My Attitude About Barry Bonds

[78 Spartan]

I know there's a thread on this topic, but I wanted to use a poll to see what the membership thinks overall. I am trying to be fair with the way I describe each option.

Personally, if I had a Hall of Fame vote, I'd put Bonds in the HOF on the first ballot. He was a great enough ballplayer before he roided up to have gotten in, anyway. So I definitely respect his baseball talent. Right now he's obviously past his prime but would be able to extend his career another year or two if he got to the AL where he could be a DH. He's obviously a liability in the field and on the basepaths.

I don't respect him near as much as I respect Henry Aaron. Not only did Aaron do his thing under more adverse societal circumstances, and not only did Aaron face far better pitching and play in larger ballparks in his day, but I also just respect the way Aaron has handled himself. Bonds by contrast walks around with his self-pity out there for everyone to see.

So I say no asterisk to his career accomplishment, hello HOF, but I could find lots of better role models for my kids.

[slorch]

i voted #4 because it is the closest to my feelings. I wouldn't take this record from him, because from pine tar to nail files to corked bats, this game has been a game for cheats for a long, long time.

I just don't care for the attitude, followed by the victim speeches, followed by the guilt trip, followed by more boorishness. The guy will always be a loser in my book. Some folks will laugh at this, but I admire a team player hitting .201 like Brad Ausmus infinitely more than a self-serving moron like Bonds.

[CyFallsMom]

just don't like the guy. He is arrogant and fairly racist (and that's bad no matter WHO you are or what color/religion/race you are). Do I think he deserves some accolades? Sure - so did McGwire and Clemens but both are also under the umbrella of suspicion as well as many others. They can't all be Biggio!! And if someone says he's been imbibing - my gosh look at that skinny thing!

[ktchamp97]

I didn't vote, because I didn't find a category that captured my feelings:

I think he's a total jerk. I have great respect for his talent, because it is undeniable; however, I find it hard to respect that he's now the all-time leader in home runs. I would feel the same way if Giambi or any of the other cheaters had just broken the record.

In fact, my overall interest in baseball has gone down the toilet the past few years. I haven't watched a single complete 9-inning game since the Astros were in the World Series and I'm not sure what could bring me back as a fan at this point.

[dragonsdaddy]

I didn't vote, because I didn't find a category that captured my feelings:

I think he's a total jerk. I have great respect for his talent, because it is undeniable; however, I find it hard to respect that he's now the all-time leader in home runs. I would feel the same way if Giambi or any of the other cheaters had just broken the record.

In fact, my overall interest in baseball has gone down the toilet the past few years. I haven't watched a single complete 9-inning game since the Astros were in the World Series and I'm not sure what could bring me back as a fan at this point.
it is almost like baseball is trying to become as relevant as reality tv or the octagon.

[lonny23]

Bonds has always had talent and deserves to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

Yes, he probably cheated. So did pretty much everybody else out there.

I used to despise Bonds, but I grew to like him more and more as time went by.

I voted #1.

[SteerPride09]

I voted he was a cheat.

[RPM]

but I could find lots of better role models for my kids.

how about parents for role models...why look elsewhere...:confused:

[RPM]

i voted 3...glad he broke it so i can stop hearing all this whinning about BB but i really dont care for him as a person..not because i dont like him but because im not really into baseball...breaking the record is an accomplishment though...

[dragonsdaddy]

Bonds has always had talent and deserves to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

Yes, he probably cheated. So did pretty much everybody else out there.

I used to despise Bonds, but I grew to like him more and more as time went by.

I voted #1.

what is there to "like" about bonds? he's surly, self-centered, unrepentant, and generally anti-social. unless he's homering for your team, and you don't care so much about winning, he's not likeable. and he still holds the record for the worst throw from the outfield in major league history. it looked like he was competing in the egg-toss at the family reunion.

[dragonsdaddy]

one barometer of fans support/acceptance is asking people whether they'll be naming their kids after barry. outside of sf, NO ONE would. i'd be willing to bet there are plenty of hank/henry's all across these united states named after aaron.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

just don't like the guy. He is arrogant and fairly racist (and that's bad no matter WHO you are or what color/religion/race you are). Do I think he deserves some accolades? Sure - so did McGwire and Clemens but both are also under the umbrella of suspicion as well as many others. They can't all be Biggio!! And if someone says he's been imbibing - my gosh look at that skinny thing!

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2002/08/07/image517871x.jpg
I'm sure Barry is a racist... his Ex-wife (Sun Bonds, above) is also sure! So sure, that she called him the "N" word many times, in plublic... just to demean him.

Weird. Barry the racist, married to a closet-racist white-chick (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1995/12/21/MN72411.DTL)!!! LOL!! :D

[K-Rock]

one barometer of fans support/acceptance is asking people whether they'll be naming their kids after barry. outside of sf, NO ONE would. i'd be willing to bet there are plenty of hank/henry's all across these united states named after aaron.

You really don't know everyone in or outside of San Francisco, so you really wouldn't know what people's feelings are about Bonds. Just because you don't like the guy, doesn't mean others don't.

Bonds has fans out there. Did you watch the press conference after the game? He was great. He is a funny guy and likes to talk trash about the media. I like him and I don't live in San Francisco. I don't think I would name any of my kids Barry, but that has nothing to do with Bonds.

I like Bonds, I have followed his career since he was with the Pirates. Great ball player. One of the most dominate players to ever play the game.

[dragonsdaddy]

You really don't know everyone in or outside of San Francisco, so you really wouldn't know what people's feelings are about Bonds. Just because you don't like the guy, doesn't mean others don't.

Bonds has fans out there. Did you watch the press conference after the game? He was great. He is a funny guy and likes to talk trash about the media. I like him and I don't live in San Francisco. I don't think I would name any of my kids Barry, but that has nothing to do with Bonds.

I like Bonds, I have followed his career since he was with the Pirates. Great ball player. One of the most dominate players to ever play the game.

i may be wrong, but i also despise all ir"reality" tv and wrestling/octagon fighting. i wouldn't be surprised if wrestling afficionados also appreciate the roided up jacka that is bb. i pray the media can let this die a much belated death and he goes away never to be heard from again.

[Dawg Fan]

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2002/08/07/image517871x.jpg
I'm sure Barry is a racist... his Ex-wife (Sun Bonds, above) is also sure! So sure, that she called him the "N" word many times, in plublic... just to demean him.

Weird. Barry the racist, married to a closet-racist white-chick (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1995/12/21/MN72411.DTL)!!! LOL!! :D

he did say fairly racist. The sad thing is I think just about everyone says or does things that can be considered fairly racist. I just know Bonds is a jerk but that is his right.

[78 Spartan]

how about parents for role models...why look elsewhere...:confused:

Charles Barkley and Barry Bonds and others can deny that they are role models, but the fact is that millions of kids idolize star athletes and try to pattern themselves after them. So the way they behave has a very broad impact on our youth. They can deny that they have any responsibility to the young people that comes along with that stardom. But in my mind, when they do so, they are being irresponsible, and it affects how I feel about them.

Of course, parents have the responsibility to raise their kids. But with all the electronic media out there bombarding our kids with a million messages a day, we shouldn't ignore the influence that celebrities have on our kids. So I celebrate those guys who take that responsibility seriously, and I resent those guys who don't.

[Drake]

Barry Bonds now holds the record for the most home runs, but that doesn't mean he's the greatest homerun hitter of all time. Babe Ruth is far and away the greatest of all-time. Babe sometimes hit more homeruns than some TEAMS during his era and usually twice as many per season as the next closest player.

Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are two more I consider greater, but it's all debatable. I guess I lean towards the players whose homeruns and dugout presence actually meant something, like pennants and championships, to their team.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Barry Bonds now holds the record for the most home runs, but that doesn't mean he's the greatest homerun hitter of all time. Babe Ruth is far and away the greatest of all-time. Babe sometimes hit more homeruns than some TEAMS during his era and usually twice as many per season as the next closest player.
Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are two more I consider greater, but it's all debatable. I guess I lean towards the players whose homeruns and dugout presence actually meant something, like pennants and championships, to their team.

Babe Ruth played in a racist era, and not against the best baseball players in the world... but against the best white baseball players in America. Him hitting more homeruns than entire TEAMS could mean enitre TEAMS sucked. Bonds may have used steroids, but he DID play against the best baseball players of his era (world). Ruth didn't use steroids, but he only played against the best WHITE baseball players in America.

Sorry, Babe had a warped playing-field, just like Bonds.

[78 Spartan]

Baker's dozen best power hitters of all time:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Willie Mays
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Lou Gehrig
6. Henry Aaron
7. Joe DiMaggio
8. Jimmy Foxx
9. Barry Bonds
10. Hank Greenberg
11. Stan Musial
12. Frank Robinson
13. Rogers Hornsby

[RedRage00]

I like him just because he plays for San Francisco! :D lol jk

Honestly, I don't follow MLB enough to know what's going on lol

I don't really care.

RR

[whs08]

Barry Bonds now holds the record for the most home runs, but that doesn't mean he's the greatest homerun hitter of all time. Babe Ruth is far and away the greatest of all-time. Babe sometimes hit more homeruns than some TEAMS during his era and usually twice as many per season as the next closest player.

Mickey Mantle and Reggie Jackson are two more I consider greater, but it's all debatable. I guess I lean towards the players whose homeruns and dugout presence actually meant something, like pennants and championships, to their team.

Funny that you didn't mention Hank Aaron.:rolleyes:

[Drake]

Babe Ruth played in a racist era, and not against the best baseball players in the world... but against the best white baseball players in America. Him hitting more homeruns than entire TEAMS could mean enitre TEAMS sucked. Bonds may have used steroids, but he DID play against the best baseball players of his era (world). Ruth didn't use steroids, but he only played against the best WHITE baseball players in America.

Sorry, Babe had a warped playing-field, just like Bonds. That contention is silly because 95% of Barry Bond's HRs were hit off of white dudes! :D

[78 Spartan]

I guess it would have been fun to see if Satchel Paige would have "owned" Babe Ruth. We can all speculate on that one.

It is hard to overlook the fact that Ruth hit more homers than some ENTIRE TEAMS, and that he often won the HR crown by a factor of 200% or more.

That is unheard of. Sure, he played in a segregated world, but do we argue that Ted Williams was not a great hitter because he didn't face the best African-American pitchers?

[dragonsdaddy]

I guess it would have been fun to see if Satchel Paige would have "owned" Babe Ruth. We can all speculate on that one.

It is hard to overlook the fact that Ruth hit more homers than some ENTIRE TEAMS, and that he often won the HR crown by a factor of 200% or more.

That is unheard of. Sure, he played in a segregated world, but do we argue that Ted Williams was not a great hitter because he didn't face the best African-American pitchers?

barry doesn't have to face the best black players either as very very few are playing baseball. it has become almost as racially one-sided (hispanic excepted) as the pre-jr days.

[t-long20]

Funny that you didn't mention Hank Aaron.:rolleyes:

yea it is funny he didnt mention him hey i guess he is a rascist:p

[ThEgReAtOnE]

That contention is silly because 95% of Barry Bond's HRs were hit off of white dudes! :D

Dumbest reply in the history of this board.

[Drake]

Dumbest reply in the history of this board.Why?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I guess it would have been fun to see if Satchel Paige would have "owned" Babe Ruth. We can all speculate on that one.

It is hard to overlook the fact that Ruth hit more homers than some ENTIRE TEAMS, and that he often won the HR crown by a factor of 200% or more.

That is unheard of. Sure, he played in a segregated world, but do we argue that Ted Williams was not a great hitter because he didn't face the best African-American pitchers?

It's not just about "African American".. it's about having the best baseball players in the world, on the same field, going at it. Don't segregate the playing field (level), in one era, then integrate the playing field (level), in another era, and..... tell me that's the same thing. It's not! (Ever heard the saying, "Don't piss down my back, then tell me it's raining?";) )

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Why?

Because you don't even know if the Babe was the best baseball player in the world, in his own era.

[Drake]

Because you don't even know if the Babe was the best baseball player in the world, in his own era. How can we ever tell who is? The Cubans have had some great teams and players that haven't gotten to play here, the Japanese play well enough that their players compete quite well in the MLB. Your contention is so arbitrary that it's better left out of this discussion.

Even so, I'll rephrase my opinion: Babe Ruth is the greatest homerun hitter that's ever played in the MLB's American or National Leagues...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

How can we ever tell who is? The Cubans have had some great teams and players that haven't gotten to play here, the Japanese play well enough that their players compete quite well in the MLB. Your contention is so arbitrary that it's better left out of this discussion.

Even so, I'll rephrase my opinion: Babe Ruth is the greatest homerun hitter that's ever played in the MLB's American or National Leagues...

Arbitrary?!! It's black and white.. literally. How do you form a league, rejecting players based on their skin color, in one era.... then have an wide-based player-selection league, in another era? How do you do that, then try and compare era's?

Example:
We'll never know if Auburn could've beaten USC, in 2004... so how can anyone say the 2004 USC team is the best team of all-time?

This whole debate is insane. How in the world can anyone defend that era? And if they do, why can't they defend the so-called steroid era? At least this era is somewhat blurry!

[Drake]

This whole debate is insane. How in the world can anyone defend that era? And if they do, why can't they defend the so-called steroid era? At least this era is somewhat blurry! No one is DEFENDING the segregation of that ERA. But it's just as insane to question the accomplishments of the players in that era BECAUSE of the segregation. Are you going to reason that Abe Lincoln wasn't one of the greatest presidents because blacks couldn't vote or be president in that era? How about saying we don't really know how great Michael Jordan was because the Chinese weren't coming over to play when he played?

You should possibly open your mind on this a bit. Satchell Paige is one of the greatest baseball players in the history of the game. He played so well, and accomplished so much, that he was elected to the baseball Hall of Fame in 1971. However, almost his entire resume of on-field accomplishments occurred playing in the all black Negro Leagues. Should his accomplishments be tainted because much of society was segregated at the time? They aren't to me.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

No one is DEFENDING the segregation of that ERA. But it's just as insane to question the accomplishments of the players in that era BECAUSE of the segregation. Are you going to reason that Abe Lincoln wasn't one of the greatest presidents because blacks couldn't vote or be president in that era? How about saying we don't really know how great Michael Jordan was because the Chinese weren't coming over to play when he played?

You should possibly open your mind on this a bit. Satchell Paige is one of the greatest baseball players in the history of the game. He played so well, and accomplished so much, that he was elected to the baseball Hall of Fame in 1971. However, almost his entire resume of on-field accomplishments occurred playing in the all black Negro Leagues. Should his accomplishments be tainted because much of society was segregated at the time? They aren't to me.

His accomplishments are tainted (According to the MLB and most casual fans), due to being denied a right to play by THAT same MLB organization.

Same thing for Josh Gibson...

His Baseball Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career, although the home runs are not recognized as Major League achievement, Gibson is still considered one of the best home run hitters of all time. MLB only recognizes 146 Home Runs. (Pretty convenient!)

I will NEVER... EVER... ACKNOWLEDGE... the MLB of the Black & White Era! (Pre-1945)

One other thing, how can you say no one is defending the segregation of that era, when people have already posted that they feel Babe Ruth is the greatest of All-Time? In this case, when you defend the accomplishments of the MLB organization (in that era) you also defend their policy, too.

[dragonsdaddy]

His accomplishments are tainted (According to the MLB and most casual fans), due to being denied a right to play by THAT same MLB organization.

Same thing for Josh Gibson...

His Baseball Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career, although the home runs are not recognized as Major League achievement, Gibson is still considered one of the best home run hitters of all time. MLB only recognizes 146 Home Runs. (Pretty convenient!)

I will NEVER... EVER... ACKNOWLEDGE... the MLB of the Black & White Era! (Pre-1945)

One other thing, how can you say no one is defending the segregation of that era, when people have already posted that they feel Babe Ruth is the greatest of All-Time? In this case, when you defend the accomplishments of the MLB organization (in that era) you also defend their policy, too.
stats don't always tell all the story. there may have been some extinuating circumstances that caused one player to have lesser stats(or none at all) and still rate the opinion of boat. some might believe that the babe might have missed out on one or more hrs with his several years stint as a danged fine pitcher. it is certainly arguable that josh gibson could be your top pick as boat. i really don't think there is a right answer, but the wrong one would be bb, imo. he is simply the homerun leader until ttb catches up.

[Dawg Fan]

His accomplishments are tainted (According to the MLB and most casual fans), due to being denied a right to play by THAT same MLB organization.

Same thing for Josh Gibson...

His Baseball Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career, although the home runs are not recognized as Major League achievement, Gibson is still considered one of the best home run hitters of all time. MLB only recognizes 146 Home Runs. (Pretty convenient!)

I will NEVER... EVER... ACKNOWLEDGE... the MLB of the Black & White Era! (Pre-1945)

One other thing, how can you say no one is defending the segregation of that era, when people have already posted that they feel Babe Ruth is the greatest of All-Time? In this case, when you defend the accomplishments of the MLB organization (in that era) you also defend their policy, too.

Dude, get the chip off your shoulder. When was Babe's last year to play baseball? He not only was a great hitter but he was also a great pitcher. You can't prove that he wouldn't have made those accomplishments if there were black players in his league. Its just speculation at best and your opinion which you are entitled to but by no means a fact. Saying Babe Ruth was the greatest is an opinion just like yours and it is not defending segregation at all. Segregation is one of the worst parts of our American history and we can't change history.

[Drake]

One other thing, how can you say no one is defending the segregation of that era, when people have already posted that they feel Babe Ruth is the greatest of All-Time? In this case, when you defend the accomplishments of the MLB organization (in that era) you also defend their policy, too. What?? So you are saying that anyone that thinks Babe Ruth is the greatest home run hitter, or Cy Young the greatest pitcher, must support segregation because those guys played in a segregated league? Quite a stretch, even for you, TGO...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Dude, get the chip off your shoulder. When was Babe's last year to play baseball? He not only was a great hitter but he was also a great pitcher. You can't prove that he wouldn't have made those accomplishments if there were black players in his league. Its just speculation at best and your opinion which you are entitled to but by no means a fact. Saying Babe Ruth was the greatest is an opinion just like yours and it is not defending segregation at all. Segregation is one of the worst parts of our American history and we can't change history.

I don't respect a league that spits in my face, due to my skin color. Why would I respect the accomplishments of that same league?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

What?? So you are saying that anyone that thinks Babe Ruth is the greatest home run hitter, or Cy Young the greatest pitcher, must support segregation because those guys played in a segregated league? Quite a stretch, even for you, TGO...

Oh, so you think the players couldn't have changed policy? That's odd, considering the MLB has had several different unions (PPA, PBPA and ABG).... and they couldn't find it in their hearts to go on strike, in order to take the League to its' toughest plato? Rightt!

Think about what you people are saying...
My great-grandfather wouldn't have been given the opportunity to be a great MLB player (like Ruth and Young), just because he was African American. Why the hell would he, 80 years later, agree that any of the players (White Americans) of that era, are the best of All-Time, let alone that era? It would be an insult to even ask him.

[dragonsdaddy]

Oh, so you think the players couldn't have changed policy? That's odd, considering the MLB has had several different unions (PPA, PBPA and ABG).... and they couldn't find it in their hearts to go on strike, in order to take the League to its' toughest plato? Rightt!

Think about what you people are saying...
My great-grandfather wouldn't have been given the opportunity to be a great MLB player (like Ruth and Young), just because he was African American. Why the hell would he, 80 years later, agree that any of the players (White Americans) of that era, are the best of All-Time, let alone that era? It would be an insult to even ask him.

i am very doubtful that unions existed in the years you bemoan.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

i am very doubtful that unions existed in the years you bemoan.

Brotherhood of Professional Base Ball Players - 1885 (founded by John Montgomery Ward)
Players' Protective Association - 1900
Fraternity of Professional Baseball Players of America - 1912
American Baseball Guild - 1946

[whs08]

i am very doubtful that unions existed in the years you bemoan.

um ,wow dude your quit wrong on that.

[dragonsdaddy]

Brotherhood of Professional Base Ball Players - 1885 (founded by John Montgomery Ward)
Players' Protective Association - 1900
Fraternity of Professional Baseball Players of America - 1912
American Baseball Guild - 1946

did these unions have any mass? the players didn't seem to have much sayso in their world before curt flood, it seems. a union with no power is a union in name only. maybe the owners let them have a union so they could get them together to tell them how things would be run.

[ktCarl]

I don't recognize Barry Bonds record because there aren't any Eskimos in the league and unless they go to Brazil and recruit some Amazonian warriors no record in baseball is worth a d*a*m*n.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

did these unions have any mass? the players didn't seem to have much sayso in their world before curt flood, it seems. a union with no power is a union in name only. maybe the owners let them have a union so they could get them together to tell them how things would be run.

Back in the 1880s, when the term "organized baseball'' reflected ambition more than reality, the general anarchy let a few dozen blacks play in integrated leagues. By the turn of the century, however, blacks had been utterly banished. Although liberal demonology would assume that the owners were the villains, the prime agitators for segregation were, as economic theory would predict, the white ballplayers. Cap Anson was the best known of the many white athletes who threatened strikes or violence against black rivals. The banning of blacks came up for a vote only once, in 1887 in the International League. Following many nasty anti-black demonstrations by white players, the owners of the six all-white teams outvoted the owners of the four mixed teams. Elsewhere, blacks were driven out by ``gentlemen's agreements.''

When all teams colluded against blacks, each team could assure itself that it was no worse off competitively than if all hired blacks. Cartels often collapse quickly because of cheating, but it was easier to enforce a national ban on black ballplayers than on, say, black factory workers. A ballclub couldn't hide its black workers away inside the mill, but would have had to flaunt them on the road before hostile, even murderous crowds. JACKIE ROBINSON'S vast (and deserved) fame tends to make us assume that blacks and whites never played together before April 1946. In truth, as the supply of black baseball talent exploded after World War I, the demand for it could not be contained either. There were of course the Negro Leagues. By the 1940s they were booming, and their All Star game frequently outdrew the white version. More forgotten are the many venues outside the South where blacks and whites increasingly played together. 1) Collegiate athletics had been haphazardly integrated for decades. At UCLA, for example, Robinson starred in baseball, football, basketball, track, tennis, golf, and swimming. 2) The California winter baseball league was integrated, though not its individual teams. 3) In the Caribbean winter leagues, race meant even less. Many teams had black and white American stars playing in the same lineups, with few problems. 4) In the mid Forties, a Mexican mogul raided both the Negro and the Major Leagues to stock his summer Mexican League's integrated teams. (Among 18 big-leaguers heading south after the 1945 season was Dodger catcher Mickey Owen. Whether this increased competition for whites encouraged the Dodgers' owner, Branch Rickey, to plunder the Negro Leagues is unknown, but it certainly didn't hurt.) 5) Semipro ball, which was hugely popular before TV, was surprisingly integrated. For instance, in 1935, Bismarck, North Dakota, fielded an awesome team, half white, half black, lead by the fabled pitcher Satchel Paige. Soon, practically every town in the Dakotas boasted "semipros'' lured from the Negro Leagues. 6) Barnstorming was the chaotic epitome of Disorganized Baseball, requiring only two teams willing to play and a crowd willing to pay. In many Midwestern villages, the annual athletic highlight was the arrival of a Negro Leagues squad to play the local semipros. 7) Each October the black Satchel Paige All Stars and the white Dizzy Dean All Stars barnstormed the nation together. (Predictably, the blacks won a sizable majority of these games.) During World War II, Paige could claim to be the highest-paid player in all of baseball.

Why did all the owners, although often after some resistance, ultimately give in to rabble-rousing white players? Easing the slide into segregation was organized baseball's curious status as a sort of Portuguese man-of-war of economic entities -- in some ways an industry of independent competitors, in others a single enterprise. Baseball teams must agree upon how they will compete, and, while they're at it, it's always tempting to agree upon how they won't compete. Congress ratified organized baseball's collusive tendency in 1920 by exempting it from the Sherman Antitrust Act.

The team owners' ill-named "gentlemen's agreement'' to discriminate against blacks closely resembles today's unspoken understanding among the presidents of another government-sanctioned cartel, our elite colleges, that they will all discriminate against whites and Asians. Both clubowners and college presidents chose to head off ugly incidents by pre-emptively caving in to racial activists. They then browbeat all their peers into closing ranks, lest a lone dissident spotlight their spinelessness.

In the liberal world-view, discrimination stems from prejudice, from ignorance of the actual talents of blacks. In organized baseball, the opposite was true. White Major Leaguers freely admitted that many blacks could have taken white players' jobs. Yet, somehow, this enlightened perception failed to make the white pros into ardent integrationists. Meanwhile, a number of owners and managers tried to cheat on their gentlemen's agreement. For example, many historians claim that the Washington Senators quietly broke the color barrier in the late 1930s by playing Cubans dark enough to have been banned as Negroes if they had spoken English.

There was strikingly little correlation between the rectitude of the man and his urge to integrate baseball. For example, among managers the most creative was the choleric John J. McGraw, a ferocious scrapper who won ten pennants. In 1901 he almost succeeded in smuggling a light-skinned black second baseman onto his team as a full-blooded Cherokee named ``Chief Tokohama.'' During World War II huckster Bill Veeck tried to buy the dreadful Philadelphia Phillies and stock them with Negro Leagues stars. Like all direct challenges, though, this was rebuffed by the autocratic Commissioner of Baseball, Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis. After the Chicago Black Sox threw the 1919 World Series, the owners had restored faith in the game by appointing Landis, who was famed for his strict moral standards -- one of which was Segregation Forever. After the good Judge went to his reward in late 1944, the owners, hoping to lighten up, picked as Commissioner the Southern politician A. B. "Happy'' Chandler. When Happy surprisingly indicated that he wouldn't veto black players, Branch Rickey set his plans in motion.

Further undermining the naive presumption that breaking the color line was an act of progressive piety was the key role played by Rickey's favorite field manager, the little ferret Leo Durocher. Bonding the Mahatma and Leo the Lip was a shared passion for victory and money. During spring training in 1947, Rickey scheduled a series between the Dodgers and Robinson's minor-league team. He hoped that when the Dodger players saw Robinson's talents, they would demand his promotion. Instead, fearing for their jobs or those of their friends, they said nothing. But when some Dodgers from Dixie actively protested against Robinson, Durocher deflated their mutiny: ``I don't care if the guy is yellow or black, or if he has stripes like a f -- -- -- zebra. I'm the manager of this team, and I say he plays. What's more, I say he can make us all rich. And if any of you can't use the money, I'll see that you are all traded.''


The players had just as much to do with the segregation of that era, as the owners.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I don't recognize Barry Bonds record because there aren't any Eskimos in the league and unless they go to Brazil and recruit some Amazonian warriors no record in baseball is worth a d*a*m*n.

Awesome.

[LoneRocket]

Oh, so you think the players couldn't have changed policy? That's odd, considering the MLB has had several different unions (PPA, PBPA and ABG).... and they couldn't find it in their hearts to go on strike, in order to take the League to its' toughest plato? Rightt!

Think about what you people are saying...
My great-grandfather wouldn't have been given the opportunity to be a great MLB player (like Ruth and Young), just because he was African American. Why the hell would he, 80 years later, agree that any of the players (White Americans) of that era, are the best of All-Time, let alone that era? It would be an insult to even ask him.

I guess the same could be said about the Texas UIL because PVIL students and schools were not allowed to fully integrate into the UIL until 1973. Another poster mention a while back that former PVIL coaches who were coaching in the UIL did not have full voting rights in the Texas High School coaches Association until the 1980's. Even in officiating when PVIL refs went over to the UIL they made them start over in years of service thus killing their senority. You had 30 years of officiating service and now you have 0 years of service.

[ktCarl]

Awesome.

My comment was in jest. You have a serious problem.

[dragonsdaddy]

The players had just as much to do with the segregation of that era, as the owners.

i don't doubt that in the least. they were trying to protect their paycheck, among other things. my question concerned the unions and their impotence.

[LoneRocket]

It's not just about "African American".. it's about having the best baseball players in the world, on the same field, going at it. Don't segregate the playing field (level), in one era, then integrate the playing field (level), in another era, and..... tell me that's the same thing. It's not! (Ever heard the saying, "Don't piss down my back, then tell me it's raining?";) )

They said that Ty Cobb was so racist that he would not play if baseball integrated. I saw a story about when the YMCA forced the South Carolina YMCA youth league to allow Blacks play in its league I think it was back in the 1950’s. The heads of the South Carolina YMCA responded by forming the Dixie youth baseball league and membership spread across the south at that time because they would not allow Black youths to play.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

My comment was in jest. You have a serious problem.

I know carl... I knew exactly what you were doing. (My comment was also in jest.)

[rantanamo]

Baker's dozen best power hitters of all time:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Willie Mays
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Lou Gehrig
6. Henry Aaron
7. Joe DiMaggio
8. Jimmy Foxx
9. Barry Bonds
10. Hank Greenberg
11. Stan Musial
12. Frank Robinson
13. Rogers Hornsby

1.) Alex Rodriguez

[ThEgReAtOnE]

They said that Ty Cobb was so racist that he would not play if baseball integrated. I saw a story about when the YMCA forced the South Carolina YMCA youth league to allow Blacks play in its league I think it was back in the 1950’s. The heads of the South Carolina YMCA responded by forming the Dixie youth baseball league and membership spread across the south at that time because they would not allow Black youths to play.

To some on this board, the records of that era should be cherished. Why? Because the players were stand-up good ole' boys! How stand-up? I remember the time they stood up to the world and the MLB (owners) and said, "We're not playing unless the rules change! Unless we scout the best players, in the world, and put them on the field!"

I can't remember what year that was... um, um.. oh yeah... that never happened!;)

A racist, Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him. (The matter was later settled out of court.)

Cobb was a racist piece of crap! But whatever anyone does... lets call Barry Bonds a scumbag!:rolleyes:

[ktCarl]

I know carl... I knew exactly what you were doing. (My comment was also in jest.)

Sorry.

[Drake]

Think about what you people are saying...
My great-grandfather wouldn't have been given the opportunity to be a great MLB player (like Ruth and Young), just because he was African American. Why the hell would he, 80 years later, agree that any of the players (White Americans) of that era, are the best of All-Time, let alone that era? It would be an insult to even ask him.It just makes it very difficult if we're going to have to consider the racial circumstances in society and other institutions at the time when we measure ability, recognize records, etc., etc.

Even you would be subject to such difficult considerations. This is attached to every one of your posts:

"Hail to the gReAtEsT!"
Overall: 524-160-13 (Since 1945) (.761)
Bowl Games: 22-14-1 (Since 1950)
10-5-1 vs the SEC (Since 1950)
26-28-2 vs Texas (Since 1950)
33-21 vs Nebraska (Since 1950)
37-9-1 vs Oklahoma State (Since 1950)
7 National Titles (Since 1950)
29 Conference Titles (Since 1950)
4 Heisman Winners (Since 1950)
5 Heisman Runner-Ups (Since 1950)
120 All-Americans (Since 1950)
The Mental-Pwnage continues...

I assume you are talking about the University of Oklahoma football program? You have all these great OU football accomplishments going back to 1950. Well, you probably know OU didn't allow a ANY black players on their team until 1956 and scheduled several teams that didn't allow black players for many years after that.

Using your same Major League Baseball logic, aren't some of their accomplishments meaningless and shouldn't they be left OUT of your OU boasts?

[whs08]

It just makes it very difficult if we're going to have to consider the racial circumstances in society and other institutions at the time when we measure ability, recognize records, etc., etc.

Even you would be subject to such difficult considerations. This is attached to every one of your posts:

"Hail to the gReAtEsT!"
Overall: 524-160-13 (Since 1945) (.761)
Bowl Games: 22-14-1 (Since 1950)
10-5-1 vs the SEC (Since 1950)
26-28-2 vs Texas (Since 1950)
33-21 vs Nebraska (Since 1950)
37-9-1 vs Oklahoma State (Since 1950)
7 National Titles (Since 1950)
29 Conference Titles (Since 1950)
4 Heisman Winners (Since 1950)
5 Heisman Runner-Ups (Since 1950)
120 All-Americans (Since 1950)
The Mental-Pwnage continues...

I assume you are talking about the University of Oklahoma football program? You have all these great OU football accomplishments going back to 1950. Well, you probably know OU didn't allow a ANY black on their team until 1956 and scheduled several teams that didn't allow blacks for many years after that.

Using your same Major League Baseball logic, aren't some of their accomplishments meaningless and shouldn't they be left OUT of your OU boasts?


Wow that was unexpected, way to get off subject if I might say. Thats is his sig, not barry bonds.;)

[tyler rose]

i'm happy for barry bonds. many arn't happy about his record because of the steroid scandal. i say innocent until proven guilty:) its AMERICA RIGHT

[Drake]

Wow that was unexpected, way to get off subject if I might say. Thats is his sig, not barry bonds.;)Look you little gnat... Oh, nevermind! :D

[whs08]

i'm happy for barry bonds. many arn't happy about his record because of the steroid scandal. i say innocent until proven guilty:) its AMERICA RIGHT

I like they way you think, but he did take a performance enhancer. Check his pics from his pirate days and compare them to now. You'll see a difference.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

It just makes it very difficult if we're going to have to consider the racial circumstances in society and other institutions at the time when we measure ability, recognize records, etc., etc.

Even you would be subject to such difficult considerations. This is attached to every one of your posts:

"Hail to the gReAtEsT!"
Overall: 524-160-13 (Since 1945) (.761)
Bowl Games: 22-14-1 (Since 1950)
10-5-1 vs the SEC (Since 1950)
26-28-2 vs Texas (Since 1950)
33-21 vs Nebraska (Since 1950)
37-9-1 vs Oklahoma State (Since 1950)
7 National Titles (Since 1950)
29 Conference Titles (Since 1950)
4 Heisman Winners (Since 1950)
5 Heisman Runner-Ups (Since 1950)
120 All-Americans (Since 1950)
The Mental-Pwnage continues...

I assume you are talking about the University of Oklahoma football program? You have all these great OU football accomplishments going back to 1950. Well, you probably know OU didn't allow a ANY black players on their team until 1956 and scheduled several teams that didn't allow black players for many years after that.

Using your same Major League Baseball logic, aren't some of their accomplishments meaningless and shouldn't they be left OUT of your OU boasts?

Yup! I have an agenda. (Trust me.. you're too late to understand!)

[whs08]

Look you little gnat... Oh, nevermind! :D

ok?

[TheBigPeach]

He isnt going to have it that long, so I really dont care:D

[STJL41]

I really expected the users on this board to have more sense than to turn this into a race issue, but I guess I was wrong. This shouldn't be about whether Bonds is better than Ruth or Aaron or anyone for that matter, its about him cheating.

In Barry Bonds we have a man who already had the skills to be one of the greatest baseball players of all time, but yet he chose to start cheating later in his career to change his game. Sports Illustrated published various quotes by Bonds in their most recent issue, one of which stated "Baseball games are not won with the long ball. I'm just trying to get base hits." Not suprisingly, this quote comes from 1988 (or '89, I think). The point is he started cheating to get himself the fame that home run kings get, and it got him exactly what he wanted: the #1 spot. What he probably didn't see coming was the vast majority of the baseball watching community despising him for his actions, but given the way I have seen him act in interviews and after games, I doubt he really cares what we think. He's laughing all the way to the bank (and into the History Books*).

All I can hope now is that he will retire soon so I don't have to bother with looking at him while he ruins the game I love even further.

[whs08]

^ He still broke the record, though.

[rwilleby]

The Bonds thing is a little strange... I'm not really sure how I feel about it...

On the one hand, it does appear that he has used performance enhancing drugs... But he's not the only one... Which does not make it right, just a point of fact... So, if Pro Baseball lets players use enhancements does that become part of the game? They can expel players for gambling or using corked bats, why not for these types of drugs? I think if the front office wanted to, they could... I'm not sure they want to... Bonds brings in the fans and the fans spend the money... So the question is - Is it cheating if there's nothing that stops them from doing it?

On the other hand, he did hit the balls out of the park... From a pro pitcher, on a pro field... More than anyone else... That is a fact, no matter how he did it...

Am I missing something here?

[Drake]

The Bonds thing is a little strange... I'm not really sure how I feel about it...

On the one hand, it does appear that he has used performance enhancing drugs... But he's not the only one... Which does not make it right, just a point of fact... So, if Pro Baseball lets players use enhancements does that become part of the game? They can expel players for gambling or using corked bats, why not for these types of drugs? I think if the front office wanted to, they could... I'm not sure they want to... Bonds brings in the fans and the fans spend the money... So the question is - Is it cheating if there's nothing that stops them from doing it?

On the other hand, he did hit the balls out of the park... From a pro pitcher, on a pro field... More than anyone else... That is a fact, no matter how he did it...

Am I missing something here?What's missed by many fans is the realization MOST pro athletes will do whatever they think they can get away with to gain an advantage and/or prolong their careers. Whether it's corked bats, spit balls, nail files, stealing signs, or drugs, it's all designed to gain an advantage and the pros see in it little to be remorseful about unless they're caught. Again, MOST!

I doubt many in baseball do steroids now, but only because the chances of being caught and the negative consequences have greatly increased. You’d have a hard time convincing me that the majority of regular players weren’t using at least andro and probably more during the McGwire/Sosa era. Luis Gonzales is a good example of someone whose power increased tremendously during that era. I'm sure it's still a big part of the NFL because you get so many chances if you are caught.

In some ways I can't even blame them. Given the choice between using steroids and losing my competitive advantage and consequently my livelihood, and that IS the choice for some, I'd strongly consider taking the steroids. What do I really have to lose?

Bonds is treated as a pariah because the steroids accentuated his talent more than it did for most only because HE HAD MORE TALENT to enhance. Just because he got the most out of it doesn’t mean he’s any more guilty than hundreds of others that did the same thing but didn't have the spotlight on them this home run chase created.

The thing to notice is just how many other PLAYERS are criticizing Barry Bonds. Very few. I was never for Barry Bonds surpassing Hank Aaron. It’s not just the steroid issue, but Barry Bonds is in general a racist creep. But to single him out for steroids is unfair, especially considering Major League Baseball turned a blind eye to the problem for so long.

That's just one guy's opinion. :)

[rwilleby]

Drake, I agree... So, besides making you look like the Hulk and driving you crazy, Steroids are no different than the intense weight lifting programs teams have today over what they had, say in the 50's...

The Gatoraide commercial, hydration makes us go longer, is an example of an advantage over the other team by way of an enhanced sports drink... I know it's a stretch, but the result is similar...

Maybe it's Bonds attitude that people don't like and when you couple that with the stretching the boundries via performance enhancing drugs you get a ***** who cheats...

MBL has created a monster with all of this... Bonds hit the runs and gets he record... Baseball loses out because you can't go back...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

What's missed by many fans is the realization MOST pro athletes will do whatever they think they can get away with to gain an advantage and/or prolong their careers. Whether it's corked bats, spit balls, nail files, stealing signs, or drugs, it's all designed to gain an advantage and the pros see in it little to be remorseful about unless they're caught. Again, MOST!

I doubt many in baseball do steroids now, but only because the chances of being caught and the negative consequences have greatly increased. You’d have a hard time convincing me that the majority of regular players weren’t using at least andro and probably more during the McGwire/Sosa era. Luis Gonzales is a good example of someone whose power increased tremendously during that era. I'm sure it's still a big part of the NFL because you get so many chances if you are caught.

In some ways I can't even blame them. Given the choice between using steroids and losing my competitive advantage and consequently my livelihood, and that IS the choice for some, I'd strongly consider taking the steroids. What do I really have to lose?

Bonds is treated as a pariah because the steroids accentuated his talent more than it did for most only because HE HAD MORE TALENT to enhance. Just because he got the most out of it doesn’t mean he’s any more guilty than hundreds of others that did the same thing but didn't have the spotlight on them this home run chase created.

The thing to notice is just how many other PLAYERS are criticizing Barry Bonds. Very few. I was never for Barry Bonds surpassing Hank Aaron. It’s not just the steroid issue, but Barry Bonds is in general a racist creep. But to single him out for steroids is unfair, especially considering Major League Baseball turned a blind eye to the problem for so long.

That's just one guy's opinion. :)

No.. it's not lost. Back when the Babe played, "Colored-People" weren't allowed to play the game. Many players felt there were several minorities that could take their position. (They were also racist, bigoted pieces of crap.) Of course they didn't want to integrate. Why? There's no way in hell they would sit 2nd place to a black or cuban player!

Today (and since the early 70's), baseball players (and many other athletes) have resorted to using supplements, prescription and illegal drugs in order to save or prolong their career. It's been the same way since the early 20th Century. Some people just purposely have their blinders on.

If steroids could truly make an Pro-athlete a "Superman", nothing or no one would ever get in the way of athletes using it. All athletes, for that matter. Truth is (and I and Hank Aaron have said it before)... you still gotta hit the damn ball. If it were just about taking steroids, the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL and, hell, maybe even the PGA, would send scouts to every Gold's Gym, 24-Hour Fitness or Bailey's across America... and sign the sissies with the pink leotards, posing in the mirror.

Trust me guys.. many people truly have no idea of the limitations of steroid-use. Simply put.. 'roid-usage can be quite overrated.

[Drake]

Simply put.. 'roid-usage can be quite overrated.Yes, except for making you BIGGER, STRONGER, and FASTER, steroids are really no advantage to athletes. ;)

[DragonFan0316]

Bonds is a poor example. When he got to home plate after 756 he had to selfingrandize before he could hug his son. He used steroids. I don't need a grand jury on that one. He did however manage to put a round bat on a round ball in such a way that it cleared fences at least 757 times now. That takes talent no matter what you are taking.

[rwilleby]

Yes, except for making you BIGGER, STRONGER, and FASTER, steroids are really no advantage to athletes. ;)

Ha!

[t-long20]

Yes, except for making you BIGGER, STRONGER, and FASTER, steroids are really no advantage to athletes. ;)

hitting a home run takes alot more than being bigger and faster.you need hand-eye cordination,concentration,etc. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest hitters of all time period. But arguably he did take some form of steroids which helped him become superhuman to his already supreme natural gifts.But if you want to blame someone blame baseball as a whole for being tainted because you and everyone else is fooling themselves if they think Barry Bonds is the only player in the MLB who might've taken sterioids at one time or another bonds just stands out because obviously now he has the record

[rwilleby]

hitting a home run takes alot more than being bigger and faster.you need hand-eye cordination,concentration,etc. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest hitters of all time period. But arguably he did take some form of steroids which helped him become superhuman to his already supreme natural gifts.But if you want to blame someone blame baseball as a whole for being tainted because you and everyone else is fooling themselves if they think Barry Bonds is the only player in the MLB who might've taken sterioids at one time or another bonds just stands out because obviously now he has the record

Yep, he hit 'em and should get the credit... 'roids or not, that's a lot of HR balls...

[ktCarl]

hitting a home run takes alot more than being bigger and faster.you need hand-eye cordination,concentration,etc. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest hitters of all time period. But arguably he did take some form of steroids which helped him become superhuman to his already supreme natural gifts.But if you want to blame someone blame baseball as a whole for being tainted because you and everyone else is fooling themselves if they think Barry Bonds is the only player in the MLB who might've taken sterioids at one time or another bonds just stands out because obviously now he has the record

No one is going to say anything about a guy that took steroids and only hit 10 HR's for the season.

I don't think anyone is saying that Bonds is the only one 'juicing' up. Heck, it's prevalent at the High School level. Bonds hit all those HR's and he'll get credit no matter what. I wonder how many he would have if the MLB were using those composite bats that high schoolers use? 1055

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Yes, except for making you BIGGER, STRONGER, and FASTER, steroids are really no advantage to athletes. ;)

An ATHLETE makes himself/herself BIGGER, FASTER and STRONGER. Steroids can be helpful, only depending on how hard you train and what type you're taking.

Stop putting so much emphasis on what steroids do.... they wouldn't do a damn thing if you sat on your :Censor: !!

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Bonds is a poor example. When he got to home plate after 756 he had to selfingrandize before he could hug his son. He used steroids. I don't need a grand jury on that one. He did however manage to put a round bat on a round ball in such a way that it cleared fences at least 757 times now. That takes talent no matter what you are taking.

Bingo!!;)

[rwilleby]

An ATHLETE makes himself/herself BIGGER, FASTER and STRONGER. Steroids can be helpful, only depending on how hard you train and what type you're taking.

Stop putting so much emphasis on what steroids do.... they wouldn't do a damn thing if you sat on your :Censor: !!

Come on, be honest... They must DO SOMETHING or they wouldn't be taking them... Right?

[STJL41]

I don't understand you guys. He cheated, plain and simple. So did a lot of other people...The difference is that Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and Jose Conseco and Ken Camminiti (RIP) and all those other players who used them didn't break the most hallowed (now hollow) record in sports. He gets what he deserves if most of the public hates him for breaking the record. I'm still of the opinion that he didn't earn it like Aaron did, so dont come at me with this "well, he still broke it didn't he?" BS. Thats just a cop out. Hitting a round ball with a round bad is still the hardest thing to do in sports (where else can you fail 70% of the time and still be considered really good?) but Bonds already had a sweet swing. When you add the power he was most assuredly given to him by using substances like HGH and other steroids, it was almost impossible to think he wouldn't break this record.

And to whoever said "if so many player are doing it and the league turns a blind eye, does that make it part of the game?" the answer is no. If that was the case, then you should go and tell your kids to smoke pot, since that is done habitually in America and really very little is done about it. I'm not saying that to bring up a new discussion, I'm just trying to make my point a bit more clear.

[rwilleby]

I don't understand you guys. He cheated, plain and simple. So did a lot of other people...The difference is that Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and Jose Conseco and Ken Camminiti (RIP) and all those other players who used them didn't break the most hallowed (now hollow) record in sports. He gets what he deserves if most of the public hates him for breaking the record. I'm still of the opinion that he didn't earn it like Aaron did, so dont come at me with this "well, he still broke it didn't he?" BS. Thats just a cop out. Hitting a round ball with a round bad is still the hardest thing to do in sports (where else can you fail 70% of the time and still be considered really good?) but Bonds already had a sweet swing. When you add the power he was most assuredly given to him by using substances like HGH and other steroids, it was almost impossible to think he wouldn't break this record.

And to whoever said "if so many player are doing it and the league turns a blind eye, does that make it part of the game?" the answer is no. If that was the case, then you should go and tell your kids to smoke pot, since that is done habitually in America and really very little is done about it. I'm not saying that to bring up a new discussion, I'm just trying to make my point a bit more clear.

Agree or not, he broke the record... I think he cheated too... But I also think Pete Rose was a pretty good ball player and should be in the HOF... Rose broke a rule that keeps him out... Bonds didn't... It's the rule makers fault for turning a blind eye and allowing this to be part of the game... And it's Bonds fault for taking advantage of a loop hole in the system...

Okay, If more than one player uses steroids as a performance enhancer AND everyone knows it in the front office of Baseball AND they choose to let it be part of the game... It has to be part of the game... The part of the game that gets a player ready to perform... Is it right? No... Are they stopping it? No... Do the fans care? Not enough to stop going to the games and supporting the cheating juicers...

The front office could have stopped steroid use at any time... One simple rule... You do it you're gone... Next player...

Would you tell kids NOT do it because it gives them an unfair advantage or is it because it's bad for them? I think it's the latter...

[STJL41]

I would tell kids not to do it (a) because it can be dangerous and (b) because they need to have integrity.

And will never buy the "so many people were doing it" angle. These are grown men who made their own decisions. They know its against the rules, so they make their choice to gain that advantage or not.

I have a tough time being as mad at Rose as I am at Bonds though, mainly because I was too young to realize what was going on at the time. Both players have committed acts which should keep them out of the HOF, but sadly Bonds may still get his shot.