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zippy
08-29-2005, 11:26 PM
Oh guys, here is the start to the new info you wanted. This is the most recent 2005 class of recruits and their respected States that the represent:

Top 100 prospects of this years NCAA recruits

Top 50

Texas - 7
Califor - 6
Florida - 4
La - 1

Top 100

Cali - 12
Texas -11
Florida- 10
La -3

Texas === had the 9th overall player
La =====had the # 2 top recruit (SLC's qb might know his name)
Cali===== had the 1st overall
Florida got the==== #5, #6, and #7 spot.


Now its up to you do break it down. Cali got the #1 prospect, while florida had 3 of the top 10. Texas only had one in the top 10, but the most in the top 50, and second most in the top 100, behind Cali, who had the #1 best out there. This one is going to be hard to break down on which state produces the most talent. If it broken down into just the top 100 everything aside then it looks like this:

Top 100

Cali - 12 == 12% (of top 100 recruits produced)
Texas -11== 11% "" "
Florida- 10=== 10%
La -3=== 3%

Overall breakdown and ranking: La is out, and I would have to rank it Florida, Cali, Texas this year as much as I had to do so. Florida goes ahead of Cali due to the fact that they produced 3 in the top 10, and Cali had more than total than Texas, with the # 1 recruit compared to Texas's # 9. So based on talent in the US here is my final best talent producing team from the 2005 graduating class

#1 Florida
# 2 California
# 3 Texas

The year prior it was:

Texas, La, Fl and then Cali. Now there are several kids that may not have been a top 100 prosepect that might be great in college or the NFL, however some of these top players might not be very good. But as of this, this is how it stands right now.

Here is another fun fact, between these 3 power states they had 33 percent of the top recruits in the nation, yet they only make up 6% of the nations states. More to come. Analyze this and see where you might disagree with anything. I was going to take more time on it, but I really wanted to find out today!

zippy
08-29-2005, 11:33 PM
moving it up, please add insight to this, and dont let it get away. I had some people that are off to bed that wanted to see it. Thanks

Firebird
08-29-2005, 11:51 PM
Zippy, you are taking us so deep inside the numbers I don't know how to find your way back out. I really do think that analyzing top ten lists and top 100 lists can give you the answer as too the best talent producing state. The rankings systems are far too subjective.

How do you determine who is "better" between a top- tier quarterback and an offensive lineman? TD passes are a sexier statistic than pancake blocks, but colege coaches need both. How much difference is there, really, between the number 10 and number 11 players according to Rivals.com? Or, for that matter 100 and 101? What if Texas had that number 101 player, thereby giving us 12 players in the top 101? (I always felt bad for number 101.) Would that push ahead of California? True, Florida has 5,6, and 7, but what if Texashad the 9, 11, 12, 13? How would that put us in the rankings?

The fact of the matter is, the there is often very little qualitative difference between any of the top 50 players in the nation, with the possible exception of the truly outstanding players in perhaps the top 2-3 spots. (Which are nearly always hogged by "glamour" position players- QB's, RB's, WR's). All of them are outstanding athletes, any college coach would salivate at the thought of landing a top 50 player for his team. Often a players stock can rise because of the number of great players available at his position-- if it is not a good year for LB's-- then the ones that are out there get a lot of press, with less competion to detract attention.

I still think the best yardstick is number of Division 1- college scholarships awarded, although it too is imperfect. Instead of a world of questionable 40 times, benc presses, and padded stats, one question is answered-- were there collge coaches willing to give a kid a free ride to college in exchange for his skills at football, or not? (Texas nearly always wins this one).

All in all though, all the quibbiling and number crunching won't give you an answer. The big three-- Fla, Cali, and Texas-- produce an abundance of football talent, a testament to their huge populations and the popularity of the sport. Who is number 1-- too close to call, ever, if you are honest about it.

westlake
08-30-2005, 12:01 AM
i think pancake blocks are very sexy.

ThEgReAtOnE
08-30-2005, 07:20 AM
In 2004 ABC reported that Houston, Texas had more athletes in the NFL than any other city in the country.

Dallas was 3rd, behind Miami, Florida.

High School Football to Texas is like Hollywood to California.

:D

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 10:05 AM
In 2004 ABC reported that Houston, Texas had more athletes in the NFL than any other city in the country.

Dallas was 3rd, behind Miami, Florida.

High School Football to Texas is like Hollywood to California.

:D

Ya, and if you took a region. The East Tx region is probably the best in America (per-capita) for producing top line football players. :)

owlbandad
08-30-2005, 10:17 AM
Here is another fun fact, between these 3 power states they had 33 percent of the top recruits in the nation, yet they only make up 6% of the nations states. More to come. Analyze this and see where you might disagree with anything. I was going to take more time on it, but I really wanted to find out today!

The 6% number is useless. CA, TX, and FL contain 25.5% of the population. 33% of the top recruits from 25% of the population is, I think, a better reading on high school football quality. And if you consider that Texas is roughly neck and neck with California, even though Texas has less than two thirds of California's popluation, the picture of Texas as an over the top high school football state becomes a good bit clearer.

DW@SunshinePreps
08-30-2005, 11:17 AM
A case can be made for California for the fact they have the most NFL players, they have won a NCAA championship recently, and point to the success of many of their home grown talent.

A case can be made for Texas in how many D1 kids they sign, the fact their players have made a big impact in the NFL and have helped schools like Oklahom build their program with Texas talent, and their recent success with Texas becoming a dominant elite team.

A case can be made for Florida in how they put the same number of kids in the NFL with 66% less population (TX has 1500 HS football teams compared to FL having 500 roughly), Florida can also claim 3 of their college teams having all won championships and also helping other college teams win as well. Also Florida has a definite winning percentage against California and Georgia both in their states all star games.

My point being the level of football played in the Big 3 (CA,TX,FL) is as good as it gets. Quality can be found in a big way in many other states but due to the large number of populations in TX/CA, the numbers will be much less. Do not count out some of these other states though. A team of Georgia's top 40 kids could come into Texas and whip their top 40 one year and whip Florida's top 40 the next. Same goes for Ohio. For sheer numbers though and the ability to recruit a great deal of talent in one state, CA/TX/FL are obviously where it is at.

Just my opinion.....

dragonsdaddy
08-30-2005, 11:37 AM
the ncaa champs argument is bordering utter absurdity due to the globalization of college football. there will never be a team, much less a championship caliber team that plays with only home-grown talent. there may be a propensity of locals on some teams, but you can't make the leap to hs supremacy because it just doesn't hold water.

DW@SunshinePreps
08-30-2005, 01:20 PM
When I make an argument about the quality of high school football in the state of Florida, pointing to the success of the Florida schools and other schools who have recruited heavily out of our state would be one way of making my point. For example, the year Ohio State beat Miami for their national championship, a great deal of their success was in part due to their Florida talent. Andre Johnson wasn't shut down one game his final year in college until he went up against Chris Gamble (FL talent) in the championship game. About 8 starters on the Ohio State team were Florida talents.

It is just my opinion that this helps an argument being made for Florida.

DW@SunshinePreps
08-30-2005, 01:28 PM
I feel college is a good place to start comparing because it is at this time that we begin to see how the talents start stacking up against each other. In HS it is impossible in my opinion to get a gauge on how HS teams stack up against each other if they do not pay against eah other. Sure HS all star games are great and Florida has a winning record against every state they have gone against but it does not tell you the bigger picture. Now if HS had some sort of playoff system which is not possible, then you could look at how some of the states best stacked up against each other. This is why I feel college is the first true gauge on how much quality a state produces.

Just my thoughts....

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 01:58 PM
I am of the opinion that the egos here in Texas over football (or anything for that matter) are over inflated.

There is some good talent here. Some real good talent. But I don't really think it is all that much more than what it is in any other state that fields pretty good teams.

I think Texas has more mediocre 5A teams than any other state though. That would stand to reason since Texas is the largest state. I agree with whomever said it about EastTexas football being supurb. If it weren't for the Eastern and Northern parts of Texas, football here would be overlooked like it is almost everywhere else in the country.

I don't think of Louisiana as a football state either. The fans are about as rabid as anywhere else, but the teams are mediocre. They run the ball. They have substandard coaches (generally) and think they are better than what they are. (generally)


I think in the end, we end up with a few really good teams from a few states and the rest are just that, the rest.

I don't think of football past high school because that when football turns into the future and its not played for fun anymore. Very few players in the NFL play because they love the game. Most are looking for a way to make a check and feel important because they cant read and do basic math.hahahaha..


No really. I just find these discussions funny. It all depends on what state you are in as to how the discussion will go. In Ca. they think they are on top. In La, they think that. In Fla. they think they are the best. Pick a state and they all think it. Except Wyoming. I think they know they suck and have accepted it. :)

DW@SunshinePreps
08-30-2005, 02:13 PM
Good post.

I would disagree with you however on not watching guys past high school. While there are plenty of Terrell Owens out there, there are way more guys who play this game not only for the money but also for the passion they have to play the game. Sure guys like Ray Lewis, Zach Thomas, and others make a ton of cash but anyone watching what those guys do on the football field know it is more than just money that drives them towards excellence.

For every 1 guy you name that is in it for the money, I bet I could name 2 who would play it for the love of the game.

implacable44
08-30-2005, 02:27 PM
Texas is the largest state? I know we have a tendency to just include MExico but we can't - they just come here and steal our jobs and commit crimes. Texas has a land mass of 261,797 sq. miles - while Alaska has a land mass of 571,951 sq. miles.

as far as population goes - well California of course has the most people - roughly 35 or 36 million while Texas has around 4 million.

Florida of course has far more people than Texas at 17.5 million and you could always throw New York in there if you were to say that the amount of people should correlate to better players - a la the judson theory I read on here so often because NY has a startling 19.5 million people.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 03:02 PM
I dont really consider Alaska as a state. They are line an annex or something to me..hahaha...

Dont want to get me started on the whole Mexico thing. I think you and me would agree on that. There may indeed be other states with more population, but on the whole, Texas in in the top 10 on the population scale.

I don't really think population has all that much to do with it really though. I mean, I look at Shreveport (Louisiana) that has all the publics and a few privates and nobody can hang with ECA. A school with the enrollment of a 1A school. They dont have a bunch of NFL kids or giants. They are just coached really really well and want to play the game.
They are coached on a level that most of the other schools in the state are not. I think the same could be said for the top 10 teams in Texas. They are coached really well and the kids really want to play the game.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 04:46 PM
I dont really consider Alaska as a state. They are line an annex or something to me..hahaha...

Dont want to get me started on the whole Mexico thing. I think you and me would agree on that. There may indeed be other states with more population, but on the whole, Texas in in the top 10 on the population scale.

I don't really think population has all that much to do with it really though. I mean, I look at Shreveport (Louisiana) that has all the publics and a few privates and nobody can hang with ECA. A school with the enrollment of a 1A school. They dont have a bunch of NFL kids or giants. They are just coached really really well and want to play the game.
They are coached on a level that most of the other schools in the state are not. I think the same could be said for the top 10 teams in Texas. They are coached really well and the kids really want to play the game.

I've argued this for years.. I've seen alot of football from (Texas, born & raised) thru California, Virginia, Florida, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Alabama, Ga. I've seen State Championship games from about 20 States on DVD and ect for years now.

If you took the top 60 National High school teams (Legit 60) there would be:

Texas= 12-15 teams
Cal = 5 teams
LA = 4 teams
Okla = 2 teams
Ark = 2 teams
Miss = 2 teams
Ala = 2 teams
Fla = 5 teams
GA = 3 teams
S.C = 2 team
NC = 2 team
Tn = 1 team
Ohio = 5 teams
NV = 1 team
AZ = 1 team
Wash. = 2 team
HW = 1 team

There is about 7 or so more teams scattered around the country that could say they honestly belong in the National Top 60. (Legit 60).

I have no doubt that Texas would have on average about 12 to 15 of those National Top #60 High school teams annually.

The biggest thing that seperates Texas over "EVERY" other State is its DEPTH of quality teams.

Teams Texas #16 thru #30 aint that far behind Texas #1-#15 many years.

No State has the quality of Depth of talanted (well coached) teams like Texas. I'm a 100% believer of that from what I've seen in PERSON and on DVD over the last 7 years.

PS. The other note.. Many of those other State teams are PRIVATE schools , but in Texas its done with Public schools which makes it even more legit in my opinion.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 05:45 PM
What is it that makes a private school illegitimate?

To me, that kind of thinking is kind of odd. I mean, when you are pulling players from the 5a pool with publics. The privates are pulling students from a much smaller (usually 1A or 2A) pool.

To me, it really doesnt matter public or private. If you're good, you're good. If you arent, then I guess you just get beat everyweek.

I honestly would have to contest your numbers about Texas schools simply on the fact that I have seen a few Texas teams play some games and I havent seen more than 2 or 3 that were really just bad to the bone.
And by that, I mean any more bad to the bone than any other school i've seen play from any other state.

Inflated egos...

Which is fine as long as your arent from canada.

zippy
08-30-2005, 05:46 PM
I understand your point, and it is correct. One thing you have to consider is what if the NCAA had a draft? The best player would most likely go #1. The pre-draft predictions are always very close to the acual event. There is no way to compare a QB with a OL, or WR with a DL, but there has to be some sort of ranking to the quality of the player. This is all we have to use, and I just presented the numbers. The outcome may not be what we want it to be, but it is what it is.




Zippy, you are taking us so deep inside the numbers I don't know how to find your way back out. I really do think that analyzing top ten lists and top 100 lists can give you the answer as too the best talent producing state. The rankings systems are far too subjective.

How do you determine who is "better" between a top- tier quarterback and an offensive lineman? TD passes are a sexier statistic than pancake blocks, but colege coaches need both. How much difference is there, really, between the number 10 and number 11 players according to Rivals.com? Or, for that matter 100 and 101? What if Texas had that number 101 player, thereby giving us 12 players in the top 101? (I always felt bad for number 101.) Would that push ahead of California? True, Florida has 5,6, and 7, but what if Texashad the 9, 11, 12, 13? How would that put us in the rankings?

The fact of the matter is, the there is often very little qualitative difference between any of the top 50 players in the nation, with the possible exception of the truly outstanding players in perhaps the top 2-3 spots. (Which are nearly always hogged by "glamour" position players- QB's, RB's, WR's). All of them are outstanding athletes, any college coach would salivate at the thought of landing a top 50 player for his team. Often a players stock can rise because of the number of great players available at his position-- if it is not a good year for LB's-- then the ones that are out there get a lot of press, with less competion to detract attention.

I still think the best yardstick is number of Division 1- college scholarships awarded, although it too is imperfect. Instead of a world of questionable 40 times, benc presses, and padded stats, one question is answered-- were there collge coaches willing to give a kid a free ride to college in exchange for his skills at football, or not? (Texas nearly always wins this one).

All in all though, all the quibbiling and number crunching won't give you an answer. The big three-- Fla, Cali, and Texas-- produce an abundance of football talent, a testament to their huge populations and the popularity of the sport. Who is number 1-- too close to call, ever, if you are honest about it.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Yes, ranking the players. Good, OK, or NOT GOOD.

This is high school ball we are talking about. Not college or nfl.


There is point where you can over examine anything to the point of being absurd.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 06:01 PM
What is it that makes a private school illegitimate?

To me, that kind of thinking is kind of odd. I mean, when you are pulling players from the 5a pool with publics. The privates are pulling students from a much smaller (usually 1A or 2A) pool.

To me, it really doesnt matter public or private. If you're good, you're good. If you arent, then I guess you just get beat everyweek.

I honestly would have to contest your numbers about Texas schools simply on the fact that I have seen a few Texas teams play some games and I havent seen more than 2 or 3 that were really just bad to the bone.
And by that, I mean any more bad to the bone than any other school i've seen play from any other state.

Inflated egos...

Which is fine as long as your arent from canada.

You can call it inflated egos if you like. I think its pretty much on par.

Louisiana has West Monroe, Evangel, John Curtis and then there is usually one other that steps up each year and is very good.

In Texas there is 12 to 15 teams that are on par with those 4 Louisiana powerhouse teams. Period.

West Monroe, Evangel, John Curtis and that 4th team "DOMINATE" everyone in Louisiana. DOMINATE !!! They pull their starters out near the end of the 3rd QT because they're usually up by 35 or 40pts.

I read your post how some Louisiana 3A's could probably beat Leander and Austin Westlake. All I can say is "Hahahaha" I'm freaking laughing !! There isnt one freaking Louisiana 3A team that would beat either one of those Texas 5A teams.

Too me that "EGO" when you can say that some of the Louisiana 3A's would beat Leander & Austin Westlake.

West Monroe and ECA could beat Longview and it wont mean squat to me honestly. Because Longview is one of the Texas Top #15 and WM and ECA or #1 and #2 in Louisiana just like they are 100% of the time.

Just hope that little Texas 4A (Texas High) doesnt beat ECA. Last years 9-2 win for ECA wasnt that impressive over a Texas 4A team. Wasnt ECA the Louisiana 5A State Champs !!!!!???

PRIVATE SCHOOLS: Your from a state (Louisiana) where Private schools is the norm in sports. Texas they arent. It is 100% clear that Private Schools enjoy certain benefits that Publics dont.

I'll go ahead and say it now.. "RECRUITING !!!" Dont give me there no proof stuff either. ECA "attracts" bigtime football players (D-1A caliber) to their program. They give these kids "FINANCIAL AID" to come to the school because they are "bigtime athletes !!" Now put 1+1 togehter please.

Financial Aid + athlete = RECRUITING !!

I'll give you the definition of athletic scholarship if you like....

That's what the Private schools enjoy over the publics. Peace and OUt.

PS. I also think its funny how you claim that Private schools get thier athletes from 1A, 2A and 3A level teams. Wow..

If you go and "ATTRACT" ie. RECRUIT some of the top athletes off of Jasper, Burkeville, Newton and some of the other schools in the area.. Guess what ? You've got a powerhouse team (with coaching). Hmmmm, can anyone say EVANGEL.

ThEgReAtOnE
08-30-2005, 06:40 PM
Read it like this....
Texas has far more dominant schools.
Texas has more districts, and teams than any other state.
Texas has, on average, bigger athletes, faster athletes and stronger athletes.
Texas has more kids miss out on Div-1 Scholarships than any other state(Respectively)
Texas has a 5A division...84% of the other states don't.

AND...over 75% of the top Texas High School football players sign to play college football in other states...i.e., Oklahoma, Nebraska, Florida State, Miami, Florida, LSU, Alabama, Notre Dame, and Penn State. (Of whom all snatch our top talent on a regular basis.)

Consider 3 of the top 5 Heisman Trophy candidates are from Texas...

...Adrian Peterson, Vincent Young, and Drew Tate...but only one of those three plays in Texas. (Ironically at Texas) But both Matt Leinhardt and Reggie Bush are from California, and they play college in California.

JUST IMAGINE WHAT TEXAS COLLEGES COULD DO IF WE KEPT OUR ATHLETES AT HOME. (Honestly I can't talk I was recruited heavenly by Oklahoma, Miami and Penn State, and I was itching to leave the state. Texas and Texas A&M was there, but I shunned them.)

See my point!!?

Half our top athletes can't academically get eligible, and if they do get scholarships it's out of state.

As far as national high school football rankings are concerned, I would easily put, at least 15-20 of the Top 25, from Texas. Other than Fla, Cali, Miss, Tenn and LA...if you lined any other states top 10 up against Texas Top 10...there would be significant blow-outs!!

TEXAS IS FOOTBALL!!!!

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 06:59 PM
Read it like this....
Texas has far more dominant schools.
Texas has more districts, and teams than any other state.
Texas has, on average, bigger athletes, faster athletes and stronger athletes.
Texas has more kids miss out on Div-1 Scholarships than any other state(Respectively)
Texas has a 5A division...84% of the other states don't.

AND...over 75% of the top Texas High School football players sign to play college football in other states...i.e., Oklahoma, Nebraska, Florida State, Miami, Florida, LSU, Alabama, Notre Dame, and Penn State. (Of whom all snatch our top talent on a regular basis.)

Consider 3 of the top 5 Heisman Trophy candidates are from Texas...

...Adrian Peterson, Vincent Young, and Drew Tate...but only one of those three plays in Texas. (Ironically at Texas) But both Matt Leinhardt and Reggie Bush are from California, and they play college in California.

JUST IMAGINE WHAT TEXAS COLLEGES COULD DO IF WE KEPT OUR ATHLETES AT HOME. (Honestly I can't talk I was recruited heavenly by Oklahoma, Miami and Penn State, and I was itching to leave the state. Texas and Texas A&M was there, but I shunned them.)

See my point!!?

Half our top athletes can't academically get eligible, and if they do get scholarships it's out of state.

As far as national high school football rankings are concerned, I would easily put, at least 15-20 of the Top 25, from Texas. Other than Fla, Cali, Miss, Tenn and LA...if you lined any other states top 10 up against Texas Top 10...there would be significant blow-outs!!

TEXAS IS FOOTBALL!!!!

I couldnt of said it any better. I do think their is about #12-15 Texas teams that would be in the National Top 60 (Legit 60),, not some hokey USA Today poll.

Second.. What really seperates Texas from all other States is its great depth of quality teams.

Texas #1-#15 pretty much even.
Texas #16-#30 nip at their heel.

If you put Texas #16 thru #30 up against ANY OTHER STATES #16 -#30. The Texas teams would make fish chum out of them bad.

Texas #16 up against Cali #16= blowout for the Texas team.

Texas #16 up against Fla #16 = blowout for the Texas team.

Texas #16 up against Ohio #16= blowout for the Texas team.

Texas #16 up against Louisiana #16 = blowout for the Texas team.

100% no doubt about it !!!

zippy
08-30-2005, 07:33 PM
Accually it is college players we are ranking here. That is the reason for the ranking.



Yes, ranking the players. Good, OK, or NOT GOOD.

This is high school ball we are talking about. Not college or nfl.


There is point where you can over examine anything to the point of being absurd.

zippy
08-30-2005, 07:41 PM
Please dont take my post the wrong way, all I did was take the 100 best high school-next year college players (would be this years recruits) and break down the numbers. I am not saying Texas football in not better than any other state. I know Texas football is better as a whole. I know nobody can match the top 25 teams in Texas. This was about talent produced in each state. Like it or not, out of the top 100, Texas was not #1 in any section using this information. I didnt make up the top 100 that I used, but I agree with most of it. I assume that the college teams that ended up taking these players did as well. There were heated battles to get some of these kids (example being the #2 ranked Ryan Perrilloux) So please dont get too upset with the post, its not saying that Texas does not have the best teams in high school football by any means. Teams and Players are two different things.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 08:03 PM
Please dont take my post the wrong way, all I did was take the 100 best high school-next year college players (would be this years recruits) and break down the numbers. I am not saying Texas football in not better than any other state. I know Texas football is better as a whole. I know nobody can match the top 25 teams in Texas. This was about talent produced in each state. Like it or not, out of the top 100, Texas was not #1 in any section using this information. I didnt make up the top 100 that I used, but I agree with most of it. I assume that the college teams that ended up taking these players did as well. There were heated battles to get some of these kids (example being the #2 ranked Ryan Perrilloux) So please dont get too upset with the post, its not saying that Texas does not have the best teams in high school football by any means. Teams and Players are two different things.

You know Zippy. I wouldnt get to wrapped up in all those player ranking stuff. Their fun to look at and ect but not really reality based .

I've seen alot of kids on so called "LIST" that werent even the best player on their own High school team because one or two kids "NOT ON A LIST" were better High schoolers.

Many of those kids on list make it because of thier "SIZE, SPEED and biggest of all (POTENTIAL)" at the next level. Key word.. "POTENTIAL."

I'm sure if I looked at the roughly 175 Texas players in the NFL right now. Probably 65% of them werent on some National 100 list or many of them werent even on the Texas Top 100 list their seniors year. But, their in the NFL now and getting "PAID" to play.

I dont think Drew Brees, L. Tomlinson, P. Holmes, K.Macardell, B. Waters, M. Coleman and several other Texas NFL Pro Bowl players were PREP National 100 players coming out of High school.

PS. I can also give you a list of many Texas National 100 Prep players that are looking for jobs now because they didnt even make it through college and never really made the 2-deep roster in college.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 08:18 PM
TexasFrog.
The only reason I will even address the "recruiting" issue is because you chose to bring it up. (for whatever reason)
All the little b.s. claims have been nothing more than that. CLAIMS. And blah blah blah on that subject because it's kind of stupid to me that some people refuse to understand that the "powers that be" are out to get ECA and if they were doing anything against the rules, they would have been outed by now.

You define recruiting however you care to define it. I could define it as a school opens and starts a football team. There! RECRUITING.

I never ECA draws from 1,2,3,10, or even 50A. They draw from the 5A district the school is in. Yes, they draw from all over too. Does everyone like it? nope. Is it legal by the standards set from the powers that be? Yep.
There has to be privates in Louisiana. That is the only way kids can go to school, play ball, get a scolorship to a decent college, and still be able to read. The public schools are failing. That is why people choose privates in the first place. MOST of the time. That's why my parents sent all of us to privates. And I would say that my grammer, math, and brain functions on a little higher level than most that went to publics in Louisiana.


I dont think it is ego at all when I say that I know some 3A's in La that could take Leander and/or Westlake. I think it's pretty much fact. 3A (for some reason) seems to be a little more aggressive over there.
I would bet that Bossier High, Springhill High, and Benton High (i think bossier may be 4A) could all take either of those teams. I think Haynesville (1A) could take Leander any Friday of the season. And would do it playing that boring running game.

I don't think ECA is ranked in the top in La??? I don't think they are currently worried about Longview or Texas High. They are focused on Springdale right now as that would be a much bigger win.

I really wasnt ever intending on comparing any ECA team to any Texas team. I do think that ECA could take most of the Texas 5A's. I think WestMonroe could do it too. I was just stating my opinion that I think there are a lot of (self) inflated egos with some teams over here.
To me, it is proven when lots of teams here wont go out of state and play nationally ranked teams. And, I know the whole arguement of "we dont have to go anywhere to get competition". I think that is a cop out. If a team is really that good, they will have no problem going out and backing it up. I do also realize that not every team has the money to do that. I know that not every team could do it very often. I see Longiew pretty much say "hey, we'll play anybody. So bring it." That says a lot about Longview as a team. Especially when they go and have the Longview school of Football.


Anyway, I really dont want to argue about this anymore.. It is kind of pointless really and it is getting way off the discussion.

Which is, Texas teams are good. Are they just so much better than the rest of the country? NOPE. But they are pretty darn good.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 08:36 PM
TexasFrog.
The only reason I will even address the "recruiting" issue is because you chose to bring it up. (for whatever reason)
All the little b.s. claims have been nothing more than that. CLAIMS. And blah blah blah on that subject because it's kind of stupid to me that some people refuse to understand that the "powers that be" are out to get ECA and if they were doing anything against the rules, they would have been outed by now.

You define recruiting however you care to define it. I could define it as a school opens and starts a football team. There! RECRUITING.

I never ECA draws from 1,2,3,10, or even 50A. They draw from the 5A district the school is in. Yes, they draw from all over too. Does everyone like it? nope. Is it legal by the standards set from the powers that be? Yep.
There has to be privates in Louisiana. That is the only way kids can go to school, play ball, get a scolorship to a decent college, and still be able to read. The public schools are failing. That is why people choose privates in the first place. MOST of the time. That's why my parents sent all of us to privates. And I would say that my grammer, math, and brain functions on a little higher level than most that went to publics in Louisiana.


I dont think it is ego at all when I say that I know some 3A's in La that could take Leander and/or Westlake. I think it's pretty much fact. 3A (for some reason) seems to be a little more aggressive over there.
I would bet that Bossier High, Springhill High, and Benton High (i think bossier may be 4A) could all take either of those teams. I think Haynesville (1A) could take Leander any Friday of the season. And would do it playing that boring running game.

I don't think ECA is ranked in the top in La??? I don't think they are currently worried about Longview or Texas High. They are focused on Springdale right now as that would be a much bigger win.

I really wasnt ever intending on comparing any ECA team to any Texas team. I do think that ECA could take most of the Texas 5A's. I think WestMonroe could do it too. I was just stating my opinion that I think there are a lot of (self) inflated egos with some teams over here.
To me, it is proven when lots of teams here wont go out of state and play nationally ranked teams. And, I know the whole arguement of "we dont have to go anywhere to get competition". I think that is a cop out. If a team is really that good, they will have no problem going out and backing it up. I do also realize that not every team has the money to do that. I know that not every team could do it very often. I see Longiew pretty much say "hey, we'll play anybody. So bring it." That says a lot about Longview as a team. Especially when they go and have the Longview school of Football.


Anyway, I really dont want to argue about this anymore.. It is kind of pointless really and it is getting way off the discussion.

Which is, Texas teams are good. Are they just so much better than the rest of the country? NOPE. But they are pretty darn good.

What the heck are you talking about ??

(DING DING) Evangel has been beaten like 4 or so years in a row by Texas teams (Longview, Abilene High) that didnt win State or even play for State.

Hmmmm????

Springdale is a bigger game for ECA. That's great. Then Longview and Texas High should be pushovers for them since it isnt really a big game for them. Can someone say "EGO."

West Monroe.. we'll see how they look this week against Longview who had everything and more given to them by a Texas 4A (Marshall).

By the way.. name me all of these so called Louisiana teams that play all of these nationally ranked Out-of-state teams ? Like to see the awesome list?

SHOW ME THE LIST ???

I can think of a few games.

ECA got smoked by DLS (California Champs),, ECA got beat by Hoover, ECA (Alabama champs) beat Rockhurst (Missouri 2nd place), ECA got beat by Longview x 3 (Not Texas Champs) several times. West Monroe beat Midland Lee, West Monroe beat JT, JT beat West Monroe. Hmmm.

By the way in case you've forgotten: ECA and West Monroe along with John Curtis are the top teams in Louisiana (bar none) 99.9% of the time.

I'm going to be sure to show you several of the Texas 3A and 4A games against Louisiana 3A and 4A teams. In fact I'm going to find some of the past several years results for ya. I'm pretty certain is like 90% win ratio for the Texas teams.

But, you're claiming some Louisiana 3A can beat Leander & Austin Westlake. cough, cough.. OK !!! You can take those Louisiana Rose colored glasses off anytime because that's a 100% JOKE.

The whole Private school thing... that's totally way way over your head !!

Seems like alot of you Private schools dudes suffer from the same "Anti-recruiting" syndromes.

Again.. Financial Aid + athlete = RECRUITING.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 09:02 PM
TexasFrog.

ECA has been beaten 3 years in a row by Longview. Abilene beat them one time they played.
SpringDale is a bigger game for ECA because it is THIS weeks game. And Sprindale is ranked higher in most polls. (if you care about that kind of thing)
Higher than Longview. Higher than ECA. So it would be a huge win for them.. Don't get me wrong though. Beating would Longview would be a HUGE win too. But to focus on a game some 3 weeks away is kinda dumb.

Also, I never suggested WestMonroe could or would be Longiew. I dont think they have the ability to beat Longview.

Why are you dragging Louisiana schools into all of this national schedule thing. I dont think Louisiana schools are all that good. I never have thought that. I was saying back when ECA was a 1A school the first time that they would have to get out of Louisiana to get some real competition.

You have taken what I said in some unknown direction. The only reason I mentioned Louisiana schools other than ECA was that I know there are some 3 and 4A schools that could beat Leander and Westlake.

ECA has beaten Longview before this 3 game losing streak. And they beat Rockhurst (missouri). And they beat Lufkin. And they beat Dallas Carter. And they beat CretinDuram (minnesota). and they beat some SouthCarolina school. They beat Suwannee (LiveOak Florida). They own WestMonroe. They beat JohnCurtis. All nationally ranked teams.


The whole private school thing is not at all over my head. The public school whiners back home have beat that dead dog for years.

Recruiting. You just cant let it go can you? I'm not even going to address it because you are going to think what you think. I did take the time to look the word up in my dictionary (Websters New World) and it said nothing about ECA or football. I'll just leave it at that.

Oh yeah. I'm not saying some La 3A could beat Leander and Westlake. I am saying a few. And some 4A's too. I could be wrong because you never really know until the clock is at 00:00. But I don't think I am.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 09:04 PM
TexasFrog.
The only reason I will even address the "recruiting" issue is because you chose to bring it up. (for whatever reason)
All the little b.s. claims have been nothing more than that. CLAIMS. And blah blah blah on that subject because it's kind of stupid to me that some people refuse to understand that the "powers that be" are out to get ECA and if they were doing anything against the rules, they would have been outed by now.

You define recruiting however you care to define it. I could define it as a school opens and starts a football team. There! RECRUITING.

I never ECA draws from 1,2,3,10, or even 50A. They draw from the 5A district the school is in. Yes, they draw from all over too. Does everyone like it? nope. Is it legal by the standards set from the powers that be? Yep.
There has to be privates in Louisiana. That is the only way kids can go to school, play ball, get a scolorship to a decent college, and still be able to read. The public schools are failing. That is why people choose privates in the first place. MOST of the time. That's why my parents sent all of us to privates. And I would say that my grammer, math, and brain functions on a little higher level than most that went to publics in Louisiana.


I dont think it is ego at all when I say that I know some 3A's in La that could take Leander and/or Westlake. I think it's pretty much fact. 3A (for some reason) seems to be a little more aggressive over there.
I would bet that Bossier High, Springhill High, and Benton High (i think bossier may be 4A) could all take either of those teams. I think Haynesville (1A) could take Leander any Friday of the season. And would do it playing that boring running game.

I don't think ECA is ranked in the top in La??? I don't think they are currently worried about Longview or Texas High. They are focused on Springdale right now as that would be a much bigger win.

I really wasnt ever intending on comparing any ECA team to any Texas team. I do think that ECA could take most of the Texas 5A's. I think WestMonroe could do it too. I was just stating my opinion that I think there are a lot of (self) inflated egos with some teams over here.
To me, it is proven when lots of teams here wont go out of state and play nationally ranked teams. And, I know the whole arguement of "we dont have to go anywhere to get competition". I think that is a cop out. If a team is really that good, they will have no problem going out and backing it up. I do also realize that not every team has the money to do that. I know that not every team could do it very often. I see Longiew pretty much say "hey, we'll play anybody. So bring it." That says a lot about Longview as a team. Especially when they go and have the Longview school of Football.


Anyway, I really dont want to argue about this anymore.. It is kind of pointless really and it is getting way off the discussion.

Which is, Texas teams are good. Are they just so much better than the rest of the country? NOPE. But they are pretty darn good.

I know its all made up... its a lie .. Dude, I heard Dt-Steve Lee fully explain how he was invited to an Evangel Practice to check the football team out. The next thing you know his on the team. He wasnt paying that ECA tuition either.

His by far the only exception for Evangel. You guys kill me man with this "we do it on the straight up and up attitude." Its the straight up and up in Louisiana,,, it wouldnt fly for one mili-second in Texas. The UIL would shut that down in a heartbeat !!

You know... I call it "wide open door policy and that door is really open if you just happen to be a very good athlete."

You also miss the point about the teams. I even stated that Louisiana has about 4 teams ( ECA, West Monroe, John Curtis, and usually a 4th) that can play with anyone in the nation.

In Texas I believe their is about 15 Texas teams that can play with anyone in the nation.


Louisiana has about 4 national caliber teams.. Texas has about 12 to 15 each year.

PS. I know who ECA has played. I've been to several of those games and have been following ECA for about 7 years. I know the program and even know some people that are involved in the program.

I just laugh when you make a comment .. Texas teams dont play non-Tx powers.

Lets see.. Tyler Lee just played Hollywood-Chaminde (natioanlly recognized program), REL is playing Colerain , Oh (Nationally program), Midland lee is playing Clovis East (one of Cali best), Abilene is playing Rockhurst, Mo, plus the Tx vs LA games.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 09:13 PM
It's up&up in Louisiana. The state where ECA is located. Why should every other state do it like they do here?

As for your open door theory. It is open to anyone that wants to go there. Not just sports folks. My sister didnt pay to go there. My X wife didnt pay to go there. neither were sports people. There are lots of people that go to that school that have nothing to do with sports.
I've been around the school long enough to know if things werent nice and legal. By the way, did Steve Lee mention that he lived in Huntington school district? That would be the same district as ECA. Odd he didnt mention that huh? Yes, I know that to be fact because I know the guy.


There are about 2 good teams capable of playing national schedules. ECA and (somehow) WestMonroe.
Are there teams in Texas that could? sure. Are there 15? I guess. Would they dominate a national schedule? nope. But they would be competitive.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 10:00 PM
It's up&up in Louisiana. The state where ECA is located. Why should every other state do it like they do here?

As for your open door theory. It is open to anyone that wants to go there. Not just sports folks. My sister didnt pay to go there. My X wife didnt pay to go there. neither were sports people. There are lots of people that go to that school that have nothing to do with sports.
I've been around the school long enough to know if things werent nice and legal. By the way, did Steve Lee mention that he lived in Huntington school district? That would be the same district as ECA. Odd he didnt mention that huh? Yes, I know that to be fact because I know the guy.


There are about 2 good teams capable of playing national schedules. ECA and (somehow) WestMonroe.
Are there teams in Texas that could? sure. Are there 15? I guess. Would they dominate a national schedule? nope. But they would be competitive.

ECA and WM wouldnt dominate a national schedule either. That's my point !
I would say you could put John Curtis in there also.

In Texas there is probably on an average year about 12 to 15 teams on the same par with ECA , WM and John Curtis.

If you put those 12 to 15 Texas teams and those 3 Louisiana teams in a pot and stirred it up. You would get a different champion almost every time. The competition level is about the same on most years with those teams.

I think you could go around the nation (AMERICA) and get about 45 other teams dotting the nation (from several States) that would fit right in with those 12-15 Texas teams and those 3-4 Louisiana teams.

My argument from what I've seen over the years is that Texas has the most elite teams over other States (12-15). I think California has about 6 , LA has 4, Fla has about 5, Ohio has about 5, Ala has 2, Oklahoma has 2, Arkansas has 2 and so forth.

Also, what Texas has over every State is great Depth. Texas teams #16-#30 are not far behind #1-#15.

No State (NONE) has the quality of depth like Texas. Its pretty much a 100% fact. If you want to call it EGO that great.

I did a (G.A) when I was in college. One of the college coaches was from Florida. He played ball at Clemson. He also played against Deion Sanders a few times. His claim to fame is he got burnt by Deion on national tv.

He scouted Texas High schools for years. We got on the topic one day about High school football and Teams and ect. Now, this is a guy that really knows football that played it at a very high level (NFL for awhile) and is from Florida. He told me, " Texas is Texas, its the best High school football in America. There are so many great teams here loaded with great talent."

I've heard this from several people (in football) and many of them arent Texas natives. I've traveled the nation myself for years (due to work) and I had the great oppurtunity to see alot of HS football across the nation in several States. (Even State title games in person).

I can tell you hands down that the overall caliber of play in Texas is second to none. If you want to say , "well you Texas people have EGO's." You better go tell alot of none Texans that also that really know quality football when they see it.

Dont worry bro.. I have a good friend in Alabama. He saw Southlake Carroll play last season and claimed they wouldnt even be a top #10 in Bama.

zippy
08-30-2005, 10:12 PM
Your right, they are just rankings, but they are also some of the best players in the nation going into college. Is there a better way to find out what I did? Do college recruiting teams just look at these for fun? You dont think they use these rankings to find prospects? Yea, potential playes a big role, but are you saying that is not part of a great player at any level? That factors into a great player. As for LaDaimian Tomlinson he didnt have a breakout year in college until his Jr year. He didnt even start in high school until his SR year (which was very good) So that is a case where someone might not be ranked high, because they have done what others (that are ranked high) have done 2-3 years in a row. As for top 100 kids not making it, Im not surprised. There are grades, crime, attitude, family problems, money, and a whole list of factors that might keep them from doing well in college. All of your points are valid, and like I said, I used what I had to base these numbers on. If there are Texas players that I missed due to the issues you stated, are there not kids from Cali, Fl, and other top producing states in the same position? I challenge you to produce a list of YOUR top 100 in the nation. What we see are not just Tx kids, but just the Tx kids in the area we are in. I am not about to dismiss a kids talent just because I have never seen him play. Is there another way that I can get a good estimate on the talent in each state out of HS? When I choose to try to find it a while back, the top 100 lists were all I could think of to use.





You know Zippy. I wouldnt get to wrapped up in all those player ranking stuff. Their fun to look at and ect but not really reality based .

I've seen alot of kids on so called "LIST" that werent even the best player on their own High school team because one or two kids "NOT ON A LIST" were better High schoolers.

Many of those kids on list make it because of thier "SIZE, SPEED and biggest of all (POTENTIAL)" at the next level. Key word.. "POTENTIAL."

I'm sure if I looked at the roughly 175 Texas players in the NFL right now. Probably 65% of them werent on some National 100 list or many of them werent even on the Texas Top 100 list their seniors year. But, their in the NFL now and getting "PAID" to play.

I dont think Drew Brees, L. Tomlinson, P. Holmes, K.Macardell, B. Waters, M. Coleman and several other Texas NFL Pro Bowl players were PREP National 100 players coming out of High school.

PS. I can also give you a list of many Texas National 100 Prep players that are looking for jobs now because they didnt even make it through college and never really made the 2-deep roster in college.

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 10:16 PM
Really, I am not worried about it at all. I agree, there are some Texas teams that are good enough to be tossed in with some programs from other states.

I dont think there are more here in Texas than other states though. That was my point.

It really doesnt matter anyway. This seasons schedules are out and the the season has started.

Besides.. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.. no matter who wins, you're still ********. :D :D :D

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 10:26 PM
Your right, they are just rankings, but they are also some of the best players in the nation going into college. Is there a better way to find out what I did? Do college recruiting teams just look at these for fun? You dont think they use these rankings to find prospects? Yea, potential playes a big role, but are you saying that is not part of a great player at any level? That factors into a great player. As for LaDaimian Tomlinson he didnt have a breakout year in college until his Jr year. He didnt even start in high school until his SR year (which was very good) So that is a case where someone might not be ranked high, because they have done what others (that are ranked high) have done 2-3 years in a row. As for top 100 kids not making it, Im not surprised. There are grades, crime, attitude, family problems, money, and a whole list of factors that might keep them from doing well in college. All of your points are valid, and like I said, I used what I had to base these numbers on. If there are Texas players that I missed due to the issues you stated, are there not kids from Cali, Fl, and other top producing states in the same position? I challenge you to produce a list of YOUR top 100 in the nation. What we see are not just Tx kids, but just the Tx kids in the area we are in. I am not about to dismiss a kids talent just because I have never seen him play. Is there another way that I can get a good estimate on the talent in each state out of HS? When I choose to try to find it a while back, the top 100 lists were all I could think of to use.

That's part of the issue about list. No doubt all those players have the potential to be great if the keep developing their skills, growing and maturing and about 100 other things.

That's another point I want to make. There is alot of kids that dont make the list because they didnt get alot of playing time their 10th and 11th grade years because they had a pretty solid "stud" in front of them.

I think this season you'll see Tyler Lee's "RB' Jason williams rise up from basically nowhere to be a highly prized recruit. Along with about 20 to 30 other Texas players that really arent on many list right now.

College Coaches... they look at those list and recruiting tools. I've seen them do it first hand. But, alot of still comes down to summer camps and ect for them to throw an "OFFER" at a kid. Plus, they want to see them play his senior year for a few games.

Honestly the recruiting over the last 4 or so years has changed "light years" from the 70's, 80's and most of the 90's.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 10:28 PM
Really, I am not worried about it at all. I agree, there are some Texas teams that are good enough to be tossed in with some programs from other states.

I dont think there are more here in Texas than other states though. That was my point.

It really doesnt matter anyway. This seasons schedules are out and the the season has started.

Besides.. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.. no matter who wins, you're still ********. :D :D :D

Probably the biggest difference between me and you Redneck. I've seen many of the teams and competition from other States and honestly brother.. "You havent."

RidgePride
08-30-2005, 10:31 PM
He scouted Texas High schools for years. We got on the topic one day about High school football and Teams and ect. Now, this is a guy that really knows football that played it at a very high level (NFL for awhile) and is from Florida. He told me, " Texas is Texas, its the best High school football in America. There are so many great teams here loaded with great talent."

I know a coach that used to coach in Ohio that now coaches in Texas - I know it is Ironic but it is true -

I asked him about both states High school football teams.

He said Ohio has some good football, but does not compare to Texas Football.

That is the honest truth. This is coming from a varsity football coach.

Firebird
08-30-2005, 10:32 PM
Wow.... just wow.

I think I have seen some of the most ignorant posting ever here on this thread, most of it by Redneckn, but bar none the award goes to Implacable44 and his racist rant about Mexicans "here to steal our jobs and commit crimes." Why am I not surprised that the aptly named Redneckn is on the same page. Lets try these on for size, while we are at it... we'll play "fun with racism and stereotypes"

Southern Whites. All they do is congregate in rundown trailer parks and cook methamphetamines.

African Americans. All they do is have welfare babies and rob Asian convenience stores.

Asian people. All they do is practice math and rip off African Americans in inner city conveniece stores.

Really, moderators, why do you allow crap like Implaccable 44's post to stay up. All it does is lower the tone of conversation.


In my next post, I will address football related issues.

RidgePride
08-30-2005, 10:33 PM
Really, I am not worried about it at all. I agree, there are some Texas teams that are good enough to be tossed in with some programs from other states.

I dont think there are more here in Texas than other states though. That was my point.

It really doesnt matter anyway. This seasons schedules are out and the the season has started.

Besides.. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.. no matter who wins, you're still ********. :D :D :D


Texas by far has the most depth in high school football - Not necessarily talent wise but team wise.

zippy
08-30-2005, 10:36 PM
I think this season you'll see Tyler Lee's "RB' Jason williams rise up from basically nowhere to be a highly prized recruit. Along with about 20 to 30 other Texas players that really arent on many list right now.

College Coaches... they look at those list and recruiting tools. I've seen them do it first hand. But, alot of still comes down to summer camps and ect for them to throw an "OFFER" at a kid. Plus, they want to see them play his senior year for a few games.

Honestly the recruiting over the last 4 or so years has changed "light years" from the 70's, 80's and most of the 90's.[/QUOTE]

There will be 20-30 Texas players that might step up that are not on the list, there might be 20-30 from FL, and Cali as well. That is the point I was trying to make, why would this not even out in overall talent? Its impossible to tell, but as of right now, this is the only real way to judge.

I am interning at a college, and I know what they use. I helped with it for my first time just a few months ago. The summer camps do produce a lot of unknown talent, but when a kid is from California, and your school is in Florida, these lists come in handy, as well as video. I have been working at a smaller university, so these types of list come in real handy. We cant jump on a plane and look at every kid out there. Very valid points on your part, and as I have said, I just used the rankings that were given to me. Its the only way to rate it at the moment, fair or not fair.

zippy
08-30-2005, 10:39 PM
Whats sad, is if you have been watching the news lately, this might be a true statement. 9 meth labs busted IN ONE DAY in a small city? WOW. However one of them was in a very nice house.


Southern Whites. All they do is congregate in rundown trailer parks and cook methamphetamines.

zippy
08-30-2005, 10:43 PM
That is what I have been trying to say both with words and numbers. Nobody can beat Texas football teams top 25 vs top 25, but there is plenty of talent to compete and beat Tx. Example. Take the top 25 players from Cali, Fl, and Tx, put them on the same team, and see who would win the game. It will not be Tx every year.



Texas by far has the most depth in high school football - Not necessarily talent wise but team wise.

Firebird
08-30-2005, 10:44 PM
Redneckn, your attempts to claim that population doesn't matter are ludicrous. It is simple statistics. You are more likely to find more great athletes out of a random population of 5,000 (Big 5A school in TX) than you are to find in a random sample of 300 (3A school in TX.) There are other factors, of course, but generally speaking, that is the rule. That is why the UIL divided schools into divisions in the first place, as is obvious to anyone who understands math. (Glad you got that private school education, huh). There are of course, exceptions that usually prove the rule. ECA is one of those. No one here is claiming that ECA isn't a great football school. No one is claiming that they are not on the up and up according to LA rules. What we are saying is that you can't compare them to public schools in TX, who, for the most part, are stuck with the luck of the draw as far as talent is concerned. To say that ECA's recruiting efforts are not a huge factor in their success is simply absurd. A high school of its size that drew soley from the surrounding area would never acheive their level of success.

Coaching is of course a huge factor, but again, population is king. In TX, with a notable few exceptions, most coaches aim is to land a dream job at a 5a school. Why--- because any coach would love to have that talent pool and stage to work on. Therefore, most of the best coaches end up at big schools, again with exceptions such as GA Moore at Celina. It is easy to see this-- when a job at a 5a school opens up, applications from smaller school head coaches pour in, while 5a head coaches almost never try to move downward in classification willingly.

Firebird
08-30-2005, 10:50 PM
Zippy, the point I was trying to make is that it is impossible to judge who is "better" or produces more talent, much as we would like. From year to year, Florida, Texas and California dominate the lists of top 100 players, and dominate in number of athletes given scholarships. However, among them, the state that garners the most top 10 or top 50 rankings is pretty fluid, it is again generally the luck of the draw. What I am trying to say is, crunching the numbers might give you what looks like a "winner" but the whole ranking system it is based upon is really a house of cards.

zippy
08-30-2005, 11:01 PM
A house of cards that is not in Texas's favor year in and year out like some people (myself included until recently) think



Zippy, the point I was trying to make is that it is impossible to judge who is "better" or produces more talent, much as we would like. From year to year, Florida, Texas and California dominate the lists of top 100 players, and dominate in number of athletes given scholarships. However, among them, the state that garners the most top 10 or top 50 rankings is pretty fluid, it is again generally the luck of the draw. What I am trying to say is, crunching the numbers might give you what looks like a "winner" but the whole ranking system it is based upon is really a house of cards.

Firebird
08-30-2005, 11:03 PM
Take the following hypothetical scenario illustrating ranking fallibilty.

John and James Doe are twins who were seperated at birth but both ended up playing CB. They are absolutely equal in all of the measurable categories--height, weight, 40, BP, Squat, Shuttle, Vertical etc, etc.

John starred on a high profile winning team in SoCal. He caught 12 interceptions his junior year playing in a district that liked to air it out. He was surrounded by a solid line and linebacking core, so not many RB's made it into the backfield for him to tackle. In addition, the HC didn't blitz his CB's often, so his tackle total was low. Also, because his team was so deep, he didn't play much on special teams or offense. Due to an unfortunate home situation he has had several minor scrapes with the law and barely passed the SAT, and carries a low GPA. Some belive the media hype surrounding him has gone to his head. However, the level of competetion surrounding him leads coaches to believe he will have a far shorter adjustment and learning period in collge.

James starred on a mediocre 3a team in central Texas. The teams in his disctrict played smashmouth football and averaged maybe 8-10 passes a game, giving him a relatively low INT total (4). But, he racked up the solo tackles and sacks, since he was about the only defensive weapon in the arsenal. He also returned kicks and played a little WR every now and then. He had a stable and supportive family, and is regarded as a model citizen and scholar. The national magazines didn't make it out to his district, and coaches regard him as a coachable, team player. Some worry that he will take a long time to learn the college game and his lack of exp. defending the pass.

Now, tell me, who should be ranked higher, James or John.

You may think this exercise absurd, but in reality there are a slew of kids who share roughly the same physical gifts. (Size, speed, strength0. Often times ranking palce too much emphasis on surrounding factors that the athlete has no control over, and forget to emphasize things that the athlete does. They are fun, and a useful outline, but nothing to bet the farm on.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 11:13 PM
I think this season you'll see Tyler Lee's "RB' Jason williams rise up from basically nowhere to be a highly prized recruit. Along with about 20 to 30 other Texas players that really arent on many list right now.

College Coaches... they look at those list and recruiting tools. I've seen them do it first hand. But, alot of still comes down to summer camps and ect for them to throw an "OFFER" at a kid. Plus, they want to see them play his senior year for a few games.

Honestly the recruiting over the last 4 or so years has changed "light years" from the 70's, 80's and most of the 90's.

There will be 20-30 Texas players that might step up that are not on the list, there might be 20-30 from FL, and Cali as well. That is the point I was trying to make, why would this not even out in overall talent? Its impossible to tell, but as of right now, this is the only real way to judge.

I am interning at a college, and I know what they use. I helped with it for my first time just a few months ago. The summer camps do produce a lot of unknown talent, but when a kid is from California, and your school is in Florida, these lists come in handy, as well as video. I have been working at a smaller university, so these types of list come in real handy. We cant jump on a plane and look at every kid out there. Very valid points on your part, and as I have said, I just used the rankings that were given to me. Its the only way to rate it at the moment, fair or not fair.[/QUOTE]

I know a college coach (Head Coach at D-1A school) that wont offer a kid a "ship" until his seen two full game films on him.

I've seen him break that one time. He watched about 4 plays of a certain one kid and told the scout that covered that area to "offer" the kid.

He also looked right at me after that and said, " You have to be careful because you only have so many of those things "ships" to give away."

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 11:17 PM
Redneckn, your attempts to claim that population doesn't matter are ludicrous. It is simple statistics. You are more likely to find more great athletes out of a random population of 5,000 (Big 5A school in TX) than you are to find in a random sample of 300 (3A school in TX.) There are other factors, of course, but generally speaking, that is the rule. That is why the UIL divided schools into divisions in the first place, as is obvious to anyone who understands math. (Glad you got that private school education, huh). There are of course, exceptions that usually prove the rule. ECA is one of those. No one here is claiming that ECA isn't a great football school. No one is claiming that they are not on the up and up according to LA rules. What we are saying is that you can't compare them to public schools in TX, who, for the most part, are stuck with the luck of the draw as far as talent is concerned. To say that ECA's recruiting efforts are not a huge factor in their success is simply absurd. A high school of its size that drew soley from the surrounding area would never acheive their level of success.

Coaching is of course a huge factor, but again, population is king. In TX, with a notable few exceptions, most coaches aim is to land a dream job at a 5a school. Why--- because any coach would love to have that talent pool and stage to work on. Therefore, most of the best coaches end up at big schools, again with exceptions such as GA Moore at Celina. It is easy to see this-- when a job at a 5a school opens up, applications from smaller school head coaches pour in, while 5a head coaches almost never try to move downward in classification willingly.

I agree with you on almost everything you said except. There are alot of 5A coaches that will move down to lower level schools (3A) and (2A) to finish out their coaching careers. They want to go to a school that doesnt have the stress level of 5A.

They went to a 5A and did their thing. They got their 3 Higher years (for retirement purposes) and they want to slow down some.

Not saying you always see it but you see it some.

Firebird
08-30-2005, 11:29 PM
True Texas Frog, ( I like to see the coaches do it, actually). However, the movement is still heavily weighted the other way.

zippy
08-30-2005, 11:35 PM
Thats true, but sometimes from what I have learned, you have to take a chance. I do not plan to coach college when I am done, I am going straight back to HS football again when I get done here. A lot of it is because of this process. I like to take what I have and get the best from it, not compete to get what might or might not be the best. Who was this kid you are talking about? If you dont want to say thats fine.



There will be 20-30 Texas players that might step up that are not on the list, there might be 20-30 from FL, and Cali as well. That is the point I was trying to make, why would this not even out in overall talent? Its impossible to tell, but as of right now, this is the only real way to judge.

I am interning at a college, and I know what they use. I helped with it for my first time just a few months ago. The summer camps do produce a lot of unknown talent, but when a kid is from California, and your school is in Florida, these lists come in handy, as well as video. I have been working at a smaller university, so these types of list come in real handy. We cant jump on a plane and look at every kid out there. Very valid points on your part, and as I have said, I just used the rankings that were given to me. Its the only way to rate it at the moment, fair or not fair.

I know a college coach (Head Coach at D-1A school) that wont offer a kid a "ship" until his seen two full game films on him.

I've seen him break that one time. He watched about 4 plays of a certain one kid and told the scout that covered that area to "offer" the kid.

He also looked right at me after that and said, " You have to be careful because you only have so many of those things "ships" to give away."[/QUOTE]

Redneckn
08-30-2005, 11:40 PM
Gee. It was kinda busy while I was in the shower.
Let me try and wrap this up as painlessly as possible.

Firebird. Glad you enjoyed my post. I wish they had a little smiley face here to give you the "finger". :eek:
I never said that population had nothing at all to do with it. But it isnt everything. Look at Southwood High in Shreveport. They have a huge area to gather potential players from and they suck year in and year out. And it isnt because of the private schools there. They sucked before ECA and Calvary, they will continue to suck. They have suck coaching. And it may just be different over there. I didnt really every want to get into a big ECA discussion on this thread. Somebody just kept bringing it up.
I wasn't really trying to compare them to a Texas public. Or any public. All I was saying is that they are legit in La. They do not recruit (per La rules). And I hope they dominate their 3 game season because I support them no matter what.
And, I am still waiting to see some good Texas football.

TexasFrog. First thing: I am NOT your brother. Second thing. You're right. Nobody in America has a job where they travel around the UnitedStates except you. And nobody but you goes to watch games while they are out of town except you. I guess I managed to dream up all the states I've been to while working. Why do you think I'm in Austin. *ding ding ding* you got it. WORK...
You are just so hostile. You really shouldnt be that way. I mean, a guy like me could get you all worked up over nothing. In time, that blood pressure will catch up with you.

Zippy: You're a racist.


I think I got it all covered there. Or at least as much as possible. I still like coming here because y'all dont start with the name calling and crap like they do on some of the other boards I visit.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 11:45 PM
Gee. It was kinda busy while I was in the shower.
Let me try and wrap this up as painlessly as possible.

Firebird. Glad you enjoyed my post. I wish they had a little smiley face here to give you the "finger". :eek:
I never said that population had nothing at all to do with it. But it isnt everything. Look at Southwood High in Shreveport. They have a huge area to gather potential players from and they suck year in and year out. And it isnt because of the private schools there. They sucked before ECA and Calvary, they will continue to suck. They have suck coaching. And it may just be different over there. I didnt really every want to get into a big ECA discussion on this thread. Somebody just kept bringing it up.
I wasn't really trying to compare them to a Texas public. Or any public. All I was saying is that they are legit in La. They do not recruit (per La rules). And I hope they dominate their 3 game season because I support them no matter what.
And, I am still waiting to see some good Texas football.

TexasFrog. First thing: I am NOT your brother. Second thing. You're right. Nobody in America has a job where they travel around the UnitedStates except you. And nobody but you goes to watch games while they are out of town except you. I guess I managed to dream up all the states I've been to while working. Why do you think I'm in Austin. *ding ding ding* you got it. WORK...
You are just so hostile. You really shouldnt be that way. I mean, a guy like me could get you all worked up over nothing. In time, that blood pressure will catch up with you.

Zippy: You're a racist.


I think I got it all covered there. Or at least as much as possible. I still like coming here because y'all dont start with the name calling and crap like they do on some of the other boards I visit.

You're not my brother ?? Dang.. see ya brother !!!

PS. I watch my Blood Pressure thanks for caring BROTHER.

zippy
08-30-2005, 11:47 PM
A racist? How did you come to that conclusion? :confused: I am about to fall out of my chair, that is the funniest comment I have seen on this board. Was that just out of thin air?


Gee. It was kinda busy while I was in the shower.
Let me try and wrap this up as painlessly as possible.

Firebird. Glad you enjoyed my post. I wish they had a little smiley face here to give you the "finger". :eek:
I never said that population had nothing at all to do with it. But it isnt everything. Look at Southwood High in Shreveport. They have a huge area to gather potential players from and they suck year in and year out. And it isnt because of the private schools there. They sucked before ECA and Calvary, they will continue to suck. They have suck coaching. And it may just be different over there. I didnt really every want to get into a big ECA discussion on this thread. Somebody just kept bringing it up.
I wasn't really trying to compare them to a Texas public. Or any public. All I was saying is that they are legit in La. They do not recruit (per La rules). And I hope they dominate their 3 game season because I support them no matter what.
And, I am still waiting to see some good Texas football.

TexasFrog. First thing: I am NOT your brother. Second thing. You're right. Nobody in America has a job where they travel around the UnitedStates except you. And nobody but you goes to watch games while they are out of town except you. I guess I managed to dream up all the states I've been to while working. Why do you think I'm in Austin. *ding ding ding* you got it. WORK...
You are just so hostile. You really shouldnt be that way. I mean, a guy like me could get you all worked up over nothing. In time, that blood pressure will catch up with you.

Zippy: You're a racist.


I think I got it all covered there. Or at least as much as possible. I still like coming here because y'all dont start with the name calling and crap like they do on some of the other boards I visit.

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 11:48 PM
Gee. It was kinda busy while I was in the shower.
Let me try and wrap this up as painlessly as possible.

Firebird. Glad you enjoyed my post. I wish they had a little smiley face here to give you the "finger". :eek:
I never said that population had nothing at all to do with it. But it isnt everything. Look at Southwood High in Shreveport. They have a huge area to gather potential players from and they suck year in and year out. And it isnt because of the private schools there. They sucked before ECA and Calvary, they will continue to suck. They have suck coaching. And it may just be different over there. I didnt really every want to get into a big ECA discussion on this thread. Somebody just kept bringing it up.
I wasn't really trying to compare them to a Texas public. Or any public. All I was saying is that they are legit in La. They do not recruit (per La rules). And I hope they dominate their 3 game season because I support them no matter what.
And, I am still waiting to see some good Texas football.

TexasFrog. First thing: I am NOT your brother. Second thing. You're right. Nobody in America has a job where they travel around the UnitedStates except you. And nobody but you goes to watch games while they are out of town except you. I guess I managed to dream up all the states I've been to while working. Why do you think I'm in Austin. *ding ding ding* you got it. WORK...
You are just so hostile. You really shouldnt be that way. I mean, a guy like me could get you all worked up over nothing. In time, that blood pressure will catch up with you.

Zippy: You're a racist.


I think I got it all covered there. Or at least as much as possible. I still like coming here because y'all dont start with the name calling and crap like they do on some of the other boards I visit.

If you want to see some good football take your butt back to Louisiana and go watch some of that crappy 3A ball.

Go watch it with those Louisiana "Rose colored glasses" on also.

I really didnt care who won the Longview vs WM & ECA game before. Now I care alot.

God help you also if Texas High (4A) beats ECA. Especially since John Tyler just beat Texas High this past weekend.

Hmmm..

Texasfrog
08-30-2005, 11:56 PM
Gee. It was kinda busy while I was in the shower.
Let me try and wrap this up as painlessly as possible.

Firebird. Glad you enjoyed my post. I wish they had a little smiley face here to give you the "finger". :eek:
I never said that population had nothing at all to do with it. But it isnt everything. Look at Southwood High in Shreveport. They have a huge area to gather potential players from and they suck year in and year out. And it isnt because of the private schools there. They sucked before ECA and Calvary, they will continue to suck. They have suck coaching. And it may just be different over there. I didnt really every want to get into a big ECA discussion on this thread. Somebody just kept bringing it up.
I wasn't really trying to compare them to a Texas public. Or any public. All I was saying is that they are legit in La. They do not recruit (per La rules). And I hope they dominate their 3 game season because I support them no matter what.
And, I am still waiting to see some good Texas football.

TexasFrog. First thing: I am NOT your brother. Second thing. You're right. Nobody in America has a job where they travel around the UnitedStates except you. And nobody but you goes to watch games while they are out of town except you. I guess I managed to dream up all the states I've been to while working. Why do you think I'm in Austin. *ding ding ding* you got it. WORK...
You are just so hostile. You really shouldnt be that way. I mean, a guy like me could get you all worked up over nothing. In time, that blood pressure will catch up with you.

Zippy: You're a racist.


I think I got it all covered there. Or at least as much as possible. I still like coming here because y'all dont start with the name calling and crap like they do on some of the other boards I visit.

Wow.. Louisiana and Texas. Dang your a well traveled fella. I dont blame you coming to Texas looking for a job.

Second, when you been to 48 States and right at about 35 countries around the World.. "Come talk to me." Your new name is La/Tx for that great traveling youve done back and forth across the Sabine.

Firebird
08-31-2005, 12:00 AM
Redneckn

I also have to laugh at how great your LA private school education served you with regards to US geography. (This applies to you too, implacable, who claimed that TX has 4 million, way behind Florida's 17.5 million) Redneckn, you at least got it right with Texas being in the top ten, although you didn't have enough brains to call BS on Implaccables figures.

According to the US census, Texas had a population of roughly 28,850,000 ranking 2nd behind only CA. We have only grown since then.

Good night, if this is what private schools in LA produce I would hate to see public schools. Like that old song, (Can't remember the title.....

"We got good ole' boys from LSU.... Went in dumb, came out dumb too.

Texasfrog
08-31-2005, 12:02 AM
Thats true, but sometimes from what I have learned, you have to take a chance. I do not plan to coach college when I am done, I am going straight back to HS football again when I get done here. A lot of it is because of this process. I like to take what I have and get the best from it, not compete to get what might or might not be the best. Who was this kid you are talking about? If you dont want to say thats fine.




I know a college coach (Head Coach at D-1A school) that wont offer a kid a "ship" until his seen two full game films on him.

I've seen him break that one time. He watched about 4 plays of a certain one kid and told the scout that covered that area to "offer" the kid.

He also looked right at me after that and said, " You have to be careful because you only have so many of those things "ships" to give away."[/QUOTE]

I would rather not say the kids name because I know the Coach and the kid (some) at least.

I'll tell you this. The coach should of probably watched a little more film on the kid. He plays QB and his a senior in college (in Texas) and I think his only started 1 game in his career. His a solid athlete though with a great arm. Just never really put the total package together in college.

Redneckn
08-31-2005, 12:37 AM
Southern Whites. All they do is congregate in rundown trailer parks and cook methamphetamines.

Zippy.. That was what you said. That was why I said you are racist. I didnt just pull that one out of the air.


Firebird. I didnt claim 4 million or any number of anything. That must have been somebody else. I didn't make some number claim because I wasnt ever discussing population numbers. If I had, I would have cited where I got the figures from. I'll have to go back and read to see who said that.


TexasFrog. Where did you get the idea that I have only been in Texas and Louisiana? It kind of funny how you pull these things out of your butt and state them to be fact. No, I have not been to 48 states and 35 countries. I am smart enough to not have to do all that to bring home a paycheck. I chose to move to Texas instead of Washington, Nevada, or Arizona because I figured this will keep my closer to my kids and I can still make a fair living and have plenty of time to screw off when I want to..I had to get out of Louisiana to get some fair money. It is a crappy state to live in. I encourage anybody living there to move as soon as they can.

You wouldn't really want to me to come and talk to you after I did all the travelling around. Because I'd still think you're an *** and you'd still think the same about me.

God doesn't need to help me if ECA loses to anyone. I don't have any money on any games and my kids don't go there. So it would only be a loss. It's a game and somebody has to lose. I don't have any big dreams of ECA winning all 3 of the real games they have this year. I would like to see them win, but I won't die if they lose.
Besides, I'm not on here saying how I think they are going to handle everyone they play. In fact, I am pretty sure that I have stated more than once (in other threads) that I expect Longview to beat ECA again this year. And I think I may have even said I expect Springdale to beat them again this year. I don't know that I have commented on TexasHigh beating them or not. So I will go on record here to say that TexasHigh will not beat ECA this year. I wont get to see that game, I have to be in Austin that weekend. So we are going to watch Hutto play.

zippy
08-31-2005, 01:13 AM
Well, I didnt say that, firebird did, so go back and read it more better ;) .Thanks


Zippy.. That was what you said. That was why I said you are racist. I didnt just pull that one out of the air.


Firebird. I didnt claim 4 million or any number of anything. That must have been somebody else. I didn't make some number claim because I wasnt ever discussing population numbers. If I had, I would have cited where I got the figures from. I'll have to go back and read to see who said that.


TexasFrog. Where did you get the idea that I have only been in Texas and Louisiana? It kind of funny how you pull these things out of your butt and state them to be fact. No, I have not been to 48 states and 35 countries. I am smart enough to not have to do all that to bring home a paycheck. I chose to move to Texas instead of Washington, Nevada, or Arizona because I figured this will keep my closer to my kids and I can still make a fair living and have plenty of time to screw off when I want to..I had to get out of Louisiana to get some fair money. It is a crappy state to live in. I encourage anybody living there to move as soon as they can.

You wouldn't really want to me to come and talk to you after I did all the travelling around. Because I'd still think you're an *** and you'd still think the same about me.

God doesn't need to help me if ECA loses to anyone. I don't have any money on any games and my kids don't go there. So it would only be a loss. It's a game and somebody has to lose. I don't have any big dreams of ECA winning all 3 of the real games they have this year. I would like to see them win, but I won't die if they lose.
Besides, I'm not on here saying how I think they are going to handle everyone they play. In fact, I am pretty sure that I have stated more than once (in other threads) that I expect Longview to beat ECA again this year. And I think I may have even said I expect Springdale to beat them again this year. I don't know that I have commented on TexasHigh beating them or not. So I will go on record here to say that TexasHigh will not beat ECA this year. I wont get to see that game, I have to be in Austin that weekend. So we are going to watch Hutto play.

Texasfrog
08-31-2005, 11:18 AM
Zippy.. That was what you said. That was why I said you are racist. I didnt just pull that one out of the air.


Firebird. I didnt claim 4 million or any number of anything. That must have been somebody else. I didn't make some number claim because I wasnt ever discussing population numbers. If I had, I would have cited where I got the figures from. I'll have to go back and read to see who said that.


TexasFrog. Where did you get the idea that I have only been in Texas and Louisiana? It kind of funny how you pull these things out of your butt and state them to be fact. No, I have not been to 48 states and 35 countries. I am smart enough to not have to do all that to bring home a paycheck. I chose to move to Texas instead of Washington, Nevada, or Arizona because I figured this will keep my closer to my kids and I can still make a fair living and have plenty of time to screw off when I want to..I had to get out of Louisiana to get some fair money. It is a crappy state to live in. I encourage anybody living there to move as soon as they can.

You wouldn't really want to me to come and talk to you after I did all the travelling around. Because I'd still think you're an *** and you'd still think the same about me.

God doesn't need to help me if ECA loses to anyone. I don't have any money on any games and my kids don't go there. So it would only be a loss. It's a game and somebody has to lose. I don't have any big dreams of ECA winning all 3 of the real games they have this year. I would like to see them win, but I won't die if they lose.
Besides, I'm not on here saying how I think they are going to handle everyone they play. In fact, I am pretty sure that I have stated more than once (in other threads) that I expect Longview to beat ECA again this year. And I think I may have even said I expect Springdale to beat them again this year. I don't know that I have commented on TexasHigh beating them or not. So I will go on record here to say that TexasHigh will not beat ECA this year. I wont get to see that game, I have to be in Austin that weekend. So we are going to watch Hutto play.

I would just really hate to see what is probably one of Louisiana top #3 teams to a Texas 4A who just got beat by Tyler John Tyler this past week.

Your on record as saying Texas High will lose to ECA. Great, we'll see.

Redneck, honestly I remember the most how you basically said , "The ECA coaches wouldnt let you on the team." I'm really starting to see that through the post. Your probably really werent good enough "A" for ECA standards and your character wasnt what they wanted.

See ya, BROTHER.

I'll be watching the results of Longview vs WM, ECA and Tx High vs ECA and the rest of those Marshall games vs Louisiana teams. I mean come on you have these awesome 3A's Louisiana teams that could beat Leander.