Defense

[lonny23]

I wanted to start a thread about defense. The best offensive teams need some semblance of defense to win games, but defense really keeps you in games. You can hang your hat on defense and sometimes your offense really picks you up and gives you a boost.

We rag on Judson not having the offense they need, but let me tell you that the defense is going to keep them in these games for the rest of the year. Judson was down 2-0 a few seconds into the Roosevelt game and TR spent most of the next quarter in Judson territory. The Rockets made 2 goal line stands in the first that could've put them down 16-0 if they hadn't buckled down. That's the kind of thing that a team can build around. I saw Chapel Hill win the 4A title in 1990 because they wouldn't give up points on defense and the Ravens won a Super Bowl a few years ago because of it, too.

Who out there has a defense that is legtimately shutting teams down that DO have an offense. I don't care to hear from the Clemens fans because I already know you have a good defense, but also one that very well might look better than you are because of the competition.

[Jtate862003]

I'd have to say lufkin or longview...

[lonny23]

I'd have to say lufkin or longview...
Just playing the law of averages so far:

Lufkin's defense takes off 45 cumulative points.
Clemens defense takes off 67 points.
Longview takes off 73 points.
Judson has the clubhouse lead at 82 points.

Who's going to beat the Rockets?

[pack0808]

What?? :confused: All i know is Lufkin is giving up about 115 yards per game and about 6 points per game, and a lot of that came with the 2nd string in the 3rd and 4th quarters. They have 12 sacks in 5 games but they are constantly in the qb's face. They hit ridiculously hard!! :eek: They have not had a true test yet but i like their chances when they do. This defense is loaded with div1a talent and speed!! They are definitely one of the best if not the best in my opinion. That is if they stay healthy of course.

[ktrain]

Just playing the law of averages so far:

Lufkin's defense takes off 45 cumulative points.
Clemens defense takes off 67 points.
Longview takes off 73 points.
Judson has the clubhouse lead at 82 points.

Who's going to beat the Rockets?

How are you calculating the numbers??

[pack0808]

How are you calculating the numbers??


There is no telling with lonny but i guarantee the way he decided to twist the numbers favors Judson somehow. ;)

[PackAttack2005]

What formula are you using to acquire those numbers?

Are you talking about scoring defense? Please explain.

[KT2000]

Our president calls that "fuzzy math."

:D

[pack0808]

I am sorry Lufkin has given up 7.2 points a game not 6. I know at least 3 scores came after a offensive turnover deep in the Lufkin's territory and the 2nd string has given up a couple td's at least!! The only team that has had a sustained lengthy drive for a td vs Lufkin 1st string d is Conroe. It was on the 1st series and that was all they scored for the rest of the game!!

Here is my opinion on who is the best in the state on defense!! I am sure i am missing somebody??

1. Lufkin
2. Westfield
3. Katy
4. NS
5. Longview
6. The Woodlands
7. Clemens
8. Judson
9. Plano
10. Trinity

[pack0808]

Garland might be a top 10 defense also??

[toonman]

The old saying that "offense wins games and defense wins championships" may be true of the NFL, but not in High School. I would take a great high school offense to win over a great high school defense. Great offensive systems are easier to install than great defensive schemes. In my opinion, it much harder for high school boys to learn the nuances and intricacies of defending, such reading routes, etc. Offense playing maturity comes at an earlier age than defensive playing maturity. It is always much harder to defend, because you have to get it right every time, or you give up the score or first down. On offense you have 4 opportunities to make a play.

Give me the high powered offense of SLC or ET and I will beat your "great defense" every time.

[bubbacoach]

Toonman you just showed a lack of football knowledge. Every year the defenses are way ahead of the offenses at the beginning of the year. This is due to the fact that most defenses are gap control and rely on aggressivness. Where an offense relies on 11 different guys doing a assigned duty to make a play successful. And this rarely happens. Remember 95% of all offensive plays are designed to go all the way every time. Why don't they? Because there is always a mistake made by at least one offensive player. The law of average says that a defense will have to stop the offense more often than not. Otherwise you would always see scores of 80 -79. i could explain it in great detail, but I do not think you would understand.

[toonman]

Toonman you just showed a lack of football knowledge. Every year the defenses are way ahead of the offenses at the beginning of the year. This is due to the fact that most defenses are gap control and rely on aggressivness. Where an offense relies on 11 different guys doing a assigned duty to make a play successful. And this rarely happens. Remember 95% of all offensive plays are designed to go all the way every time. Why don't they? Because there is always a mistake made by at least one offensive player. The law of average says that a defense will have to stop the offense more often than not. Otherwise you would always see scores of 80 -79. i could explain it in great detail, but I do not think you would understand.

Coach - I accept your greater knowledge of the game and I do not pretend to be an expert, but I did use the word Great. The reason we do not see 80 points out there in each and every game, is because there are not that many great offenses. Is it coincidence that the 2 teams I have mentioned; SLC and ET are averaging 50 points a game and these 2 schools do have Great offenses.

[lonny23]

There is no telling with lonny but i guarantee the way he decided to twist the numbers favors Judson somehow. ;)
I don't twist numbers. I get ideas and do research and publish what I find. I don't hide stuff because it doesn't say what I want it to say.

My numbers on this thread are simple. I see how many points each team gives up in a particular game and then how many points that team averages for the season and assign a point value. If Lufkin holds Nacogdoches to 7 points and the Dragons average 18/game, I give Lufkin a +11 and so forth. I added up the numbers for the 4 teams that were mentioned and Judson did the best job holding teams under their averages. Lufkin hasn't played teams that score points. I can't worry about 2nd teamers because every team had them in the game to give up points.

[lonny23]

I am sorry Lufkin has given up 7.2 points a game not 6. I know at least 3 scores came after a offensive turnover deep in the Lufkin's territory and the 2nd string has given up a couple td's at least!! The only team that has had a sustained lengthy drive for a td vs Lufkin 1st string d is Conroe. It was on the 1st series and that was all they scored for the rest of the game!!

Here is my opinion on who is the best in the state on defense!! I am sure i am missing somebody??

1. Lufkin
2. Westfield
3. Katy
4. NS
5. Longview
6. The Woodlands
7. Clemens
8. Judson
9. Plano
10. Trinity
OK, I'll run the numbers for these 10 teams and Garland.

[ktchamp97]

I don't twist numbers. I get ideas and do research and publish what I find. I don't hide stuff because it doesn't say what I want it to say.

My numbers on this thread are simple. I see how many points each team gives up in a particular game and then how many points that team averages for the season and assign a point value. If Lufkin holds Nacogdoches to 7 points and the Dragons average 18/game, I give Lufkin a +11 and so forth. I added up the numbers for the 4 teams that were mentioned and Judson did the best job holding teams under their averages. Lufkin hasn't played teams that score points. I can't worry about 2nd teamers because every team had them in the game to give up points.

Lonny,

I like your approach...it somewhat normalizes the data, but one thing that would need to be accounted for to be even more accurate would be the amount of points that your opponents - opponents allow. For example, say CC Carroll is averaging 45 points per game...but, against teams that allow 31 points per game. Lufkin (allowing 7 ppg) comes along and shuts them out...do they deserve a +45?

Like I said, your approach is great...it's much better than just looking at the raw data, but it's still not exactly conclusive (then again, what would be?). I enjoy your work...keep it coming.

[bubbacoach]

Coach - I accept your greater knowledge of the game and I do not pretend to be an expert, but I did use the word Great. The reason we do not see 80 points out there in each and every game, is because there are not that many great offenses. Is it coincidence that the 2 teams I have mentioned; SLC and ET are averaging 50 points a game and these 2 schools do have Great offenses.
Toonman, I ain't trying to dog you. Have either teams played a good defensive team that has a good offense. To beat a great oofensive team you must have a good defense as well as a good ball control offense. If you have a good offense that can control the ball for 27 to 30 minutes a game with long drives that result in about 28 points and have a defense with good speed up front and a secondary that can run multiple coverages out of the same look then you have a chance. You have to be able to bluff and or stem after the call comes in from the side against SLC. Make them think you are in one thing and actually be running another. A Team like SLC will come out in a formation and get you to line up in it. Then they will look for the call from the side to call a play according to the defensive allignment. If you have intelligent defensive players and a good scouting report you can frustrate them, possibly make them take some timeouts, or get a delay called on them, just by switching your allignment after they have made their call at the line of scrimmage. I mean like lining up in a 26 look with cover 20 behind it everytime and then stemming into a weak eagle ma press after the play has been called. But, the bottom line is you have to have the athletes the other team has to match up.

[lonny23]

Here are the no-fooling numbers and per game averages since some teams have played less games.

1. The Woodlands 92 points below average and 18 per game
2. Longview 73 and 15
3. Judson 82 and 14
4. North Shore 80 and 13
5. Plano 79 and 13
6. Clemens 67 and 11
7. Lufkin 45 and 9
8. SLC 45 and 8
9. Katy 40 and 8
10. Westfield 32 and 8
11. Trinity 26 and 4
12. Garland 25 and 4

Somebody else out there might have better numbers, but this is what I've been given so far. Notice SLC has played good offenses and will naturally give up some points. The numbers can be skewed by one good game and one bad game, but this is a basis to work from.

[lonny23]

Lonny,

I like your approach...it somewhat normalizes the data, but one thing that would need to be accounted for to be even more accurate would be the amount of points that your opponents - opponents allow. For example, say CC Carroll is averaging 45 points per game...but, against teams that allow 31 points per game. Lufkin (allowing 7 ppg) comes along and shuts them out...do they deserve a +45?

Like I said, your approach is great...it's much better than just looking at the raw data, but it's still not exactly conclusive (then again, what would be?). I enjoy your work...keep it coming.
You're turning me into the BCS with a strength of schedule element that's composed of your opponents record and your opponents opponents. Then again, some say I'm BS! :D

I would love to run the numbers on what each team's opponents had to face, but don't have the time with me doing all the math myself. It would be much easier if I had a computer program doing the math.

[dragonsdaddy]

that theory of defenses being ahead of offenses early in the seasons doesn't work as well as it used to. with spring training and 7on7 seasons basically extending football yearround, teams like slc don't have the risk of losing their edge, because they never stop playing.

a great defensive team will someday work the tricks in the spread to slow it down on a regular basis. or the rule-makers will change something to slow it down, but it will require a team putting their best eleven guys on defense. since slc's best players generally go to offense, the other team better do the opposite to stop them. defense is a much harder part of football to get a handle on. back in the day, when it was eleven v eleven and a scrum most every play, it didn't require much but a desire to hit the other guy to be a defensive player. todays intricate offenses and with the use of the whole field, a defensive scheme is more difficult to master than offense. and since every offense is a little to a lot different, every week requires relearning thus mistakes. since the offense can and does know in advance where the routes and running lanes are supposed to be, and the defense has to react and respond, it is just harder to do.

[lonny23]

that theory of defenses being ahead of offenses early in the seasons doesn't work as well as it used to. with spring training and 7on7 seasons basically extending football yearround, teams like slc don't have the risk of losing their edge, because they never stop playing.

a great defensive team will someday work the tricks in the spread to slow it down on a regular basis. or the rule-makers will change something to slow it down, but it will require a team putting their best eleven guys on defense. since slc's best players generally go to offense, the other team better do the opposite to stop them. defense is a much harder part of football to get a handle on. back in the day, when it was eleven v eleven and a scrum most every play, it didn't require much but a desire to hit the other guy to be a defensive player. todays intricate offenses and with the use of the whole field, a defensive scheme is more difficult to master than offense. and since every offense is a little to a lot different, every week requires relearning thus mistakes. since the offense can and does know in advance where the routes and running lanes are supposed to be, and the defense has to react and respond, it is just harder to do.
Therein lies why you put your better athletes on defense. It's a lot harder to react than to act.

[DragonFan]

Using your formula for Defense then SLC defense is taking off 62 points! That would put SLC's defense above Lufkins!

SLC has played some great offenses and has shut them all down! Maybe the SLC defense will get some creidit for the success of the Dragons.

[ktchamp97]

You're turning me into the BCS with a strength of schedule element that's composed of your opponents record and your opponents opponents. Then again, some say I'm BS! :D

I would love to run the numbers on what each team's opponents had to face, but don't have the time with me doing all the math myself. It would be much easier if I had a computer program doing the math.

I may just have to run the numbers myself...you've got me curious.

Your updated Top 10 list is very interesting and quite telling, I think. The Woodlands really does have a great defense, but their offensive struggles are baffling...they have very good skill personnel, but yet it's just not clicking...if it ever does, they could really surprise some folks.

Carroll's defense is much maligned, but I've always felt they were way better than they were given credit for, and the LDI (Lonny Defensive Index) seems to support that. Considering how quickly they score and how much time their defense is on the field...it's really quite impressive.

[lonny23]

Using your formula for Defense then SLC defense is taking off 62 points! That would put SLC's defense above Lufkins!

SLC has played some great offenses and has shut them all down! Maybe the SLC defense will get some creidit for the success of the Dragons.
I said 45 points, which is the same as Lufkin, but the Panthers have played 1 fewer game and that makes their defense better.

[bubbacoach]

Their is no argueing with someone that only has a very basic knowledge of the game. You probably do not know what I mean when I say a defense needs to stem. You are probably the guy that thinks the coach is a moron when a play works and a genius when it does not. I bet your son is probably a backup and does not even get to play. Can you tell me what SLC bases their defense out of?

[lonny23]

I may just have to run the numbers myself...you've got me curious.

Your updated Top 10 list is very interesting and quite telling, I think. The Woodlands really does have a great defense, but their offensive struggles are baffling...they have very good skill personnel, but yet it's just not clicking...if it ever does, they could really surprise some folks.

Carroll's defense is much maligned, but I've always felt they were way better than they were given credit for, and the LDI (Lonny Defensive Index) seems to support that. Considering how quickly they score and how much time their defense is on the field...it's really quite impressive.
The 2 biggest disclaimers in the list of 12 teams are The Woodlands and Garland. The Owls lost 30 points when they gave up 56 to DeSoto and The Highlanders got 40 points off of holding North Shore to 7.

[Tut]

Give me the high powered offense of SLC or ET and I will beat your "great defense" every time.
2003 - Katy 16 SLC 15
Defense with possession offense wins too.

[lonny23]

I have to bump Longview up on the list. They've only played 5 games against Texas teams.

[dragonsdaddy]

Their is no argueing with someone that only has a very basic knowledge of the game. You probably do not know what I mean when I say a defense needs to stem. You are probably the guy that thinks the coach is a moron when a play works and a genius when it does not. I bet your son is probably a backup and does not even get to play. Can you tell me what SLC bases their defense out of?
bubba, if you're talking to me, you are right- one was a three time all-american cb and another is a starting collegiate wr. the other is being red-shirted. slc runs a basic 4-3. go back to your cave.

[bubbacoach]

We all live in a yellow submarine, Whatever you want to make up is fine by me. You must be from the most athletic family in the world.

[lonny23]

OK, another long post. This time I'll let you know how much each team's opponents average per game scoring:

Clemens vs.
Waco 12
Roosevelt 22
Taylor 20 (4A)
Austin 19
Highlands 13
Jefferson 7

Judson vs.
L Nixon 28
C Cove 36
Pflugerville 33
SA Lee 11
S Valley 27
Roosevelt 22

Longview vs.
Marshall 25 (4A)
Lake Highlands 26
Mesquite 22
M Horn 34
T Lee 17
Louisiana not included

Lufkin vs.
A Eisenhower 17
PA Memorial 9
Nacogdoches 29 (4A)
Conroe 15
Conroe Oak Ridge 11

Westfield vs.
Cy Falls 18
A Taylor 11
H Memorial 15
B Lee 20

Katy vs.
Woodlands 14
J Village 14
Humble 24
A Hastings 15
Mayde Creek 19

North Shore vs.
Elsik 19
A Hastings 15
Woodlands 14
LaPorte 35
P Dobie 24
P Sam Rayburn 14

Woodlands vs.
Katy 40
North Shore 47
Humble 24
Klein 21
K Forest 27

Plano vs.
Rowlett 32
L Centennial 15
F Ridge 23
Lewisville 11
P West 26
Allen 28

E Trinity vs.
DeSoto 26
M Lee 26
T Lee 17
Coppell 19
I Nimitz 21
G Prairie 10

Garland vs.
P East 16
DeSoto 26
Ennis 32 (4A)
Carter 31
N Forest 10
S Garland 21

SLC vs.
M Lee 26
Coppell 19
P East 16
F Ridge 23
C Heritage 39
Haltom 30

[StormingCowboy]

I wanted to start a thread about defense. The best offensive teams need some semblance of defense to win games, but defense really keeps you in games. You can hang your hat on defense and sometimes your offense really picks you up and gives you a boost.

We rag on Judson not having the offense they need, but let me tell you that the defense is going to keep them in these games for the rest of the year. Judson was down 2-0 a few seconds into the Roosevelt game and TR spent most of the next quarter in Judson territory. The Rockets made 2 goal line stands in the first that could've put them down 16-0 if they hadn't buckled down. That's the kind of thing that a team can build around. I saw Chapel Hill win the 4A title in 1990 because they wouldn't give up points on defense and the Ravens won a Super Bowl a few years ago because of it, too.

Who out there has a defense that is legtimately shutting teams down that DO have an offense. I don't care to hear from the Clemens fans because I already know you have a good defense, but also one that very well might look better than you are because of the competition.


Dallas Carter gives up 9.8 ppg and apprx 190 ypg.

[dragonsdaddy]

you may be a slinger, and assume everyone else is too. my wife was a heck of an athlete, tyvm.

[DragonFan]

Lonnie,

Lets see if I get your Index properly.

I add all the points that an oppents has scored - the game against SLC. Divide that number by the number of games played against everybody but SLc. I take that number and subtract the number of points that the team scored against SLC giving the number of points under/over the average points per game. With that formula I have the following:


Team Avg ppg Scored on SLC LDI
Midland Lee 25 25 0
Coppell 18 24 -6
Plano 20 0 20
Fossil Ridge 23 24 -1
CHHS 41 28 13
Haltom 35 7 28

Total LDI 54

The 7 points that Haltom scored was on an interception return for a TD so the LDI could go up 7 Points to 61.

[Fleeman93]

I'm working on a database now that will do all of the math for you. Data input will be a pain, but should give some good results. Still in the design phase which is most important to a good database.

[lonny23]

Lonnie,

Lets see if I get your Index properly.

I add all the points that an oppents has scored - the game against SLC. Divide that number by the number of games played against everybody but SLc. I take that number and subtract the number of points that the team scored against SLC giving the number of points under/over the average points per game. With that formula I have the following:


Team Avg ppg Scored on SLC LDI
Midland Lee 25 25 0
Coppell 18 24 -6
Plano 20 0 20
Fossil Ridge 23 24 -1
CHHS 41 28 13
Haltom 35 7 28

Total LDI 54

The 7 points that Haltom scored was on an interception return for a TD so the LDI could go up 7 Points to 61.
I don't do anything with special teams points. Returns and safeties count against you and it doesn't matter if you give the ball up on your own 1. It was a basic analysis and there's no way I can account for how many points the backups give up either. Some teams give up less yards than others. I don't take out any scores. I just take what each team averages against all opponents and usually have a positive number when I subtract what SLC and whoever else gave up. You gain points in some games and lose in others.

SLC this year:
M Lee +1
Coppell -5
P East +16
F Ridge -1
C Heritage +11
Haltom +23

[DragonFan]

Lonnie,

For your LDI to work you must not count the game that the team played agiant the team you your trying to calculate the LDI for. That means that if you are calculating the LDI for SLC you cannot take the points scored on SLC by Haltom into account for Haltoms Avg Points per game. If SLC's defense is good it would schew the Avg Points per game number way down and not give you the true number of points that Haltom scores on other opponents. That would be the only change I would make to the LDI or as I call it the MLDI, or Modified Lonnie Defensive Index.

[dragonsdaddy]

and chhs had a 5 yd drive after the ref brainfarct too, but those things happen to everyone.

[bubbacoach]

you may be a slinger, and assume everyone else is too. my wife was a heck of an athlete, tyvm.
I am sorry I do not know what a slinger is. I'll bet if your son's are the athletes you claim them to be they got it from their momma.

[BigArab]

This fuzzy math makes my head hurt.

[lonny23]

Dallas Carter gives up 9.8 ppg and apprx 190 ypg.
OK, here is Carter, but they have the ringer known as a 4A team, too! :mad:

A Sam Houston -3
Kimball +34
A Lamar +16
Garland +16
Adams +1
Molina +10

They're a +74 with everybody, but +40 if you leave out Kimball.

[dragonsdaddy]

I am sorry I do not know what a slinger is. I'll bet if your son's are the athletes you claim them to be they got it from their momma.
thanks and i bet your wife knows more about coaching than you too, for whatever that's worth. bull-slinging is a time horored tradition amongst know it alls where i come from.

[bubbacoach]

My wife is actually a very good coach and was really an all american volleyball player in college. If not for injuries she might have played in the olympics. But I do not think she is as good a coach as I am. I got state championships, district championships, city championships, etc....

[lonny23]

Lonnie,

For your LDI to work you must not count the game that the team played agiant the team you your trying to calculate the LDI for. That means that if you are calculating the LDI for SLC you cannot take the points scored on SLC by Haltom into account for Haltoms Avg Points per game. If SLC's defense is good it would schew the Avg Points per game number way down and not give you the true number of points that Haltom scores on other opponents. That would be the only change I would make to the LDI or as I call it the MLDI, or Modified Lonnie Defensive Index.
You're 100% right on that, but I don't want to take the time to refigure everything! Like I said, I wanted to just keep it simple! :D

Theoretically, we could have teams that play good defensive teams and don't score and then it hurts the teams averages in our comparison. Pflugerville has been getting over 40 a game, but they didn't do it against SV and Judson and only average 33 overall.

[DragonFan]

There are studies that suggest that the Athleticism is passed from the Mothers side not the Fathers. I know my son is a very good athelete and I can trace it back through my wifes side. She had a grandfather who played for the Reds, an uncle who played pro baseball until he hurt his neck, and an uncle who played pro Golf. I played Division 1 football but was a backup who made a few playes. So I would say my son got his athleticism from both sides but heavily wieghted by my wifes side.

[lonny23]

There are studies that suggest that the Athleticism is passed from the Mothers side not the Fathers. I know my son is a very good athelete and I can trace it back through my wifes side. She had a grandfather who played for the Reds, an uncle who played pro baseball until he hurt his neck, and an uncle who played pro Golf. I played Division 1 football but was a backup who made a few playes. So I would say my son got his athleticism from both sides but heavily wieghted by my wifes side.
That sure isn't the case in my family. I'm not the greatest athlete, but my wife has no athleticism. My daughther is young and has good athleticism, but it all has to be from me!

[pack0808]

I am sorry I do not know what a slinger is. I'll bet if your son's are the athletes you claim them to be they got it from their momma.


Bubba i have met d-daddy aka "doc" and he is not lying. He is a very respectful poster!! Just because he made a statement concerning football you go after him personally?? Why?? You did the same with toonman?? Trust me about d-daddy he is telling the truth. All of the SLC poster's know him personally and all could vouch for him. Either way, he has nothing to prove to you but i just thought i would speak up for him. I actually agree with a lot of your points but there is no need to get personal with somebody if they disagree with you??


Lonny, Although you are a #'s man it does not reflect all of which defense is better. There are so many other factors. Strength of schedule, Did a team give up scores after turning the ball over deep in their own territory or did they give up scores on special teams did the offense turn the ball over for scores by throwing interceptions for td's or fumble's for td's?? Nothing to do with the defense!! Time of posession is huge also. A team that has an offense that holds on to the ball a lot longer then others is very very beneficial to the defense's #'s. Their defenses are much more rested and they are on the field less so they give up less yards. It only makes sense. A team like Katy has great ball control and this year's Lufkin team is hit or miss. When they score they score quickly and when they do not a lot of the times they are 3 and out. The defense has been on the field a lot and the numbers are still amazing. Lufkin has not played a good offense yet!! There are just too many numbers and factors involved it is hard to get a very accurate picture right now. At the end of the season we will have a better idea but nothing is pure. A team can have a great defense and you might not know it early because their numbers can be skewed due to the thing's i listed. You usually get a much clearer picture after more games are played and the #'s tend to even out. Either way, I think we are very close with the teams we are naming on who is the best. It is impossible to tell right now which exact one is!!

[mad_fan]

I hate some of the stuff I read here but that's the way it is. I have two on my blocked list, but see their posts when they are quoted. I try not to pay attention to some posters because they add nothing to the discuss, what to sound like they're talking down at you, or are just offensive people in most posts. I say pick and choose who you respond to is the best way to handle things many times. A lot of other people will know why there is no response. Just a thought. :)

[bubbacoach]

Bubba i have met d-daddy aka "doc" and he is not lying. He is a very respectful poster!! Just because he made a statement concerning football you go after him personally?? Why?? You did the same with toonman?? Trust me about d-daddy he is telling the truth. All of the SLC poster's know him personally and all could vouch for him. Either way, he has nothing to prove to you but i just thought i would speak up for him. I actually agree with a lot of your points but there is no need to get personal with somebody if they disagree with you??


Lonny, Although you are a #'s man it does not reflect all of which defense is better. There are so many other factors. Strength of schedule, Did a team give up scores after turning the ball over deep in their own territory or did they give up scores on special teams did the offense turn the ball over for scores by throwing interceptions for td's or fumble's for td's?? Nothing to do with the defense!! Time of posession is huge also. A team that has an offense that holds on to the ball a lot longer then others is very very beneficial to the defense's #'s. Their defenses are much more rested and they are on the field less so they give up less yards. It only makes sense. A team like Katy has great ball control and this year's Lufkin team is hit or miss. When they score they score quickly and when they do not a lot of the times they are 3 and out. The defense has been on the field a lot and the numbers are still amazing. Lufkin has not played a good offense yet!! There are just too many numbers and factors involved it is hard to get a very accurate picture right now. At the end of the season we will have a better idea but nothing is pure. A team can have a great defense and you might not know it early because their numbers can be skewed due to the thing's i listed. You usually get a much clearer picture after more games are played and the #'s tend to even out. Either way, I think we are very close with the teams we are naming on who is the best. It is impossible to tell right now which exact one is!!
If you read I only got personal after he got personal

[pack0808]

If you read I only got personal after he got personal


If that is true i understand but that sure does not sound like d-daddy?? I know i can become a severe smart A also when provoked so i am not claiming to be an angel. ;)

[dragonsdaddy]

Their is no argueing with someone that only has a very basic knowledge of the game. You probably do not know what I mean when I say a defense needs to stem. You are probably the guy that thinks the coach is a moron when a play works and a genius when it does not. I bet your son is probably a backup and does not even get to play. Can you tell me what SLC bases their defense out of?
this was your first response to my general remarks about defense vs offense. don't know how you took my analysis personally, but it wasn't aimed at you as i didn't even know you had made any comments on the subject. find my quote in the first post and get back to us.

[bubbacoach]

I hate some of the stuff I read here but that's the way it is. I have two on my blocked list, but see their posts when they are quoted. I try not to pay attention to some posters because they add nothing to the discuss, what to sound like they're talking down at you, or are just offensive people in most posts. I say pick and choose who you respond to is the best way to handle things many times. A lot of other people will know why there is no response. Just a thought. :)
I only get personnal when people get personnal with me. Otherwise I just speak what I know is the truth in the coaching world. I know the majority of the people on this website have never been coaches and do not know the true in and outs of the game. Secondly, most of the people on this website do not know how hard coaches and players work to win a state championship. It is very hard and it takes special people to win a state title. Thirdly, I don't understand nor care why "Doc" came at me like he did, but I responded and that is that. I have never said a negative thing about the SLC team or its backers until he came at me. I just stated how I think they needed to be defended to be beaten. The thing that I see through film and seeing SLC in person, is they play alot of athletic teams that make mistakes due to a lack of discipline. Last year when they played SV in the finals, ateam with great discipline but not the athletes that some of the other teams they play, SV gave them a run. If I offend someone, then so be it. I speak on what I know, when someone attacks I attack back. I do not mind someone disagreeing with me, but when they attack my knowledge are my person I will respond. Otherwise, whatever.

[bubbacoach]

Daddy, I apoligize to you, but I felt you were questioning my knowledge of the game.

[dragonsdaddy]

We all live in a yellow submarine, Whatever you want to make up is fine by me. You must be from the most athletic family in the world.
and here's your response to my honest answers to your questioning me, my kids, and my honesty. so far nothing has been mentioned about you or whether you know anything or not. seems getting personal was on your end long before anyone else/me said anything about you. find discrepancies and i'll apologize.

[bubbacoach]

and here's your response to my honest answers to your questioning me, my kids, and my honesty. so far nothing has been mentioned about you or whether you know anything or not. seems getting personal was on your end long before anyone else/me said anything about you. find discrepancies and i'll apologize.
I have never asked for an apology, not do I expect one. I gave one for what it is worth. Take it or leave it.

[pack0808]

That is the point!! When did he attack you first?? I did not see a personal attack?? You are right though whatever!! I am sure you are a true genius of the game and we all have no clue because we chose another profession in life. :rolleyes: True you probably know a lot more of the details of the game and the in and outs of the game like you say but that does not make everybody else a moron if they disagree with you. Many of us have played the game and have been following the game for a long time and actually can make decent and logical points when discussing football and our teams. So are you saying nobody can question or disagree with the President because they have never been a president before etc etc

[pack0808]

Daddy, I apoligize to you, but I felt you were questioning my knowledge of the game.


That is good of you let's just move on!! Just a misunderstanding i assume??

[bubbacoach]

That is the point!! When did he attack you first?? I did not see a personal attack?? You are right though whatever!! I am sure you are a true genius of the game and we all have no clue because we chose another profession in life. :rolleyes: True you probably know a lot more of the details of the game and the in and outs of the game like you say but that does not make everybody else a moron if they disagree with you. Many of us have played the game and have been following the game for a long time and actually can make decent and logical points when discussing football and our teams. So are you saying nobody can question or disagree with the President because they have never been a president before etc etc
Your jumping into someon elses conversation. i know nothing about you and care nothing about you. If you want to run it, let's run it otherwise mind your own business.

[pack0808]

Hey when you attack a person i consider a friend personally for absolutely no reason I will make it my business everytime. I could care less about you and know nothing about you either wuppededoo!! LOL Either way i am done!!

[dragonsdaddy]

i have a pretty well founded "opinion" of both defensive and offensive scheming. i don't know that there is anything more than opinions on how to defend any offense, or where players should be played. established and successful coaches all over the state are constantly trying new wrinkles and looking for edges and asking others opinions. if you have the secret to shutting down the spread as teams like slc runs it, you need to patent it and make a fortune. the dc's i've talked to haven't yet come up with much.

[mad_fan]

Lonny, what the hell happened to your thread?

"Most misunderstood" would make for a good sig. :D I'd do it in Orange

[bubbacoach]

i have a pretty well founded "opinion" of both defensive and offensive scheming. i don't know that there is anything more than opinions on how to defend any offense, or where players should be played. established and successful coaches all over the state are constantly trying new wrinkles and looking for edges and asking others opinions. if you have the secret to shutting down the spread as teams like slc runs it, you need to patent it and make a fortune. the dc's i've talked to haven't yet come up with much.
Well I do have my opinion on how to stop the spread. Does it work, yes against teams that aren't as talented as SLC. Would it work against SLC, might with the right athletes with good discipline. The spread is just another offense just like the wishbone, wing T, I, etc... They have all been solved and so will spread. And until then the best of luck to SLC. i have watched them in person and actually was more impressed with their Defense than their offense. Their Defense was aggressive and had great team speed. I just think the offense can be stopped with the right personell.

[pack0808]

Well I do have my opinion on how to stop the spread. Does it work, yes against teams that aren't as talented as SLC. Would it work against SLC, might with the right athletes with good discipline. The spread is just another offense just like the wishbone, wing T, I, etc... They have all been solved and so will spread. And until then the best of luck to SLC. i have watched them in person and actually was more impressed with their Defense than their offense. Their Defense was aggressive and had great team speed. I just think the offense can be stopped with the right personell.


I agree with that statement!!

[dragonsdaddy]

[
a great defensive team will someday work the tricks in the spread to slow it down on a regular basis. or the rule-makers will change something to slow it down, but it will require a team putting their best eleven guys on defense. since slc's best players generally go to offense, the other team better do the opposite to stop them. .[/QUOTE]
i think we agree, as i typed first at the start of this thread.

[Fleeman93]

Katy figured it out and beat it. I would say it is pretty much like coach said as far as having the right combination of athletes and discipline. If the spread is so great then why isn't everyone at the college and professional level running it? Very simple answer is team speed and discipline. If you have those two things you can shut the spread down.

[pack0808]

Katy figured it out and beat it. I would say it is pretty much like coach said as far as having the right combination of athletes and discipline. If the spread is so great then why isn't everyone at the college and professional level running it? Very simple answer is team speed and discipline. If you have those two things you can shut the spread down.


Very true statement. Other then Katy only samhouston?? really shut SLC down in 3 years even though they lost. No NFL teams run it hardly at all!! The Houston Oilers ran a very similar offense to the spread in the run n shoot but the NFL defense's caught up with it. SLC just runs the spread to perfection for the most part. I have seen many horrid hs offenses using the spread. It takes the right personnel and the right talent to do it. It takes the right personnel and the right talent to stop an offense like SLC.

[Fleeman93]

I still say that part of the reason that I don't think SLC is as good this year as they were last year is because of Luna. I don't care what back they put in that system he will NEVER be as good as Luna. If you could "make" the perfect back for the spread he would end up looking just like Luna.

[dragonfootballfan]

Katy figured it out and beat it. I would say it is pretty much like coach said as far as having the right combination of athletes and discipline. If the spread is so great then why isn't everyone at the college and professional level running it? Very simple answer is team speed and discipline. If you have those two things you can shut the spread down.
Katy beat it with the correct personnel. Many teams have looked at how Katy stopped them and many teams tried the same strategy. All of those teams have failed.

[Oiler99]

i knows this is biased becuase the lack of quality opponents but Pearland has taken away 86 through 6 on the LDI averagin 14.3 less per game...

[dragonsdaddy]

fleeman, i can't help but agree with you. luna had all the tools to help the spread run well. his blocking was impeccable and he brought a certain meanness to the position that a blitzing lb or a hapless safety came to respect. he also had no ego and was willing to do whatever was asked of him. his 4 fumbles in 48 games was amazing and he never dropped a pass. few coaches get a chance to have the perfect position player, but all knowledgeable fans recognize one when they see him.

all that being said, wait until you get an eyeful of tre newton this week. he can scoot, and has made great strides each week. having grown up in the dodge system from the 5th grade on, he knows his role and as if he can catch some growth(good chance) he'll be a major player for the next 2 1/2 years. dc's are not going to relish defending him as well as the pass and riley's wheels next year and the next.

[green wave]

longview is scoring 39pts a game and only giving up 9 pts a game . well those are the averages.

[DragonFan]

I believe this years version of the SLC Dragons is better than last years. I make this bold statement based on stats to date. The SLC team is way ahead of where it was at this time last year in terms of points and yards per game.

Last year Daniel had a tendency to lock on to a player who was "hot" and always look to get the ball to him. This year, I think McElroy is using everyone on the team better than Daniel did last year.

This years defense is much better than last year and last years won several games for the Dragons. This years defense has one shutout and a virtual shutout (where the 7 points actually came from an intercepted pass and run for a TD against the offense).

Newton is no Luna, but by the same token Luna is no Tre! They are different but both meshed perfectly with the team. SLC is first and formost a collection of unselfish players who play for each other. Just plug in the parts and let the machine continue to roll!

[lonny23]

Bubba i have met d-daddy aka "doc" and he is not lying. He is a very respectful poster!! Just because he made a statement concerning football you go after him personally?? Why?? You did the same with toonman?? Trust me about d-daddy he is telling the truth. All of the SLC poster's know him personally and all could vouch for him. Either way, he has nothing to prove to you but i just thought i would speak up for him. I actually agree with a lot of your points but there is no need to get personal with somebody if they disagree with you??


Lonny, Although you are a #'s man it does not reflect all of which defense is better. There are so many other factors. Strength of schedule, Did a team give up scores after turning the ball over deep in their own territory or did they give up scores on special teams did the offense turn the ball over for scores by throwing interceptions for td's or fumble's for td's?? Nothing to do with the defense!! Time of posession is huge also. A team that has an offense that holds on to the ball a lot longer then others is very very beneficial to the defense's #'s. Their defenses are much more rested and they are on the field less so they give up less yards. It only makes sense. A team like Katy has great ball control and this year's Lufkin team is hit or miss. When they score they score quickly and when they do not a lot of the times they are 3 and out. The defense has been on the field a lot and the numbers are still amazing. Lufkin has not played a good offense yet!! There are just too many numbers and factors involved it is hard to get a very accurate picture right now. At the end of the season we will have a better idea but nothing is pure. A team can have a great defense and you might not know it early because their numbers can be skewed due to the thing's i listed. You usually get a much clearer picture after more games are played and the #'s tend to even out. Either way, I think we are very close with the teams we are naming on who is the best. It is impossible to tell right now which exact one is!!
You're 100% right on your points. Who you have out there is a part of it and a D1 lineup on defense is going to be tough. I was just trying to throw a few simple numbers out there to show that we can't just go by points against to crown the best defense. I really don't know who has the best defense, but I know we listed some good one's.

[lonny23]

Lonny, what the hell happened to your thread?

"Most misunderstood" would make for a good sig. :D I'd do it in Orange
It makes me reminisce about the old days when everybody fought with me! :D Ever since I started arguing with people and stopped, we've had a whole slew of people on here stirring stuff up. Crap, we even have a bunch of thread hijackers.

[eagleike]

Stopping the spread:

The running qb is the part of the offense that makes the spread dangerous. Pocket passers regularly get killed in the spread on the college level and I have seen the same on the high school level. The field is easier to defend when the qb looks to pass and pass only.

Texas is a prime example of what makes the spread work. Vince can go to the house on every play and that slows down the lb's and the pass rush in general. And boom........td pass. Drop in coverage and he will run in the lanes created by the dropping lb's and safeties.

[DragonFan]

Speaking of Hijacking.... Take this thread to SLC! :D

[Stranglehold]

Garland might be a top 10 defense also??

Garland is very good defensively, and they have played an extremely tough schedule but giving up 280 yds a game will not make you a top 10 defense.

[Stranglehold]

that theory of defenses being ahead of offenses early in the seasons doesn't work as well as it used to. with spring training and 7on7 seasons basically extending football yearround, teams like slc don't have the risk of losing their edge, because they never stop playing.

a great defensive team will someday work the tricks in the spread to slow it down on a regular basis. or the rule-makers will change something to slow it down, but it will require a team putting their best eleven guys on defense. since slc's best players generally go to offense, the other team better do the opposite to stop them. defense is a much harder part of football to get a handle on. back in the day, when it was eleven v eleven and a scrum most every play, it didn't require much but a desire to hit the other guy to be a defensive player. todays intricate offenses and with the use of the whole field, a defensive scheme is more difficult to master than offense. and since every offense is a little to a lot different, every week requires relearning thus mistakes. since the offense can and does know in advance where the routes and running lanes are supposed to be, and the defense has to react and respond, it is just harder to do.

Why is it no one sees that offenses are given every advantage while defenses are not given an equal size stick to play with. Go watch ANY game and see how many offensive holding calls are not called. However any time a ball goes in the air you will most likely get pass interference called. Intentional grounding, shuttle passes, holding is legal inside the framework pick any thing you want, the game is being geared on all levels to do away with great defenses and to create great offenses at their expense. That's just the way it is I know....people want to see big plays, and lots of yards racked up. It sells tickets at the upper levels and trickles down to the lower levels. I realize it is a fact of life but what a bunch of crap

[dragonsdaddy]

why is it no one besides stranglehold and ddaddy sees the problem? defenses get no breaks.

[lonny23]

Why is it no one sees that offenses are given every advantage while defenses are not given an equal size stick to play with. Go watch ANY game and see how many offensive holding calls are not called. However any time a ball goes in the air you will most likely get pass interference called. Intentional grounding, shuttle passes, holding is legal inside the framework pick any thing you want, the game is being geared on all levels to do away with great defenses and to create great offenses at their expense. That's just the way it is I know....people want to see big plays, and lots of yards racked up. It sells tickets at the upper levels and trickles down to the lower levels. I realize it is a fact of life but what a bunch of crap
Hey, it's the Dr. Spock generation. Yoiu can't restrain kids or hold them back! You'll stunt their development. They need to be free and loose and football rules for the offense follows that! :D

[ALLIN]

This years SLC team is just as good on offense (stats wise, they are better) and the defense is much better than last year. Fleeman, write this down, I know luna was a great back for SLC, but by the time he is done meaning graduated, Tre Newton will be the best back EVER to come out of SLC. He has more athletic potential than I have seen in a while on anyone, any team. He is just now starting to realize that potential and it has showed the last few weeks. Not a dis to you, just throwing mho out there.

[lonny23]

I wanted to start a thread about defense. The best offensive teams need some semblance of defense to win games, but defense really keeps you in games. You can hang your hat on defense and sometimes your offense really picks you up and gives you a boost.

We rag on Judson not having the offense they need, but let me tell you that the defense is going to keep them in these games for the rest of the year. Judson was down 2-0 a few seconds into the Roosevelt game and TR spent most of the next quarter in Judson territory. The Rockets made 2 goal line stands in the first that could've put them down 16-0 if they hadn't buckled down. That's the kind of thing that a team can build around. I saw Chapel Hill win the 4A title in 1990 because they wouldn't give up points on defense and the Ravens won a Super Bowl a few years ago because of it, too.

Who out there has a defense that is legtimately shutting teams down that DO have an offense. I don't care to hear from the Clemens fans because I already know you have a good defense, but also one that very well might look better than you are because of the competition.
Yeah, this was a good thread.