The Top 10 Greatest Athletes of All-Time!

[ThEgReAtOnE]

The Top 10 Greatest Athletes of All-Time!

It's tough doing a list like this, because you're asking for the Top 10 Best athletes of any and all era's. There have been countless superb athletes, so trying to break the list down to 100 is tough enough. Breaking down a list to 10 is insane.

My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?

http://www.michael-jordan.ws/images/michael4.jpg
1) Michael Jordan
"His Airness" was drafted 3rd, overall, after Hakeem Olajuwon and....Sam Bowie! Righttt! Went on win 5 NBA MVP's,5 NBA Finals MVP's, 1 NBA Defensive MVP, 6 World Championships and 1 Olympic Gold Medal. He holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.1 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. He played against, and in, the toughest NBA era, that ever was - against the likes of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Irving, John Stockton and Karl Malone. He championed them all. Simply put, he's the greatest NBA player of All-Time....and the best competitor I've ever seen.

http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/Studentpages/alam/jr127.jpg
2) Jerry Rice
Yes, he had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him, so it was a tad bit simpler...but they absolutely needed his brilliance, just as much. It was mutual. 20 NFL Seasons, 13 Pro Bowls, 3 Super Bowl Rings and Numerous NFL Records are achievements listed under Rice's name. He is the All-Time leader in receptions, rec. yds, all-purpose yds, tds by a wr and td receptions... and no one is even close... yet. Can you believe he was drafted as the second WR, behind AL Toon...and ran a 4.71 in the 40 yds dash at the NFL Combine. His achievements, as a skinny'sh 6'2 185 lbs is phenomenal.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GB/FL0320~Muhammad-Ali-Posters.jpg
3) Muhammad Ali
Born Cassius Clay, in 1942. He fought in the best Heavyweight era, that ever was. (1960-1981) His opponents were some of the greatest boxers of all-time, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Joe Frazier, Buster Mathis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes. He was flamboyant and magical. He was a 3-Time World Champ and Gold Medalist. He championed his personal and economical causes with no fear and faced worldly criticism. There's no doubt he is a Top 5.

http://img.search.com/thumb/a/af/Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg/300px-Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg
4) Wayne Gretsky
Nicknamed "The Great One", Wayne is regarded by most Hockey enthusiasts as the Greatest Hockey player of All-Time. I concur. He set 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, 6 All-Star records, won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers, and won 9 MVP awards and 10 scoring titles. He is the only player ever to total over 200 points in a season (a feat that he accomplished four times in his career). In addition, he tallied over 100 points a season for 15 NHL seasons, 13 of them consecutively. He also was a 15 time NHL All-Star.

5) Tiger Woods
Woods has held the number one position in the world rankings for the most consecutive weeks and for the greatest total number of weeks. He has been awarded PGA Tour Player of the Year for a record eight times. He has been named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year four times. He has 79 Career Professional wins, including 12 Major Titles. All of this having been a professional for just 10 yrs. In the modern era, Woods is the only golfer to have won 10 majors before the age of 30. Due to the innovation of the sport and level of competition, many writers and golf enthusiasts see Woods as the greatest golfer of All-Time... and judging the norm, Woods has yet to hit his prime.

6) Barry Sanders
If he had the O-line that Emmitt Smith had, he'd have nearly 25,000 rushing yds. He achieved Pro Bowl status in all of his 10 seasons as a pro. Sanders was named All-Pro from 1989-1991 and 1993-1997 and was named All-Pro second team the '89, '92, '93, '96, and '98. Sanders was also named All-NFC from 1989-1992 to 1994-1997. Sanders was named NFL Rookie of the Year in '89, NFL MVP in '91, Offensive MVP in '94, MVP in '97, and was named to the 1990s NFL All-Decade team. He played in the best era of the sport (1989-1999) and was easily the best NFL athlete on the field. Though he doesn't hold the rushing record, he put up 15,269 yds in just 10 yrs...with a below average (horrible) offensive line and team.

7) Magic Johnson
3-time NBA MVP, 5-time NBA Champion, 3-time NBA Finals MVP, 12-time All-Star, 2-time All-Star MVP and a 1992 Olympic gold medalist. His career was cut short, or IMO, he and MJ would tie as the #1 NBA players of All-Time. The wars he had against Bird (Celtics) are remembered, by many, as the best rivalry on the NBA hardwood. In 905 NBA games, he scored 17,707 points, 6,559 rebounds and 10,141 assists, translating to career averages of 19.5 points, 7.2 rebounds and 11.2 assists per game. He (Lakers) won 5 NBA titles.

8) Mark Spitz
Between 1965 and 1972, Spitz won 9 Olympic gold medals, 1 silver, and 1 bronze; 5 Pan American golds; 31 National U.S. Amateur Athletic Union titles; and 8 U.S. National Collegiate Athletic Association Championships. During those years, he set 33 world records..simply put, he was the best athlete in the world, in those 6 yrs. IMO, that would be the equivalent of Tiger Woods
winning 20 of 24 Majors, over 6 yrs.

9) Jesse Owens
Owens was born in Oakville, Alabama in 1913. In HS, he tied the world record of 9.4 seconds in the 100-yard dash and long-jumped 24 feet 9 1/2 inches (7.56 m) at the 1933 National High School Championship in Chicago. He didn't receive a scholarschip. He won a record eight individual NCAA championships, four each in 1935 and 1936. (Only been matched - in 1 yr - in 2006, by Xavier Carter of LSU.) Amid Natzi vs the World Idealism, Owens traveled to the Berlin Olympic Games - where it was percieved that Blacks were inferior to Whites - and won an unprecedented 4 Gold Medals. (100 M, 200 M, 4 x 100 M and Long Jump) Hitler - who was in attendance - refused to acknowledge him, in disgrace. I rank Owens at #1, because he competed against the entire world, and at his time, was simply the best athlete in the world.

10) Pele
"The King Pele".... Pele scored 1281 pts in 1363 games. In league games, the number was 589 in 605 games. The Brazilian League System was the strongest system in Pele's era, of which he competed. He is the all-time top scorer in the history of the Brazil national team and is the only footballer to be a part of three World Cup-winning teams (it should be noted that though he was named part of the 1962 squad, he was injured and did not receive a winner's medal). In high-level tournaments, Pele (his team) won 32 Championships (the most), including 3 World Cups. Simply put, Pele was THE pioneer of the world soccer (football) game. He went from Shoe Shiner to Legend, in an amazing lifetime.


Source: Wikipedia

[twcpfan1]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

Ali would be close to the top of the list if not the top.

The athletes who played 2 or more major sports at the highest level must be considered:

Tom Glavine
Bo Jackson
Deion Sanders
Danny Ainge. (3)

Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz and Tiger Woods are good choices.

Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg also deserve some consideration.

[Favpack]

Great list and research. I realize Jim Thorpe does not meet you criteria in the competition category, but the man won the first decathlon he ever competed in and won the gold medal in Helsinki as an off-season hobby. He revolutionized the running back position in football and was the greatest kicker in the first several decades of pro football. I'd have Thorpe in my top 10.

I'd also give strong consideration for Jim Brown, again realizing he made his hay in the 60's. But, consider Brown was also a great Lacrosse player at Syracuse.

[t-long20]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.


kobe is better than jordan? c'mon man thats crazy and as far as the list goes imo yall need to have Michael Johnson on there i mean he only broke two world records in track that still stand today

[twcpfan1]

kobe is better than jordan? c'mon man thats crazy and as far as the list goes imo yall need to have Michael Johnson on there i mean he only broke two world records in track that still stand today

Makes no difference. Neither player makes the list IMO. Michael Johnson deserves consideration though.

[t-long20]

Makes no difference. Neither player makes the list IMO. Michael Johnson deserves consideration though.

what is your logic for michael jordan not making the list im just curious

[twcpfan1]

Great list and research. I realize Jim Thorpe does not meet you criteria in the competition category, but the man won the first decathlon he ever competed in and won the gold medal in Helsinki as an off-season hobby. He revolutionized the running back position in football and was the greatest kicker in the first several decades of pro football. I'd have Thorpe in my top 10.

I'd also give strong consideration for Jim Brown, again realizing he made his hay in the 60's. But, consider Brown was also a great Lacrosse player at Syracuse.

In keeping with the T&F discussion, Sir Roger Bannister, a doctor, (4 min mile) should be considered. And he had a legit rival at the time. Australia's John Landy.

[jrock210]

The Top 10 Greatest Athletes of All-Time!

It's tough doing a list like this, because you're asking for the Top 10 Best athletes of any and all era's. There have been countless superb athletes, so trying to break the list down to 100 is tough enough. Breaking down a list to 10 is insane.

My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?

http://www.michael-jordan.ws/images/michael4.jpg
1) Michael Jordan
"His Airness" was drafted 3rd, overall, after Hakeem Olajuwon and....Sam Bowie! Righttt! Went on win 5 NBA MVP's,5 NBA Finals MVP's, 1 NBA Defensive MVP, 6 World Championships and 1 Olympic Gold Medal. He holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.1 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. He played against, and in, the toughest NBA era, that ever was - against the likes of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Irving, John Stockton and Karl Malone. He championed them all. Simply put, he's the greatest NBA player of All-Time....and the best competitor I've ever seen.

http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/Studentpages/alam/jr127.jpg
2) Jerry Rice
Yes, he had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him, so it was a tad bit simpler...but they absolutely needed his brilliance, just as much. It was mutual. 20 NFL Seasons, 13 Pro Bowls, 3 Super Bowl Rings and Numerous NFL Records are achievements listed under Rice's name. He is the All-Time leader in receptions, rec. yds, all-purpose yds, tds by a wr and td receptions... and no one is even close... yet. Can you believe he was drafted as the second WR, behind AL Toon...and ran a 4.71 in the 40 yds dash at the NFL Combine. His achievements, as a skinny'sh 6'2 185 lbs is phenomenal.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GB/FL0320~Muhammad-Ali-Posters.jpg
3) Muhammad Ali
Born Cassius Clay, in 1942. He fought in the best Heavyweight era, that ever was. (1960-1981) His opponents were some of the greatest boxers of all-time, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Joe Frazier, Buster Mathis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes. He was flamboyant and magical. He was a 3-Time World Champ and Gold Medalist. He championed his personal and economical causes with no fear and faced worldly criticism. There's no doubt he is a Top 5.

http://img.search.com/thumb/a/af/Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg/300px-Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg
4) Wayne Gretsky
Nicknamed "The Great One", Wayne is regarded by most Hockey enthusiasts as the Greatest Hockey player of All-Time. I concur. He set 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, 6 All-Star records, won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers, and won 9 MVP awards and 10 scoring titles. He is the only player ever to total over 200 points in a season (a feat that he accomplished four times in his career). In addition, he tallied over 100 points a season for 15 NHL seasons, 13 of them consecutively. He also was a 15 time NHL All-Star.

5) Tiger Woods
Woods has held the number one position in the world rankings for the most consecutive weeks and for the greatest total number of weeks. He has been awarded PGA Tour Player of the Year for a record eight times. He has been named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year four times. He has 79 Career Professional wins, including 12 Major Titles. All of this having been a professional for just 10 yrs. In the modern era, Woods is the only golfer to have won 10 majors before the age of 30. Due to the innovation of the sport and level of competition, many writers and golf enthusiasts see Woods as the greatest golfer of All-Time... and judging the norm, Woods has yet to hit his prime.

6) Barry Sanders
If he had the O-line that Emmitt Smith had, he'd have nearly 25,000 rushing yds. He achieved Pro Bowl status in all of his 10 seasons as a pro. Sanders was named All-Pro from 1989-1991 and 1993-1997 and was named All-Pro second team the '89, '92, '93, '96, and '98. Sanders was also named All-NFC from 1989-1992 to 1994-1997. Sanders was named NFL Rookie of the Year in '89, NFL MVP in '91, Offensive MVP in '94, MVP in '97, and was named to the 1990s NFL All-Decade team. He played in the best era of the sport (1989-1999) and was easily the best NFL athlete on the field. Though he doesn't hold the rushing record, he put up 15,269 yds in just 10 yrs...with a below average (horrible) offensive line and team.

7) Magic Johnson
3-time NBA MVP, 5-time NBA Champion, 3-time NBA Finals MVP, 12-time All-Star, 2-time All-Star MVP and a 1992 Olympic gold medalist. His career was cut short, or IMO, he and MJ would tie as the #1 NBA players of All-Time. The wars he had against Bird (Celtics) are remembered, by many, as the best rivalry on the NBA hardwood. In 905 NBA games, he scored 17,707 points, 6,559 rebounds and 10,141 assists, translating to career averages of 19.5 points, 7.2 rebounds and 11.2 assists per game. He (Lakers) won 5 NBA titles.

8) Mark Spitz
Between 1965 and 1972, Spitz won 9 Olympic gold medals, 1 silver, and 1 bronze; 5 Pan American golds; 31 National U.S. Amateur Athletic Union titles; and 8 U.S. National Collegiate Athletic Association Championships. During those years, he set 33 world records..simply put, he was the best athlete in the world, in those 6 yrs. IMO, that would be the equivalent of Tiger Woods
winning 20 of 24 Majors, over 6 yrs.

9) Jesse Owens
Owens was born in Oakville, Alabama in 1913. In HS, he tied the world record of 9.4 seconds in the 100-yard dash and long-jumped 24 feet 9 1/2 inches (7.56 m) at the 1933 National High School Championship in Chicago. He didn't receive a scholarschip. He won a record eight individual NCAA championships, four each in 1935 and 1936. (Only been matched - in 1 yr - in 2006, by Xavier Carter of LSU.) Amid Natzi vs the World Idealism, Owens traveled to the Berlin Olympic Games - where it was percieved that Blacks were inferior to Whites - and won an unprecedented 4 Gold Medals. (100 M, 200 M, 4 x 100 M and Long Jump) Hitler - who was in attendance - refused to acknowledge him, in disgrace. I rank Owens at #1, because he competed against the entire world, and at his time, was simply the best athlete in the world.

10) Pele
"The King Pele".... Pele scored 1281 pts in 1363 games. In league games, the number was 589 in 605 games. The Brazilian League System was the strongest system in Pele's era, of which he competed. He is the all-time top scorer in the history of the Brazil national team and is the only footballer to be a part of three World Cup-winning teams (it should be noted that though he was named part of the 1962 squad, he was injured and did not receive a winner's medal). In high-level tournaments, Pele (his team) won 32 Championships (the most), including 3 World Cups. Simply put, Pele was THE pioneer of the world soccer (football) game. He went from Shoe Shiner to Legend, in an amazing lifetime.


Source: Wikipedia

IMO I like everyperson on the lsit except the fact that you have Pele as 10. He should be switched with Barry Sanders because Barry wasn't around that long. He may have hit his peak and was going down hill he should be 8 or 9 instead.

[slorch]

Wayne has a "Z" in his last name, not an "S."

Hard to believe Jackie Robinson and Jesse Owens are missing.

I would never doubt Rice's greatness, but being the guy from Mississippi Valley State was not any bigger of a feat than Walter Payton and Jackson State. other than that, Rice didn't do much to change the sports culture, especially when you consider he didn't even head up his organization with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana doing the face time.

I still disagree with the belief that Sanders would have been better than Smith. Emmitt was a warrior and carried his team repeatedly. Sanders was undependable, such as his playoff stats and the way he left his team. definately another thread for another day.

With your criteria, Mia Hamm and Sheryl Swoopes could easily be included on the list, as could Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt.( Just to expand the horizons alitlle bit)

[twcpfan1]

what is your logic for michael jordan not making the list im just curious


So many sports to consider. If he's not even the best at the only sport he can play, then it would be hard for him to make the list.

Magic and Bird played much tougher competition than he ever did.

It was when all these guys left the game or were at the back end of their careers is when Jordan excelled.

The Pistons owned him.

I'm not even going to mention guys like Elgin Baylor, Wilt, Jerry West, Oscar, Russell, Kareem and Larry Bird.



Do we need to talk about his baseball career? So I would not put him in front of the 2 sport athletes.

[jrock210]

I think if you did a sport by sport list it would be alot easier.

[slorch]

heck, he did football by position!:eek:

[jrock210]

heck, he did football by position!:eek:

Yep he even added futbol

[chpanther]

Wayne has a "Z" in his last name, not an "S."

Hard to believe Jackie Robinson and Jesse Owens are missing.

I would never doubt Rice's greatness, but being the guy from Mississippi Valley State was not any bigger of a feat than Walter Payton and Jackson State. other than that, Rice didn't do much to change the sports culture, especially when you consider he didn't even head up his organization with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana doing the face time.

I still disagree with the belief that Sanders would have been better than Smith. Emmitt was a warrior and carried his team repeatedly. Sanders was undependable, such as his playoff stats and the way he left his team. definately another thread for another day.

With your criteria, Mia Hamm and Sheryl Swoopes could easily be included on the list, as could Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt.( Just to expand the horizons alitlle bit)

i understand what you mean by stretch the horizons a little bit, but i dont think that those two should be on this list. Now before everyone gets up and starts yellin about nascar being a sport and what not or whether they are athletes im not degrading nascar in anyway. Now that thats out of the way i dont feel that a driver should be on the 10 ten greatest athletes of all time list, no doubt what they do is hard and takes physical and mental strength but imo i think that someone who has played in a much more physical sport and dominated like they have deserves the spot. Like Pele soccer is extremely physical you have to run some 7 or 8 miles a game. The criteria he set would suggest that they be on the list with the domination of the era, and toughness of the era they were racing in but to be a top 10 athlete of all time i dont think that they should be on the list.

[slorch]

I meant last football season when he did his top10 list of RB, QB, OL, ect...(caused all kinds of trouble too...:rolleyes: :D ;) )

[slorch]

i understand what you mean by stretch the horizons a little bit, but i dont think that those two should be on this list. Now before everyone gets up and starts yellin about nascar being a sport and what not or whether they are athletes im not degrading nascar in anyway. Now that thats out of the way i dont feel that a driver should be on the 10 ten greatest athletes of all time list, no doubt what they do is hard and takes physical and mental strength but imo i think that someone who has played in a much more physical sport and dominated like they have deserves the spot. Like Pele soccer is extremely physical you have to run some 7 or 8 miles a game. The criteria he set would suggest that they be on the list with the domination of the era, and toughness of the era they were racing in but to be a top 10 athlete of all time i dont think that they should be on the list.

Fair enough, but Petty's numbers have yet to be matched, even remotely, and he brought a ton of publicity to the sport. Earnhardt drug NASCAR kicking and screaming into the 90's and made it a national draw. his persona on the racetrack was one of a kind as well.

Could either of these guys run a 40 under 6 seconds or hit a 80MPH fastball? probably not, but they definately fit the criteria set forth.

[BlackandRed05]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

Ali would be close to the top of the list if not the top.

The athletes who played 2 or more major sports at the highest level must be considered:

Tom Glavine
Bo Jackson
Deion Sanders
Danny Ainge. (3)

Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz and Tiger Woods are good choices.

Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg also deserve some consideration.

Kobe is nowhere near Jordan. Hes not even in the top 30 of NBA players for the all time points scoring list. Kareem Abdul Jabbar would get my vote after Jordan.

[twcpfan1]

Kobe is nowhere near Jordan. Hes not even in the top 30 of NBA players for the all time points scoring list. Kareem Abdul Jabbar would get my vote after Jordan.

Total points scored is only one aspect to consider. But since you mentioned it, Kobe is not quite done with his career yet. Not sure what his average/season is.

[Favpack]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

Ali would be close to the top of the list if not the top.

The athletes who played 2 or more major sports at the highest level must be considered:

Tom Glavine
Bo Jackson
Deion Sanders
Danny Ainge. (3)

Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz and Tiger Woods are good choices.

Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg also deserve some consideration.

I believe Jordan was ESPN's athlete of the Century? He's definitely on the list. The greatest basketball player ever - no doubt. MJ could run a 5 minute mile, was, at one point, a scratch golfer, and decent baseball player. And, he's also the best clutch performer of all time.

[twcpfan1]

I believe Jordan was ESPN's athlete of the Century? He's definitely on the list. The greatest basketball player ever - no doubt. MJ could run a 5 minute mile, was, at one point, a scratch golfer, and decent baseball player. And, he's also the best clutch performer of all time.

He lost a ton of money betting on himself in golf. Bill Laimbeer and Al Del Greco were scratch golfers. Jordan. Nowhere near it. Besides if 2 sport athletes are to be considered, they would want to consider the ones who were actually good enough to play multiple sports at a major league level. Being a below average minor leaguer should not count.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

Ali would be close to the top of the list if not the top.

The athletes who played 2 or more major sports at the highest level must be considered:

Tom Glavine
Bo Jackson
Deion Sanders
Danny Ainge. (3)

Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz and Tiger Woods are good choices.

Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg also deserve some consideration.

Jordan had a career avg of 30.1 pts ppg....Kobe has a career avg of 24.6 pts ppg. Jordan has 5 NBA MVP's and 6 Rings....Kobe has 0 NBA MVP's and 3 Rings (w/ arguably the best Center of All-Time, in Shaquille O'Neal.) Jordan has 1 Defensive NBA MVP....Kobe has 0. Jordan has been NBA Finals MVP, 6 times....while Kobe has played in 3 NBA Finals and claimed 0 MVP Awards.

IYO....
What, exactly, is Kobe better at, than Jordan? I'm curious.

[BlackandRed05]

Total points scored is only one aspect to consider. But since you mentioned it, Kobe is not quite done with his career yet. Not sure what his average/season is.

Thats true, total points is only one thing to consider. The reason I said that about Kobe was that if you compare the first 10 years of each ones career, and the titles and awards , its not even close.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

He lost a ton of money betting on himself in golf. Bill Laimbeer and Al Del Greco were scratch golfers. Jordan. Nowhere near it. Besides if 2 sport athletes are to be considered, they would want to consider the ones who were actually good enough to play multiple sports at a major league level. Being a below average minor leaguer should not count.

My criteria isn't "2 Sport Athlete". Why have an athlete that really good in several types of sports, but never the best in either sport?

[twcpfan1]

Thats true, total points is only one thing to consider. The reason I said that about Kobe was that if you compare the first 10 years of each ones career, and the titles and awards , its not even close.

I believe both had 3 championships their first 10 years. The Bulls got another 3 after that.

[twcpfan1]

My criteria isn't "2 Sport Athlete". Why have an athlete that really good in several types of sports, but never the best in either sport?

Either way, Jordan is not the best ever in his sport in my opinion.

[twcpfan1]

Jordan had a career avg of 30.1 pts ppg....Kobe has a career avg of 24.6 pts ppg. Jordan has 5 NBA MVP's and 6 Rings....Kobe has 0 NBA MVP's and 3 Rings (w/ arguably the best Center of All-Time, in Shaquille O'Neal.) Jordan has 1 Defensive NBA MVP....Kobe has 0. Jordan has been NBA Finals MVP, 6 times....while Kobe has played in 3 NBA Finals and claimed 0 MVP Awards.

IYO....
What, exactly, is Kobe better at, than Jordan? I'm curious.

I do not even want to get into how the referees and the NBA really helped Jordan out. And you just made my point. Why would Kobe score as much as Jordan does if he had the big guy to share the offensive load with. Both are great individual players. I think Kobe has a better jumpshot. Not sure what the career FG percentage is for both.

Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are better basketball players than both Kobe and Michael. Simply for the reason that they made their team better. No way Jordan's best Chicago team beats Magic's and Bird's best teams. Or Dr J's and Moses Malone's Sixers team. Not even going to mention the Detroit bad boys. It won't even be close against any of those teams.

[BlackandRed05]

I believe both had 3 championships their first 10 years. The Bulls got another 3 after that.
Heres some of Jordans accomplishments for you.
Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1987-88, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1995-96, 1997-98)
Ten-time All-NBA First Team selection (1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Selected in 1996 as one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"
A member of six Chicago Bulls NBA championship teams (1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98)
Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
The 1987-88 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and record nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection (1987-88 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Entering 2002-03, ranked first in NBA history in scoring average (31.0 ppg), second in steals (2,391), fourth in points (30,652) and in field-goals made (11,513), fifth in free-throws made (7,061), sixth in field-goals attempted (23,010) and eighth in free-throws attempted (8,448)
Closed the 1997-98 season as the Bulls' all-time franchise leader in points, rebounds (5,836), assists (5,012), steals, games (930), field-goals made and attempted and free-throws made and attempted (8,115)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in scoring (10)
Shares the NBA record with Wilt Chamberlain for most consecutive seasons leading the league in scoring (seven, 1986-87 to 1992-93)
Holds the NBA record for most consecutive games scoring in double-digits (842)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in field-goals made (10) and attempted (10)
Led the NBA in steals in 1987-88 (3.16 spg), 1989-90 (2.77 spg) and 1992-93 (2.83 spg)
Holds the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one half (20 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most most free-throws attempted in one half (23 in the same game)
Shares the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one quarter (14 against the Utah Jazz on 11/15/89 and against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most free-throws attempted in one quarter (23 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92)
Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average (41.0 ppg in 1993)
Entering the 2002-03 season, ranks as the all-time NBA Finals leader in three-pointers made (42), second in three-point attempts (114), third in points (1,176), fourth in steals (62), fifth in field-goals made (438), sixth in assists (209) and free-throws made (258), seventh in field-goals attempted (911) and eighth in free-throws attempted (320)
Holds the NBA Playoffs record for highest career scoring average (33.4 ppg)
Established an NBA Playoffs record with 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 5/20/86
Entering the 2002-03 season ranks as the all-time NBA Playoffs leader in field-goals attempted (4,497), free-throws made (1,463) and attempted (1,766), second in steals (376) and field-goals made (2,188), fifth in assists (1,022), seventh in three-point attempts (446) and ninth in three-pointers made (148)
Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (5/9/89 and 6/2/93)
Participated in 13 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98, 2002-03), starting 13 times, and missed another due to injury
Named the MVP of the 1988, 1996 and 1998 NBA All-Star Games
All-time NBA All-Star Game leader in steals (35) and ranks second in field-goal attempts (206), third in points (242), fourth in scoring average (20.2 ppg), and eighth in assists (52)
Notched the first triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland

Notched his 28th career triple-double, with 30 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists, against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97
Returned from retirement against the Indiana Pacers on 3/19/95 and posted 19 points, six rebounds, six assists and three steals in 43 minutes

[svfootball45]

No way Jordan makes my list.

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

Ali would be close to the top of the list if not the top.

The athletes who played 2 or more major sports at the highest level must be considered:

Tom Glavine
Bo Jackson
Deion Sanders
Danny Ainge. (3)

Jesse Owens, Mark Spitz and Tiger Woods are good choices.

Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg also deserve some consideration.

Bo ran a 4.12 enough said

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I believe both had 3 championships their first 10 years. The Bulls got another 3 after that.

In their first 10 yrs....

MJ av'gd 31.0 pts ppg.
Kobe av'gd 23.6 pts ppg.

MJ had 1 NBA Defensive MVP Award and 3 NBA MVP Awards.
Kobe had 0 NBA Defensive MVP Awards and 0 NBA MVP Awards.

In his 1st year, Jordan av'gd 28.2 pts ppg and 6.2 rebounds.
In his 1st year, Kobe av'gd 7.6 pts ppg and 1.9 rebounds.

[twcpfan1]

All Jordan's numbers tell me is that he dominated the offense on a team that did not have a lot of other options and he happened to play against less than stellar competition.

So while the numbers are impressive, I'll still take Magic and Bird.

[t-long20]

All Jordan's numbers tell me is that he dominated the offense on a team that did not have a lot of other options and he happened to play against less than stellar competition.

So while the numbers are impressive, I'll still take Magic and Bird.

key word here is greatest "athlete" and you just cant argue with the facts


14 time All-Star
Olympic Gold Medal Winner—1984, 1992
Five time MVP—1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998
7 time The Sporting News MVP
Rookie of the Year—1984
Defensive Player of the Year—1988
11 times All-NBA—10 times first team, 1 time second team
9 time All-Defensive First Team
Sports Illustrated "Sportsman of the Year"—1991
Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History in 1996

Records
Most scoring titles—10
Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
Highest career scoring average—30.12
Highest career scoring average playoffs—33.45
Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Bo ran a 4.12 enough said

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The NFL did not begin using partial electronic timing (started by hand, stopped electronically) at the Scouting Combine until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005.

Bo Jackson ran his 40 in 1986. If you go by "hand timed" 40's... Darrell Green and DeAngelo Hall, both ran a 4.15 and supposedly Joey Galloway ran a 4.06.

You do the math.

[twcpfan1]

key word here is greatest "athlete" and you just cant argue with the facts

Here is the criteria that was set at the start of the thread and keep in mind we are considering all sports. Not just basketball.

"My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?"

1- not even close. Magic and Bird are miles ahead there
2- same
3- He never did. The Pistons used him like a girlfriend
4- Ali, Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson are the only ones who should even be considered in this category.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

All Jordan's numbers tell me is that he dominated the offense on a team that did not have a lot of other options and he happened to play against less than stellar competition.

So while the numbers are impressive, I'll still take Magic and Bird.

Jordan (drafted in 1984) played against and in the same era as these guys Larry Bird (drafted in 1978), Magic Johnson (drafted in 1979), Isiah Thomas (drafted in 1981), Charles Barkley (drafted in 1984), Moses Malone (drafted in 1976), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (drafted in 1969), Julius Irving (drafted in 1972), John Stockton (drafted in 1984) and Karl Malone (drafted in 1985).

So much for stellar competition.

[twcpfan1]

Jordan (drafted in 1984) played against and in the same era as these guys Larry Bird (drafted in 1978), Magic Johnson (drafted in 1979), Isiah Thomas (drafted in 1981), Charles Barkley (drafted in 1984), Moses Malone (drafted in 1976), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (drafted in 1969), Julius Irving (drafted in 1972), John Stockton (drafted in 1984) and Karl Malone (drafted in 1985).

So much for stellar competition.

Jordan never beat Magic, Larry, Kareem, Moses, Julius, Isaiah at the height of their careers. I thought I already made that clear.

Ok he beat Malone, Stockton and Barkley. :rolleyes:

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Here is the criteria that was set at the start of the thread and keep in mind we are considering all sports. Not just basketball.

"My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?"

1- not even close. Magic and Bird are miles ahead there
2- same
3- He never did. The Pistons used him like a girlfriend
4- Ali, Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson are the only ones who should even be considered in this category.


The Bulls won 6 Championships in Jordan's era. Detroit won 2. And while Detroit beat the Bulls 3 times, in a row in the Playoffs, Chicago finally beat Detroit in 1991, (in the Playoffs) on their way to their first NBA title.

I'd take the 6 titles and 5 MVP awards... but that's just me, I guess.

[twcpfan1]

The Bulls won 6 Championships in Jordan's era. Detroit won 2. And while Detroit beat the Bulls 3 times, in a row in the Playoffs, Chicago finally beat Detroit in 1991, (in the Playoffs) on their way to their first NBA title.

I'd take the 6 titles and 5 MVP awards... but that's just me, I guess.

I would too. But hardware is not what this thread is about. Bill Russell had 11.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I would too. But hardware is not what this thread is about. Bill Russell had 11.

Ya, what'd he score on the Minneapolis Lakers, again? How about against the Syracuse Nationals?

Lets see... going by your earlier argument, who did Russell play against? Competition? Strength of era?

Don't get me wrong... Bill Russell is a champion.. but he didn't play in an overly tough era.

[twcpfan1]

Ya, what'd he score on the Minneapolis Lakers, again? How about against the Syracuse Nationals?

Lets see... going by your earlier argument, who did Russell play against? Competition? Strength of era?

Don't get me wrong... Bill Russell is a champion.. but he didn't play in an overly tough era.

Wilt
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor.
Oscar Robertson

Do you think those guys might be pretty good?

Anyway, I'm done arguing. But a final note. Because of where Jordan and the NBA ended up taking USA Basketball (it is a 2nd rate league now. And not even remotely fun to watch.even you need to acknowledge that), no way he makes this list IMO.

[BlackandRed05]

Jordan never beat Magic, Larry, Kareem, Moses, Julius, Isaiah at the height of their careers. I thought I already made that clear.

Ok he beat Malone, Stockton and Barkley. :rolleyes:

By the 1990-91 season, the Bulls had run out of excuses, and charged through the year with a mission. They recorded a then franchise record 61 wins, and romped through the playoffs, where they swept the Pistons in the conference finals and won the Finals in five over the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers on June 12, 1991. Michael Jordan won regular season MVP and Finals MVP to go with his fifth straight scoring title.

The Pistons' championship run came to an end in the 1991 Eastern Conference Finals, when the team was defeated by the eventual NBA champion Chicago Bulls, 4 games to 0, which is best remembered for the Pistons walking off the court before the game actually ended. After this, the franchise went through a lengthy transitional period, as key players either retired (Laimbeer in 1993 and Thomas in 1994) or were traded (Edwards, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman among others). The team quickly declined, bottoming out in the 1993-94 season when they finished 20–62.
Source : Wikipedia

[DiamondJ2]

In baseball yes Jackie Robinson, but add Ernie Banks playing for the lowly Chicago Cubs. What he did defensively and most definetly offensively was amazing.

If you do it by eras:
before 1920: Ty Cobb & Cy Young
1920's: Babe Ruth
1930's: Lou Gehrig & Walter Johnson
1940's: Ted Williams & Joe Dimaggio
1950's: Willie Mays
1960's: Frank Robinson & Sandy Koufax
1970's: Pete Rose
1980's:
1990's: Nolan Ryan
2000's: Alex Rodriquez or Balco & the 3 monkees (owners [see no evil], commissioner[hear no evil], players[speak no evil])

[BlackandRed05]

Roberto Clemente could go on that list too.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Someone who would argue Michael Jordan's competition, then say...

Especially with the criteria you have layed out. Kobe Bryant is already better than him.

...loses the ability to argue any further. JMO. Larry Bird even said, after experiencing Jordan score 63 pts, in a playoff game vs Bird's Celtics (1986), "I think he's God disguised as Michael Jordan." Nuff said.

[TheBigPeach]

The Top 10 Greatest Athletes of All-Time!

It's tough doing a list like this, because you're asking for the Top 10 Best athletes of any and all era's. There have been countless superb athletes, so trying to break the list down to 100 is tough enough. Breaking down a list to 10 is insane.

My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?

http://www.michael-jordan.ws/images/michael4.jpg
1) Michael Jordan
"His Airness" was drafted 3rd, overall, after Hakeem Olajuwon and....Sam Bowie! Righttt! Went on win 5 NBA MVP's,5 NBA Finals MVP's, 1 NBA Defensive MVP, 6 World Championships and 1 Olympic Gold Medal. He holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.1 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. He played against, and in, the toughest NBA era, that ever was - against the likes of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Julius Irving, John Stockton and Karl Malone. He championed them all. Simply put, he's the greatest NBA player of All-Time....and the best competitor I've ever seen.

http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/Studentpages/alam/jr127.jpg
2) Jerry Rice
Yes, he had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing to him, so it was a tad bit simpler...but they absolutely needed his brilliance, just as much. It was mutual. 20 NFL Seasons, 13 Pro Bowls, 3 Super Bowl Rings and Numerous NFL Records are achievements listed under Rice's name. He is the All-Time leader in receptions, rec. yds, all-purpose yds, tds by a wr and td receptions... and no one is even close... yet. Can you believe he was drafted as the second WR, behind AL Toon...and ran a 4.71 in the 40 yds dash at the NFL Combine. His achievements, as a skinny'sh 6'2 185 lbs is phenomenal.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GB/FL0320~Muhammad-Ali-Posters.jpg
3) Muhammad Ali
Born Cassius Clay, in 1942. He fought in the best Heavyweight era, that ever was. (1960-1981) His opponents were some of the greatest boxers of all-time, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Joe Frazier, Buster Mathis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes. He was flamboyant and magical. He was a 3-Time World Champ and Gold Medalist. He championed his personal and economical causes with no fear and faced worldly criticism. There's no doubt he is a Top 5.

http://img.search.com/thumb/a/af/Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg/300px-Waynegretzky_oilers.jpg
4) Wayne Gretsky
Nicknamed "The Great One", Wayne is regarded by most Hockey enthusiasts as the Greatest Hockey player of All-Time. I concur. He set 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, 6 All-Star records, won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers, and won 9 MVP awards and 10 scoring titles. He is the only player ever to total over 200 points in a season (a feat that he accomplished four times in his career). In addition, he tallied over 100 points a season for 15 NHL seasons, 13 of them consecutively. He also was a 15 time NHL All-Star.

5) Tiger Woods
Woods has held the number one position in the world rankings for the most consecutive weeks and for the greatest total number of weeks. He has been awarded PGA Tour Player of the Year for a record eight times. He has been named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year four times. He has 79 Career Professional wins, including 12 Major Titles. All of this having been a professional for just 10 yrs. In the modern era, Woods is the only golfer to have won 10 majors before the age of 30. Due to the innovation of the sport and level of competition, many writers and golf enthusiasts see Woods as the greatest golfer of All-Time... and judging the norm, Woods has yet to hit his prime.

6) Barry Sanders
If he had the O-line that Emmitt Smith had, he'd have nearly 25,000 rushing yds. He achieved Pro Bowl status in all of his 10 seasons as a pro. Sanders was named All-Pro from 1989-1991 and 1993-1997 and was named All-Pro second team the '89, '92, '93, '96, and '98. Sanders was also named All-NFC from 1989-1992 to 1994-1997. Sanders was named NFL Rookie of the Year in '89, NFL MVP in '91, Offensive MVP in '94, MVP in '97, and was named to the 1990s NFL All-Decade team. He played in the best era of the sport (1989-1999) and was easily the best NFL athlete on the field. Though he doesn't hold the rushing record, he put up 15,269 yds in just 10 yrs...with a below average (horrible) offensive line and team.

7) Magic Johnson
3-time NBA MVP, 5-time NBA Champion, 3-time NBA Finals MVP, 12-time All-Star, 2-time All-Star MVP and a 1992 Olympic gold medalist. His career was cut short, or IMO, he and MJ would tie as the #1 NBA players of All-Time. The wars he had against Bird (Celtics) are remembered, by many, as the best rivalry on the NBA hardwood. In 905 NBA games, he scored 17,707 points, 6,559 rebounds and 10,141 assists, translating to career averages of 19.5 points, 7.2 rebounds and 11.2 assists per game. He (Lakers) won 5 NBA titles.

8) Mark Spitz
Between 1965 and 1972, Spitz won 9 Olympic gold medals, 1 silver, and 1 bronze; 5 Pan American golds; 31 National U.S. Amateur Athletic Union titles; and 8 U.S. National Collegiate Athletic Association Championships. During those years, he set 33 world records..simply put, he was the best athlete in the world, in those 6 yrs. IMO, that would be the equivalent of Tiger Woods
winning 20 of 24 Majors, over 6 yrs.

9) Jesse Owens
Owens was born in Oakville, Alabama in 1913. In HS, he tied the world record of 9.4 seconds in the 100-yard dash and long-jumped 24 feet 9 1/2 inches (7.56 m) at the 1933 National High School Championship in Chicago. He didn't receive a scholarschip. He won a record eight individual NCAA championships, four each in 1935 and 1936. (Only been matched - in 1 yr - in 2006, by Xavier Carter of LSU.) Amid Natzi vs the World Idealism, Owens traveled to the Berlin Olympic Games - where it was percieved that Blacks were inferior to Whites - and won an unprecedented 4 Gold Medals. (100 M, 200 M, 4 x 100 M and Long Jump) Hitler - who was in attendance - refused to acknowledge him, in disgrace. I rank Owens at #1, because he competed against the entire world, and at his time, was simply the best athlete in the world.

10) Pele
"The King Pele".... Pele scored 1281 pts in 1363 games. In league games, the number was 589 in 605 games. The Brazilian League System was the strongest system in Pele's era, of which he competed. He is the all-time top scorer in the history of the Brazil national team and is the only footballer to be a part of three World Cup-winning teams (it should be noted that though he was named part of the 1962 squad, he was injured and did not receive a winner's medal). In high-level tournaments, Pele (his team) won 32 Championships (the most), including 3 World Cups. Simply put, Pele was THE pioneer of the world soccer (football) game. He went from Shoe Shiner to Legend, in an amazing lifetime.


Source: Wikipedia

When Tigers done he may be numero uno.

[svfootball45]

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The NFL did not begin using partial electronic timing (started by hand, stopped electronically) at the Scouting Combine until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005.

Bo Jackson ran his 40 in 1986. If you go by "hand timed" 40's... Darrell Green and DeAngelo Hall, both ran a 4.15 and supposedly Joey Galloway ran a 4.06.

You do the math.

i did the math and bo jackson= BAMF'n superstar

[t-long20]

Here is the criteria that was set at the start of the thread and keep in mind we are considering all sports. Not just basketball.

"My criteria is:

1) Strength of Era - The athlete had to play in the toughest era of their particular sport.
2) Level of opposition - Did they beat the best, of the best era?
3) Dominance of Era - How bad did they beat the best, of the best era?
4) Environmental Handicaps - What barriers or records or infrastructures/pressures did they overcome,
to achieve dominance?"

1- not even close. Magic and Bird are miles ahead there
2- same
3- He never did. The Pistons used him like a girlfriend
4- Ali, Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson are the only ones who should even be considered in this category.


so why arent magic and bird on your list if there era was sooo hard...i mean you act like jordan can pick and choose what era he wanted to play in your basiclly saying the era he dominated was alot slower even though it was in the 90's, the fact is he is the GOAT and that without him the bulls wouldnt even have one championship and you just come up with stupid excuses to why he is not

he did beat the best and almost single handedly too i mean are you gonna really sit there and try to convince me larry or magic are better, look at the teams they were on?

the pistons used him like a girlfriend? fyi the pistons where called the motor city "bad boys" for a reason they used everyone they played like a girlfriend they especially had to play dirty when it came to MJ because he could easily take over a game by himself

those are great athletes but to sit there and ignore MJ's accomplishments as not being one of the best is pure ignorance, go ahead and come up with some more excuses to why mj is not the goat

[MidLineOption73]

When Tigers done he may be numero uno.


Tiger is not an athlete!!! :eek: What is his 40? The only person that he competes against is himself. He plays a life time liesure activity not a sport. Put someone in front of him so that he has to make a shot under duress or have someone come up and try to block his put then maybe it would be a sport. :D ;) :p :rolleyes:

[TheBigPeach]

[QUOTE=MidLineOption73;482631]


Tiger is not an athlete!!! :eek: What is his 40? The only person that he competes against is himself. He plays a life time liesure activity not a sport. Put someone in front of him so that he has to make a shot under duress or have someone come up and try to block his put then maybe it would be a sport.

How can you call Tiger not an athlete? Do you know how much time is put into developing his swing? I dont know either but alot :). Bottom Line Tiger is an athlete.

[drgnbkr]

Tiger is not an athlete!!! :eek: What is his 40? The only person that he competes against is himself. He plays a life time liesure activity not a sport. Put someone in front of him so that he has to make a shot under duress or have someone come up and try to block his put then maybe it would be a sport. :D ;) :p :rolleyes:

If you've ever tried to play golf, you understand that it is constant duress just trying to hit that little white pill..especially with Phil, VJ, and a host of others constantly chasing you. And with the constant pressure to compete, it's no wonder he is considered one of the all time great athletes.

[MidLineOption73]

I have slapped whitey aroud a few times. My contention is that golf is more of a life time liesure activity that a sport. I dont see many 80 year old playing football, baseball, or hockey. But everytime I go to the links there are hundreds. I also still contend that the only person that he has to compete withis himself, and not the othere greats in the activty..:rolleyes: :D

[pied]

I will probably get a lot of grief. Well I already do, but might as well as add this to this the list.

Very sticky to determine your criteria. I would have:

Dominating the competition.
Must have a lot of competition.
I really like to see a lot of rings, shows that you can get it done when it counts.
The above can be countered by extenuating circumstances, freak numbers etc.

I also would give extra consideration to those who "revolutionized" the game.

OK. Here is where I open up my can of worms. Almost inarguably, the world's sport for the better part of 100 years has been soccer. It has been the sport that has drawn more of the wolrd's best athletes for many years. I am not certain how you can have 4/10 spots for football/basketball, which have only been at the eight of popularity for 40 years(FB) and 30 years(BB) and have only one soccer player.

My breakdown would have

2-3 soccer
2-4 track and field/Olymipc events
1-2 Golf/Tennis
1-2 Boxing
1-2 Football
1-2 Baseball
1-2 Basketball


So my initial list would be
Soccer:
Pele/Maradona/either Yashin or Cruyff

T&F/Olympic:
Jesse Owens/Bob Beamon/Alberto Tomba/Spitz

Golf/Tennis:
Nickalus(for now)/Borg(for now)-I imagine it will be Federer and Tiger very soon.

Boxing:
Ali/Louis

Baseball:
Ruth

Football:
Vince Young in the future, sticking to now Jim Brown/Jerry Rice

Basketball:
Wilt and Jordan

[twcpfan1]

so why arent magic and bird on your list if there era was sooo hard...i mean you act like jordan can pick and choose what era he wanted to play in your basiclly saying the era he dominated was alot slower even though it was in the 90's, the fact is he is the GOAT and that without him the bulls wouldnt even have one championship and you just come up with stupid excuses to why he is not

he did beat the best and almost single handedly too i mean are you gonna really sit there and try to convince me larry or magic are better, look at the teams they were on?

the pistons used him like a girlfriend? fyi the pistons where called the motor city "bad boys" for a reason they used everyone they played like a girlfriend they especially had to play dirty when it came to MJ because he could easily take over a game by himself

those are great athletes but to sit there and ignore MJ's accomplishments as not being one of the best is pure ignorance, go ahead and come up with some more excuses to why mj is not the goat

tlong that's the thing. Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are going to become Hall of Famers because they played with Bird. Bird and Magic made their teams better. I never said that they do not make the list. I have not made up my list yet. But they would make it before Jordan. Although there may be 10 guys from other sports who might make it before any NBA player does. NBA is the minor league. This has been proven time and time again. Those guys cannot play when the rules of the game are actually enforced. Hard for me to include any of those guys.

Detroit owned Jordan. The Bulls finally beat them in 1991 at the back end of that Pistons run. Anyway everybody has their opinion on this. They do not need me to validate it.

[twcpfan1]

If you've ever tried to play golf, you understand that it is constant duress just trying to hit that little white pill..especially with Phil, VJ, and a host of others constantly chasing you. And with the constant pressure to compete, it's no wonder he is considered one of the all time great athletes.

I don't think you need to be a golfer to figure out that nobody plays defense in golf. Yes it must take an incredible amount of skill and dedication to play at the highest level. And while I will argue for the inclusion of golfers in the top 10 athletes list, I can also understand the other side of the argument.

[grayowl60]

Secretariat

[twcpfan1]

Babe Didrikson

[BlackandRed05]

Magic Johnson made Kareem Abdul Jabbar a better player huh?:rolleyes: Man, Ive heard it all now.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

tlong that's the thing. Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are going to become Hall of Famers because they played with Bird. Bird and Magic made their teams better. I never said that they do not make the list. I have not made up my list yet. But they would make it before Jordan. Although there may be 10 guys from other sports who might make it before any NBA player does. NBA is the minor league. This has been proven time and time again. Those guys cannot play when the rules of the game are actually enforced. Hard for me to include any of those guys.

Detroit owned Jordan. The Bulls finally beat them in 1991 at the back end of that Pistons run. Anyway everybody has their opinion on this. They do not need me to validate it.

And Jordan didn't make Pippen (HOF'er) and the Bulls a better team? C'mon bro... that's crazy. The bulls went 72-10 (best ever), 69-13, 62-20 and 67-20 in 4 of their 6 title years. (Not many teams can match that!) If Jordan didn't make his team better, than he must have done it all himself... wouldn't that feat make him more worthy of being the "Greatest Athlete of All-Time"? He, without making his team better, won all those titles by himself....that's crazy.

Jordan, without making his team better, beat...

Ewing and the Knicks (Playoffs)
Magic and the Lakers (Playoffs)
Isiah and the Pistons (Playoffs)
Malone/Stockton and the Jazz (Playoffs)
Price/Nance/Daugherty and the Cavaliers (Playoffs)
Wilkins and the Hawks (Playoffs)
Barkley and the 76'ers (Playoffs)
Kemp and the Sonics (Playoffs)
Shaq and the Magic (Playoffs)
Barkley/Majerle and the Suns (Playoffs)
Mourning and the Heat (Playoffs)
Webber/Howard/Strickland and Washington (Playoffs)
Drexler and the Trailblazers (Playoffs)

...all by himself! That's alot of HOF'ers (great teams) to beat, without making your team better.;)

[DiamondJ2]

Best all-around sport athletically? Got to go with basketball. No other sport has to do so much and sometimes all of the below a few seconds. Run at different angles, stop, jump, pass, catch, shoot, play defense, block out, and know both multiple offensive and multiple defensive schemes.

[dada]

And Jordan didn't make Pippen (HOF'er) and the Bulls a better team? C'mon bro... that's crazy. The bulls went 72-10 (best ever), 69-13, 62-20 and 67-20 in 4 of their 6 title years. (Not many teams can match that!) If Jordan didn't make his team better, than he must have done it all himself... wouldn't that feat make him more worthy of being the "Greatest Athlete of All-Time"? He, without making his team better, won all those titles by himself....that's crazy.

Jordan, without making his team better, beat...

Ewing and the Knicks (Playoffs)
Magic and the Lakers (Playoffs)
Isiah and the Pistons (Playoffs)
Malone/Stockton and the Jazz (Playoffs)
Price/Nance/Daugherty and the Cavaliers (Playoffs)
Wilkins and the Hawks (Playoffs)
Barkley and the 76'ers (Playoffs)
Kemp and the Sonics (Playoffs)
Shaq and the Magic (Playoffs)
Barkley/Majerle and the Suns (Playoffs)
Mourning and the Heat (Playoffs)
Webber/Howard/Strickland and Washington (Playoffs)
Drexler and the Trailblazers (Playoffs)

...all by himself! That's alot of HOF'ers (great teams) to beat, without making your team better.;)

Like KT said...Kobe had Shaq....look where Kobe is now
Jordan won titles with
Bill Cartwright
Luc Longley
Will Purdue
Stacey King
Bill Wennington
That alone is amazing.

[KT2000]

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."- Earvin "Magic" Johnson

[yankee]

just to throw out a few more names...lance armstrong, babe ruth, willie mays. don't know how they stack up with numbers (armstrong had the 7 titles, ruth 714 hr's, mays is 4th all time in hr's). but those guys dominated their sports at that time.

[twcpfan1]

For all of you who feel that Jordan is the greatest of all time in any sport, that's your opinion. I don't. Not even in basketball. Guess we'll just all have to agree to disagree.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

For all of you who feel that Jordan is the greatest of all time in any sport, that's your opinion. I don't. Not even in basketball. Guess we'll just all have to agree to disagree.

I respect your opinion, bro.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

just to throw out a few more names...lance armstrong, babe ruth, willie mays. don't know how they stack up with numbers (armstrong had the 7 titles, ruth 714 hr's, mays is 4th all time in hr's). but those guys dominated their sports at that time.

I may be alone, here, but those who would crucify Barry Bonds should do the same for Armstrong. I've talked to many people who feel Armstrong DID use steroids. (None of the people I talked to are significant people, as if it matters.) Obviously, alledged use should be enough to discredit a player, these days.

Ruth played in an era where "Colored People Weren't Allowed To Play".... sorry, for that alone I cannot and will not acknowledge any player before Robinson arrived. MLB did it to themselves.

And...
If I were to put Mays down for his HR's, I'd put Hammerin' Hank before him.

Don't worry though.... I just an All-Time list that had MARK MCGWIRE ranked as #1.

[yankee]

I may be alone, here, but those who would crucify Barry Bonds should do the same for Armstrong. I've talked to many people who feel Armstrong DID use steroids. (None of the people I talked to are significant people, as if it matters.) Obviously, alledged use should be enough to discredit a player, these days.

Ruth played in an era where "Colored People Weren't Allowed To Play".... sorry, for that alone I cannot and will not acknowledge any player before Robinson arrived. MLB did it to themselves.

And...
If I were to put Mays down for his HR's, I'd put Hammerin' Hank before him.

Don't worry though.... I just an All-Time list that had MARK MCGWIRE ranked as #1.

i agree with the alledged use thing, but bonds never dominated baseball the way armstrong dominated cycling...and cycling is a physically tougher sport than baseball...by a long shot!

i just threw mays out there because i knew where he stood on home runs...according to wiki he's also: appeared in 24 all-star games!!! (tied most all-time), 4th all time hr's, 3rd all-time career bases, 5th in extra base hits, 7th career runs, 9th career games, 10th career rbi's, 2 mvp's, led nl in hr's 4 times, led nl in 3b's 3 times, led nl in sb's 4 consecutive seasons, 12 consecutive gold gloves!!!, 1 world series ring, 1st of only 4 men with 500 hr's and 3,000 hits (and one of them is rafael palmeiro :mad: ). i don't know how that stacks up with hammerin' hank, but that is damn impressive.

[twcpfan1]

I may be alone, here, but those who would crucify Barry Bonds should do the same for Armstrong. I've talked to many people who feel Armstrong DID use steroids. (None of the people I talked to are significant people, as if it matters.) Obviously, alledged use should be enough to discredit a player, these days.

Ruth played in an era where "Colored People Weren't Allowed To Play".... sorry, for that alone I cannot and will not acknowledge any player before Robinson arrived. MLB did it to themselves.

And...
If I were to put Mays down for his HR's, I'd put Hammerin' Hank before him.

Don't worry though.... I just an All-Time list that had MARK MCGWIRE ranked as #1.

Even if Armstrong was taking the drugs to cure his cancer, it still enhanced his performance. I know it sounds cold blooded but this should disqualify him from the list just the same.

[KT2000]

Bill Cartwright
Luc Longley
Will Purdue
Stacey King
Bill Wennington


Seriously, cavdad, read those names slowly. :)

Jordan deserves the Nobel, Pulitzer, Oscar and whatever other award you can think of for winning with those guys as his big men. Un-freaking-believable.

[AE 8008]

Best all-around sport athletically? Got to go with basketball. No other sport has to do so much and sometimes all of the below a few seconds. Run at different angles, stop, jump, pass, catch, shoot, play defense, block out, and know both multiple offensive and multiple defensive schemes.



i agree, you have to be very athletic to play basketball. i think baseball may be the toughest though. natural hand-eye coordination and timing down to the hundredth of a second. swing .05 seconds too early, you might pop it up or hit a a grounder to short. .05 seconds too late, and you strike out. your eyesight has to be like an eagle in order to pick up the seams of a ball moving anywhere from 70-100 mph. adjusting to change of speed. the mental game. knowing every situation. so many fundamentals that, if not followed, can screw the whole process up.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

i agree with the alledged use thing, but bonds never dominated baseball the way armstrong dominated cycling...and cycling is a physically tougher sport than baseball...by a long shot!

i just threw mays out there because i knew where he stood on home runs...according to wiki he's also: appeared in 24 all-star games!!! (tied most all-time), 4th all time hr's, 3rd all-time career bases, 5th in extra base hits, 7th career runs, 9th career games, 10th career rbi's, 2 mvp's, led nl in hr's 4 times, led nl in 3b's 3 times, led nl in sb's 4 consecutive seasons, 12 consecutive gold gloves!!!, 1 world series ring, 1st of only 4 men with 500 hr's and 3,000 hits (and one of them is rafael palmeiro :mad: ). i don't know how that stacks up with hammerin' hank, but that is damn impressive.

I wasn't comparing the two sports, I just stated my opinion about Barry Bonds. He has been crucified by the media/fans, yet he is alledged to have cheated. Armstrong has been alledged to have cheated, but due to his All-American smile and previous bouts with cancer, he gets a pass.

And I never said Barry dominated his sport.

[yankee]

I wasn't comparing the two sports, I just stated my opinion about Barry Bonds. He has been crucified by the media/fans, yet he is alledged to have cheated. Armstrong has been alledged to have cheated, but due to his All-American smile and previous bouts with cancer, he gets a pass.

And I never said Barry dominated his sport.

well i was just stating that even though you brought bonds into the conversation about cheating, he never dominated baseball, and therefore should not be in the conversation.

bonds has created a negative image for himself, it's not just a crucifixion alone by the media. while he has been targeted relentlessly by the media, the "facts" are out there. his appearance (dinosaur-like head, linebacker body, body breaking down, "backne")...his trainers...etc. etc. you get the idea. i think he's been targeted more because of the "evidence". hasn't lance passed every test? i don't recall any info on bonds' tests...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

well i was just stating that even though you brought bonds into the conversation about cheating, he never dominated baseball, and therefore should not be in the conversation.

bonds has created a negative image for himself, it's not just a crucifixion alone by the media. while he has been targeted relentlessly by the media, the "facts" are out there. his appearance (dinosaur-like head, linebacker body, body breaking down, "backne")...his trainers...etc. etc. you get the idea. i think he's been targeted more because of the "evidence". hasn't lance passed every test? i don't recall any info on bonds' tests...

Bonds is the all-time major league leader in career walks (2,454) and intentional walks (656). He is 2nd in career home runs with 746, trailing only Hank Aaron who hit 755; Bonds also ranks 2nd in extra base hits (1,412), 3rd in at bats per home run (13.0), 4th in RBI's (1955), 5th in total bases (5,842) and runs (2,175), 6th in on base percentage (.444), and slugging average (.610). Bonds holds the record for the most home runs in a single season set in 2001 with 73. Bonds also tops the list of career home runs in the National League, having eclipsed Aaron's previous record of 733. Bonds has also won an unprecedented record seven MVP awards, with his closest competitors trailing with three.

Through 2006 he also leads all active players in home runs, RBIs (1,930), walks (2,426), intentional walks (645), on-base percentage (.443), runs (2,152), games (2,860), extra base hits (1,398), at bats per home run (13.0), and total bases (5,784). At the same time he is 2nd in doubles (587), slugging average (.608), stolen bases (509), at bats (9,507), and hits (2,874), 4th in triples (77), and 8th in strikeouts (1,485).
Source:Wikipedia

...I'm not an expert, but I'd say those are some pretty dominate numbers! Your statement of "Bonds never dominated baseball" is too vague!;)

[yankee]

Bonds is the all-time major league leader in career walks (2,454) and intentional walks (656). He is 2nd in career home runs with 746, trailing only Hank Aaron who hit 755; Bonds also ranks 2nd in extra base hits (1,412), 3rd in at bats per home run (13.0), 4th in RBI's (1955), 5th in total bases (5,842) and runs (2,175), 6th in on base percentage (.444), and slugging average (.610). Bonds holds the record for the most home runs in a single season set in 2001 with 73. Bonds also tops the list of career home runs in the National League, having eclipsed Aaron's previous record of 733. Bonds has also won an unprecedented record seven MVP awards, with his closest competitors trailing with three.

Through 2006 he also leads all active players in home runs, RBIs (1,930), walks (2,426), intentional walks (645), on-base percentage (.443), runs (2,152), games (2,860), extra base hits (1,398), at bats per home run (13.0), and total bases (5,784). At the same time he is 2nd in doubles (587), slugging average (.608), stolen bases (509), at bats (9,507), and hits (2,874), 4th in triples (77), and 8th in strikeouts (1,485).
Source:Wikipedia

...I'm not an expert, but I'd say those are some pretty dominate numbers! Your statement of "Bonds never dominated baseball" is too vague!;)

if you looked a few posts above and saw that i said "bonds never dominated cycling the way armstrong did"...i should have put that for the second time too...

[twcpfan1]

Seriously, cavdad, read those names slowly. :)

Jordan deserves the Nobel, Pulitzer, Oscar and whatever other award you can think of for winning with those guys as his big men. Un-freaking-believable.

I'm prepared to acknowledge that. But everybody needs to acknowledge that the NBA between 1991 and 1999 changed its whole philosophy from officiating to rules interpretation, to suit Jordan's/Phil Jackson's Bulls. At that point Jordan did not need a dominant big man to win.

I guess you just have to look at how basketball was in Magic's and Bird's dominant years, and then compare it to how it is now because of Jordan's and Stern's influence. Some of the Eastern Conference playoff matchups this year was almost painful to watch. Right up there with sticking needles in your eye. There is no more emphasis on teamwork and fundamentals. It's no wonder we are now a 2nd rate basketball power. Thanks MJ.

[KT2000]

You are pinning the individualism in basketball on Michael Jordan?

I blame that on the breakdown in the teaching of fundamentals, and a big part of that is due to guys coming to the NBA before they are ready.

Jordan learned under one of the most respected teachers of the game of all time in Dean Smith. One could easily make the argument that MJ is the most complete hoops player ever. He worked just as hard defensively as he did on offense. The argument that MJ wasn't a team player holds no water whatsoever in my opinion. He's the definition of a team player.

A couple of MJ's most overlooked accomplishments:

9 time All-Defensive First Team
Three time NBA leading stealer

The rest pretty much speaks for itself.

ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year (1984)
USBWA College Player of the Year (1984)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1984)
John R. Wooden Award (1984)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
NBA Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1997)
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1991)
2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
2000 ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award (1990s)
2000 ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award (1990s)
2000 ESPY Play of the Decade (for his right to left-handed scoop shot against Lakers in the 1991 Finals)

Records

Most scoring titles—10
Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
Highest career scoring average—30.12
Highest career scoring average playoffs—33.45
Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)

[slorch]

I may be alone, here, but those who would crucify Barry Bonds should do the same for Armstrong. I've talked to many people who feel Armstrong DID use steroids. (None of the people I talked to are significant people, as if it matters.) Obviously, alledged use should be enough to discredit a player, these days.

Ruth played in an era where "Colored People Weren't Allowed To Play".... sorry, for that alone I cannot and will not acknowledge any player before Robinson arrived. MLB did it to themselves.

And...
If I were to put Mays down for his HR's, I'd put Hammerin' Hank before him.

Don't worry though.... I just an All-Time list that had MARK MCGWIRE ranked as #1.


i agree with your assessment of Armstrong. His whole era is filled with doping, yet he is clean. Yeah, i believe it.:rolleyes:

[ThEgReAtOnE]

if you looked a few posts above and saw that i said "bonds never dominated cycling the way armstrong did"...i should have put that for the second time too...

yap... you should've...

[twcpfan1]

You are pinning the individualism in basketball on Michael Jordan?

I blame that on the breakdown in the teaching of fundamentals, and a big part of that is due to guys coming to the NBA before they are ready.

Jordan learned under one of the most respected teachers of the game of all time in Dean Smith. One could easily make the argument that MJ is the most complete hoops player ever. He worked just as hard defensively as he did on offense. The argument that MJ wasn't a team player holds no water whatsoever in my opinion. He's the definition of a team player.

A couple of MJ's most overlooked accomplishments:

9 time All-Defensive First Team
Three time NBA leading stealer

The rest pretty much speaks for itself.

ACC Men's Basketball Player of the Year (1984)
USBWA College Player of the Year (1984)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1984)
John R. Wooden Award (1984)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
NBA Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1997)
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1991)
2000 ESPY Athlete of the Century
2000 ESPY Male Athlete Decade Award (1990s)
2000 ESPY Pro Basketballer Decade Award (1990s)
2000 ESPY Play of the Decade (for his right to left-handed scoop shot against Lakers in the 1991 Finals)

Records

Most scoring titles—10
Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
Highest career scoring average—30.12
Highest career scoring average playoffs—33.45
Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)

That's a lot of lifetime achievement awards issued by ESPN and SI. I suspect the respective marketing departments of both might have influenced the voting just a little bit.

Incidentally, I was curious. Do you feel he is the greatest in all of sports?

[slorch]

I'm prepared to acknowledge that. But everybody needs to acknowledge that the NBA between 1991 and 1999 changed its whole philosophy from officiating to rules interpretation, to suit Jordan's/Phil Jackson's Bulls. At that point Jordan did not need a dominant big man to win.

I guess you just have to look at how basketball was in Magic's and Bird's dominant years, and then compare it to how it is now because of Jordan's and Stern's influence. Some of the Eastern Conference playoff matchups this year was almost painful to watch. Right up there with sticking needles in your eye. There is no more emphasis on teamwork and fundamentals. It's no wonder we are now a 2nd rate basketball power. Thanks MJ.

Lonny, why you using another screen name?:D :confused: :cool:

CavDad:

So with the addition of the third official, by your theory, that would explain Kobe's dominance today?

[twcpfan1]

Lonny, why you using another screen name?:D :confused: :cool:

CavDad:

So with the addition of the third official, by your theory, that would explain Kobe's dominance today?

Crap, I was afraid I was starting to sound like him :D

Probably not. The reason he's dominant is because he is quite simply the best player in the NBA today. More natural basketball skills than MJ :eek:

[slorch]

I would consider Gretzky as the greatest ever, over Jordan,for sheer athleticism and dominance. he also truly put the sport on his shoulders and took it to the sunbelt. Only terrible mismanagement by the owners turned the sport into the 2nd rate attraction it is today. Non-puckheads are lost when Gretzky's accomplishments are listed.

I would say Jordan in hoops is a slam dunk, followed closely by Magic.

football- for me it's Walter Payton. There are so many different aspects of the game- how do you compare Larry Allen and Ronnie Lott? and I think linemen get the shaft when greatness and impact to the game is measured.

baseball- Nolan Ryan

[slorch]

Crap, I was afraid I was starting to sound like him :D

Probably not. The reason he's dominant is because he is quite simply the best player in the NBA today. More natural basketball skills than MJ :eek:

I will admit, he's got the chicken-wing-to-the-face down as his signature move.

That's gonna compare well to the fade away shot over Ehlo, or the floating beneath-the-backboard and around-the-other-side- reverse dunk...:D

[dada]

Ali is the Greatest....ESPN said so...lol

[twcpfan1]

Ali is the Greatest....ESPN said so...lol

If they did, they're absolutely correct. :D Ali would be #1 on my list too.

[slorch]

If they did, they're absolutely correct. :D Ali would be #1 on my list too.

he was a great leader, and definately a catalyst for change, but was in dominance at the level of the other top athletes we've mentioned?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I would consider Gretzky as the greatest ever, over Jordan,for sheer athleticism and dominance. he also truly put the sport on his shoulders and took it to the sunbelt. Only terrible mismanagement by the owners turned the sport into the 2nd rate attraction it is today. Non-puckheads are lost when Gretzky's accomplishments are listed.

I would say Jordan in hoops is a slam dunk, followed closely by Magic.

football- for me it's Walter Payton. There are so many different aspects of the game- how do you compare Larry Allen and Ronnie Lott? and I think linemen get the shaft when greatness and impact to the game is measured.

baseball- Nolan Ryan


ESPN did a list of the most overrated athletes of all-time.... and Nolan Ryan was listed at #7... http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html

And to also think, with all those strikeouts and 324 wins, he NEVER won a Cy Young...

[KT2000]

That's a lot of lifetime achievement awards issued by ESPN and SI. I suspect the respective marketing departments of both might have influenced the voting just a little bit.

Incidentally, I was curious. Do you feel he is the greatest in all of sports?

In my opinion, yes.

You must really not like MJ to totally gloss over his accomplishments. SI and ESPN didn't give him most of those.

[twcpfan1]

he was a great leader, and definately a catalyst for change, but was in dominance at the level of the other top athletes we've mentioned?

He didn't pound and physically dominate opponents like Tyson and Foreman did.

But he turned boxing into a sport. More than that, he turned it into an art. Then if you factor in what he meant to our society and that time in our history, he truly was the Greatest.

[slorch]

ESPN did a list of the most overrated athletes of all-time.... and Nolan Ryan was listed at #7... http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html

And to also think, with all those strikeouts and 324 wins, he NEVER won a Cy Young...


yeah, well, you could make a great case for Clemens getting shafted on his 8th when he played on a weaker Astros team, too.

I find it ironic that ESPN, AKA the Hype Machine, would do anything about overration(that sounds like a word Wide would use...:D) Who was the narrater of the show- robin Ventura?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

yeah, well, you could make a great case for Clemens getting shafted on his 8th when he played on a weaker Astros team, too.

I find it ironic that ESPN, AKA the Hype Machine, would do anything about overration(that sounds like a word Wide would use...:D) Who was the narrater of the show- robin Ventura?

Hype Machine... haha..aint that the truth! EuScPN.... they sure know their stuff!

New Official ESPN Holiday.... Jan. 4th!:D


And yap... Clemens WAS robbed!

[twcpfan1]

In my opinion, yes.

You must really not like MJ to totally gloss over his accomplishments. SI and ESPN didn't give him most of those.

MJ took what he was given - by opponents who were intimidated by him. By the NBA establishment who catered to him. And from the media and advertisers who profited from him. That's not his fault.

Just the amount of hypocricy and double standard of the Sports establishment when it comes to this guy. It just bothers me.

When ESPN declared that he was the athlete of the century over Ali, that bordered on offensive, IMO.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

MJ took what he was given - by opponents who were intimidated by him. By the NBA establishment who catered to him. And from the media and advertisers who profited from him. That's not his fault.

Just the amount of hypocricy and double standard of the Sports establishment when it comes to this guy. It just bothers me.

When ESPN declared that he was the athlete of the century over Ali, that bordered on offensive, IMO.

How does that border on offensive cdad? Clearly, Michael Jordan has the stats, awards and trophies to prove his #1 ranking. How many of those "back in tha day" bb players benefited from that same NBA League catering to them? And now you're attacking his advertisers... bro, it's simple... you simply hate the guy. It's called mental block...

No matter how great he was, you'll never ever admit it... stats don't lie - you'll say they do.... the great players before, during and after him consider him the greatest - I'll guess that you'll say they're lying or being political to save face... his team wouldn't have won 1 championship, let alone 6, without MJ - yet you say other great players made their team better and he did not...

You just don't like him... it matters not what he did! I understand your pain... I don't like Babe Ruth. But I think my reasoning is a little more valid than yours, of MJ. (JMO) Can't argue with you putting Ali at #1... he was the pure definition of competitor and champion.

[BlackandRed05]

So the other NBA players were intimidated of Jordan because of his endorsements and the media? Keep going Cav Dad.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

So the other NBA players were intimidated of Jordan because of his endorsements and the media? Keep going Cav Dad.

:D

[slorch]

MJ took what he was given - by opponents who were intimidated by him. By the NBA establishment who catered to him. And from the media and advertisers who profited from him. That's not his fault.

Just the amount of hypocricy and double standard of the Sports establishment when it comes to this guy. It just bothers me.

When ESPN declared that he was the athlete of the century over Ali, that bordered on offensive, IMO.

That's because it was "Athlete of the Century" not "Cultural icon of the century"

I know ali was great, but I also know the libs loved him. I was watching an interview with Bryant Gumbel, who said he cried like a baby when ali lost to Frazier. not because his guy lost, but because he embodies their politcal views as well.

Later, Ali became the humanitarian and tried to continually pay back society. This is where he has won me over, only not as a pure athlete, but as a hero fighting through his own physical limitations.

[twcpfan1]

Need to spare a thought for the futbol guys too. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is played at an elite level in more countries than any other team sport.

More than that, it is not a country club sport like golf and tennis. Everybody gets to play. Taking that into account, these names present a pretty good case for their sport:

Ronaldinho
Pele
Maradona
Zidane
Kaka

[slorch]

elite level soccer might as well be elite hoola-hooping or rose gardening...

[dada]

:D

You BETTER eat your Wheaties!

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Need to spare a thought for the futbol guys too. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is played at an elite level in more countries than any other team sport.

More than that, it is not a country club sport like golf and tennis. Everybody gets to play. Taking that into account, these names present a pretty good case for their sport:

Ronaldinho
Pele
Maradona
Zidane
Kaka

Pele (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKM30xg6x8)... Next....

[twcpfan1]

In my opinion, yes.

You must really not like MJ to totally gloss over his accomplishments. SI and ESPN didn't give him most of those.


KT, I think a lot of it too is a generational thing. Judging from yr nic I suspect that you graduated from Katy in 2000 which happens to be when I turned 40. I grew up idolizing guys like West, Havlicek, Baylor, JoJo White, Oscar, Clyde Frazier, Earl Monroe etc. I really like the game played below the rim. I liked it when an 87% FT percentage was more the rule than the exception. I liked it when just about everybody could nail a mid range jumper. (I feel the NBA range 3 really hurts the game). When Magic and Bird came along, they took that style to a whole new level primarily because they were big guys (both 6'9) playing that type of small ball. Because of these 2 guys, the game flourished to heights never seen again, and I'm not talking about profit although they paved the way for the multi million dollar salaries that exist now.

While MJ is an absolutely terrific athlete, I could never have the same appreciation for his talents that you and I suspect most people of your generation do. It's not a question of better or worse. It's just different.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

KT, I think a lot of it too is a generational thing. Judging from yr nic I suspect that you graduated from Katy in 2000 which happens to be when I turned 40. I grew up idolizing guys like West, Havlicek, Baylor, JoJo White, Oscar, Clyde Frazier, Earl Monroe etc. I really like the game played below the rim. I liked it when an 87% FT percentage was more the rule than the exception. I liked it when just about everybody could nail a mid range jumper. (I feel the NBA range 3 really hurts the game). When Magic and Bird came along, they took that style to a whole new level primarily because they were big guys (both 6'9) playing that type of small ball. Because of these 2 guys, the game flourished to heights never seen again, and I'm not talking about profit although they paved the way for the multi million dollar salaries that exist now.

While MJ is an absolutely terrific athlete, I could never have the same appreciation for his talents that you and I suspect most people of your generation do. It's not a question of better or worse. It's just different.


It's not just "our" generation, bro... that's the point. Many members of the media are much older than you and have seen much more basketball, and sports, than you.... and many of them still rank Jordan as the best they've ever seen. My father (in his early 60's) was big on the NBA for years (70's/80's/90's), and when he talks about the greats he starts with his favorite, Jordan.

It's not just a generational thing... Jordan revolutionized the game. There had been players - before Jordan - that had certain elements that he had, but none had all of the elements, combined. He was clutch, entertaining, confident and..... he looked darn good in a suit.

Easiest thing about Jordan is that you don't have to argue his accomplishments... they speak for themself. Statistically (and Award-wise) he was the best, when it mattered the most. (Ask Bird... even with a below average Bulls team, Jordan put up 63 pts on his Celtics in a playoff game. He said it was like watching God play basketball! - I take his word for it.)

[twcpfan1]

It's not just "our" generation, bro... that's the point. Many members of the media are much older than you and have seen much more basketball, and sports, than you.... and many of them still rank Jordan as the best they've ever seen. My father (in his early 60's) was big on the NBA for years (70's/80's/90's), and when he talks about the greats he starts with his favorite, Jordan.

It's not just a generational thing... Jordan revolutionized the game. There had been players - before Jordan - that had certain elements that he had, but none had all of the elements, combined. He was clutch, entertaining, confident and..... he looked darn good in a suit.

Easiest thing about Jordan is that you don't have to argue his accomplishments... they speak for themself. Statistically (and Award-wise) he was the best, when it mattered the most. (Ask Bird... even with a below average Bulls team, Jordan put up 63 pts on his Celtics in a playoff game. He said it was like watching God play basketball! - I take his word for it.)

TGO, you always know what you're talking about and I do respect your opinion. I definitely cannot argue with the stats. I guess my biggest problem is that everything bad about basketball in the USA today, I associate with the NBA and it's Jordan's face I see with it.

Entertainment and a player's image. Well those things have never been important to me. So based on that, my opinion will probably never coincide with a lot of fans'

[Favpack]

TGO, you always know what you're talking about and I do respect your opinion. I definitely cannot argue with the stats. I guess my biggest problem is that everything bad about basketball in the USA today, I associate with the NBA and it's Jordan's face I see with it.
Entertainment and a player's image. Well those things have never been important to me. So based on that, my opinion will probably never coincide with a lot of fans'

OK - now I get it CD - you've simply mistaken MJ for AI.

MJ would have never, ever worn anything other than a suit in or around the gym - and he made his team-mates follow suit - no pun intended.

No tattoos, no anti-establishment music or demeanor, a tireless practicer. I think you're seeing the wrong face. Jordan was the last of the great b-ballers from the Bird/Magic magical era. You're mistaking Jordan's face for..

Allen Iverson

[twcpfan1]

OK - now I get it CD - you've simply mistaken MJ for AI.

MJ would have never, ever worn anything other than a suit in or around the gym - and he made his team-mates follow suit - no pun intended.

No tattoos, no anti-establishment music or demeanor, a tireless practicer. I think you're seeing the wrong face. Jordan was the last of the great b-ballers from the Bird/Magic magical era. You're mistaking Jordan's face for..

Allen Iverson

I wasn't really talking about the punk stuff off and on the court. I was more referring to the type of game the young ones try to emulate in this day and age. More emphasis on athleticism, spectacular plays and looking good as opposed to teamwork and fundamentals.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I wasn't really talking about the punk stuff off and on the court. I was more referring to the type of game the young ones try to emulate in this day and age. More emphasis on athleticism, spectacular plays and looking good as opposed to teamwork and fundamentals.

Thanx for the compliments, bro.... but can I just say there is no athlete - that has ever lived - that spells out spectacular athleticism and LOOKING GOOD (and letting everyone else know he looks good/self-promoting).... than Muhammad Ali.

Thus boxing (and sports) has evolved to what it is, mainly, from him.

[pied]

OK - now I get it CD - you've simply mistaken MJ for AI.

MJ would have never, ever worn anything other than a suit in or around the gym - and he made his team-mates follow suit - no pun intended.

No tattoos, no anti-establishment music or demeanor, a tireless practicer. I think you're seeing the wrong face. Jordan was the last of the great b-ballers from the Bird/Magic magical era. You're mistaking Jordan's face for..

Allen Iverson

Just curious. What do you make of the gambling allegations that are rumored to have led him to his decision to retire and then come back.

Any issue with the "Omega" tattoo he has?

Also, did he wear a suit when he was cheating on his wife? Did that make it more acceptable?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Just curious. What do you make of the gambling allegations that are rumored to have led him to his decision to retire and then come back.

Also, any issue with the "Omega" tattoo he has?

Also, did he wear a suit when he was cheating on his wife? Did that make it more acceptable?

If we want to start judging past great athletes on how they conducted themselves off the field (arena) and in their personal lives... their would be quite a few players left off the list... starting at Ty Cobb, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Lawrence Taylor and several others.

It's not more acceptable, but it's something that can't really be used to determine who's a great athlete and who's not. That would be interesting... create a list of the Top 10 Greatest Athletes of All-Time, where none of the athletes gambled, cheated on their wives, supposedly were on steroids, self promoters, cheated on their sport, were alcoholics, drug addicts, had tattoos, wore saggy clothing, had braided hair, listened to rap, were always mixed up in fights, just looked thuggish, were/are club hoppers, bad boys or racists. Whoa... what would that list look like?

[twcpfan1]

Thanx for the compliments, bro.... but can I just say there is no athlete - that has ever lived - that spells out spectacular athleticism and LOOKING GOOD (and letting everyone else know he looks good/self-promoting).... than Muhammad Ali.

Thus boxing (and sports) has evolved to what it is, mainly, from him.

Ali rose to prominence in a different sport in a different more turbulent time in our country's history. That's the social aspect of his greatness. The way he presented himself was I think a matter of necessity. Ali was by far not the strongest or anywhere near the physical specimen a lot of his opponents were. That's what made him so great in his sport. He turned it into a tactical, thinking man's sport.

Guys like Holmes, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns carried on the legacy after he left the fight game. It's when Don King preyed on Mike Tyson after his manager and mentor passed away that made boxing the toilet that it is now.

[pied]

If we want to start judging past great athletes on how they conducted themselves off the field (arena) and in their personal lives... their would be quite a few players left off the list... starting at Ty Cobb, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Lawrence Taylor and several others.
[/B]

Don't disagree, just trying to get clarification. It appears that MJ is getting a pass on some of his transgressions.

On topic, I think that you can make a great arguement for Wilt.

How many rules(except the "Jordan Rules" where he got benefits from the refs) were changed because of MJ? Several were for Wilt.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Ali rose to prominence in a different sport in a different more turbulent time in our country's history. That's the social aspect of his greatness. The way he presented himself was I think a matter of necessity. Ali was by far not the strongest or anywhere near the physical specimen a lot of his opponents were. That's what made him so great in his sport. He turned it into a tactical, thinking man's sport.

Guys like Holmes, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns carried on the legacy after he left the fight game. It's when Don King preyed on Mike Tyson after his manager and mentor passed away that made boxing the toilet that it is now.

Ali - while an activist for the civil rights movement - was defnitely a self-promoter. (He can justify it any way he wants.) And athletically he was as gifted, and in many other ways more gifted, than most - if not - all boxers, back then. At 6'3 225 lbs, with his jab, agility and defensive capablities, his athleticism was jaw-dropping.

Boxing is more about acknowledgement, today. Guys take hold of what Ali set - before them - and promote themselves through their own character. Promoters were just a crooked before Don King... it just wasn't a big deal. Boxing isn't in a toilet, it is simply in the aftermath stages of years of money-making, behind the scenes, and the fighters of yester year encouraging/educating fighters of today. (Just wait and see what UFC/MMA fighters do when they start to figure out Dana White is making all the money, and thus start to demand a change.)

Alot of fans hate that athletes don't live to entertain, anymore, instead choosing to entertain ONLY to make money... as an ex-athlete, I love and respect it. Make sure YOU are taken care of.... because when you can't perform anymore you'll be easily discarded.

[mad_fan]

Is TgO not in the running here???:)

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Don't disagree, just trying to get clarification. It appears that MJ is getting a pass on some of his transgressions.

On topic, I think that you can make a great arguement for Wilt.

How many rules(except the "Jordan Rules" where he got benefits from the refs) were changed because of MJ? Several were for Wilt.

Rules will change. Evolution. As athletes become better/advanced - and entertainment standards change - (AND THEY HAVE) a judging/ruling system will change to accomodate them. It sounds crazy, but it's the truth. The game will go where the fans want it to. This is the era of true money making... entertainment (not integrity) is the name of the game.

[dragonsdaddy]

Who was the narrater of the show- robin Ventura?

that is the funniest thing i've read this month. i'll say this. after watching ryan pitch a bloop 1 hitter late in his career, i guarantee that the hardest individual sporting activity would have been hitting off ryan any time in his career after he mastered his wicked hook. 17 k's and buckled knees every one, and all by a 44 year old rancher. he may not be the best athlete ever, but for espn to rank him as over-rated( and they should know that feeling really well-see steven a) is blasphemous. if pro sports ever has another nolan ryan, wake me up from the dead and celebrate. i promise, his strike out and no-hit record will never, ever, never be beaten. rocket r is as close as anyone will get, and he'll finish at least 2 area codes short on k's, and i can't remember any active pitchers with multiple no-hitters. hitting streak records are going to fall long before ryan's records.

[CyFallsMom]

One very overlooked athlete IMO. He was a beast in his day and when I was a kid, I thought he had the coolest football name EVER. I got his biography (Monster of the Midway)for Christmas last year - very interesting guy - wonder how he would match up these days??

http://www.bronkonagurski.com/