Public/Private kind of thing.

[Redneckn]

I recently hijacked a thread and wasnt really meaning to. So I decided to kind of bring it over here in my own yard instead.

I have taken the liberty of pasting the text from the last message having to do with the public private thing...
Here goes..

The Texas public and private schools can compete (including 4A and 5A) in predistrict games. But unless you belong to the UIL, you aren’t going to be put in a district, or be eligible to compete in the post season for UIL state titles. The two Jesuit school (having to play as independents and not belonging to TAPPS, because of their size) sued to belong to UIL. Many of us regret the day that UIL agreed to let these two privates into the UIL. But ( the short story is) the uil decided that letting in the two Jesuits was better than the prolonged (my description) court battle that was going to come from resisting.


Why does it matter? I mean, why would the UIL fight this? It's only 2 teams.. But even if it were 25 teams, the more the merrier right? That is my way of thinking anyway.

I guess I just dont understand why people would want to keep teams from competing...

[StormingCowboy]

Whether true or false, private schools have a reputation of recruiting, where as with public schools you play for the school in your area(supposedly).

It just seems more pure that way rather than having a team that was "put together" to dominate year after year.

IMO

[SeguinMatadors]

I recently hijacked a thread and wasnt really meaning to. So I decided to kind of bring it over here in my own yard instead.

I have taken the liberty of pasting the text from the last message having to do with the public private thing...
Here goes..

The Texas public and private schools can compete (including 4A and 5A) in predistrict games. But unless you belong to the UIL, you aren’t going to be put in a district, or be eligible to compete in the post season for UIL state titles. The two Jesuit school (having to play as independents and not belonging to TAPPS, because of their size) sued to belong to UIL. Many of us regret the day that UIL agreed to let these two privates into the UIL. But ( the short story is) the uil decided that letting in the two Jesuits was better than the prolonged (my description) court battle that was going to come from resisting.


Why does it matter? I mean, why would the UIL fight this? It's only 2 teams.. But even if it were 25 teams, the more the merrier right? That is my way of thinking anyway.

I guess I just dont understand why people would want to keep teams from competing...


Are the two private schools required to abide by all of the UIL practice rules and what not? If not, it would be an unfair advantage.

[Redneckn]

Are the two private schools required to abide by all of the UIL practice rules and what not? If not, it would be an unfair advantage.


Thats a good question. I copied and pasted that from another poster on another thread. But I'm sure somebody here will know...

I hope you all arent getting sick of me and my questions.. I am just really wanting to learn how the system over here works..

[KT2000]

One of the main points of going to a private school in the first place is to be separated from the public schools. So, as far as I'm concerned the private schools can play in their own little "VIP lounge" and stay out of the public arena. They want the best of both worlds, so to speak, but you can't have everything.

I'm completely against having private schools in the UIL. Redneckn, if you knew the entire story about how Strake and Dallas Jesuit got into the UIL you'd understand my viewpoint a little better, but it's not the entire basis of my dislike of public and private schools playing together.

An "overzealous" attorney named Joe Nixon (and parent of a private school student-athlete at the time...a football player) threatened the UIL with a lawsuit if they didn't allow the Jesuits into the league, and that's why the UIL fought it. Nixon basically kicked the door down and said "let us in or I'll have you locked up in a legal mess you can't comprehend." He spearheaded the entire "crusade."

[Tut]

Undersized facilities and a lack of girls teams are two more reasons not to have them. :mad:

[Lobo9498]

Leave it to an ECA fan to bring up the private vs public. They've been going round n round in LA about the private vs public schools. I say let the privates play other private schools and stay out of the UIL. Although, I will say that Dallas Jesuit had a very impressive team last year when Longview played, and won, against them in the playoffs. Just like ECA has had some very impressive teams....BUT, just how did they come about with those players. We coudl go on and on all day. I do find it funny though that earlier this year, when the Bears were playing on TV, Rex Grossman listed his hometown as somewhere in Indiana....NOT Shreveport. I think even Brock Berlin had his hometown listed as Shreveport. Arnez Battle does as well. But, I think Arnez came from a public school in Shreveport, so he wasn't "recruited" from out of state. Just a few observations. I'm not going to get into it any further, b/c the private vs public stuff has been played out so much recently. It gets old and nobody will agree, except to disagree.

[Redneckn]

KT.. I can kind of understand.. But I mean, I do understand not wanting kids in public schools.. And wanting them to be able to play football.. I dont think it is about seperation of anything but the education. That's the way I see it.

If it were up to me, and its not since my kids live with Xwife, I would rather my childrent attend private schools. I think the education (usually) is better at a private. And for some people, the fact that a private can be bible based is an important factor.

Me personally, I attended both at various points in my schooling career. I think I learned more at privates, but that could be due to a wide variety of reasons..


I guess my take on it is that work (school) and play (sports) are seperate things.

[Redneckn]

Leave it to someobody from Longview to bring ECA into a thread when it has nothing to do with ECA.

I'm just asking questions.. Trying to learn how things work over here..
If you dont wish to participate in the discussion, then dont. I am asking questions because I dont know and am curious as to how and why thinks work the way they do here.

So you are aware.. Brock Berlin was born in Shreveport. They lived in Florida for short time while he was in grade school..
But dont let that stop you from saying otherwise.. I'm sure you dont want something like the truth getting in the way.

[Lobo9498]

Redneckin, I knew you'd get riled up over that. I just thought it was funny that an ECA supporter would ask that question, when this topic has gone back and forth in LA for several years now. I don't agree with the privates playing the publics. I guess it would've only made you more upset if I was a West Monroe fan.

[Redneckn]

Redneckin, I knew you'd get riled up over that. I just thought it was funny that an ECA supporter would ask that question, when this topic has gone back and forth in LA for several years now. I don't agree with the privates playing the publics. I guess it would've only made you more upset if I was a West Monroe fan.


Now why on earth would try and get me all riled up?

A west Who fan? Oh wait.. you mean that powder puff team from the east side of Louisiana..haha..

I'm just curious about it is all.. I know back home it is a highly debated conversation. But most of it as this point is just people hurling insults (on various levels) back and forth. I just think that it should be ok as long as both parties are going to follow the same rules..

[FootballJunkie]

KT.. I can kind of understand.. But I mean, I do understand not wanting kids in public schools.. And wanting them to be able to play football.. I dont think it is about seperation of anything but the education. That's the way I see it.

If it were up to me, and its not since my kids live with Xwife, I would rather my childrent attend private schools. I think the education (usually) is better at a private. And for some people, the fact that a private can be bible based is an important factor.

Me personally, I attended both at various points in my schooling career. I think I learned more at privates, but that could be due to a wide variety of reasons..


I guess my take on it is that work (school) and play (sports) are seperate things.


I don't think it has anything to do with getting an education it has to do with the advantage the private school would have because they do not have the districting guidelines that the public schools have thus they could recruit a "super team" by having this advantage. If they can do this or not I don't know but I believe that was the argument.

[KT2000]

I refer to threads like this as "kerosene." Sure fire starters. ;)

[Redneckn]

I refer to threads like this as "kerosene." Sure fire starters. ;)



If you really think it's going to turn into that, please take it away or lock it. I dont want to get everybody all riled up. I enjoy coming here and yapping back and forth with you all and I dont want to be the cause of a problem.

[Lobo9498]

Redneckin, I was in no way trying to get you riled up. And, you remember West Monroe, the only other "major player" in LA 5A football over the last several years. As for what I think, as I stated above I don't believe privates should play publics, unless during non-district. IF a private wants to join the UIL, it must follow ALL UIL rules, including boundaries. But, boundaries are a bit touchy with privates. Where do the boundaries get set? 5 mile radius? 10? The city? The county? The state? Where do they stop? If the private was within the boundaries of another school, which is likely, does the private follow the same boundaries as the neighbor school? I guess only time will tell if the experiment works or not. If either Jesuit becomes a major power year after year, people might truly be up in arms as they are in LA. BUT, given the talent in the public schools in Texas, especially at the 5A level, I don't see either Jesuit school becoming a major power year after year. If they make the playoffs, great, but I don't see them winning a 5A title EVERY year. The talent is just too deep. There have been very few public 5A schools that have repeated as champions for more than 2 years consecutively. SLC has a chance this year, but they are just the most recent in the long line of good teams.

[KT2000]

If you really think it's going to turn into that, please take it away or lock it. I dont want to get everybody all riled up. I enjoy coming here and yapping back and forth with you all and I dont want to be the cause of a problem.

It won't be a problem as long as people keep things civil. Obviously, this is a very sensitive topic in this state as I'm sure you know.

[Redneckn]

Redneckin, I was in no way trying to get you riled up. And, you remember West Monroe, the only other "major player" in LA 5A football over the last several years. As for what I think, as I stated above I don't believe privates should play publics, unless during non-district. IF a private wants to join the UIL, it must follow ALL UIL rules, including boundaries. But, boundaries are a bit touchy with privates. Where do the boundaries get set? 5 mile radius? 10? The city? The county? The state? Where do they stop? If the private was within the boundaries of another school, which is likely, does the private follow the same boundaries as the neighbor school? I guess only time will tell if the experiment works or not. If either Jesuit becomes a major power year after year, people might truly be up in arms as they are in LA. BUT, given the talent in the public schools in Texas, especially at the 5A level, I don't see either Jesuit school becoming a major power year after year. If they make the playoffs, great, but I don't see them winning a 5A title EVERY year. The talent is just too deep. There have been very few public 5A schools that have repeated as champions for more than 2 years consecutively. SLC has a chance this year, but they are just the most recent in the long line of good teams.


So what you're saying is that it's ok as long as the Jesuits are losing? Or ok as long as they are not beating any "good" teams?


I do agree that privates should have to pull from the same area they school is in though. If for no other reason than to keep the discussion from going there.

No, I knew you were teasing earlier and I took it as that.. :)

[poppy]

So you are aware.. Brock Berlin was born in Shreveport. They lived in Florida for short time while he was in grade school..
But dont let that stop you from saying otherwise.. I'm sure you dont want something like the truth getting in the way.[/QUOTE]


no doubt the truth will set you free...
it won't be long now and dallas and houston jusuit will rule
just like evangel christain did for so many years...
you see the same thing in basketball...all the nationally
ranked schools are private and the players are recruited..
won't be long and slc won't rule dallas area anymore... ;)

[mad_fan]

So from what I've read, the UIL has lost control of who's in and who's out. So, the next logical step would be for Dallas (and SA and Houston) area schools to give a thumbs down to the UIL and form their own conferences. All the rest will fall into other conferences. Then we'll have a bunch of conferences, some independents, and even more debate over who's the Texas HS champion. If that's the plan we'll have even more fun on this board.

[FootballJunkie]

no doubt the truth will set you free...
it won't be long now and dallas and houston jusuit will rule
just like evangel christain did for so many years...
you see the same thing in basketball...all the nationally
ranked schools are private and the players are recruited..
won't be long and slc won't rule dallas area anymore... ;)[/QUOTE]





Sort of like Oak Hill Academy in Va does in basketball.

[Lobo9498]

Redneckin, I doubt that either Jesuit school will EVER reach the heights that ECA has in LA just because the quality of the teams they have to play. The quality and talent is much better in Texas. And, yes, I guess you could say that as long as they aren't winning every year, it's ok. Because as long as they aren't winning every year by cheating the system and not playing by the same rules, then people will disagree. BUT, if they're made to follow the same rules, everyone should have a somewhat level playing field. We will see what happens over time, but I seriously doubt Texas HS football will become like what they have gotten in LA.

As for the UIL dissolving, I doubt that will happen. The UIL controls not just football, but all extracurricular activities really. I hope the UIL doesn't ever dissolve and we end up with various conferences. That would make Texas HS football a joke in my opinion. It is in no way a joke now. I think we have a good system going. I don't see too many private schools coming into the fold.

[Joboots]

I recall an interview with former Katy coach Mike Johnston after taking over
at Houston Christian,he had hinted that the school might make the leap to
the UIL in 'bout 3-4 years-given his long track record,would anyone be
suprised if they did?

[farmerfan]

I recall an interview with former Katy coach Mike Johnston after taking over
at Houston Christian,he had hinted that the school might make the leap to
the UIL in 'bout 3-4 years-given his long track record,would anyone be
suprised if they did?


I would. Schools like Houston Christian, Second Baptist, Liberty, FW Christian, Midland Christian and many more are happy in TAPPS. Its the larger catholic schools that would be willing to make the jump into the UIL. What Tapps should do is reduce the number of divisions and combine Division 1 and 2, which used to be TAPPS 4A and 5A, there are only 4 districts in each TAPPS classification, and they could make it more competitive by adding the larger divisions into one super division. I think you will see TAPPS do that before schools like Houston Christian and Second Baptist go into the UIL. The schools most likely to go into the UIL would be Bishop Lynch and SA Central Catholic and maybe a school like Beaumont Kelly or ST Pius and ST Thomas.

[Redneckn]

Lobo.. I guess that is my point.. If all included schools were playing by the same set of rules, would the publicly minded people still have a problem with it? My own opinion is that they would.. But that is another topic all together.

Yes, what Lousiana has is a f-ing mess. Sorry to be so blunt, but that is exactly what it is. You cant make 2 (or more) sets of rules and then expect people to not get angry over it.

I'm really not as irritated as I appear about ECA being forced back into 1A.
I mainly just dont agree with how it went down.. I would be happier if there in a private league. The whole state knows that nobody in Louisiana can beat them (with any real consistancy) anyway.
I think they should go to MPSA and dominate that for a while. Piss off the fine folks of Mississippi for a while.. :D


I am glad this discussion hasnt turned into a free4all. Because I really havent had much of a clue about how things work here in Texas. I just know "hook 'em" is a common term.. Some little community college down 35 from me seems to think they are destined for #1 and I know the high school teams around Austin are said to play good games of flag football.. :eek:


No really though, I find what you all say informative and entertaining.. It helps my day at work go by when the phones aren't ringing. I read most of the posts on this board, I lurk a lot.

[dragonsdaddy]

i can see the day in the near future when an altruistic entrepenour will see fit to start/develop a program like eca, and build it around uil state-championships. an existing school like arlington grace prep could easily decide that attracting students who happen to be outstanding athletes, and overwhelming a great high school coach with money would make good business sense. an established coaching monster like schroeder who is available could be a good start. finding a bevy of assts who happen to have great sons, and offering schollies to the best looking freshmen to be in the metromess could jump start the process. it isn't far fetched at all, and i predict it has already been discussed and may even be in the works some where. actually, creating a basketball factory would be the easiest first step as you don't need as many players. the uil will wring their hands over it, and come down hard with the decision that there is nothing they can do about it.

[Lobo9498]

For the sake of Texas HS football, I hope that NEVER happens. That would make the great football we have here look like a joke to everyone else.

[Redneckn]

I think it is possible to happen in Texas. But only in the same way that one has a chance to be struck by lightning.

The reason why it happens in Louisiana is money. At a public, a coach doesnt just coach. And he isnt paid all that much. At a private, (usually) all tha coach does is coach. And if he's good, he's paid for it.

The ISD's in Texas do not seem to really have the money woes that most publics in Louisiana have. Texas schools seem to have a pretty substantial budget to work with. I think that is why privates in Texas do not rise in the way they tend to in other places. As long as publics are putting the cash down, the coaches will coach publics.

There was story in the Shreveport Times on this a few weeks back and I may have posted the link.. I dont recall though. Perhaps I can still find it.. Later though...

All in all, I think Texas publics have a system in place that seems to work so the only reason I could see anybody want to fool with it would be for some kind of jelousy or personal gain.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Public schools rock....Private schools wish they did!

[farmerfan]

i can see the day in the near future when an altruistic entrepenour will see fit to start/develop a program like eca, and build it around uil state-championships. an existing school like arlington grace prep could easily decide that attracting students who happen to be outstanding athletes, and overwhelming a great high school coach with money would make good business sense. an established coaching monster like schroeder who is available could be a good start. finding a bevy of assts who happen to have great sons, and offering schollies to the best looking freshmen to be in the metromess could jump start the process. it isn't far fetched at all, and i predict it has already been discussed and may even be in the works some where. actually, creating a basketball factory would be the easiest first step as you don't need as many players. the uil will wring their hands over it, and come down hard with the decision that there is nothing they can do about it.

you have some great points, mentioning Grace Prep in there is a accurate assumption. However I have heard through some sources that their head coach Mike Barber might be looking to leave after this year. If he does it will be interesting to see if Grace Prep will fall off.

As far as the basketball factory goes, it already exisits, it is located in Houston, a team called Westbury Christian. They have been the dominate private school basketball program of TAPPS for the last decade.

I still have a hard time believing that those schools would abandon TAPPS, I still think TAPPS will eventually combine the two biggest divisions to make for a more competitive football and overall athletic atmosphere. I know as a alumni of Liberty Christian I would not want to see them join the UIL and I am about 99.9% sure that they wont. If Liberty does not join then a lot of the others won either.