Mack has got to go

[Mad Hatter]

As much as i like Mack Brown as a person the program has gotten out of hand. I dont care what people say disipline starts with the coaches and CLEARLY we have lost that. James henrey needs to be the Straw that breaks the camels back, Mack needs to step down he can no longer run this program, Texas is just becoming a running joke for people. Ifi have to read one more thread about one of our players being arrested i think my head might explode.

[BDB]

lol sad news is that he will be in charge of ALL sports after he retires.

at first it was like "hey atleast they're not sweeping it under the rug"

now it's " DAMNIT! GET THEIR MOMMA'S THERE ASAP!"

[LoneRocket]

As much as i like Mack Brown as a person the program has gotten out of hand. I dont care what people say disipline starts with the coaches and CLEARLY we have lost that. James henrey needs to be the Straw that breaks the camels back, Mack needs to step down he can no longer run this program, Texas is just becoming a running joke for people. Ifi have to read one more thread about one of our players being arrested i think my head might explode.

Not going to happen.

[Mad Hatter]

im aware of this but, i still think he needs to go. we need someone whos going to be hard on these kids and install strict measures.

[yallerjacket]

im aware of this but, i still think he needs to go. we need someone whos going to be hard on these kids and install strict measures.

Mack has a "zero-tolerance" policy in place already. Can't get any more strict than that. :D

[jtk1519]

With all due respect, this is an asinine thread. Mack has done all he can do. What, do you think there is a coach that is going to come in and throw down stiffer punishments? Please. Mack has kicked more kids off the team in the past year or so, than he ever has. News flash: outside of ordering a hit, there is NOTHING more Mack can do to a kid than kick him off the team. That is where Mack's jurisdiction ends and to his credit, Mack has not been afraid to go the distance.

If you think Mack should lose his job now, then I would like to know who you would hire in his place and exactly what would you expect this new coach to do that Mack has not already done. Maybe you would expect this new coach to kick a kid off the team and then chase him out of Austin with a rolled up newspaper. Texas, like every other school, puts their kids through classes to let them know what is expected of them and to let them know they will be punished if they break the rules. After that, it's up to the kids to pull their heads out and do the right thing. If they chose not to obey, then it falls on the HC to throw down the punishment and lately, Mack's guitine has been the sharpest around.

Get a grip folks. Texas is going through a rough spell like far too many schools have been going through far too often. Mack has recently changed his recruiting strategy to place more of an emphasis on grades and character and he has adopted the same tough punishments that have won guys like Steve Spurrier and Urban Meyer so much praise. It's embarrassing enough to be a fan of The University and have to read about this stuff in the paper, but it's even more embarrassing to read some of the stupid and illogical knee-jerk reactions that come from Texas "fans".

[KT2000]

What's interesting is many of these players in trouble with the law are part of Mack's character movement the last two or three years. The much maligned big three class didn't have near this many problems that I remember. The Edorian McCullough's were isolated problems for UT until the last year. I'd like to know why these players are losing their minds all of a sudden.

[Dawg Fan]

Wow that didn't take long. LOL

We will give you Fran and $100 for Mack right now.

[jtk1519]

Wow that didn't take long. LOL

We will give you Fran and $100 for Mack right now.

No thanks. Last time I was at DKR, the snack machines were stocked plenty full of Twinkies. :D

[Favpack]

I think Florida has had 6 or 8 arrests since they won the BCS - should Urban go?

[KT2000]

I think Florida has had 6 or 8 arrests since they won the BCS - should Urban go?

Maybe it's a championship program thing.

I have trouble understanding how so many of the same group can make such dumb decisions.

[Favpack]

Maybe it's a championship program thing.

I have trouble understanding how so many of the same group can make such dumb decisions.

I think so - it creates accelerated stupidity among those already at risk.

[twcpfan1]

Wow that didn't take long. LOL

We will give you Fran and $100 for Mack right now.

no thanks. i think we're better off with fran :eek::D

[HUM398]

no thanks. i think we're better off with fran :eek::D

Dumbest post of the day.

Congrats.

[t-long20]

I love being a longhorns fan but its hard to watch texas struggle like this

Ou sucks but doesnt it seem like some years they've done better with texas talent then texas itself has done with there own talent?

[lonny23]

As much as i like Mack Brown as a person the program has gotten out of hand. I dont care what people say disipline starts with the coaches and CLEARLY we have lost that. James henrey needs to be the Straw that breaks the camels back, Mack needs to step down he can no longer run this program, Texas is just becoming a running joke for people. Ifi have to read one more thread about one of our players being arrested i think my head might explode.
I said it before, but I'll say it again. I like Mack as UT coach. I like having somebody over there that makes excuses everytime you play bad. You might goof up and find somebody better. Keep Mack.

I know some are going to say he beats Tech, but I'm a firm believer that Texas' days of beating Tech every year are numbered and Mack will help.

[LoneRocket]

Wow that didn't take long. LOL

We will give you Fran and $100 for Mack right now.

I do not think Colt can run the triple option besides you need to also throw in a FB.

[twcpfan1]

Dumbest post of the day.

Congrats.

Not really.

Dumbest is you tu fans thinking that Texas is a BCS Bowl game contender. And that Mack has ever been a good coach. :D

Oh what about the prediction that they would beat the Aggies in Austin last year? Now that was dumb. :D

[jtk1519]

I know some are going to say he beats Tech, but I'm a firm believer that Texas' days of beating Tech every year are numbered and Mack will help.

That's because you're an idiot.

[LoneRocket]

I said it before, but I'll say it again. I like Mack as UT coach. I like having somebody over there that makes excuses everytime you play bad. You might goof up and find somebody better. Keep Mack.

I know some are going to say he beats Tech, but I'm a firm believer that Texas' days of beating Tech every year are numbered and Mack will help.

Mack said his team was ranked to high at the start of the season.

[Firebird]

As an Aggie fan, I want UT to fire Mack now. In fact, I demmand it. It's the only decent thing to do.

Y'all are missing out-- I know a great coach in Charlotesville that would be a perfect fit.

[jtk1519]

Mack said his team was ranked to high at the start of the season.

Don't make excuses, dude. Mack is responsible for the preseason AP polls and he needs to do a better job with the BOMC.

[KT2000]

Let's keep the insults out of it please. I think the lock rate on the college board has to be near 50%.

[LoneRocket]

Don't make excuses, dude. Mack is responsible for the preseason AP polls and he needs to do a better job with the BOMC.

I am just stating what he said at a news conference, I am just ready to watch Sergio Kiddle play.

[BoomerSooner]

I think Florida has had 6 or 8 arrests since they won the BCS - should Urban go?

Yes, absolutely, him and Mack both. They can both come to OU. Stoops as head coach, Mack can be the recruiter, and Urban Meyer can be the offensive coordinator. Hell I heard Pete Carroll has had some problems, he can be head coach, and Stoops can be D coordinator. That wouldn't be a pretty good coaching staff.

[BoomerSooner]

Texas probably just shouldn't field a team.

[Matthew 2000 Eagle]

Yes, absolutely, him and Mack both. They can both come to OU. Stoops as head coach, Mack can be the recruiter, and Urban Meyer can be the offensive coordinator. Hell I heard Pete Carroll has had some problems, he can be head coach, and Stoops can be D coordinator. That wouldn't be a pretty good coaching staff.

Sir, that would be cheating!

[jtk1519]

Texas probably just shouldn't field a team.

I personally think they should just drop the football program, period. DKR can be turned into a really cool concert venue.

[LoneRocket]

I personally think they should just drop the football program, period. DKR can be turned into a really cool concert venue.

Just give the stadium to Austin ISD.

[BoomerSooner]

I personally think they should just drop the football program, period. DKR can be turned into a really cool concert venue.

I like where this is going. Let's keep the ideas coming....

[BoomerSooner]

Sir, that would be cheating!

No no, we could just pass it off as consolidating.

[twcpfan1]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Whichever way you slice it, Texas are still 3-0.

[BoomerSooner]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Whichever way you slice it, Texas are still 3-0.

No no, they are scrapping the football program. JTK's talking to UT's Athletic Director tomorrow. It's all but set in stone.

[Reaganrattler07]

no thanks. i think we're better off with fran :eek::D

Am I the only one who likes Fran?:(

(And is an Aggie fan)

[BoomerSooner]

Am I the only one who likes Fran?:(

(And is an Aggie fan)

Yep.

[jtk1519]

No no, they are scrapping the football program. JTK's talking to UT's Athletic Director tomorrow. It's all but set in stone.

I've been text messaging DeLoss all night. Turns out DKR can be turned into 300 luxury condos ranging from $400,000-$5,000,000 and demand is high. The stands are going to be turned into giant slip-n-slides and the field will be torn up and replaced with the world's largest swimming pool. Mack has been reassigned to valet parking and Greg Davis will be in charge of singles night while Akina will wear a coconut shell bra and hula skirt and teach seniors (citizens that is) how to dance. Personally, I'm excited.

[t-long20]

Colt McCoy will be in charge of the karaoke, and Jamaal Charles will be the head of security

[BoomerSooner]

I've been text messaging DeLoss all night. Turns out DKR can be turned into 300 luxury condos ranging from $400,000-$5,000,000 and demand is high. The stands are going to be turned into giant slip-n-slides and the field will be torn up and replaced with the world's largest swimming pool. Mack has been reassigned to valet parking and Greg Davis will be in charge of singles night while Akina will wear a coconut shell bra and hula skirt and teach seniors (citizens that is) how to dance. Personally, I'm excited.

Are non senior citizens eligible to take dance lessons?

[BoomerSooner]

Colt McCoy will be in charge of the karaoke, and Jamaal Charles will be the head of security

What's Okam going to do?

[jtk1519]

What's Okam going to do?

Head chef

http://www.scientomogy.com/stopscientology/chef_scientologist1.jpg

[syzygy]

As much as i like Mack Brown as a person the program has gotten out of hand. I dont care what people say disipline starts with the coaches and CLEARLY we have lost that. James henrey needs to be the Straw that breaks the camels back, Mack needs to step down he can no longer run this program, Texas is just becoming a running joke for people. Ifi have to read one more thread about one of our players being arrested i think my head might explode.

These aren't little children, they're young adults, and there's only so much Brown can do as a disciplinarian. Calling for Brown to hit the door because Robert Joseph spiked the punch is an overreaction. Brown does need to come down hard on the whole team even if it's only one player that got in trouble--I'm not sure if he already does this.

[Redhoss]

Maybe it's a championship program thing.

I have trouble understanding how so many of the same group can make such dumb decisions.

Ain't it the truth. :rolleyes:

[BoomerSooner]

Head chef

http://www.scientomogy.com/stopscientology/chef_scientologist1.jpg

Ah, I see. I just hope he doesn't have any qualms with scientology...

[rayanderson]

What's interesting is many of these players in trouble with the law are part of Mack's character movement the last two or three years. The much maligned big three class didn't have near this many problems that I remember. The Edorian McCullough's were isolated problems for UT until the last year. I'd like to know why these players are losing their minds all of a sudden.

It's called the Ricky Williams Effect, But Mack needs to keep his Zero Tolerance and Enforce It.

[BoomerSooner]

It's called the Ricky Williams Effect, But Mack needs to keep his Zero Tolerance and Enforce It.

I heard he may try to make a comeback, and I'm not joking. Hasn't he had 4 strikes? 3 originally to kick him out and then a 4th to kick him out again?

[HUM398]

Not really.

Dumbest is you tu fans thinking that Texas is a BCS Bowl game contender. And that Mack has ever been a good coach. :D

Oh what about the prediction that they would beat the Aggies in Austin last year? Now that was dumb. :D

No, logic and reasoing tell me other wise.

How many 10 win seasons has he had? How many Top recruiting classes has he had? How many bowl game wins does he have in a row?

The fact that you think he is a bad coach is utterly ridiculous, his record speaks for its self... . To even imply that you wouldnt take Mack over Fran only shows what is exactly wrong with alot A&M football fans...You are ok with being below avg.

Here is the bottom line, Texas is and has been a Top 10 program...and a Top 15 team for some time now. Texas is 3rd winningest program of all time, and has four national titles... To imply that Texas doesn't have a chance to make a BCS bowl is only denying their track record. Yes, ill admit...Texas looks like crap now, and BCS is not very likely...But i wouldn't be incredible shocked if they were playing in a BCS bowl come January.

[Mad Hatter]

Jtk you can say what you want but it looks like to me and alot of other people around the country that mack is losing control of this team. Im as die hard a UT fan as you my firend but 6 arrests in 4 months is a VERY BAD thing.

[HUM398]

Jtk you can say what you want but it looks like to me and alot of other people around the country that mack is losing control of this team. Im as die hard a UT fan as you my firend but 6 arrests in 4 months is a VERY BAD thing.

Bro, im sorry but your off base on this one. Texas is having a rough time right now, and Mack will have to learn from this and move on... But im not about to cry for his hanging because of a bunch of dumb kids choices to undermine their team and coach. He has done a pretty good job since he got here, and its going to take more then 6 jackasses in 4 months to get him fired

[BoomerSooner]

No, logic and reasoing tell me other wise.

How many 10 win seasons has he had? How many Top recruiting classes has he had? How many bowl game wins does he have in a row?

The fact that you think he is a bad coach is utterly ridiculous, his record speaks for its self... . To even imply that you wouldnt take Mack over Fran only shows what is exactly wrong with alot A&M football fans...You are ok with being below avg.

Here is the bottom line, Texas is and has been a Top 10 program...and a Top 15 team for some time now. Texas is 3rd winningest program of all time, and has four national titles... To imply that Texas doesn't have a chance to make a BCS bowl is only denying their track record. Yes, ill admit...Texas looks like crap now, and BCS is not very likely...But i wouldn't be incredible shocked if they were playing in a BCS bowl come January.


And even if he doesn't make one this year, there's always next year. This year and the next might be A&M's only shot for a while.

[lonny23]

That's because you're an idiot.
The truth is to come. I just gave you an advance warning.

[lonny23]

As an Aggie fan, I want UT to fire Mack now. In fact, I demmand it. It's the only decent thing to do.

Y'all are missing out-- I know a great coach in Charlotesville that would be a perfect fit.
As much as I say Texas should keep Mack (98-22 at Texas), they've all been worse than ol' Mack for the last 50 years except Royal. Maybe they should fire him because they've been good at getting the Fred Akers (86-31-2), David McWilliams (31-26), and John Mackovic's (41-28-2) of the world.

[bowiedawgs01]

I only read the first post. How can James Henry be the straw that broke the camel's back? This happened awhile ago in conjunction with the Andre Jones stuff. It's just now coming out. It's not like it's something new.

I just don't see how this can change how we felt about Mack 3 days ago. The guy didn't just yesterday go out and commit a felony. It was weeks ago.

It's hard to put into words what I'm thinking. Let's say a guy goes out tomorrow and commits a felony. THAT would be a straw that could break the camel's back. Because it's something new. Not weeks old.

[Slim-Rob]

Ya'll are stupid. Firing Mack Brown for his athletes making bad decisions would be like firing the SAPD Chief because there's too much crime in San Antonio...He can only punish those who make mistakes and try his hardest to prevent them fro doing so...same with the police. Sooo....wanna fire the police chief?

[Slim-Rob]

Jtk you can say what you want but it looks like to me and alot of other people around the country that mack is losing control of this team. Im as die hard a UT fan as you my firend but 6 arrests in 4 months is a VERY BAD thing.

Yeah but 2 from 1 incident, 2 from another, then 2 more arrests. Not really that bad...

[LoneRocket]

Head chef

http://www.scientomogy.com/stopscientology/chef_scientologist1.jpg

You mean Mad Dog.

[Firebird]

n/m

[KT2000]

There is no positive spin that can be put on this, and it needs to be dealt with from top to bottom. Mack needs to address the team as if he was Clint Eastwood at the end of Unforgiven and lay down the friggin law.

[twcpfan1]

No, logic and reasoing tell me other wise.

How many 10 win seasons has he had? How many Top recruiting classes has he had? How many bowl game wins does he have in a row?

The fact that you think he is a bad coach is utterly ridiculous, his record speaks for its self... . To even imply that you wouldnt take Mack over Fran only shows what is exactly wrong with alot A&M football fans...You are ok with being below avg.

Here is the bottom line, Texas is and has been a Top 10 program...and a Top 15 team for some time now. Texas is 3rd winningest program of all time, and has four national titles... To imply that Texas doesn't have a chance to make a BCS bowl is only denying their track record. Yes, ill admit...Texas looks like crap now, and BCS is not very likely...But i wouldn't be incredible shocked if they were playing in a BCS bowl come January.

Go back to my original post and this time notice the smiley faces immediately after my comments.

Truthfully though, if we were to replace Fran, I would hope we would end up with somebody better, a lot better than Mack Brown.

As for the BCS aspirations, anything is possible. But I'm having a hard time finding any kind of reason why Texas could possibly beat OU.

[lonny23]

I only read the first post. How can James Henry be the straw that broke the camel's back? This happened awhile ago in conjunction with the Andre Jones stuff. It's just now coming out. It's not like it's something new.

I just don't see how this can change how we felt about Mack 3 days ago. The guy didn't just yesterday go out and commit a felony. It was weeks ago.

It's hard to put into words what I'm thinking. Let's say a guy goes out tomorrow and commits a felony. THAT would be a straw that could break the camel's back. Because it's something new. Not weeks old.
Nothing has changed the way I feel about Mack. He just proves my words more often these days.

[lonny23]

Ya'll are stupid. Firing Mack Brown for his athletes making bad decisions would be like firing the SAPD Chief because there's too much crime in San Antonio...He can only punish those who make mistakes and try his hardest to prevent them fro doing so...same with the police. Sooo....wanna fire the police chief?
Mack needs to go because Texas could've gotten a better coach to start with. He's not even the best in the state or #2.

[lonny23]

Go back to my original post and this time notice the smiley faces immediately after my comments.

Truthfully though, if we were to replace Fran, I would hope we would end up with somebody better, a lot better than Mack Brown.

As for the BCS aspirations, anything is possible. But I'm having a hard time finding any kind of reason why Texas could possibly beat OU.
Texas could run the table, but I doubt they do it. The way they've been playing so far, they look like they'll lose to OU and Tech. I'll give them the Nebraska, A&M, K-State, and OSU games as wins even though they're more than capable of losing them.

[HUM398]

Texas could run the table, but I doubt they do it. The way they've been playing so far, they look like they'll lose to OU and Tech. I'll give them the Nebraska, A&M, K-State, and OSU games as wins even though they're more than capable of losing them.

Will just see what happens against Rice, if we struggle...we are in for a long season of inconsistent football.

Pittman and Sweed both play in this game...so that should open alot of things up for us.

[Favpack]

Will just see what happens against Rice, if we struggle...we are in for a long season of inconsistent football.

Pittman and Sweed both play in this game...so that should open alot of things up for us.

Rice is terrible - I mean a horrific team. I don't think Rice tells you much Hum.

[lonny23]

Will just see what happens against Rice, if we struggle...we are in for a long season of inconsistent football.

Pittman and Sweed both play in this game...so that should open alot of things up for us.
You better pound Rice. I don't think that's a full indicator of the year, though. I guess the team could turn it on, but complacency is usually contagious and recurring over a full season.

The bright side is you've played badly and haven't lost.

[HUM398]

You better pound Rice. I don't think that's a full indicator of the year, though. I guess the team could turn it on, but complacency is usually contagious and recurring over a full season.

The bright side is you've played badly and haven't lost.

No one game is a full indicator of how the season will play out, but playing poorly will become habit for these guys.

I really hope this is just a case of uninspired football... But your right, we are 3-0...and thats much better then what could of been 0-3 (Notre Dame)

[TulsaHale74]

Am I the only one who likes Fran?:(

(And is an Aggie fan)
Did somebody say something about a ship sinking?
Can't say it better than SV61's original posts. Still ROTFL.

[BoomerSooner]

Mack needs to go because Texas could've gotten a better coach to start with. He's not even the best in the state or #2.

As opposed to???

[Firebird]

As opposed to???

I'll do my best to channel Lonny:

Leach would be the best, followed closely by Briles at UH. Patterson at TCU might be ahead of him too, as well as Price at UTEP.

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENT DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF FIREBIRD HIMSELF, SO PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT YOUR RETORTS HIS DIRECTION.

[BoomerSooner]

I'll do my best to channel Lonny:

Leach would be the best, followed closely by Briles at UH. Patterson at TCU might be ahead of him too, as well as Price at UTEP.

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENT DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF FIREBIRD HIMSELF, SO PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT YOUR RETORTS HIS DIRECTION.

Hahahahaha, alright. Well I'll have to disagree based on logic and facts.

[cajun]

What if Texas win the National Title...They got as good as chance as anyone else really....They got the tools, just gotta learn to use them...

"Mack has to stay"....

We love Mack then, huh..

Or is Mack out regardless??

[Reaganrattler07]

Ya'll are stupid. Firing Mack Brown for his athletes making bad decisions would be like firing the SAPD Chief because there's too much crime in San Antonio...He can only punish those who make mistakes and try his hardest to prevent them fro doing so...same with the police. Sooo....wanna fire the police chief?

Uh....that happens.

He's supposed to crack down on crime.

[jtk1519]

Mack needs to go because Texas could've gotten a better coach to start with. He's not even the best in the state or #2.

And yet he's the ONLY coach in Texas with a Big XII South title, A big XII title and/or a national title. Hell, I think Art Briles and Gary Patterson might be the only other Div. 1A coaches in Texas with a conference title at their present schools.

Please get back to us when Leach has won anything... I mean anything. I'm still waiting on just something. Hell, all he has to do is just win the South and I'll be sold and then he can go back to get worked by the good teams in the conference.

[Firebird]

And yet he's the ONLY coach in Texas with a Big XII South title, A big XII title and/or a national title. Hell, I think Art Briles and Gary Patterson might be the only other Div. 1A coaches in Texas with a conference title at their present schools.

Please get back to us when Leach has won anything... I mean anything. I'm still waiting on just something. Hell, all he has to do is just win the South and I'll be sold and then he can go back to get worked by the good teams in the conference.

Yeah, but you aren't taking into account the inherent advantages that Texas has against Tech when recruiting, along with the extra money they have to pay football players and buy referees.

[WestPlano006]

Yeah, but you aren't taking into account the inherent advantages that Texas has against Tech when recruiting, along with the extra money they have to pay football players and buy referees.

lol

[jtk1519]

Yeah, but you aren't taking into account the inherent advantages that Texas has against Tech when recruiting, along with the extra money they have to pay football players and buy referees.

Give lonny his tinfoil hat back. What's he supposed to protect himself with when the aliens come. ;)

[unbiasedobserver]

I have to believe that if Leech was really any good, he wouldn't still be at some school in the middle of nowhere that at best is a perennial 25-15 ranked team. They have never and will never be mentioned in the same sentence as National Champion contender. IF he was really good he would be sought after by some of the big boys...kinda like Stoops, and even Fran and Brown.

[jtk1519]

I have to believe that if Leech was really any good, he wouldn't still be at some school in the middle of nowhere that at best is a perennial 25-15 ranked team. They have never and will never be mentioned in the same sentence as National Champion contender. IF he was really good he would be sought after by some of the big boys...kinda like Stoops, and even Fran and Brown.

Dude, duck and cover. ;)

[Firebird]

I have to believe that if Leech was really any good, he wouldn't still be at some school in the middle of nowhere that at best is a perennial 25-15 ranked team. They have never and will never be mentioned in the same sentence as National Champion contender. IF he was really good he would be sought after by some of the big boys...kinda like Stoops, and even Fran and Brown.


Leach wanted the Miami job, bad, and he was disappointed that he didn't recieve more serious consideration. Since I like Tech, I am glad he's still on the South Plains, but don't kid yourself-- he'd take a bigger school if he got the chance.

He has some work to do, though. I don't think he needs to take Tech to a BCS bowl, but he needs to come close if he wants to be seriously considered as the man for a bigger program. He needs to rack up at least a couple of ten win seasons, and probably win the South for that to happen.

There's another problem, too-- the hoity toity, big name schools do not want someone who is going to ramble about pirates and make hilarious appearances filling in as the local weatherman. He does not fit the image of a national power-type coach, and that does count against him, believe me. That's not to say that he can't secure a job with one of those schools, but his personal quirks make it all the more difficult.

I think that at an established program, if he could lure some defensive coaching talent serve under him, he could make some serious noise. The problem with that is, serious defensive coaches are going to avoid a Leach-run program like the plauge. Being a DC under Leach is kinda like being a QB for Texas A&M-- a straight shot towards irrelveance.

At Tech-- I think that there is still some room for them to improve under Leach, but it's going to be some tough sledding. I don't think at all that it is guranteed like Lonny, nor do I see the same room for improvement. I do think that with Leach, Tech could turn in a ten win season every couple of years, and contend for the South maybe every five. I don't see too much beyond that though, and even that is not an iron-clad lock. Leach may have to start doing a few things a bit differently.

[country club]

It has been said "A fish rots from the Head down"

[lonny23]

I'll do my best to channel Lonny:

Leach would be the best, followed closely by Briles at UH. Patterson at TCU might be ahead of him too, as well as Price at UTEP.

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENT DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF FIREBIRD HIMSELF, SO PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT YOUR RETORTS HIS DIRECTION.
Very well, young ninja.

I know recruiting is part of a coach's job, but we all know that the head coach is a part-timer at the game. A good closer helps in that regard. Most of the recruiting work is done by lesser guys on the staff. I still contend that some places are easier to sell than others. Even good ol' UNC has had 3-4 recruiting classes in the Top 25 since 2002 without 'ol Mack around. Texas recruits better with Mack than without him, but they weren't horrible without him. The main thing that helped Mack was A&M stopped being good to great. Austin and Chapel Hill are two of the easier places to get people to come to.

Anyway, Texas fans say Mack doesn't do much X's and O's coaching. I see a guy that was an assistant for 11 years and had a record of 25-52-1 in his first 7 years as a head coach (Appalachian State 1, Tulane 3, then UNC). He only played in 1 bowl his first 8 years coaching and the first thing he did at UNC was take over a 5-6 team and lead them to back-to-back 1-10 seasons. He never should've been hired at UNC after a 6-6 and his only early bowl at Tulane and Texas could've done better. I only mentioned the first 7 years because Leach was 56-33 in his first 7 years with 7 bowls against better competition and he wasn't even an assistant as long as Mack was.

Anyway, you know I have Leach at #1 in Texas. He doesn't have the money and fanbase of the Big 2 or the best location and doesn't recruit as well on paper, but Tech does better than expected every year. That's why they were listed as one of the top 5 overachieving programs in football. A&M is on the underachieving list, so Fran can take his place somewhere behind Mack.

The UH recruiting is getting better, but it has a long ways to go. I have to give Briles his due and #2. He took over a team that had been horrible for most of the last 8 years and will probably lead them to their 4th bowl in his 5 years this year. He wasn't that far from being 13-0 during the regular season in 2006. They might get back to 10 wins this year.

I'm giving 3rd to Mike Price. The guy can coach. He proved that at Washington State and would've proved it at Alabama. If he can start getting talent that will work and not just talented miscreants, he'll be on the right track in El Paso.

Gary Patterson sure has looked good for the most part. He loses too many games that he should win, though. I'm talking about blowing the BYU game after Tech last year and the Air Force gane last week. He's better than Mack, but I can't put him 3rd right now, so he gets 4th.

The Top 4 have shown they can get to bowl games without a bunch of blue-chip talent and the last 2 are unproven and that leaves a middle ground of 4. This is where I acknowledge the strength of competition and each coach's record.

5. Mack Brown
6. Dennis Franchione (As much as I dog Fran, Morriss and Bennett need to win more with what they do have to make me put them above him.)
7. Guy Morriss
8. Phil Bennett

I think Dodge can coach, but he gets 9th until he proves himself. I'll give the new guy at Rice 10th right now. UNT might be better than Rice.

[lonny23]

What if Texas win the National Title...They got as good as chance as anyone else really....They got the tools, just gotta learn to use them...

"Mack has to stay"....

We love Mack then, huh..

Or is Mack out regardless??
Things would have to get bad before they can Mack. He'll stay forever with 9-3 and some 10-2's mixed in.

[lonny23]

And yet he's the ONLY coach in Texas with a Big XII South title, A big XII title and/or a national title. Hell, I think Art Briles and Gary Patterson might be the only other Div. 1A coaches in Texas with a conference title at their present schools.

Please get back to us when Leach has won anything... I mean anything. I'm still waiting on just something. Hell, all he has to do is just win the South and I'll be sold and then he can go back to get worked by the good teams in the conference.
You are correct on Briles and Patterson and they're both better than Mack.

[lonny23]

I have to believe that if Leech was really any good, he wouldn't still be at some school in the middle of nowhere that at best is a perennial 25-15 ranked team. They have never and will never be mentioned in the same sentence as National Champion contender. IF he was really good he would be sought after by some of the big boys...kinda like Stoops, and even Fran and Brown.
I happen to believe that Gerald Meyers knows he has a good coach and that's why he gets paid good money. He talked to Miami before the Insight Bowl and the rumblings were that he was short for Tech. The debacle of last year's team hurt him, but he'll be back in the running for a good job with a good year this year. I also think that some teams have a certain image they want for their coach and Leach doesn't fit the image. BTW, there are still rumors floating around about Leach at OU if Stoops ever leaves.

[lonny23]

Leach wanted the Miami job, bad, and he was disappointed that he didn't recieve more serious consideration. Since I like Tech, I am glad he's still on the South Plains, but don't kid yourself-- he'd take a bigger school if he got the chance.

He has some work to do, though. I don't think he needs to take Tech to a BCS bowl, but he needs to come close if he wants to be seriously considered as the man for a bigger program. He needs to rack up at least a couple of ten win seasons, and probably win the South for that to happen.

There's another problem, too-- the hoity toity, big name schools do not want someone who is going to ramble about pirates and make hilarious appearances filling in as the local weatherman. He does not fit the image of a national power-type coach, and that does count against him, believe me. That's not to say that he can't secure a job with one of those schools, but his personal quirks make it all the more difficult.

I think that at an established program, if he could lure some defensive coaching talent serve under him, he could make some serious noise. The problem with that is, serious defensive coaches are going to avoid a Leach-run program like the plauge. Being a DC under Leach is kinda like being a QB for Texas A&M-- a straight shot towards irrelveance.

At Tech-- I think that there is still some room for them to improve under Leach, but it's going to be some tough sledding. I don't think at all that it is guranteed like Lonny, nor do I see the same room for improvement. I do think that with Leach, Tech could turn in a ten win season every couple of years, and contend for the South maybe every five. I don't see too much beyond that though, and even that is not an iron-clad lock. Leach may have to start doing a few things a bit differently.Some of the RB talent coming to Tech might force him to start running more and that would lead to more time of possession. Being a defensive coach for Leach puts you in the background, but it can be done as Miami threw the ball and attacked on defense.

I will say times change and some of the Big 12 programs can turn around. A hotshot coach at some places can make Tech's job a lot harder, but I'm somewhat pleased with the current Big 12 South coaches.

[unbiasedobserver]

OK Lonnie who lists Tech as one of the 4 overachieving programs? I never even heard of such a list although admittedly I am not as up-to-snuff as you. I really do appreciate your insight and knowledge, but I have to see a link before I buy this.
Also who Mac and Leech were assistants to might make a difference in their records don't ya think? I mean being Stoops assistant is a whole lot better than being "Whatshisnames" assistant.

[jtk1519]

When it comes to in-state and on-conference (and even outside the conference to an extent) hype, no team underachieves more than Tech. Nobody hypes &M because they have sucked for a while. Houston flies under the radar, as does UTEP. TCU and Texas have both produced at some very high levels so it is impossible to call either of them overrated in relation to their hype.

Tech is the one team year in and year out who is always labeled as some kind of contender. They are always the team that has a "chance". Amazingly enough, the pirate is 2-12 against the South's true powers and has never been close to competing for the Big XII South, much less the Big XII championship or anything above that. Lonny doesn't want to admit that and I understand his blinding bias, but Leach and Tech are all hype with no production where it counts. I think Leach is a tremendous coach, but he has shown absolutely nothing in his career at Tech to lead anyone to believe he is anything more than a slightly above average head coach.

[lonny23]

OK Lonnie who lists Tech as one of the 4 overachieving programs? I never even heard of such a list although admittedly I am not as up-to-snuff as you. I really do appreciate your insight and knowledge, but I have to see a link before I buy this.
Also who Mac and Leech were assistants to might make a difference in their records don't ya think? I mean being Stoops assistant is a whole lot better than being "Whatshisnames" assistant.As far as records go, I was talking about their record as a head coach. I didn't say anything about their record as an assistant.

[lonny23]

OK Lonnie who lists Tech as one of the 4 overachieving programs? I never even heard of such a list although admittedly I am not as up-to-snuff as you. I really do appreciate your insight and knowledge, but I have to see a link before I buy this.
Also who Mac and Leech were assistants to might make a difference in their records don't ya think? I mean being Stoops assistant is a whole lot better than being "Whatshisnames" assistant.Bruce Feldman said it in a chat on ESPN.
From ESPN chat, Tech Top 5 Overachieving Team

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=17289

Scott (Boston MA): Your top 5 overachieving and top 5 underachieving schools.

Bruce Feldman: (4:27 PM ET ) Forde did a great story on this a few weeks back...

Bruce Feldman: (4:28 PM ET ) Underachieving historically over the last decade: ASU, Texas A&M, Clemson, Tennessee and not ready for 5..

Bruce Feldman: (4:29 PM ET ) Overachieving: Navy, BC, Texas Tech, TCU and last year Wake

[ACM Dad]

It's pretty funny. Fans are never satisfied. Fran has to go yells the Aggies. Mack has to go yells some wHorns.

let's just ditch em all!

[lonny23]

When it comes to in-state and on-conference (and even outside the conference to an extent) hype, no team underachieves more than Tech. Nobody hypes &M because they have sucked for a while. Houston flies under the radar, as does UTEP. TCU and Texas have both produced at some very high levels so it is impossible to call either of them overrated in relation to their hype.

Tech is the one team year in and year out who is always labeled as some kind of contender. They are always the team that has a "chance". Amazingly enough, the pirate is 2-12 against the South's true powers and has never been close to competing for the Big XII South, much less the Big XII championship or anything above that. Lonny doesn't want to admit that and I understand his blinding bias, but Leach and Tech are all hype with no production where it counts. I think Leach is a tremendous coach, but he has shown absolutely nothing in his career at Tech to lead anyone to believe he is anything more than a slightly above average head coach.I'll try to type real slow so you can read this.

Texas has good recruiting classes, huge fan support, and great facilities. That makes them a favorite.

I'm not going to dog out what Tech has, but I also know it doesn't match the 3 things I said about Texas. They get called a contender and maybe having a chance because they actually compete against Texas and OU.

If you want to call somebody a underachiever, try these teams that on paper are supposed to have better players than Tech, but lose more:

OSU
A&M
Nebraska
Mizzou
Kansas State

I'm well aware of what Tech has done against OU and Texas. I bet they won't be 2-12 the next 7 years because the gap has closed quite a bit from 2000. Tech is 29-13 against the rest of the Big 12 since 2000 and I bet that improves over the next 7 years, too.

Only Nebraska, Texas, and Oklahoma have gone to more bowls than Tech. We all know Tech hasn't been a long-time power. They've had their great years in the past and are trying to regain what they once had for a while. They are the team you don't feel comfortable playing and nobody in the Top 25 really wants to take a crack at them in non-conference. That Holiday Bowl a few years ago showed what they can do on their best days. I know some would play Tech if they didn't have to go to Lubbock, but they don't dare risk losing a game in West Texas.

[lonny23]

It's pretty funny. Fans are never satisfied. Fran has to go yells the Aggies. Mack has to go yells some wHorns.

let's just ditch em all!
Maybe we can trade Mack for Fran!:p

[jtk1519]

I'll try to type real slow so you can read this.

Texas has good recruiting classes, huge fan support, and great facilities. That makes them a favorite.

Blah, blah, blah

Learn to read before you respond. What I said was that Tech was overrated in relation to their typical preseason hype and even more typical failures to do anything at all competitive in the South. Did I type that slow enough for you?

Go reclaim your tinfoil hat before the mothership returns.

[Firebird]

I'm going to post two sets of season records-- (A) 1995-1999 and (B) 2002-2006. I'd like you to take a close look at them:

A:
9-3
7-5
6-5
7-4
6-5

B.
9-5
8-5
8-4
9-3
7-5

Take a look at those, and you will see not a whole heck of a lot of difference. Also, keep in mind that Leach has on average played more games (a whopping 14 in 2002-- Leach's first 9 win season), and has never been on bowl probation. Also remember that under Spike Dykes, Tech was well-known for scheduling the nastiest non-conference schedule available: Penn State, Georgia, Nebraska several times. Meanwhile, the other 9 win season under Leach came in a year when Tech teed off against Indiana State, Florida International, and Sam Houston State. However, we'll call that a wash because several seasons Dykes coached in the SWC as compared to the vastly tougher Big 12.

That's not to say that I don't think that Leach has done a better job than Dykes, just facing reality. Under Dykes, Tech would win about 7 games a year, then usually embarrass themselves in a crappy bowl game. Dykes thought bowl games should be "fun".

Under Leach, Tech usually wins somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-8 games a year (a shot at nine when they either play 14 times or schedule three high schools), goes to a slightly better bowl, and usually wins the bowl. That's much better. It would be worth keeping Leach around for the simple fact that Leach actually prepares for bowls. Also, Leach usually beats A&M, although it is a pale imitation of the A&M that Dykes usually faced. Leach is equally impotent against the really big boys of the Big 12.

Also, Leach's offense plays well on TV, plays well on sportscenter, and plays in a bigger conference against better opponents and so Tech gets watched more. Ergo, Tech gets more votes for the top 25 than those other 8-4 teams out there trying to crack the top 25. Dykes played boring football and defense, and played in a disaster of a television conference, and so he almost never sniffed the top 25.

Tech has no doubt made some progress, but it has been pretty incremental. They have a tough row to hoe competing against the likes of UT and OU, not to mention a Texas A&M that one has to believe will eventually wake up a little bit. But it is still possible for him to do more than he has, even in the situation he is in. He needs to start doing it.

[lonny23]

Learn to read before you respond. What I said was that Tech was overrated in relation to their typical preseason hype and even more typical failures to do anything at all competitive in the South. Did I type that slow enough for you?

Go reclaim your tinfoil hat before the mothership returns.
Have you paid attention the fact that they get picked 5th in the South in many years? How many times have they finished 5th under Leach? The guy on ESPN said they were one of the top 5 overachievers in the last decade because they consistently outperformed pre-season expectations. Most years A&M is picked ahead of them and OSU in some years.

[jtk1519]

Tech is capable of more. That's all I'm saying. I know they're not Texas or Mobilhoma, but a lot of "up-and-coming" schools have stared down the giants and prevailed in the long run. Tech has improved some since Spike, but not near as much as a lot of the "talk" would lead one to believe.

[jtk1519]

Most years A&M is picked ahead of them and OSU in some years.

Bull:Censor: and you know it.

[Firebird]

Have you paid attention the fact that they get picked 5th in the South in many years? How many times have they finished 5th under Leach? The guy on ESPN said they were one of the top 5 overachievers in the last decade because they consistently outperformed pre-season expectations. Most years A&M is picked ahead of them and OSU in some years.

The question is, how many years in a row do you finish just a little bit better than your pre-season rankings, and still try to claim overachiever status.

[Firebird]

Tech is capable of more. That's all I'm saying. I know they're not Texas or Mobilhoma, but a lot of "up-and-coming" schools have stared down the giants and prevailed in the long run. Tech has improved some since Spike, but not near as much as a lot of the "talk" would lead one to believe.

Take a look at my post up there where I compare the last 5 years of Spike with the last 5 of Leach. My take

Leach basically gets you to a little bit better bowl, and then doesn't embarass himself. That's about the extent of the improvement. And that alone is worth keeping him around for.

[jtk1519]

And that alone is worth keeping him around for.

I disagree unless mediocrity or just above it is acceptable. It seems to me that if Leach is the head coach most praise him for being, Tech should take demonstrable steps up on a consistent basis and that simply is not happening. Tech, under Leach, is stagnant. Stagnant one step above Spike and I think there should and will come a time when that is simply not good enough.

[lonny23]

I'm going to post two sets of season records-- (A) 1995-1999 and (B) 2002-2006. I'd like you to take a close look at them:

A:
9-3
7-5
6-5
7-4
6-5

B.
9-5
8-5
8-4
9-3
7-5

Take a look at those, and you will see not a whole heck of a lot of difference. Also, keep in mind that Leach has on average played more games (a whopping 14 in 2002-- Leach's first 9 win season), and has never been on bowl probation. Also remember that under Spike Dykes, Tech was well-known for scheduling the nastiest non-conference schedule available: Penn State, Georgia, Nebraska several times. Meanwhile, the other 9 win season under Leach came in a year when Tech teed off against Indiana State, Florida International, and Sam Houston State. However, we'll call that a wash because several seasons Dykes coached in the SWC as compared to the vastly tougher Big 12.

That's not to say that I don't think that Leach has done a better job than Dykes, just facing reality. Under Dykes, Tech would win about 7 games a year, then usually embarrass themselves in a crappy bowl game. Dykes thought bowl games should be "fun".

Under Leach, Tech usually wins somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-8 games a year (a shot at nine when they either play 14 times or schedule three high schools), goes to a slightly better bowl, and usually wins the bowl. That's much better. It would be worth keeping Leach around for the simple fact that Leach actually prepares for bowls. Also, Leach usually beats A&M, although it is a pale imitation of the A&M that Dykes usually faced. Leach is equally impotent against the really big boys of the Big 12.

Also, Leach's offense plays well on TV, plays well on sportscenter, and plays in a bigger conference against better opponents and so Tech gets watched more. Ergo, Tech gets more votes for the top 25 than those other 8-4 teams out there trying to crack the top 25. Dykes played boring football and defense, and played in a disaster of a television conference, and so he almost never sniffed the top 25.

Tech has no doubt made some progress, but it has been pretty incremental. They have a tough row to hoe competing against the likes of UT and OU, not to mention a Texas A&M that one has to believe will eventually wake up a little bit. But it is still possible for him to do more than he has, even in the situation he is in. He needs to start doing it.You should give Leach credit for 8-5 last year. Leach played Ohio State, NC State, and Ole Miss in that 9-5 year in 2002 and NC State and Ole Miss in 2003, too. The schedule started getting weaker in 2004, but that was because nobody wanted to come to Lubbock and Leach wasn't going to have any more of the road show to get a good game.

Tech had scholarship restrictions when Leach took over and he was also trying to change the team identity on the fly. He did well to keep them in bowls the first few years. Leach has been building the team and they were on the upswing until last year. I think it was just a 1 year detour.

Spike started beating A&M before he left. You're right about his bowl games. He was better about beating Texas, but it wasn't the same Texas team Leach plays.

[Firebird]

I disagree unless mediocrity or just above it is acceptable. It seems to me that if Leach is the head coach most praise him for being, Tech should take demonstrable steps up on a consistent basis and that simply is not happening. Tech, under Leach, is stagnant. Stagnant one step above Spike and I think there should and will come a time when that is simply not good enough.

The problem is, when you're Texas Tech, you're always a program teetering on the brink of the next coaching disaster. Texas Tech would have to take gamble on the latest hot young assistant who would do one of two things:

A. Suck, and take Tech two steps back
B. Do much, much better and instantly bolt for greener pastures (Steve Sloan? Anyone?)
C. Do about like Leach does, stick around, and then..what was the point?

Tech's strategy is pretty sound...a fairly consistent top 25 team that gradually puts more and more butts in the seats and seems to be making incremental movements towards becoming more competitive. For a school out on the South Plains, that's doing pretty well for yourself.

[Firebird]

You should give Leach credit for 8-5 last year. Leach played Ohio State, NC State, and Ole Miss in that 9-5 year in 2002 and NC State and Ole Miss in 2003, too. The schedule started getting weaker in 2004, but that was because nobody wanted to come to Lubbock and Leach wasn't going to have any more of the road show to get a good game.

Tech had scholarship restrictions when Leach took over and he was also trying to change the team identity on the fly. He did well to keep them in bowls the first few years. Leach has been building the team and they were on the upswing until last year. I think it was just a 1 year detour.

Spike started beating A&M before he left. You're right about his bowl games. He was better about beating Texas, but it wasn't the same Texas team Leach plays.


I will never give a coach credit for winning games he didn't. That doesn't fly for Firebird. I will give him credit for his real record.

I'll give you that the 2002 season saw some tough teams, but again...they had 14 freaking chances to win 9 games. If Tech stuns some folks and finishes 2nd or better this year in the Big 12 South, I'll start rethinking. The fact that a lot of experts picked them 5th this year, and they will probably finish 3rd, means little because you could really put A&M, OSU, and Tech in a hat at the beginning of they year and just pull one.

[jtk1519]

The problem is, when you're Texas Tech, you're always a program teetering on the brink of the next coaching disaster. Texas Tech would have to take gamble on the latest hot young assistant who would do one of two things:

A. Suck, and take Tech two steps back
B. Do much, much better and instantly bolt for greener pastures (Steve Sloan? Anyone?)
C. Do about like Leach does, stick around, and then..what was the point?

Tech's strategy is pretty sound...a fairly consistent top 25 team that gradually puts more and more butts in the seats and seems to be making incremental movements towards becoming more competitive. For a school out on the South Plains, that's doing pretty well for yourself.

I would agree with that, but eventually there will have to come a time where Leach is either more competitive, or Myers takes that risk and goes after somebody else.

I like Leach a lot. He's probably the best character outside of The Old Ball Coach and only June Jones is a better offensive mind, but Leach has shown absolutely nothing to suggest that he is capable of elevating a program outside of marginal improvements over his predecessor.

[Firebird]

You should give Leach credit for 8-5 last year. Leach played Ohio State, NC State, and Ole Miss in that 9-5 year in 2002 and NC State and Ole Miss in 2003, too. The schedule started getting weaker in 2004, but that was because nobody wanted to come to Lubbock and Leach wasn't going to have any more of the road show to get a good game.

Tech had scholarship restrictions when Leach took over and he was also trying to change the team identity on the fly. He did well to keep them in bowls the first few years. Leach has been building the team and they were on the upswing until last year. I think it was just a 1 year detour.

Spike started beating A&M before he left. You're right about his bowl games. He was better about beating Texas, but it wasn't the same Texas team Leach plays.

BTW, I chose his last 5 years to try and balance out some of the scholi restrictions.

[Firebird]

I would agree with that, but eventually there will have to come a time where Leach is either more competitive, or Myers takes that risk and goes after somebody else.

I like Leach a lot. He's probably the best character outside of The Old Ball Coach and only June Jones is a better offensive mind, but Leach has shown absolutely nothing to suggest that he is capable of elevating a program outside of marginal improvements over his predecessor.

I don't think that will happen. Tech is doing pretty well in the bank department with its program where it is, and I don't see Myers risking that.

If Leach does too much better, then the debate will become pointless...as soon as he mails in a couple ten win seasons, then he'll get an offer he can't refuse.

[lonny23]

Bull:Censor: and you know it.
No, that's true. Even this year, almost everybody had Tech in 5th.

Big 12 Media Picks (BTW, these are better than the magazine picks)

2000
3. A&M
4. Tech- correct
5. OSU

2001
3. A&M
4. Tech- got 3rd
5. OSU

2002
3. Tech- correct
4. A&M
5. OSU

2003
3. OSU
4. A&M
5. Tech- got 4th

2004
3. Tech- 4th
4. OSU
5. A&M

2005
3. A&M
4. Tech- got 2nd
5. OSU

2006
3. Tech- got 4th
4. A&M
5. OSU

2007
3. A&M
4. OSU
5. Tech- It's not going to happen

[lonny23]

I will never give a coach credit for winning games he didn't. That doesn't fly for Firebird. I will give him credit for his real record.

I'll give you that the 2002 season saw some tough teams, but again...they had 14 freaking chances to win 9 games. If Tech stuns some folks and finishes 2nd or better this year in the Big 12 South, I'll start rethinking. The fact that a lot of experts picked them 5th this year, and they will probably finish 3rd, means little because you could really put A&M, OSU, and Tech in a hat at the beginning of they year and just pull one.
They went 8-5. I'm not talking about bad calls or stuff like that.

[jtk1519]

I don't think that will happen. Tech is doing pretty well in the bank department with its program where it is, and I don't see Myers risking that.

If Leach does too much better, then the debate will become pointless...as soon as he mails in a couple ten win seasons, then he'll get an offer he can't refuse.

I agree with what somebody else said in that it is pretty telling that Leach hasn't received a better offer. There are a lot of "better" programs that have been in the market for a new coach in recent years and seemingly none have looked Leach's way. Leach did want to go to Miami badly and you would think given how much they have struggled on offense and the similarities between Leach's offense and Butch Davis', that Miami would have really looked at Leach, but the dance there was more one-sided.

I think schools are looking for a coach that can be a head coach and truly elevate a program and like me, I don't think very many AD's are sold on Leach's ability to do that.

[Firebird]

They went 8-5. I'm not talking about bad calls or stuff like that.

You're correct....my mistake. The site I was looking at listed week by week results, and I didn't scroll all the way down.

[lonny23]

The question is, how many years in a row do you finish just a little bit better than your pre-season rankings, and still try to claim overachiever status.
It's not all about the South. Yes, they've been 2md or 3rd in my books three times and 4th 4 times after breaking head-to-head ties, but it's also about winning bowl games and being better than almost everybody in the North most years. It's also about having more wins than anybody in the Big 12 since 2002 besides OU and Texas. They've been one of the 25 best teams in the U.S. in the last 5 years and that's even after having to play Texas and OU every year, which is not the case for all conferences. They did all this with recruiting classes that were in the bottom 25% of BCS schools.

[Firebird]

I agree with what somebody else said in that it is pretty telling that Leach hasn't received a better offer. There are a lot of "better" programs that have been in the market for a new coach in recent years and seemingly none have looked Leach's way. Leach did want to go to Miami badly and you would think given how much they have struggled on offense and the similarities between Leach's offense and Butch Davis', that Miami would have really looked at Leach, but the dance there was more one-sided.

I think schools are looking for a coach that can be a head coach and truly elevate a program and like me, I don't think very many AD's are sold on Leach's ability to do that.


I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I also think it is telling that Miami ultimatly chose to go with an unproven assistant, from the current undeperforming program, with no previous HC exp.

BUT, if (and that's a big if) Leach could somehow cobble together a few ten win, 2nd or better Big 12 south finishes, then that perception could change. I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility, but I do think it's farther away than Lonny does.

As things stand, you're correct-- if Leach really was the best coach in Texas, he'd no longer be at Texas Tech after seven seasons. The truth hurts.

[lonny23]

I disagree unless mediocrity or just above it is acceptable. It seems to me that if Leach is the head coach most praise him for being, Tech should take demonstrable steps up on a consistent basis and that simply is not happening. Tech, under Leach, is stagnant. Stagnant one step above Spike and I think there should and will come a time when that is simply not good enough.
Here's why they're not stagnant.

1. Until last year, they were getting 1/2 to a game better almost every year.
2. The recruiting has been getting better under Leach.
3. Tech started winning bowls under Leach.
4. Tech started going to better bowls with Leach.
5. Tech started competing with OU and Texas.
6. Tech has started winning more road games in the Big 12.
7. Tech followed up a Holiday Bowl win with a Cotton Bowl.
8. They took a step back last year with the turmoil, but just wait this year.

One bad year does not erase the progress. Tech was pretty much a cinch to get to 7-5 this year without a meltdown. I expect a win on Saturday and that bumps things up to 8-4. Provided they can beat A&M in Lubbock once again, that's 9-3. I said going into the year they'd win at least 10 games and that would be progress.

[lonny23]

I agree with what somebody else said in that it is pretty telling that Leach hasn't received a better offer. There are a lot of "better" programs that have been in the market for a new coach in recent years and seemingly none have looked Leach's way. Leach did want to go to Miami badly and you would think given how much they have struggled on offense and the similarities between Leach's offense and Butch Davis', that Miami would have really looked at Leach, but the dance there was more one-sided.

I think schools are looking for a coach that can be a head coach and truly elevate a program and like me, I don't think very many AD's are sold on Leach's ability to do that.
I think it's mainly because Leach isn't a cookie-cutter coach that looks like a CEO. I want puke everytime I see Tressell.

[Firebird]

Here's why they're not stagnant.

1. Until last year, they were getting 1/2 to a game better almost every year.
2. The recruiting has been getting better under Leach.
3. Tech started winning bowls under Leach.
4. Tech started going to better bowls with Leach.
5. Tech started competing with OU and Texas.
6. Tech has started winning more road games in the Big 12.
7. Tech followed up a Holiday Bowl win with a Cotton Bowl.
8. They took a step back last year with the turmoil, but just wait this year.

One bad year does not erase the progress. Tech was pretty much a cinch to get to 7-5 this year without a meltdown. I expect a win on Saturday and that bumps things up to 8-4. Provided they can beat A&M in Lubbock once again, that's 9-3. I said going into the year they'd win at least 10 games and that would be progress.

Tech had a close game last year, a win in 2002, and some butt-kickings. They have not been competing with Texas. They have gotten a bit closer to OU, which is looking to change this year.

[lonny23]

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I also think it is telling that Miami ultimatly chose to go with an unproven assistant, from the current undeperforming program, with no previous HC exp.

BUT, if (and that's a big if) Leach could somehow cobble together a few ten win, 2nd or better Big 12 south finishes, then that perception could change. I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility, but I do think it's farther away than Lonny does.

As things stand, you're correct-- if Leach really was the best coach in Texas, he'd no longer be at Texas Tech after seven seasons. The truth hurts.
Sometimes it's just a case of teams not being ready to buy out the old coach. What we don't know is how many teams were interested in Leach before that he didn't care for. They wouldn't be giving him $2M a year if they didn't think he wasn't somebody to keep. He has to pay $500K to Tech if he leaves. They know there is a risk he could bolt.

[lonny23]

Tech had a close game last year, a win in 2002, and some butt-kickings. They have not been competing with Texas. They have gotten a bit closer to OU, which is looking to change this year.
Tech won in 2002.
Many say they should've won in 2003.
Vince Young killed them for the next 2 years.
Tech should've won last year.

2007 will be more like 2002, 2003, and 2006 than 2004-2005.

Tech will do fine vs. OU.

[jtk1519]

Tech won in 2002.
Many say they should've won in 2003.
Vince Young killed them for the next 2 years.
Tech should've won last year.

2007 will be more like 2002, 2003, and 2006 than 2004-2005.

Tech will do fine vs. OU.

There are a lot of "should'ves" in your posts. Just how long does Leach have to turn those "should'ves" into "dids"? This is what I'm talking about. Lots of talk, but little subtance. Tech should be doing a lot of things, but they just aren't.

[PaulinPlano]

I said it before, but I'll say it again. I like Mack as UT coach. I like having somebody over there that makes excuses everytime you play bad. You might goof up and find somebody better. Keep Mack.

I know some are going to say he beats Tech, but I'm a firm believer that Texas' days of beating Tech every year are numbered and Mack will help.

You need to take off those Tech colored sun glasses!:D

[PaulinPlano]

I personally think they should just drop the football program, period. DKR can be turned into a really cool concert venue.

Just give the stadium to Austin ISD.

I want the HD video board!:p

[PaulinPlano]

Mack needs to go because Texas could've gotten a better coach to start with. He's not even the best in the state or #2.

He is a great recruiter and manager of people. He as others who take care of the Xs and Os but he IS involved in that as well and is in charge of the direction.

Texas is a huge operation and he runs it very well.

[PaulinPlano]

Texas could run the table, but I doubt they do it. The way they've been playing so far, they look like they'll lose to OU and Tech. I'll give them the Nebraska, A&M, K-State, and OSU games as wins even though they're more than capable of losing them.

OU looks very stong this year. They have to be the B12S favorite.

Tech has a shot.

[lonny23]

There are a lot of "should'ves" in your posts. Just how long does Leach have to turn those "should'ves" into "dids"? This is what I'm talking about. Lots of talk, but little subtance. Tech should be doing a lot of things, but they just aren't.
I don't have an exact number on time. For me personally, I expect Tech to turn the corner. I won't be happy if they don't turn the corner. I can honestly say that there aren't too many coaches that I'd rather have in Lubbock who have head coaching experience right now. I haven't scoured the assistant ranks.

Don't get the story wrong. The should'ves are Texas winning those games and more games. Texas can't overachieve because they have everything they need to hope to be #1 every year except they don't have a coach who's going to get it done.

The fact that Tech can be in a position to beat Texas says a lot about what Tech has done as a program, but it says just as much about what Texas hasn't done.

[lonny23]

OU looks very stong this year. They have to be the B12S favorite.

Tech has a shot.
I agree. All I'm saying is Tech has a shot in this deal. They have a shot to get a BCS game.

[unbiasedobserver]

My apologies Lonnie on the misreading of your posts. I misread the paragraph concerning how long they had been assitants. Good find on the lists of underacheiving teams.
I still think is will be almost impossible for Tech to get to a BCS bowl. The bowls are to some degree a popularity contest. Who brings a crowd, and who brings a television audience. Ocassionally someone will force thier way in with a no loss season like Boise State, but otherwise it is going to be the biggest schools with the largest national appeal. If Tech losses two games then they will not be considered unless of course OKlahoma lands the NC game.

[Firebird]

My apologies Lonnie on the misreading of your posts. I misread the paragraph concerning how long they had been assitants. Good find on the lists of underacheiving teams.
I still think is will be almost impossible for Tech to get to a BCS bowl. The bowls are to some degree a popularity contest. Who brings a crowd, and who brings a television audience. Ocassionally someone will force thier way in with a no loss season like Boise State, but otherwise it is going to be the biggest schools with the largest national appeal. If Tech losses two games then they will not be considered unless of course OKlahoma lands the NC game.

Tech's chances, unlike Boise's, are largely in its own hands. All Tech has to do is win the conference and they are in. The BCS has a pretty good record of getting in two good Big 12 teams, so if Tech only lost to the eventual champ, and played them well, then they'd have a legit shot.

I think you're right that a two loss Tech team is almost outside the bubble for BCS. A one loss Tech team would stand a good shot.

But for Tech, winning the Big 12 or even dropping only one game is a tall order.

[lonny23]

Tech's chances, unlike Boise's, are largely in its own hands. All Tech has to do is win the conference and they are in. The BCS has a pretty good record of getting in two good Big 12 teams, so if Tech only lost to the eventual champ, and played them well, then they'd have a legit shot.

I think you're right that a two loss Tech team is almost outside the bubble for BCS. A one loss Tech team would stand a good shot.

But for Tech, winning the Big 12 or even dropping only one game is a tall order.
A 1-loss Tech team is in.

A 2-loss Tech team needs help. The first thing they need is to either beat the Texas/OU loser and/or finish 2nd in the South. Even then, it will come down to how many other 10-2 or better teams are out there, but Notre Dame being down helps a lot. Tech would go to the Gator Bowl at 10-2 if they didn't get a BCS bid and that was my original pick for the year.

[dragonsdaddy]

as the president of the keep mack fund, i vote he stays, forever.

[Mhs06]

I agree. All I'm saying is Tech has a shot in this deal. They have a shot to get a BCS game.

With some of the weaknesses currently in the Big 12 South, I agree this is Tech's year to do something if they are ever going to do anything. With weak secondary's all around (except OU's, which is going to be a HUGE test) there is time to capitalize.

However, I'm sure Texas Tech's defense will have its struggles (as it usually does), but for whatever reason the defense has been playing hotter and more aggressive in the 2nd half....I just wish they could play second half ball the whole game.

[lonny23]

as the president of the keep mack fund, i vote he stays, forever.
I'll donate, too.

[lonny23]

With some of the weaknesses currently in the Big 12 South, I agree this is Tech's year to do something if they are ever going to do anything. With weak secondary's all around (except OU's, which is going to be a HUGE test) there is time to capitalize.

However, I'm sure Texas Tech's defense will have its struggles (as it usually does), but for whatever reason the defense has been playing hotter and more aggressive in the 2nd half....I just wish they could play second half ball the whole game.
Tech has more depth than the teams they've been playing. The increased depth on defense over the early Leach years is paying off with better 2nd halves. It sure beats getting pounded in the 3rd and 4th like the past.

[Mean DT]

As much as i like Mack Brown as a person the program has gotten out of hand. I dont care what people say disipline starts with the coaches and CLEARLY we have lost that. James henrey needs to be the Straw that breaks the camels back, Mack needs to step down he can no longer run this program, Texas is just becoming a running joke for people. Ifi have to read one more thread about one of our players being arrested i think my head might explode.The players are not little kids. At some point in life your accountable for your own actions.