" when the student is an athletic kid. I don't think its good policy to allow privates in. This would just add to the policing of the UIL and lord knows they have a hard enough time watching over the public schools as it is.

[pied]

In 1990 Permian was DQ'd from playoff contention for conducting what were ruled to be early organized workouts. There were players that voluntarily got together over the summer to do what amounts to 7 on 7 type stuff. A coach from Odessa High taped them and sent the tape to the UIL. UIL ruled they were having organized practices, and disqualified them from the 1990 state playoffs.

Can't tell you about the other examples you cited.

You are correct. I was referring to the '93 season where they were forced out of the playoffs because of the reserve lineman.

[slcdragonfan]

...
There have been many kids transfer to SL Carroll over the years, and quite a few were standout football players. No one questions whether or not booster folks or coaches contacted these kids' parents to see if they would like to come to SL Carroll. Yet, neighboring coaches say it happened. They don't report it because there is lots of stuff going on in the UIL that goes unreported.
...


What neighboring coaches? When? Can you back this up? If so, why didn't it get reported? And don't give me this "..lots of stuff..." crap.

Just because we win, we must be recruiting? Do you know anything about the demographics/geographics/etc of SLC? Do you know that we are year in and year out one of the top rated academic school districts in Texas? Sure, reputation brings people to our school. But that is not recruiting, that is just wanting the best for your kids. I guess we recruit in debate, track, girls soccer, etc, eh?

[chhspantherfan]

What neighboring coaches? When? Can you back this up? If so, why didn't it get reported? And don't give me this "..lots of stuff..." crap.

Just because we win, we must be recruiting? Do you know anything about the demographics/geographics/etc of SLC? Do you know that we are year in and year out one of the top rated academic school districts in Texas? Sure, reputation brings people to our school. But that is not recruiting, that is just wanting the best for your kids. I guess we recruit in debate, track, girls soccer, etc, eh?

now if you could just get your Bowling team moving in the right direction;)

[slcdragonfan]

... Talking on the phone while driving is illegal but idiots still do it. Running a red light is illegal but people still do it. Its one of those things thats just highly improbably to eliminate....


Is talking on the phone now illegal in Texas? I guess it'll be like on Long Island (Grand Central Parkway or LIE) where, in stop-and-go traffic, every third car around me had the driver on the phone (the rest were using headsets).:) Non-scientific survey....but spanned several years.

[pied]

What neighboring coaches? When? Can you back this up? If so, why didn't it get reported? And don't give me this "..lots of stuff..." crap.

Just because we win, we must be recruiting? Do you know anything about the demographics/geographics/etc of SLC? Do you know that we are year in and year out one of the top rated academic school districts in Texas? Sure, reputation brings people to our school. But that is not recruiting, that is just wanting the best for your kids. I guess we recruit in debate, track, girls soccer, etc, eh?

Personally I don't think that SLC nor any good school "recruits" per se. Some of the chest thumping by some of the supporters is a little borderline.

The extent that some fans want to stick their heads in the sand is amazing at times.

[slcdragonfan]

now if you could just get your Bowling team moving in the right direction;)

lol, good chhs*! I guess I did come off wrong with that. Point is/was, being good at something doesn't mean you are cheating. Of course I guess I just had to take the opportunity....

[slcdragonfan]

Personally I don't think that SLC nor any good school "recruits" per se. Some of the chest thumping by some of the supporters is a little borderline.

The extent that some fans want to stick their heads in the sand is amazing at times.

OK, my chest does hurt. But I am not one to do it very often (IMO).

As far as head in the sand, I think that people are way too cynical about this. I am sure there are "things" that go on, but I don't think unsubstantiated claims merit consideration. And I suspect it is less prevalent that would appear from this thread. But in reality, that is just the half-full/half-empty argument. No way to win it.

But keep private schools out:D

[pied]

OK, my chest does hurt. But I am not one to do it very often (IMO).

As far as head in the sand, I think that people are way too cynical about this. I am sure there are "things" that go on, but I don't think unsubstantiated claims merit consideration. And I suspect it is less prevalent that would appear from this thread. But in reality, that is just the half-full/half-empty argument. No way to win it.

But keep private schools out:D

Perhaps. If I were a Carroll fan I would probably wait a week or so from the time that one of the Varsity sports had to forfeit many games because of using an inelgible player. One who was determined to have moved for athletic reasons, to make some of the claims some are doing.

There may not be anything to it, and it is not football, but it certainly does not help the point that:

Just because we win, we must be recruiting? Do you know anything about the demographics/geographics/etc of SLC? Do you know that we are year in and year out one of the top rated academic school districts in Texas? Sure, reputation brings people to our school. But that is not recruiting, that is just wanting the best for your kids. I guess we recruit in debate, track, girls soccer, etc, eh?

I'm just sayin...

[slcdragonfan]

Perhaps. If I were a Carroll fan I would probably wait a week or so from the time that one of the Varsity sports had to forfeit many games because of using an inelgible player. One who was determined to have moved for athletic reasons, to make some of the claims some are doing.
...


Pied, I must be dense today, but I don't get what you are saying. What is your point? Just lay it out, don't be subtle.:confused:

[DrEdward]

.....

There have been many kids transfer to SL Carroll over the years, and quite a few were standout football players. No one questions whether or not booster folks or coaches contacted these kids' parents to see if they would like to come to SL Carroll. Yet, neighboring coaches say it happened. They don't report it because there is lots of stuff going on in the UIL that goes unreported.......



This thread started out with the simple observation that Cornerstone had lost its legal case to join the UIL. There is little doubt that they did so because their cause was lacking in justification. Yet, you have now made a rather serious claim against the Carroll administration and the football coaching staff. Indeed you have asserted that other coaches at other schools know about such and have been complacent about reporting such to the UIL. If you are going to make such claims, please have the integrity to identify the coaches who have been engaged in initiating such recruiting, who they initiated such contact with and which players were so recruited. In addition, which other coaches from other schools have been negligent in reporting such activities?

[dragonsdaddy]

I might be wrong, but doesn't the UIL prohibit transfers for athletic reasons? So if a kid transfers to an attendance zone so he could play football for a particular school, what does it matter if he takes his parents with him? It still defeats the purpose of having such a rule. You guys seem to think that it is all above board. Just because it can't be proven, doesn't make it right or fair.

it is very hard to prove a negative. it is up to the district and the uil to prove the positive. innocence is assumed until proven otherwise.

[cajun]

Private schools in Louisiana been around since "dirt"....This might sound funny, but alot of the private schools over here are like public schools-you just gotta pay to go to them.....I don't know for sure, but there are probably more private high schools and schools than public in New Orleans...

I remember back when the Catholic League here in the city was all Catholic schools....Pretty great league-so good that alot of the public schools wanted to play in it...There's a switch, huh...

Catholic League nowadays ain't nothing like it used to be.....In the day though you had:

Archbishop Rummel
Jesuit
St. Augustine
Brother Martin
Holy Cross
Archbishop Shaw
De La Salle

These schools been around a very long time with very few state titles in football....Rummel(my school) has never won a state football title-been close several times...Archbishop Shaw won a title in 1987....Then again the Catholic League has always played in 5A....BUT when the "Evangel/Curtis rule" was put in place we lost a couple of schools who had to play at their respective enrollements....

Now, swimming, wrestling, soccer and baseball are a different story....Catholic League pretty stout even today....

Anyways, all "privates" are not equal and cannot be judged the same for what it is worth....

That being said...Evangel Christian will never be what they once were....That's just my opinion-...John Curtis will always be John Curtis though as long as JT there....JT and their system can make good football kids -better....It's just a fact...Alot of kids want to play for JT and Curtis-can't change that....John Curtis does have an advantage...I know for a fact there's been a number of kids that have transferred from Rummel to play at Curtis....Rummel don't normally get too many John Curtis transfers...:rolleyes:

BUT, I ain't complaining....Things are what they are here and there....

[dragonsdaddy]

Perhaps. If I were a Carroll fan I would probably wait a week or so from the time that one of the Varsity sports had to forfeit many games because of using an inelgible player. One who was determined to have moved for athletic reasons, to make some of the claims some are doing.

There may not be anything to it, and it is not football, but it certainly does not help the point that:



I'm just sayin...

are you sure? i heard he had moved in with his relatives, and the rules are such that regardless of the reasons, he had to sit out a year. hughes didn't interpret/understand the rule, and they have paid the price.

[2smooth07]

We played you all this past season Cajun (SPX, we got our heads handed to us)...We had a coach from on our staff that said the exact same thing about the public schools in Louisiana...How you all looking for next season...yall have a lot coming back right??? This cornerstone story is dead.

[twcpfan1]

it is very hard to prove a negative. it is up to the district and the uil to prove the positive. innocence is assumed until proven otherwise.

Then, just do away with the rule. It's almost impossible to enforce anyway. Except around here of course. One might ask why you moved 2 streets over to the other Woodlands school's attendance zone.

[dragonsdaddy]

Then, just do away with the rule. It's almost impossible to enforce anyway. Except around here of course. One might ask why you moved 2 streets over to the other Woodlands school's attendance zone.

you need to read some of the reports concerning this reasons the uil went with this rule in the first place. some of the big oil towns were over-the-top. something had to be done. the privates could make the breckinridge 's seem tame.

[twcpfan1]

you need to read some of the reports concerning this reasons the uil went with this rule in the first place. some of the big oil towns were over-the-top. something had to be done. the privates could make the breckinridge 's seem tame.

Since the attendance zones theoretically don't exist for the privates, i'm not surprised. To let them in would require to have other restrictions in place such as keeping track of phantom scholarship offers. Of course, if they were to dip into the Southlake Carroll, Austin Westlake, or Highland Park talent pool, chances are, scholarship offers will not be necessary.

[t-long20]

Is talking on the phone now illegal in Texas? I guess it'll be like on Long Island (Grand Central Parkway or LIE) where, in stop-and-go traffic, every third car around me had the driver on the phone (the rest were using headsets).:) Non-scientific survey....but spanned several years.

In some parts of Texas it is. Its illegal in the DFW area just to name an example

[pied]

Pied, I must be dense today, but I don't get what you are saying. What is your point? Just lay it out, don't be subtle.:confused:

As one who can get carried away at times trying to prove a point, I attempt to tread lightly in situations likes this, and still got a very important fact incorrect.

I am referring to the baseball situation.

Carroll forfeits district victory[/B]
Posted: Thursday, April 03, 2008
The Southake Carroll baseball team forfeited its March 11 district victory against Keller Central for using an ineligible player, coach Larry Hughes said Thursday. The Dragons will also forfeit every non-district game that the player played in. "I don’t know how many non-district games he played, but it’s all or close to all," Hughes said. "The important thing for us, though, is the district game and we’re going to forfeit that. The question of his eligibility arised the morning after our first district game and he hasn’t played since." [B]The player was a senior move-in and lived with a legal guardian. Hughes thought he was eligible because he was living with a legal guardian. However, the UIL rule states that a player a must sit out a year if he moves in with a legal guardian. "He didn’t move to Southlake for athletic purposes, but that didn’t matter," Hughes said. "It was my mistake because I didn’t understand the rule. If he would’ve moved here with his parents, he would have been eligible." With the forfeit, the Dragons are 5-2 in District 5-5A, placing them in a tie for first with Keller (13-7, 5-2). "The only consolation is that we are still tied for first," Hughes said. "These things usually happen at the end of the season and ruin the entire season. But if I would’ve known the rule, it wouldn’t have mattered. I take responsibility for it."

- Drew Davison

http://www.dfwvarsity.com/Baseball/Sports.aspx?sportid=2&season=s&year=2008


The coach stated it was NOT for athletic purposes. Just that a baseball player moved to SLC his senior year, not living with his parents.

[cajun]

I am a coach on staff and I can testify that we get looked at by our governing assocation more than most for everything. We get visited several times a year by the LHSAA in order to see if we are doing things the right way. We don't recruit for we would be thrown out so quick it wouldn't even be funny. Good coaching and quality kids that were there before I came in 02 has built our rep up in having kids want to come to Evangel. Same way with John Curtis in N.O. with the good coaching. Personally I enjoy playing the Texas schools for it is a good battle every time a game is played.

Evangel back in their "glory years" had some unreal teams for a school with their enrollment size-you weren't there(I don't think)...:eek:

Now that Calvary Baptist has formed Evangel will never be that "dominate Evangel" (wonder why?)...You all will still be good, but no where close to some of those teams in the late 90's and earlier this decade....Those were some MONSTER teams...You just don't know...

You are correct though about the LHSAA....They don't care much for Evangel or John Curtis....In a couple years they probably won't care much for Calvary Baptist either...:D

As for recruiting, I dunno....BUT, Evangel has had some advantages just like John Curtis has....When Evangel and John Curtis combined WIN 34 or 35 baseball and basketball state titles maybe the LHSAA will ease up...

[cajun]

We played you all this past season Cajun (SPX, we got our heads handed to us)...We had a coach from on our staff that said the exact same thing about the public schools in Louisiana...How you all looking for next season...yall have a lot coming back right??? This cornerstone story is dead.

We should make alittle noise this year....Rummel always put out a quality team...We just always come up a play short or fumble away from being really good-that's football though....

I haven't seen the schedules yet, but I believe we be playing again....You all had a better team than the score showed last year, I think(just one of those games)....How's it looking at SPX?

[slcdragonfan]

...
The coach stated it was NOT for athletic purposes. Just that a baseball player moved to SLC his senior year, not living with his parents.

Thanks. I had not seen that; been out of pocket of late. Here is what I would say; regarding pain, that is very painful, but those are the rules. The coach stepped up to the responsibility and all are paying the price. I regret that all the players and the coaching staff are punished because of an (apparently) inadvertent mistake. But, those are the rules and we have to bear the responsibility. I feel for the student as well; he misses the rest of his SR. season playing ball.

However, I don't see that Coach "recruited" the kid, just that he was not as familiar with the rules as he should be. But again, that is my perception, I'm sure lots of folks would (will?) take it another way.

[slcdragonfan]

In some parts of Texas it is. Its illegal in the DFW area just to name an example

I guess I don't get out much. I live in Southlake and the only thing I had heard was that there was talk in some areas of limiting cell talk in school zones (a VERY good idea).

[dragonsdaddy]

I guess I don't get out much. I live in Southlake and the only thing I had heard was that there was talk in some areas of limiting cell talk in school zones (a VERY good idea).

hp has passed it, but i don't think dallas has.

[Mr Evangel]

Evangel back in their "glory years" had some unreal teams for a school with their enrollment size-you weren't there(I don't think)...:eek:

Now that Calvary Baptist has formed Evangel will never be that "dominate Evangel" (wonder why?)...You all will still be good, but no where close to some of those teams in the late 90's and earlier this decade....Those were some MONSTER teams...You just don't know...

You are correct though about the LHSAA....They don't care much for Evangel or John Curtis....In a couple years they probably won't care much for Calvary Baptist either...:D

As for recruiting, I dunno....BUT, Evangel has had some advantages just like John Curtis has....When Evangel and John Curtis combined WIN 34 or 35 baseball and basketball state titles maybe the LHSAA will ease up...

You are right, I wasn't there during Evangel's glory years. In the mid 90's I was coaching at three other private schools in the MPSA. Glenbrook, Plain Dealing and Claiborne. I have looked at many tapes from ECA's glory days in the 90's and early 2000's. The 2002 team was unreal so I did a little research that year. 92 percent of the athletes had been there since elementary. Kids such as John David Booty and Jacob Hester to name two. There were only three private schools before Calvary came in Caddo. Most of the Baptists went to Evangel before Calvary. Now the talent pool has split in half with Calvary being only 10 minutes away.

Another reason we were so good was a veteran coaching staff. Ronnie Alexander,John Bachman, Denny Duron, Chris Tilley, Johnny Booty , that is more experience than most staffs get to have. I am looking forward to this year but we won't ever have the size that we had back in the 90's.

[t-long20]

I guess I don't get out much. I live in Southlake and the only thing I had heard was that there was talk in some areas of limiting cell talk in school zones (a VERY good idea).

Well its a school zone cell phone ban. Close enough:D

[2smooth07]

Cajun, I was wondering what happend in the playoffs with yall...SPX will be okay but they will be missing alot seniors of that team that won state last year...that whole game was a mess from the opening kickoff when our return guy ran backwards then you what happens when doo doo rolls down hill...where is the strong safety gonna go to school...i dont think we come to the boot to play u guys this year, we play sulphur instead...

[cajun]

The 2002 team was unreal so I did a little research that year. 92 percent of the athletes had been there since elementary. Kids such as John David Booty and Jacob Hester to name two. There were only three private schools before Calvary came in Caddo. Most of the Baptists went to Evangel before Calvary. Now the talent pool has split in half with Calvary being only 10 minutes away.

.

92 percent ain't too bad....That's kinda surprising....

I know Evangel was pretty hard on us(Rummel) about that time...We played you all 3 straight years in the playoffs when Evangel was 5A....I remember the 2003 playoff game you all beat us 7-5....You all were up 7-3 at halftime-we scored a safety for the only points of the 2nd half...:mad:

I think if my memory serves me right in 2002 you put a hurting on us in the semi-finals...38-0...Evangel had us 12-0 at halftime-then broke it open in the 2nd half...

In 2001 you all put a hurting on us again...40-10, I believe....We actually lead that game 10-7 at halftime...:mad:....That 2001 Evangel team was pretty good....You all beat Lufkin and Longview that year....

Anyways, come to 5A NOW!....:D

[Mr Evangel]

Hey Cajun,
We plan on coming to 5A if they pass the superclass rule that they shelved back this past Jan. Our enrollment is picking up to where even if they do not pass the superclass rule, we will be 3A in the next reclassification. Our junior high is boomng in attendance. The deal is that Calvary is booming in attendance also. The public schools in Shreveport/Bossier is not great so the 3 private schools in Shreveport are gaining in attendance. If you look at our nondistrict schedule, we play as hard a competition as we can. The last Texas school that we played was Texas High and we will be playing Lake Travis next season in game three. Texas football is some of the best in the nation!

[cajun]

Hey Cajun,
We plan on coming to 5A if they pass the superclass rule that they shelved back this past Jan. Our enrollment is picking up to where even if they do not pass the superclass rule, we will be 3A in the next reclassification. Our junior high is boomng in attendance. The deal is that Calvary is booming in attendance also. The public schools in Shreveport/Bossier is not great so the 3 private schools in Shreveport are gaining in attendance. If you look at our nondistrict schedule, we play as hard a competition as we can. The last Texas school that we played was Texas High and we will be playing Lake Travis next season in game three. Texas football is some of the best in the nation!

No, I mean come to 5A this year!..(lol)

Seriously, Evangel plays a great schedule-always has....I don't think that "superclass" is ever gonna pan out though...Been hearing about it for a couple years now....It could, I guess at some point in time....

Good luck with Lake Travis...That should be interesting....I take it that's a done deal.....

[cajun]

Hey Cajun,
We plan on coming to 5A if they pass the superclass rule that they shelved back this past Jan. Our enrollment is picking up to where even if they do not pass the superclass rule, we will be 3A in the next reclassification. Our junior high is boomng in attendance. The deal is that Calvary is booming in attendance also. The public schools in Shreveport/Bossier is not great so the 3 private schools in Shreveport are gaining in attendance. If you look at our nondistrict schedule, we play as hard a competition as we can. The last Texas school that we played was Texas High and we will be playing Lake Travis next season in game three. Texas football is some of the best in the nation!


nm double

[cajun]

Cajun, I was wondering what happend in the playoffs with yall...SPX will be okay but they will be missing alot seniors of that team that won state last year...that whole game was a mess from the opening kickoff when our return guy ran backwards then you what happens when doo doo rolls down hill...where is the strong safety gonna go to school...i dont think we come to the boot to play u guys this year, we play sulphur instead...

We got bounced in the quarters...Wasn't anyone gonna beat Destrehan anyways....

Sulphur will be a good test for you all....I know Kelly, Tx beat Sulphur last year, but I wouldn't go by that game....Sulphur beat us in 2006 in the Semifinals in 5A 7-0-they beat West Monroe 21-14 that same year in the playoffs....Sulphur normally pretty good....

[farmerfan]

Yep, I was against their admittance, from a precedent standpoint, but never figured those schools would become a football factory.

Still have my eyes on Argyle Liberty(sorry farmer), Clay Academy, and John Paul II(Plano). I can see a couple of others on the horizon as well. Those would include Prestonwood/Faith Christian.

As a parent who is now sending their kid to private school and don't have real plas to end that going into HS, I wonder how my opinion may change in the future.

Pied,

Those schools you speak of would never attempt to leave TAPPS to join the UIL. TAPPS is a very strong private school league and the coaches at those schools are happy to be in TAPPS. Knowing Coach Bowles at Liberty, I can assure you he and the administration have no desire whatsoever to leave TAPPS and join the UIL. Sure, like any public school, they welcome in new transfer students, but will not go out and actively recruit top talent. What TAPPS needs to do is eliminate some of their classifications and maybe only go with 4. They need to merge Division 1 and 2 which would put TCA-Addison, Kelly, Lynch, Nolan, Dunne, Central Catholic, Liberty, Midland Christian, Second Baptist, Dallas Christian and Prestonwood in the same classification. I could actually see TAPPS doing that in the future.

[Mr Evangel]

No, I mean come to 5A this year!..(lol)

Seriously, Evangel plays a great schedule-always has....I don't think that "superclass" is ever gonna pan out though...Been hearing about it for a couple years now....It could, I guess at some point in time....

Good luck with Lake Travis...That should be interesting....I take it that's a done deal.....

As far as I know, everything is signed sealed and delivered. I have looked at their football website. Very impressive. They have one of the most beautiful weight facilities that I have ever seen. Someone told me that it is one of the biggest weightrooms in Texas. That possibly could be true after viewing it online. I am sure that some of these 5A schools in Texas such as SLC ,Lufkin, or Katy could equal their weightroom.. Looking forward to the seaon.

[pied]

Pied,

Those schools you speak of would never attempt to leave TAPPS to join the UIL. TAPPS is a very strong private school league and the coaches at those schools are happy to be in TAPPS. Knowing Coach Bowles at Liberty, I can assure you he and the administration have no desire whatsoever to leave TAPPS and join the UIL.

You may be 100% correct, it's just a feeling I get. I have had lots of feelings before, most were for crap.

[pied]

Pied,

Those schools you speak of would never attempt to leave TAPPS to join the UIL. TAPPS is a very strong private school league and the coaches at those schools are happy to be in TAPPS. Knowing Coach Bowles at Liberty, I can assure you he and the administration have no desire whatsoever to leave TAPPS and join the UIL.

You may be 100% correct, it's just a feeling I get. I have had lots of feelings before, most were for crap.

Having toured Liberty at its old location in Denton, and their very very nice new digs, I just got a feeling that they may be on to something.

A community support(close to the LISD schools), and a TON of $$$ out in FM/Bartonville/Argyle/etc. is a good combination.

[farmerfan]

You may be 100% correct, it's just a feeling I get. I have had lots of feelings before, most were for crap.

Having toured Liberty at its old location in Denton, and their very very nice new digs, I just got a feeling that they may be on to something.

A community support(close to the LISD schools), and a TON of $$$ out in FM/Bartonville/Argyle/etc. is a good combination.

Us old alums feel the same. After attending classes and playing on the athletic fields at the old Bonnie Brae campus, I am beyond jealous what the new kids have to work with now. Of course the old campus IMO gave us a huge homefield advantage in football. During my 4 years of HS there we were 22-2 at our home football stadium. Our only 2 losses came my junior year in 98 at the hands of TAPPS 4A state champion Dallas Christian and UIL 2A state champion Celina. The year before we beat Celina on that same field.
The new campus rivals anything I have ever seen in the ranks of private schools in this state.
I can see how some would come to the conclusion that they may be up to something and if I didn't know Coach Bowles so well or was an alum I too might think that. But as I said, I can promise you as long as TAPPS stays strong which it should then Liberty is looking to go nowhere.

[country club]

I must chuckle when i read about recruiting in HS. Back in the day at my HS, name will go unmentioned. We were and still are a Baseball factory. Yes it was our Coaching Staff that made the biggest difference, but they were creative in their recruiting, our HS was the only campus offering Russian as a foreign language in HISD. Alot of the baseball players required tutors for their Russian class. :)

[pied]

I can see how some would come to the conclusion that they may be up to something and if I didn't know Coach Bowles so well or was an alum I too might think that. But as I said, I can promise you as long as TAPPS stays strong which it should then Liberty is looking to go nowhere.


Just want to clarify, "on to something" and "up to something" are very different.

I certainly don't want to accuse the school, its coaches, or students of wrong doing. I got a feeling at the school that they were striving to be the best. That may well be in TAPPS.

Perhaps I should phrase it differently. If I were going to develop schools into football powerhouses, I can see several that have a very high potential, and Liberty is certainly one.