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lonny23
04-26-2005, 08:58 PM
Ever so often, we discuss how money can help make your football team and overall sports programs better. There's no doubt that sports like tennis and golf will always be dominated by richer school districts because the athletes can pay for training to get better.

In football, we've talked about clinics and offseason training helping the players and there isn't an argument that richer districts can pay more for coaches. Having better equipment never hurts, but I've always thought that was the least beneficial result of money. More money helps with scouting other teams and stuff like breaking down game tapes, etc.

Maybe the best benefit of all that comes out of rich schools has never been mentioned on this board. We have a glass ceiling in the U.S. that says men make more money than women. Divorce is the leading cause of poverty in the U.S. and it takes minimum intelligence to not realize single parents have a lot harder time making enough money to raise a family than mothers and fathers together.

By and large what you see in the richer districts and richer parts of town are complete families. These families aren't without problems, but you do have more stable lives, less turmoil and problems, and 2 parents that can play their individual roles in their kids lives. You get the nurturing, the teaching, and the discipline. When you add it all up, you get better schools and sports programs.

RGVBadBoy
04-26-2005, 09:08 PM
If my school, Sharyland HS in Mission had more money at their disposal, we could build a bigger better weightroom filled with the best of teh best equipment, not that old school rusted stuff, we could also hire a real strength and conditioning coach, instead of just designating one of the assistants to do it, you know, someone who really knows what he or she is doing, we would also be able ot afford those parachutes that athletes use during offseason for speed training, Sharyland doesnt have those, another thing i would do would be help form a package rate to send some of the kids to real football camps, like those held at UT and TAMU, money is a truelly wonderful thing, it would be great if we had some more down in the RGV.....

ktchamp97
04-26-2005, 10:58 PM
Excellent post Lonny.

One great thing about football is that it is the ultimate team sport, so the socio-economic differences don't have as much of an effect as they do in other sports. Obviously, it always helps to have more resources, but at the same time it doesn't guarantee any results on the gridiron either.

I agree about the equipment being a relative non-factor. You don't have to have top of the line weights, etc. to get better. A 25lb plate is 25lbs no matter how nice it is or isn't. Now, if we're talking about not having enough equipment, that's a different story altogether.

Being able to send a large amount of guys to camps and such is a definite advantage and so is the ability to pay for better coaching. Being able to afford the nicer video equipment certainly has its tactical advantages as well.

All of those things, however, can be attained through great community support. Great community support is the foundation for all great football programs. It would, therefore, make sense that it's easier to have such suppport in wealthier, more stable areas.

However, this doesn't always work, because there are plenty of wealthy areas with poor support for their teams...it's just that the opportunity is more readily available than it might be in other areas. Some well-off areas just aren't into football though and the team suffers from poor support. On the other hand, there are less-privileged areas who support their kids and their teams tremendously. I think it's just a matter of gathering that groundswell of support...be that in a wealthy area or a less-fortunate area. If enough people in the community get involved, they can raise money for the things they deem important. It's just a matter of where the community decides to prioritize. In some places though, it just doesn't make sense to put so much effort into raising money for athletics; the money is often needed for more essential causes.

Aside from all of that, there are teams who don't belong to a geograhical area such as the HISD schools, for example. The kids come from all over the place so it's harder to organize the community to get behind the team. Often there isn't really a community to begin with, so it's easy to see why those teams get so little support both financially and in the stands. Those types of schools are at a severe disadvantage athletically, because they don't have much of a foundation to build on.

There are many factors involved and it's not as clear as we may think initially. Money most certainly doesn't hurt, but it doesn't buy wins on the field...they are, and always will be, earned.

LPMOM
04-27-2005, 12:03 AM
good post ktchamp97. lufkin is a good example of some of the things you mentioned. not much money but a great support system. having only one jr. high and one high school helps too. those boys in lufkin grow up playing with each other.

Thor
04-28-2005, 12:29 PM
I agree ktchamps 97
I grew up in an area in NW Houston which was a very good area as far as economic. But the HS football team I played for had little support. My son goes to a school in Arlington Texas were its the same economic situation but the community supports the HS. Matter of fact even people without kids in the school support the programs. We cant expect the school districts to fund the weights and extra training. Its up to the Booter Clubs/parents and communities. Fundraisers are the key to a great program

Mr. Buddy Garrity
04-28-2005, 12:32 PM
good post ktchamp97. lufkin is a good example of some of the things you mentioned. not much money but a great support system. having only one jr. high and one high school helps too. those boys in lufkin grow up playing with each other.
Yeah that's what P.A. is trying to do but the employees (some of them) wanna dip their hands in the pot sorta speak.

CoppellCowboy57
04-28-2005, 01:30 PM
Prime Example...The Green Ppl of Southlake. They have alot of money (somtimes the clame the dont but trust me ive drivin through southlake, and for the most part they are pretty well of area). They have an amazing sports program.

Coppell is better off then other citys, and year after year we make the play-offs if in diffrent sports.

As I said in another post, Texas High School football comes down to heart.

Thor
04-28-2005, 01:44 PM
Prime Example...The Green Ppl of Southlake. They have alot of money (somtimes the clame the dont but trust me ive drivin through southlake, and for the most part they are pretty well of area). They have an amazing sports program.

Coppell is better off then other citys, and year after year we make the play-offs if in diffrent sports.

As I said in another post, Texas High School football comes down to heart.
South Lake hasnt always been a wealthy area . But within the last 10 years the area has began to develope. But SLC has always had a very good program wether 3A or 5A. Its just that the community has always supported the teams.

CoppellCowboy57
04-28-2005, 01:47 PM
South Lake hasnt always been a wealthy area . But within the last 10 years the area has began to develope. But SLC has always had a very good program wether 3A or 5A. Its just that the community has always supported the teams.

Southlake has grown over the past 15 years, but its always been a wealthy above avg area in wealth

Thor
04-28-2005, 01:50 PM
Southlake has grown over the past 15 years, but its always been a wealthy above avg area in wealth

If I remember correctly they also pay $100.00 per athelete to praticapate. Or is that another school. WOW an instant donation . I may be wrong , I think someone told me it was SLC

pack0808
04-28-2005, 02:30 PM
good post ktchamp97. lufkin is a good example of some of the things you mentioned. not much money but a great support system. having only one jr. high and one high school helps too. those boys in lufkin grow up playing with each other.




lufkin has plenty of money when it comes to sports. they were just ranked the #1 alumni in the nation a few years back. no lufkin is not a rich city like slc but when it comes to sports they have not done without in my opinion.

NewSherriffInTown
04-28-2005, 02:52 PM
I don't know if money necessarily means your athletic programs will do well, I think it's the communities commitment to the programs that will make it flourish. There are areas with money who don't put money into athletics, and there are areas without money who put tons of money into athletics.

Firebird
04-28-2005, 03:03 PM
Regarding Money v. Community Support:

It is a give and take thing. It is best to have both of them. It would be intersting to do a study on how it actually breaks down-- what relationship per capita family income has to the success of a schools football team.

I agree with Lonny's post 100%.

CCDawgs05
04-28-2005, 07:56 PM
Money has helped our program develop dramatically....it brought us a new annex with a big and nice weight room, nice locker rooms, and nice offices for coaches....comes along with the fields for practicing.....we bought new jerseys for the upcoming season(dont know why) so we have hand me downs all the way to the freshman teams....we got a nice stadium with the up to date technology.....but money can develop a winning attitude in the program as it has done for us.....

stevefoxsc
04-29-2005, 01:01 AM
money can do alot but not everything if i am correct every individual player makes the difference not the ones that had money to recieve that extra training. though you do need money for the training cause coaches don't work for free i wana say 50 50

LPMOM
04-29-2005, 01:33 AM
lufkin has plenty of money when it comes to sports. they were just ranked the #1 alumni in the nation a few years back. no lufkin is not a rich city like slc but when it comes to sports they have not done without in my opinion.


thats true but i was referring to the average income of the families of the players.

ktCarl
04-29-2005, 08:28 AM
All of ya'll just send your xtra money to www.benicetoktcarl.com

chhspantherfan
12-21-2011, 08:46 AM
bump

rodjohns
12-21-2011, 08:49 AM
good post ktchamp97. lufkin is a good example of some of the things you mentioned. not much money but a great support system. having only one jr. high and one high school helps too. those boys in lufkin grow up playing with each other.

Enough money to buy a freaking indoor facility….:eek:

http://www.goodwinlasiter.com/gallery_eng/images/engineering_gallery/Site_Development/Lufkin_High_School_Athletic_Facilities_2006_500x37 5.jpg

http://www.lufkinpanthersports.com/Gallery/Abe%20Martin/facility-interior.jpg

trojanbacker
12-21-2011, 09:19 AM
43% of students at Trinity are classified as economically disadvantaged. We need more money to help with our recruiting efforts.

chhspantherfan
12-21-2011, 09:30 AM
43% of students at Trinity are classified as economically disadvantaged. We need more money to help with our recruiting efforts.

ask the 57% for help!

trojanbacker
12-21-2011, 10:19 AM
ask the 57% for help!

Good idea. We are going to add a Northeast Tarrant County Recruiter to find us a player who is 6'4 or so and can sling the ball around.

mojotrain
12-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Ahhh yes, Although it was 1985, I remember it as though it was yesterday. The richy rich kids of Houston Jack Yates beating the pewaddlin out of those Firebird, Z-28, Corvette driving, oil poor kids of Permian High School. Now today we have at Permian a....O well, never mind.....
Nope I'll say my piece. A good coach with teachable kids will win with a weight room filled with cement filled Bear Rabbit syrup buckets and peg boards nailed to the walls. Put poor coachs in a Jerry World with their facilities and you still wind up with the cowboys.


gimmy, gimmy, gimmy!!!:mad: If anyone or their dad needs a job:eek: and money:eek: and can pass a drug test:eek: move to the PERMIAN basin.

BDB
12-21-2011, 10:54 AM
If my school, Sharyland HS in Mission had more money at their disposal, we could build a bigger better weightroom filled with the best of teh best equipment, not that old school rusted stuff, we could also hire a real strength and conditioning coach, instead of just designating one of the assistants to do it, you know, someone who really knows what he or she is doing, we would also be able ot afford those parachutes that athletes use during offseason for speed training, Sharyland doesnt have those, another thing i would do would be help form a package rate to send some of the kids to real football camps, like those held at UT and TAMU, money is a truelly wonderful thing, it would be great if we had some more down in the RGV.....

that's one of, if not, the wealthiest areas in the valley.... this is one of the reasons the valley doesn't keep pace with the rest of the state.

mojodragon
12-21-2011, 11:31 AM
Money is only important to the point that you have enough in the program to function at 100%, having more does not win games. There are plenty of programs in Texas that have "enough" money. What seems to be the biggest factors are community support, school administration support, parent support and having strong feeder system in place for upcoming students. Tradition does play a lot more than people give credit, I do believe that if you are in a tradition rich program the kids work a little harder, stay a little longer, etc. The pressure to uphold the tradition gets kids on the field and in the gym during the offseason more. In our North Texas area the difference in money between Southlake, Colleyville, Coppell, NorthWest, Keller, etc. is not that much, all these programs have plenty of money and great programs. The kids all live in the same social enviroment, play on the same pee wee and little league teams, go to the same shopping areas, same movie theatres, same churches, etc, so why does one program win more than the others? That is the big money question !!

v2the4
12-21-2011, 11:38 AM
I think the "money" everyone is talking about goes a long way in more independent sports like golf, swimming/diving, gymnastics, wrestling and tennis, and more specialized training in sports like volleyball, baseball and softball.

Considering that you can really play or get individual training at specialized facilities year round, its no wonder we continue to see more affluent areas like Kingwood, the Woodlands, Clements in FtBend ISD, Southlake Carroll, Highland Park, Austin Westlake, and Lake Travis among others at the top of the area charts in those sports.

sometimes, economic clout doesnt come into play on the football field...Clements and Kingwood are major players in cross country, swimming and diving, volleyball, baseball and softball, but they are both awful in football...Kingwood is running the option...go figure?

If Im not mistaken, the major newspapers will have the all district, area and all state listings in this sundays newspapers, along with the top 100 for football recruiting, and just count the number of athletes from the above mentioned schools in the sports above.

I think coaching plays a major factor in the success of team sports, along with some athletic talent. We have seen hundreds of teams over the years with double digit D1 talent year in and year out, but with mickey mouse coaching staffs...case in point in the Houston area are Fort Bend Marshall, Aldine Eisenhower, and a good majority of the inner city schools.

You have to wonder if you take a good/great coaching staff out of an area powerhouse and swapped them with an area also ran, would the results be the same on the field?

In addition to the economic factor that goes into building a football powerhouse, you have to have great community support, great patience and you have to be able to stomach some tough issues. Thats part of the issue at schools that were once successful like Odessa Permian, Midland Lee, and Plano....they expect deep runs year after year, but they are coming up empty, and in return, continue to change out coaching staffs every three or four years.....

DrEdward
12-21-2011, 11:52 AM
If I remember correctly they also pay $100.00 per athelete to praticapate. Or is that another school. WOW an instant donation . I may be wrong , I think someone told me it was SLC

The school board eliminated the pay-to-play fee two years ago I think. It was put in in place around 2002, as I recall, maybe a bit later, when the district was really being hit by Robin Hood, as such funds are not subject to recapture by the state and the then school board was a bit out of control. But the revenues generated went to the general fund of the district, not the football program. With the hit being taken by CISD courtesy of TEA and the legislature, it would not at all surprise me to see such a fee put back in teffect this coming year on all extracurricular activities, not just athletics.

Tom
12-21-2011, 12:52 PM
Those rich kids from Dekaney and Skyline were awesome this year!

I agree to a point. There are successful programs in affluent areas (SLC, Allen, Highland Park in 4A.) There are also mediocre programs in affluent areas, like Flower Mound, Keller, and Plano West. And there are successful programs in not-so-affluent areas: Trinity, Skyline, Cedar Hill.

I think affluence helps but a lot of other factors come into play.

Maxthedog
12-21-2011, 02:16 PM
Southlake has grown over the past 15 years, but its always been a wealthy above avg area in wealth

The use of 'always' is Incorrect CC57! During the 80's, it was a lot of middle class, hardworking people doing the field prep, selling sodas, shuttling kids around and in general it was parents doing everything. We didn't have the budget to move the band to some games etc. We had more bake sales than Mrs Bairds bread. Don't underestimate the impact of Robahood on schools like Coppel, SLC, HP and the likes. We still raise HAVE to raise money the old fashioned way. It ain't all wine and roses that is being painted with threads like this.

DragonFan0316
12-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Money can do everything but buy you love, right? Money can help for sure. But just because you have money it doesn't mean someone just gave it to you. I know a lot of people in Southlake including me that fought and earned every nickel. No one needs to apologize for this.

twcpfan1
12-21-2011, 02:34 PM
I think it was a nice touch to put the 'The' in front of The Woodlands.

rattler
12-21-2011, 02:44 PM
Money plays a factor is extra training, camps, equipment, support, etc... Kids not having to work, kids having home gyms, or gym memberships, etc...

Programs like The Woodlands in Houston, Reagan in San Antonio, Westlake and Lake Travis in Austin, and SLC and Highland Park in DFW are successful year in and year out for a reason.

I'm just pissed that we at Reagan have to share our tax dollars with the rest of our district. Money is a factor, and that's not a bad thing. Parents work hard to be successful and to provide their children with these types of 'extra' advantages in life. I worked my *** off so that my kid could go to a great school and have more scouts checking him out. That's just the way it is...

maxtor
12-21-2011, 03:49 PM
You people are implying that this "extra money" and financial inequality deal is a BAD thing. No, its a good thing. The only way to make things equal is to reconcile everything to mediocrity and put a glass ceiling on everyone.
This is America. The place where good decisions, work, staying out of trouble, volunteerism, honesty and character sets you apart and are rewarded as such and by extension your children benefit as well.
BTW. Bond elections are typically what pays for facilities. Southlake doesnt have any more teachers per student than Skyline and the expenditure per student is almost the same.
I'm not saying there isn't a difference but the subject is a bit different than people give credit for.

Trojanalum693
12-22-2011, 01:35 PM
43% of students at Trinity are classified as economically disadvantaged. We need more money to help with our recruiting efforts.


Wow that number is up from when I graduated in 2009. I think it was still under 40%.

Super B
12-22-2011, 03:51 PM
Good idea. We are going to add a Northeast Tarrant County Recruiter to find us a player who is 6'4 or so and can sling the ball around.
Preferably one that has a year of Varsity experience and is very close by. It would help if he has played in our stadium before. At least twice.

dragonsdaddy
12-22-2011, 04:06 PM
I think the "money" everyone is talking about goes a long way in more independent sports like golf, swimming/diving, gymnastics, wrestling and tennis, and more specialized training in sports like volleyball, baseball and softball.

Considering that you can really play or get individual training at specialized facilities year round, its no wonder we continue to see more affluent areas like Kingwood, the Woodlands, Clements in FtBend ISD, Southlake Carroll, Highland Park, Austin Westlake, and Lake Travis among others at the top of the area charts in those sports.

sometimes, economic clout doesnt come into play on the football field...Clements and Kingwood are major players in cross country, swimming and diving, volleyball, baseball and softball, but they are both awful in football...Kingwood is running the option...go figure?

If Im not mistaken, the major newspapers will have the all district, area and all state listings in this sundays newspapers, along with the top 100 for football recruiting, and just count the number of athletes from the above mentioned schools in the sports above.

I think coaching plays a major factor in the success of team sports, along with some athletic talent. We have seen hundreds of teams over the years with double digit D1 talent year in and year out, but with mickey mouse coaching staffs...case in point in the Houston area are Fort Bend Marshall, Aldine Eisenhower, and a good majority of the inner city schools.

You have to wonder if you take a good/great coaching staff out of an area powerhouse and swapped them with an area also ran, would the results be the same on the field?

In addition to the economic factor that goes into building a football powerhouse, you have to have great community support, great patience and you have to be able to stomach some tough issues. Thats part of the issue at schools that were once successful like Odessa Permian, Midland Lee, and Plano....they expect deep runs year after year, but they are coming up empty, and in return, continue to change out coaching staffs every three or four years.....
plano has had a grand total of 4 head coaches since 1966. try again.

E-Vol-ution
12-22-2011, 04:34 PM
43% of students at Trinity are classified as economically disadvantaged. We need more money to help with our recruiting efforts.

Stay the hell away from Bowie.:D:notworthy

DragonFan0316
12-22-2011, 04:35 PM
Stay the hell away from Bowie.:D:notworthy

:rofl:

RRSP1
12-22-2011, 04:57 PM
I think Cross Country is an interesting example to consider. I can't think of a less expensive high school sport to operate, and there's absolutely nothing "country club" about it. Yet teams from The Woodlands and Southlake are consistently at the top. Then on the bigger stages, distance running is dominated by athletes who grew up running on dirt trails in Africa.

mojotrain
12-22-2011, 05:36 PM
plano has had a grand total of 4 head coaches since 1966. try again.

v2the4 it ain't exactly like we are running them off. Coach Mills may have been given a cold sholdered by the Permian fans but prior to him R Mayes was the only coach out of 6 head coachs since 1965 to leave under duress and he had the head coaching job for 5 or 6 years. The other five left for College jobs. Allman the last Coach to leave, left, but not because of the fans.

Permians notority or success is sometimes explained by half truths cultivated only by envy. Permian built it's reputation by having a parking lot filled with high dollar muscle cars and 4 wheel drive F-150s and very few minorties on the team. Sound familiar? That happens, with success as, by now SLC fans are finding out. If you do it and do it often enough, you cheated, plain and simple. In that, one has no need to explain his own teams deficiencies. In that you always have the multitudes on your side.

You are pretty much dead on with the rest of your post.

padcrasher
12-22-2011, 06:00 PM
Ever so often, we discuss how money can help make your football team and overall sports programs better. There's no doubt that sports like tennis and golf will always be dominated by richer school districts because the athletes can pay for training to get better.

In football, we've talked about clinics and offseason training helping the players and there isn't an argument that richer districts can pay more for coaches. Having better equipment never hurts, but I've always thought that was the least beneficial result of money. More money helps with scouting other teams and stuff like breaking down game tapes, etc.

Maybe the best benefit of all that comes out of rich schools has never been mentioned on this board. We have a glass ceiling in the U.S. that says men make more money than women. Divorce is the leading cause of poverty in the U.S. and it takes minimum intelligence to not realize single parents have a lot harder time making enough money to raise a family than mothers and fathers together.

By and large what you see in the richer districts and richer parts of town are complete families. These families aren't without problems, but you do have more stable lives, less turmoil and problems, and 2 parents that can play their individual roles in their kids lives. You get the nurturing, the teaching, and the discipline. When you add it all up, you get better schools and sports programs.

It's huge to be able to afford to have just one parent working. Just looking back on my kid's teams in Southlake, this has been the norm. It allows for so much more participation. Woody Allen said "80% of success is just showing up".

padcrasher
12-22-2011, 06:04 PM
43% of students at Trinity are classified as economically disadvantaged. We need more money to help with our recruiting efforts.

It's actually up to 50% now I believe.

E-Vol-ution
12-22-2011, 06:28 PM
Okay...being totally serious; lunch!
It bothers me deeply that so many kids qualify for free lunch and breakfast is left out. Most kids would never admit it.
How is a kid supposed to excell in academics and or play sports at a level averaged out statewide or nationally if he literally is hungry?

CjGarcia9
12-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Money plays a factor is extra training, camps, equipment, support, etc... Kids not having to work, kids having home gyms, or gym memberships, etc...

Programs like The Woodlands in Houston, Reagan in San Antonio, Westlake and Lake Travis in Austin, and SLC and Highland Park in DFW are successful year in and year out for a reason.

I'm just pissed that we at Reagan have to share our tax dollars with the rest of our district. Money is a factor, and that's not a bad thing. Parents work hard to be successful and to provide their children with these types of 'extra' advantages in life. I worked my *** off so that my kid could go to a great school and have more scouts checking him out. That's just the way it is...

I've been all around the Stone Oak area, I think you guys get by just fine sharing your tax dollars.

Tom
12-22-2011, 10:57 PM
Okay...being totally serious; lunch!
It bothers me deeply that so many kids qualify for free lunch and breakfast is left out. Most kids would never admit it.
How is a kid supposed to excell in academics and or play sports at a level averaged out statewide or nationally if he literally is hungry?

They'll be fine, that slice of pizza at lunch gives them their daily serving of vegetables.

prof1065
12-23-2011, 12:24 PM
I think it was a nice touch to put the 'The' in front of The Woodlands.

A really good point I read earlier about how the money impacts kids more in regards to them not having to work all summer, having gym memberships paid, personal trainers etc. That is a huge point...its less about the richness of the school or the district...more about the $$ in the booster clubs and the wallets of the parents.

I'm still disgusted that TWHS did not get past Skyline this year. Everybody else is all, ewwwww....ahhhhhhhh! at their season. They had no competition for the entire playoff run until SKYLINE!!!! They finally got lucky and didn't have to play a Klein Oak or a Stony Point in the first 2 rounds. As much $$$$$ and talent as they have over there, they should be going much farther on a regular basis. Barf.

Shamu85
12-23-2011, 12:49 PM
One thing I think that wealthy areas have is attitude. A lot of the kids in these areas tend to have parents that instill a "life competitiveness" in them, as that is typically how they have been successful themselves. Take a look at the overall athletic programs of these wealthy areas and you will usually see one that is successful in multiple sports, both team and individual. LT has been successful in volleyball (full of athletes), football, baseball, basketball, golf. Westlake, The Woodlands, SLC, Highland Park...all pretty much the same way. These places tend to have programs in place that develop these competitive kids, too. Take New Braunfels for example. NB is a pretty diverse town, but there is also quite a bit of wealth there, too. They have one of the best tennis programs in the state - 4 straight SC's.

ganderif
12-23-2011, 01:10 PM
I never thought of this till now, but poorer kids can only eat so much at lunch(small milk, slice of pizza, handful of fries) than richer kids who can buy more to fill their tummies. This effects muscle growth as obviously football players need to eat more than what the school provided lunches give them.

E-Vol-ution
12-23-2011, 03:25 PM
I never thought of this till now, but poorer kids can only eat so much at lunch(small milk, slice of pizza, handful of fries) than richer kids who can buy more to fill their tummies. This effects muscle growth as obviously football players need to eat more than what the school provided lunches give them.

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy