When is a "win"

[CCHS77]

not a win?


Come to find out, "wins" shouldn't be counted as wins, when they are;

a.) "Stolen"

or

b.) Not in 5A!

:eek:

[STJL41]

not a win?


Come to find out, "wins" should be counted as wins, when they are;

a.) "Stolen"

or

b.) Not in 5A!

:eek:

I'm confused as to why this subject warrants it's own thread. You couldn't respond to these topics in the threads which they are already mentioned?

[implacable44]

wins are wins - but 3a wins dont carry the same weight as 5a wins. You can't say oh look team x won 500 games in 3a competition and team y won 444 games in 5a competition so team x must be better. - just like you wouldn't say - team ohio beat team texas so ohio football is better than texas or team montana 5a has a 120 game unbeaten streak so they must be better than team texas 5a who only has a 30 game winning streak.

[Redneckn]

A win is a win. Doesnt matter who did it or how they did it. If they won, then props to them.

[SLCDad]

A win is a win. Doesnt matter who did it or how they did it. If they won, then props to them.Unless they cheat.

[mad_fan]

Unless they cheat.

who cheated? i dont get this thread.

[implacable44]

I don't think anybody cheated - except say Dallas Carter maybe - for examples sake. A win is a win.

[Favpack]

Depends on the program. Many here would be beyond delighted to get back into the playoff field. An example might be, say, North Mesquite - a quality program that has been outside looking in since '02 I believe. So, a North Mesquite gets on a roll and wins - they probably aren't concerned "how" the wins look - as long as it's a win.

Conversely, if a quality program looks sloppy and eeks out a win over a much lesser opponent, and they play that way several weeks in a row - the wins matter less and less and the quality of play is the big issue. The goal is nothing less than a deep playoff run. Tyler Lee lost 3 games last year that few remember - they won when it mattered.

[LeanderLions3033]

This thread is confusing. :confused:

[Redneckn]

It's not cheating unless you get caught. Then, its a forfeit, and everybody hates you. for about a week.

Otherwise, a win is a win.

[mad_fan]

not a win?


Come to find out, "wins" shouldn't be counted as wins, when they are;

a.) "Stolen"

or

b.) Not in 5A!

:eek:

oh, now i see (before i was confused and thought this was stupid)...

a1) Stolen games count unless the UIL notifies you otherwise.

a2) Stolen 5A games still count when comparing their W-L record to other 5A schools, unless a1 above applys.

b1) 4A, 3A...6-man games count.

b2) 4A, 3A...6-man games count when you are comparing them to 4A, 3A...6-man records of other schools. (ie it would be silly and pointless to compare Christoval High to, well, let's say SLC. Same will be true 25 years from now when Christoval is 5A and SLC is...).

[CCBoy]

I don't think anybody cheated - except say Dallas Carter maybe - for examples sake. A win is a win.
Don't beg for our '88 Championship. Championships are earned on the field not given to someone because someone said it in an office. A win is a win for everybody. Don't hate on Carter '88. :rolleyes:

[Gooseisland10]

Random thread...? Please explain before posting this.

[Texasfrog]

It's not cheating unless you get caught. Then, its a forfeit, and everybody hates you. for about a week.

Otherwise, a win is a win.

No No No... "It's not cheating if you get caught.... and if you get caught you didnt try hard enough."

That's what I heard ... I dont ever do that. :D

[Redneckn]

No No No... "It's not cheating if you get caught.... and if you get caught you didnt try hard enough."

That's what I heard ... I dont ever do that. :D


I stand corrected. Sorry. I dont know what I was thinking. :D

[NMHS fan]

Depends on the program. Many here would be beyond delighted to get back into the playoff field. An example might be, say, North Mesquite - a quality program that has been outside looking in since '02 I believe. So, a North Mesquite gets on a roll and wins - they probably aren't concerned "how" the wins look - as long as it's a win.



LOL, you got that right at this point! Just win, baby right now... :) However, over whomever...

[dragons08]

hmm let me ponder...a win is not a win, when its a loss or a tie, easiest way i could put it :D

[Slim-Rob]

A win is a win UNLESS you don't follow the rules. Wins can be of different quality, like Judson beating Nixon. It's a win, but its not a high quality win. But its still a win. If a team doesn't follow the rules, they don't deserve the win.

[implacable44]

hey CC boy - we dont want your trophy down in Converse - feel free to pick it up whenever you want. nobody that was there in 88-91 wanted that trophy - not even D.W.

[CoppellCowboy57]

Oh man, im confused...so confused...so your saying a wins a loss, if you lose, but a wins a win if you win, times 3x + 4b = a peace of pi

[CCBoy]

hey CC boy - we dont want your trophy down in Converse - feel free to pick it up whenever you want. nobody that was there in 88-91 wanted that trophy - not even D.W.
We have a trophy already so you guys can keep that one yall have, and I was aware that nobody from Judson wanted it back then and most of the guys back then knew UIL allowed us to play because it was so controversial what had happened and everything was handled correctly. Don't look like you want to accept it though. That incident happened earlier in the season and if it was such a foul they would have stopped us from playing all the games we played and granting us a playoff birth. We have what means more to us and that is the memories and the actual field win. If you think a trophy makes someone a winner....you're wrong buddy. A win is a win. :cool:

[implacable44]

Dude - I just told you nobody wanted your trophy - NOBODY - I don't think the mayor even wanted that trophy - Truth be told - I don't even know if it is on display - I remember there being a lot of controversy about that and if you read my posts ccboy - you would see I say that '88 team might be the best 5a team ever in texas. All I heard over the intercom that day was " armstead on the tackle" armstead on the stop ,etc....

so that trophy to 99% of Judson means squat. I guess I should go an edit all my posts to 5 5a state championships instead of 6.

[dragonsdaddy]

We have a trophy already so you guys can keep that one yall have, and I was aware that nobody from Judson wanted it back then and most of the guys back then knew UIL allowed us to play because it was so controversial what had happened and everything was handled correctly. Don't look like you want to accept it though. That incident happened earlier in the season and if it was such a foul they would have stopped us from playing all the games we played and granting us a playoff birth. We have what means more to us and that is the memories and the actual field win. If you think a trophy makes someone a winner....you're wrong buddy. A win is a win. :cool:is that what the high powered lawyers who rooked the system for 4 weeks kept telling the cowboys? "hey, we keep winning in the court room so you guys get to keep playing. we'll keep jobbing the system to the best of our ability."

[Redneckn]

My not being a Texas, I dont know the story around what y'all are talking about, but it seems interesting. Web links about it or anything I can go an read?

[CCBoy]

Dude - I just told you nobody wanted your trophy - NOBODY - I don't think the mayor even wanted that trophy - Truth be told - I don't even know if it is on display - I remember there being a lot of controversy about that and if you read my posts ccboy - you would see I say that '88 team might be the best 5a team ever in texas. All I heard over the intercom that day was " armstead on the tackle" armstead on the stop ,etc....

so that trophy to 99% of Judson means squat. I guess I should go an edit all my posts to 5 5a state championships instead of 6.
My thing with you wasn't about how you felt about them being the best team ever. My thing with you is you won't allow a win to be a win in keeping on topic of this thread we are on.
Below is what my discussion with you was about. Not whether you thought that they were the best team ever. (that's another thread)
You said,
"I don't think anybody cheated - except say Dallas Carter maybe - for examples sake. A win is a win."
And for Dragondaddy, you need to read or to know a little more about that topic before you try to give any of your sarcastic information.

[dragonsdaddy]

explain then why every week some judge was willing to overturn the ruling ptb (uil) to force the team to be allowed to play on. did that not happen? it was in every paper and on every news cast. maybe they were making it up, just picking on the innocent carter guys. it was a travesty at best, and crooked as heck at worst.

[implacable44]

Are you saying that there was no wrongdoing - -no error - no mistake made by Dallas Carter or any of the players from the 88 squad? You really believe that they didn't do anything wrong ? I mean was the "Man" just out to get you or something ? - can we do a "where are they now" and see where those kids have ended up today ?

[CCBoy]

explain then why every week some judge was willing to overturn the ruling ptb (uil) to force the team to be allowed to play on. did that not happen? it was in every paper and on every news cast. maybe they were making it up, just picking on the innocent carter guys. it was a travesty at best, and crooked as heck at worst.
Dragondad, I will not debate with ignorance. It's not an insulting word just look it up and you'll feel better. I promise ya. :)
Implacable, I can tell what type of person you are just by your remarks,"I mean was the "Man" just out to get you or something ?" Enough said, but I'm not getting into that.
Holla guys, I don't want to waste time on ignorance. I have a great respect for both of you guy's football programs still. Good luck in the season!!

[implacable44]

Sleep well CCboy - sleep well.

[dragonsdaddy]

Dragondad, I will not debate with ignorance. It's not an insulting word just look it up and you'll feel better. I promise ya. :)
Implacable, I can tell what type of person you are just by your remarks,"I mean was the "Man" just out to get you or something ?" Enough said, but I'm not getting into that.
Holla guys, I don't want to waste time on ignorance. I have a great respect for both of you guy's football programs still. Good luck in the season!!
so there weren't weekly lawyers and judges interventions threatening lawsuits and such concerning the cowboys? i remember hearing about them, but i guess it could have bben from a different incident. someone will retrieve the real info soon, i presume.

[ktCarl]

At least the Carter kids were allowed to play the game to determine on the field who was the best that year. Katy didn't get that chance in '98.

On what thread can I go to find out why the Cater team was disqualified?

[dragonsdaddy]

for all who are interested in the story, and not the fable as portrayed by ccboy, enjoy this link to inside hs football. it was in fact as i remembered, not as he imagined.

http://www.insidehighschoolfootball.com/carter.htm

[CCBoy]

for all who are interested in the story, and not the fable as portrayed by ccboy, enjoy this link to inside hs football. it was in fact as i remembered, not as he imagined.

http://www.insidehighschoolfootball.com/carter.htm
Dragonpappy, I was actually in the teachers class where it all started. Don't get it twisted spectator. I saw that video a long time ago and it is very correct. (First Person) Unlike your newspaper articles from 88.

[svrangerfan]

Cheating aside a 5a school trying to make its way back like JT beating a 4a state champ like Kilgore (I am not sure if they did or not) IS a quality win.

[mad_fan]

even when it aint pretty...

on SA Madison victory over O'Connor...

"It was ugly," Mavericks coach Jim Streety said, "but we like it."

[dragonsdaddy]

Dragonpappy, I was actually in the teachers class where it all started. Don't get it twisted spectator. I saw that video a long time ago and it is very correct. (First Person) Unlike your newspaper articles from 88.
other than trying to change the subject with your cute dialog, when will you ever refute anything i stated? you woin't because you can't. the truth is the truth, even if you don't like it.

[CCBoy]

other than trying to change the subject with your cute dialog, when will you ever refute anything i stated? you woin't because you can't. the truth is the truth, even if you don't like it.
Yes sir, You have the whole scoop and I know nothing. You win by forfeit and a win is a win.

[dragonsdaddy]

refute, refute, refute. if you can prove that lawyers weren't as big if not a bigger part of the cowboys run thru the po's, please do. we outside the loop were privy to what the reporters and papers gave us. the article simply reinforced what i remembered. you are acting like none of it happened. i'd like to hear about how they didn't get several last second judges opinions that kept them one step ahead of the uil, and their pesky rules.

[drgnbkr]

I remember it very well..it was an embarrasment for Carter and HS Football in general....thank goodness they got it right in the end.....it just took far too long...

[BandidoNB]

Don't beg for our '88 Championship. Championships are earned on the field not given to someone because someone said it in an office. A win is a win for everybody. Don't hate on Carter '88. :rolleyes:

Personally I wouldnt consider Carter 88 state champions. Think about it. If every school in 1988 was hypothetically given the chance to have JUST ONE ineligible player play on their squad (including Judson), then there's no telling how the playoffs would have ended up that year.

[CCBoy]

Personally I wouldnt consider Carter 88 state champions. Think about it. If every school in 1988 was hypothetically given the chance to have JUST ONE ineligible player play on their squad (including Judson), then there's no telling how the playoffs would have ended up that year.
Okay... :rolleyes:

[CCBoy]

refute, refute, refute. if you can prove that lawyers weren't as big if not a bigger part of the cowboys run thru the po's, please do. we outside the loop were privy to what the reporters and papers gave us. the article simply reinforced what i remembered. you are acting like none of it happened. i'd like to hear about how they didn't get several last second judges opinions that kept them one step ahead of the uil, and their pesky rules.
I guess all accusations should be assumed true. What if for some reason someone accused some of your players for using steroids? Do you need a good lawyer or will you just get off free. (Just for instance that is...) hypothetically speaking. Forfeit a championship? No, because you won it right?

[drgnbkr]

I guess all accusations should be assumed true. What if for some reason someone accused some of your players for using steroids? Do you need a good lawyer or will you just get off free. (Just for instance that is...) hypothetically speaking. Forfeit a championship? No, because you won it right?
No, as aopposed to the 88 Carter deal, there was nothing to the rumors regarding Carroll....

[CCBoy]

No, as aopposed to the 88 Carter deal, there was nothing to the rumors regarding Carroll....
That was just a "for instance scenario" for dragonpappy. It was a long while ago and if you don't know the full details of the story then think what you want pappy because crap come from all directions when you're a champ. Let's wash your own windows before you try to tell someone that their sheets hanging on the line are dirty. :confused:

We're back on topic now. "When is a win a win?"

[dragonsdaddy]

for some one to explain the whole deal as being a long time ago and let's leave it at that reeks of rewriting history. if you in fact have "the facts" let's hear them. those of us outside the box are having to assume you are a blowhard as you have done nothing to dispel it. it's a shame for you that everything i remembered was so well documented as to make your weak efforts at misinformation sound so hollow.

[CCBoy]

for some one to explain the whole deal as being a long time ago and let's leave it at that reeks of rewriting history. if you in fact have "the facts" let's hear them. those of us outside the box are having to assume you are a blowhard as you have done nothing to dispel it. it's a shame for you that everything i remembered was so well documented as to make your weak efforts at misinformation sound so hollow.
You won't listen and you believe what you want to believe. I am not going to try to explain to a rock.

[dragonsdaddy]

went back thru every post of yours on this thread, and there is nothing that refutes anything i have claimed. nothing. you go back thru and highlight it.other than claiming you were there, what else can you offer. lawyers and judges worked the system in carter's favor. the rest of us watched and were variously effected by their actions.

[stevefoxsc]

is dallas carter cheating again?

[mad_fan]

is dallas carter cheating again?


Now that, Steve, I understood! :D Perfect timing. :D

[CCBoy]

went back thru every post of yours on this thread, and there is nothing that refutes anything i have claimed. nothing. you go back thru and highlight it.other than claiming you were there, what else can you offer. lawyers and judges worked the system in carter's favor. the rest of us watched and were variously effected by their actions.
Quit Crying. :(

[CCBoy]

Now that, Steve, I understood! :D Perfect timing. :D
If cheating is called winning and having a pretty good squad...Then yeah.

[implacable44]

Look I dont want to be a crybaby or anything but if you have information why don't you share it ? You have been asked to state your case and refute the findings in a court of law but you ignore those requests and expect people to take " I was there" and " you don't know" or " you will believe what you want to believe" -well give me a chance to believe you- what happened? what is everyone missing that you know ? Why didn't you share this information in 88 when Carter was fighting to keep playing ?

[SLCDad]

I'm confused. CCboy has not presented any evidence or any facts whatsoever despite everyone asking for information. Then he accuses everyone else of believing what they want to believe or crying.

CCBoy you've made charges, so why don't you back them up? If you don't have specific evidence why don't you just state the reasons why you think Carter was treated unfairly.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[SLCDad]

Quit Crying. :(Honestly, I don't see anyone crying here. Just asking you to provide any information whatsoever.

[mad_fan]

If cheating is called winning and having a pretty good squad...Then yeah.


Easy, there, killer. Go back, read. I think he just came in on the middle of the conversation. I thought it was pretty funny.

[dragonsdaddy]

ccboy seems to be following the age old, at least since clinton started it, of saying something often and loud enough , and thus assuming everyone will think it must be true.

[Redneckn]

Dallas Carter didnt cheat.. You people are crazy.
The folks in the Carter area have told me several times (rather loudly I might add) that they didnt cheat. So they couldnt have. Geez!!!

[SLCDad]

Dallas Carter didnt cheat.. You people are crazy.
The folks in the Carter area have told me several times (rather loudly I might add) that they didnt cheat. So they couldnt have. Geez!!! "Don't you know, everyone in here is innocent." Morgan Freeman to Tim Robbins in Shawshank Redemption.

[CCBoy]

"Don't you know, everyone in here is innocent." Morgan Freeman to Tim Robbins in Shawshank Redemption.
No one took steroids either! Geez, what's with these guys putting these things out. :D
Big Mike

[dragonsdaddy]

another political ploy is to redirect damning proof away from self by throwing completely baseless and inane innuendo out as chaff, much like a fighter tries to fool a heat seeking missile.

[CCBoy]

another political ploy is to redirect damning proof away from self by throwing completely baseless and inane innuendo out as chaff, much like a fighter tries to fool a heat seeking missile.
Okay.....Yes sir

[dragonsdaddy]

14 posts into this farce of an debate whether carter was legislated into the playoffs and eventually the state championship, and ccb hasn't yet approached anything conclusive or even argumentative. guess he wins.

[implacable44]

what is an debate? is that new english ?

[CCBoy]

14 posts into this farce of an debate whether carter was legislated into the playoffs and eventually the state championship, and ccb hasn't yet approached anything conclusive or even argumentative. guess he wins.


AU professor Marvin Edwards played role in 'Friday Night Lights' — the book, not the movie
By Matt Danahey, staff writer
The Aurora Beacon News
Aurora, Illinois, USA
Originally published: Thursday, September 30, 2004
Printed with permission of The Aurora Beacon News
AURORA — Aurora University professor Marvin Edwards plays a small role in Friday Night Lights — the book, not the movie.
Edwards, who now works with doctoral candidates in AU's educational leadership program, was working in the Dallas Independent School District as superintendent back in 1988, the year in which most of the book's events take place.
The team at the center of Friday Night Lights, the Permian Panthers of Odessa, played Dallas Carter High School that year in the Class 5A semifinals. Carter beat Permian and went on to win the state 5A championship.
The book by H.G. "Buzz" Bissinger covers a part of the Carter Cowboys road to the title, too, including a controversy surrounding the math grade of one of its star players, Gary Edwards (no relation to Marvin).
Texas being the football-frenzied state it is, the matter became a media event. According to the book, adding to the contentiousness was that Carter is a predominantly black high school and some white suburban schools were behind some challenges to what happened.
According to Bissinger's account, Carter had in place a School Improvement Plan with a grading system that included credit given for showing up and "participating" as well as homework. The lowest a student could get for turning in an assignment was a 50, with 70 considered a passing grade.
Texas implemented a "pass to play" program for high school athletes, with grades monitored at the end of every six weeks of study. Edwards, a senior, was having big trouble in teacher Will Bates' Algebra II class. So much so that, with the six-week mark approaching, principal C.C. Russeau approved a transfer for Edwards into another algebra class, one not taught by Bates, according to Bissinger's account.
Someone anonymously let state investigators know Edwards was not passing Bates' algebra class, that the grade reported to them needed to be recalculated to reflect the truth that he wasn't passing.
Marvin Edwards was new to Dallas, coming there from Topeka, Kansas, to take the job as superintendent. Edwards ruled on the evidence presented and said Gary Edwards was not eligible to play and that Carter would have to forfeit three wins and exit the playoffs.
Contacted for this story, Marvin Edwards said such rulings on grades were typically made by the principal. But the day Texas Education Agency investigators came calling, Russeau was not in town and could not be located.
According to Marvin Edwards, upon his return the very next day, Russeau added up the scores from Bate's grade book and came to a passing average. He decided Gary Edwards had been given a Zero on a homework assignment that had, in fact, been turned in, and a grade of 50 for that brought up his average to 70.4.
This reversed Edwards' ruling, the change coming because the information changed, Marvin Edwards recalled.
"In later weeks, as the controversy raged, Marvin Edwards defended his decision by saying it had nothing to do with football. At issue, he said, was local control and the right of a school system to determine in good faith the grade of a student without interference from anyone else," wrote Bissinger.
"But many felt that Edwards had been unprepared for the outrage that greeted his initial decision to keep the Carter Cowboys out of the playoffs. The motivation for him to change his mind, they felt, was a desire to appease a constituency whipped into a frenzy over high school football. The issue wasn't local control. The issue was a state championship, which hadn't been won by a Dallas school in 38 years," Bissinger concluded.
But Marvin Edwards said "there was no pressure" on him to change the grade. He noted, too, that Bissinger never contacted him about this incident for his side of the story.
Further rulings from those higher up in the school and legal systems allowed Carter to continue its march to the title.
Will Bates was drummed out of Carter, according to Bissinger, and reassigned to a middle school, where he taught industrial arts but was forbidden to teach math. Edwards said, though, that the demotion came about because Bates violated the School Improvement Plan by giving Gary Edwards the zero, which should have been a 50.
Gary Edwards' story took another strange twist later that school year. Though middle class and, by the book's account, not wanting for material things, Edwards and Derric Evans, both of whom had college scholarship offers, and three other Carter Cowboys wound up going on a robbery spree in the spring of 1989, apparently just for thrills.
According to Bissinger, they were caught, and the judge sentenced Edwards to 16 years in prison, Evans to 20 years. Marvin Edwards thought Gary Edwards was sentenced to six years and was released after serving three-and-a-half years.
"I was down in Dallas for five years, and he was out before I left," said Edwards, who claimed he didn't hear of Bissinger's book until more than a year after its 1990 release.
(A column by St. Petersburg newspaper writer Gary Shelton for the 2001 Super Bowl noted that the sentence was 16 years, and Edwards served less than four years. Shelton's piece stated that 12 students were arrested and charged with 21 robberies. A Carter player who turned down a request to take part in the crimes was Jessie Armstead, who went on to become an All Pro linebacker for the New York Giants. He is now playing for the Carolina Panthers.)
What Marvin Edwards also remembered about his time in Texas was that it is, indeed, a state where there is a religious-type fervor for the sport and "football is king," particularly in the small towns. The mood during football season is similar to March Madness for basketball in Illinois, Edwards said.
"In so many small towns, on a Friday night just about everybody goes to the games," recalled Edwards. That fervor spilled over to Dallas in 1988, as "it was all the talk in the whole city when Carter made the playoffs."
Of course, Dallas is home to the NFL's Dallas Cowboys, and Edwards was there for all the tumult when Jerry Jones named Jimmy Johnson head coach, replacing living legend Tom Landry. Johnson won over fans by bringing "America's Team" back to the Super Bowl.
Edwards said that there was pressure on the schools to shut down so that students could attend a parade held in the team's honor.
Attitudes toward high school sports in Texas and elsewhere have hardly mellowed in the 16 years since Bissinger's book, Edwards agreed.
"Sports are extremely overemphasized at the high school level," said Edwards.


This is what anybody that knew anything about the story remembers. No one will fight for nothing. Remember that :cool:

[dragonsdaddy]

that wasn't so hard. nice touch with the final claim, too. why, pray tell did that not come up on day one of this discussion?

[Lakelover]

Hey, if we aren't counting 4A wins, does that mean Galveston Ball can also not count it's loss to 4A Lamarque?