Exaggerated 40 Times

[G-Man]

The NFL treats 40-yard dash times as sacred
Mark Zeigler, STAFF WRITER // April 20, 2005

Copyright 2005 The San Diego Union-Tribune
Visit USA Track & Field



There is no official world record for 40 yards.

The shortest distance that the IAAF, track and field's international governing body, recognizes for world-record purposes is an indoor 50 meters, or about 54 yards. It is 5.56 seconds and it was set by Canadian sprinter Donovan Bailey in 1996. There is also a world record for 60 meters -- 6.39 seconds by American Maurice Greene in 1998.

But it is another Canadian, Ben Johnson, who is believed to have run 40 yards faster than any human in history. Johnson is best known for injecting copious amounts of steroids and winning the 100 meters at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul in 9.79 seconds, only to have his gold medal and world record stripped after failing a post-race drug test.

Timing officials have since broken down that famed race into 10-meter increments, and Johnson was so preposterously fast that he went through 50 meters in 5.52 seconds and 60 meters in 6.37 -- both under the current world records at those distances. He went through 40 yards that day in 4.38 seconds.

He was running in spikes . . . on a warm afternoon perfectly suited for sprinting . . . with a slight tailwind . . . with years of training from arguably track's top coach, Charlie Francis . . . with Carl Lewis and six others of the fastest men on the planet chasing him . . . with 69,000 people roaring at Seoul's Olympic Stadium . . . with hundreds of millions of people watching on TV . . . with the ultimate prize in sports, an Olympic gold medal, at stake.

And, as we learned later, with muscles built with the assistance of the anabolic steroid stanazolol.

Four-point-three-eight seconds.

Then again, maybe Ben Johnson isn't the fastest 40-yard man in the world.

Maybe half the NFL is faster.
____________________________________________

Okay guys, here's the real deal on 40 times. Notice this was NOT done on a FB field in FB cleats in high school offseason or at a "Combine".

[FeeltheHaka]

I know I'll start something with this but: When I was in high school, I ran a
4.6. I was the fastest. I routinely beat guys in a foot race off the field who would claim 4.5, 4.4 etc. I remember hearing Deion Sanders running 4.2. I just don't believe it. I've said this to others, and have been flamed for it. I think 40 yard times are so exaggerated. I've been to other schools where supposedly they had several guys who timed less than 4.5 to find posted on their wall of fame; no one running under 4.6. I don't know what the deal is, but their must be something very wrong with timing of the 40.

[t00 playa]

Cy fair will probably beg to differ:eek:

[drgnbkr]

It's just a subjective measurement used by coaches to evaluate football speed for players. Different coaches time differently, so the times are all over the board. They are important to a player, just as shuttle times, verticle leap, etc., but they don't have a gold medal for it, so it's just a tool.

[t00 playa]

I know I'll start something with this but: When I was in high school, I ran a
4.6. I was the fastest. I routinely beat guys in a foot race off the field who would claim 4.5, 4.4 etc. I remember hearing Deion Sanders running 4.2. I just don't believe it. I've said this to others, and have been flamed for it. I think 40 yard times are so exaggerated. I've been to other schools where supposedly they had several guys who timed less than 4.5 to find posted on their wall of fame; no one running under 4.6. I don't know what the deal is, but their must be something very wrong with timing of the 40.

I agree...:eek:

thats why i always doubt when ppl say they run.. 4.3.. 4.2.. and i think i even used the phrase....."world class sprinter":eek:

[t00 playa]

It's just a subjective measurement used by coaches to evaluate football speed for players. Different coaches time differently, so the times are all over the board. They are important to a player, just as shuttle times, verticle leap, etc., but they don't have a gold medal for it, so it's just a tool.

i agree with this as well.. you have to measure differences in some sort of way.... players can separate themselves from the next guy using these times..but other than that?.. who knows.:eek:

[Fleeman93]

So is it safe to say that this article puts to rest any 4.3 talk by high school kids?

[The Dude]

What I never understand is...what's the real difference between a 4.3 and a 4.6? .3 seconds is almost unmeasureable. Get a stop watch and try to start and stop it on .3 of a second. 1) It's very difficult 2) those tenths of a second are so fast, that hand timing accuracy is often WAY off 3)you'll realize there is pretty much zero difference in those two times. To me, football is about starting and stopping and changing directions. Pro Shuttle and other agility drill times are more "football speed" telling to me than a 40 yard dash. Heck, a 60 yard dash is more accurate than a 40 yard dash anyways if you want to judge straight away speed.

[t00 playa]

What I never understand is...what's the real difference between a 4.3 and a 4.6? .3 seconds is almost unmeasureable. Get a stop watch and try to start and stop it on .3 of a second. 1) It's very difficult 2) those tenths of a second are so fast, that hand timing accuracy is often WAY off 3)you'll realize there is pretty much zero difference in those two times. To me, football is about starting and stopping and changing directions. Pro Shuttle and other agility drill times are more "football speed" telling to me than a 40 yard dash. Heck, a 60 yard dash is more accurate than a 40 yard dash anyways if you want to judge straight away speed.

yup.. it would be hard to tell a 4.4 , 4.3, 4.5 apart if they were running against each other in the 40... to the naked eye.. it would look like a 3 way tie:eek:

[DragonFan]

I believe that the 40 yard dash was the invention of Tom Landry who surmised that most football plays go about 40 yards and it was a good indication of explosiveness off a start and quickness to get to top speed. In a football game a .3 second difference is good for getting around the end or closing on a pass.

[pack0808]

So what about at the NFL combine where they use very accurate types of technology to time them similar to the Olympics? Mcneal was clocked at a 4.31 and a 4.38 at the most recent one.

I agree that most 40 coach times given out from a stop watch are inaccurate or exaggerated but you would think the NFL combine would have some fairly accurate equipment which I have heard they have.

[The Dude]

I'm not debating the laser times at all. All the power to those guys. I just don't always agree with hand timings. I know at Katy we'd take your average of 3 to make it somewhat more accurate since they were hand timed. I understand the philosphy behind the explosiveness related to the 40 yard dash, but I still stand by my stance of agility times are more telling of football speed. How often do you run in a straight line during a play? I've seen numerous guys with blazing 40 times, but awful field speed, and vise versa.

[pack0808]

I'm not debating the laser times at all. All the power to those guys. I just don't always agree with hand timings. I know at Katy we'd take your average of 3 to make it somewhat more accurate since they were hand timed. I understand the philosphy behind the explosiveness related to the 40 yard dash, but I still stand by my stance of agility times are more telling of football speed. How often do you run in a straight line during a play? I've seen numerous guys with blazing 40 times, but awful field speed, and vise versa.


Very true!

[FeeltheHaka]

So what about at the NFL combine where they use very accurate types of technology to time them similar to the Olympics? Mcneal was clocked at a 4.31 and a 4.38 at the most recent one.

I agree that most 40 coach times given out from a stop watch are inaccurate or exaggerated but you would think the NFL combine would have some fairly accurate equipment which I have heard they have.

See, this is what I find fishy. Guys would claim they were timed at 4.4 or some other low time at a combine, but when I would race them; there was no way. I've seen big linemen claim 4.7, and I swear it was more like a 5.2. These are from combines. I know that at some combines guys don't even time at all for one reason or other. I've seen published times from combines of guys I know I could beat. I don't know what the dealio is on this.
I'll agree with what TheDude says about agility being important on the field. At cornerback I would hurt when some guys could stop on a dime on a crossing route. We have all seen guys who have fast 40 times, but when on the field with full pads you can tell they are faster than alot of guys on the field.

[Sakatha]

See, this is what I find fishy. Guys would claim they were timed at 4.4 or some other low time at a combine, but when I would race them; there was no way. I've seen big linemen claim 4.7, and I swear it was more like a 5.2. These are from combines. I know that at some combines guys don't even time at all for one reason or other. I've seen published times from combines of guys I know I could beat. I don't know what the dealio is on this.
I'll agree with what TheDude says about agility being important on the field. At cornerback I would hurt when some guys could stop on a dime on a crossing route. We have all seen guys who have fast 40 times, but when on the field with full pads you can tell they are faster than alot of guys on the field.


UNLESS!!! You REALLY ran a 4.2 and didn't know it!! ;)

~DnM

[KLH75287]

What I never understand is...what's the real difference between a 4.3 and a 4.6? .3 seconds is almost unmeasureable. Get a stop watch and try to start and stop it on .3 of a second. 1) It's very difficult 2) those tenths of a second are so fast, that hand timing accuracy is often WAY off 3)you'll realize there is pretty much zero difference in those two times. To me, football is about starting and stopping and changing directions. Pro Shuttle and other agility drill times are more "football speed" telling to me than a 40 yard dash. Heck, a 60 yard dash is more accurate than a 40 yard dash anyways if you want to judge straight away speed.

It has been proven that hand timing can be as much as .3 off easily. However, if my guy is burning everyone for a TD, you can call it 4.2, 5.5, or whatever you want to.....:o

[pack0808]

See, this is what I find fishy. Guys would claim they were timed at 4.4 or some other low time at a combine, but when I would race them; there was no way. I've seen big linemen claim 4.7, and I swear it was more like a 5.2. These are from combines. I know that at some combines guys don't even time at all for one reason or other. I've seen published times from combines of guys I know I could beat. I don't know what the dealio is on this.
I'll agree with what TheDude says about agility being important on the field. At cornerback I would hurt when some guys could stop on a dime on a crossing route. We have all seen guys who have fast 40 times, but when on the field with full pads you can tell they are faster than alot of guys on the field.


edit

[pack0808]

See, this is what I find fishy. Guys would claim they were timed at 4.4 or some other low time at a combine, but when I would race them; there was no way. I've seen big linemen claim 4.7, and I swear it was more like a 5.2. These are from combines. I know that at some combines guys don't even time at all for one reason or other. I've seen published times from combines of guys I know I could beat. I don't know what the dealio is on this.
I'll agree with what TheDude says about agility being important on the field. At cornerback I would hurt when some guys could stop on a dime on a crossing route. We have all seen guys who have fast 40 times, but when on the field with full pads you can tell they are faster than alot of guys on the field.


It is a fact (several articles) that R Mcneal ran a 4.3 at a NFL combine using laser technology. You can't get much more accurate then that. If you have ever seen reggie break one you would realize that that time is accurate. I have never seen anybody run him down from behind without a major angle.

[bobcatDL07]

im not gona argue im just gona say that mcguffies 40 times have been measured 4.3 with laser if R Mcneal can do it i think Sam can.. and his pro agility at a combine was like 3.8-3.9 one of those so its all tied together into one fast kid

[TIGER]

This comes up at least once per year. The difference is in the start method.
In track the clock starts first with the gun and then the runner reacts to the gun sound and begins to run. In timing for football 40 yd dash the clock starts on the 1st movement of the runner. This makes a big difference in the time.

[rebel27]

So is it safe to say that this article puts to rest any 4.3 talk by high school kids?

why should it end the talk? just because some guy says he ran a "legit" 4.6? what's the difference in him and everyone else?

[WestlandTiger'95]

i agree...BUT there is a big difference in how a sprinter would approach 40 yrds. vs. 100 meters. At 100 mt you have to spread your energy throughout the entire sprint. So maybe the guys like johnson and others could run a faster 40 than the "theory/formula" states. These football players that may be running their 40 in 4.3 would never make to 100 mt at that same speed ....they would probably be burnt out at 60 yrds at that pace and finish the 100 at about 12 seconds. Sprinting is still about conserving your energy throughout the race no matter how short the race.


I am in the boat that says that 40 times are overated ...but they may be more accurate than we think.
Just my 2 cents

[dragonsdaddy]

i agree...BUT there is a big difference in how a sprinter would approach 40 yrds. vs. 100 meters. At 100 mt you have to spread your energy throughout the entire sprint. So maybe the guys like johnson and others could run a faster 40 than the "theory/formula" states. These football players that may be running their 40 in 4.3 would never make to 100 mt at that same speed ....they would probably be burnt out at 60 yrds at that pace and finish the 100 at about 12 seconds. Sprinting is still about conserving your energy throughout the race no matter how short the race.


I am in the boat that says that 40 times are overated ...but they may be more accurate than we think.
Just my 2 cents
i agree. the fastest 40 yd dashers would never win a 100. the explosiveness in the forty doesn't automatically make him , in fact almost precludes him from it, the 100 meter champ.

[KT2000]

This comes up at least once per year. The difference is in the start method.
In track the clock starts first with the gun and then the runner reacts to the gun sound and begins to run. In timing for football 40 yd dash the clock starts on the 1st movement of the runner. This makes a big difference in the time.

Exactly. The average reaction time for someone Ben Johnson's age (27) is between 3 and 4 tenths of a second. The best sprinters' reaction time is between .12-.16 tenths of a second.

So, that means Johnson's 4.38 would have likely lasered somewhere around 4.22-4.26 at an NFL combine given the difference in start method. Also, you have to factor in that this was a 100 meter race so he wasn't at top speed at 40 yards. In other words, the author picked a bad example.

The fastest lasered 40 timing I've ever heard of was a 4.18 by Randy Moss during his rookie season in Minnesota.

[pack0808]

Exactly. The average reaction time for someone Ben Johnson's age (27) is between 3 and 4 tenths of a second. The best sprinters' reaction time is between .12-.16 tenths of a second.

So, that means Johnson's 4.38 would have likely lasered somewhere around 4.22-4.26 at an NFL combine given the difference in start method. Also, you have to factor in that this was a 100 meter race so he wasn't at top speed at 40 yards. In other words, the author picked a bad example.

The fastest lasered 40 timing I've ever heard of was a 4.18 by Randy Moss during his rookie season in Minnesota.


That is insane! :eek: And that was on laser? wow!

[ourgalsal]

One guy says you cannot tell the diference between 4.3, 4.4 and 4.5. Another implies that Reggie Mc Neal was faster than Ben Johnson. Then yet anothe says that in the 100 meters Johnso was not a full speed i at 40 yds when he ran the 100 meters. Was he gonna wait till the end and kick. This shows me there is considerable amount of ignorance, no that may be too strong so I will call it missinformed.

[dada]

You don't "shoot" out of the blocks full speed in the 100.....it's all about form and technique to prepare yourself for the final kick....maybe they should clock the last 40, not the first 40.

[pack0808]

One guy says you cannot tell the diference between 4.3, 4.4 and 4.5. Another implies that Reggie Mc Neal was faster than Ben Johnson. Then yet anothe says that in the 100 meters Johnso was not a full speed i at 40 yds when he ran the 100 meters. Was he gonna wait till the end and kick. This shows me there is considerable amount of ignorance, no that may be too strong so I will call it missinformed.


Who said Reggie Mcneal was faster then Ben Johnson? I simply said he was clocked at a 4.31 and a 4.38 with laser technology at the most recent NFL combine. :rolleyes: That is a fact! Please look up the facts before you say something and try reading kt2000 post to understand the difference from times on the track compared to the football field. Talk about being misinformed and ignorant. ;)

[ourgalsal]

Say what? You don't shoot out of the blocks in the 100?
Did you mean really mean that?

[pack0808]

You don't "shoot" out of the blocks full speed in the 100.....it's all about form and technique to prepare yourself for the final kick....maybe they should clock the last 40, not the first 40.


Apparently ourgalsal does not comprehend that? The bigger one to me is waiting on a gun to shoot compared to just going when you are ready when running the 40. I mean we are talking tenths of seconds here and that would make a huge difference as explained by kt and tiger.

[ourgalsal]

I coached track for 15 and football for 34 so I think I know.

[dragonsdaddy]

Say what? You don't shoot out of the blocks in the 100?
Did you mean really mean that?
hard as it may be to believe, the best starters don't always win the 100, unlike the forty. the 100 requires speed as well as power and the forty is almost as much quickness as speed.

[dragonsdaddy]

i guess you should phrase it that you can't win a hundred with a start, but you can dang sure lose it at the start.

[pack0808]

I coached track for 15 and football for 34 so I think I know.


Yeah so I guess that makes you the all knowing expert then. So your saying that waiting on a gun to shoot before you go compared to just going when you want would not make a significant difference in their time? That is common sense and I do not have to be a track expert to know that. If they timed 40's that way (using a gun) the fastest players in the state would probably be running a 4.5 or a 4.6

[dada]

Say what? You don't shoot out of the blocks in the 100?
Did you mean really mean that?
Exactly what I meant....you don't get into full sprint until after maybe 50....when you're upright and have your form...THEN you kick in and pull away from the pack...how many times have you seen a guy shoot out of the blocks only to be ran down from behind.

[ourgalsal]

But they certainly try to start as fast as possible.

[dada]

But they certainly try to start as fast as possible.
not all the time....I only ran as fast as I had too.....I would then say "Ok...enough of this" and pull away.

[KT2000]

Sprinters are trained to hit top speed at the 40-70 (43.76 yards to 76.58 yards) meter mark of a 100 meter race. The last 30 meters is spent on maintenance and then eventually deceleration as they close in on the finish.

So, Dude was actually quite right that a 60 yard dash would be more indicative of true straight line speed for football players because it takes most athletes between 4-6 seconds to reach top speed. I'm guessing that's why the 40 yd dash is not an Olympic event but 60m and 100m are.

[dada]

PLUS keep in mind....this is also a baf comparison because in the 100 you KNOW you're going 100 so you can afford to start off slow and have time to make it up...you HAVE to be all out in the 40.

[dada]

40 times really don't matter to me anyway....a receiver that runs a 4.9 and knows where he's going is gonna beat a DB who runs a 4.3 and GUESSING where the ball is gonna be every time.(hope I worded that right)

[dragonsdaddy]

40 times really don't matter to me anyway....a receiver that runs a 4.9 and knows where he's going is gonna beat a DB who runs a 4.3 and GUESSING where the ball is gonna be every time.(hope I worded that right)
i'm betting all the db's who bilitnikoff made to look ******** wouldn't want to know what his real 40 time was. the db's speed just made him be more open as they ran the wrong way even faster.

[dada]

i'm betting all the db's who bilitnikoff made to look ******** wouldn't want to know what his real 40 time was. the db's speed just made him be more open as they ran the wrong way even faster.
Exactly...I was about to say the same thing..the ran AWAY from the play faster.


From Wikipedia:
"Many reported times are extremely unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL was 4.29 seconds by Deion Sanders in 1989 [1], although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL combine was 4.30 seconds by cornerback Tye Hill in 2006 [2]. As noted above, most other times are not trustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but it is often claimed that players such as Sanders, DeAngelo Hall, Michael Vick, Bo Jackson, Randy Moss, Darrell Green, Laveranues Coles, have run the 4.1-4.2 range in college workouts.

The absolute fastest time has likely not been run by a football player but by a sprinter in track and field. Although 40 yards is never run, the 60 meter dash is a well-regulated track and field distance, the official record for which is 6.39 seconds by Maurice Greene. Studying tapes of sprinter Ben Johnson's world-record breaking 1988 100 meter dash (which was later annulled due to Johnson's steroid use), however, show that Johnson ran the 60 m in 6.37 seconds, this is considered the most quickly started race ever run [3]. Nonetheless, Johnson "only" covered the first 40 yards in 4.38 seconds. It is highly doubtful that any football player could run 40 yards faster than a world-class sprinter in spikes on a track, casting doubts on many claimed 40 yard times.

However, in track and field races, the runner must react to the starting gun, which can take 0.2-0.3 seconds. For electronically timed 40 yard dashes, the runner is allowed to start when he wishes, which automatically triggers the clock. This difference would indicate that, at peak form, Johnson more likely ran the 40 yard dash in 4.08-4.18 seconds, making claims of 4.2-range 40 times more credible."

[zippy]

All I have to say is that this article is BS, or at the summer camps I work, the lasers are rigged. We do not have time to be using stop watches and recording 3 times to get 1 accurate average time. The laser apppraoch is accurate and you only have to run them 1 time. Now, to the point, I have seen MANY high school kids post sub 4.5 times. I have seen a couple post sub 4.4's. I do know from experience that 50 yards in the 100 meters, most people are at full speed. The next 50 it should be maintained. The world class sprinters are at full speed sooner than most, and they maintain this for a longer distance. This is one of the reasons they are world class. This guy may have been in that range at 40, but what makes him different is he can keep it for the next 60. Several of these kids that I have seen run a sub 4.5 or 4.4 do not have great 100 times. They are just under 11 in most cases. The reason for this is that they can't maintain this speed for another 60 yards. Get it? This is why they are not running at a world class level in the 100. They might even beat some of the world class sprinters for the first 40, but there is 60 yards left and they can't maintain it. I ran a 4.4 in high school, but in the 100 I was not that good. I could not keep that pace for another 20 yards, much less 60. If you really want to get an understanding of this, you need to look at some biomec. literature on sprinters.

[dada]

All I have to say is that this article is BS, or at the summer camps I work, the lasers are rigged. We do not have time to be using stop watches and recording 3 times to get 1 accurate average time. The laser apppraoch is accurate and you only have to run them 1 time. Now, to the point, I have seen MANY high school kids post sub 4.5 times. I have seen a couple post sub 4.4's. I do know from experience that 50 yards in the 100 meters, most people are at full speed. The next 50 it should be maintained. The world class sprinters are at full speed sooner than most, and they maintain this for a longer distance. This is one of the reasons they are world class. This guy may have been in that range at 40, but what makes him different is he can keep it for the next 60. Several of these kids that I have seen run a sub 4.5 or 4.4 do not have great 100 times. They are just under 11 in most cases. The reason for this is that they can't maintain this speed for another 60 yards. Get it? This is why they are not running at a world class level in the 100. They might even beat some of the world class sprinters for the first 40, but there is 60 yards left and they can't maintain it. I ran a 4.4 in high school, but in the 100 I was not that good. I could not keep that pace for another 20 yards, much less 60. If you really want to get an understanding of this, you need to look at some biomec. literature on sprinters.
Depends on who you're running against....if you KNOW you're gonna win, you can use the first 50 to get into form and let up the last 50.....if you're in a REAL race you better get the last 50 as fast as you can.

[ourgalsal]

Pack 0808 you are certainly correct about that. Their is a big difference.
I will say this< I coached guys that ran 9.5, 9.7 and another 10.3 in the meters and I have yet to time one in the 40 faster that was 4.45 and it was with spikes on the grass and they could start when they wanted to and I got movement to start the clock. I also only clocked 4 under 4.5 in all my years. What I am saying is the 40's are greatly exagerated. I do think many coaches misleadkids greatly. I always believed in telling them the truth.

[pack0808]

Pack 0808 you are certainly correct about that. Their is a big difference.
I will say this< I coached guys that ran 9.5, 9.7 and another 10.3 in the meters and I have yet to time one in the 40 faster that was 4.45 and it was with spikes on the grass and they could start when they wanted to and I got movement to start the clock. I also only clocked 4 under 4.5 in all my years. What I am saying is the 40's are greatly exagerated. I do think many coaches misleadkids greatly. I always believed in telling them the truth.


Apparently you have not been to Lufkin lately to time there football teams! ;) I do agree that many coaches exaggerate 40 times or report inaccurate 40 times.

[FeeltheHaka]

All I have to say is that this article is BS, or at the summer camps I work, the lasers are rigged. We do not have time to be using stop watches and recording 3 times to get 1 accurate average time. The laser apppraoch is accurate and you only have to run them 1 time. Now, to the point, I have seen MANY high school kids post sub 4.5 times. I have seen a couple post sub 4.4's. I do know from experience that 50 yards in the 100 meters, most people are at full speed. The next 50 it should be maintained. The world class sprinters are at full speed sooner than most, and they maintain this for a longer distance. This is one of the reasons they are world class. This guy may have been in that range at 40, but what makes him different is he can keep it for the next 60. Several of these kids that I have seen run a sub 4.5 or 4.4 do not have great 100 times. They are just under 11 in most cases. The reason for this is that they can't maintain this speed for another 60 yards. Get it? This is why they are not running at a world class level in the 100. They might even beat some of the world class sprinters for the first 40, but there is 60 yards left and they can't maintain it. I ran a 4.4 in high school, but in the 100 I was not that good. I could not keep that pace for another 20 yards, much less 60. If you really want to get an understanding of this, you need to look at some biomec. literature on sprinters.

Personally, I trust lasers as much as I trust Traffic Cops when they are using them. Alot of times, they just want to see if you have drugs. There are so many factors that can affect laser times as well.
This thread has been fun. I am going to save some of these posts for others to look at when I get into a debate with them.
I can tell you from having run the 100M. There is more to running that 100 meters than what people think. Every step is scrutinized, and the mental game is huge as well.

[dada]

Personally, I trust lasers as much as I trust Traffic Cops when they are using them. Alot of times, they just want to see if you have drugs. There are so many factors that can affect laser times as well.
This thread has been fun. I am going to save some of these posts for others to look at when I get into a debate with them.
I can tell you from having run the 100M. There is more to running that 100 meters than what people think. Every step is scrutinized, and the mental game is huge as well.
Yeah most people think a group of guys just line up and say "GO" and take off as fast as they can.......which is EXACTLY what they do in the 40.

[The Dude]

coached kids that ran 9.5 and 9.7s? Where are these kids now? USA Track and Field needs to get ahold of them!

[zippy]

The more I read this, the more I would like to get my hands on this data. If you do some basic breakdown on this, it just does not add up.

OK. They said he clocked a 9.79 second 100. This is an average of .979 per 10 meters or a 3.916 40. Now we all know that you cant start at full speed, so you have to go to further calculations. They said he was at 4.38 at 40, 5.52 at 50, and 6.37 at the 60 mark.

Average 10 meter times

40- 4.38 or 1.09 per 10
50- 5.52 or 1.10 per 10
60- 6.37 or 1.06 per 10
100 - 9.79 or .979 per 10

You can tell by this that this individual gained a huge amount later in the run (steroids will do this), after the 50 mark. Some of the top sprinters not on roids will gain & maintain sooner than this. This in turn will lead to a slower 40 time. Not that a 4.38 is slow by any means, but I am sure.... I know, there are people that can post this 40 time, but that will not get close to the 9.79 100 mark.

[dada]

The more I read this, the more I would like to get my hands on this data. If you do some basic breakdown on this, it just does not add up.

OK. They said he clocked a 9.79 second 100. This is an average of .979 per 10 meters or a 3.916 40. Now we all know that you cant start at full speed, so you have to go to further calculations. They said he was at 4.38 at 40, 5.52 at 50, and 6.37 at the 60 mark.

Average 10 meter times

40- 4.38 or 1.09 per 10
50- 5.52 or 1.10 per 10
60- 6.37 or 1.06 per 10
100 - 9.79 or .979 per 10

You can tell by this that this individual gained a huge amount later in the run (steroids will do this), after the 50 mark. Some of the top sprinters not on roids will gain & maintain sooner than this. This in turn will lead to a slower 40 time. Not that a 4.38 is slow by any means, but I am sure.... I know, there are people that can post this 40 time, but that will not get close to the 9.79 100 mark.
Nerds! Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!
Just Kidding....I like the way you broke that down

[ourgalsal]

The 9.5 and 9.7 were in the 100 yd. dash. The 9.5 was second in state and the 9.7 was second in the 220 dash. cousins who were great long jumpers.

[dragonsdaddy]

Nerds! Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!
Just Kidding....I like the way you broke that down
this puts him running the last 40 in 3.44, or .86 per ten meters. that's flying however you cut it.

[dada]

The 9.5 and 9.7 were in the 100 yd. dash. The 9.5 was second in state and the 9.7 was second in the 220 dash. cousins who were great long jumpers.
You may have to explain that times will be different in the 100 YARD dash and the 100 METER dash.

[FeeltheHaka]

Pack 0808 you are certainly correct about that. Their is a big difference.
I will say this< I coached guys that ran 9.5, 9.7 and another 10.3 in the meters and I have yet to time one in the 40 faster that was 4.45 and it was with spikes on the grass and they could start when they wanted to and I got movement to start the clock. I also only clocked 4 under 4.5 in all my years. What I am saying is the 40's are greatly exagerated. I do think many coaches misleadkids greatly. I always believed in telling them the truth.

I think this is a great point. Alot of variables in football and running are mental. A coach might want to improve a players confidence by exagerrating. And I thought it was exagerrating by the runner!

[The Dude]

I understand the difference in yards and meters, just in his original post he said they ran 9.5 and 9.7 in the meters. So I assumed 100m Dash, which would be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on this board

[dada]

I think this is a great point. Alot of variables in football and running are mental. A coach might want to improve a players confidence by exagerrating. And I thought it was exagerrating by the runner!
or exaggerate to get scouts attention.

[dada]

I understand the difference in yards and meters, just in his original post he said they ran 9.5 and 9.7 in the meters. So I assumed 100m Dash, which would be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on this board
Yeah....I had to do a double take myself.....that's world class speed...lol

[zippy]

Pack 0808 you are certainly correct about that. Their is a big difference.
I will say this< I coached guys that ran 9.5, 9.7 and another 10.3 in the meters and I have yet to time one in the 40 faster that was 4.45 and it was with spikes on the grass and they could start when they wanted to and I got movement to start the clock. I also only clocked 4 under 4.5 in all my years. What I am saying is the 40's are greatly exagerated. I do think many coaches misleadkids greatly. I always believed in telling them the truth.

Ok, I now know you are not truthfull with us. Even if you really did have 9.5, 9.7 times and you were a track coach, why would you have them run 40's?
Even if you coached Justin Gatlin & Asafa Powell you still would not have got a 9.7 time, for sure not a 9.5. I work the state meet from time to time when I get a chance, and I have yet to see a high school kid time below a 10. A 10.4-10.5 wins it about every year in any classification. A 10.13 is the state record (and National Record) at the current time for a high school kid. Its been that since 1986. You might want to measure the track you were using, because it sounds like its 10 meters short.

[zippy]

this puts him running the last 40 in 3.44, or .86 per ten meters. that's flying however you cut it.

Thats what Im saying. Roid burst I guess.

[dragonsdaddy]

Ok, I now know you are not truthfull with us. Even if you really did have 9.5, 9.7 times and you were a track coach, why would you have them run 40's?
Even if you coached Justin Gatlin & Asafa Powell you still would not have got a 9.7 time, for sure not a 9.5. I work the state meet from time to time when I get a chance, and I have yet to see a high school kid time below a 10. A 10.4-10.5 wins it about every year in any classification. A 10.13 is the state record (and National Record) at the current time for a high school kid. Its been that since 1986. You might want to measure the track you were using, because it sounds like its 10 meters short.
she retracted the meters for yards up above.

[zippy]

The 9.5 and 9.7 were in the 100 yd. dash. The 9.5 was second in state and the 9.7 was second in the 220 dash. cousins who were great long jumpers.

Oh, sorry, I though we were talking meters here. Still, why were you timing 40's on your sprinters?

[zippy]

she retracted the meters for yards up above.

Thank god.

[Gridiron Gopher]

What I never understand is...what's the real difference between a 4.3 and a 4.6? .3 seconds is almost unmeasureable. Get a stop watch and try to start and stop it on .3 of a second. 1) It's very difficult 2) those tenths of a second are so fast, that hand timing accuracy is often WAY off 3)you'll realize there is pretty much zero difference in those two times. To me, football is about starting and stopping and changing directions. Pro Shuttle and other agility drill times are more "football speed" telling to me than a 40 yard dash. Heck, a 60 yard dash is more accurate than a 40 yard dash anyways if you want to judge straight away speed.

If you talk to some college coaches, the shuttle times are what they are looking for on defense. My son ran a 4.009 shuttle at the Texas camp this summer and it was the buzz that whole morning. They made him run a second run to make sure and he backed it up with a 4.100.
Some of the times will vary based on who's doing it and sometimes camp from camp. The electronic times are more acurate and I have seen about a .25 difference in times when we go camps that are electronicly timed.

[dada]

How often will a player run a straigh line 40 yards in a game?

[Rerun]

What I never understand is...what's the real difference between a 4.3 and a 4.6? .3 seconds is almost unmeasureable. Get a stop watch and try to start and stop it on .3 of a second. 1) It's very difficult 2) those tenths of a second are so fast, that hand timing accuracy is often WAY off 3)you'll realize there is pretty much zero difference in those two times. To me, football is about starting and stopping and changing directions. Pro Shuttle and other agility drill times are more "football speed" telling to me than a 40 yard dash. Heck, a 60 yard dash is more accurate than a 40 yard dash anyways if you want to judge straight away speed.

http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/fish_360_040513.jpg
http://www.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/slideshows/show_271/3.jpg

[ourgalsal]

Because it was after the state track meet and I was timing all the football players in late May. I asked the 9.5 kid to run even though he was a senior and not a football prospect. Let me also make it clear so not to mislead that at this time I was the head football coach and not the head track coach. Also at this time i had a 4.75 QB who couldn,t break 11.2 to save his life. Also let it be clear that I had dome awful good teams but none with the speed of Lufkin. My two great teams had no one under 4.54.

[ourgalsal]

The difference between 4.5 and 4.6 is a touchdown.

[zippy]

How often will a player run a straigh line 40 yards in a game?

Its not really that important, but its a good tool for the new players. If you have 2 guys that are built the same (6' 170) but one runs a 4.7 and the other runs a 4.4. You at least know not to try the 4.7 guy at corner. He will end up getting burned a lot. You might want to send him to the defensive end coach and take the 4.4 guy. It just saves time. At the end of two-a-days, the 4.4 guy might be on the bench, and the 4.7 guy might be your SS. These times do not take into account the quickness, reaction time, BRAINS, strength, endurance and a host of other needed qualities. They are just good to get an idea, and they do save time. Its a lot better than asking "who wants to play where". In this case you will have 20 QB's 25 RB's, and 30 WR's.

[dada]

Its not really that important, but its a good tool for the new players. If you have 2 guys that are built the same (6' 170) but one runs a 4.7 and the other runs a 4.4. You at least know not to try the 4.7 guy at corner. He will end up getting burned a lot. You might want to send him to the defensive end coach and take the 4.4 guy. It just saves time. At the end of two-a-days, the 4.4 guy might be on the bench, and the 4.7 guy might be your SS. These times do not take into account the quickness, reaction time, BRAINS, strength, endurance and a host of other needed qualities. They are just good to get an idea, and they do save time. Its a lot better than asking "who wants to play where". In this case you will have 20 QB's 25 RB's, and 30 WR's.
Soooo A 4.9 guy can't play RB?? where are the PC police???? lol...just kidding....the NFL's all-time rusher was a 4.7 guy.....so was the NFL's all-time receiver...if you wan't to make the 40 times more relevant....run them in full pads.

[zippy]

Because it was after the state track meet and I was timing all the football players in late May. I asked the 9.5 kid to run even though he was a senior and not a football prospect. Let me also make it clear so not to mislead that at this time I was the head football coach and not the head track coach. Also at this time i had a 4.75 QB who couldn,t break 11.2 to save his life. Also let it be clear that I had dome awful good teams but none with the speed of Lufkin. My two great teams had no one under 4.54.

Makes more sense now. I misread anyway. I assumed you were talking meters, and that you only coached track. I have seen many very good teams that do not have many players better than a 4.5. Other qualities make up for this, and I would much rather have them anyway.

[zippy]

Soooo A 4.9 guy can't play RB?? where are the PC police???? lol...just kidding....the NFL's all-time rusher was a 4.7 guy.....so was the NFL's all-time receiver...if you wan't to make the 40 times more relevant....run them in full pads.

You give me that "NFL" build (5'11" 225 5% body fat) on a high school team and I will not care if he runs a 5.2. He is getting a shot at RB! Like I said, if they have the other qualities, it does not really matter that much. Pads do make a huge difference too.

[ourgalsal]

Thanks, and not to be a smart *** but it never occured to me that anyone would assume i was talking meters at 9.5

[dada]

Thanks, and not to be a smart *** but it never occured to me that anyone would assume i was talking meters at 9.5
You would be amazed at some of the posters that come on here and tell us they know guys who run 10 flats backwards with rain boots on.

[ourgalsal]

i learned a long time ago that how fast you played the game was very important. Some 4.6 guys play at 4.8.

[ourgalsal]

Are you ready for a believe it or not? I saw Darrell Green run a 440 with hi top tennis shoes, unlaced jog and run backwards part of the quarter waving at the other backs and receivers to come on and he finished in 49.1. This was in August before his third yr. of college.

[4th & short]

If my player thinks he will play football better if he runs a 4.4 the guess what he is going to run if I time him? We might have an entire team that runs a 4.4, but they will play with a lot of confidence.

[CoppellDad]

I think if you break down the time into 10 Yard segments, and look at the distance based upon this you will see a big difference in a 4.3 to a 4.6 time. No matter how you time it, if the players are lined up side by side, and they are .3 seconds apart at 40 yards, it is a big difference.

For the sake of simplifying the math, running a 4.0 flat means you are running 10 yards every second. That make 1-yard every .1 second. So if you have .3 seconds difference it will be a little over 2-yards between a 4.3 and 4.6 runner after 40 yards.

That difference between a wide receiver and a corner/safety on a long pass play is that the defender would not be close enough to catch or even impact the play.

dont know if my math is right, since I didnt break out a calculator. I am sure there are other factors, like different rates of acceleration, and such, but basically I think my math makes sense.

[ourgalsal]

4th and short. Yes, any when it comes scholarship time and then you try to explain to the kid and and his dad that he is too slow you have a real problem with your credibility.

[texasboy]

yeah the nfl has some of the fastest guys for the 40yd dash exaggerrated i dont know about that because everyone thought larry allen couldnt bench 700lbs untill he got on tv and did it well espn showed him doing it, so why would they exaggerate 40 times?? doesnt make since at all. i think those guys are as fast as the clock shows them

[KT2000]

I believe this is what they call football speed or "going plaid" for our Space Balls fans out there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6kMpJjsDg0

:D :eek: :eek: :eek:

[bobcatDL07]

All I have to say is that this article is BS, or at the summer camps I work, the lasers are rigged. We do not have time to be using stop watches and recording 3 times to get 1 accurate average time. The laser apppraoch is accurate and you only have to run them 1 time. Now, to the point, I have seen MANY high school kids post sub 4.5 times. I have seen a couple post sub 4.4's. I do know from experience that 50 yards in the 100 meters, most people are at full speed. The next 50 it should be maintained. The world class sprinters are at full speed sooner than most, and they maintain this for a longer distance. This is one of the reasons they are world class. This guy may have been in that range at 40, but what makes him different is he can keep it for the next 60. Several of these kids that I have seen run a sub 4.5 or 4.4 do not have great 100 times. They are just under 11 in most cases. The reason for this is that they can't maintain this speed for another 60 yards. Get it? This is why they are not running at a world class level in the 100. They might even beat some of the world class sprinters for the first 40, but there is 60 yards left and they can't maintain it. I ran a 4.4 in high school, but in the 100 I was not that good. I could not keep that pace for another 20 yards, much less 60. If you really want to get an understanding of this, you need to look at some biomec. literature on sprinters.
exactly what i tried explaining in another thread... just because someone is blazing fast in the 40 doesnt mean they are gona win the world record in the 100

[KT2000]

When straight line speed is important...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOenYotVVG8&mode=related&search=

[bigtexx]

well thats why alot of highschool use lazer timing now instaed of handtimes


i have seen alot of football games this year about 18 and the fastest quickest guys ive seen so far is.......fastest forget the name #31 for the woodlands and quickest ja'corey turner from lufkin ..... just my opinion

[tigerdback083]

I run a 4.0