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ScottS
12-03-2006, 09:58 PM
I hate these as its some pissed off fan looking for anyone they think can beat SLC....

http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115522

gwdaddy
12-03-2006, 10:07 PM
Which players would Carter be allowed to use?

Football Bum
12-03-2006, 10:10 PM
Don't sweat it. the '03,'04,and '05 team would have beat the '88 Carter team.

jakerz
12-03-2006, 10:10 PM
Well, the Dallas Carter from FNL would def. beat this years SLC team. Not sure about the real 88 Carter team though

Football Bum
12-03-2006, 10:11 PM
Which players would Carter be allowed to use?

All of the inelligable ones:D

Football Bum
12-03-2006, 10:13 PM
Well, the Dallas Carter from FNL would def. beat this years SLC team. Not sure about the real 88 Carter team though

Would not even been close. Too much Hollywood

Sakatha
12-03-2006, 10:18 PM
NEver a prayer... Any team prior to 1990, forget it...

Size, speed, training.. It goes on and on... Apples to Oranges.

~DnM

toddg
12-03-2006, 10:27 PM
they barely beat the real 88' permian team 14-9.

crawford86
12-03-2006, 10:48 PM
slc is a great great team creating there own dynasty but 88 carter would roll this years slc team.

cctharealest
12-03-2006, 11:20 PM
'88 carter was 06 trinity times 200. nuff said

crawford86
12-03-2006, 11:48 PM
'88 carter was 06 trinity times 200. nuff said

88 carter was more like north shore in 03 times 200, those boys were dangerous.

my3sons
12-04-2006, 12:34 AM
Well, if they played this year the 2006 SLC team would win because the 88 Carter team would be 36 years old (if not older -- not sure how many redshirts) and would be so out of shape. I doubt they could hang more than a quarter with SLC. Dragons moving toward another state final appearance. Has anyone gone to state 5 years in a row and won 4 of the 5 (in 5A)? Would be really impressive. Not counting chickens too early, lots of work to be done. I am sure Colleyvile, Allen, and Westfield want a piece of this SLC train. First stop C'ville.

farmerfan
12-04-2006, 12:42 AM
Well, if they played this year the 2006 SLC team would win because the 88 Carter team would be 36 years old (if not older -- not sure how many redshirts) and would be so out of shape. I doubt they could hang more than a quarter with SLC. Dragons moving toward another state final appearance. Has anyone gone to state 5 years in a row and won 4 of the 5 (in 5A)? Would be really impressive. Not counting chickens too early, lots of work to be done. I am sure Colleyvile, Allen, and Westfield want a piece of this SLC train. First stop C'ville.


No team in 5A has ever gone to 5 straight championship games. Katy at one point would have qualified for 4 in a row but they were DQ'd the day before the 98 finals.
The only 5A team to win 3 straight titles is Midland Lee 98-2000.

wise_man
12-04-2006, 12:45 AM
slc is a great great team creating there own dynasty but 88 carter would roll this years slc team.

I don't agree.... SLC would have beat 88 Carter Team, Carter Beat Mojo with out Boobie Miles, If Miles would have been healthy ... Mojo wins State that year. IMO there are only a handful of teams that could of beat SLC, AND ONLY ONE THAT WOULD OF BEAT SLC.

Mr_Lucci
12-04-2006, 12:47 AM
Carter would roll SLC!

my3sons
12-04-2006, 09:15 AM
Carter would roll SLC!

Mr Lucci, what do you base your opinion on?

SLCDad
12-04-2006, 09:22 AM
I think the quality of football played increases over time. On average, the teams of today are better than the teams of the past.

farmerfan
12-04-2006, 09:26 AM
I think the quality of football played increases over time. On average, the teams of today are better than the teams of the past.


How far back do you go though with "the past" I think the players of teams from the mid to late 80's on would be more than capable of adapting to the way the game is played today.

The Great Evaluator
12-04-2006, 09:37 AM
Hopefully the only people giving their opinions here saw both of them play in person. I'll jump in here because I'm one of the few that has. IMO, Carter would have had an edge. It's really hard to compare teams that are a generation apart but like SLC, that Carter team was 5-10 years ahead of its time.

Carter had 18 D-1 players on that team and 2 of them had long productive careers in the NFL. They are one of the best teams I've ever seen and last year's Dragons were one of the best I've ever seen. It would be a great game, who really knows who would have won, suffice to say there's probably not a great deal of difference between the 2 in all honesty. If I had to pick who I think would have won I would go with Carter but not by much, just my 2 cents.

BigRing5311
12-04-2006, 09:41 AM
Call Coach Gaines out at Ector Co., he's the authority and he's seen both of these teams up close and personal. He's also one of the classiest gentlemen you'll ever meet, so he'd probably say "That's a tough question, both of those teams were and are great. It would be a fun game to watch (but I guess I would have to lean towards Southlake because of the discipline that program demands of its athletes".) Might be a little author bias in the assumption within the parentheses.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-04-2006, 11:39 AM
It's actually pretty simple, guys. The evolution of football is the same as the evolution of technology. Football: the advancement in speed, agility, offensive/defensive scheme terminology, coaching, size and power.

Through what I remember...

Per Top Tier HSFB Team, in Texas:
From about 1980'ish thru 1992'ish, starting linemen avg'd 6'0 215 lbs.
From about 1992'ish thru current, starting linemen avg 6'2 245 lbs.
From about 1980'ish thru 1992'ish, starting skill players avg'd 4.70 40 yd dashes.
From about 1992'ish thru current, starting skill players avg 4.50 40 yd dashes.
From about 1980'ish thru 1992'ish, there were about 4 to 6 players that benched more than 300 lbs or squatted more than 375 lbs or power cleaned more than 275.
From about 1992'ish thru current, there are about 8 to 12 players that benched more than 300 lbs or squatted more than 375 lbs or power cleaned more than 275.
From about 1980'ish thru 1992'ish, offensive/defensive playbooks were about 1/4 of an inch thick.
From about 1992'ish thru current, offensive/defenisve playbooks were about 1 inch thick.

That said, you're talking about pitting a dominant team, from 1988, against a dominant team today. Which means all of the neccessities that were used to become dominant in 1988 would have to be translated, due to evolution, against teams today.

[Example]

1988 - Dallas Carter (376-119)
Scored 50 pts, once.
5 total shutouts.
No team scored more than 24 pts on Carter.
5 teams scored more than 7 pts on Carter.
Carter scored less than 33 pts 13 times.

vs

2005 - Southlake Carroll (764-256)
Scored 69, 66, 59, 55, 56, 52, 48, 48, 49 and 46 pts.
4 total shutouts.
No team scored more than 28 pts on SLC.
11 teams scored more than 7 pts on SLC.
SLC scored less than 33 pts 2 times.

In closing...
That Dallas Carter team would've had to outscore all of the SLC teams, including the 2006/current team. They showed, in 1988, that they were capable of scoring more than 33 pts, only 2 times....while SLC, of 2005, did it 14 times. (So did SLC 2002/2004, did it 15 times.)

If you believe that man evolves, thus does football, then you must believe being THAT much greater than teams, 19 yrs ago, doesn't neccessarily translate into the same kind of success, today. Though I have said, the Top 50 teams of all-time are probably a few plays from beating one another. Carter was a bad mama-jama, but give me the teams of today, in a shootout.

pack0808
12-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Many forget Marshall had that 88 team dead in the water before a miracle play. But do not get me wrong that team was one of the best and fastest I have ever personally saw live. I have seen some very very fast LP teams and this team was even faster. But there is no telling who would win it is too hard to predict? Players are bigger and stronger these days there is no question.

jrock89
12-04-2006, 12:27 PM
I hate these as its some pissed off fan looking for anyone they think can beat SLC....

http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115522

The thing about that Carter team was their phenominal athletes. They could be undisiplined at times and turn the ball over to keep lesser teams, like the 1988 Permian team,in games. If it was not in a downpour, and Carter would not have turned it over 5 times, they would have drilled that 88 Mojo team instead of the close call they had. Carter put it all together the next week and played nearly flawless against a Judson team that had only given up 51 points in 15 games and won easily 31-14.

That Carter team signed 22 college football scholarships, which was a national record at the time, and I'm sure is still a national record. Many of them had great college careers, and many of them also played in the NFL, with Jesse Armstead being the most recognized name.

They had six kids that went to prison for armed robbery, all of whom had college football scholarships, including the most famous Texas Algebra student ever, Gary Edwards, who had signed with Houston, and was the reason for that team being in trouble with the UIL in the first place. They also had a safety named Derrick Evans who was 6-3, 200 and ran a 4.3, was a Parade All-American like Armstead, and signed a scholarship to Tennessee on TV while sitting in a hottub!

Their 11 defensive starters averaged a 4.6 when combined together, and their slowest DBs ran 4.4!

So bottom line, if they played at the level they were capable of, they were able to beat anyone, including this year's SLC's team.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-04-2006, 12:37 PM
My point being made, right here....



Their 11 defensive starters averaged a 4.6 when combined together, and their slowest DBs ran 4.4!

So bottom line, if they played at the level they were capable of, they were able to beat anyone, including this year's SLC's team.

...since 1988, there have been several teams that have had defenses avg that kind of speed...and they've done it with evolving size, power and scheme.

In a few minutes, someone who saw the 2003 Northshore squad will post numbers that will match yours, plus add size and power to the mix.

I'm from the DFW area, and saw Carter play.....and I've seen alot of teams since then. 1988 Carter would struggle to beat quite a few teams, in my opinion. They were THAT much better than everyone else....back then, though.

Evolution.

G-Man
12-04-2006, 12:55 PM
Many forget Marshall had that 88 team dead in the water before a miracle play. But do not get me wrong that team was one of the best and fastest I have ever personally saw live. I have seen some very very fast LP teams and this team was even faster. But there is no telling who would win it is too hard to predict? Players are bigger and stronger these days there is no question.

Yes, I was scouting that game and with about 20 sec left and Carter trailing 4or5 pts when Jesse Armstead, the MLB told the coach to put him in at wide out, throw the ball up and he would catch it. He did and he did. Carter won. The week before in Texas Stadium, Armstead dove over the center on the snap of the ball TWICE and tackled the QB before he could get out from under center. Never seen anything like that before or since.

I still like Carter (pre-felony) over JT with Earl Campbell and over SLC with Dodge and Dodge.:)

oppmojo
12-04-2006, 03:53 PM
88 carter was more like north shore in 03 times 200, those boys were dangerous.
Dangerous if they were in a video store. SLC would have spanked them.

Sakatha
12-04-2006, 03:58 PM
Dangerous if they were in a video store. SLC would have spanked them.

omg ROFL

~DnM

bullrock
12-04-2006, 04:33 PM
SLC would win hands down...
Look at the scores.

Carter 14
MoJo 9

SLC 42
MOJO 6

That says it all. :D :) :p

And we got the title!!!!:cool:

jakerz
12-04-2006, 04:39 PM
SLC would win hands down...
Look at the scores.

Carter 14
MoJo 9

SLC 42
MOJO 6

That says it all. :D :) :p

And we got the title!!!!:cool:



Stupid

The Great Evaluator
12-04-2006, 05:14 PM
We all understand the strength and conditioning is better 20 years later but to be fair you have to figure that if the 88 Cowboys grew up during the same time that the modern day Dragons have, they would have been exponentially better. When your good, your good.

Earl Campbell played 30 years ago and he would still kick tail today if he was playing. Jesse Armstead was the same, it didn't matter what era he played in, he would still be the baddest motor scooter on the field. As much as I love Justin Padron, Armstead was better. Robert Hall as a quarterback was pretty good and I would have to say the teams they played back there were a little better comp than what Carroll has seen - at least this year. They tied Duncanville 21-21 that year but Duncanville had Barry Foster in the backfield!


Southlake has a far superior system but Carter had athletes good enough to hang with em, if not beat them - much like Lufkin the last few years. We'll have to settle for acknowledging that they are 2 of the most dominant teams ever to play H.S. Football.

Carroll has a dynasty but for one year Carter was good enough to play with anyone.

Matthew 2000 Eagle
12-04-2006, 05:14 PM
SLC would win hands down...
Look at the scores.

Carter 14
MoJo 9

SLC 42
MOJO 6

That says it all. :D :) :p

And we got the title!!!!:cool:
Those are also 2 different Mojo teams.

Matthew 2000 Eagle
12-04-2006, 05:19 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but, I had some kinfolk that played on the 1985 Jack Yates team. To be honest, I think '85 Yates and '88 Carter could've competed and done very well today. Of course, this is my opinion, but the size and speed that Carter and Yates had back then, could've transformed into bigger and faster players today (notice I said COULD'VE!).

ThEgReAtOnE
12-04-2006, 08:11 PM
We all understand the strength and conditioning is better 20 years later but to be fair you have to figure that if the 88 Cowboys grew up during the same time that the modern day Dragons have, they would have been exponentially better. When your good, your good.

Earl Campbell played 30 years ago and he would still kick tail today if he was playing. Jesse Armstead was the same, it didn't matter what era he played in, he would still be the baddest motor scooter on the field. As much as I love Justin Padron, Armstead was better. Robert Hall as a quarterback was pretty good and I would have to say the teams they played back there were a little better comp than what Carroll has seen - at least this year. They tied Duncanville 21-21 that year but Duncanville had Barry Foster in the backfield!


Southlake has a far superior system but Carter had athletes good enough to hang with em, if not beat them - much like Lufkin the last few years. We'll have to settle for acknowledging that they are 2 of the most dominant teams ever to play H.S. Football.

Carroll has a dynasty but for one year Carter was good enough to play with anyone.

To acknowledge the evolution of sports, then project the past as being better than the present is odd, IMO. You said Earl Campbell, 35 yrs ago, was out of this world. 35 yrs later, you say he would be just as dominant. I have a hard time believing that. He would probably be ONE of the best, but the best(?)...I doubt it. There has been several big RB's, over the last 35 yrs, that had more size, power, explosion, speed and agility than Earl Campbell. It's not hope....it's fact. Imagine if you picked the HS version of Cedric Benson, Adrian Peterson, Jerod Douglas, Rodney Thomas and dozens of other great backs, up by their jerseys then drop them in 1971 or 1972...how dominant they'd be? They'd be the best athletes/players on the field, IMO.

The argument of past athletes vs present goes in hand with this hypothetical thought....

You could have a Boxer that's 7'0 300 lbs, runs a 4.1 40 yd dash, bench press 700 lbs, squat 1200 lbs, have the quickness of Floyd Mayweather and the intensity of Lawrence Taylor...

...he could've killed 6 people in the boxing ring, defended his title 147 times - in a row, walked on water, breathed flames, levitated to the moon and produced lightining from his finger tips...

...and some 63 yr-old would say, "Ya, but I bet'cha Ali would've kicked his a--!"

It's the representation of ones' era. The thought of our heros or the things we thought of being undefeatable, actually, losing....kills us on the inside.

Evolution. It can be a bi---!

Slim-Rob
12-04-2006, 08:49 PM
the carter defense would not know what to do with SLC's offense. SLC by a lot, definantly.

mojoman21
12-04-2006, 09:45 PM
i've seen them both play, and i would say that slc would win. you can't compare that permian team to this one though.who ever said permian would get rolled by that carter team because of turnovers wasn't at the game.carter throws a bomb on third down that skiped across the turf, and they gave him a completion. carter scored the next play and won the game. it was a close game. slc has a great defense also this year, and i believe they would win. now yates would have been a different story. those boys were the best i"ve seen.

wampuscat
12-04-2006, 09:58 PM
What about SCL Vs. a Team of mini Ditkas? Did I mention full size Ditka is driving the bus?

DA BEARRRRRRRRRRRS! 472 to 8
SLC gets 8 points after bears take 4 safties out of sympathy.

Mr_Lucci
12-04-2006, 10:28 PM
Mr Lucci, what do you base your opinion on?

Purely on facts! I have seen all of SLC's 5A State Title teams play on tv and I saw Carter live in '88. Trust me, Carter would beat all of your 5A Title teams. Sorry! Nothing personal but SLC is not the best team to ever play 5-A High school ball in Texas! Slc just happens to be the hottest team right now. The flavor of the month. At one time Permian was the best ever to play in Texas. Then Judson came along. After that Westlake was hot. Then Midland Lee and so on and so on. So don't get your feelings hurt. It is just a cycle and a time will come where your cyle will end too.

Mr_Lucci
12-04-2006, 10:34 PM
.....

Mr_Lucci
12-04-2006, 10:39 PM
Mr Lucci, what do you base your opinion on?


JRock'89 said:
The thing about that Carter team was their phenominal athletes.Carter played nearly flawless against a Judson team that had only given up 51 points in 15 games and won easily 31-14.That Carter team signed 22 college football scholarships, which was a national record at the time, and I'm sure is still a national record. Many of them had great college careers, and many of them also played in the NFL, with Jesse Armstead being the most recognized name including the most famous Texas Algebra student ever, Gary Edwards, who had signed with Houston, They also had a safety named Derrick Evans who was 6-3, 200 and ran a 4.3, was a Parade All-American like Armstead, and signed a scholarship to Tennessee on TV while sitting in a hottub!Their 11 defensive starters averaged a 4.6 when combined together, and their slowest DBs ran 4.4!So bottom line, if they played at the level they were capable of, they were able to beat anyone, including this year's SLC's team

Matthew 2000 Eagle
12-04-2006, 11:23 PM
i've seen them both play, and i would say that slc would win. you can't compare that permian team to this one though.who ever said permian would get rolled by that carter team because of turnovers wasn't at the game.carter throws a bomb on third down that skiped across the turf, and they gave him a completion. carter scored the next play and won the game. it was a close game. slc has a great defense also this year, and i believe they would win. now yates would have been a different story. those boys were the best i"ve seen.
Thumbs up! See my post above.

rattlerfan
12-04-2006, 11:37 PM
I hate these as its some pissed off fan looking for anyone they think can beat SLC....

http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115522

I agree it's like a bad Longest Yard remake...why even discuss..ineligible "players"

LoneRocket
12-05-2006, 08:23 AM
I agree it's like a bad Longest Yard remake...why even discuss..ineligible "players"
ineligible player not players get it right.

LoneRocket
12-05-2006, 08:28 AM
Purely on facts! I have seen all of SLC's 5A State Title teams play on tv and I saw Carter live in '88. Trust me, Carter would beat all of your 5A Title teams. Sorry! Nothing personal but SLC is not the best team to ever play 5-A High school ball in Texas! Slc just happens to be the hottest team right now. The flavor of the month. At one time Permian was the best ever to play in Texas. Then Judson came along. After that Westlake was hot. Then Midland Lee and so on and so on. So don't get your feelings hurt. It is just a cycle and a time will come where your cyle will end too.
When their QB Robert Hall was knocked out on their first or second series by our DE's I thought the game was going to be over. He went back in the game and stuffed it down our throats. I never seen a LB hit like Jessie Armstead, he just exploded into you. Their HC and DC at the time were never short on words. It would be nice if we could play them again in the future.

RidgePride
12-05-2006, 06:11 PM
Do you guys think 88 Carter could have beaten 06 Trinity?
If you think so, then 88 Carter could beat 06 Carroll.

By the way - High school players in 88 were about the same size as high school players in 06.

I am sure Armstead and Gary Edwards and Company were comparable if not bigger than what SLC has to offer.

Carroll O-Line averages what 255

MatrixMaster
12-05-2006, 06:13 PM
I believe Trinityís 2005 teamís offensive line averaged 289 pounds a man right?

ThEgReAtOnE
12-05-2006, 07:12 PM
Do you guys think 88 Carter could have beaten 06 Trinity?
If you think so, then 88 Carter could beat 06 Carroll.

By the way - High school players in 88 were about the same size as high school players in 06.

I am sure Armstead and Gary Edwards and Company were comparable if not bigger than what SLC has to offer.

Carroll O-Line averages what 255

On average, high school players, in 1988, were not the same size of high school players, today. (Nor were they "about" the same size, on avg.) Were there there some 280 pounders or low-290 pounders? Very, very few. (And I'm sure some will say, "Our entire O-line, in 1986 was 315 lbs"...honestly, I'd highly doubt that.) Today, there are several teams with 3 or more 300 pounders. (Hell, there wasn't very many 290 pounders - let alone 300 pounders - in the NFL, in 1988.) Were there some 6'2 220 pound LB's, in HS, in 1988? Very few. Today, there are several teams with 6'2 220 pound LB's. The average speed of 4.7, then, isn't quite the same speed of an avg of 4.5, today. Power is another evolved aspect that goes un-recognized. While good, if not great, linemen were considered powerful, if they benched 270 lbs, squatted 350 lbs and power cleaned 250 lbs....today, good, if not great, linemen are measured at besting more than 315 lbs in bench, 500 lbs in squat, and 300 lbs in power clean. Trust me...those aspects are a world'a difference.

Evans ran a 4.4 and was a monster! There are several 6'2 to 6'3 athletes that run 4.4 or better, and hit just as hard. Their targets are just bigger and stronger. Hell, there's a d-end that's 6'5 272 lbs and runs a 4.48, in Arizona. YES...4.48! It's all in relation to the era.

Carter LOOKED that much bigger, faster, stronger and dominant than everyone else.....therefore they'll always be undefeatable. Me....I'd rather except evolution, and move on with the understanding that 20 yrs from now there may be 5 or 6 teams that will be bigger, faster, stronger and flatout better than the SLC, Northshore, Garland, Katy and etc. teams of today.

Maroon Cathead
12-05-2006, 10:01 PM
CSHS has a great program; did in the past and has under Coach Dodge.

Yet, I saw Carter High School in 1988 with Jessie Armstead. And I saw some of the Permian High School teams in the 80's and early 90's. I saw the 1985 Yates team on television bring the wood to Permian High School. All of those teams looked better than any CSHS team I've seen, and the CSHS teams have been very good.

Just another opinion and observation.

The Great Evaluator
12-05-2006, 10:04 PM
I guess its all relative, since the 88 Cowboys can't magically appear at Texas Stadium this weekend there's no way to no for sure - but I might just take the 88 Carter Cowboys just the way they are today. I'm pretty sure Jessie Armstead, Le'Shai Maston, Derric Evans and Gary Edwards could hang with the Carroll Dragons, even 18 years out of high school. BTW, the mojo poster was absolutely right about the 85 Yates team, there's no doubt in my mind they'd have the Carroll boys runnin home to their mamas. He knows because he saw them abuse a great Permian team to the tune of 37-0. It was the most dominating performance I've ever seen.

mojoman21
12-05-2006, 10:17 PM
one of my best friends was a real quick 2 technique, he told me he would get laid flat on his back almost every play. they could flat out play.:cool:

mojoman21
12-05-2006, 10:18 PM
that was back when we had defense's like carol has now.

The Great Evaluator
12-06-2006, 09:10 AM
As good as Permian was back then, they'd be the first to tell you it was men amongst boys that day.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 09:54 AM
As good as Permian was back then, they'd be the first to tell you it was men amongst boys that day.


Men amongst Boys?

Dallas Carter (1988) State Title Run
Dallas Carter 21 Plano East 7 (PESH was 9-1)
Dallas Carter 28 Dallas Samuell 0 (?)
Dallas Carter 31 Lufkin 7 (10-1)
Dallas Carter 22 Marshall 18 (12-0)
Dallas Carter 14 Odessa Permian 9 (12-2)
Dallas Carter 31 Converse Judson 14 (14-1)

Pts forced/allowed: 147-55 (92 pt diff.)

if Dallas Carter (1988) was "men amongst boys"....

Southlake Carroll (2005) State Title Run
Southlake Carroll 48 Irving Macarthur 21 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 45 Allen 15 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 52 Abilene 0 (12-0)
Southlake Carroll 37 Plano 27 (13-0)
Southlake Carroll 46 Lufkin 28 (14-0)
Southlake Carroll 34 Katy 20 (14-0)

Pts forced/allowed: 262-111 (151 pt diff.)

....then what was Southlake Carroll (2005)?

I believe there are probably 30 to 35 teams that have come along, since 1988, that could play with, if not beat, Carter (1988). JMO.

farmerfan
12-06-2006, 10:30 AM
Men amongst Boys?

Dallas Carter (1988) State Title Run
Dallas Carter 21 Plano East 7 (PESH was 9-1)
Dallas Carter 28 Dallas Samuell 0 (?)
Dallas Carter 31 Lufkin 7 (10-1)
Dallas Carter 22 Marshall 18 (12-0)
Dallas Carter 14 Odessa Permian 9 (12-2)
Dallas Carter 31 Converse Judson 14 (14-1)

Pts forced/allowed: 147-55 (92 pt diff.)

if Dallas Carter (1988) was "men amongst boys"....

Southlake Carroll (2005) State Title Run
Southlake Carroll 48 Irving Macarthur 21 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 45 Allen 15 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 52 Abilene 0 (12-0)
Southlake Carroll 37 Plano 27 (13-0)
Southlake Carroll 46 Lufkin 28 (14-0)
Southlake Carroll 34 Katy 20 (14-0)

Pts forced/allowed: 262-111 (151 pt diff.)

....then what was Southlake Carroll (2005)?

I believe there are probably 30 to 35 teams that have come along, since 1988, that could play with, if not beat, Carter (1988). JMO.

I think the Great Evaluator was refering to Yates in 85 and not 88 Carter.

The Great Evaluator
12-06-2006, 10:32 AM
Farmerfan is correct, the Yates players could have easily passed for being in their early 20's.

The Great Evaluator
12-06-2006, 10:36 AM
Men amongst Boys?

Dallas Carter (1988) State Title Run
Dallas Carter 21 Plano East 7 (PESH was 9-1)
Dallas Carter 28 Dallas Samuell 0 (?)
Dallas Carter 31 Lufkin 7 (10-1)
Dallas Carter 22 Marshall 18 (12-0)
Dallas Carter 14 Odessa Permian 9 (12-2)
Dallas Carter 31 Converse Judson 14 (14-1)

Pts forced/allowed: 147-55 (92 pt diff.)

if Dallas Carter (1988) was "men amongst boys"....

Southlake Carroll (2005) State Title Run
Southlake Carroll 48 Irving Macarthur 21 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 45 Allen 15 (9-1)
Southlake Carroll 52 Abilene 0 (12-0)
Southlake Carroll 37 Plano 27 (13-0)
Southlake Carroll 46 Lufkin 28 (14-0)
Southlake Carroll 34 Katy 20 (14-0)

Pts forced/allowed: 262-111 (151 pt diff.)

....then what was Southlake Carroll (2005)?

I believe there are probably 30 to 35 teams that have come along, since 1988, that could play with, if not beat, Carter (1988). JMO.

Sure when you consider there have been thousands of teams that have played since 1988, I would agree that there have been a handful of teams that were as good if not a little better than Carter. My top 5 over the last quarter century (in no particular order)would rank as follows:

1985 Houston Yates
1988 Carter
2005 Carroll Dragons
2003 North Shore
1989 Permian

mojoman21
12-06-2006, 11:09 AM
the 91 permian tean gets overlooked alot. they were awesome too. there defense could shut down anyone.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 11:09 AM
Farmerfan is correct, the Yates players could have easily passed for being in their early 20's.

LOL:D

farmerfan
12-06-2006, 11:16 AM
the 91 permian tean gets overlooked alot. they were awesome too. there defense could shut down anyone.

The 91 team was great. What they did the Shawn Walters out in Odessa still shocks me some 15 years later. John Williams was a stud as a sophmore that season too. I still think one of the better Permian teams ever was the 93 squad its a crying shame that the circumstances that unfolded did for them that year.

RidgePride
12-06-2006, 12:15 PM
JRock'89 said:
They also had a safety named Derrick Evans who was 6-3, 200 and ran a 4.3, was a Parade All-American like Armstead, and signed a scholarship to Tennessee on TV while sitting in a hottub!Their 11 defensive starters averaged a 4.6 when combined together, and their slowest DBs ran 4.4!So bottom line, if they played at the level they were capable of, they were able to beat anyone, including this year's SLC's team

Oh that is nothing - with the evolution of these high school players a 4.3 or 4.4 is considered average.

Truth is - the skill players from the last 20 years are all the same. They are not bigger or faster.

Any evidence to prove otherwise would be futile. The lineman may be a little bigger because of more emphasis on weight training.

NFL and College is a different story -

desotoeaglesgrad
12-06-2006, 12:45 PM
Wait, is this the same 88 Carter team that had a 17-17 tie against Duncanville and only beat DeSoto 7-0 (I happened to be in the band for that game)? Carter was overrated then and they are still overrated. I have never had respect for a team that cheated from the coach all the way down. I happen to remember coach James being caught on camera coaching from the press box at our stadium after he was told by the DISD to sit out all of their district games. SLC would have their heads spinning from all the passes thrown, and Trinity would stuff it right down their throats.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 01:37 PM
Truth is - the skill players from the last 20 years are all the same. They are not bigger or faster. Any evidence to prove otherwise would be futile.

IMO, on average, skill players are bigger and faster, today.

Also, you pointed out the word "evolution". It just doesn't pertain to one grouping or subject, in this matter. JMO.

And since when does "evidence" prove to be futile? The very definition of the word combats your positioning, of futility.

ev∑i∑dence (v-dns) KEY

NOUN:
1) Thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment.
2) Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
VERB:
1) To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
2) To support by testimony; attest.

fu∑til∑i∑ty (fy-tl-t) KEY

NOUN:
1) The quality of having no useful result; uselessness.
2) Lack of importance or purpose; frivolousness.

To say "evidence" would be "useless", is to say fact would not be taken into consideration.

Odd.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 01:42 PM
Wait, is this the same 88 Carter team that had a 17-17 tie against Duncanville and only beat DeSoto 7-0 (I happened to be in the band for that game)? Carter was overrated then and they are still overrated. I have never had respect for a team that cheated from the coach all the way down. I happen to remember coach James being caught on camera coaching from the press box at our stadium after he was told by the DISD to sit out all of their district games. SLC would have their heads spinning from all the passes thrown, and Trinity would stuff it right down their throats.

Yup, that's the same '88 Carter team. They were solid, and had some excellent talent, but I believe there has been several teams, since then, that could play with them, if not beat that team.

desotoeaglesgrad
12-06-2006, 01:57 PM
Yup, that's the same '88 Carter team. They were solid, and had some excellent talent, but I believe there has been several teams, since then, that could play with them, if not beat that team.

The 93 DeSoto team could have beaten them, I know that for sure. What people forget is that Carter had a great defense but not a great offense. They could not have kept up with all the teams that play the spread formation now. By the way, the reason the 93 Eagles were so good (12-1, #2 nationally at the end of the regular season) was because several of their starters transferred from Carter because they did not want to be associated with the school. We even had players transferring from Carter to DeSoto the Spring of my senior year (1990) so that they would not have that school listed on their transcripts.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 02:06 PM
The 93 DeSoto team could have beaten them, I know that for sure. What people forget is that Carter had a great defense but not a great offense. They could not have kept up with all the teams that play the spread formation now. By the way, the reason the 93 Eagles were so good (12-1, #2 nationally at the end of the regular season) was because several of their starters transferred from Carter because they did not want to be associated with the school. We even had players transferring from Carter to DeSoto the Spring of my senior year (1990) so that they would not have that school listed on their transcripts.

I could sum up the 1993 Desoto Eagles in two words...." BYRON HANSPARD".

Great team!

desotoeaglesgrad
12-06-2006, 02:08 PM
I could sum up the 1993 Desoto Eagles in two words...." BYRON HANSPARD".

Great team!

Yeah, don't forget what he did against Carter in the second round that year. Had Coach Dial had been in charge in '88, the outcome might have been different.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-06-2006, 02:21 PM
Yeah, don't forget what he did against Carter in the second round that year. Had Coach Dial had been in charge in '88, the outcome might have been different.

I bumped into quite a few Desoto Eagles, in Byron Hanspard and Detron Woodson. A few others...can't remember their names. (One was....R.Harris?...played DT, in the early 90's....short at 5'10 300...benched 425 in HS...boxed, as well. Now he's a powerlifter.) Can't remember the others name.

The Great Evaluator
12-06-2006, 04:28 PM
Randall Harris is who your thinking of and he was a fireplug built in the mode of Jerry Ball.

RidgePride
12-06-2006, 04:28 PM
IMO, on average, skill players are bigger and faster, today.

Also, you pointed out the word "evolution". It just doesn't pertain to one grouping or subject, in this matter. JMO.

And since when does "evidence" prove to be futile? The very definition of the word combats your positioning, of futility.

ev∑i∑dence (v-dns) KEY

NOUN:
1) Thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment.
2) Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
VERB:
1) To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
2) To support by testimony; attest.

fu∑til∑i∑ty (fy-tl-t) KEY

NOUN:
1) The quality of having no useful result; uselessness.
2) Lack of importance or purpose; frivolousness.

To say "evidence" would be "useless", is to say fact would not be taken into consideration.

Odd.

You are right - I was typing quickly when I said the evidence would be futile -I meant any attempt to find evidence would be futile -

I have been around football for many years and I just do not think the athletes have more raw talent than that of late 80's athletes. I do think they are more skilled today - no question.

I also don't feel they are much bigger than early 90's players.

Floyd the Barber
12-06-2006, 04:47 PM
NEver a prayer... Any team prior to 1990, forget it...

Size, speed, training.. It goes on and on... Apples to Oranges.

~DnM

Anybody that actually saw that Carter team would know better than this statement.

Did any starter on defense run over a 4.6. I doubt it.

Their defense was outstanding, looked a lot like Daingerfield's in 1984.

Matthew 2000 Eagle
12-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Farmerfan is correct, the Yates players could have easily passed for being in their early 20's.
Yeah, I saw pictures of my kin and the rest of the team. He, and alot of the other guys looked like they should've had their ages questioned.

The Great Evaluator
12-06-2006, 09:44 PM
The 85 Yates team was the most impressive looking team physically of any I've ever seen - that's why I referred to their game with Permian literally as "men amongst boys". No doubt in my mind a few of them were 21 and that's why they would have probably put a real hurtin on the Carroll boys.

Sakatha
12-06-2006, 10:04 PM
Anybody that actually saw that Carter team would know better than this statement.

Did any starter on defense run over a 4.6. I doubt it.

Their defense was outstanding, looked a lot like Daingerfield's in 1984.

Saw it.. Armstead's team...

No prayer...

~DnM

Matthew 2000 Eagle
12-07-2006, 06:25 AM
The 85 Yates team was the most impressive looking team physically of any I've ever seen - that's why I referred to their game with Permian literally as "men amongst boys". No doubt in my mind a few of them were 21 and that's why they would have probably put a real hurtin on the Carroll boys.
I still question him to this day.:p

StormingCowboy
12-07-2006, 08:08 AM
The 93 DeSoto team could have beaten them, I know that for sure. What people forget is that Carter had a great defense but not a great offense. They could not have kept up with all the teams that play the spread formation now. By the way, the reason the 93 Eagles were so good (12-1, #2 nationally at the end of the regular season) was because several of their starters transferred from Carter because they did not want to be associated with the school. We even had players transferring from Carter to DeSoto the Spring of my senior year (1990) so that they would not have that school listed on their transcripts.

The 93' team of Desoto was a good team but they didn't win state so they weren't even the best in Texas that year( when there were 2 divisions). When Carter won, there was only 1 state champion. No argument.

By the way, as far as transfers in 93', the starters that mattered stayed at Carter....

ThEgReAtOnE
12-07-2006, 09:22 AM
By the way, as far as transfers in 93', the starters that mattered stayed at Carter....

Sorry, I have to represent the then-12-5A...

In the Area Playoffs, Desoto beat Carter, 52-27, in 1993. My guess is that the "starters that mattered" didn't matter that much.

StormingCowboy
12-07-2006, 10:41 AM
Sorry, I have to represent the then-12-5A...

In the Area Playoffs, Desoto beat Carter, 52-27, in 1993. My guess is that the "starters that mattered" didn't matter that much.

Whatever floats your boat....

As far as your point, exactly. The starters that were good at Desoto were already attending Desoto the previous year. None of Carter's best players left Carter to go to Desoto.

ThEgReAtOnE
12-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Whatever floats your boat....

As far as your point, exactly. The starters that were good at Desoto were already attending Desoto the previous year. None of Carter's best players left Carter to go to Desoto.


Hey, SC....why do you think Carter has struggled to win State Championships? I always wondered why they consistantly have 5 to 6 - if not more - D1 prospects, every year, yet they never seem to make the big game. Is it the DISD? Is it the coaching? Is it the attitude of the players? Is it the hypothetical notion of inner-city schools/environments? (Thug mentality, non-disciplined, and the other crap?) I could say the same thing about the old Kimball, Skyline, SOC and Roosevelt teams.

What's your opinion?

pack0808
12-07-2006, 10:52 AM
Hey, SC....why do you think Carter has struggled to win State Championships? I always wondered why they consistantly have 5 to 6 - if not more - D1 prospects, every year, yet they never seem to make the big game. Is it the DISD? Is it the coaching? Is it the attitude of the players? Is it the hypothetical notion of inner-city schools/environments? (Thug mentality, non-disciplined, and the other crap?) I could say the same thing about the old Kimball, Skyline, SOC and Roosevelt teams.

What's your opinion?


It is because they had to play east texas teams in the early rounds of the playoffs. :eek:

bullrock
12-07-2006, 11:03 AM
This thread is getting no where and is about as "stupid" as my post was in the biginning. By the way, that's what I was called for posting my opinion. There is never going to be a way to prove anything. By what I'm reading, '88 Carter wouldn't be able to stay with Laredo United this year because they run a spread offense? So that means SA Reagan is better than the '88 Carter team because they beat United.....it goes on and on and ..... ...... .................................................. .........:eek: How about we agree with this. They were the best that year. Who's to say the 91 SLC team couldn't beat the 06 SLC team?

ThEgReAtOnE
12-07-2006, 11:17 AM
This thread is getting no where and is about as "stupid" as my post was in the biginning. By the way, that's what I was called for posting my opinion. There is never going to be a way to prove anything. By what I'm reading, '88 Carter wouldn't be able to stay with Laredo United this year because they run a spread offense? So that means SA Reagan is better than the '88 Carter team because they beat United.....it goes on and on and ..... ...... .................................................. .........:eek: How about we agree with this. They were the best that year. Who's to say the 91 SLC team couldn't beat the 06 SLC team?

Agree'd.

StormingCowboy
12-07-2006, 11:48 AM
Hey, SC....why do you think Carter has struggled to win State Championships? I always wondered why they consistantly have 5 to 6 - if not more - D1 prospects, every year, yet they never seem to make the big game. Is it the DISD? Is it the coaching? Is it the attitude of the players? Is it the hypothetical notion of inner-city schools/environments? (Thug mentality, non-disciplined, and the other crap?) I could say the same thing about the old Kimball, Skyline, SOC and Roosevelt teams.

What's your opinion?


It's the combination of everything you named. However, I must admit things have gotten better in the last few years. DISD support improved when Troy Mathieu became Asst. AD of DISD. I hate he left this summer!!
Also, Wilson has brought Carter a long way from where they were. Those years of "4 coaches in 5 years" really set their football program back. Wilson has brought it back up.

The attitude of the players have improved but is not where it needs to be. I will say that for the most part, by the time players reach the varsity level, many of their "bad apple" teammates usually will have dropped off.
There is a mentality/discipline issue with a lot of our kids (that extend beyond sports) that affects them in sports, and I believe hinders them from going to the next level.

The next question is how do you resolve it?? My answer is that it starts at birth!! A child starts to learn discipline very early and there are simple things that should be taught and enforced then that has a lasting affect as that child grows. If it hasn't been taught and enforced it will show up even in the extra-curricular activities later on in life.

desotoeaglesgrad
12-07-2006, 11:49 AM
This thread is getting no where and is about as "stupid" as my post was in the biginning. By the way, that's what I was called for posting my opinion. There is never going to be a way to prove anything. By what I'm reading, '88 Carter wouldn't be able to stay with Laredo United this year because they run a spread offense? So that means SA Reagan is better than the '88 Carter team because they beat United.....it goes on and on and ..... ...... .................................................. .........:eek: How about we agree with this. They were the best that year. Who's to say the 91 SLC team couldn't beat the 06 SLC team?


This is true. We will never know, and there are better things to discuss. Here is a thought, though. Wouldn't it benefit the current Carter teams to be out of a district consisting of just Dallas schools? They are really offered no competitipn there, and it seems to come back and bite them in the playoffs.

StormingCowboy
12-07-2006, 11:54 AM
This is true. We will never know, and there are better things to discuss. Here is a thought, though. Wouldn't it benefit the current Carter teams to be out of a district consisting of just Dallas schools? They are really offered no competitipn there, and it seems to come back and bite them in the playoffs.

Wilson actually was hoping to be in the district w/ CH, Desoto, Duncanville.

desotoeaglesgrad
12-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Wilson actually was hoping to be in the district w/ CH, Desoto, Duncanville.

I heard about that. It would have benefitted all four schools, especially with 4 schools making the playoffs now. Any chance any of the current DISD schools drop to 4A in the next reallignment (I know Carter is the smallest school, but there are a couple other schools close to the cutoff)? Or would the DISD consider allowing their 5A schools to be split into different districts? Anything to give Carter a challenge. Besides, it would make for a great 4-way rivalry since D'Ville, Carter, DeSoto, and CH are so close.

farmerfan
12-07-2006, 12:55 PM
I heard about that. It would have benefitted all four schools, especially with 4 schools making the playoffs now. Any chance any of the current DISD schools drop to 4A in the next reallignment (I know Carter is the smallest school, but there are a couple other schools close to the cutoff)? Or would the DISD consider allowing their 5A schools to be split into different districts? Anything to give Carter a challenge. Besides, it would make for a great 4-way rivalry since D'Ville, Carter, DeSoto, and CH are so close.

I am not a fan of track, but if that district ever took shape, I would be at every district track meet from here on out. Man that would givethe US time trials a run for its money.

StormingCowboy
12-07-2006, 03:06 PM
I heard about that. It would have benefitted all four schools, especially with 4 schools making the playoffs now. Any chance any of the current DISD schools drop to 4A in the next reallignment (I know Carter is the smallest school, but there are a couple other schools close to the cutoff)? Or would the DISD consider allowing their 5A schools to be split into different districts? Anything to give Carter a challenge. Besides, it would make for a great 4-way rivalry since D'Ville, Carter, DeSoto, and CH are so close.

DISD just opened a high school in North Dallas called Conrad. It affected Hillcrest(4A) the most and the other bordering school was also 4A so it wouldn't be noticeable.

There is another high school being built in Dallas now, and it will affect Adamson the most and maybe Sunset(5A).

In other words, I think Carter is stuck in DISD alignments!! It's probably a money issue somewhere in the picture!!