Concentrations of Power in the New Alignment

[WOS87]

The 246 5A programs of the new alignment have won a combined 95 state titles over the years.

The teams of one district alone (2-5A) have won more state titles (19 total)
...than all 59 of the teams from Region II have combined (16 titles)

...more than all 60 of the teams from Region III have combined (15 titles)

...and more than all 66 of the teams from Region IV have combined (12 titles)

4 of the new districts (ALL in Region I) have teams which can claim 45 of those 95 titles (2-5A, 3-5A, 6-5A & 8-5A)

8 of the new districts have no teams that have ever won even 1 state title in football (1-5A, 13-5A, 15-5A, 16-5A, 28-5A, 29-5A, 31-5A & 32-5A)

4 of those districts have no teams that have ever even advanced to play in a state final (1-5A, 16-5A, 29-5A & 32-5A)

3 districts have no teams that have ever advanced past the quarterfinal round of the playoffs (1-5A, 16-5A & 29-5A)

There are 22 programs that have never qualified for the 11-man playoffs in their history. 21 of them are less than a decade old having opened since the year 2000 with Houston Northbrook (which opened in 1974) being the only exception.

4 districts broke the 1000 point mark (2-5A, 6-5A, 12-5A and 26-5A)

This is the same format I used in my playoff ranking I posted a while back. Each column represents a specific playoff round that a program has advanced to.

Ch is the total number of championships won = 64 pts each
Fn is the total number of losses in the state finals = 32 pts each
Sm is the total number of losses in the semifinals = 16 pts each
Qu is the total number of losses in the quarterfinals = 8 pts each
16 is the total number of losses in the round of 16 = 4 pts each
32 is the total number of losses in the round of 32 = 2 pts each
64 is the total number of losses in the round of 64 = 1 pt each

The points in the far right column are calculated using the totals listed above

The "1st Year" column is the year of each school's 1st playoff appearance, NOT the year the school first started its football program.

All-Time Playoff Stats for 5A Schools and Districts under the 2008 Alignment


http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/stats/5a/5adistrictplayoffs.gif

[Dynastybegan86]

Very Cool WOS! I would be interested in seeing how the points would change if you figured the points for WINS instead of losses.

[WOS87]

Very Cool WOS! I would be interested in seeing how the points would change if you figured the points for WINS instead of losses.


I used losses to even out the huge differences in the size of the playoff brackets over the years. The largest classification tournament has ranged from only 4 qualifying teams (in the short-lived City Conference) from 1948-1950 to the 128 qualifying teams we have currently.

If I did it using a point system for individual wins, teams that won titles playing in a 32 team bracket (prior to 2006 in some cases) a 16 team bracket (prior to 1968) and an 8 team bracket (prior to 1956) would be highly discounted. Back when there were only 16 districts, a large percentage of the individual districts had sometimes 14 or 15 teams in them divided into two zones, so the fact that only one team out of each of those districts would advance to the playoffs does not mean that a 16 team playoff field was any easier to get through than the 64 teams we have today.

[chhspantherfan]

Incredible work. Thanks. I remember the one team from each district days all too well. Many times a runnerup would be in the state top 10 and never see a playoff down. Thanks again.

[bigdaddydog]

Way to go WOS87! Another fine effort.

How hard would it be to factor in the total number of seasons or total number of games for each of the programs in order to balance when comparing a program like #1 points team Plano that has been around alot longer than one like Carroll or Trinity?

Thanks again for some great off season content!:D


~

[RRSP1]

I think it's interesting how the new 16-5A (88% of last year's 14-5A) has been acknowledged as one of the toughest districts in the state, but we fair poorly in this type of analysis. I've often wondered if a tough district, where we beat each other up weekly, is really much of an advantage past the second playoff round.

[rodjohns]

The 246 5A programs of the new alignment have won a combined 95 state titles over the years.

The teams of one district alone (2-5A) have won more state titles (19 total)
...than all 59 of the teams from Region II have combined (16 titles)

...more than all 60 of the teams from Region III have combined (15 titles)

...and more than all 66 of the teams from Region IV have combined (12 titles)

4 of the new districts (ALL in Region I) have teams which can claim 45 of those 95 titles (2-5A, 3-5A, 6-5A & 8-5A)

8 of the new districts have no teams that have ever won even 1 state title in football (1-5A, 13-5A, 15-5A, 16-5A, 28-5A, 29-5A, 31-5A & 32-5A)

4 of those districts have no teams that have ever even advanced to play in a state final (1-5A, 16-5A, 29-5A & 32-5A)

3 districts have no teams that have ever advanced past the quarterfinal round of the playoffs (1-5A, 16-5A & 29-5A)

There are 22 programs that have never qualified for the 11-man playoffs in their history. 21 of them are less than a decade old having opened since the year 2000 with Houston Northbrook (which opened in 1974) being the only exception.

4 districts broke the 1000 point mark (2-5A, 6-5A, 12-5A and 26-5A)

This is the same format I used in my playoff ranking I posted a while back. Each column represents a specific playoff round that a program has advanced to.

Ch is the total number of championships won = 64 pts each
Fn is the total number of losses in the state finals = 32 pts each
Sm is the total number of losses in the semifinals = 16 pts each
Qu is the total number of losses in the quarterfinals = 8 pts each
16 is the total number of losses in the round of 16 = 4 pts each
32 is the total number of losses in the round of 32 = 2 pts each
64 is the total number of losses in the round of 64 = 1 pt each

The points in the far right column are calculated using the totals listed above

The "1st Year" column is the year of each school's 1st playoff appearance, NOT the year the school first started its football program.

All-Time Playoff Stats for 5A Schools and Districts under the 2008 Alignment


http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/stats/5a/5adistrictplayoffs.gif

Is there a spreadsheet that I have missed somehow?

[The Lone Ranger]

Well I don't think it's very fair to start Jesuit and Strake in the 2000s. Jesuit has been playing football since 1942 and has been playing well. We weren't big enough to compete in 5A, of course, but I think that had we been in the 2nd-highest class in the UIL the whole time we'd have at least one title.

Strake also has a strong history over their 40 years.

And if you count our TCIL titles (it isn't a fair comparison because the playoffs weren't as deep, but the best in TCIL AAA could compete with the best in UIL AAA back in the day), then 8-5A has the most titles with 28 (20 Jesuit, 7 Plano, and 1 Wylie).

[mad_fan]

Sometimes...your stats...are just depressing...

;)

[HebronHawk]

The "1st year" column is the first year a team made it to the playoffs? Not the first year a school was open.

[Fleeman93]

Well I don't think it's very fair to start Jesuit and Strake in the 2000s. Jesuit has been playing football since 1942 and has been playing well. We weren't big enough to compete in 5A, of course, but I think that had we been in the 2nd-highest class in the UIL the whole time we'd have at least one title.

Strake also has a strong history over their 40 years.

And if you count our TCIL titles (it isn't a fair comparison because the playoffs weren't as deep, but the best in TCIL AAA could compete with the best in UIL AAA back in the day), then 8-5A has the most titles with 28 (20 Jesuit, 7 Plano, and 1 Wylie).


Neither of the jesuits have ANY titles and if the stars stay aligned they NEVER will. The jesuits should just feel BLESSED that they get to compete in a league they have no business being in.

[BandidoNB]

Region 4 is the region that averages the highest # teams at more than 8 teams per district.

[Plano West Wolf]

Woah! What? Slow down! Sunset has won a state championship!? :eek:

I find that hard to believe...

[WOS87]

Woah! What? Slow down! Sunset has won a state championship!? :eek:

I find that hard to believe...


It's true....

The Sports Page December 9th, 1950 (http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/pdf/sunset1950.pdf)

[Plano West Wolf]

It's true....

The Sports Page December 9th, 1950 (http://idisk.mac.com/cboehme69-Public/pdf/sunset1950.pdf)

Yes, it is. Wow, the times REALLY have changed. Anyway, good job on this, like always! :D

[The Lone Ranger]

Neither of the jesuits have ANY titles and if the stars stay aligned they NEVER will. The jesuits should just feel BLESSED that they get to compete in a league they have no business being in.

Strake Jesuit was founded in 1960, and had its first graduating class in 1965. They won TCIL AAA titles in 1976, 1977, and 1979 (this was the highest classification). Strake won a TCIL AAAA title in 1980 and 1994. (the largest conference in the TCIL was considered to be equivalent to the second-largest in the UIL). They were runners-up in the single-division TCIL in 1998 and 1999. They also won the Jesuit Bowl, the signature game for the two independent Jesuit schools, all four years it was contested: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.

Dallas Jesuit was founded in 1942, and had its first graduating class in 1943. They competed as an independent from 1942 to c. 1951, and had an undefeated season in 1949. We began TCIL play around 1952 (the exact year that an official title was first awarded is uncertain). Jesuit won TCIL AAA titles in 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960 ,1967, 1974, 1975 and 1978. Jesuit won AAAA titles in 1982, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 1995. Jesuit won the single-division TCIL in 1997, 1998, and 1999. We had an unbeaten season in 1991 and had a perfect season in 1959. We also finished as runner up in 53, 55, 61, 64, 68, 73, 77, 81, 84, 88, 94, and 96.

I wouldn't call that having NO titles.

Jesuit shouldn't need to feel blessed just to be in the UIL. We have every constitutional right to compete in the league, and we meet the UIL's elligibility requirements. We just go out and play with class and do our best. Competing with 4A numbers in one of the largest 5A districts is tough. We don't expect to go out and win state titles. But we will come out every week and compete as well as we can.

I fail to see how we have no business being in the league. We are a large private school and don't fit in to any private school league. The UIL is the best organization for us and Jesuit has done nothing harmful to the UIL and its image.

[Magellan]

For how great it is to have all those trophies, the only ones that matter are the ones that involve current coaches and players.
I can extend it as far as the older siblings of current players, but, to quote myself....

"Trophies don't play games."

[Mustangman21]

Strake Jesuit was founded in 1960, and had its first graduating class in 1965. They won TCIL AAA titles in 1976, 1977, and 1979 (this was the highest classification). Strake won a TCIL AAAA title in 1980 and 1994. (the largest conference in the TCIL was considered to be equivalent to the second-largest in the UIL). They were runners-up in the single-division TCIL in 1998 and 1999. They also won the Jesuit Bowl, the signature game for the two independent Jesuit schools, all four years it was contested: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.

Dallas Jesuit was founded in 1942, and had its first graduating class in 1943. They competed as an independent from 1942 to c. 1951, and had an undefeated season in 1949. We began TCIL play around 1952 (the exact year that an official title was first awarded is uncertain). Jesuit won TCIL AAA titles in 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960 ,1967, 1974, 1975 and 1978. Jesuit won AAAA titles in 1982, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 1995. Jesuit won the single-division TCIL in 1997, 1998, and 1999. We had an unbeaten season in 1991 and had a perfect season in 1959. We also finished as runner up in 53, 55, 61, 64, 68, 73, 77, 81, 84, 88, 94, and 96.

I wouldn't call that having NO titles.

Jesuit shouldn't need to feel blessed just to be in the UIL. We have every constitutional right to compete in the league, and we meet the UIL's elligibility requirements. We just go out and play with class and do our best. Competing with 4A numbers in one of the largest 5A districts is tough. We don't expect to go out and win state titles. But we will come out every week and compete as well as we can.

I fail to see how we have no business being in the league. We are a large private school and don't fit in to any private school league. The UIL is the best organization for us and Jesuit has done nothing harmful to the UIL and its image.

I think the point he was getting at is no1 from a team thats been in the uil since they started is gonna give jesuit credit for their tcil titles and they shouldn't nor should they be counted in as a power district cause we all no in texas public schools are where the best football is played private is pretty weak except for a few

[WOS87]

Another reason I would be very hesitant to include TCIL titles is that for pretty much the last decade of the TCIL's existence, the largest classification consisted of anywhere from 4-8 schools TOTAL as so many of the private schools had already jumped ship over to TAPPS. So a "State Title" from the 1990's was essentially the equivalent of a district title... In fact, for 4 years there, there were only 4 or 5 schools in TCIL 4A and instead of a tournament, they just played a round-robin schedule between all 4 schools and the teams with the best records were proclaimed "State Champs".

[Fleeman93]

Strake Jesuit was founded in 1960, and had its first graduating class in 1965. They won TCIL AAA titles in 1976, 1977, and 1979 (this was the highest classification). Strake won a TCIL AAAA title in 1980 and 1994. (the largest conference in the TCIL was considered to be equivalent to the second-largest in the UIL). They were runners-up in the single-division TCIL in 1998 and 1999. They also won the Jesuit Bowl, the signature game for the two independent Jesuit schools, all four years it was contested: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.

Dallas Jesuit was founded in 1942, and had its first graduating class in 1943. They competed as an independent from 1942 to c. 1951, and had an undefeated season in 1949. We began TCIL play around 1952 (the exact year that an official title was first awarded is uncertain). Jesuit won TCIL AAA titles in 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960 ,1967, 1974, 1975 and 1978. Jesuit won AAAA titles in 1982, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 1995. Jesuit won the single-division TCIL in 1997, 1998, and 1999. We had an unbeaten season in 1991 and had a perfect season in 1959. We also finished as runner up in 53, 55, 61, 64, 68, 73, 77, 81, 84, 88, 94, and 96.

I wouldn't call that having NO titles.

Jesuit shouldn't need to feel blessed just to be in the UIL. We have every constitutional right to compete in the league, and we meet the UIL's elligibility requirements. We just go out and play with class and do our best. Competing with 4A numbers in one of the largest 5A districts is tough. We don't expect to go out and win state titles. But we will come out every week and compete as well as we can.

I fail to see how we have no business being in the league. We are a large private school and don't fit in to any private school league. The UIL is the best organization for us and Jesuit has done nothing harmful to the UIL and its image.


My old junior high school has a few titles also. the jesuits meet the UIL's eligibility requirement under the "bent" rules. the jesuits have no business because they are a private school playing in a public school league. I have no problem with the jesuits as of now but someday, it may be 5 years or it may be 20 years, a private school with less good intentions as the jesuits will sue their way into the UIL and it will go downhill from there. Here is a thought, instead of suing their way into the UIL why did the large private jesuits just not start a new good thing in the form of their own league. My whole problem with the jesuits is that I feel it is the START of the downfall of 5A Texas football as we know it now and I have a real problem with that.

[mojotrain]

For how great it is to have all those trophies, the only ones that matter are the ones that involve current coaches and players.
I can extend it as far as the older siblings of current players, but, to quote myself....

"Trophies don't play games."

So to you WWII doesn't matter? This topic concerns history and it happens to matter. Under your reasoning history of football beyond three years ago, unless you have kids playing has no value. What this happens to be about, is history. If you are not or have not been a part of this history, I understand your plight. Your are outnumbered in you feelings.

[Mustangman21]

so your tellin me if another country wants to go to war with us we should just present a wwII trophy(pretty sure there's not 1) and say thats why you shouldnt try to fight me?...

[Mustangman21]

plus your post is irrelevant this topic is about power districts for 2008 not you were good in the old days so you should get your recognition!

[mojotrain]

so your tellin me if another country wants to go to war with us we should just present a wwII trophy(pretty sure there's not 1) and say thats why you shouldnt try to fight me?...

I'm not sure my reply was to you but if you feel the same then here is the simple (for you) point of my reply. This post is about the history of HS football. I don't believe the originator of the topic intended to make you think that what happened yesterday is a indicator of what is in the future. Its about last season through 50 seasons ago. So, hang on here, the topic matters, because thats what it's about. Maybe for simplicitys sake thats all that I should have posted.

WWII is history. Above you head? In a way we have trophys as the results of that war. If that is beyond you now, then you must find someone who cares to explain it to you. Now we battle but don't value or subsequently mimic our history. So we lose.

If you feel frisky enough to reply (or fight, in your words) to this message then I am game. You sound easy. I'll be in Washington until the 10th of March but I look forward to finding you at this place then for further uhh,debate.

[WOS87]

so your tellin me if another country wants to go to war with us we should just present a wwII trophy(pretty sure there's not 1) and say thats why you shouldnt try to fight me?...

The post was not meant to be a preseason indicator of how well any particular team will do in the upcoming season, BUT, it is true that history does tend to repeat itself and teams that have a history of doing well in the past generally tend to continue doing well. You can't discount tradition.

The U.S. may not win a war solely from having a "WWII Trophy" but you know, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of countries around the world that have thought twice about going to war against us just because we do still have that metaphorical trophy in our trophy case.

Over a third (63 of 184) of the Region Titles that have been crowned in 5A since 1980 have been claimed by only 8 different schools (Converse Judson, Odessa Permian, Katy, Austin Westlake, Euless Trinity, Plano, Aldine Eisenhower and Southlake Carroll). These same programs have also won more than half (24 of 46) of the 5A State Titles since 1980.

If there were one district consisting of the above 8 schools and another district consisting of Houston Northbrook, Cedar Park Vista Ridge, Katy Seven Lakes, Katy Morton Ranch, Atascocita, Fort Bend Bush, Austin Akins, and Killeen Shoemaker (8 teams that have never qualified for the playoffs), which district would your money be on to do better next season?

[mojotrain]

The post was not meant to be a preseason indicator of how well any particular team will do in the upcoming season, BUT, it is true that history does tend to repeat itself and teams that have a history of doing well in the past generally tend to continue doing well. You can't discount tradition.

The U.S. may not win a war solely from having a "WWII Trophy" but you know, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of countries around the world that have thought twice about going to war against us just because we do still have that metaphorical trophy in our trophy case.

Over a third (63 of 184) of the Region Titles that have been crowned in 5A since 1980 have been claimed by only 8 different schools (Converse Judson, Odessa Permian, Katy, Austin Westlake, Euless Trinity, Plano, Aldine Eisenhower and Southlake Carroll). These same programs have also won more than half (24 of 46) of the 5A State Titles since 1980.

If there were one district consisting of the above 8 schools and another district consisting of Houston Northbrook, Cedar Park Vista Ridge, Katy Seven Lakes, Katy Morton Ranch, Atascocita, Fort Bend Bush, Austin Akins, and Killeen Shoemaker (8 teams that have never qualified for the playoffs), which district would your money be on to do better next season?

A little more tact with reason, maybe will work better. Tks.

[The Lone Ranger]

My old junior high school has a few titles also. the jesuits meet the UIL's eligibility requirement under the "bent" rules. the jesuits have no business because they are a private school playing in a public school league. I have no problem with the jesuits as of now but someday, it may be 5 years or it may be 20 years, a private school with less good intentions as the jesuits will sue their way into the UIL and it will go downhill from there. Here is a thought, instead of suing their way into the UIL why did the large private jesuits just not start a new good thing in the form of their own league. My whole problem with the jesuits is that I feel it is the START of the downfall of 5A Texas football as we know it now and I have a real problem with that.

Yes, I agree that the TCIL titles in the later years are much more like district titles. TCIL titles were comparable probably to a 3A/4A regional title until the late 90s. I do think that most years the TCIL champ could easily have made the final four in the second-classification. In the later years, it wasn't a huge accomplishment, but we have TAPPS lax rules and our schools' large growth to blame. Jesuit really would have loved the 60s-70s TCIL to remain (back before SPX screwed it all up). We had our own district (2-AAA) with 5 schools: us, Lynch, Nolan, Dunne, and Reicher. The schools throughout the state were competitive, such as St. Thomas, Strake Jesuit, Central Catholic, St. Gerard, and Cathedral. This would be an ideal solution, but with current demographics it well never happen. TCIL and TAPS almost merged around 1986 I believe, but the TAPS schools shot it down, likely wanting to avoid competing against schools like Jesuit and STH.

TAPPS was formed by schools (such as Houston St. Pius) who did not want to have to play in a higher classification in the TCIL. Schools in the TCIL would just leave the league if they didn't like an alignment. TAPPS also had very lax rules about recruiting, inducement, elligibility, coaching, etc. TCIL rules differed from UIL rules in only two ways: there were no geographic attendance zones, and schools could use volunteer coaches. Most of the larger schools did not rely on volunteers, and could likely drop them and still have good programs. Jesuit had no problem dropping our volunteer coaches, and we've competed well in the UIL.

The TCIL ended up not working because of great travel and because of size gaps. Jesuit has around 1030 boys. Strake has about 850. STH has 650, and la Cate has about 500--a big gap. The only former members who were at at least 400 or so boys were Central, Lynch, and Nolan. Kelly was the 5th member for all but the last 4 years, and they only have about 400 COED. El Paso Patterson also competed in the TCIL in all sports but football (I think all the way to the end in 2000), and they only have 300 coed. If Kelly were in 2A, as they could be with their size, they could easily compete for state titles. But it isn't fair to make them compete against large 4A/small 5A Jesuit. We also looked at the SPC, but their largest school is Dallas St. Mark's, who have roughly 350 boys. Their top division has schools with 350 students COED. It also wouldn't help travel as we'd have to compete in Houston and Tulsa.

The only schools who would be a suitable league for Jesuit were the former TCIL: Jesuit, Strake Jesuit, St. Thomas, Cathedral, Nolan, Lynch, and Central Catholic (and on the girls side, Ursuline, St. Agnes, Loretto, Nolan, Lynch, and Incarnate Word). Again, the travel is tremendous, and with only 6-7 teams, it's like a district and not a state championship.

I think that those schools listed above would be the only private schools who would really consider joining the UIL at 5A and could compete fairly. Cathedral in particular gets screwed, as they are completely independent, and the power point system TAPPS uses usually screws la Cate as they are competing against NM 2A schools--all they can find. Cathedral and Loretto should join 2-4A in the UIL. Or they should just petition to join the NMAA, but TAPPS is not a great solution for them.

I agree the Cornerstones would destroy the UIL with the way they play now. But UIL rules are more strict and enforcement is TREMENDOUSLY better. Cornerstone would be driven from the league if they tried to join the UIL and cheat.

I personally think the rule should be that single-gender private schools with an enrollment of at least 400 should be allowed to join the UIL at their natural classification. They aren't coed, so they aren't getting a service offered at a local public school, and with high tuition and long travel, they would offset any competitive advantages, making competition fair.

No small TAPPS schools want to join the UIL, as they would have to give up volunteer coaches, lax recruiting rules, etc. They just wouldn't survive as schools--they'd either merge with one another to be more competitive for students (it would be hard to attract any students with recruitment clouds) or they'd collapse and close. Only the big TAPPS DI schools would even have interest, and I don't even think many of them would.

If you gave every TAPPS Division I school the option to join the UIL at the 4A level, I would put money on the fact that only EP Cathedral and EP Loretto would accept the offer.

[RangerFan]

Jesuit is very happy to be in the UIL.

Jesuit's 20 TCIL State Titles do not compare to UIL 5A State Titles.

Although it is doubtful Jesuit will ever win a UIL 5A State Title, they will try and compete within the UIL rules.

Although most private schools can't compete in the UIL, there are many who would do well if placed in a UIL classification of their enrollment size. Strake Jesuit should be UIL 4A, and they would be a force at the 4A level. Dallas Jesuit would be 4A these next two years, and they would do much better at that level. Several schools (FTW Nolan, Bishop Lynch, Liberty, Midland Christian, St. Pius, St. Mark's, Kinkaid, Dallas Christian, etc) would do well if they were placed according to their enrollment.

Some private schools recruit. Some public schools recruit. I'm willing to bet that there are public school state champions who broke many UIL rules to get the trophy they won. To put down all private schools with generalized statements is plain stupid and is offensive to schools like Jesuit, who follow the UIL rules perhaps better than any other UIL school.

[Fleeman93]

Again, I have no problem with the two jesuits that are currently in. I have a problem with the fact that they are in. I could go back and dig but I think someone this year said that a high profile player from Stratford was approached about playing for another school. As far as I know there is only one other school that he COULD have played for. Of course I have no first hand information of this but it would not surprise me one single bit if it did in fact happen. Let's just say that that it did happen and the person who approached the player had no direct association with the team, would that be a bad thing?

[The Lone Ranger]

Again, I have no problem with the two jesuits that are currently in. I have a problem with the fact that they are in. I could go back and dig but I think someone this year said that a high profile player from Stratford was approached about playing for another school. As far as I know there is only one other school that he COULD have played for. Of course I have no first hand information of this but it would not surprise me one single bit if it did in fact happen. Let's just say that that it did happen and the person who approached the player had no direct association with the team, would that be a bad thing?

Well it isn't against UIL rules.

Boosters, etc. can encourage students to attend schools as long as they don't receive any inducements I believe. Coaches and athletic personnel can't try to draw students to an athletic program, but they can talk about academics, I believe. Student-athletes can also try to draw players to their school, and there is nothing against the rules with that.

I don't think it is any different from people trying to talk families moving from another area to move to a certain public school district.

So unless it was a coach or unless the person who approached the kid offered money, it's completely legit.

[The Lone Ranger]

Jesuit is very happy to be in the UIL.

Jesuit's 20 TCIL State Titles do not compare to UIL 5A State Titles.

Although it is doubtful Jesuit will ever win a UIL 5A State Title, they will try and compete within the UIL rules.

Although most private schools can't compete in the UIL, there are many who would do well if placed in a UIL classification of their enrollment size. Strake Jesuit should be UIL 4A, and they would be a force at the 4A level. Dallas Jesuit would be 4A these next two years, and they would do much better at that level. Several schools (FTW Nolan, Bishop Lynch, Liberty, Midland Christian, St. Pius, St. Mark's, Kinkaid, Dallas Christian, etc) would do well if they were placed according to their enrollment.

Some private schools recruit. Some public schools recruit. I'm willing to bet that there are public school state champions who broke many UIL rules to get the trophy they won. To put down all private schools with generalized statements is plain stupid and is offensive to schools like Jesuit, who follow the UIL rules perhaps better than any other UIL school.

I didn't claim that they were equivalent to 5A titles. The TCIL didn't even claim that. The TCIL's top division was always 1 letter lower than the UIL's (AAA up to 1980, AAAA thereafter).

I do think that many Jesuit teams would have been competitive in the second-highest classification in the UIL. We always competed well with the best 5A had to offer as those were often the only games we could find, but usually we didn't win too often. Jesuit teams often won state titles with 3-7 or 4-6 records. But had we been playing local 4A teams, we could definitely have competed deep into the playoffs.

[RangerFan]

What bothers me is that when a public school underclassman transfers to another public school, rarely is it called recruiting. But, when a public school underclassman transfers to a private school, it MUST be recruiting.

I can only speak about Jesuit, a school I attended many years ago, a school I follow, and a school I happen to have many coaching and administrative friends at: they are happy to be in the UIL, and they plan on making sure they the UIL is happy with them. So far, the "arranged marriage" (not my quote, but I like it) has gone very well. And, if I am to believe Jesuit coaches, the schools they have competed against in UIL districts and in the playoffs have all learned to appreciate what Jesuit does with the athletes they have.

The UIL is perhaps the very best league in the USA for football at the high school level. Jesuit has been told to compete at its highest level. And, they are doing the best they can. And, in my opinion, they are doing so with huge disadvantages. I am wow'd every season by these over-achieving young men I watch on the field, knowing what they go through in school and knowing how challenging it must be for them.

[Trinity Alum]

What bothers me is that when a public school underclassman transfers to another public school, rarely is it called recruiting. But, when a public school underclassman transfers to a private school, it MUST be recruiting.

I can only speak about Jesuit, a school I attended many years ago, a school I follow, and a school I happen to have many coaching and administrative friends at: they are happy to be in the UIL, and they plan on making sure they the UIL is happy with them. So far, the "arranged marriage" (not my quote, but I like it) has gone very well. And, if I am to believe Jesuit coaches, the schools they have competed against in UIL districts and in the playoffs have all learned to appreciate what Jesuit does with the athletes they have.

The UIL is perhaps the very best league in the USA for football at the high school level. Jesuit has been told to compete at its highest level. And, they are doing the best they can. And, in my opinion, they are doing so with huge disadvantages. I am wow'd every season by these over-achieving young men I watch on the field, knowing what they go through in school and knowing how challenging it must be for them.

:rolleyes::eek::rolleyes::confused:

[SLCDad]

Some public schools recruit. I'm willing to bet that there are public school state champions who broke many UIL rules to get the trophy they won.

Please tell us more.

Name one.

[WOS87]

Please tell us more.

Name one.

Stamford 1959
Dallas Carter 1988

[GoOwls]

Woah! What? Slow down! Sunset has won a state championship!? :eek:

I find that hard to believe...

Hey, Sunset wasn't always in one of the crappiest parts of Dallas, it just got that way over the years.

Plano wasn't always a Prep town, you know, Highland Park wanna-be, it used to be one of the most hickey of hick farm towns ever. I remember as a kid driving to Plano for tractor parts with my dad or granddad. Plano, McKinney, Greenville, and Paris...the kings of tractor parts and cotton gins...those were the days. ;)

[Plano West Wolf]

Hey, Sunset wasn't always in one of the crappiest parts of Dallas, it just got that way over the years.

Plano wasn't always a Prep town, you know, Highland Park wanna-be, it used to be one of the most hickey of hick farm towns ever. I remember as a kid driving to Plano for tractor parts with my dad or granddad. Plano, McKinney, Greenville, and Paris...the kings of tractor parts and cotton gins...those were the days. ;)

I know, lol. I don't know much about Sunset or where it is located, but I am sure the area has heavily declined. I've seen older pictures of Plano and I agree with you. Just imagine, in good time, places like Celina and Farmersville will be just like Plano! ;)

[grayowl60]

Hey, Sunset wasn't always in one of the crappiest parts of Dallas, it just got that way over the years.

Plano wasn't always a Prep town, you know, Highland Park wanna-be, it used to be one of the most hickey of hick farm towns ever. I remember as a kid driving to Plano for tractor parts with my dad or granddad. Plano, McKinney, Greenville, and Paris...the kings of tractor parts and cotton gins...those were the days. ;)
Parts of Oak Cliff, not sure if its the Sunset area, are comming back strong. Young urbanites are buying and restoring older homes about the same age and look of the "M" streets, but for a hell of a lot less money.

[Plano West Wolf]

Parts of Oak Cliff, not sure if its the Sunset area, are comming back strong. Young urbanites are buying and restoring older homes about the same age and look of the "M" streets, but for a hell of a lot less money.

I looked it up and apparently its in North Oak Cliff.

[The Lone Ranger]

Sunset has the Rosemont and Kessler Park areas in its catchment area, but as a general rule people in those neighborhoods do not send their kids to Sunset.

Townview and Skyline get a lot of kids from the Sunset area. Bishop Dunne does as well.

DISD's neighborhood schools just don't have the reputation as being good schools to attract students who can afford to go elsewhere or know of magnet and charter options.

The Bison are incredibly likely to drop to 4A next alignment anyways, ending what I believe is 85 consecutive years of competing at the highest level of UIL competition--since their opening in 1926. Molina won't likely stay up either if they have to compete against Skyline and White only (but you never know). And the way DISD enrollment trends are going, combined with the growing number of large public high schools, DISD could have a 3A district all to itself--Roosevelt, Madison, Lincoln, A Maceo Smith, Hillcrest, Pinkston, Seagoville, Thomas Jefferson and Conrad all will have enrollments under 1210 next year as prjected by DISD and are steadily dropping. Madison is projected to have 525 students and the way they are going they could be a 2A school in 2010 (and very well could win state in both football and basketball).

So what is with DISD that almost all of their schools' enrollments are declining yet Dallas' population grows every day and WT White and Skyline high schools are tremendously overcrowded. Why doesn't DISD shift some elementary zones from White to TJ or Hillcrest? From Skyline to under-utilized BA?

DISD is really dropping the ball in my opinion.

[grayowl60]

Sunset has the Rosemont and Kessler Park areas in its catchment area, but as a general rule people in those neighborhoods do not send their kids to Sunset.

Townview and Skyline get a lot of kids from the Sunset area. Bishop Dunne does as well.

DISD's neighborhood schools just don't have the reputation as being good schools to attract students who can afford to go elsewhere or know of magnet and charter options.

The Bison are incredibly likely to drop to 4A next alignment anyways, ending what I believe is 85 consecutive years of competing at the highest level of UIL competition--since their opening in 1926. Molina won't likely stay up either if they have to compete against Skyline and White only (but you never know). And the way DISD enrollment trends are going, combined with the growing number of large public high schools, DISD could have a 3A district all to itself--Roosevelt, Madison, Lincoln, A Maceo Smith, Hillcrest, Pinkston, Seagoville, Thomas Jefferson and Conrad all will have enrollments under 1210 next year as prjected by DISD and are steadily dropping. Madison is projected to have 525 students and the way they are going they could be a 2A school in 2010 (and very well could win state in both football and basketball).

So what is with DISD that almost all of their schools' enrollments are declining yet Dallas' population grows every day and WT White and Skyline high schools are tremendously overcrowded. Why doesn't DISD shift some elementary zones from White to TJ or Hillcrest? From Skyline to under-utilized BA?

DISD is really dropping the ball in my opinion.
Interesting. I see a bunch if temp. class rooms being added to elementary schools in the DISD all over. Some of those schools looked almost vacant 10 years ago.This is caused by a large move in of hispanic students in the Oak Cliff and the Grove especially. Those kids will go to HS somewhere.

[Magellan]

Jesuit is very happy to be in the UIL.

Jesuit's 20 TCIL State Titles do not compare to UIL 5A State Titles.

Although it is doubtful Jesuit will ever win a UIL 5A State Title, they will try and compete within the UIL rules.

Although most private schools can't compete in the UIL, there are many who would do well if placed in a UIL classification of their enrollment size. Strake Jesuit should be UIL 4A, and they would be a force at the 4A level. Dallas Jesuit would be 4A these next two years, and they would do much better at that level. Several schools (FTW Nolan, Bishop Lynch, Liberty, Midland Christian, St. Pius, St. Mark's, Kinkaid, Dallas Christian, etc) would do well if they were placed according to their enrollment.

Some private schools recruit. Some public schools recruit. I'm willing to bet that there are public school state champions who broke many UIL rules to get the trophy they won. To put down all private schools with generalized statements is plain stupid and is offensive to schools like Jesuit, who follow the UIL rules perhaps better than any other UIL school.

We don't doubt that Jesuit and Strake will likely play by the rules of the UIL. And for that, they're doing better than a lot of the public schools in Texas.

[WOS87]

The Bison are incredibly likely to drop to 4A next alignment anyways, ending what I believe is 85 consecutive years of competing at the highest level of UIL competition--since their opening in 1926.

Sunset dropped down to 4A in the 2000-2001 Realignment then moved back up to 5A in 2002.

There are only 8 schools that I know of that have competed in the largest classification every year since 1920: Ft Worth Paschal (originally Ft Worth Central), Abilene High, Amarillo High, Tyler John Tyler, Galveston Ball, Austin SFA, Lubbock High and San Angelo Central.

[The Lone Ranger]

Sunset dropped down to 4A in the 2000-2001 Realignment then moved back up to 5A in 2002.

There are only 8 schools that I know of that have competed in the largest classification every year since 1920: Ft Worth Paschal (originally Ft Worth Central), Abilene High, Amarillo High, Tyler John Tyler, Galveston Ball, Austin SFA, Lubbock High and San Angelo Central.

I stand corrected.

[The Lone Ranger]

Sunset dropped down to 4A in the 2000-2001 Realignment then moved back up to 5A in 2002.

There are only 8 schools that I know of that have competed in the largest classification every year since 1920: Ft Worth Paschal (originally Ft Worth Central), Abilene High, Amarillo High, Tyler John Tyler, Galveston Ball, Austin SFA, Lubbock High and San Angelo Central.

John Tyler is officially a separate school from Tyler High School according to TISD. They only keep records from the late 50s, the same time as REL came around.

San Angelo might have done the same thing when the opened Lake View, or SAHS might have become SAC. I'm not certain.

[The Lone Ranger]

Interesting. I see a bunch if temp. class rooms being added to elementary schools in the DISD all over. Some of those schools looked almost vacant 10 years ago.This is caused by a large move in of hispanic students in the Oak Cliff and the Grove especially. Those kids will go to HS somewhere.

Yeah I remember those portables from back in elementaty school.

Part of the reason is the echo boom is tailing off. Right now the kids of those born in the 60s and 70s are going to school, an era with a low birth rate. The immigrant kids often don't stay in the same high school area all the way through as well.

And I don't see how it happened as I think DISD schools all seem terribly overcrowded, but except for Skyline and White every school is dropping. Almost all of the HSs and MSs are under-capacity. DISD is building new schools as well as replacing old ones instead of just doing major renovations.

Plus OC and the Grove all get split into different high schools. Not a single large school serves that area, so the kids get divied up by the boundary lines the DISD has chosen--which tend to favor small 4A enrollments.

[HebronHawk]

Interesting. I see a bunch if temp. class rooms being added to elementary schools in the DISD all over. Some of those schools looked almost vacant 10 years ago.This is caused by a large move in of hispanic students in the Oak Cliff and the Grove especially. Those kids will go to HS somewhere.

Probably moving in from Farmers Branch. RL Turner dropped to 4A this year.

[mojotrain]

What bothers me is that when a public school underclassman transfers to another public school, rarely is it called recruiting. But, when a public school underclassman transfers to a private school, it MUST be recruiting.

I can only speak about Jesuit, a school I attended many years ago, a school I follow, and a school I happen to have many coaching and administrative friends at: they are happy to be in the UIL, and they plan on making sure they the UIL is happy with them. So far, the "arranged marriage" (not my quote, but I like it) has gone very well. And, if I am to believe Jesuit coaches, the schools they have competed against in UIL districts and in the playoffs have all learned to appreciate what Jesuit does with the athletes they have.

The UIL is perhaps the very best league in the USA for football at the high school level. Jesuit has been told to compete at its highest level. And, they are doing the best they can. And, in my opinion, they are doing so with huge disadvantages. I am wow'd every season by these over-achieving young men I watch on the field, knowing what they go through in school and knowing how challenging it must be for them.

Before a player transfers to Jesuit must he or the school seek approval from the UIL?

[Magellan]

Before a player transfers to Jesuit must he or the school seek approval from the UIL?

Likely the same waiver that has to be signed for students who transfer from one public school to another.

[mojotrain]

Likely the same waiver that has to be signed for students who transfer from one public school to another.

Likely? Thats like 50 percent maybe. As in I'll likely get a pay check this month.